Aptera copycat from ZAP

[aptera08]

"Joint venture Chairman Albert Lam, former CEO of Lotus Engineering, says the 100 mph, 150-mile range, electric vehicle design could go into production by 2nd quarter 2009 with a targeted price of $30,000." - http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/zap-china-young.html

http://bioage.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/22/tn398403_zapaliaselectriccarvehicle.jpg

[Matthijs]

http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-cars/zap-alias
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/09/08/dont-hold-your-breat-for-a-zap-alias-in-2008/

wnpRCgV7IJo

[LQUAN]

ZAP has been around for a long time. I've first seen their electric 3-wheeler at an autoshow in Los Angeles back in 1989. That 1989 electric 3-wheeler looked very much the same configuration as the Aptera - 2 front seats and space behind the seat for junks. It was called Zebra II if I may recall. I wonder why I have never seen any of ZAP vehicles on the road. I hope Aptera won't be just a hype like the Zebra II back then.

[KarenRei]

" I wonder why I have never seen any of ZAP vehicles on the road."

From Wikipedia:

"The top speed of the Xebra is 40 mph (65 km/h), with a range of about twenty five miles with the standard batteries, or forty miles (64 km) with the optional extended range batteries."

Also:

"Weight about 1800 lbs
Motor: 5 kW (6.7 hp)
Batteries: six lead-acid sealed gel 12-volts ... 100 amp hours ... More energetic batteries up to about 138 amp-hours"

'Nuff said. Nobody likes NEVs. Why pay car prices for what's effectively a golf cart? And wow, what pathetic performance. 5kW motor for an 1800 lb vehicle? That's more weight than the Aptera with a motor a third as strong. That's "lawnmower motor" strength. And that's 1.2 - 1.7 kWh, compared to the Aptera's 10 kWh.

I find a good rule of thumb on how successful an electric car is this: Does it use lead acid batteries? If the answer is "Yes", then the result is "Flop". Zenn, for example, is also having very disappointing sales.

[qpham63]

ZAP has been around for a long time. I've first seen their electric 3-wheeler at an autoshow in Los Angeles back in 1989. That 1989 electric 3-wheeler looked very much the same configuration as the Aptera - 2 front seats and space behind the seat for junks. It was called Zebra II if I may recall. I wonder why I have never seen any of ZAP vehicles on the road. I hope Aptera won't be just a hype like the Zebra II back then.

It is actually spelled xebra I believe if we are talking about the same car. Look for it at www.zapworld.com. If that is so, then Karen is right that it is too portly using out dated battery technology, under powered and worst of all, it is a Delta (one front, two back) configuration rather than the Tadpole (two front one back) configuration. You demand a lot of your vehicle in a turn, it is motivated by the front wheels and in a fast stop, the front wheel(s) has to do 3/4 of the work. It does not make sense that the Xebra has only one up front..

The aerodynamic of the Xbra is right up there with a brick with rounded corners. The rear of the vehicle makes a lot of different. The air that gets disrupted as it flows over the vehicle must be allowed to slowly come back together. Most of the modern car, mine included and most of the ugly dodges, all suvs and vans have blunt back ends that creates a lot of separation and vortexes that create a slight vacuum at speed that suck your car backwards a little causing excessive consumption of fuel to cruise.

[KarenRei]

You really know your stuff. :)

I thought it was great when I learned that Aptera was mostly eliminating wake turbulence by filling in the partial vacuum vehicles behind it with air from inside the cabin. It's about time that auto makers took a clue from ballistics and aviation! :) If I remember right, Gerald Bull's addition of a small rocket to fill in behind his shells, plus some shape adjustments made possible by sabot launch, nearly doubled their range. Now, that's much higher velocity launch with no rolling losses to factor in, but nonetheless, there's a lot to be said about optimizing the shape and not dragging a partial vacuum behind your vehicle :)

[qpham63]

You really know your stuff. :)

I thought it was great when I learned that Aptera was mostly eliminating wake turbulence by filling in the partial vacuum vehicles behind it with air from inside the cabin. It's about time that auto makers took a clue from ballistics and aviation! :) If I remember right, Gerald Bull's addition of a small rocket to fill in behind his shells, plus some shape adjustments made possible by sabot launch, nearly doubled their range. Now, that's much higher velocity launch with no rolling losses to factor in, but nonetheless, there's a lot to be said about optimizing the shape and not dragging a partial vacuum behind your vehicle :)

Due to the license plate which airplanes do not have. If they have a knife edge as a finished tail, they would not need to fill in that turbulent. Since there will be millions of these :p on the road, the law must be able to identify each and every Aptera.

[Matthijs]

That's why I love the Aptera prototype!

http://blog.wired.com/cars/images/aptera_side_and_back_view.jpg

And in my case I am foreseeing problems with the Dutch license plate.
http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=45

[LQUAN]

Aptera body style derived from Pegasus, a human-powered vehicle, back in 1983.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/misc/londry/default.htm

Aptera engineers redesigned the wheels arangement to make them a near perfect equelateral triangle for stability. This car does not flipped easily. It may slide and skid on certain road condition but won't flip.

[davidrools]

Indeed, the boundary layer separation at the rear of the vehicle is, in fact, HUGE. More than a slight vacuum, it can easily contribute MORE to drag than the high pressure on the front of the vehicle. Too bad air weren't less dense. Though if you were at high altitude, the Aptera would perform better than at low altitude whereas non-turbocharged combustion engines make less power at high altitudes not offset by the reduction in drag.

I wonder if the Aptera guys went so far as to optimize the surface roughness in the paint to minimize skin drag.

It would be nice if there could be a clear knife-tail that's maybe polarized or something so you could still see through to the license plate/brake lights but it would still have the optimal streamlined form.

[qpham63]

I was very involved with HPV design/build/race in the mid 80s through San Diego State University. I have looked at the Pegasus.

It is conceivable that the Aptera design may have been derived or inspired by the design of the Pegasus. It is very similar to the Pegasus in outer appearance for sure. It is entirely possible to have these very similar designs based on good applied sciences and design practices.

When we were racing against other Universities, it is apparent that we have all used the same science books and applied fluid dynamic principles for low speed (subsonic) as well as getting fancy as to how we would leave this envelop to address the wheels, our means of support and drive for our vehicles without disturbing the air so much as we travel through it. Our designs were very similar to eachother as we maximizing riders' out put as well as minimizing drag.

I think you can argue either way and I am not advocating that it is one or the other but would like to bring up a different point of view that may explain the similarities. One day if I have the opportunity to, I would pose the question.

Regardless of how the design of the Aptera come to be, we can all agree that it is a great design at least for the available technology.

When we all drive our Apteras around, to work, to play or where everelse, we will all realize that the all dreaded back side of our vehicle will not be so filthy like what we have seen with our current vehicles.

Being from a huge family (one of 16 kids, no joke, Catholic, lives near train tracks...yep all that applies) we had a Ford Econoline to get us around. My job was to wash the darn thing every other week and the one thing that I can always count on was that the back end of this thing will always be the most filthy. This is due to the turbulence in the rear of the vehicle.

Turbulence air is faster moving air and that means it is lower pressure. This literally means that there is a vacuum effect that suck you back against the direction of your travel. The faster you go the stronger the vacuum.

This is why the fastest HPV travels 80+ MPH on ~1Hp through a 200 meter trap.

As stiffer, stronger and ligher weight structures are getting easier and easier to build with better materials and ergonomics as well as better training/condition methods are learned, the speed record for HPV (an indication of efficiency of lighter weight, lower drag and better power out put) is getting higher and higher.

Similarly, you have seen this with our regular automobiles and with radical departure from the normal car design approach, the Aptera have set the bar very high for the automobiles of today.

I can not wait until they release what would essentially replace the family sedan. I would definitely buy one.

[LQUAN]

davidrools, I was thinking of a clear bubble tail end that ends flatter to reduce the wake turbulence. The clear bubble tail end can fit onto the existing design.

[qpham63]

California does not allow any thing even if it is absolutely clear. The state of CA use reflective paint that help reflect lasers that is used to nab speedsters. The reflective paint also help the PHOTOCOP at intersections. Any covering would reduce the reflection and is illegal.

Perhaps the best thing to do is to cover the tail light area only (like around the head lights) and leave open just the license plate area. It would significantly reduce the blunt areas at the tail end.

[LQUAN]

There you go. An idea for after-market accessories if Aptera doesn't provide.:)

[davidrools]

So I was quite curious as to what the wording was in the CVC regarding how you mount your license plate, particularly if there are any rules specific to motorcycles (or revolutionary 3 wheeled vehicles registered as motorcycles). I didn't find any special rules for motorcycles, but the laws that outline mounting don't specify the orientation. It merely says that it has to be between 12 and 60 inches off the ground and "clearly visible". So if your license plate were mounted flat, parallel with the ground (or angled slightly), would it still be legal in California? Yes it would probably annoy cops and get you pulled over and they would probably argue, successfully, that it wasn't clearly visible, but it's not explicitly stated.

CVC Section 5201 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5201.htm) if you want some boring reading.

[TR88]

Wow. That Zap Alias is one ugly contraption. It just makes me appreciate the Aptera that much more.

Now if only I could get one (the Aptera, certainly not the Zap) here in Florida. Oh well, another year or more of watching and waiting.

[MarrInLA]

Karen's right--we don't see many Zebras or Zeens cuz they are NEVs--and cost
15k!!! That's alot for a vehicle you can never take on a road with a speed posted over 35mph.

But MAINLY, it's cuz they are CRAP. Ive driven both, the Zebra is down right UNSAFE, VERY slow to brake, VERY BAD visibility....BAD steering control....I
don't think I would drive it if you GAVE it to me.

The Zeen is boxy & much more solid, & brakes better, but still only 35 mi range on a 4-6 hr charge!

They used to sell them in Glendale, at a place called Enviroworks or something like that.