Brief History of Aptera Motors Incorporated

[admin]

For those of you who don't know much about this fantastic company, Aptera Motors Incorporated first made the news in January of 2006 while still under the name Accelerated Composites. Originally the company said that their future vehicle would get approximately 330 miles per gallon (mpg) at 65 miles per hour.

In 2007 at the TED Conference, Aptera released the Mk-0 prototype which was not quite as efficient at their original plans. the Mk-0 achieved 230 MPG at 55 MPH. At around the same time as the TED conference, the company changed it's name from Accelerated Composites to Aptera Motors Incorporated.

Currently the estimated date for the production their final vehicle the "Typ-1" is due for October of 2008 and should achieve 300 MPG.

[Yanquetino]

Uh... I don't think that the model released in October 2008 will "achieve 300 MPG." It is the Typ-1e (electric), so it won't use a drop of gasoline --let alone a gallon. The Typ-1h (hybrid) is the model that will reportedly get 300 MPG --but it isn't supposed to go on sale until 2009.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about this!

[Holander]

I personally believe that the Typ1-h will be the one that sells. All electric really isn't all that practical for everyday use.

[Yanquetino]

Holander: Well... I disagree. I think that the Typ-1e would actually be best for everyday use (commuting, shopping, errands, etc.) --at least according to current statistics:

http://www.pluginamerica.com/images/driving_habits_graph.jpg

As this graph illustrates, only about 2% of us drive the full 120 mile range of the Typ-1e on a daily basis. That means for 98% of the population it would more than fullfill our needs! Of course, if the Typ-1e's range could be upped a bit more to, say, 150 or 180 or even 200 miles... hey, all the better!

The problem, of course, is when we have needs beyond our "everyday use." That's why I purport we ultimately need hybrid garages instead of one-size-fits-all hybrid vehicles: a pure electric car for the daily driving and a "workhorse" for those few times when we take cross-country trips, tow a trailer, haul heavy junk, or drive through blizzards, etc.

[KarenRei]

I don't know why my solution wouldn't work for your typical person: unless the Aptera is your first car, you already have another car. Probably an older vehicle, so not much trade-in value. Might as well just keep the car, save yourself the 3 grand, do the 98% of your driving that's within the Typ-1e's range, and on the rare occasions you need more range, use your other car.

If Aptera is nice and offers us options, by the time they're filling orders, two or three types of fast charge batteries will have been on the market for a good while: AltarNano's, Toshiba's SCiB, and EEStor's EESU. It would be very, very kind of them to give us an option to choose them over the lithium phosphate that they're currently leaning towards. Lithium phosphate is nice, but it's not a 5-10 minute charge. And I know that most places currently couldn't handle that kind of current, but we don't need that kind of current in our houses; we need it in charging stations on the highways, like Project Better Place plans to build. Who cares if you only have 100 mile range, 80 mile range, or even 60 mile range, so long as you can recharge quickly in transit.

And yes, I know this means lower gauge wiring in some places and possibly a cooling fan, which means a little more expense and a few extra pounds. But please at least make it an option, Aptera :)

[cogito]

I charge lithium nano-phosphate (A123) batteries at 10C (<10 min charge) and I have hundreds of charges with no noticeable degradation. I read about guys that charge their A123 batteries as high as 20C and have thousands of charges. (although they report degradation in the 10% range.)

[KarenRei]

If the A123 batteries can handle a fast charge, then I suppose they'd be good enough :) I didn't realize that you could charge the A123 batteries that quickly. If that's what Aptera uses, all that'd matter, then, is that the wiring be able to handle the amperage. I just want to be ready when charging stations start popping up the way E85 stations have. I mean, Project Better Place has already raised $200M. That's not chump change. And I doubt they're going to be the only ones out there with charging stations. I have a feeling that, due to the low cost of charging electric vehicles, it might become a selling point for places trying to draw in traffic for other reasons -- sort of like how some places offer free wi-fi. Where there's a demand, the market would be daft not to try and meet it, and when all you need to meet it is a good power connection...

[Yanquetino]

I often state that, rather than hybrid vehicles, what we should aim for are “hybrid garages,” i.e., a pure EV for, say, 80% of our driving (commuting, errands, shopping, taking kids to school, etc.) and a “workhorse” vehicle for the other 20% (cross-country trips, towing, hauling, snow, etc.). This is why I prefer the Aptera Typ-1e model.

To illustrate my point, I decided to try and calculate a quick-and-dirty comparison of the costs in our household over a year’s time with an ICE (ugh!), a PHEV (like a Volt, with a 40 mile EV range before the ICE fires up), and an EV+ICE “hybrid garage” (a 120 mile range Typ-1e plus our current “workhorse” Subaru Outback that gets 22 mpg).

The calculations cover our fairly long commute together to work (104 miles round-trip, but we only go to the office 2-to-3 times per week), several “snow days” per year, three vacations towing our sailboat to our favorite lakes (could a PHEV even tow her?), two trips to visit the in-laws in Sacramento, local driving during those visits in California, at least one “date” per week in the nearest city (50 miles round-trip), and sundry other short trips on a weekly basis.

This is what it would cost us per year for gasoline (about 15 cents per mile) and electricity (about 2 cents per mile):
:( ICE = $2,617
:) PHEV = $1,382
:D EV+ICE = $827
You can see why, at least in our case, a hybrid garage makes much more sense. And these calculations only add up the dollars: I haven’t yet tallied the differences in terms of our carbon footprint. Moreover, I haven't included the savings from installing solar panels to charge the EV either --which I fully intend to do.

I know that people think they need an “extended-range” vehicle like the Typ-1h, but I purport that if they would just do the calculations… they would clearly see that keeping their ICE as a “workhorse,” but buying a Typ-1e for their everyday driving, would prove a much better alternative in the long run --not only for their pocketbook, but also for the environment!

[KarenRei]

I think what you mean by "hybrid garage" is what we out here call a "car co-op" -- am I mistaken? In a car co-op, there's a single car who's purchase and maintenance costs are maintaned by everyone who is a member of the co-op, and anyone can check out the car to use at a certain time if they need to.

Of course, with the amount you could save by going with Typ-1e instead of Typ-1h, plus the extra savings from using more electricity and less gasoline, you could outright *rent* cars for most of your out-of-range needs each year and still come out ahead. And you wouldn't have to worry about maintaining the vehicles then, either, and you'd always have the type of vehicle you needed for the type of trip you were going on (car for a normal trip, truck when hauling things, van for a lot of people, etc).

[Yanquetino]

KarenRei:

Yeah, you're right that, for many folks' long-distance needs, they could rent a "workhorse" vehicle, and thus only require a personal EV for everday use. I was thinking more of those who have double-garages in their homes, and likely two vehicles. (They say the "average" household in the USA now has 2.5 cars!) In their case, making the "garage" hybrid makes sense.

For example, we have a perfectly good Subaru "workhorse." Until it gives up the ghost entirely, we might as well use it for times when an EV just won't cut it. Also, if it is a matter of driving in an occasional blizzard... well, it's kinda hard to rent a vehicle on the spur-of-the-moment, when you wake up to find a foot of snow on your deck (like we did this morning). :(

[RoxChkPlusOny]

If you have upfront money:

EV+PHEV < $827

:-D

[Yanquetino]

RoxChkPlusOny: Yeah, you're right! Too bad I don't have that kinda money up front. And if I did, I think that I'd rather put it into solar panels and/or wind generators anyway. Do you think a PHEV (like the Volt) could tow a 2200 lb. sailboat? Probably not for many year to come. :(

[RoxChkPlusOny]

I'm honestly not too excited about that Volt. Looks to me GM could have done a lot better with the battery technology. And no, towing a ton is just not gonna happen. That Tesla Roadster, on the other hand... :)

[KarenRei]

And what's up with the Volt's styling (or, rather, the styling of almost every new car prototype you see these days)? They all have ridiculously short windows and an engine compartment that's way too tall:

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/01/volt.jpg
http://cms.usautoparts.net/includes/images/The_Auto_Blog/0603_chevrolet_camaro_01_445.jpg
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/2005-talk/15766d1144622430-at-2006-dallas-auto-show-img_1451.jpg
http://www.da-up.com/images/2006 Auto Show.JPG
http://thingsyoushoulddo.com/wp2/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/north-american-international-auto-show.jpg
http://www.gtcars.ca/images/North-American-International-Auto-Show07/detroit-auto-show-2007-7-001.jpg
http://bp3.blogger.com/_CVOr0TtSP9k/Rim_yUAb4jI/AAAAAAAAEX0/7SEPLLVID9M/s400/Great_Wall_i7_2007_Shanghai_Auto_Show_1.jpg
http://i.techrepublic.com.com/gallery/61009-500-353.jpg
http://distortionwave.com/Photos/albums/userpics/2007 Auto Show/normal_DSCN1390.JPG
http://lh3.google.com/_72-a4McTVOE/RdeiVGaFFuI/AAAAAAAAFPw/aD5rbVYbv64/s800/IMG_0979.jpg

Are they thinking that this is somehow attractive or desirable? Tiny windows and having to stare across your hood?

[Yanquetino]

KarenRei: I couldn't agree more. Given all the media accolades on the Volt, I was wondering if it was just me. Glad to hear you concur! I think it is one of the ugliest vehicles I have ever seen. Yeah, it's translucent plastic trim is futuristic looking, but --yow! :eek: -- that sneering grill, those chistled angles, that squashed roof! It looks like some test driver already rolled it! The EV1 from a decade ago is still much better looking! For the life of me, I can't imagine why GM doesn't just resurrect it with lithium ion and call it an EV2. They'd sell like hotcakes! They just don't get a clue.

As for Tesla, the original visionary, co-founder, and CEO, Martin Eberhard, did a fantastic job with that car. There was a time when I might have taken out a second mortgage to own one. However, since "Edison" Musk fired him, I have completely soured on it. The last straw was a couple of weeks ago when he also fired long-time EV champion Wally Rippel, of all people, along with dozens of others. And just last night I noticed that the other co-founder and VP of Engineering, Marc Tarpenning, and the VP of Vehicle Engineering, Malcolm Smith, are also gone. This means that, in a mere six months, the original executive team of 12, with 9 VPs, has been slashed to 6: the new CEO, 2 remaining VPs, the CTO, an accountant, and... a lawyer!!! Geeeeezus. It is so sad. :(

"Edison" just doesn't get it: EV advocates are the kind of people who are turned off by such "business as usual." That very type of cold-hearted corporate mentality is what got us addicted to oil in the first place --and crushed all the EV1s! :mad:

Let's hope that Steve and the folks at IdealLab are all a cut above such behavior.

[Matthijs]

For the life of me, I can't imagine why GM doesn't just resurrect it with lithium ion and call it an EV2. They'd sell like hotcakes! They just don't get a clue......

That very type of cold-hearted corporate mentality is what got us addicted to oil in the first place --and crushed all the EV1s! :mad:

Let's hope that Steve and the folks at IdealLab are all a cut above such behavior.

You must take a look @ the youtube channel of Doug Korthof. He was a former EV1 driver and now owns 2 RAV4EV(er) cars. I am also memeber of his yahoo group. He also appeared on the movie "Who killed the Electric Car". I think we all share the same opininion on GM and the EV1.

http://www.youtube.com/user/liveoilfree
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/electric_vehicles_for_sale

[qpham63]

In my mid 40s and have been driving since 16, I have gone through a lot of cars. I have put on a lot of miles in my driving years and even when gas was $.69/gal...yes, I have lived long enough to experience gas like that...The Aptera is stating 120 miles range...

That is entirely believable and is much more than 90% of the commutes out there. Unless you are single and live by yourself, why would you even need a second car? That is an extra vehicle to maintain and insure. Rent one when you leave town.

I used to live in one city in the country work in another city, my wife run a business in yet another city and even when I do the big triangle 1-1/2 times a day, I barely broke the 100 mile per day. I also work 9/80 so I am at work for a minimum of 9.5 hours ...Plenty of time to throw this thing on charge. I don't know about you but I do get my 6 hours of sleep so twice a day, my Aptera would get on the charger for an extended range of time.

I am in a two car family and right now, we have moved to make things more reasonable. We are 1/4 mile from my wife's business and 1.5 mile from my son's school. I am the only one that has a real commute. I work at my job 18 miles away, I co-own a business with a partner that is 6 miles away from home and is on the way to my day job. Max I put on my car anymore a day is 55 miles although last weekend, I drove from Lodi to San Diego to visit my 92 years old father then to visit Aptera Motors Inc. and a quick stop at the Wild Animal Park to pick up my son as I was not sure Aptera would allow him in at 8 years old...in all, last weekend (include Monday) we burned a few dinosaurs, we racked up over 1100 miles...Do you know that could have been about $30 of fuel instead of $160?

I would have many many more :)s per gallon that is for sure. For those of you who are skeptical, please take the next few days and log your mileage...do you even go 1/2 the range of the all electric? Be truthful now.:rolleyes:

This is what I built for my 36 mile round trip commute (www.sbii.blogspot.com).

This Trike is assisted by a 500W, 24V DC motor with 24V-20AH Li-ION pack that weighs 9.8 lbs. I average about 18 miles/hr (get to work in about 1 hour) and I have never depleted the pack beyond 50%...I have a 2A charger. I timed what it takes to get back to full charge and it usually less than 3 hours, closer to 2 hours.

I like it it is fun, my son thinks it is the sweetest thing since HALO (no he does not get to play it just watch his uncle play it) until he saw the picture of the Aptera.

[Chupacabra]

For those with an actual garage, a hybrid garage would be really cool. Condo owners (like me) and apartment renters may not necessarily have that option. Right now I'm kind of stuck with this crappy market, and can't sell my condo to buy a place with a garage. So I'm looking at getting the Type-1H and getting 130MPG since I won't plug it in til I sell & move. But yeah, if I could charge overnight I would get an EV and then keep a beater to drive when I needed to for utility or long distance. This is also kind of an infrastructure issue, they COULD be installing electrical outlets in carports and other places. They'd need locks to prevent someone stealing energy or de-coupling your car when its charging overnight though.

The Volt and cars like it just look like chopped hotrods, or thats the effect they're going for. I kind of dig it, its a cool look - but I don't know how it effects visibility. You can see that kind of styling in the movie the 5th element, and some other futuristic movies..

[qpham63]

For those with an actual garage, a hybrid garage would be really cool. Condo owners (like me) and apartment renters may not necessarily have that option. Right now I'm kind of stuck with this crappy market, and can't sell my condo to buy a place with a garage. So I'm looking at getting the Type-1H and getting 130MPG since I won't plug it in til I sell & move. But yeah, if I could charge overnight I would get an EV and then keep a beater to drive when I needed to for utility or long distance. This is also kind of an infrastructure issue, they COULD be installing electrical outlets in carports and other places. They'd need locks to prevent someone stealing energy or de-coupling your car when its charging overnight though.

I have looked at most parking lot lights. They normally have a coverplate that hides the internal wiring. I am sure that the lines can be tapped in to provide an electrical outlet at least for 110V. I use to ride around on an electric assisted recumbent powered by sealed lead acid batteries that has very low energy storage density and need to have opportunity charge to extend its life. Most already have outdoor type outlets and I simply lean my bike up to one and plug in.:)

You may want to look around at your parking lot to see whether you can tap in anywhere and if not look for the tell tell sign of an electrical cover plate that tell you the line can be tapped into. You would want to check with management to see what is the voltage or amperage is available and if the line can be tapped into. I am sure if you propose to pay for the electricity used as well as get the outlet installed by a licensed electrician and also provide a way to lock access while not in use that your management would not refuse access to the electricity.:)

Here is an idea, there are parking meters everywhere and they are digital and can accept credit card and debit card payment. They are powered some how. I wonder what it would cost when these parking meter are upgraded they can be made to provide powered. That would be great incentive especially for the larger denser metropolis.

What about parking garages for those who work in say downtown San Francisco? Ask for this type of set up and get charged while you are at work...Normal work day is going to be at least 8 hours of charge time right? They can recoup their initial investment by charging a modest profit rate on the electricity rate...never mind. I have parked in San Francisco...There is no such thing as a modest profit rate when it come to anything associated with parking.:rolleyes:

Immagine, park, plug in, swipe your card and be on your merry way.

[n_dawg]

How about getting a membership with ZipCar (http://www.zipcar.com/)? Unfortunately they're mostly on college campuses, but if there's sufficient demand I imagine that would change. Just drive your Aptera to the nearest location, then drive the ZipCar to your (far away) destination (preferably while the Aptera charges).

[nytiger]

NiMh would be better for this application. I've seen some NiMH EV types go 10 years without replacement.

Plus when its time to recycle 60% of the orginal cost can be recouped.

[evansm76]

It looks from the thread that "workhorse" is defined as a fully functional car. My commute amounts to a 115 mile roundtrip. The Typ-1e has a 120 mile range, maybe. And that assumes 55 mph, right? So likely the range is less and I currently have no place to plug into at work. Therefore, for me the Typ-1e is not practical; I need a "workhorse."

Regards,
Mark
Corona, Ca
#1681, Typ-1h:aptera:

[KarenRei]

Not sure why there's all this promoting of NiMH, which is inferior technology in virtually every respect.

[nytiger]

Not sure why there's all this promoting of NiMH, which is inferior technology in virtually every respect.

LiIon will no doubt be the battery of choice in the future. NiMh is proven and right now.

Lead times on LiIon could keep EV's from actually being real. By the time you get your battery gas may be $ 2.50 an gallon once more. Or $ 6.00.

I just want to actaully see these EV's get off the ground and used for actual transportation now and not 2, 5, or 10 years from now.

[nytiger]

Vectrix had the right idea. Get off the ground with technology that exists and then upgrade.

www.vectrix.com

They started off with the GP NiMH's now they are upgrading to GP's LiFePO4's.

[Ceazar77]

As Yanquetino's graph depicts, 80% of people drive less the 50 miles per day wich is coverd by the aptera hybrid. My driving style includes a 30 mile round trip commute as well as 1000 mile trips to visit family.

Although a hybrid garage would work for these situations, I would much rather get 120mpg then what is currently available on most vehicles. It's not the drive of the Aptera that is such a break through, but the low drag body.

[KarenRei]

LiIon will no doubt be the battery of choice in the future. NiMh is proven and right now. Lead times on LiIon could keep EV's from actually being real. By the time you get your battery gas may be $ 2.50 an gallon once more. Or $ 6.00.

What lead times? You can get them now just fine. And Aptera is doing just that.