Hospitality and Electricity (H&E) Sites

[garygid]

Make an entry in this thread if you would want to be listed as
a "Hospitality and Electricity" (H&E) location for Aptera owners.
I have not yet implemented a list. But, show your interest.

You would be willing to offer an outdoor plug-in for charging
that could be used even if you are not home, and also offer some
minor (or major) hospitality if you are home and not too busy.

If you have the outdoor plugin already available, indicate that.
Otherwise, that part can come later.
Indicate something about parking: street, driveway, off-street,
number of places typically available, and the length of the
extension cord needed to go from your plugin to the Aptera.

For privacy reasons, I suggest that you not put in an address yet,
but indicate willingness and show your city, state, and zip code
so that I can begin to compile an approximate US map.

Later, if there is enough interest and we can figure out how to distribute
the information "safely" (please make suggestions in this area), you can
message more specific detail to me: email address, phone, nearby cross
streets, and possibly even your exact address and longitude and latitude.

With something like this, security and spamming is always an issue.
So, suggestions are most welcome.

At least I (or someone) could make a POI "pin" list for Google Maps that
can be seen easily by interested people. The same list can usually
be "transformed" into custom user POIs for typical portable GPS units.

Cheers, Gary

[KarenRei]

I think this should be done in a very deliberate way. There's a lot of relevant data for each location.

* Number of plugs
* For each, what type of plug (110V@15A wall plug, 110/220V@30A dryer outlet, etc)
* For each, how long of a cord you need to reach said plug
* For each, whether contact is needed in advance of showing up
* Contact info
* Hours of availability
* Fee schedule (free, suggested donation, charging fee, hourly fee, etc)
* Notes

Anything else we should list?

As for "security", and "hiding information", that's basically the opposite of what is needed. You can't hide the info and at the same time have people able to get at it when they need it. If you're making yourself into a public charging station, you're making yourself public.

[Scott]

Something like:

Who: Scott
How: Contact via forum profile options (or whatever secret info-base available)
Where: Sacramento, CA 95819, on street (driveway is full!)
What: Currently 2 110V@15A outlets available in garage, 30' needed, cords provided; will put in external outlets when I get mine; then you might need your own cord if I'm not around.
Rules:
* Advanced contact req'd for access at this point
* hours negotiable (I'll leave a cord out for ya!)
* free for travelers (but not the guy living down the street! :) )

Notes:
Courtesy services available if you like dogs and cats. Overnight stay possible, a meal or two mebbe, but I'll undoubtedly steal a picture of you and your Aptera! Anything else, just ask, but it may cost you a car wash for *my* Aptera! :rolleye0003:

Disclaimer: Conditions subject to change based on operational experiences.

[thecoook]

Same contact procedure as Scott.

Sanford, Florida, 32773, 5 Acres available for Flock parking. Multiple 110, 220 outlets with multiple 25, 50 and 100 ft. cables.

Spare Bedroom for guests(2), pit-type furniture for others, separate bath, outdoor heated pool and spa.

Extra refrigeration for soft drinks, 1st round is on me.

Mechanic shop for any minor repair, adjustment.:aptera:

[futura]

Nice idea garygid.
I think this is a great idea for EV'ers in general. Kinda like Couchsurfing (http://www.couchsurfing.com/) which I've had good experiences with; these visitors may be a tad less exotic (not that Californians aren't :cool: ).

Perhaps (when there's many more EVs) it will eventually morph into it's own website.

[KarenRei]

I seriously recommend minimizing "plaintext" as much as possible when storing the data . I think we'd want this to be "fill out the blanks in the spreadsheet". I.e., don't store all of the plugs with all of their stats in one field, or nobody will be able to query that.

Does everyone think that the list of data to be collected that I listed above is reasonable and sufficient? I guess it sounds like we also need a blank for number of cables available of each type.

I'd say that we'd definitely want this to be as automatable as possible. Does anyone have info on how to make custom google maps programattically? I'm essentially done on the Aptera customizer until someone gets me an Aptera model to hook in, so I could create a quick interface for that.

[JimmyDreams]

As the Aptera moves closer to production, I'll add my house to the charging-station list. I'm right off the 5 freeway, and would probably have a fair number of people stopping for a quick top-off before heading to Orange County/L.A.

I plan on adding a dedicated Aptera outlet to my garage (220volts if the car can accept it), and if I do, I'll add an outside outlet of the same type for the H&E spot. I recently remodeled my kitchen and there's a 220volt breaker panel in the garage. Cost to add the outlets would be minimal.

JimmyD

[KarenRei]

If you can, make them 50A outlets. More amperage capacity certainly isn't a bad thing :)

[JimmyDreams]

If you can, make them 50A outlets. More amperage capacity certainly isn't a bad thing :)

That's why I'm waiting to see what the Aptera can use/handle. I want to minimize my charging time, so whatever goes in will be specifically built for the Aptera to take maximum charge in minimum time.

JimmyD

[garygid]

Thanks for the CouchSurfing link.
I did not know about it, but I think it is a great idea.
I just signed up.
Thanks again, Gary

[BrianK]

If you can, make them 50A outlets. More amperage capacity certainly isn't a bad thing :)
50A?!?! Good lord. :) That may require a bit more than your standard NEMA-5 3-prong connector (at least to be legal).

I like the way you think, though. ;)

edit: Now that I've posted that, I realize I know absolutely nothing about the power hookup on the aptera. Maybe it can hook into RV park power? eh, regardless... this post is anecdotal at best.

[KarenRei]

Range outlets are 50A. It's not unusual. I think the only limiting factor would be that the electrician who did the job would need to make sure that the wiring leading to your house is sufficient to supply your normal house loads plus the loads of someone charging at 50A.

I realize I no absolutely nothing about the power hookup on the aptera

Right now, the prototype Mk1 only supports a standard 110V, 15A household socket. They've so far been refusing to rule out supporting higher power outlets on the production models, however, which I find quite encouraging. Also, their charger is separate from their inverter (unlike in the AC drivetrains, where it's a single common piece of hardware), so it should be much more easily upgradeable. To give an example, Manzanita Micro makes several chargers; Killacycle uses one to charge its LiP pack. All three charger models I've seen support up to 240V (voltage autodetected), and have a knob to adjust the amperage. The weakest model is 20A and weighs 16 pounds. The 30A model has the exact same form factor and only weighs one pound more (17 pounds); it should be a direct drop-in replacement. The 50A model has a slightly larger form factor and is notably heavier (42 pounds). With the Manzanita chargers, the only real disadvantage of increasing max amperage is that there's a small efficiency hit at lower currents. You wouldn't notice it in practice, but if you plan to *never* use anything more than a standard household socket, you'd want the weaker charger.

It's a shame that the Manzanita Micro chargers state that they'll support "either 50 or 60 Hz". Unless they meant to say that they'll support 50 or 60 hertz but not be limited to them, it would mean that they can't also take DC (like the AC propulsion reductive charger). Because that'd be great for connecting solar.

[daddio]

As I mentioned in the Cross Country thread.... I'd like to offer some hospitality if you hit the east coast. I'm only a residental location but can offer some GFI outlets once you know the draw/electrical needs for the x amount of Typ 1e s that may arrive (land) FEED ME!
I can see if local diners may want help too???
I personally need a few months advance notice, as I am out the county from time to time.
Re.
Number of plugs
* I should be ok for three GFI (110V@15A or 20A wall plugs )
* Since your cords would be a gauge I may not have, best to bring your own. 30' would reach my furthest outlet
* Senior coordinator: Send private message for contact info
* With advance notice hours of availability can be arranged within a given :character0027: "landing week"
* It can't cost much to charge a few:aptera: s RIGHT? I have some PV Solar on my place to assist! Green juice for your Aptera!
* I'd love to offer a free wash too, after all this will be our only chance to touch one of these:character0009:

I have off road parking/pretty private setting... so you will not a draw a crowd, unless you want that. Location is in rural NJ area. General area shown in this Google Earth link: http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=40.658911,-75.10829&spn=0.011687,0.026436&z=15

[Dolphyn]

At least I (or someone) could make a POI "pin" list for Google Maps that
can be seen easily by interested people. The same list can usually
be "transformed" into custom user POIs for typical portable GPS units.
You mean something like this? evchargermaps.com (http://www.evchargermaps.com/)
I'm not entirely clear on how that site is supposed to work, but you can right-click any of the 'pins' on that map to enter comments, and the acronyms are spelled out here (http://home.att.net/~evchargernews/)

[KarenRei]

I've seen that EV charger maps thing before. It's a pretty limited interface, though; doesn't even have an option for any sort of ordinary plug. And not much information at all :P

Also, I think that "private" list (second link) is just a dumb idea. Given that you get the whole list just by signing up... what's the point? To be a pain to people who don't want to or can't offer a charging location?

[Dolphyn]

After a little more googling, I realize that evchargermaps is under the same ownership as evchargernews.com (http://www.evchargernews.com/) and there is a (slightly obfuscated) email address at the bottom of that page. I'm guessing that the Google map is based on their list which is probably the same one that I linked before.

[iwannaptera]

There is also cleancarmaps.com the interface there is also kind of crappy, but with enough patience it could work. Problem is, most electric car charging stations (not all) are those paddle type inductive chargers for EV1's. Boy it would really be great for the aptera to be able to use those things.

[rotus8]

I will sign up for this when the car comes closer to reality. I got the space to park a whole pod, and several circuits that could be tapped into for charging. However, it is pretty unlikely that my place is between anywhere and somewhere else you might be going. But if you are out joyriding in the hills between Silicon Valley and the beach and are short of Joules, look me up. (By the way, that is where Tesla does test drives.)

[KarenRei]

Meh, those paddle chargers may be really useful in parts of CA, but they're never going to expand beyond there. I wouldn't pay extra for that capability.

[Kenny]

There is also cleancarmaps.com the interface there is also kind of crappy, but with enough patience it could work. Problem is, most electric car charging stations (not all) are those paddle type inductive chargers for EV1's. Boy it would really be great for the aptera to be able to use those things.

Couldn't an adapter be made?

Sounds like a business opportunity.

[iwannaptera]

Meh, those paddle chargers may be really useful in parts of CA, but they're never going to expand beyond there. I wouldn't pay extra for that capability.

Meh, they are ALL OVER california. I think aptera motors would be foolish to ignore the opportunity they represent. I mean, it's not as if they are even selling outside of california right now.

[garygid]

Likely easy for me to design (and make instructions for building)
an adapter for the Aptera if somebody can locate a place to buy
the socket, and find the corresponding electrical specifications.

You would buy a "paddle socket" (like on the cars that normally
use them), and ... some form of AC will come out of the socket,
inductively coupled, like a transformer. What other "hardware"
(if any) would be needed, I do not yet know.

If somebody can locate specifications, I will look them over.
I looked, but the information did not seem to be publicly available.

[KarenRei]

I think the existing chargers are a perfect situation for an adapter, but it seems a waste to build that support *into* the vehicle, since they're inefficient and going the way of the dodo. IMHO, what the vehicle needs inside is wiring to the charger that can handle different voltages and 50A or so (at a minimum, 30A, but 50 would be much better). Also, an upgradeable fast charge port would be nice. Even if they don't have a standard that they feel is developed enough to meet yet, having the vehicle designed for the installation of such a port would be a big plus in my book. I've noted before that while it's a little inconvenient due to the wheel pod, there already seems to be an excellent place for such a port: the glowy Aptera logo on the front left of the hood. It's already a hole in the composite structure and is right next to the battery pack.

[jstdadd]

Did anyone notice that Aptera has a Flickr picture site? The following picture shows a charging port on the left side, just behind the driver's door. Looks like 15 amp standard US Grounded outlet, in male, to accept an extension cord.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/aptera/2195444345/

Just remove the last set of numbers to see the whole photostream.

[KarenRei]

Yes, and there's also this unofficial photo site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25239861%40N03/

[John O]

This is very similar to what the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America have done with their "Anonymous Book". It's in book form because you can tuck it away in a ziplock under your seat, and pull it out when you are broken down in some place unfamiliar. People are not identified, just phone numbers, and the entries are classified as to how much they are willing to offer to the caller. Some have full mechanical services, some have food & a bed, some just have a flat place to camp, and others just offer a covered (dry) place to rest.

Here's what the BMWMOA site says about it:
"You receive on joining and on yearly renewal, the famous BMW MOA Anonymous book. Published annually with updated material, this book lists BMW MOA members who are willing to aid and assist (as indicated) in cases of emergency or just sociability. Listings are coded by phone numbers only and indicate degrees of services, abilities, parts, etc. available to BMW MOA riders requiring emergency help, simple directions or just a hot cup of coffee with a smiling friendly face attached. Over 12,000+ members are currently listed and as a BMW MOA member you will discover the Anonymous Book as an invaluable security blanket and an absolutely safety tool when touring anywhere, anytime." reference: http://www.bmwmoa.org/membership/membership.htm

They have had quite a few years to work out the details of what to list, and how much info to list (they started in 1972), but they didn't have the power of the Internet (and this forum) to help get them started.

--

Count me in for supplying an outlet and a relatively flat place to park. I've got 5kW of solar on my roof so the electrons will all be green. However, like rotus8 I'm a little off the beaten path, and being at the top of a 1600' hill is not necessarily the best place to get topped up... I'll gladly give more info once the framework is in place that allows us to connect easily with the folks that need help, while keeping the nasty spammers & phishers out.

[JimmyDreams]

I like the anonymous part...it would keep the spammers out. And since it the list would be sent annually (with possible 'members only update' site?) it's darn near foolproof.

We need to see what the interest is in such a list, the estimated costs of running it (printing, mailing, etc), and then find someone to actually RUN it.

It would be a heck of a learning curve, but I'd be willing to check into it by contacting the BMWMOA people and find out the in's-and-out's of the list.

JimmyD

[Apt3448]

Great idea, count me in. Any :aptera: is welcome in my street. It would improve the looks for sure! And I'm also thinking of fringe benefits such as having #1198 giving me an advanced idea of how the wide vehicle would really look on the driveway and so on. Could I test the cup holder while we are at it? And a little test ride?:jumping0007: Please??

BTW, I saw a honda fuel cell in my street, have to figure out who it belongs to and what the experiences are.

[JimmyDreams]

FWIW, I just sent an email to BMWMOA and asked them about how they run their 'Anonymous Book'.

If they can point me in the right direction, I'll look into setting something up just like it (or testing it, anyway)

JimmyD

[KarenRei]

John O: very interesting. Is the "what is offered" free-form or are there categories? And if so, what categories?

JimmyDreams: To avoid duplication of effort, I'd recommend that you either not start one up or start it up in a way that'll be readily insertable into my database. I'm already working on such a system (linked to google maps, but it could be dumped into book form if so desired). You can put as much or as little info into it as you want; if you don't want to list an email, you don't have to (you can list as little as an email address). It's designed to be workable worldwide; it accepts unicode characters and you can select different frequencies, socket types, and so on from all over the world; you can really specify any sort of outlets you want. I plan to import the much more restricted evchargernews database into it.

It lets people put a ton of info about each charging site, but as for what limitations people may want to put on who can charge and when, as well as what other facilities are there, the only currently kept are "contact first?", "contact preference", and "notes". If there are some common restrictions or facilities people might want to specify, I could add checkboxes or dropdowns for them.

[JimmyDreams]

JimmyDreams: To avoid duplication of effort, I'd recommend that you either not start one up or start it up in a way that'll be readily insertable into my database. I'm already working on such a system (linked to google maps, but it could be dumped into book form if so desired). You can put as much or as little info into it as you want; if you don't want to list an email, you don't have to (you can list as little as an email address). It's designed to be workable worldwide; it accepts unicode characters and you can select different frequencies, socket types, and so on from all over the world; you can really specify any sort of outlets you want. I plan to import the much more restricted evchargernews database into it.

It lets people put a ton of info about each charging site, but as for what limitations people may want to put on who can charge and when, as well as what other facilities are there, the only currently kept are "contact first?", "contact preference", and "notes". If there are some common restrictions or facilities people might want to specify, I could add checkboxes or dropdowns for them.

Karen...

I don't want to duplicate anything, so any info they give me (tips, traps, etc.) I'll forward to you.:)

JimmyD

[chrissz]

I have been thinking about how to set up a solar recharging station for my Aptera and I'd love to cut out the inefficient conversion from DC-to-chemical and then the Aptera converting it from DC-to-AC-chemical when I plug in. Maybe I'll send a note off to Aptera asking if someone might be able to give a hand with this.

Regardless, whether I have a solar charging station set up or not, I'd be available for someone to juice-up if on the East Coast traveling the I-95 corridor.

[garygid]

During the day, Solar Power can be stored on the "grid", if you are
grid-connected and can run the meter backwards.
If not there, then "chemical" (in batteries) is the second most popular choice.
After that, heat, potential energy, and kinetic energy come in last.

The most efficient, is "grid storage", doing DC to AC in a grid inverter,
like the SunnyBoy and running your meter backward.

The, when you want to charge an Aptera, conversion from "grid"
(AC) to charge the Aptera's batteries is also fairly efficient.
That is about as good as it gets.

Using DC to charge the batteries is (except in rare cases)
no more efficient than using AC power, since the DC is rarely at
"exactly" the voltage needed to charge the batteries (which changes
as the battery charges).

If you happen to be charging on a sunny day when the Solar System
can putting out substantial power, you could do a DC to DC to
"chemical" (in the Aptera), but the limited "sunshine" hours do
not make the most convenient system. Often, those hours are
when you want to be using the Aptera ... Unless you are a sleep-driver.

During those hours, better to use the AC output of the Solar Inverter.
If you have no "grid", there is a "Sunny Island" that will work with
the SunnyBoy Inverter to handle the battery charging and generate
AC from the batteries.

Normally, the Solar panels are arranged to produce 300 to 600 volts,
to keep down the current and associated losses. Often the batteries
are in 48 volt packs (or lower), and Sunny Island deals with that.

Does this help?

[KarenRei]

Using DC to charge the batteries is (except in rare cases)
no more efficient than using AC power, since the DC is rarely at
"exactly" the voltage needed to charge the batteries (which changes
as the battery charges).

Right; you have to use a DC-DC converter. Depending on the needs, they can get as high as 98% efficient, although 95% or so is more typical. You're not going to save a ton of energy over doing DC/AC -> AC/DC, but you will generally save some. If it's just a step-down conversion you need, a buck converter will do the trick. A lot of good vehicle chargers will already have a buck converter in them.

[Sierrasailor53]

I have been driving a Zap Xebra PK for a couple of years now and will be until my Aptera is delivered. I have found many businesses allow me to plug in my little Xebra along my usual route to work and back. I have always asked permission and offered to pay, but after learning that a 15 to 20 minute stay would be less than ten cents no one has taken me up on the offer. I stop at fast food places and grab a few amps with my meal pretty often. Grocery stores and retail businesses that have outlets on their lamp posts are ideal.120 volt outlets are pretty easy to find, but paddles etc. will limit charge points. I'm pretty sure that's the reason many are going with the 120v.

[wcabdefense]

My current NAV system will tell me where a gas station is (very handy when my GF ran us on vapors 30 miles from Vegas). What would really rock me would be similar interactive access to Charge sites in the 1e NAV system. I would probably only use it for 6-12 months, but I am sure it would save my bacon a number of times until I know 2-3 charge sites near each frequent destination.

My commute is already 80 miles if I take the HOV lanes from Laguna Niguel to Corona. That puts me within walking distance of the estimated range if I exceed 65mph without recharging.

[daddio]

Could you use your iPhone or any cell phone with internet access and look for a charging station?
E.g.:
http://www.evchargermaps.com/?Address=Anaheim&Want=SPI%20LPI%20AVC%20OC&Zoom=9
.. then, once you have the address either use your cell phone navi or your car's GPS to get you there?

[KarenRei]

EVChargerMaps only has a fair number of charging places in very limited areas and has a lot of obsolete data. It's not very well managed.

I had to put the development of my improved system on hold for a little bit because of a family vacation, but I'll be getting back to it in a couple days. I left off in the middle of working on the trust network and comments system; the addition of charging stations, addition of sockets, and queryies were already done.

Once the site is complete, I'll have to come up with an effective "get out the word" campaign to get as many people as possible around the country who like EVs to list their homes as charging points. Heck, it supports unicode, so it should be usable worldwide.

[FunkyIT]

Karen, is your Google map data compatible with Google Earth? Seem like a KML with that data would be useful. Maybe in the future even navigate and compare data in a 3d terrain.

I will have parking for 2 in a gated community. Bring your own cord and a views of Morro Rock is seconds from your parking spot. Put me on the list to be notified once you are up and running.

[KarenRei]

I suppose I could make a function to export the data in KML. It currently works with the Google Maps API, but the info's stored in a Postgres database. Of course, you wouldn't be able to do anything in Google Earth like adding sites, querying sites, commenting on sites, etc. I suppose I could have custom kml files generated for each query, though.

Right now, I'm still working on the reliability and user comments features. Last night, I finished the code to make the color of the info in the markers reflect the calculated reliability of that data (it still needs to be debugged). Reliability is based on a number of factors. Each user's addition of data is weighed based on that particular user's reliability rating. The more frequently a user contributes new data to a particular site, the less that data is weighed, so someone can't rig it by posting a bunch of identical, wrong updates. If data is way out of whack from what was there before (for example, if a site was in New York, updating its position to somewhere in Wyoming), its reliability is penalized. The longer it's been since there was an update, the less reliable the old data is considered.

I haven't implemented the code to calculate the user ratings yet, but it'll be based on how often they're in conflict with what everyone else is saying and how long they've been around. I also still need to implement one html page and its corresponding CGI, update one html page and its corresponding CGI, write code to import the EVChargerMaps data, and of course, tons of testing.

One of the main things I want to avoid is what happens with EVChargerMaps, where dozens of sites show up as working in a given area, and you look at the comments section, and everyone is saying that most of them are not working, while many of the ones that are listed as working, nobody has been to them in ages. At the same time, I don't want some bad apple to be able to go in and mess up the data for all these different sites by randomly changing it. In the design I've been going for, such a vandal would have their user reliability plummet, and their contribution to the data of a given charging site would be minimal. And lastly, I want it to be as automated as possible (the opposite of EVChargerMaps, which requires having to contact them and hope that they respond to get things up there) and to store as much (optional) info as possible about each site and charging source in a format that users can query.

Any thoughts on ways to improve this? Also, one issue that comes to mind is how to encourage people to leave feedback on sites that they've charged at. The more people that leave feedback, the better the system will work. Any ideas? Right now, all I can think of is a friendly reminder on the page that returns your query results.

[jstdadd]

Karenrei:

First, let me applaud your efforts for taking on this project as well. ApteraWiki is incredibly useful to many of us, I am sure you will do a bang-up job on this project too.

You might look into the methods used by the various GeoCaching sites to list points of interest. The nice thing about GeoCaching.com, for instance, is the ability to download individual sites to your GPS, so building a special interest, like exists for 'Virtual Caches', making a site type for 'Conductive electric charger' or 'Inductive electric charger' would not be difficult.

The Geocaching sites then allow members to post visit notes, that appear in the log with most recent entries first. The operational status would be a valuable data item to collect, and the GeoCaching site allows a site to be temporarily flagged as 'non-available' when it has been stolen, removed or otherwise made unavailable.

The person who puts up the site online is considered an 'owner', but for charging sites, a local 'adopter' may be more valuable. Someone who lives nearby or frequently visits the site is able to change the operational status to 'available/non-available'. GeoCaching.com allows registered members to add sites unattended, which are then reviewed and made 'active' within a few days by an admin. The 'owner' gets notification when a new visit log is entered on his/her sites, so any indication of site damage or other problems can get looked into in reasonable time. Only admins or site 'owners' can change the location of a site, for instance.

There are various special-interest sites, including one that just lists red-light cameras, and for a small fee (maybe $5.00) a visitor can download the cameras location list for inclusion in their GPS. I put this list in my Garmin GPS and now every time I am within 1000 ft of a red-light camera I get a popup message and bell indicator in the GPS in the car. A similar system for listing conductive/nonconductive/fast-chargers within 2 miles, maybe, would be very useful to an electric car driver. If you could get involved with the manufacturer (Garmin, for example) you could update their databases directly. The GPS already lists gas stations, with phone numbers and street addresses.

Additional 'Aptera-Friendly' sites could be encoded as well (repair stations, hospitality sites, club members...and on and on.)

[garygid]

One of the main features of the GeoCaching database, is that the critical data is only changed by the owner, and the new comments do not overlay older data or comments, but just add to it.

Thus, one can more easily see if the newer info is in conflict with older data, and make better "reliability" judgments about all the data.

A "blind" data-reliability system is a fine idea, but it is rather difficult to do enough "automation" to make up for the fact that it is essentially still "blind".

[FunkyIT]

Not an expert here but I know you can update kml.. or have them link to a file that updates data.

Will you incorporate a review process, say like amazon or buy.com that rates the charging site and give real world feed back that is also stored as metrics (3 stars out of 5 etc..) That would enhance the reality factor of the charging sites. oh but I see your problem with data being out dated or locations in obscure area's have a low rating even if they are reliable.

Are you in Beta yet?

[KarenRei]

One of the main features of the GeoCaching database, is that the critical data is only changed by the owner, and the new comments do not overlay older data or comments, but just add to it.

But that seems to be a fundamental problem with EVChargerMaps -- see all of the places that are really dead, and people posting comments pointing out that they're dead, but with the sites still showing up as alive when you query it. The charger died and the owner never noticed or cared to post an update. That sort of thing might be acceptable with geocaching, but when it comes to planning trips, it really isn't.

For example, look at this gem from EVChargerMaps -- there are tons like it:

"Santa Monica Airport
3223 Donald Douglas Loop
1 SPI: Not working
1 Avcon: Working

Comments: 06/20/08 01:10 EDT bhopkins reports: Brief 5-min charge with SPI, worked fine. Avcon "protection" light illuminated, and non-responsive to button pushing (no vehicle to test with)."

The official data is backwards from what the person who went to charge found. Here we have a comment from just a month ago; by all means, what this person found should be what you see when you query results unless they have a habit of posting bogus results. But with a rigid, owner-control system, you get it backwards.

Will you incorporate a review process, say like amazon or buy.com that rates the charging site and give real world feed back that is also stored as metrics (3 stars out of 5 etc..) That would enhance the reality factor of the charging sites. oh but I see your problem with data being out dated or locations in obscure area's have a low rating even if they are reliable.

Really, though, that is the general idea. And almost everything except for some very basic information (such as the name of a site or its contact info) can be modified by users, not just whether it's working or not.

Are you in Beta yet?

Well, with the recent changes I've made to how the database is accessed (to account for the new trust system), the old code probably won't work until it's been freshly debugged. But I did have site adding, socket adding, and site querying working until then. Really, though, at this point, I prefer the flexibility of being able to wipe the database at will and install a fresh schema without having to figure out how to migrate things users have added. It'll probably be several weeks before I open for Beta.

At least this project isn't bottlenecked like my last one. I made a vehicle "customizer" to let people create custom paint jobs for their Aptera in 3d. I made this really elaborate customizer:

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/customizer/

Just one wee little problem: the person who was working on a 3d Aptera Typ-1 model disappeared from this forum and I never got the model out of him :( So, instead, it's a "sphere customizer". Gee, how great is that? :P

[FunkyIT]

What format file do you need the model... for the customizer?

[n_dawg]

In other news, the DoE Alternative Fuel Finder (http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/stations/find_station.php) lists electric vehicle charging stations.

It seems like people should be able to leave comments (newest appear first), and vote on the functionality of the charging station. Eventually, if enough people "flag" it as non-operational, it gets marked as inactive.

PS: I've done projects in the past with KML. Google's documentation is great, and it's really a blast to work with. You can of course dynamically update the map, and even pass custom parameters into the retrieval URL. We had a system that grabbed a KML file that was dynamically generated from a SQL db with PHP, so we just passed parameters to PHP. evmap.kml?ports=110V,avcon,220V&loc=92008&rad=100 You know, that sort of thing.

[KarenRei]

What format file do you need the model... for the customizer?

Povray, with UV texture coordinates, both in hires and lowres model versions. Actually, since I'll have to mess around, I'd probably want several resolutions to pick from.


In other news, the DoE Alternative Fuel Finder lists electric vehicle charging stations.

I tried the DoE site, and it seemed to be junk. Even harder to get added onto, unreliable with query results, and it seems to just be the data from EVChargerMaps.

PS: I've done projects in the past with KML. Google's documentation is great, and it's really a blast to work with

I'm having a great time with the Google Maps API. It's pretty powerful, what you can pull off by setting callbacks for all sorts of map actions. I had a little fun with picking the default location where you start out: right over the crushed EV1s in the GM Mesa Desert Proving Grounds. ;)

[n_dawg]

I tried the DoE site, and it seemed to be junk. Even harder to get added onto, unreliable with query results, and it seems to just be the data from EVChargerMaps.

I know for a fact there are sites that are on the DoE site that aren't on EVChargerMaps. There are places *outside California*, even.


I'm having a great time with the Google Maps API. It's pretty powerful, what you can pull off by setting callbacks for all sorts of map actions. I had a little fun with picking the default location where you start out: right over the crushed EV1s in the GM Mesa Desert Proving Grounds. ;)
Hehe. Cute, but might I suggest not terribly useful? You should make it Steve Fambro's house.

Steven P Fambro
CENSORED
Carlsbad, CA 92009 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=CENSORED%2092009)

(Of course, it's already public. Anyone can type whois myaptera.com (http://www.whois.net/whois_new.cgi?d=myaptera&tld=com).)

I imagine that's where the first Aptera will be, at least. ;)

[KarenRei]

I know for a fact there are sites that are on the DoE site that aren't on EVChargerMaps. There are places *outside California*, even.

There are on EVChargerMaps, too (or at least on their source list). What sites are you thinking of that are on one and not the other? On a cursory search, everything I saw seemed to be sourced to EVChargerMaps.

If there really are charging sites there that aren't on EVChargerMaps, I'll need to leach their data, too.

Update: Looks like you're right; they have a couple other data sources, like APS charging sites. Neat :)

[n_dawg]

I show a bunch of places in new england that don't appear on EVCM. Search within 500 miles of Albany, NY and you'll find a bunch on the DoE site, none on EVCM

[KarenRei]

Hmm. You know, if I can actually find a way to submit data there, I might be tempted to just become a wrapper around their data to bypass their atrocious query interface. I like the fact that they automatically call sites up to verify that they're still operating. Still, they don't store much information. They don't even store what types of sockets or chargers are available. :P Seems like a pretty glaring oversight.

I think it'd probably still be better just to leech their data.

Hmm, here's an idea! I currently, it is set up so that charger site operations can (optionally) provide an email address. I could send out biannual verification emails with a link that they can click on to re-confirm that they're still operating properly.

Now, I think that'd still have to be "in addition to" letting users adjust fields -- for a couple of reasons -- the owner misenters data about their location or their available chargers/sockets, the owner is wrong about whether their stuff is working, the owner just punches in their address to be geocoded and the geocoding gets a location that's wrong, or whatnot. But I think an email validation system could give a good boost to reliability. What do you think?

[n_dawg]

There are a couple problems that need to be avoided. Making sure people don't put down that everyone in CA has a $125,000 Aero fast charge station. Making sure places don't get abandoned. Making sure if someone goes on vacation the system deals with that gracefully.

If they misenter their location or charging sockets, can't you, ya know, tell them when you stop by? Or leave a couple comments and flag it for admin attention? (the Admin could then easily send out a confirmation e-mail) It seems like letting humans work out any problems is much easier than trying to come up with every possible circumstance. Just have a "flag problem site" and let people comment to further elaborate. Remind them when they flag to leave a description of the problem – maybe even have it as a required textfield.

[Dolphyn]

Hmm. You know, if I can actually find a way to submit data there, ...
This looks horribly inefficient, but it just might work: http://www.evchargernews.com/chargerform.txt

[iwannaptera]

This looks horribly inefficient, but it just might work: http://www.evchargernews.com/chargerform.txt


I like how they call having a charging station blocked by a non electric car ICEing.:happy0025:

[KarenRei]

This looks horribly inefficient, but it just might work: http://www.evchargernews.com/chargerform.txt

Getting onto the EVChargerNews/EVChargerMaps list, and using that as a roundabout way to get on the DOE list, would probably work. Of course, I've emailed the EVChargerNews people before and gotten no response :P I'm not sure how active they are these days.

Which brings me back to why I don't want all updates to have to pass through an admin. And besides, what could I, as an admin, do apart from judge whether to trust a given user based on their past actions, or whether to flag a site or not based on what users have been saying and how trustworthy I feel they are? What I don't get is what's wrong with automating this process. If someone could explain that to me, I'd appreciate it. :)

[n_dawg]

Apply judgement.

[garygid]

Karen,
I think nothing is wrong with automating, but it takes some substantial work
to make it work well. But, I think that you are a very clever person.

Having a viewable history of changes and comments is probably good,
otherwise it is more difficult to undo (or even detect) some bad
or malicious data.

[Rat]

This reminds me of the geocaching experience, which might serve as a useful model. See www.geocaching.com. Just look for caches in your area and go to the cache page of a few of those to see how it works. Those who place a cache put out information about the cache, such as difficulty, location, etc. Others who find the cache, or try to find it, log their find (or bad experience, suggestions, etc.) Allowing the users to post logs is probably the best feedback mechanism there is. If the owner's info isn't good they post better coordinates, describe problems not indicated on the cache page (such as poison oak), etc. Obviously the features and problems with these charging sites will be different, but the important aspect is that by allowing user logs, it soon becomes apparent when there are significant problems, or if a site is particularly user-friendly. Both site owners and commenters gain a reputation after a while as being accurate, or complainers, etc. The users can't change the owner's original information, so it's not like a wiki in that sense, but their comments serve to warn others of particular issues, assist with finding, etc.

[dragonfly]

Funny, my husband and I were just discussing how we could do a road trip in our e. Be interesting to see how State and National Campgrounds could become a part of the system...

Count in a station in San Clemente!

[MartyG]

I live in Camarillo. I have two 110 volt outlets on my front porch. A person would need about a 30 extension cord to reach the curb - I would be able to supply a cable if needed.

[rsbell]

My place is open for charging should the need arise.

I'm in Bakersfield, CA, so it's a good place to stop when heading north from L.A. (about 100 miles). I'm just a few miles off I-5.

Usual residential outdoor plug. Bring an extension chord, or I can supply one with a little warning. I can do something a little more elaborate should there be a need.

Scott
Bakersfield, CA
93311

[scottsim]

Welcome Aptera owners to recharge and visit....power also available at gate....

Scott
Kelseyville, CA 95451

[KarenRei]

My place is open for charging should the need arise.

I'm in Bakersfield, CA, so it's a good place to stop when heading north from L.A. (about 100 miles). I'm just a few miles off I-5.

I'll be passing through there next summer (hopefully!) -- I might just take you up on that offer :)

120 or 240?

[scottsim]

Have both 120/240....gate area has a 120 box on the controller (access thru mangate), otherwise buzz to get gate open...220 in garages...

About 1.5mi off of Hwy29....

Scott

[KarenRei]

Hwy 29? I know where 99 is, but not 29. Is there another name? Also, I5 is like 20 miles from Bakersfield (at least from downtown). Not like I wouldn't go that far out of my way, of course. :)

I'll be coming up from Grapevine and leaving to the north on CA 95, past the oilfields on the east and the farms on the west, up to Porterville.

Thanks for the offer, by the way :)

[scottsim]

Karen,

Got to go WAY North....I am in Lake Co. close to Clearlake....North of Napa/Sonoma...You will have to plug in multiple times...

Scott

[KarenRei]

Whoops, mixed up posters -- I was responding to Rsbell from Bakersfield. :) I'm not going that far north.

[Mother]

Karen, GAry,

Contact the staff at the BMWMOA and get the format for their membership booklet. The BMW Motorcycle Owners Anonymous "Club" has been around since 1972. They publish an "opt-in" booklet of Owners willing to share facilities with other traveling members. You could pick up some ideas from their booklet format and password protect the data.

editor@bmwmoa.org

Mother

[IamIan]

another charge location map / data base for those interested.

http://www.altfuelprices.com/

Here is another local one in the New England area.

http://neeaa.org/charging.htm

[hill]

Off the infamous "El Toro 'Y' interchange" I-5 & I-405 in south county:

Gary Hill
on Tahoe Lane (only 20 homes long ~ look for the Solar Panels :thumbsup: ) Just off Lake Forrest Drive.

[Rosso]

Sounds like the charge-point locator is now built-in to the guidance/computer system...via Google.
Constant awareness of points near you!
Most excellent; though you still might want some hospitality ;)
See the thread from TED by Josh for the video of the system.

[notooilateride]

Count me in. Close to the 22 Fwy and Beach Blvd, Orange county, Ca.
110 outlet, 25 ft. cord, parking gets crowded, money always helps pay the bills.

To everyone out there. What about investing in rest and recharging stations with amenities like healthy foods, hiking trails and coffee of course. Make them state of the art with photovotaic system and/or wind power supply. I would be interested in investing in such an enterprize

[evchargernews]

Just joined. I'm the owner/webmaster for www dot evchargernews dot com, and have been for something like eight years now. Family owns/drives two RAV4 EVs; formerly had two EV1s, S10E, Ranger EV. EVCN has a confidential "emergency charging list," similar to what you are discussing. You're welcome to join. You can get to the signup from www dot evchargernews dot com. Yes, it's a little clunk, and it's old. And getting listed takes a while, because it's a manual process. But we have well over 100 sites. And we have well over 600 public sites. Always interested in suggestions and improvements, and willing to work with and share information with all EV drivers.
Tom Dowling

[Apt3448]

Welcome and thanks in advance. I'm sure some people have questions for you about the RAV EV performance, hope you're willing to share your experiences.

[KarenRei]

Just joined. I'm the owner/webmaster for www dot evchargernews dot com, and have been for something like eight years now. Family owns/drives two RAV4 EVs; formerly had two EV1s, S10E, Ranger EV. EVCN has a confidential "emergency charging list," similar to what you are discussing. You're welcome to join. You can get to the signup from www dot evchargernews dot com. Yes, it's a little clunk, and it's old. And getting listed takes a while, because it's a manual process. But we have well over 100 sites. And we have well over 600 public sites. Always interested in suggestions and improvements, and willing to work with and share information with all EV drivers.
Tom Dowling

I was actually working on a replacement site for it, as evchargermaps.com had seemed to stagnate, before I got sidetracked by my current project (an EV range simulator). The data on EVchargermaps, from what I've seen, is outdated; whenever someone visits a charger, half the time it's dead. And often when there are comments on the map, stating that it's dead, the site sill shows up as alive.

If you were looking to restart work on it, I'd definitely support you. I'd say it needs to support much more diverse sockets, instant crowd sourcing, including status updates, email and/or phone verification, and so forth, with more fields designed to be queryable. And I really don't get the concept of an "emergency list". How is that supposed to prevent people from harvesting the data? It just makes it seem like it'd be more difficult for people who need a charge without really preventing abuse, since anyone can join. But since you maintain it, I'd love to hear your insights into the topic.

One thing I was working on with mine, in addition to verified charging sites, was to also have options to query "potential" charging sites that are unknown whether they'll let you charge or not, and which come up with a symbol indicating that you need to call first. Just to pick a random example: the nation's many thousands of RV parks. There are RV park databases, I already have scripts to query them, and you can automatically pull up the phone number, email, website, park ratings, socket types, etc. So if there's a hole in your route between known chargers, you can call ahead to various potential charging sites and see if they'd be willing to let you charge. And if the answer is yes, you can then mark them as verified. There are tons of things that could meet this potential charging site criteria -- judging from places that were very supportive of Kris during Charge Across America: fire stations, utilities, welding shops and garages, rest areas, and many more.

But either way, thanks for what you've done so far. :)

[edarchitect]

Lane Community College, here in Eugene is proposing to build an electric vehicle charging station for students, faculty and the community to use. The project includes a roof over a covered parking area that will contain 75-80 kW of grid inter-tied solar electric panels and 36 electric vehicle charging stations on the main campus.

The project will also serve as a teaching opportunity for students to learn how to install, repair and service solar electric vehicle infrastructure.

Funding comes from a bond issue and assistance from the local electric utility. Now we just need some Apteras.

[kerbe]

You know, I was just thinking about this -- and wondering if any motel or restaurant chains were planning to offer recharge stations. I think it could be a wonderful marketing tool.

[javan]

I agree with you kerbe. It would make a difference to me. Jim

[ohm]

Don't know whether this is an active thread, but I would most enthusiastically like to make my address in Ocean Beach 92107 available as a respite for depleted Apterae and their occupants.

[bykerr]

There has been very little discussion of the gauge required for the extension cord. Is there specific info available?

[Ardie3301]

I believe that the extension cord is not a good place to start being overly thrifty.

Do not even >think< about one of those $1.99 christmas tree extension cords. Cheapie extension cords -barely- satisfy the electrical requirements, and -never- actually deliver on their promise of "up to <insert claim here>"

As a basic rule,
16 gauge is good for 120 volts / 10 amps.
14 gauge is good for 120 volts / 13 amps.
12 gauge is good for 120 volts / 15 amps @ 50 ft.
10 gauge is good for 120 volts / 15 amps @ 100 ft.

For 50 ft., a 12 gauge cord will be fine. (about $50.00) Most circuit breakers in your home are 15A anyway. I am under the impression that Aptera understands this, and wants us to be able to use an ordinary 3-prong electrical outlet found in garages across the country to recharge the 2e.
-HOWEVER-
If you are actually going to need the full 100 ft., remember that there are voltage losses involved in that length, and you should step up to a 10 gauge cord. A good one will be about $150.00-ish. Ouch.

The green extension cord I've seen in Aptera photos is probably a 50-ft. 12 gauge extension cord available in most any hardware store above the caliber of The Home Depot.

-- Ardie

[rayfellow]

Hwy 29? I know where 99 is, but not 29. Is there another name? Also, I5 is like 20 miles from Bakersfield (at least from downtown). Not like I wouldn't go that far out of my way, of course. :)

I'll be coming up from Grapevine and leaving to the north on CA 95, past the oilfields on the east and the farms on the west, up to Porterville.

Thanks for the offer, by the way :)
If you're coming over the grapevine... you're on I5/99... going North. After it hits the valley floor, Hwy 99 proceeds on the East side, I-5 on the West side... Porterville is on the East side of the Valley or hwy 99. It would be easier to find charging infrastructure on the East side too, since all the cities/towns are on the East side. (including Bakersfield).

[oldmotorhead]

Nissans Leaf is listing charge station on its dashboard computer. I'm guessing Aptera could do the same. You could probably get them on your phone if you can connect to the internet.