Competing Cars

[JakesOnline]

It seems to me that there is going to some competition for Aptera by the time they start production. I've seen many of the options out there and I would choose Aptera over all of them because of the efficient design, motorcycle/carpool status, top speed etc... However, the Aptera is starting to look like one of the more expensive green cars out there. If money was not an issue I would buy an Aptera and another green car which had more than 2 seats. Unfortunately money is an issue for me and as much as I'd like to make a statement with the car I purchase, I may not be able to justify the cost of the Aptera considering the growing number of competing green cars which are less expensive and have 4 wheels, a back seat etc...

Please use this thread to post info about competing cars so we have a list in a single thread. If you want to disuss one them, please search to see if there's an existing thread specifically for it, if not create a new thread to discuss that particular car.

[JakesOnline]

ZPM/MDI Air Car
Size: 6 passenger
Speed: 96 MPH
Range: 848 Miles (hmm sounds too good to be true)
Price: $17,800
Fuel: Compressed Air and?
At speeds over 35mph the Compressed Air Vehicle uses small amounts of fuel–either gasoline, propane, ethanol or bio fuels–to heat air inside a heating chamber as it enters the engine. This process produces emissions of only 0.141lbs of CO2 per mile.
Date: Reservations this year for delivery in 2010
Web Site: http://zeropollutionmotors.us/

[JakesOnline]

Honda Civic GX
Size: 4 door Civic
Speed: Same as all Civics?
Range: 220 Miles
Price: $21,590 (after $3k fed tax rebate)
Fuel: Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)
Date: Available now
Cost per mile: < $.06 (lower with home fueling station)
Emissions: PZEV
Web Site: http://www.civicgx.com/

[Aptera#1434]

top speed: 74.6 mph
avail: 2010
2 seat, tandem
235 mpg diesel
no price found yet.

[mmalc]

Honda Civic GX
[...]
Fuel: Compressed Natural Gas (CNG)
[...]
Web Site: http://www.civicgx.com/

I personally don't regard this as a competitor. It's just substituting one non-renewable limited-supply energy source for another (albeit cleaner) one.

I appreciate this is stretching things a little, but at least a vehicle with an electric engine can in principle be powered by renewables. Moreover, it's not burning resources whilst stationary in traffic. If the Civic were a natural gas-powered serial hybrid, that would be different.

[mmalc]

The Venture One (http://www.flytheroad.com/) will be in some respects a competitor -- if they get their act together. The latest update was primarily drawings again, though, and it seems that for most people it's going to be a 1+1 rather than a two-seater (+ 1/2), which limits its market.

[JakesOnline]

I personally don't regard this as a competitor. It's just substituting one non-renewable limited-supply energy source for another (albeit cleaner) one.

I appreciate this is stretching things a little, but at least a vehicle with an electric engine can in principle be powered by renewables. Moreover, it's not burning resources whilst stationary in traffic. If the Civic were a natural gas-powered serial hybrid, that would be different.

I disagree.

The Civic GX engine produces almost no emissions. The amount of smog-forming emissions is near zero. In fact, the GX is the cleanest-burning internal-combustion vehicle in the world. INCLUDING HYBRIDS.

Some sources of CNG are renewable, such as land fill, manure etc..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_natural_gas

It is produced domestically, i.e., we don't kill innocent men women and children for it.

[n_dawg]

I personally don't regard this as a competitor. It's just substituting one non-renewable limited-supply energy source for another (albeit cleaner) one.

Well, if hydrogen cars could be considered competitors, I don't see why this wouldn't be. ;)

[mmalc]

The Civic GX engine produces almost no emissions.

It produces CO2. But I already said it's cleaner, that's not the point.

Some sources of CNG are renewable, such as land fill, manure etc..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_natural_gas

We'll see how those develop.
I personally, though, put it in the same category as petrol -- a fuel we want to move away from rather than encouraging increased use of. Where it can be used from a renewable source, in general I'd rather it be turned directly into electricity than pumped around the country.

And to reiterate my point, for the Civic I'd rather see it as a (plug-in, just to be explicit) serial hybrid than have it use CNG alone. (Then it would certainly be a competitor.)


It is produced domestically, i.e., we don't kill innocent men women and children for it.

It certainly has that in its favour, at least.

[mmalc]

Well, if hydrogen cars could be considered competitors, I don't see why this wouldn't be. ;)

It depends what you mean by "hydrogen car". If you mean one that uses an internal combustion engine fueled by hydrogen, again I personally don't regard that as a competitor.

If you mean hydrogen fuel cell, then that's possibly closer to the mark. But unless we find better ways to make hydrogen than using electricity or through a biological process that gives off CO2 as a byproduct, then again for me it's not really a competitor.

[n_dawg]

It depends what you mean by "hydrogen car". If you mean one that uses an internal combustion engine fueled by hydrogen, again I personally don't regard that as a competitor.

So, EVs only then?


If you mean hydrogen fuel cell, then that's possibly closer to the mark. But unless we find better ways to make hydrogen than using electricity or through a biological process that gives off CO2 as a byproduct, then again for me it's not really a competitor.

Oh, we have a better way. We can produce hydrogen today by electrolyzing water with electricity generated by wind/solar. Only problem is it costs $10-20 per gasoline gallon equivalent, versus $2-3 for steam reformed natural gas.

I wouldn't really consider hydrogen in the same category either. Hydrogen is a bait-and-switch and a distraction rolled into one.

[mmalc]

So, EVs only then?

Where EVs include serial hybrids, for me personally, yes. (I need to keep stressing that this is a personal perspective because I do appreciate that others may not have quite the same view. In this particular case I'm being somewhat more idealistic than I would normally be -- I typically tend to be more pragmatic.)

Oh, we have a better way. We can produce hydrogen today by electrolyzing water with electricity generated by wind/solar. Only problem is it costs $10-20 per gasoline gallon equivalent, versus $2-3 for steam reformed natural gas.
I wouldn't really consider hydrogen in the same category either. Hydrogen is a bait-and-switch and a distraction rolled into one.

Indeed; unless it ends up being the only viable energy carrier, I'd rather see the electricity used directly.

[esmith]

Oh, we have a better way. We can produce hydrogen today by electrolyzing water with electricity generated by wind/solar. Only problem is it costs $10-20 per gasoline gallon equivalent, versus $2-3 for steam reformed natural gas.

I have no idea where you get the $10-20 number. Electrolysis is quite efficient. It is not much worse than using the same electricity to charge NiMH batteries in a car like RAV4 EV.
Now, doing anything with resulting hydrogen, THAT's hard. You can't store it easily (it has to be liquefied or pressurized if you want reasonable quantities), and you can't burn it quite as easily as gasoline or even natural gas (thus all the fuss about fuel cells).

[Aptera#1434]

Natural gas prices are going to double soon. Natural gas reserves are finite.

Toyota was crazy to discontinue the RAV4 EV.
GM was insane to discontinue the EV1.
Hopefully, Aptera will be on schedule to complete the vehicles in the near future.
My 2001 Honda Insight has over 220,000 miles now. It isn't burning oil and runs well.
But, I need an Aptera soon!

[aptera1213]

yeah, my wife would buy a RAV4 EV in a heartbeat...

if either of the rav4 or crv went ev or even just hybrid, it would sell like crazy

as it is, my wife is planning on the fit hybrid as soon as it comes out...she's hoping for 2009, probably the same time i get my aptera...

[JoeReal]

I have no idea where you get the $10-20 number. Electrolysis is quite efficient. It is not much worse than using the same electricity to charge NiMH batteries in a car like RAV4 EV.
Now, doing anything with resulting hydrogen, THAT's hard. You can't store it easily (it has to be liquefied or pressurized if you want reasonable quantities), and you can't burn it quite as easily as gasoline or even natural gas (thus all the fuss about fuel cells).

I agree that electrolysis is quite efficient. I used to promote hydrogen for cars until the excellent batteries came to be.

There is quite a trick patented by the Dutch when it comes to cracking hydrogen. Well to summarize the trick is that water is mixed with some electrolytes that makes the greatest efficiency of splitting the water. Then subject the incompressible water to high pressure and do the electolysis. The resulting gasses are also compressed as a result, without the use of inefficient compressor pumps. Compressed gasses are collected in pressurized containers as a matter of switching high pressure valves, without the need for compressors.

Then the compressed gasses are utilized to produce energy, first, from the decompression using a compressed air engine, similar to that used by an air car. Together with the decompression, it produces cooling effect which can be used for air conditioning. Finally the decompressed gasses are either fed into an IC hydrogen compatible engine or fuel cell stack. Because none of the energy is spent on compression of gasses, there is very great efficiency. About 90% from electric current unto the energy of compression plus the energy value of hydrogen. I'm still searching for that patent reference, so can't give you the links at the moment. I have done such research around mid 1990's. It was a long time ago when hydrogen was really irrelevant and so the technology was forgotten or ignored.

But now the batteries are better for most of our commutes, for the time being, so again, we may not be able to make the hydrogen technology better. But the long distance trucks and transportations like trains and other prime movers of our goods, those can be good niches for hydrogen fuel. Not to mention air and space travel. For one, the tanks don't need to be super heavy, but they need to be super strong, and there are such tanks made of bullet-proof Kevlar or Spiderwire spectra fibers which is used by some Jet Fighter planes . These tanks can be jettisoned off from the upper limits of jet travel and they are retrieved in the ground and are without damage. These types of tanks can be used by our cargo trucks or trains, and they can be quickly refilled.

Moreover, if you heat up the water using solar concentration, then apply only a mild electric current, most electro-conducting metals would easily become inexpensive catalysts. Often direct conversion from solar power to splitting hydrogen are termed Solar Hydrogen. Heat from concentrating the sun's rays is used to split water in the presence of inexpensive catalyst powered by small amount of electric current, and thus hydrogen can be produced very inexpensively at less than $3 per equivalent gasoline gallon. The price could further go down. There is no need to use electricity. From solar radiation to stored energy of hydrogen, the efficiency is between 50 to 60%. The common commercial solar Panels are only around 15% conversion efficiency. Thus if solar is our energy source, we get 50% of its energy stored as hydrogen energy. If we use solar energy to create electricity using PV, the solar panels are about 15% efficient, with the inverters to wires (71%) and from wires to chargers to battery pack (88%), the overall efficiency is only 9.4% overall, compare this to 50% overall. So there is great potential with hydrogen.

But as I have mentioned, battery is more practical at the time being. The solar hydrogen is still so young and fuel cells still more expensive. And the source of electric energy is predominantly coal and other fossil fuels and not solar. In this case, batteries have better overall efficiencies than hydrogen. If we were to use solar, we have to use it directly to split hydrogen, not go through the hoops of power grids. Even with fossil fuels, don't convert it to electricity and then use electrolysis, rather, crack the oil to extract hydrogen directly via steam reformation and other processes, why go through all the trouble of electrolysis? The only time that electrolysis is the preferred way if the source of power is either wind or nuclear. There is no direct conversion method in such cases.

Sometimes we think in convoluted ways. Fore example about solar PV and charging the car batteries. Why go to the trouble of inverting the DC from PV then feeding it to the charger which will convert it from AC to DC then recharge the batteries?Tremendous losses there, especially at the inverter side. I would say that we need to have DC to DC charging, from solar PV directly to Aptera's batteries.

Not one technique is better than others in all situation, each have their own most efficient niches of application. So we cannot rush to judge and summarily dismiss that one approach is the only approach that we take.

[n_dawg]

I have no idea where you get the $10-20 number. Electrolysis is quite efficient. It is not much worse than using the same electricity to charge NiMH batteries in a car like RAV4 EV.

source (http://www.cool-companies.org/hydrogen/inthenews.cfm)

Except that it is much worst, especially since you have to include the losses in the fuel cell (even the best ones are ~60% efficient). A good electrolyzer is on the order of 70% efficient.

So, how much electricity would 1 gallon equivalent of hydrogen cost?

1 gallon gasoline --> 131.7 MJ

Let's say ICEs are 25% efficient, so reduce that to 32.9 MJ.

an electrolyzer at 70% efficiency coupled to a fuel cell at 60% efficiency would need 78.4 MJ, which would cost $4.36 at 20¢/kWh (remember, local generation since H2 is hard to transport).

Anyone care to run the numbers for CNG steam reformation?


Now, doing anything with resulting hydrogen, THAT's hard. You can't store it easily (it has to be liquefied or pressurized if you want reasonable quantities), and you can't burn it quite as easily as gasoline or even natural gas (thus all the fuss about fuel cells).

Oh, you can burn it just fine. The problem is that the engine isn't terribly thermodynamically efficient compared to the fuel cell.

No-one will deny that in a theoretically perfect world, where hydrogen infrastructure magically falls from the sky, a Hydrogen economy wouldn't be preferable to an Oil economy. However, an Electron economy is preferable to them both. :)

[KarenRei]

About 90% from electric current unto the energy of compression plus the energy value of hydrogen.

I seriously doubt that. That's more than even the high temperature, low-volume pressurized steam systems get for just the electrolysis itself.

. There is no need to use electricity. From solar radiation to stored energy of hydrogen, the efficiency is between 50 to 60%. The common commercial solar Panels are only around 15% conversion efficiency.

Well, that certainly is a poor comparison. You're comparing hydrogen via extreme temperature solar *thermal* with solar via *photovoltaics* (rather than solar thermal, let alone high temperature solar thermal). What you're referring to in cracking hydrogen with heat is "thermolysis", and it's similar in efficiency to electricity generation at the same given temperature. Unless you're just referring to high temperature electrolysis, in which you need to suffer photovoltaic or carnot losses to produce your electricity, *then* your electrolysis losses.

Why go to the trouble of inverting the DC from PV then feeding it to the charger which will convert it from AC to DC then recharge the batteries?

Well, "simplicity" is the obvious answer (since everything's already designed around standard AC), but a less obvious answer is to match a desired charging profile (voltage optimally varies over the course of the charge).

There's one thing you wrote that I'd definitely agree with you on, however: hydrogen is definitely interesting for air travel. On aircraft, mass is much more critical than bulk, and while hydrogen has lousy bulk energy density, it has excellent mass energy density. I doubt we'll see fuel cells with a high enough power density to be useful for directly powering commercial aircraft propulsion components any time soon (onboard electronics, sure, but that's a much smaller task), but an efficient hydrogen-powered jet engine could be a nice solution to run aircraft cleanly. This is the main reason why I don't see hydrogen research as a complete waste of time. It's a poor application for cars, but it could be interesting for aviation.

[esmith]

Except that it is much worst, especially since you have to include the losses in the fuel cell (even the best ones are ~60% efficient). A good electrolyzer is on the order of 70% efficient.

So, how much electricity would 1 gallon equivalent of hydrogen cost?

1 gallon gasoline --> 131.7 MJ

Let's say ICEs are 25% efficient, so reduce that to 32.9 MJ.

an electrolyzer at 70% efficiency coupled to a fuel cell at 60% efficiency would need 78.4 MJ, which would cost $4.36 at 20¢/kWh (remember, local generation since H2 is hard to transport).


70% electrolyzer and 60% fuel cell -> 42% efficiency, power plant to wheels
66% NiMH batteries and 85% drivetrain efficiency -> 56% efficiency

56/42 = 1.33

A fuel cell RAV4 would cost 33% more per mile to drive than an electric RAV4 EV. Both of them would ultimately work on grid electricity. The difference being that hydrogen can be pre-produced at filling stations and "refueling" of a hydrogen car can take seconds or minutes instead of hours.

[KarenRei]

70% electrolyzer and 60% fuel cell -> 42% efficiency, power plant to wheels
66% NiMH batteries and 85% drivetrain efficiency -> 56% efficiency

Of course, this comparison is about as stacked against EVs as you can get. Most fuel cells are only 30-45% efficient (60% is mostly just in the lab, last time I checked). 66% is low even for automotive NiMH, and Li-ion ranges from ~96% to ~99.9%, depending on how fast you charge. And we're ignoring the energy to compress the hydrogen. I'm not sure how much energy it takes to transport it, but I imagine it's similar to electrical transmission efficiency (~92.8% in the US). Finally, you omitted drivetrain efficiency for the hydrogen car; hydrogen cars have fuel cells *and* an electric drivetrain.

Thus, we come to a more accurage comparison along the lines of:

H2: 35% power plant, 70% electrolyzer, 85% compression, 93% shipping, 40% fuel cell, 85% drivetrain: 6.6%
EV: 35% power plant, 93% transmission, 93% charger, 99% batteries (slow charge), 85% drivetrain: 25.5%

Even if you assume H2 tech advances, it's still hard to come even close to a modern EV. Example:
H2: 35% power plant, 80% electrolyzer, 90% compression, 93% shipping, 50% fuel cell, 85% drivetrain: 9.9%

This is why a lot of environmentalists have serious gripes with a hydrogen economy -- its inefficiency. Even if the electricity is renewable, you're still looking at several times more land needed for solar cells, several times the coastline occupied by wind farms, several times the steel for geothermal stations, and so on. No matter what the environmental consequences of the power type, a hydrogen economy increases them several times over.

The difference being that hydrogen can be pre-produced at filling stations and "refueling" of a hydrogen car can take seconds or minutes instead of hours.

The modern automotive li-ions can recharge in minutes, too. This used to be hydrogen's big selling point over electricity, but it doesn't play any more. Some hydrogen proponents sometimes try to claim that fast chargers are impossible because of the amount of current, but given that they already exist (AltairNano makes a 250kW charger for $125k, for example -- a lower cost per charger than the cost per pump at an H2 filling station), that argument doesn't fly, either. 250kW may sound like a lot compared to what we're used to in our everyday lives, but in industry, working with that kind of power is nothing special. And at least here, you only need it in short bursts.

Not that LiPs could take it *that* fast, but if they could, Aptera's pack could be charged in 2 1/2 minutes with that kind of power. That's enough power to charge even an electric SUV in a reasonable amount of time. I think 60kW or so would be ideal for something like an Aptera.

[speculawyer]

I've been looking into various electric cars and there is quite a bit of competition. But if you subtract out the low-speed cars (Reva, Zap, GEM, etc.) and the very expensive cars (like the Tesla, Fisker, Venturi, Wrightspeed, etc.), the number drops down sharply.

The biggest competitors to the Aptera seem to be the GM Chevy Volt, the Loremo, and the Th!nk City car. None of these (nor the Aptera) are yet available is the USA yet. The Th!nk may be for sale in Scandanavia. The race is on!

Here is a posting on another message board of various electric cars I've been looking at:
neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314585



:aptera:

[JakesOnline]

Zenn cityZen EV

Price: $30k?
Top: Speed 80 MPH
Range: 250 miles
Fuel: Full EV
Battery: EEStor Supercapacitor

cityZENN will recharge 5 minutes using a base station EEStore

If this one hits the streets on schedule in 2009 and the EEStor supercap lives up to it's specs, I think it will be a tough one to beat. If EEStor is for real, it would be shame not to have it in the Aptera.


http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/9827/zennin3.jpg

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I'll mention two things that have not been mentioned yet:

"Solid" hydrogen storage -- a metal powder that can store 2X the hydrogen in a given volume than high pressure tanks. I saw this on Scientific American (http://www.pbs.org/saf/1506/features/ovshinsky.htm), and the inventor's name is Stan Ovshinsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_R._Ovshinsky). He also invented NiMH batteries, the re-writable CD-RW, and sheet metal PV roofing.

The biggest problem with this is the heat it gives off when the hydrogen is (chemically) absorbed into the metal. My suggestion to deal with this is to not do this in the car (avoiding the need for a water jacket); but rather do it in a building (where the heat can be recovered and used), and then transfer the inert metal powder into the car with a vacuum system.

The second thing I'll mention is that "raw" aluminum chemically splits water -- letting you use the hydrogen; leaving you with aluminum oxide and the hydrogen. I heard this on Talk of the Nation Science Friday -- the professor was from Purdue (http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html), and the trick is to use gallium to coat the aluminum before hand to prevent it from oxidizing. The gallium remains stable and does not affect the reaction, and can be recovered afterwards.

Re-melt the aluminum and reuse -- obviously, this adds a lot of energy to the process (though not nearly as much as the first time you smelt the aluminum ore!). The important thing is that the aluminum is like a key, used to unlock the water easily and reliably. So, you have a tank of water, and aluminum pellets (coated with gallium) and you have a hydrogen storage and transportation and production system.

[KarenRei]

It's not that simple. You can't just "remelt" the aluminum. It's not aluminum anymore; it's aluminum oxide, which *is* aluminum ore (to be more precise, it's alumina, which is what you get from purifying aluminum ore). You need to run it through high temperature electrolysis, which is a *very* energy intense process (aluminum smelters often have their own large, dedicated power plants). The gallium/aluminum process described is even more wasteful than compressed hydrogen. So are metal hydrides, for that matter, just to as extreme of a degree.

No matter how you shake it, a hydrogen economy is extremely inefficient. The only question is whether you're looking at using 2-3 times as much energy as an electric economy or 5+ times as much.

[Jonathan Sek]

No matter how you shake it, a hydrogen economy is extremely inefficient. The only question is whether you're looking at using 2-3 times as much energy as an electric economy or 5+ times as much.

There is always so much discussion in this forum on alternate methods of energy generation in order to continue our happy motoring existence. The quote above hits the nail on the head. Nothing in the near term will take the place of cheap oil and allow us to continue our energy squandering lifestyles. Hydrogen for personal transport is a pipe dream. As efficient as the Aptera 1e is, and it should result in a tremendous paradigm shift in the way Americans travel in the next 10-20 years, it still can't hold a candle to the worlds most efficient human tranport method, the bicycle.

Being a conservationist, I have made dramatic changes in my energy usage over the years. These include greater attic insulation, LED & CFL lighting, line drying cold water washed clothes and turning off the furnace pilot light for the season. The most important, though, has been bicycling for transportation (and using a bike trailer with 100lb capacity for hauling).

I've bicycle commuted for over 25 years and have had some nasty auto collisions, several of which resulted in broken ribs:sick0010: . Having to deal with fools and their 4-wheel bricks (which does not include the beautiful and functional teardrop shaped 3-wheeler we know and love) out on the road has made me more anti-automobile than ever. People are always getting irritated that I slow them down by a number of seconds. Can't we share the road? An automobile's multi-ton metal package does not mean that the drivers whole body is extended out to the cars envelope thus allowing them to hog the whole lane. If people drove smaller vehicles, it would be easier to go around the bicyclists of the world. An additional benefit to cycling is the exercise.

There you have it. Something that costs so little, and which most people already posses, can go a long way to solve two of our societies most vexing problems; energy usage per person and obesity:happy0025: .
jonathan

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Does anybody know anything about the Think City car, or the Think Ox?

Home - Think (http://www.think.no/)

http://www.think.no/var/think/storage/images/press-pictures/picture-gallery/photos/th!nk-i-city-i/think-city-19/2488-1-eng-GB/Think-city-19_imagelarge.jpg

http://www.think.no/var/think/storage/images/press-pictures/picture-gallery/photos/th!nk-ox/think-ox-7/2747-1-eng-GB/Think-Ox-7_imagelarge.jpg

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I just found out about a car that Mercedes designed that comes very close to the Aptera's Cd: the Boxfish! It has a Cd of just 0.19, vs the Aptera's 0.11... (A clay model had a Cd of just 0.06!)

http://www.worldcarfans.com/2050607.004
http://img.worldcarfans.com/US/2005/6/7/2050607.004/2050607.004.Mini18L.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/US/2005/6/7/2050607.004/2050607.004.Mini2L.jpg
http://img.worldcarfans.com/US/2005/6/7/3050607.002/1026big.jpg

And yes, the shape is based on the boxfish, which was found to have the most streamlined shape in nature!

http://img.worldcarfans.com/US/2005/6/7/3050607.002/1001big.jpg

Yes, it seats 4 (rather than 2) and it has 4 wheels, as well. According to this article:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/03/08/cars.fish.popsci/index.html

...it can get 85mpg at 56mph, with it's diesel engine. It beats the Honda Insight's 0.25 Cd, and the Toyota Prius' of 0.26.

Here's the Mercedes press kit page:

http://wwwsg.daimlerchrysler.com/SD7DEV/GMS/TEMPLATES/GMS_PRESS_KIT/0,2970,0-1-68938-1-1-text-0-68935,00.html

0-100kph/62mph in 8.2 seconds, and still get a combined MPG of 70mpg. I hope they can design -- and sell it, with a serial plugin hybrid drivetrain... :twisted:

Apparently, Mercedes is sitting on this project -- I say BRING IT ON, PLEASE!

[KarenRei]

70mpg diesel is the CO2 and petroleum use equivalent of 60mpg gasoline.

[n_dawg]

70mpg diesel is the CO2 and petroleum use equivalent of 60mpg gasoline.

It gets worst – the actual fuel consumption on the EU driving cycle was 4.3 L/100 km, or 55 mpg.

By the looks of it they didn't include any high-efficiency drivetrain technology though, so this is basically a pure diesel driven car. They did use some new emissions control techniques that supposedly reduced NOx emissions by 80% though. The real innovation here is the 'skeletal' body designed for rigidity. Check it out:

http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/Projects/c2c/channel/images/213955_333788_381_254_bioniccar_evolution4_600.jpg

We can only wonder what sort of efficiency they would have gotten with this as a PSHEV.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

My thoughts exactly: if Mercedes made this a plug in serial electric hybrid, they would have a winner. It's the size of a Honda Element, seats four comfortably, has a Cd of 0.19, weighs ~30% less than typical. It should get over 100mpg.

[KarenRei]

Neil: It doesn't, unfortunately. Over 70% more Cd, probably more cross-sectional area, heavier, net result = less than half as efficient as an Aptera (130mpg). If that 55mpg diesel figure is right, it's only about a third as efficient.

Mind you, the fact that it seats more people could certainly make it worth the drop for some people.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

It gets 85mpg at a constant 56mph (on flat ground, with no wind, presumably). The combined MPG is 70.

Compared to the Toyota Prius (0.26 Cd) and the Honda Insight (0.25Cd), the 0.19Cd of the Boxfish is very impressive. I know that some Insight drivers can do better than 100mpg, so I would say that with an efficient serial hybrid drive, that it could get above 100mpg, anyway.

Heck, the prototype hybrid Mini (with 640HP) (http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html) can get 80mpg...with no aero advantage and all that horsepower!

[KarenRei]

http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini

After delivering energy to the battery system the mileage equivalent translates to between 65 and 80 mpg

Doesn't list a drive cycle, and doesn't list whether that's diesel. 65-80mpg diesel is ~55-70mpg gasoline. Even if we were to assume that this is on a European drive cycle, rather than just an optimal drive or an "here's what I got around town" drive, the EPA drive cycle is more stressful. Also, it's a PHEV, so we don't know if they're playing the PHEV mileage game. I can tell you this: A mini is not a design that's going to be getting anything like 80mpg gasoline at 55mph, no matter what sort of drivetrain you put in it.

You always have to be careful when comparing mpg figures, because they can be very misleading. And unfortunately, a lot of companies deliberately make use of this confusion. Aptera is a culprit in this, too, with their "300 mpg" figure. The worst I've seen is the "150 mpg SUV", in which they assumed that only 1/7th or so of its driving was on gasoline, and then ignored the electricity for the rest.

[speculawyer]

What is driving me crazy is that there are no competing (highway-speed) electric cars nor the Aptera currently available.

Aptera . . . supposedly the first Typ-1e's late this year.
Th!nk . . . supposedy 2009 sometime
Chevy Volt . . . 2010 if we are lucky

Even the Tesla that is supposedly 'shipping' has only shipped 5 cars and people that put down $60K are told they'll have to wait a year.

Someone has got to start shipping some highway-speed electric cars! :character0029:

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I think that the gasoline engine in the hybrid Mini is a 2 cylinder 250cc engine, and it can be run at it's ideal RPM to drive the generator.

[KarenRei]

Yes, that's a serial hybrid. Serial hybrids tend to slightly underperform parallel hybrids at high speeds. A Prius is a parallel hybrid. A mini has worse aerodynamics than a Prius. In short, you shouldn't expect better mileage on it than on a Prius. Especially not that much better.

Given how easy it is to play games with MPG figures, I'll go with physics.

[n_dawg]

KarenRei: What drive cycle does the 130 mpg figure for the Aptera Typ-1h come from?

[n_dawg]

Yes, that's a serial hybrid. Serial hybrids tend to slightly underperform parallel hybrids at high speeds. A Prius is a parallel hybrid.

What really matters is how well it does on the driving cycle. (in that it determines the number you're allowed to slap on it). So it'll have a higher city than highway.

I also question the assertion that series hybrids perform worst than parallel hybrids at high speed. It's not like we have a large body of vehicles out there to compare. Serial hybrids run the engine at the optimum rotational velocity, and avoid the losses of a mechanical transmission (which is why diesel electric trains use them).

PML also put super-capacitors sized to the kinetic energy of the vehicle, and anti-lock braking and acceleration to avoid energy being wasted spinning the wheels skidding, so their regen should have even higher efficiency than either Aptera's or the Prius's. They also used Lithium Ion Poly batteries for high charging efficiency compared with the Prius. That's huge for city cycle, when aero losses are lower.

A mini has worse aerodynamics than a Prius.


True.

Mini Cooper S Clubman: 8.3 sq ft.

Prius: 6.24 sq ft.

So, the Mini should get (all else being equal) 3/4ths the mileage of the Prius. It seems unlikely that the Mini's drivetrain is sufficiently more efficient over the Prius's that it raises the mileage from 36 mpg (est) to 80 mpg.

In short, you shouldn't expect better mileage on it than on a Prius. Especially not that much better.

Given how easy it is to play games with MPG figures, I'll go with physics.

Absolutely agree.

EDIT: According to my calculations (21 kWh battery pack, 5 hours driving at (assuming) 55 mph), it comes out to 95 Wh/mi for the Mini QED, versus 83 Wh/mi with the Aptera.

[speculawyer]

KarenRei: What drive cycle does the 130 mpg figure for the Aptera Typ-1h come from?
I'm not Karen . . . but . . . according to the performance tab on this page on the Aptera web site (http://aptera.com/details.php):

Sure, it's asymptotic, after 350-400 miles it eventually plummets to around 130 MPG at highway speeds where it will stay all day until you plug it back in and charge it up.

So that seems to be the mileage for unlimited highway driving speeds.

[speculawyer]

EDIT: According to my calculations (21 kWh battery pack, 5 hours driving at (assuming) 55 mph), it comes out to 95 Wh/mi for the Mini QED, versus 83 Wh/mi with the Aptera.
The Aptera sure is efficient. I assume you calculated the 83Wh/mi with the 10KwH battery/120 miles = 83Wh/him

Thus, if you equipped the Aptera with the 28KwH Li-Ion battery battery pack EnerDel made for Th!ink, the Aptera could have a range of over 300 miles! Of course that 28KwH Li-Ion battery pack alone supposedly costs around $14K to $16K. I assume the 10KwH Aptera battery costs much less.
http://www.gm-volt.com/i/think_pack.JPG
http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/03/exclusive-interview-with-enerdel-chairman-charles-gassenheimer/

Edit: Or using the 16KwH battery slated for the Chevy Volt, the Aptera could go some 192 miles (whereas the Volt only goes 40 miles).

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Nobody has mentioned the Toyota 1/X:

http://tyt.tnpv.net/Image/2008/02/TYT2008020714978_PV.jpg (http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/View?id=TYT2008020168848)

926 pounds (1/3 the Prius).

4 passengers

2X the fuel mileage of the Prius

[KarenRei]

Just so I'm up to speed: is the goal here to discuss concept cars, or just vehicles that companies are planning to bring into production?

[speculawyer]

Just so I'm up to speed: is the goal here to discuss concept cars, or just vehicles that companies are planning to bring into production?
It is hard to control a discussion, but my preference would be to discuss production cars since concept cars won't ever be available (unless they are going to change into production cars).

[garygid]

I prefer to hear about production, near-production, or even
likely-to-become-production vehicles.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

There is a pretty good chance that the 1/X is "real". Apparently, Toyota signed a very large deal with the world's largest carbon fiber company, the day before they showed it for the first time.

Another car that will compete with the Aptera, is the Loremo:

http://www.dorstenerzeitung.de/storage/pic/dz/dorsten/443738_3_0711DN-LOREMO.jpg (http://evolution.loremo.com/)
It is estimated to be $22,000 and be available ... wait for it ... in 2010.

[JakesOnline]

To be a competing car I would expect it to start production around the same time as Aptera. No later than 2010 I suppose. Seems the entire industry is jumping in on the 2010 bandwagon.

[wcabdefense]

That seems to be when the Vehicle X Prize gets awarded (10M) which is a pretty good way to shake out the technology. My guess is that 10-15 will be serious competitors for the prize, and about 2-4 non-winners will be around in 5 years at the 100mpg level. They need to have 10,000 unit-per-year capacity to win, so the pressure is on to ramp up production pretty soon. You cannot pull that off overnight, but I see a lot of lesser ideas hitting the trash can in 2011 when mass production becomes unwieldy. The Competition will just leave a lot of people with limited production vehicles that were good ideas but not commercially feasible.

[JoeReal]

To be a competing car I would expect it to start production around the same time as Aptera. No later than 2010 I suppose. Seems the entire industry is jumping in on the 2010 bandwagon.

The main reason for the 2010 bandwagon is that Congress passed new CAFE standards in late 2007. Therefore, with the new vehicle design platforms generally taking 36 months to deliver to market, the 2010 bandwagon has been "magically" formed and now explained...

If you doubt me, you can search all about it.

[KarenRei]

Huh, I never thought of that. Good point, though ;) I'd also explain why the companies to whom that's irrelevant, such as Aptera, Tesla, and Th!nk, are the only ones I can think of who are releasing before 2010.

That's kind of disturbing, actually, to think that they're only doing it to meet CAFE standards. Because it means that if CAFE standards were cut, we could see another round of program terminations. Well, at least this time they're selling vehicles, not just leasing.

[JoeReal]

Huh, I never thought of that. Good point, though ;) I'd also explain why the companies to whom that's irrelevant, such as Aptera, Tesla, and Th!nk, are the only ones I can think of who are releasing before 2010.

That's kind of disturbing, actually, to think that they're only doing it to meet CAFE standards. Because it means that if CAFE standards were cut, we could see another round of program terminations. Well, at least this time they're selling vehicles, not just leasing.

And to add the reality of pain and suffering from the price of more than $4/gal gasoline! And GM shutting production of big guzzlers and other vehicle manufacturers getting a severe blow to their big macho guzzler vehicles, the confluence of these factors including those mentioned in earlier posts, will make the trend irreversible this time come 2010. BEV's, REEV's or vehicles with an all electric mode and plug-in capabilities will be here to stay.

[speculawyer]

I found a low-tech low-budget competitor to the Aptera. GreenVehicles will be selling the Triac EV . . . another Tadpole 3-wheeler. It can supposedly go 80mph and has a 100 mile range . . . and it sells for the somewhat low price of $20K. Looks crappy compared to the Aptera though. But they are supposedly starting to ship next month though.
http://www.goodcleantech.com/images/Triac1.jpg

http://www.greenvehicles.com/

[garygid]

Triac EV: about 23 kWh of batteries, charges from 240v electric dryer
connection (probably 20 amp) in about 6 hours and, for convenience,
it can charge from 120v (probably 15 amps), taking substantially longer.

Deposit $2000 (10% of $20,000 base price).
No indication of how many deposits have been accepted.
No promise of delivery this year (2008).

[speculawyer]

No promise of delivery this year (2008).

Well . . . this:
http://www.greenvehicles.com/forms/reserve.html

says:
Estimated Delivery Schedule
We are working hard to complete our production vehicles as soon as possible in order to make delivery to our very anxious customers. We are down to the final details.

We expect our first vehicles to arrive in San Jose and Mill Valley, California in late July or August of 2008. These first vehicles are already allocated for test driving, touring and other promotional purposes. You will be able to reserve a time to take a test drive by calling into one of our phone numbers AFTER JULY 30, 2008 (NO TEST DRIVE RESERVATIONS WILL BE TAKEN PRIOR TO THAT DATE).

We expect to produce approximately 50 – 100 vehicles per month commencing in September 2008. We expect to ramp up to approximately 200-300 vehicles per month by Q1 of 2009.

But who knows? The entire freeway-speed electric car industry is pretty much vaporware at this point. (Including the 'real' ones like Tesla and Th!nk)

They list a show room in San Jose . . . I'll try to drop by.

[garygid]

As I said, no promise of any deliveries in 2008.

They also say:
"Green Vehicles reserves the right to use for its own promotional and
marketing purposes, and not make available for sale, any number
of vehicles in its absolute discretion. Delivery dates will depend upon
demand and the number of vehicles that are produced."

But, yes, please do drop by their location and keep us posted.

[Leoj707]

Yeah, and it looks like they are not using an escrow for the deposit, you send them your $ directly. Makes me hesitant, I think I would defiantly have to do a test drive before putting any $ down.

For my tastes it looks like the only upside of the Triac EV vs. the Aptera is the possibility of an earlier release date.

[Leoj707]

On the bottom of the Triac reservation form:
“At the present time, demand for our vehicles greatly exceeds the available supply. If you are an individual interested in a vehicle in 2008, we highly recommend that you send in a Reservation Form and your fully refundable 10% deposit ASAP. If you are interested in a dealership opportunity, please send in your Dealer Application ASAP! We expect to begin selecting our Dealership Locations and begin delivering our first vehicles to these dealers in August of 2008. We expect to deliver our first vehicles to individual customers that have already sent in a Reservation Form and paid a 10% deposit in September of 2008.”

How are they going to send any cars to the dealers that sign up if they don’t even have enough cars to send to individuals? I wonder if the “dealers” have to pay for their $100K inventory upfront.

Sorry I can't post proper URLs yet:
greenvehicles.com/forms/dealapp.html

[PaulO]

The center of gravity definitely looks a lot lower than the Aptera Type1. The front has a very narrow wheel base even with the low CG. I would be a little concerned about stability. I will try to check out the dealer next week.

Glad to see a little more competition. It will create better cars for all of us.

[mmalc]

They list a show room in San Jose . . . I'll try to drop by.
I did that (http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?p=6882#post6882)...& here (http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=6882&postcount=22).

[Aptera#965]

It's fugly :)

[Sloopy]

I'll take that $1 I was going to bet that the Aptera is nearly 8' wide, and along with $1 from each of 1999 other interested persons, we could reserve one of these imaginary vehicles.

[garygid]

Green Vehicles Inc.
648 N King Rd
San Jose, CA 95133 Map
(408) 254-1443

Calling, I just get a recording after about 10 rings.

I Google "648 N. King, San Jose, CA" and get two businesses
at N. King Road at that address. The map shows a location
(that could be off, of course) with large industrial buildings around.
The indicated area on N. King Rd is SE of the intersection with Dobbin Dr.
and NW of the intersection with Las Plumas Ave

Is that where you went?

Another business at that same address is:
Prime Deco (apparently Furniture Manufacturers)
648 N King Rd
San Jose, CA 95133-1715
(209) 948-2861 (old number, changed to (408) 287-7898)

At this 287-7898 phone number I get a recording saying
that she is out, and should return on 11 July.

Another business is:
Ebike Wholesalers
648 N King Rd
San Jose, CA 95133
(408) 254-1965
I also get a recording here.

Maybe I am calling too early, before 9:30 am

[JoeReal]

Is this a coincidence? There are vacant buildings there around Emma Prusch Park in King Road.

We conduct annual Scionwood Exchange at Emma Prusch Park, which is 647 S. King Road. I'm a member of California Rare Fruit Grower and know that part very well.

[speculawyer]

Another business is:
Ebike Wholesalers
648 N King Rd
That could be them.

Here is another interesting factoid I noticed. The Ehab Youssef, an intellectual property lawyer mentioned in this Wired article savaging the Zap scam (http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-04/ff_zapped) is listed on that green vehicles site when you click on the contact us button. It looks like he managed to find himself an alternative green car business.

I can't see to find out where those 'greenvehicles' are made. I assume somewhere in the far east. What is the name of the original foreign maker?

[garygid]

Of course, this is presumably North, not South King.

[JoeReal]

Of course, this is presumably North, not South King.

The difference is but one number, and they are separated by freeway overpass that separates north and south king.

[JakesOnline]

That could be them.

Here is another interesting factoid I noticed. The Ehab Youssef, an intellectual property lawyer mentioned in this Wired article savaging the Zap scam (http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine/16-04/ff_zapped) is listed on that green vehicles site when you click on the contact us button. It looks like he managed to find himself an alternative green car business.

Ehab Youssef interview. He talks about his first experience in the EV world and says "I'm not going to mention names" .. "there's a lot of vaporware" (6 minutes in).

Triac, "by the first week of August". Less than 10 vehicles. Then promotional tours. Then first round of 50 reserved vehicle deliveries by the end of September. Reserve today for delivery by end of October. Delivery times are on reservation form (http://www.greenvehicles.com/forms/reserve.html):

First round, 5 speed stick shift. Leave in third gear for normal city driving. Use low gears for starting with heavy loads or for going uphill. Use higher gears for increased top speed on highway. Automatic to come later.

Large format iron-phosphate-lithium. Manufactured by "no name" battery company and branded Green Vehicles. Proprietary battery management system.

Nascar style safety cage (sounds familiar)
Frontal impact redirection, side impact bracing. (sounds familiar)

Interview MP3 file, and article with embeded player:

http://www.evcast.com/l1/evcast/appdata/blog/00000030.mp3

http://www.evcast.com/members/evcast/blog/VIEW/00000001/00000030/EVcast-23-Interview-with-Ehab-Youssef-from-Green-Vehicles.html


After the interview they talk about Zap and they say Youssef is still in litigation (re: lawsuit against ZAP)

After listening to this interview, I feel Triac is Aptera's main competitor.

[Tamerlin]

After listening to this interview, I feel Triac is Apteras main competitor.

Then I'm not concerned. The Triac looks like an old VW Bug after being beaten with an ugly stick.

[JakesOnline]

Then I'm not concerned. The Triac looks like an old VW Bug after being beaten with an ugly stick.

It's also $7k cheaper...

I like the looks from the side and rear. The front is a little too Zap-esque.

I have a feeling Aptera will beat the Triac 1 year warranty.

[Tamerlin]

It's also $7k cheaper.

Sure. And you can get a Tata for under $5000. Just don't get worried with the doors fall off.

[JakesOnline]

Sure. And you can get a Tata for under $5000. Just don't get worried with the doors fall off.

You mean $2,500 for 4 wheels, a back seat and 50 MPG? Are you kidding? I would jump at the chance. It's revolutionary.

A $27k Aptera will rock the boat. A $10k Aptera will change the world.

HJ9iNZeUOe4

[garygid]

Do you mean Tata for under $20,000? or under $5000 ???
Where? When? How?

[JoeReal]

There are two Tata model that I know, one the base model is sold for $2,500 and the other one is a luxury model, sold for $7,000.

None of the cars will pass the US Standards of Safety.

I've read it from Sacramento Bee Newspaper yesterday on page 1 of Section G.

[Matthijs]

ABG (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/01/10/heres-the-2-500-tata-nano-the-indian-peoples-car/) The Tata Nano made worldwide news coverage with his introduction but it seems they cannot keep the prize at $2500 because of the rise of raw materials. ABG (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/07/10/material-prices-pushing-up-the-cost-of-the-tata-nano/)

[JakesOnline]

Do you mean Tata for under $20,000? or under $5000 ???
Where? When? How?

If you were not able to see the video, here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ9iNZeUOe4

[Mzbhavn]

I have long been a Toyota fan - Celica, Camery, the FJ40 and FZJ80. I have also had a Mazda RX7. I was thinking about getting something smaller than my FZJ80 which has served me very well thru several winters in the high sierra snow country and off road. I find myself in the great central valley once again and wanted something smaller to run to and from the foothills. Zoom Zoom first came to mind - the new Mazda MX-5 miata but at best still only gets 28mpg, yes it is a roadster and one of the popular auto magazine testing staff liked driving it more than the B.M.W. Z-3 or 4 (can't remember). The miata cost in the ballpark of $29,000.00 the same as the Aptera and has had a good track record. I do have a slightly heavy foot and like driving in the foothills. I also travel to L.A. several times a year on buisness and worry about the Grapevine. I know The aptera would be a great vehicle for the savings on fuel costs and also feed my hunger for something exotic but I can't help but feel a little concerned about power on the road (passing hill cimbs etc...) and power consumtion (battery life/charge ) on roads similar to the grapevine. I work for an electric utility in hydro electric so not going into the mountians is really not an option. I realize this it not my trusty FJ40, but electric cars do not scare me. The company I work for has issued me an electric RAV4 before great for highway and paved streets but not to great for field work ie.. dirt roads or tring to go over curbs at slow speeds (great for sneaking up on construction workers (no sound)). Test drives are needed.... I guess I might not be the average Aptera fan. But I do have a reservation number for a hybrid.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I'm not clear on what your question is?

[Sloopy]

Mzbhavn was just chatting, but expressed concerns (questions) about Aptera's power (ability to climb the grapevine) and power consumption.

[c0mp13x]

...The miata cost in the ballpark of $29,000.00 the same as the Aptera and has had a good track record. I do have a slightly heavy foot and like driving in the foothills. I also travel to L.A. several times a year on buisness and worry about the Grapevine. I know The aptera would be a great vehicle for the savings on fuel costs and also feed my hunger for something exotic but I can't help but feel a little concerned about power on the road (passing hill cimbs etc...) and power consumtion (battery life/charge ) on roads similar to the grapevine... The company I work for has issued me an electric RAV4 before great for highway and paved streets but not to great for field work ie.. dirt roads or tring to go over curbs at slow speeds...
Mzbhavn - I understand you concerns about the Aptera, and your want for a "performance-type" vehicle. You have a big advantage over many of us because of your first-hand experience with a RAV4-EV. If you want acceleration better than 10+ seconds 0-60 (Prius like acceleration), then you should probably be looking elsewhere. I think 0-60 in ~10 seconds is plenty for me, considering the electric vehicle advantages - and I'm a sports car driver.

Now, as for the Grapevine, that is a pretty decent challenge. 40 miles and a elevation change of over 4000 feet. This is the mountain pass that separates the great California central agricultural valley from the beginning of the LA basin. For those of you that would like more information on the Grapevine (or the Tejon pass, US99), I've included some interesting links below.

I don't think we can accurately assess the Typ-1's ability to traverse this pass until we can throw an actual production vehicle out on the road and try it. And maybe... this will be a good testing ground for Aptera when they get closer to production. Are you guys in Carlsbad reading this?

A pretty good proof of climbing ability for one of Aptera's competitors was recently shown in this video of the Mitsubishi MiEV. Certainly the capabilities of modern electric drivetrains (i.e. batteries & controllers) has advanced significantly since the RAV4-EV you drove. The Aptera is similar to the MiEV in battery range and hopefully should have similar (or better, lighter weight) climbing performance:

Mitsubishi-Motors.tv (http://www.mitsubishi-motors.tv/#navi05) (Select the 5th tab all the way on the right, then pick the red MiEV video dated 2007/11/07)


***************************************

Grapevine info:

The engineering challenge of US99, the Grapevine (http://www.gbcnet.com/ushighways/US99/US99g_contents.html)

US99 Tejon pass pics (http://www.scvresources.com/highways/us_99/us99032.htm)


In October of 1991 artist Christo installed 1760 yellow umbrellas in the Tejon Pass (Grapevine). Simultaneously, 1340 blue umbrellas were installed in Ibaraki, Japan. These umbrellas were a monstrous 28 feet in diameter and the installation a huge engineering undertaking. The umbrellas were seen for just 18 days and then taken down and recycled. As awe inspiring a artistic and engineering feat as this was, it was sadly marred by a fatality when one of the umbrellas toppled in the strong winds of the Tejon Pass.

http://www.christojeanneclaude.net/sharedMedia/um/full/um5y.jpg

http://www.christojeanneclaude.net/sharedMedia/um/full/um2y.jpg

[evolutionmovement]

The Aptera shouldn't get altitude sickness like an ICE, though the generator on the hybrid will be straining and running more often. Guess we can't tell until someone actually drives one.

[sk8ndad]

I was reading that the smart fortwo had an EV model being tested in England, but it also looks like one will be available in the US, I've also seen that smart is planning on testing the EV in California: http://www.environmentalmotors.com/smartCoupe.html

[speculawyer]

Some more info on the mysterious 'GreenVehicles' . . . it is hard to tell if they are real or quasi-scam like ZAP.
Hello.

The first Triacs and Buckshots for sale will arrive near the end of
August. These will be available for test driving and inspection for
potential buyers, but this first production line will only be sold to new
dealerships due to a limited supply. The Moose is expected to trail these
first two EVs by 8 to 10 weeks.

We have had a tremendous amount of interest in both vehicles and
dealerships, and are currently evaluating distributor applications
carefully to ensure high quality locations. If you choose to, you can
also pre-register (form online) with a 10% fully refundable fee, so that
your name will be entered into the waiting list to receive a vehicle on a
first-come-first-served basis. For the short term, Green Vehicles will
sell a vehicle directly to you until there is a dealership in your area.
Delivery can be arranged.

In the coming weeks please continue to check the website for updates.
Customers can now download two new forms: 1) A pre-registration form. 2)
A dealership application. Soon thereafter we will post a schedule that
will keep you up to date with vehicle arrival times and the like; and, of
course, several new dealership locations will be posted as we qualify
applicants. Lastly, we are finalizing all options pricing, and we will
post interior pictures and dimensions for all the EVs shortly.

Thanks for your interest.

Mike Ryan
Green Vehicles

OT: Man, that Christo stuff is silly.

[KarenRei]

In fact, the thinner air should be a good thing :) At 5,000 feet, the air is only ~80% as dense as it would be at sea level. Less drag.

[speculawyer]

I was reading that the smart fortwo had an EV model being tested in England, but it also looks like one will be available in the US, I've also seen that smart is planning on testing the EV in California: http://www.environmentalmotors.com/smartCoupe.html
Oil came close to $150 a barrel today . . . I think just about every electric concept/test will be made real. Thus, the Smart EV is being made real and I suspect the Cooper Mini EV will enter real production.

Hell, even that idea about re-starting the EV-1 assembly line seems like a good idea at this point. With $5 gas and today's improved battery technology, I could see that car selling today.

I just watched "Who killed the Electric Car?" the other day . . . it was much better than I thought it would be. GM really look like boneheads now considering they killed that product and now their stock is at lows not seen in 50 years and they keep touting the Volt as a potential savior. What idiots. I gotta say the EV-1 sure looked ugly though, IMHO.

[n_dawg]

It's gotten to the point where I see most cars as aerodynamically offensive.

[Shonsu]

ZPM/MDI Air Car
Size: 6 passenger
Speed: 96 MPH
Range: 848 Miles (hmm sounds too good to be true)
Price: $17,800
Fuel: Compressed Air and?
At speeds over 35mph the Compressed Air Vehicle uses small amounts of fuel–either gasoline, propane, ethanol or bio fuels–to heat air inside a heating chamber as it enters the engine. This process produces emissions of only 0.141lbs of CO2 per mile.
Date: Reservations this year for delivery in 2010

*** See note below***


I am really interested in this one along with the Aptera, of course, but the ZPM is much cheaper and will supposedly seat 6. On a side note, the ZPM site pushed the reservation date back to mid 2009.


Note: I had to take out the URL in the quote because of the forum rule of not allowing URLs until after making 4 posts.

[KarenRei]

The Air Car is a classic case of eternally shifting schedules; it's schedule has been pushed back over and over again. And thank goodness; air compressors are horribly inefficient. Not to mention that compressed air has very poor volumetric energy density. MDI often tries to hide this by glossing over range and speed stats on what comes from air and what comes from the fuel they burn (depends on the model).

[daddio]

It would be nice if we can organize this forum's topic (TITLE) by price range for ease of reference my having titles like:

Competing cars ~< $30K (although the :aptera: is at the of this one..)

Competing cars ~ $30K - 40K
Competing cars ~ $40K - 50K
etc...

Many of us have budgets to be mindful of...

Otherwise if you respect the rules of this forum IT IS GREAT. KUDOS to the folks involved

[DonC]

In looking through the postings here I didn't notice the Mitsubishi i-Miev. That would appear to be a very direct competitor. Top speed of at least 80 mph. A range of at least 100 miles. Not sure of costs but probably in the $25K - $28K range.

Production starts in 2009. NA might get them late 2009 or, more likely, 2010 with nation wide distribution.

These are being fleet tested now so they are definitely real.

They also have something like AWD since there are hub motors for the two front wheels and one motor driving the back two wheels. Will definitely fit in a standard parking space. Will definitely not have Jetson curb appeal.

[JakesOnline]

In looking through the postings here I didn't notice the Mitsubishi i-Miev. That would appear to be a very direct competitor.

Some say $19,000... Sign me up.

75NUD5jRmko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75NUD5jRmko

[Jonathan Sek]

It's gotten to the point where I see most cars as aerodynamically offensive.

That's a big 10-4, good buddy. Because of their look and design, I refer to most of them as "four wheel bricks". Changing the front grill, headlights and the windshield slope does not make each of these 4-wheelers that distinguishable from each other. Most are designed around a front ICE engine, 2 or 4 wheel drive train and four or more passengers.

And we have how many automakers worldwide essentially making the same vehicle types? So much for the free market. Where are the 100+ mpg single passenger commute vehicles? Let alone the EVs.

[Jonathan Sek]

Some say $19,000... Sign me up.

Did the factory guy really say that wind turbines in the front would "capture energy that has previously not been utilized"? Why don't they put a huge wind turbine on the car's roof so we can generate energy to drive for free and power our houses? Haha!

I guess a small amount of energy could be generated via wind when the car is parked. Just make sure you park into the wind.

[DonC]

"Some say $19,000... Sign me up."

Good timing for discussing price. Mitsubishi just released the pricing for Japan and the i-MIEV is about $37,900. A bit above $19,000, which isn't realistic given the price of the battery packs. Of course Japanese domestic pricing is not the same as NA pricing, and I'd expect this to be more in the $28,000 range.

[JakesOnline]

There are 2 different i-MiEV models, the Sport and the Go. The Sport seems like it would be more expensive. Wind turbines in the grill seem like a ridiculous gimmick to me.

i-MiEV Go is on the road today for testing by power companies.

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/special/ev/forpracticaluse/images/ev_forpracticaluse_im_01.jpg

USfrtnr9Jmw

[DonC]

I think only one model is being offered for sale in 2009/2010. The sport model is for "the future".

[jdbgn]

I see a lot of speculation along with smoke and mirrors with some big dollar signs thrown in for good measure.
I'm betting on the Aptera to produce what they say they can.
Just as an aside. My pencils have erasers on them because I have been known to make a mistake or two.

[Mzbhavn]

Well in my situation right now that is what Aptera is up against, the miata or a toyota hybrid of some sort either a Highlander or a hybrid mini van to replace my wifes camry (growing family). I would eiter drive the camry or something new (miata). It would have been a no brainer if the Aptera was a four seater to put my wife at ease if I had to pick up the kids however the kids are not on my way to work. I guess I am just voicing concern. I hope this little car company can change the world. My used FZJ80 will be paid off in February and I have pretty much figured out that between gas and the car payment the aptera will be a zero sum and not effect the budget at all even if I didn't sell the FZJ80 (probably not get much for it anyway even if I put an ad in the toyota land cruiser clubs magazine)(No, I will not be selling my 16mpg FJ40) I would love to save a little each month to offset the cost of replacing the battery pack in 5 years. However the way things are going I just hope to save a little to help the kids thru college. I consider myself a average guy and I think buying a vehicle like this is a step more people should take in the future not just for the economics but for their kids future. I guess I just wanted to voice a real life opinion in a real life situation of what real people are going to struggle with in the choice of there next vehicle. And that in my case this is what Aptera is up against Toyota and Mazda. And I don't care if the aptera has a leather option once these hit the market people will modify them with whatever suits them. I plan on stick on vehicle graphics.:aptera:

[sk8ndad]

Looks like Mini is hitting the electric market (http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9959273?nclick_check=1) :)

[Tamerlin]

Did the factory guy really say that wind turbines in the front would "capture energy that has previously not been utilized"? Why don't they put a huge wind turbine on the car's roof so we can generate energy to drive for free and power our houses? Haha!

I guess a small amount of energy could be generated via wind when the car is parked. Just make sure you park into the wind.

Next someone is going to put a sail on the roof of a car.

[speculawyer]

Looks like Mini is hitting the electric market (http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_9959273) :)
I assume these are conversion units being done in small quantities. They've announced that they are going to do a normal electric production model though. It will probably make an OK electric (better than most gas to electric conversions), but since it wasn't originally designed as an electric I doubt it will have great specs.

2009 to 2012 are definitely going to be the dawn of a new electric age. I think there are over 10 highway-speed electrics or series-hybrids that will be coming to market during that time period. Currently there are pretty much zero.

(Yeah, the Tesla Roadster exists in theory but only 5 or so have been delivered and the first two production runs are completely sold out. Th!nk supposedly started up their production line at the end of last year but I have not read any official reports of customers being delivered new units.)

[KarenRei]

Next someone is going to put a sail on the roof of a car.

Done.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Sail_wagon.jpg/800px-Sail_wagon.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_sailing

[KarenRei]

The reason I don't hold out much hope for a reasonable priced EV that's not hyperstreamlined is that there's no working around the fact that batteries are currently expensive. If you don't hyperstreamline, you need more of them. I think the only realistic hope of getting an EV that's not hyperstreamlined for a reasonable price is if the company subsidizes it significantly. Which may well happen in some cases, mind you.

[RainCaster]

Here's another Tesla wannabe- click here (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-9997197-72.html).

[jdbgn]

$300,000??
Let me check my wallet.
Nah.
I think I'll wait for the Aptera, delivery seems to be about the same time frame.

[jstdadd]

Good luck getting the same bang for the buck as you do with the Aptera. For $27,000 you get 120 mile range and two adults for electric only. The Hybrid also gives outstanding mileage at $30,000 (120 mpg after the first 150 miles.) I don't see anything being produced that has the same range/$$ for two passengers or more.

[Matthijs]

Here's another Tesla wannabe- click here (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17912_3-9997197-72.html).

Well one thing I really like about the Lightning is that the car uses "Hi-Pa Drive" technology form PML Flightlink. If that technology works and being used more and more it will be amazing for EV use. The Aptera could use 1 motor and that would replace the use of a diskbrake, motor and 2 drivebelts. For now this motors are very expensive.

[speculawyer]

The reason I don't hold out much hope for a reasonable priced EV that's not hyperstreamlined is that there's no working around the fact that batteries are currently expensive. If you don't hyperstreamline, you need more of them. I think the only realistic hope of getting an EV that's not hyperstreamlined for a reasonable price is if the company subsidizes it significantly. Which may well happen in some cases, mind you.
Yeah, I'd like to see something that is in between the Aptera and the Volt . . . streamlined like the Aptera but 4-passenger like the Volt. I guess the Aptera people may be working on that right now as the next act.

[GoodCheer]

(....) The Aptera could use 1 motor and that would replace the use of a diskbrake, motor and 2 drivebelts. For now this motors are very expensive.

If the Aptera were going to go with in-wheel motors, I would humbly suggest that by powering the two front wheels you could:

-Recapture more energy through regen braking (any biker knows you can't stop fast with the rear brake).
-Not sacrifice much acceleration, since the Aptera's acceleration is power limited, not traction limited.
-Make the Aptera much less unattractive as a snow vehicle.
-Facilitate traction and stability control (if the inside wheel loses traction because you're cornering too fast the VMS would know it immediately).

By going either route (wheel motors anywhere), I think enough space would be freed up behind the front seats to make the "infant seat" into a pretty tight, but 'real' third seat. I would think that would be worth its weight in PLM Flightlink stocks.

[jstdadd]

Actually, natural gas prices are tumbling...faster than oil, in fact... http://customer1.barchart.com/cgi-bin/mri/vsnchart.htx?data=a&sym=NGQ8&showcc=yes

If that link doesn't work, go to http://unitedfutures.com and choose "Quotes and Charts"; about halfway down is Petroleum Futures, and in the middle is Natural Gas. On the right you can choose a chart.

[xpguy]

I came to Aptera after waiting over a year for a Spark Comet.

I have over 30 emails from Michael Papp that promised the Comet by October 2007. This is what the website said just a few weeks ago about the Comet.

Spark Electric Vehicles Comet EV
From the Spark site - this is currently NOT available, "Available 2008, When we say it is ready, not a moment sooner!"

The COMET is a Spark-EV EXCLUSIVE - Coachwork designed by renowned automotive designer Gianpaolo Alvino of Italy, with drivetrain designed and built in America, this vehicle is manufactured by Spark-EV in the USA.

Purpose-built as a luxury electric commuter vehicle, the Carbon-Fiber body, leather interior, premium electronics, navigation, and entertainment system, all testify that no expense was spared in the creation of this top-end vehicle.

Fully equiped with air conditioning, heat, and heads-up displays, the myth that an electric car is in some way a sacrifice is forever shattered. Superb handling, blinding acceleration, the experience is like no other.

- 90 MPH, 200 Mile Range
- Carbon Fiber/Kevlar Monocoque Body
- Luxury Interior
- Made in the USA

Here is the Spark website as of today.

Once Upon A Time - The Rise and Fall of Spark-EV

Once Upon A Time there was a man who loved cars. He was also a successful businessman that for years imported products from around the world. One day, he found he needed a new dump truck, and decided he could get one from China for under $10,000. "Impossible" said everyone. After two years of research, work, and ALOT of money, Wuzheng NA was born, and this man became the first person to ever legally import Chinese vehicles into the United States for road use.
Now, as this man began importing more and more trucks, he found that he had room in the containers for something small.....hmmmm...small electric cars! So Spark-EV was born, and this man became the first to import Chinese Low-Speed vehicles into the United States, the Flybo / 6000ZK.

More models followed - The Metropolis, the Quiet, the Transporter, and although all sold exceptionally well, they were all low-speed vehicles. Time to go full speed. So this man hired an Italian designer, designed the engineering himself, and the Comet was born. The Panda, Zotye, DFM-7 followed, and all was well..

Well, perhaps not all - Spark-EV was run by this man on a shoestring, both by choice and by necessity. Being self-employed since he was 13 years old, he was taught not to spend money recklessly. The computers & paperwork were in a home office. The manufacturing was completed in a local warehouse. Since there were to be distributors, let them have the nice offices & showrooms, things are running smoothly just like this, thank you very much.

So One Day, a few distributors ordered and paid for cars, one from Arkansas, one from Texas. The Arkansas dealer was sent two vehicles for their grand opening for free, since they were having an imminent grand-opening and needed something on the showroom floor (you can see our cars on their home page pictures). The Arkansas distributors, however, began to grow impatient with the time taken to deliver the cars they ordered/paid for, and decided to visit the man's operations (This man's office was his home, remember)

On the morning of their un-announced visit the Arkansas distributors, saying this as kindly as possible, went stark, raving mad. Whatever they were expecting, it was not an office being run out of a home. The GOOD news was that their cars were in the Port of Newark, in a 40 foot container, so all was well. The man provided the Arkansas distributors with all the paperwork required to go see the cars for themselves.

Instead of confirming the existence & delivery of their vehicles, the Arkansas distributors visited the local police department. "It MUST be a scam, he has an office in his house!" The man then visited the police department to explain, and also give the same paperwork to the officer so he could confirm the existence of the vehicles, where they were, etc.

The next thing the man knew, he was being arrested for Theft by Deception. While attempting to post bail, the local police came and seized all the equipment and paperwork required for the man to import or take delivery of vehicles. The Arkansas distributors then contacted the Texas distributor, and advised "it's a scam, he has an office in his house!" Both distributors demanded full refunds.

The problem the man had was so simple, nobody seems to understand it - All the money was sent to China for cars. Without the seized paperwork and equipment, no cars can be imported, no deliveries can be made, no cars can be sold. No money can be made.

For three months now this man has begged on a daily basis for the return of his paperwork and equipment so he could sell vehicles that were rotting away in port to pay people back. The police department won't even return phone calls. As of today, the man found, all vehicles that reached port have been seized to pay storage / container fees. All orders in China have been canceled. "Refund" is not a word the Chinese understand. It is now, alas, all gone.

For all those that supported this effort This man sincerely, from the bottom of his heart, thanks you. The business is gone, the money is gone, the cars are gone, the house with the home office is gone. The dream of an affordable electric vehicle from this man is gone.

Who killed the electric car? You, David, Roger, Rick and Dick. Roger, for being the keyboard commando who never took a chance of your own, David, for not waiting three more days, Rick, for blindly listening to others without checking things out yourself, and Dick, who should have retired already, for not asking any questions when investigating this matter.

UPDATE - 7/2/2008 This man received a letter today from a law firm, demanding that he "Cease and Desist From This Conduct" (This Web Page) which they consider to be "defamatory, malicious, untrue" etc. This man has posted nothing of the sort, so the webpage stays. (So there IS a positive in having lost everything and having nothing!)

[xpguy]

I also am on the waiting list for the VentureOne.

[xpguy]

Renderings of the Comet.

http://static.huddler.com/imgrepo/c/cc/comet3.jpg
http://static.huddler.com/imgrepo/7/7b/comet1.jpg
http://static.huddler.com/imgrepo/5/5b/comet2.jpg

[Matthijs]

Link (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=560)
Link (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=72)

[speculawyer]

Is the ZAP Alias a scam?

[Fjord]

Is the ZAP Alias a scam?

Yes. In fact, for any question of the form "Is the ZAP ___ a scam?" the answer would still be yes, except "used, original ZAPPY scooter."

Right now, finding an honest maker of electric cars is like finding an honest 3-card monte game. Everyone wants to believe, which is why the vultures swoop in.

I hope Aptera is the real deal, because this industry needs one.

[Aptera#1434]

With major funding now from Google, doesn't it make sense that Aptera is the real deal?

[Apt3448]

With major funding now from Google, doesn't it make sense that Aptera is the real deal?
Aptera indeed seems to be the most realistic, most promising, way to get to the future.

[speculawyer]

Yes. In fact, for any question of the form "Is the ZAP ___ a scam?" the answer would still be yes, except "used, original ZAPPY scooter."
Right now, finding an honest maker of electric cars is like finding an honest 3-card monte game. Everyone wants to believe, which is why the vultures swoop in.

Well, the ZAP Xebra is not a scam . . . it is just a slow dumpy chinese import. But the ZAP-X is a scam. And the ZAP Alias . . . a good chance of being a scam. There is this picture of a prototype, but it could be a mock-up for all I know:
http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/06/zap-alias-06-26-08.jpg

There are some scams but I think most of the market is legit. BTW, Fjord, have you driven a Fjord lately (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm)?

[speculawyer]

Aptera indeed seems to be the most realistic, most promising, way to get to the future.
Well . . . there are a number that seem pretty real. The Aptera, Th!nk, Tesla, Smart EV, Mini-Cooper EV, Phoenix SUT/SUV, Mitsubishi i-Miev, Commuter Cars Tango, and Chevy Volt all seem pretty real (they all have at least real prototypes).

But beyond that there seem to be some less proven cars (Triac EV, VentureOne, Loremo EV, CityZenn, Miles XS500, Fisker Karma, etc.) . . . and beyond that a few scams like the ZAP-X and the Comet (listed earlier).

[JakesOnline]

Many people here seem to be very comfortable calling Zap motors a scam. They seem pretty real to me. They may have been in the wrong with the Ehab Youssef's dealership (now the maker of Triac). As far as I'm concerned they are on the "real" list, since you can actually go buy a Zap EV today.

As far as the deal gone wrong with Ehab Youssef. I posted an interview link (somewhere on this site) and after hearing what he had to say, i'm on his side and I'm looking forward to the Triac.

[sk8ndad]

I've followed ZAP for many years and they have made numerous claims that never came to fruition. They were claiming that they would be the distributer of smart among others. I kept getting excited, they kept falling shot :-)

[DonC]

- "Well in my situation right now that is what Aptera is up against, the miata or a toyota hybrid of some sort either a Highlander or a hybrid mini van to replace my wifes camry (growing family)."

The Aptera may not be the car for you since it's hardly suitable for hauling a bunch of kids and accompanying stuff around. You might want to check out the Saturn Vue Plug-in Hybrid due in 2010 (the hybrid is due out this fall). It's based on a very highly regarded European Crossover Vehicle (CUT) and may get 70 mpg. From a gas standpoint 70 mpg is pretty close to EV at 14 gallons a month.

It's not a real competitor to the Aptera but something along the lines of a standard would probably be a better choice for you.

Also you may want to keep an eye on the Poulsen Hybrid as a retrofit for that truck.

[KarenRei]

You'll use many times more gas in something like the plug-in Vue than in something like the Volt. SerialParallel hybrids make poor PHEVs.

But hey, some electric miles is better than none. :)

[BobFox321]

We are a family of 4 with an occasional foster child. Most of our trips by far have 1 or 2 persons in the vehicle. We plan on keeping the Honda Odyssey for family trips and the exciting Aptera for most of the time.

[Sloopy]

Serial hybrids make poor PHEVs.

Pity the fools buying the Aptera serial (series) hybrid?

[garygid]

Maybe she means parallel hybrids (Prius), not serial (Aptera)?

[DonC]

- "Serial hybrids make poor PHEVs. ... But hey, some electric miles is better than none."

Assuming you meant "parallel hybrid" rather than "serial hybrid" those are my feelings exactly. But I was looking at it the reverse way: a two seat BEV makes a very poor SUV.

I just don't know of another vehicle that would fit what he would need for hauling kids around -- from experience I can attest that or some unknown reason kids always seem to come with "friends" and a whole lot of "stuff." :) A serial hybrid CUT using the Volt technology would be a fantastic idea. I just don't know of one under development.

Since you're on top of all these things you may have read this report comparing the fuel displaced by parallel and serial hybrids. If not you may find it interesting:

http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=457

[n_dawg]

Anyone remember *vans*?

[KarenRei]

Bleh, that'll teach me to type late at night after getting back from a long and tiring vacation. Yes, of course, parallel PHEV = Vue & Prius = poor job at displacing gasoline compared to series like Volt and Typ-1h.

Anyways... are you looking for a 4-seater BEV or PHEV? For four-seater BEVs, I like the MiEV. Not as efficient as the Aptera, of course, and there's all of the downsides that come with that (bigger, more expensive battery, longer charge times from a given power source, etc), but hey, it seats four. :)

[DonC]

KarenRei -- "Anyways... are you looking for a 4-seater BEV or PHEV?"

Actually I'm good with with the weird looking Aptera! For my limited driving needs the limitations of the Aptera are not an issue. I was just responding to the OP with the growing family who was wondering about practicality and spousal approval.

I did, however, come up with an alternative. Phoenix Motorcars will supposedly have an CUT BEV (no wonder we get confused by all these acronyms) available in 2010. I don't think the i-Miev, which I brought up as the most direct competitor to the Aptera, is a good substitute for a SUV. It does seat four but it's just not large enough.

On the topic of spousal approval, I think that most women (no offense intended) will not go for a BEV because of the concern that they will be stranded without a way to get home. (Men on the other hand won't worry but they will actually get stranded). This is why the GM E-flex, with redundant propulsion systems, should have a huge advantage. It's actually "safer" than a standard ICE vehicle because if either the battery or the ICE goes down you can get home using the other. (I don't include the Aptera-H1 because I think people worried about running out of charge will freak out at the precieved danger of such a light weight vehicle).

[KarenRei]

Hey, I'm a woman, and so's my partner, and we're getting a Typ-1e :)

Phoenix's work is really interesting. I just hope that they A) get something out there before they go bankrupt, and B) can keep costs under control. Seems they're putting some distance between themselves and AltairNano... as much as I hate to say it, that's probably a good start. $2/Wh is just way too expensive for an EV that's supposed to be affordable to the masses. Still, if they can pull it off, I can foresee a ton of use for something like their SUV and SUT. Construction and delivery companies put a ton of miles on their vehicles, and if they can have high-power endpoints to charge while offloading... that'd be some serious savings.

[DonC]

"Hey, I'm a woman, and so's my partner, and we're getting a Typ-1e"

I wonder whose idea this is? :)

I think you are very much right on with respect to the market niche Phoenix Motorcars is targeting. Any type of service providers, from landscaping to construction, could use their SUT. If you notice Phoenix is focused on fleet sales.

The larger picture is that all these new entrants are targeting some niche or other. Tesla is going after the luxury toy market. Aptera the ultra effecient market. VentureVehicle the motorcycle market. Phoenix Motorcars the commercial market. That's a geat way for them to start because the limitations of the technology won't allow them to initially go after the mainstream customer. They can expand their market with other models and as technology evolves.

From a policy standpoint this is what makes the Volt so significant: with its technology you can use it to get 100% of the people to eliminate 80% of their oil consumption. You don't have to wait for consumer to change their minds about what they actually need in a vehicle.

[speculawyer]

From a policy standpoint this is what makes the Volt so significant: with its technology you can use it to get 100% of the people to eliminate 80% of their oil consumption. You don't have to wait for consumer to change their minds about what they actually need in a vehicle.
Yeah, I think the Volt may be a transition car that will help move people to real electric cars. The people that get the Volt will soon realize that if they plug the car in every night, they will rarely need to fill the tank. And if the range was just a bit longer, they'd never need the gas engine unless they are going on a long trip. This will probably help people accept real electric cars, at least as a 2nd car for commutting.

[jstdadd]

Shonsu:

Try to find a good number for either top speed or range. I don't think you will find two articles that have the same numbers.

[Mzbhavn]

The Aptera may not be the car for you since it's hardly suitable for hauling a bunch of kids and accompanying stuff around. You might want to check out the Saturn Vue Plug-in Hybrid due in 2010 (the hybrid is due out this fall). It's based on a very highly regarded European Crossover Vehicle (CUT) and may get 70 mpg. From a gas standpoint 70 mpg is pretty close to EV at 14 gallons a month.

It's not a real competitor to the Aptera but something along the lines of a standard would probably be a better choice for you.

Also you may want to keep an eye on the Poulsen Hybrid as a retrofit for that truck.

Ok, I did not make it clear. I am looking at a highlander hybrid for my wife. I will be getting rid of my very offroad worthy FZJ80 landcruiser. I was looking at getting a MX-5 retractible hardtop 6 speed miata before gas went to $4.00+ a gallon. The :aptera: is a perfect fit for a comuter car ( about 60 miles ruond trip into the foothills. ) as long as I can do the grapevine a couple of times a year for buisness trips. It should save me lots of money.

[n_dawg]

Hey, I'm a woman, and so's my partner, and we're getting a Typ-1e :)

:gasp: Scandalous!


You mean you're not getting Hers and Hers Apteras?! ;)

[Aptera3390]

Anybody look at the Poulsen hybrid?

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html


I could see this as a great way to save gas in heavy traffic, traffic jams, etc. If they could come up with a way to replace the power steering and brakes with electric, you could cruise along in stop and go traffic jams with your ICE turned off. That's where the majority of gas is spent in heavy traffic.

I have a 1995 Pontiac Bonneville in great condition that I could retrofit with one of those kits. On the highway, steady 65 to 70MPH, I get 28 to 30MPG, but in city driving I get 13 to 15MPG. It would almost be acceptable if I could boost the city MPG, and it's a great family car. I just hate the city mileage. As much as I love the Aptera, it's not practical for a family of 3 plus. My commute is only 7 miles, so I'm starting to think I need to look at something more useable for both daily commute and weekend trips, since I don't see a ROI with the amount of solo driving I do.

[DonC]

Anybody look at the Poulsen hybrid?


Could be a great idea. I think the problem is that your car is getting to EOL. Things are going to go wrong. I can't see putting $5K - $6K into a car which next week you may want to get rid of.

To me the best candidate for a Poulsen would be something three to four years old. Maybe something coming off lease that people aren't enthusiatic about because the mpg is low? I'm sure Poulsen is way ahead of me, but I'd be looking at kits for Ford Explorers or F-150s. There has to be a zillion of these guys on the road.

Keep in mind that going from 10mpg to 20 mpg gets you 50% of the way to not using any gas at all. The big benefits can be gained by getting guzzlers to the low normal range.

[Aptera3390]

I know what you're saying, but this car has only 78,000 miles on it and is almost worthless to sell as it is, so I thought it might be worth it for around town driving. It's far from falling apart condition. I've owned since new, and have driven it with a light foot for the most part.

[DonC]

That's very low mielage but some things, like belts, just go south with age and not use.

If you try the Poulsen, and if the car needs tires, you might also want to look at some low RR ones. At low speeds rolling resistance is more important than drag.

[oracle]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/bellaggio1770/DSC04229.jpg?t=1218006622


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/bellaggio1770/DSC04228.jpg?t=1218006646

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/bellaggio1770/DSC04227.jpg?t=1218006669

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/bellaggio1770/DSC04231.jpg?t=1218006698

I forgot its name, saw it at a car show at the Pasadena Design school. I think this has been made before the Aptera, but heard that the creator (Stobar) has never seeked partners to make more of it. It is said to get about 140 mpg.

[gg222]

More info on it:
http://216.173.246.226/Astories/sept26/inventor.html

[JakesOnline]

It is said to get about 140 mpg.

I would expect better milage from such an extreme design.

[KarenRei]

Yeah. it's surprisingly heavy, too -- that small but still "under 1500 lbs" (as though it's close to that)? As for highway mileage, I'm guessing that it's Cd isn't as good as it should be.

Update: looking at the photos I've seen posted, I'm almost certain that its Cd is higher than Aptera's. The undersides of the pods seem truncated instead of smoothed. The falloff in the back of the vehicle is sharper than optimal; they'll be getting more flow separation than they would if they had shifted the "peak" of the roof forward. And what's the point of that "tailfin"? Trying to catch more sidewinds?

Clearly this isn't a streetlegal vehicle. Where are its headlights, taillights, brake lights, turn signals, license plate, etc?

[JakesOnline]

Also, there does not seem to be room for a 25 gallon tank, engine and drive train.

And what's that thing sitting next to it? Looks like a motorcycle with a trike cage attached where the forks would normally be. No room for 25 gallon tank on that thing either. Makeshift at best. Maybe it's unrelated.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/bellaggio1770/DSC04227.jpg?t=1218006669

[oracle]

Makeshift yes, but as they said, it is a 'test mule'. Aptera also started with something like that... Aesthetically I like it a lot, it looks like a compact street jet plane from the year 2070 (the Aptera being from 2050;-)

I wish to see the C2C produced as well, with a 4 gallong tank instead of 25, and optimized aerodynamics.

[Apt3448]

The first pix posted here were taken at Art center college of design in Pasadena. They have a department of transportation design, heavily sponsored by the automotive industry. They organize whatever various things to get the students acquainted the the various transportations ideas out there, some realistic, other obviously not.
I recognize the place because I teach there (not in transportation design). Some students are eager for me to show up there with the Aptera, and i'd be happy to memorize the wiki for the occasion :)

[KarenRei]

Hey -- they have a long way to go, but the more, the merrier :)

[randyd]

And what's the point of that "tailfin"? Trying to catch more sidewinds?

It might be to provide directional yaw stability at speed. Instability occurs when the Center of Mass (CM) is behind the Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR). With the engine behind the driver and the two forward tire "wings" providing lateral lift, that design might well need a tail fin for yaw stability.

With the batteries in the nose and the smaller forward tire fairings, the Aptera should not have lateral instability at speed.

[Rat]

PG&E to test MiEV (http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_10124664)

[Aptera3390]

Here's a cool little car, and dirt cheap too.

http://zero-gas-car.com/

[JakesOnline]

Here's a cool little car, and dirt cheap too.http://zero-gas-car.com/

If all the claims were true I would buy one today. Anyone live near Deerfield Beach?

[Aptera3390]

If all the claims were true I would buy one today. Anyone live near Deerfield Beach?


I would buy one today if it is true. I did a search on this, and so far, not alot of buzz, which seems strange for something so seemingly impressive. I sent an email to Mel, and got a quick response. Here is what he said in his email reply:

shipping is included, this is not a NEV, you can go on the freeway, car
was
previously a NEV we had it spruced up to meet the demand, any other
????
please call me on the phone, we are swamped!!

Best Regards
Mel Puleo

[garygid]

$12k order and pay by Internet only.

Lead-Acid batteries to go 100 miles?
About 65 mph max.
Only about 500 recharges, they say.

The writer of their web site does not speak fluent English.
Maybe just a scam?

[speculawyer]

http://zero-gas-car.com/ does not pass the "If it sounds too good to be true . . . " test.

I've been closely following the progress of various cars (Aptera, Volt, Th!nk, etc.) and I've never heard of this. That car sounds like the Th!nk City but available now and for 1/2 to 1/3 the price. I don't believe it.

It is really sad how many scams there seem to be in the electric car market . . . people want so much to believe.

Edit: There is just no way that car has been crash tested so it can't be sold in the USA unless it's speed is governed down to 25mph. I could be led to believe that this is a Chinese-made electric car with lead-acid batteries and a 25mph speed limit. But 110 km/hour and 160 km range? . . . don't believe it.

[Aptera3390]

According to the email I got from Mel, they modified the car to go faster, so I can believe it can go that fast. Like someone else said, it may not be safe at high speed. I will watch it for awhile and see if any stories come out about these cars before I would plop down 12K. The lead acid doesn't concern me because they could be easily replaced with lithium later.

[KarenRei]

From a basic "don't get scammed" standpoint, why would you even consider something just because the "owner" says that they have it? I hate to tell you this, but what they are describing is virtually certainly a scam. You're simply not going to get a highway speed, 100-mile EV that's streetlegal in the US for $12k at this point in time. I don't care who they say they are or whether they "spruced it up". Do not give your money to these people. Anyone can register a website, put up some photoshopped picture, and claim they're selling an EV. And there've been way, way too many scams like this already. EV buyers are easy prey because they're hungry for a product but don't have many choices right now.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[drivin98]

IMHO, definitely a scam.
If they even have an actual car like the one pictured, it would be illegal to go over 25 mph because, and I'm pretty sure of this, it hasn't been crash tested. If they're going to lie about the speed, you can bet everything else about it is one big fib.

Anyone feel like giving the local DA a call?

[RainCaster]

Here's another car coming to the states that we cannot buy.

Mitsubishi i MiEV (http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-10010783-54.html)

[aptera1213]

if, for some strange reason, the aptera either falls through or is just an awful riding car, that mitsubishi would be my second choice...

choice is good

[drivin98]

The Mitsubishi sold in America might be a little bigger than the current one. Same powertrain though.

[gistmarrs]

And that's all I have to say about that.

Forrest Gump was here!

[aptera1213]

so...lets list the true competing cars to the aptera...so an ev that will come out soon and be under 40 grand (under 30 is much better)...and not some scam car...we need either a major player or somebody with test model (s) riding around

the only ones i can think of that could be here on sale soonish:

the Mitsubishi ev--2009 maybe if they push it

the Nissan ev --02010 likely, maybe late 2009 if they push it...and will this model "feature" battery leasing?? i hope not

the Volt--2010

the think city---2010? maybe 2009....i actually like the look of the Ox, but worry about battery leasing


others that could be here by 2010, maybe even 2009 if pushed

smart electric
mini electric


seems toyota and honda are sticking with the hybrid models for now...but both could get an electric out faster if they think it is needed (the prius could go plug in very fast)



of these options...for me...aptera, mit, Ox, nissan and then volt in that order...i just don't like how the volt looks...now if GM made the other electric car they had a model for...grrr, can't remember the name...something evo...that looked nice

the mini electric would also be on my list....

what other models are coming that are real options?

ah.. found it, the volt that looks nice...the Opel Flextreme

[gistmarrs]

I guess you are only wanting to compare against the Typ 1e. There will be several others that will compete with the 1h.

[speculawyer]

I guess you are only wanting to compare against the Typ 1e. There will be several others that will compete with the 1h.
Besides the Volt . . . what others? Note, I'm not considering parallel hybrids.

[speculawyer]

what other models are coming that are real options?
Triac EV
Miles XS500
CityZenn
Loremo
Smart EV
Zap Alias (if not vaporware)

[aptera1213]

Triac EV
Miles XS500
CityZenn
Loremo
Smart EV
Zap Alias (if not vaporware)


yeah, i mentioned only major players (people with cars on the road like toyota and honda and mitsubishi and nissan and such) or people who had at least a model on the road that has been driven around (like aptera who has been partially "reviewed" in different magazines...)

if nobody has ridden a car other than the owners, then it doesn't count...

i did include the smart...the cityzenn is close to being included in my thoughts but i haven't seen any reports of it being driven by any magazines or reviewers

[KarenRei]

My apologies in advance for being critical here....

Triac EV

I have serious questions about this vehicle. The pieces of the picture just don't add up. See the thread in the off-topic section.

Miles XS500

Not likely. If they pull it off, it's almost certainly going to be more expensive than the initial $30k quoted. Their current release target for Europe is now 40k euros, which is almost $60k. At least they pulled back on their ridiculous performance claims. Even still, 120 miles range on something with a normal car shape, probably 250Wh/mi or so, means a 30kWh pack, which would cost ~$15k or more just for the pack. Building the car in China may lower its assembly cost, but it's not going to lower the price of the cells, which are available on the open market.

CityZenn

Completely depends on EEStor, just for starters.

Loremo

Size of a clown car and over $40k for the electric version.

Smart EV

No price tag has been released, but given that the gasoline Smart only gets,what, 36mpg or so, it may be borderline on price due to the cost of the battery pack. The fact that they're not shooting for a very impressive range or performance target (62 miles, 75 mph) does make it more realistic, however.

Zap Alias (if not vaporware)

Not going to happen.

On the other hand, nobody has yet mentioned the Subaru R1e. It's a Fortwo-sized vehicle and its performance specs aren't impressive (50 mile range, 62mph top speed), but because of these things, one can expect it to be affordable.

[aptera1213]

i will add the R1e to my list in the future...hopefully it is cheaper with the short driving range...but i like the mits much more than the subaru...better looking, faster, longer range...and likely a lot more money...

aptera, mits, OX, nissan, R1e then volt...if you add the smart ev and the mini ev

aptera, mini, mits, ox, nissan, R1e, smart then volt...i really dislike the volt...but really like the flex

[speculawyer]

i really dislike the volt...but really like the flex
Why do you dislike it? The design? Well that design is out the window . . . it had a terrible Cd . . . the new design will be publically shown in September.

[DonC]

smart then volt...i really dislike the volt...but really like the flex
What don't you like about the Volt? Because it addresses all the possible objections to EVs (except for price), and because GM knows how to build cars in quantity, it's the most realistic alternative for electrifying transportation. If you don't like the muscle car design of the concept car, the production car should round the angular corners off quite a bit. I think Maximum Bob said something along the lines that drag was about the same running it backwards as it was running it forward.

[speculawyer]

My apologies in advance for being critical here....
It's a discussion board . . . that is what it is for. :) You are definitely an Aptera fanboy though! ;)

(Triac) I have serious questions about this vehicle. The pieces of the picture just don't add up. See the thread in the off-topic section.
Ugly & cheesy . . . but not too bad for such a low price. A bit of a deathtrap.

(miles xs500) Not likely. If they pull it off, it's almost certainly going to be more expensive than the initial $30k quoted. Their current release target for Europe is now 40k euros, which is almost $60k. At least they pulled back on their ridiculous performance claims. Even still, 120 miles range on something with a normal car shape, probably 250Wh/mi or so, means a 30kWh pack, which would cost ~$15k or more just for the pack. Building the car in China may lower its assembly cost, but it's not going to lower the price of the cells, which are available on the open market.
Yeah, I'm sure they'll have to back down from the quoted specs. But the more competition, the better.

(Loremo)Size of a clown car and over $40k for the electric version.
Well, the Aptera is just a 2 seater. It may have an advantage over the Aptera in that such a normal car shape may be more acceptable by many. Has this thing been crash tested though? It is so low . . . I'd worry about not being seen.

(Smart EV)No price tag has been released, but given that the gasoline Smart only gets,what, 36mpg or so, it may be borderline on price due to the cost of the battery pack. The fact that they're not shooting for a very impressive range or performance target (62 miles, 75 mph) does make it more realistic, however.
For such a small car, the Smart gets disappointing mpg. I guess it is heavy & poorly shaped. I can't imagine it being better than the Th!nk as a small normal-car shaped EV since it wasn't designed to be an EV. But again, customers may accept it more than the Th!nk & Aptera.


On the other hand, nobody has yet mentioned the Subaru R1e. It's a Fortwo-sized vehicle and its performance specs aren't impressive (50 mile range, 62mph top speed), but because of these things, one can expect it to be affordable.

Thanks . . . hadn't seen this one. What is the deal with all these electric cars having grills on the front?!?! There is no gas-engine in there . . . stop it! You are just making the cars less aerodynamic. Paint one on if you really think people need to see one!

[oldpecan]

re:cityZENN:

At present it has some hoped-for performance specifications, e.g., top speed ~ 78 mph, but no physical form whatsoever...right?

[JakesOnline]

Why do you dislike it? The design? Well that design is out the window . . . it had a terrible Cd . . . the new design will be publically shown in September.

I didn't know it was being redesigned. I'll be looking forward to seeing it. Maybe they're redesigning it because their being forced to make what was originally vaporware by design.

Toyota should scrap the plug in Prius and make it a series hybrid. Might be a Volt killer.

I'd like to buy one without the ICE and add more batteries.

[speculawyer]

re:cityZENN:

At present it has some hoped-for performance specifications, e.g., top speed ~ 78 mph, but no physical form whatsoever...right?
Exactly. They've given some very impressive sounding specifications but who knows if they are real since it is completely dependent on EESTOR pulling a rabbit out of a hat with their supercapacitor, as Karen pointed out.

TORONTO, ONTARIO--(Marketwire - March 28, 2008) - ZENN Motor Company Inc. (TSX VENTURE:ZNN) (the "Company"), a leading manufacturer of electric vehicles, held its Annual and Special Meeting of Shareholders at which time management updated shareholders with Company progress in 2007 and detailed future plans for EEStor implementation including specifications around a highway capable, fully electric cityZENN!

ZENN Motor Company's business will expand to include highway capable vehicles and international markets:

Target Launch of the cityZENN, powered by EEStor: Fall 2009

The cityZENN is planned to be a fully certified, highway capable vehicle with a top speed of 125 KPH/ 80 MPH and a range or 400 kilometres/250 miles. Powered by EEStor, the cityZENN will be rechargeable in less than 5 minutes, feature operating costs 1/10th of a typical internal combustion engine vehicle and be 100% emission-free! The Zero-Emission, No-Noise cityZENN will be designed to meet the transportation requirements of a large percentage of drivers worldwide.

"EEStor's game-changing energy storage technology is in the advanced stages of commercialization", stated Ian Clifford, Chief Executive Officer. "EEStor has publicly committed to commercialization in 2008 and their first production line will be used to supply ZENN Motor Company."
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Zenn-Motor-Company-TSX-VENTURE-ZNN-837653.html

[aptera1213]

Why do you dislike it? The design? Well that design is out the window . . . it had a terrible Cd . . . the new design will be publically shown in September.


yeah, the design bugged me bigtime...long front end, too low...crazy small windows for no reason...

the flex design is much more multipurpose...more open, more useful

the volt just wants to be the EV mustang or charger...which is ok after a bit, but first we need some models that have good specs and good function before we start mimicking the us muscle cars

[speculawyer]

yeah, the design bugged me bigtime...long front end, too low...crazy small windows for no reason...
the flex design is much more multipurpose...more open, more useful
the volt just wants to be the EV mustang or charger...which is ok after a bit, but first we need some models that have good specs and good function before we start mimicking the us muscle cars
The revised version will look more like their Malibu than a Mustang. I liked the look of the original concept but it was ridiculously bad efficiency-wise. Blunt front end, those massive tires . . . very ineffecient.

If you search around, you can see camofluaged versions of the new design and artist renderings of the new design made by fans from careful analysis of the camo pictures. It looks pretty ordinary.

[aptera1213]

It looks pretty ordinary.


yeah, i just saw some "artist" rendering....

gaa, they go from too muscle to too boring...

still at the back of my list as i dislike the malibu look

still like the aptera, or, if you can go teardrop, then i like the egg look of the mits and the sqareback look of the ox

[KarenRei]

What is the deal with all these electric cars having grills on the front?!?! There is no gas-engine in there . . . stop it! You are just making the cars less aerodynamic.

Thank you! That drives me crazy too whenever I see it!

[APTERA 2356]

CNN story about air car discused earlier in this thread

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/08/08/air.car/index.html

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi y'all,

What about the Toyota 1/X ? It has a 500cc engine, so I think it is probably a serial hybrid. It only weighs 926 pounds, and is supposed to get 2X the MPG of the Prius.

[DonC]

It's a concept.

[speculawyer]

Toyota should scrap the plug in Prius and make it a series hybrid. Might be a Volt killer.

I'd like to buy one without the ICE and add more batteries.
Yeah . . . . I gotta say . . . Toyota's resistance to electric & series hybrid is gonna hurt them. Series hybrid is gonna be the major design after the ICE moves toward extinction.

Series hybrid gives people the cost of electric (for most of their driving) with the freedom/security of gas. But people will learn that they do most of their miles on electric and move to pure electric.

[garygid]

How do the air engine's moving parts and pistons get lubricated?

[KarenRei]

From oil made from all the seals and polar bears that died from the warming caused by all the GHG emissions emitted by trying to power something as inefficient as a compressor to run your car? ;)

[speculawyer]

(regarding grilles on EVs) Thank you! That drives me crazy too whenever I see it!
Ironically GM seems to have gotten the message . . . the new Volt design seems to have a faux grille:
http://www.gm-volt.com/b/volt3.jpg

I say 'ironically' because the Volt actually has a full 4 cylinder engine in there!

[drivin98]

I believe the grille has flaps that open to allow air in when the engine is running. Still, pretty damn tacky looking for a $40,000 Pribalt.

[speculawyer]

Update on the Th!nk City . . .

“The factory completed its planned build of 100 cars for the local market prior to the Norwegian summer shutdown,” says Willums, a longtime entrepreneur and sustainability expert who made his fortune as a co-founder of Norweigan solar company REC Solar. “Of course, like any new vehicle launch we are having occasional new issues arise and teething problems to overcome.”
http://greenwombat.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/08/12/ford-exec-jumps-to-think-global/

Th!nk started their production line for their latest 'City' car at the end of last November (11/28/2007) (http://www.think.no/think/Press-Pictures/Press-releases/Think-starts-production-of-its-new-electric-car-TH!NK-city-at-it-s-factory-in-Norway) . . . and they've made 100 cars since then. Jeez . . . I hope Aptera can ramp up faster than that or else it won't be until 2010 before I have a chance of seeing an Aptera. :-/

[drivin98]

They were supposed to start last November but I think they only really got started in the Spring.

[oldpecan]

sorry, there doesn't seem to be any specific info about USA sales in this brief article:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/08/mitsubishi-mo-1.html#more

make that "i-MiEV" watch your capitalization there!

[DonC]

sorry, there doesn't seem to be any specific info about USA sales in this brief article:
I saw a interview in the WSJ earlier this week and the worldwide numbers were something like 2000 in 2009, 4000 in 2010, and 10,000 in 2011. Obviously this looks like fleet/demo sales until 2012 at the earliest.

[Aptera3390]

Here's another one that could solve the footprint issues. Note that it folds up at city speeds, and flattens out at highway speeds.

http://dvice.com/archives/2008/08/peugeot_888_fut.php?p=5&cat=undefined#more

[NeilBlanchard]

Hmmm,

I'd have to be convinced that all the effort and technology of have a huge hinge bearing in the middle of the structure of the car -- would be worth it! What possible (big) advantage does it have? And it will take power to fold and unfold it...

It is not very aerodynamic, and it has got to be (much?) heavier than if it had a simple, static frame.

[Edit: I see now that there is a second major hinge in the design: the front wheels stay in the same position in both modes. The big tubular hinge is just that: BIG, and it is in a prime location -- and you can't use that space for storage, or a second pair of seats...it 'tis quite a silly design.]

[garygid]

Looks like one cannot sit in the car in the "City" mode.
Maybe this "concept" was not thought out all the way?

[oracle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by law 'cars' have to have all wheels enclosed, unlike a F1 car. The Peugeot concept thus seem like it's more made for a movie than anything else...

Maybe someone from Art Center College of Design (of Styling really) designed it?

There's a much older concept called the 'Renault Zoom' that folded the same way, but looked more realistic.

[evolutionmovement]

Plymouth Prowler and plenty of home built hot rods and Lotus 7-type cars all have exposed wheels.

[G-Jet]

How is this concept a competitor? It doesn't even use real tires/wheels. At least the aptera has that going for it. Besides, there is no way anyone would stand around waiting for it to "retract" into position. Just saying.

oracle,
Did you go to Art Center? Why do you say styling? I guess it is only your miss-informed opinion then.

G

[evolutionmovement]

Maybe he did go there. I went to CCS and I can tell you there are a lot of glorified stylists that end up in car design. They all put it in more work than almost anyone short of a surgeon to get through school (and the money), and they all have the skills, but too few of them have the creativity they should, drawing too much 'inspiration' from only within their own industry. It's not just the car companies that are at fault for putting out the same old crap all the time. Thankfully, the most creative guy I met is working at GM now. Hope they put him on an interesting project like the Volt where he could possibly do something great. And don't feel the need to defend car designers - as a lot, they have plenty ego to withstand anything. Usually it's the one's who shouldn't who have the biggest, but I guess that's not exclusive to them.

[DonC]

Thankfully, the most creative guy I met is working at GM now. Hope they put him on an interesting project like the Volt where he could possibly do something great.
What you say is interesting. FWIW GM definitely has better design these days. That's probably due to Bob Lutz, the frustrated car designer. He said when he got to GM the engineers would design the guts and then the designers had to put a wrapper around it. Now the designers get to design the car they want and the engineers have to figure out how to get the guts in.

Obviously compromises will be made either way, but the emphasis will have an impact.

[n_dawg]

Yeah, I remember seeing this concept ages ago. While reduction of parking footprint is a noble goal (look on Google Maps at all the land area devoted to parking lots), this is an impractical way to do it.

[evolutionmovement]

The guy I'm talking about, when assigned a project that allowed the class to do any car they wanted, came up with a futuristic recycling truck. Everyone else did a pointless supercar.

[n_dawg]

Ooh, sounds fun. Was it to conceptualize a car, or do a report on an existing concept? You can send me a PM if you prefer.

[evolutionmovement]

Conceptualizing. That's all we did there. And draw. And build things. Too much drawing - perhaps that's why I write now. Still build things on occasion, though. I wish some of the lessons on problem solving were taught as part of general education in public schools. Who knows what solutions we'd have for problems today? And not just cars.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Honda will be announcing their new Insight soon:

http://ecomodder.com/blog/2008/09/04/honda-insight-concept-debut-paris-int-auto-show/

[DonC]

This will introduce competition in the space for sure. I also like the CR-V sports car hybrid. Looks nice. Where I live there is resistance on the part of young female drivers to the family getting a Prius. They hate the looks. The CR-V should fix that. (I know it's not a family car but family car means one or two people being transported since young drivers can't have more than that in the car at one time). It's great to see alternatives with good mpg and battery technology.

[aptera1213]

cr-Z

cr-v is the small suv...that also should be a hybrid...

but the cr-z does look sexy

[DonC]

cr-Z

cr-v is the small suv...that also should be a hybrid...

but the cr-z does look sexy
My mistake. Yes, I meant the CR-Z. This one:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/auto_shows/2007_tokyo_auto_show_auto_shows/concept_debuts/honda_cr_z_concept_auto_shows

[oracle]

The guy I'm talking about, when assigned a project that allowed the class to do any car they wanted, came up with a futuristic recycling truck. Everyone else did a pointless supercar.

That's a perfect example of Art Center car design student. They want to make it sexy, hot, fast, so you see a lot of super sport cars in any project. I went to look at the result of a project where a new Ford Model T was to be designed, and I saw racecar after racecar. The original Model T was made for durability, function and utility, yet the concepts the class came up had nothing to do with that.

Car designers exist but are rare, most are stylists.

[aptera1213]

My mistake. Yes, I meant the CR-Z. This one:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/auto_shows/2007_tokyo_auto_show_auto_shows/concept_debuts/honda_cr_z_concept_auto_shows


yeah, i live the z a lot...and it really does look just like a two door version of the 5 door they have coming in spring 09...so i expect honda to A) actually make it and B) it to sell quite well

civic and accord sales will suffer, but i never understood that argument of, if we make this it will eat into civic sales...

sales are sales and i'm sure honda would rather sell a z than have somebody buy a toyota or ford or gm...

[oldpecan]

Malaysia's electric car company. Proton. Sounds serious. Collaborating with a Dutch co. Claims to have a VERY powerful motor for the weight.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gQSEzHZN5quqmTNo66lfqWpx13UwD92UDII80

[evolutionmovement]

Proton also owns Lotus.

[oldpecan]

hold the phone! how dumb am I? don't answer that:

They're making some claims about how LIGHT in WEIGHT their electric motor is (in comparison with the power it offers)...and I forgot to think of how that might benefit IN-WHEEL MOTORS !!!!!!!!

maybe the shape of Frits van Breemen-Schneider's strong, yet light, electric motor is not conducive to being tucked away inside a wheel... or something. [refering to the hyperlink in post #209]

I would really like to ride in an electric car designed to have reasonable 9.5 - 10 seconds 0 -60 MPH acceleration (not one of these race car prototypes) powered by 2 wheel-motors* and see exactly how bad (or not) the ride quality and handling actually is.

*or 4 smaller (smaller, as in "each of the 4 wheel + motor assemblies is even LIGHTER in weight" ) wheel-motors.

AXLES ARE OBSOLETE! YAHOO!

[Matthijs]

Malaysia's electric car company. Proton. Sounds serious. Collaborating with a Dutch co. Claims to have a VERY powerful motor for the weight.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gQSEzHZN5quqmTNo66lfqWpx13UwD92UDII80
I posted an article on this here a while ago. It seems now that they have Proton on board. I know noting about any incentive from the Dutch government on EV's what is stated in the article. It is nowhere to be found in any Dutch news report or government channels. ForumLink (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1096&highlight=cars)

Edit: I heard about this project a couple of months ago with a Dutch presentation of the company FRIEND and the motor design. They say the motor design is simple and easy to scale up production. If they are in now with ECE and the the parties in the piece posted above this company will grow big fast.

l1i31qNm2J4

There already was a driving prototype in April 2008.
Also a Google translated article on Friend B.V. Link (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=nl%7Cen&u=http://www.autozine.nl/nieuws/nieuws_archief.php?nk=7570)

http://www.friendev.com/innovation.html (http://www.friendev.com/innovation.html)(This is a nice read for you oldpecan)

Edit2: ABG has a nice article on this: Link (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/04/detroit-electric-goes-dutch-with-europe-electric-cars-and-proton/)
and a an better source article: Link (http://paultan.org/archives/2008/09/02/driven-detroit-electrics-electric-lotus-elise/)

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Here's a car that I have missed up until now -- it looks pretty impressive.

http://www.daihatsu.com/brand/motorshow/tokyo05/ufe3/img/ufe301.jpg (http://www.daihatsu.com/brand/motorshow/tokyo05/ufe3/index.html)

Overall height is lowered to 1,200mm, with sleek styling to reduce air resistance. Applying aerodynamics simulation technology, we further optimized the shape of all body parts to thoroughly minimize drag.
The result is possibly the lowest*2 aerodynamic drag coefficient in the world for this class of minivehicle: 0.168, surpassing the 0.19 Cd figure of the UFE-II. Other notable efforts which enhance fuel economy are the composite polymer body and generous use of aluminum to reduce weight to 440kg, and the new 115/65R16 tires, which reduce rolling resistance.

For its power unit, the UFE-III uses a hybrid system comprising an engine and two electric motors. The newly developed 660cc inline 3-cylinder direct injection Atkinson engine offers an outstanding balance of output power, fuel economy, and clean emissions. The electrical generator and drive motors are of the compact, lightweight, highly efficient AC synchronous motor type. Gear shifting is accomplished by a planetary gear mechanism and electrical generator, which function as an electronically controlled continuously variable transmission.


72km/l = 169mpg

[Matthijs]

Hi Neil,

There already is a thread on this car in the forum: ForumLink :) (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=371)
Some more info on the UFE-III: Link (http://www.daihatsu.com/brand/motorshow/tokyo05/ufe3/index.html)
(http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=371)

[Monev]

Looks like the Chevy Volt has lost all its appeal.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-09-09-gm-chevrolet-volt-production-photos_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

[APTERA 2356]

I have to agree with the article, even with a 40 mile electric range the styling was nice.

But now I wouldn't even consider a volt due to its new style. and at 35K or more.. no can do.

[KarenRei]

Meh, I like the new styling more. I thought the old styling was ugly. :P

[RainCaster]

Styling aside, it is way too expensive. Keep in mind that you do not own the batteries- they are leased.

[gg222]

Meh, I like the new styling more. I thought the old styling was ugly. :P
Karen, you need one of these shirts: ;)

http://www.thinkgeek.com/images/products/front/meh.jpg

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/popculture/8753/

[DonC]

Styling aside, it is way too expensive. Keep in mind that you do not own the batteries- they are leased.
Not sure where you got that idea about the batteries from. Maybe the Th!nk City? In any event it's not correct.

As for cost, if the Aptera is at $30K and the Volt at $40K that's a $10K difference for two more seats, unlimited range, an extra wheel, and a car that you can park in a small parking space. From a company that has actually built a car -- even an EV -- before. Looked at that way the Volt may be a better deal. :cool:

[KarenRei]

Styling aside, it is way too expensive. Keep in mind that you do not own the batteries- they are leased.

Since when? Th!nk has been talking about battery rental, but I've never heard GM discussing it. If you have an article on this, I'd appreciate it.

[daddio]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://66.160.188.111/.eea7b44/cmd.233/embedded..eea7b43&imgrefurl=http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/FuelsTechnologies/Plug-insandElectric/&h=240&w=430&sz=39&hl=en&start=16&um=1&usg=__MfjzDdpoWkUNEUueGsf8JfZA7k0=&tbnid=K4S9hHO982MX3M:&tbnh=70&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbuckshot%2Bev%2Bcar%26um%3D1%26hl%3De n%26rls%3DSUNA,SUNA:2006-29,SUNA:en%26sa%3DN

[KarenRei]

Ah, there we go... they're *considering* leasing the batteries, and if they do, the car will be in the sub-$30k range.

[evmavin]

Hi,

This is my first post here but I'm sure that will change soon, it's good to see the excitement here! I have reservation number for a 1e and I hope to see it soon as I recently sold my Ford Think City. I have owned three EV's starting with a Corbin Sparrow, next a 2007 Toyota Yaris I converted to a full EV and the Think which is the only Ford Think in the US to my knowledge, and an great EV with the new model to be quite a contender in the US if they can get it out there.

The Type 1e seems to be well thought although I would like to see a 220V charge option as well as a more powerful motor, it's too bad they could not have done a deal with AC Propulsion to have a custom smaller motor done in Asia for the Aptera, this would deliver higher performance, faster charging and some very cool features! The car would be snapping kevlar drive belts however:)

So many things to comment on here:)

M

[speculawyer]

Hi,

This is my first post here but I'm sure that will change soon, it's good to see the excitement here! I have reservation number 70 for a 1e and I hope to see it soon as I recently sold my Ford Think City. I have owned three EV's starting with a Corbin Sparrow, next a 2007 Toyota Yaris I converted to a full EV and the Think which is the only Ford Think in the US to my knowledge, and an great EV with the new model to be quite a contender in the US if they can get it out there.
Yeah, I was gonna ask that. I thought all the old Th!nks got sent back to Norway. How did you manage to hold onto one?

I look forward to the return of the Th!nk with the newly revised Th!nk City. The more EVs, the better!

[evmavin]

It was a pre-production model that was on display in Norway, I imported it here with a PIVCO.

[oldpecan]

Thanks, matthijs, for that link to ev-friend in your post #212 in this thread.

Go Friesland, Holland!

On this other page of the website it states that Mr. Breemen-Schneider already has companies doing manufacturing in China. Are those perhaps related to his inventions related to radio-control hobbies?

http://www.friendev.com/about.html

I don't know what to make of the claims of high power from a light motor*. I hope the claims are true and also that these lighter, stronger motors are appropriate for wheel-motors.

matthijs, do you know if the motor for the Proton is the same type of motor used in the Friend-EV wheel motors?

Mr. Breemen-Schneider's connections to Chinese manufacturing, in addition to the Malaysian connection make me wonder about the big American car makers: why don't I hear about GM, Ford, Chrysler working on wheel-motors?

* I have read that existing electric motors are already, commonly, very efficient --- therefore --- I can't personally compute the idea that great gains have been acheived in power/weight. I will keep reading here on Apteraforum.com, and everywhere, and hopefully I will continue to be fascinated and even educated!

this is just I googled breemen-schneider:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&pwst=1&q=breemen-schneider&start=40&sa=N

[bernardo7092]

Does anyone know the the MPG that GM claims the VOLT can attain?

[KarenRei]

48mpg in charge-sustaining mode.

[DonC]

Does anyone know the the MPG that GM claims the VOLT can attain?
That's a very simple question that has to have a nuanced answer. The big question is: MPG for what purpose? GM is most interested in CAFE. Consumers want to know how much gas they'll use going from point A to point B (same issue as for the Aptera hybrid).

For CAFE purposes, GM says that if you run the entire EPA set of tests starting with a full charge the Volt will get 100 mpg. The EPA counters by saying this is true, but if at the end of the test you use the engine to charge the battery pack to a full SOC -- something the Volt is not designed to do and hence would require different software than the production model -- the Volt will get 48 mpg. The EPA position seems bizarre but it's very important because all serial hybrids, including the Apterta, will have to use the same method of calculation.

For consumer purposes, the Volt should give you about a 45 EV range (40 at the end of battery pack life) and about 50 mpg after that. So if you drive less than 40 or 45 miles a day you should never use any gas. If you go 100 miles you should get slightly less than 100 mpg. If you go 200 miles before charging you should get about 65 mpg.

Of course how you drive and where you're driving makes a big difference. Opposite of what you expect with an ICE, EVs are more efficient in city driving.

[speculawyer]

I've noticed that Miles Automotive have backed off their ridiculous initial claims. The XS500 now lists a top speed of 80mph and range of 120miles. (It was formerly 125mph & 250miles.)
The new numbers are within reason, but will still require a pretty damn expensive battery to achieve.

[KarenRei]

Their price is $35k-$39k. I think that's achievable. And yeah, their old numbers were transparently ridiculous. Good to see that the ridiculous claims got dropped rather than the entire vehicle; the more EV models available, the better.

[bernardo7092]

I was just reading about the upcoming Honda Insight, available in 2009. At $19000.00 it sounds like they might have a winner. Although I still would want to have the all electric
Aptera if the test drive meets my standards.

[DonC]

I was just reading about the upcoming Honda Insight, available in 2009. At $19000.00 it sounds like they might have a winner. Although I still would want to have the all electric
Aptera if the test drive meets my standards.
Honda wants to be lower priced than the Prius. In this regard, while Toyota says the base price for a Prius is $22K, everyone I know who has gotten one has paid more like $28K. I'd expect the Insight to be a couple of thousand less than this.

[drivin98]

The Volt is officially revealed!

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/09/volt-lead.jpg

AutoblogGreen has a story. (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/16/officially-official-2011-chevrolet-volt-finally-revealed/)

[garygid]

The 2011 Volt - to be sold in late 2010?
A series hybrid with 16 kWh battery => 40-mile electric range.
So, only 2.5 miles per kWh (or 2.5 mpe :happy0025: )
I did not see a mention of the "gas" mileage - did I miss it?
Now, with only 2 years to get into production, will they make it?

Aptera gets about 12 mpe, almost 5 times the electrical "mileage".

[KarenRei]

The Volt only uses half its battery pack (since it's a PHEV with a relatively short electric range, and that puts more stress on the cells). Also, its EPA rating is 48mpg in charge-sustaining mode.

I noticed that they said that it can charge at 120V in 8 hours and 240V in under 3 hours. Sounds like they have a 30A charger with voltage autodetection in there. Hey, Aptera -- hint, hint! Although I'd much prefer 50A, 30A@240V would be better than nothing! :) EVs need faster charging a heck of a lot more than PHEVs do.

I wonder what their charge port is like? Or if there's more than one port?

[evmavin]

I am curious to what DOD that is on the batteries, at what speed and with no accessories on I'm sure. So under best conditions it will do 40 miles, go up some hills and the range goes down very fast depending on weight. It should be interesting to see the real performance. The Aptera will suffer on hills as well as it's range is a function of it's low resistance, it is lighter than most but you can be pulling 10 amp doing 25 mph on the flats and on a small hill be pulling up to 200. The amp gauge is your friend and can be very revealing to help increase efficiency and shape driving habits.

[DonC]

The DOD is 50%. The SOC goes roughly from 80% to 30%. The 30% is considered to be the "Customer State of Discharge". Once the battery pack is at the Customer Discharge, for passing and hill climbing some further part of the battery is available down to a "Depletion Point". There is regen breaking and when the gen-set is running it will slightly charge the battery, perhaps to 35%. Some reports say the gen-set may cycle off at this point but that seems up in the air.

The EV range of 40 miles is at EOL. The range when the car is new should be more around 45 miles, if that matters.

From the sketch it looks as if there is only one charge port located on the driver's side by the rear view mirror. Two would have been much better.

Karen, I don't think the 48 mpg figure is based on anything very firm. GM has said the mpg is "about 50 mpg." Presumably this is a good estimate because the ICE already exists and it's power/consumption rate is known. My understanding is that the 48 mpg figure is what EPA thinks it will come up with if the Volt goes through the standard set of tests and then the gen-set recharges the battery. This is weird since the gen-set isn't designed to do this so it's going to be very inefficient. Putting the "about 50 mpg" and the EPA "48 mpg" numbers together does give you something in the neighborhood of 48 mpg but I don't think that's an actual number. Do you have something that suggests it is?

The Volt weighs twice what the Aptera will so it will take twice the watts to climb. But unless you're going skiing it's not that big of a deal for either car.

An interesting note is that the LCD on the Volt is configurable so you can do at least some limited programming to get the information you think is most useful. The GPS system also works with the computer do decide when to turn on the ICE. For example if the car determines you are going home and are a few miles away, it will just further deplete the battery and not turn on the ICE. OTOH if it decides you are not going home and your trip will be further than the battery pack can handle, it will turn on the ICE early. No details on this yet but it's intriguing.

[evmavin]

The DOD is 50%. The SOC goes roughly from 80% to 30%. The 30% is considered to be the "Customer State of Discharge". Once the battery pack is at the Customer Discharge, for passing and hill climbing some further part of the battery is available down to a "Depletion Point". There is regen breaking and when the gen-set is running it will slightly charge the battery, perhaps to 35%. Some reports say the gen-set may cycle off at this point but that seems up in the air.

The EV range of 40 miles is at EOL. The range when the car is new should be more around 45 miles, if that matters.

From the sketch it looks as if there is only one charge port located on the driver's side by the rear view mirror. Two would have been much better.

Karen, I don't think the 48 mpg figure is based on anything very firm. GM has said the mpg is "about 50 mpg." Presumably this is a good estimate because the ICE already exists and it's power/consumption rate is known. My understanding is that the 48 mpg figure is what EPA thinks it will come up with if the Volt goes through the standard set of tests and then the gen-set recharges the battery. This is weird since the gen-set isn't designed to do this so it's going to be very inefficient. Putting the "about 50 mpg" and the EPA "48 mpg" numbers together does give you something in the neighborhood of 48 mpg but I don't think that's an actual number. Do you have something that suggests it is?

The Volt weighs twice what the Aptera will so it will take twice the watts to climb. But unless you're going skiing it's not that big of a deal for either car.

An interesting note is that the LCD on the Volt is configurable so you can do at least some limited programming to get the information you think is most useful. The GPS system also works with the computer do decide when to turn on the ICE. For example if the car determines you are going home and are a few miles away, it will just further deplete the battery and not turn on the ICE. OTOH if it decides you are not going home and your trip will be further than the battery pack can handle, it will turn on the ICE early. No details on this yet but it's intriguing.

Driving in cities with large hills, ie SF can reduce range on a 3K lb EV by more than 50%. I bet the volt weighs more than 3K. I have owned three EV's with various weight factors and even the slightest incline greatly impacts consumption, far more than is noticed on an ICE.

[DonC]

Driving in cities with large hills, ie SF can reduce range on a 3K lb EV by more than 50%. I bet the volt weighs more than 3K. I have owned three EV's with various weight factors and even the slightest incline greatly impacts consumption, far more than is noticed on an ICE.
The Volt should come in at 4000 lbs and should use 1.5 kW/foot of climb. That means you could climb over 2500 feet on half the pack, or about nine or ten hills.

Also the climb is not a complete dead weight loss because coming down the hill doesn't require the battery at all, and there is the possibility of recapturing some kinetic energy through regen. While hills will undoubtedly affect range, a very slight incline should impact consumption very slightly. Assuming a steady uphill grade of .001, over 40 miles the grade would only require the Volt use an additional 316 Wh. That's less than 4% of the pack or a mile and a half or range.

[KarenRei]

It all depends on the regen efficiency, and quite honestly, I don't think I could speculate too much about the Volt's regen efficiency without knowing more about it. I can say that a 16kWh li-ion pack should be able to safetly store current a heck of a lot faster and more efficiently than a couple kWh NiMH hybrid pack (and more, by a lesser degree, than a large NiMH or PbA EV pack). If they couple it with an supercapacitor, as Aptera does, all the better. I assume you're talking about the regen aspect. If you're talking about an overall change in elevation, for the most part that's just a balance between loaded vehicle mass and pack size. The heavier the vehicle, the more kWh you need to climb, to change your gravitational potential energy state. But, again, once you start to go downhill, you're back to regenning that gravitational potential energy, which comes back to regen efficiency.

I seem to remember running into a thread a while back from a former EV1 owner mentioning that their PbA EV1 got over 50% regen in the real world. I seem to recall that your typical modern NiMH hybrid gets only about 30% regen in the real world. I'd expect a li-ion EV or PHEV to get 70-80% regen, esp. if they used ultracapacitors in the drivetrain.

[aptera1213]

while the volt design is better, i think, than the prototype, i do think it is a bit boring and expensive...

it is kind of a hard thing for gm...they lose the original fans, but hope to get the more mainstream market...but then it is a bit too expensive for the average person buying a mid level car (accord or camry or something else in the 25 thousand range)...

as for ev's...still have the aptera one, the mits EV as two...after that, i like the ox, but have no idea when or if it will come...after that, the honda insight and volt are pretty similar, though no ev only driving for the insight (but much lower price)...between the volt and the insight i would probably go...the cr-z...sexy little hybrid...

but personally i would love to just ditch the gas altogether, so that leads back to the aptera or Mitsubishi or maybe an ox

the mitsubishi, coming from an established company and being a four seater, well that is very compelling...if it was currently in the states i just might pass up on the aptera (which could have start up problems and issues, like any small start up usually does)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4255023.html

mmmm, quick charge puts 80% in 30 minutes...that would be nice if available at "gas" stations...

[KarenRei]

Of course, if Aptera puts in a 50A charger, you could do less than one hour charges at RV parks -- no new infrastructure needed ;)

I can't wait to hear back on what they've decided about faster charging. I've twice emailed them about it (months apart), and each time they responded that no decision had been made. I'm not going to bug them about it again unless some news on the topic comes out and more information is needed. It seems almost everyone has committed to faster charging but them. Heck, even the Volt is able to take 240V at what sounds like 30A or so, and it's a PHEV -- it doesn't even really need it!

[DonC]

as for ev's...still have the aptera one, the mits EV as two...after that, i like the ox, but have no idea when or if it will come...after that, the honda insight and volt are pretty similar, though no ev only driving for the insight (but much lower price)...between the volt and the insight i would probably go...the cr-z...sexy little hybrid...

but personally i would love to just ditch the gas altogether, so that leads back to the aptera or Mitsubishi or maybe an ox
I don't think the Insight and the Volt are similar at all. One is an EV with a range extender ICE and one is an ICE with an electric transmission or battery assist, depending on how you want to look at it. Completely different technologies. I can see comparing the Insight to the Prius but not to the Volt.

Unfortunately the iMiev is not a realistic option. The worldwide production in 2011 is supposed to be 10,000 cars. More a test than anything. The Ox seems a ways away. Even the Th!nk doesn't seem like it will show up in 2009. These cars are taking a lot longer than suggested at first.

If you're willing to accept a parallel hybrid the CR-Z does look cool. I'm wondering if they're going to do something different with the drivetrain on this. The parallel hybrids are not fun to drive.

[aptera1213]

similar in size and shape...similar in that you will still visit gas stations (though much less often with the volt)...

[jstdadd]

Hello,

There is a pretty good chance that the 1/X is "real". Apparently, Toyota signed a very large deal with the world's largest carbon fiber company, the day before they showed it for the first time.

Another car that will compete with the Aptera, is the Loremo:

http://www.dorstenerzeitung.de/storage/pic/dz/dorsten/443738_3_0711DN-LOREMO.jpg (http://evolution.loremo.com/)
It is estimated to be $22,000 and be available ... wait for it ... in 2010.

I have seen pictures of the Loremo, and, frankly, it reminds me of a bigger version of the pedal-car I had as a 5-yr old.

If you can find a picture with people in it, the seating looks worse than a Cessna 150 (one shoulder pressed against the side, one shoulder pressed against the other passenger.) If you find a picture of people standing near it, I think it might be maybe 3 ft. high.

Frankly, I'll take the Aptera over the Loremo any day. It is just too much of a pedal-car.

[aptera1213]

Mitsubishi Motors Announces U.S. Electric Vehicle Fleet Test
04/01/2008

Tetsuro Aikawa, Managing Director in charge of Product Development Group Headquarters, Mitsubishi Motors Corporation, announced at the New York International Auto Show that fleet testing of the zero-emissions i MiEV electric vehicle would begin in the U.S. this fall.

The i MiEV electric prototype vehicle is powered by a durable 330-volt lithium-ion battery system located under the floor deck that is linked to a 47-kW permanent-magnet electric motor, promising up to 80 miles of driving on a single charge.

Also unveiled at the show was the i MiEV Sport concept. The i MiEV Sport concept is a coupe variation on the i MiEV with a 'fastback' roofline, maximizing the sporty possibilities of the electric vehicle package.


so fleet cars this fall...they could have some sales outside fleet sales even in 2009 if they wanted to press it...

i hadn't seen the sport before...not sure how i feel about it...probably would go 4 seater over the smaller one, but maybe not if the sport had either a much funner ride or longer between charges...

http://www.goodcleantech.com/2007/10/mitsubishis_imiev_to_feature_s.php

http://evmaine.org/assets/images/Miev.gif

http://z.about.com/d/alternativefuels/1/0/B/G/-/-/i_MiEV_SPORT_33.jpg

2009 release?? i doubt it will all the high tech stuff, but 120 mile range is nice

front grill, which is silly on ev's, actually have wind turbines on this ev...so solar on roof, wind turbines on grill...very "forward" thinking


and these will fit easily in my freakin garage...but that is an other topic for another day

[n_dawg]

1.5 kW/foot of climb.

I don't understand these units at all.

[DonC]

I don't understand these units at all.
Cause they don't make any sense. Sorry. Meant to say 1.5 watt hours/foot, or .0015 kWh/foot.