Competing Cars

[Dolphyn]

Here's an update on the Green Vehicles Triac:

It may all be a SCAM (http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com), says one of Triac's biggest fans. Yikes!

(I don't see how it could be profitable as a scam, since prototypes exist and that couldn't have been cheap, not to mention the money spent on real estate, and I don't think the company has taken very many deposits.)

[eestorfan]

Nissan has a PRODUCTION model shown and being tested. Nissan has money, a website with great up to date info, a phone number you can call and speak to a live person, years of manufacturing experience with cars and EVs and a huge infrastructure, etc, etc.

Aptera has prototypes of non-production models and no production vehicles show, molds don't make a car. They miss every target date, don't communicate, and seem to be relying on government funding.

Most logical people would see Nissan as closer to delivering based on this and certainly more reputable based on Aptera's lack of communication and missing critical dates and start up status. Nissan could be completely full of it but they still look better than Aptera at this point in terms of confidence and ability to deliver.
Thanks evmavin! That is very well said. :) I know Karen really wants one of these as do I and others, BUT she isn't being realistic as far as the comparison goes. And Nissan could always switch batteries if something much more advanced came along before production. My wife has a gasoline car (35mpg/hwy) so the LEAF would work for me as the most I would drive in any one day would be 50-70 mi.

[roflwaffle]

Most logical people would see Nissan as closer to delivering based on this and certainly more reputable based on Aptera's lack of communication and missing critical dates and start up status.Most logical people wouldn't see anything of the sort AFAIK, there isn't enough information to draw conclusions like that. Then again, most people aren't logical and would likely draw similar conclusions based on Nissan being an established company and so on.

[drivin98]

Leaf Leaf Leaf Leaf Leaf. Hello? Mitsubishi i MiEV (http://green.autoblog.com/tag/Mitsubishi+i+Miev/) would seem to me to be the first from a major company. Plus, I like it more than the electric catfish.

[KarenRei]

Here's an update on the Green Vehicles Triac:

It may all be a SCAM (http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com), says one of Triac's biggest fans. Yikes!

(I don't see how it could be profitable as a scam, since prototypes exist and that couldn't have been cheap, not to mention the money spent on real estate, and I don't think the company has taken very many deposits.)

That's a shame, but I can't say it's unexpected (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=687&page=5&highlight=triac).

I try to warn people when they have unrealistic expectations, I really do...

[KarenRei]

so the LEAF would work for me as the most I would drive in any one day would be 50-70 mi.

And if the real-world highway mileage is 60-70 miles, as getting 100 miles on LA4 would indicate, how comfortable would you actually feel driving 50-70 miles on a vehicle like that?

I'd wager "not very". I'd probably be hesitant to go over 45-50 miles highway in a vehicle like that. But that's what the Leaf is: 100 miles on LA4, which is probably under 70 miles highway.

[eestorfan]

And if the real-world highway mileage is 60-70 miles, as getting 100 miles on LA4 would indicate, how comfortable would you actually feel driving 50-70 miles on a vehicle like that?

I'd wager "not very". I'd probably be hesitant to go over 45-50 miles highway in a vehicle like that. But that's what the Leaf is: 100 miles on LA4, which is probably under 70 miles highway.
You would lose...lol...highway distance twice a week would be 50 and while I'm at work, I will recharge it for free! The rest of the day is city mileage...10-20 depending...so I see NO problem whatsoever. You may be forgetting that the car has a nav system that tells you where the closest recharging stations are. There will be many of them by the time the car comes out at the end of 2010. There will be 50 'fast charge' stations in and around our city. As I speak, there are already some in place. It will be an awesome time to own a BEV! :) Public solar charging stations aren't far behind! But by the end of 2010, I will have a pv system on the roof!

[AlfredWAB]

Unlike Aptera, I seem to receive regular communication on what's happening at FVT. It is rapidly becoming my favorite vehicle in place of the Aptera for the X-Prize competition even though I'm a deposit holder with Aptera. I'm really getting tired of the lack of communication with deposit holders and wonder what kind of service that signals for the future. This is the latest e-mail I received today about FVT.
-------------------------------------------------------------
FVT Board of Directors takes major step forward
November, 2009

Frank Cloutier becomes newest board member.

The Future Vehicle Technologies team are very pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Frank Cloutier to the Board of Directors.

Frank has been working with FVT informally over the past 8 months and recently offered to become an active board member. Along with his enthusiasm and passion for creating a new generation of transportation, Frank brings a tremendous resume of skills and accomplishments.

Frank began his career with Hewlett-Packard Company, where he served for 32 years. He is credited with launching and building several landmark businesses for HP, including inkjet printers, notebook computers, and handheld computers. In 2005 he retired from HP as Vice President and Chief Technology Officer for HP's Printing and Imaging Group to start up Cloutier Consulting - a firm specializing in new business creation, strategy and development.

With numerous patents in the computer and computer peripheral field to his credit, Frank has been recognized with a number of industry awards, including the National Science and Technology Medal from the nation of Singapore and the Contributor of the Year Award from the American Society of Materials.

Frank is the first new member of the FVT board since the company's inception 4 years ago. We look forward to working with Frank and having his expertise to help guide the company in the new high-tech "clean-tech" economy.

The FVT team
-----------------------------------------------------

[KarenRei]

Please let us know if FVT raises any relevant amount of capital.

[AlfredWAB]

Please let us know if FVT raises any relevant amount of capital.

Since Aptera seems to be delayed until nearly the completion of the X-Prize Competition, I'll just wait and see how that goes and watch with interest. I am positive that whoever wins that competition will be able to get enough investment to start production. Until then, enough investment to stay in the competition will be enough.

[eestorfan]

Unlike Aptera, I seem to receive regular communication on what's happening at FVT. It is rapidly becoming my favorite vehicle in place of the Aptera for the X-Prize competition even though I'm a deposit holder with Aptera. I'm really getting tired of the lack of communication with deposit holders and wonder what kind of service that signals for the future. This is the latest e-mail I received today about FVT.
-------------------------------------------------------------
FVT Board of Directors takes major step forward
November, 2009

Frank Cloutier becomes newest board member.

The Future Vehicle Technologies team are very pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. Frank Cloutier to the Board of Directors.

Frank has been working with FVT informally over the past 8 months and recently offered to become an active board member. Along with his enthusiasm and passion for creating a new generation of transportation, Frank brings a tremendous resume of skills and accomplishments.

Frank began his career with Hewlett-Packard Company, where he served for 32 years. He is credited with launching and building several landmark businesses for HP, including inkjet printers, notebook computers, and handheld computers. In 2005 he retired from HP as Vice President and Chief Technology Officer for HP's Printing and Imaging Group to start up Cloutier Consulting - a firm specializing in new business creation, strategy and development.

With numerous patents in the computer and computer peripheral field to his credit, Frank has been recognized with a number of industry awards, including the National Science and Technology Medal from the nation of Singapore and the Contributor of the Year Award from the American Society of Materials.

Frank is the first new member of the FVT board since the company's inception 4 years ago. We look forward to working with Frank and having his expertise to help guide the company in the new high-tech "clean-tech" economy.

The FVT team
-----------------------------------------------------
FVT's car, the eVero is really cool looking, BUT two things: It is going to cost around $40K and it is a series hybrid, not ALL electric. Even if it were all electric, the price is too high. I do believe it will be in a different category than the Aptera for the X-Prize.

[KarenRei]

I've mentioned my problems with it before. The three big ones up front:

1) No sign of any sort of real financial backing. People making concept cars in their garage outnumber people who bring cars to market a hundred to one. I can't take them seriously until I see some backing -- someone who did due diligence on them and is funding them.

2) That clear plastic canopy door. I find neither "clear plastic" nor "canopy door" acceptable. Clear plastic photodegrades, scratches, and in general is not appropriate for cars. Canopy doors let rain in, trap you if you flip, and have all sorts of other problems.

3) No signs of any serious effort toward safety. One thing that drew me to Aptera right off the bat, apart from their basic premise of letting aerodynamics dictate the style, was their heavy focus on safety -- doing computer crash testing even in the early prototype stage, for example.

I have a couple other lesser issues (for example, shaped for style more than aero in many regards; minimal cargo space; etc), but these are the biggies.

[virtualeric]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkU17oxlqPg&feature=related

I didn't want to look through 77 pages for Peugeot info, but here's a promo video of the BB1

[DonC]

You would lose...lol...highway distance twice a week would be 50 and while I'm at work, I will recharge it for free!
Betting that the site's resident optimist is being overly pessimistic seems a sucker bet. From what we know a 60-70 mile range for the Leaf seems highly unlikely. GM has said the Volt uses about 30 kW going slightly uphill at 65 mph. The Leaf probably won't be any more efficient than the Volt, probably less efficient, but giving it every benefit of a doubt, even assuming it uses 25 kW rather than 30 kW, you're still looking at a range of slightly more than 45 miles.

That's at 65 mph. Freeway speeds in SoCal are more like 70 mph to 80 mph, at least in morning rush hour. So you can dial the range downward from 45 miles.

Her 60-70 mile range at freeway speeds seems more than generous.

[eestorfan]

Betting that the site's resident optimist is being overly pessimistic seems a sucker bet. From what we know a 60-70 mile range for the Leaf seems highly unlikely. GM has said the Volt uses about 30 kW going slightly uphill at 65 mph. The Leaf probably won't be any more efficient than the Volt, probably less efficient, but giving it every benefit of a doubt, even assuming it uses 25 kW rather than 30 kW, you're still looking at a range of slightly more than 45 miles.

That's at 65 mph. Freeway speeds in SoCal are more like 70 mph to 80 mph, at least in morning rush hour. So you can dial the range downward from 45 miles.

Her 60-70 mile range at freeway speeds seems more than generous.
LOL...you need to read better...you're way off base!

[evmavin]

The Leaf battery pack will be leased as officially stated by Nissan's CEO today. I actually don't mind this depending on the cost of the car after rebates and if the lease is low it could make sense not to mention I don't keep cars that long. We will have to see how it works out when pricing is released. Short term leasing a first gen EV may be a good option to keep ahead of the advancements in tech and new models that could be released.

[eestorfan]

The Leaf battery pack will be leased as officially stated by Nissan's CEO today. I actually don't mind this depending on the cost of the car after rebates and if the lease is low it could make sense not to mention I don't keep cars that long. We will have to see how it works out when pricing is released. Short term leasing a first gen EV may be a good option to keep ahead of the advancements in tech and new models that could be released.
Where did you see that? It isn't on their website. Are you sure it's for the U.S. one in 2010?

[evmavin]

Where did you see that? It isn't on their website. Are you sure it's for the U.S. one in 2010?


http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/13/nissan-ceo-is-bullish-on-leafs-success-says-million-plug-ins-b/

[prberg]

I just came back from the Nissan Event here in Los Angeles. While there wasn't a whole lot of info (it was more of a publicity event) it was exciting to see another electric vehicle being developed.

If Nissan comes through with their promises, and does it in 2010 it will be a pretty big deal. The most interesting number for me was, 100 miles per charge. That is pretty sweet. On the slide show it said: 80kw/280Nm power output. Does that mean anything to anybody? They also said it would fully charge in 8 hours (from a 200v home charger). So it must have a pretty big battery pack?

My first choice would be an Aptera... but if there are futher delays and Nissan hits the market first, the Leaf is looking very good.

-Peter

[Dolphyn]

Cool, you were there! I don't suppose they said anything about my favorite, the Land Glider (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/07/tokyo-2009-preview-nissan-unveils-land-glider-concept-w-video/)?

[DonC]

The most interesting number for me was, 100 miles per charge. That is pretty sweet. On the slide show it said: 80kw/280Nm power output. Does that mean anything to anybody? They also said it would fully charge in 8 hours (from a 200v home charger). So it must have a pretty big battery pack?

80kW is the rated output of the engine and 280Nm is the maximum torque in newton meters. What this suggests is that the motor is a little light but the torque is similar to what you'd find in a V6. Should be a quick fun ride.

The 100 mile range which you found interesting is quite misleading. As Karen has mentioned, that's the range based on the LA4 drive cycle, which represents how your grandmother drove in Los Angeles in 1964. It doesn't realistically represent how people drive today. Start driving on the freeways and you might halve that range.

Nissan seems to have shopped around till they found a drive cycle they could use to claim a 100 mile range.

[Matthijs]

I have made a part II of this long thread please continue here: http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?p=39700