In escrow, really?

[Vaaaase]

I first saw something about the Aptera concept around the same time my friend noticed the VentureOne Carver project. At the time the Aptera was just a CG model and the Carver was that goofy couple's heads photoshopped onto a Carver. So both seemed like the kind of "gee whiz" stuff you see in PM that never actually materializes, and I never really expected that it would be anything but vaporware (around the same time I stumbled across the Zap-X and how it would _totally_ be on the streets in late '07, plus didn't some guy actually pull off this scam in the 70s? ...so I think my suspicion is warranted).

So, I wanted to wait to reserve one until I had a sign of some kind, and even then, I almost thought about reserving one, canceling the reservation, and then re-reserving after I confirmed that my deposit actually was refundable.

Point is, even now with the company clearly in operation, I still wonder whether my money really is "in escrow" or what. It still even crosses my mind (albeit more and more in passing) that they're only going to continue to build confidence until they have so many reservations, and then X times $500 plus whatever they have that's liquid from the (actual) investors goes poof! to some Cayman account and they're never heard from again.

Anyone have any scuttlebutt on the bank end of things? Just for peace of mind?

If this was addressed already I missed it.

[KarenRei]

That would be a crazy way to run a scam. Build a series of working prototypes to con a couple thousand (let's say 4,000) people out of a mere 200,000 dollars? And limit the people who can reserve to in-staters? And limit yourself to a tiny pool of private investors? And have a factory and staff, including some having some big names in the industry on your payroll, realistic enough to convince said investors?

That'd be the most poorly run scam I've ever seen.

[Vaaaase]

That would be a crazy way to run a scam. Build a series of working prototypes to con a couple thousand (let's say 4,000) people out of a mere 200,000 dollars? And limit the people who can reserve to in-staters? And limit yourself to a tiny pool of private investors? And have a factory and staff, including some having some big names in the industry on your payroll, realistic enough to convince said investors?

That'd be the most poorly run scam I've ever seen.

I know, I know. Like I said, at this point, my curiosity is largely just that-- curiosity. Maybe it's just that I'm hungry for other Aptera knowledge and am impatient for some more official releases? Dunno. I just figured that you and the other tech-sleuths might have turned up some details in other arenas than just tech. To be clear, I definitely agree that having it be a scam from the get-go at this point does fly in the face of common sense...

I guess I just see stuff like all the Zap! baloney, and am annoyed that I can get all pumped up about such blatant vapor. Plus, stuff like the "Triac," which was allegedly built in secret(??) and now out of NOwhere they're taking reservations for 10% of the purchase price ( http://www.greenvehicles.com ) which sets off my BS alarm big time. Or stuff like this guy http://www.kpic.com/news/local/13287747.html who got almost half a mil I think. I agree that this amount of effort wouldn't be worth $200k, but by garygid's graph, maybe we'll hit 10k reservations? 20k? Would a big effort be worth $5M? $10M? Plus, like you said, it's realistic enough to suck in some private investors' money too on top... wire it all out before the OFAC or whoever notices and you're livin' surfside for the rest of your days.

This is the one I was thinking of earlier: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_%28automobile%29 Even had a working prototype and a bunch of job postings too... I think s/he was even on a talk show so the media bought it then as well.

In short, I believe in it (they do have my $500 after all), so don't get me wrong... I just thought it would be interesting if people were scouring for details other than just which parts and stuff they might be using, and since this is clearly a great forum with dedicated folks, I figured this would be the way to check.

[GunnyD]

Karen,

Count your Zeros again......


4000 * $500 = 2 million dollars

That means 10 thousand dollars a month interest (on 2 million at 6%)

Could be where your 200 thousand came from... 20 months.

[KarenRei]

Left out a zero. Of course, still, compare that to the salaries of ~15 people (I'm sure Neil's salary isn't small in it's own right), plus the payments to all of the companies Aptera has worked with, rent on the building half their videos are from, etc. It'd be one of the most ineptly run scams in history ;) I can just imagine the conversation.

"Let's rip off people who want to buy cars."
"Great idea! I bet they'd put down a couple thousand dollars to reserve a slot."
"No, let's make it just five hundred."
"Oh, okay. Well, we obviously want as many people to give us money as possible..."
"No, I only want to rip off Californians."
"Okay.... well, we'll need some props..."
"Yes, I want to show up at auto shows and give newspapers, magazines, and TV shows test drives. I want everyone from Popular Mechanics to CNN to be convinced that we're legit."
"A working model? But that will cost millions..."
"Right. And we'll need a factory. With nothing out of the ordinary, so investors will trust us."
"Ah, so that's where the money is to come from -- we're really scamming investors! Great, so we'll want to have as wide of an investment pitch as possible..."
"No, we're going to stay closed to a small group of investors."
"But... people across the US would throw money at a company like this!"
"No way -- I'm running this scam, remember? Oh, and let's hire some big names in the industry, too, bring them onboard with the scam..."

Is this what we're picturing? :)

[fritzponds]

nicely put, I think.

[JoeReal]

IdeaLab is a great reputable company that partnered with Aptera. They would have known and sued Aptera by now if this was a scam.

[Vaaaase]

[...]
Is this what we're picturing? :)

OK, well, now I just feel silly! Between this and forgetting the zero... sheesh. :$

I guess I'll settle for common sense.

(Only, that basically IS what happened with the Dale, right?)

[GunnyD]

Hindsight is alway 20/20.

Idealab I am sure has put gobs of money into this and despite what anyone thinks of Californians, they still break arms and legs:sick0010: so I won't worry about my $500.

Since Steve went to Idealab and not to the corner drug dealer for capital like John Delorean, we might have a chance. Since Aptera is not in the same sentence. As Zap. we won't have the problems with stock fraud.

I just hope that Steve stays the course and brings the future to market without getting greedy or scared of the big boys.:fighting0003:

[daddio]

I suppose everyone did thier "due diligence" before investing, as best they could....http://www.ftc.gov/ro/western.shtm
Let some professionals help you..... I suppose CA has local news TV consumer Experts you can consult too???
I helped put a different industry's top exectutives behind bars for fraud.. they operated for years, had some TV spots... But could not have been done without someone like the FTC and other "involved folks...
From here.... Aptera look to be on the up and up, but I am not close to this venture... the difficult part is this company will be evolving quickly... to meet "the dream".
I wish this guy luck in meeting your expectations and America's!

Once in production...I'm not sure when consumer reports can get to this vehicle too, for you/the general public in the coming years

Good Luck to us all

[APTERA 2356]

Don't feel silly, we are all into somthing new here which requires a little faith.

Most of us have never bought a vehicle where we were not able to test drive it or at least go to the "dealer" and see the product and that is a bit un-settling.

We are going to be the vanguard of this new technology.

(plus if the charge is on a major credit card there should be some protection built in)

[JimmyDreams]

OK, well, now I just feel silly! Between this and forgetting the zero... sheesh. :$



You SHOULD feel silly! now, it's GO TO THE END OF THE LINE for you!!! (whoopee! we all move up a notch!!)

:jumping0007:

(the preceeding was complete sarcasm, people. Laugh once in a while...it makes people wonder what you're thinking!!!)

JimmyD

[impi]

I'm still hoping for a more detailed reply to the original post. Absolutely, I agree that the way everything is treated, the escrow is no scam and the $500 is refundable. But being a recent graduate, I need an escape clause if things start going badly on my end. How is the escrow done or through what companies etc? I'm a bit clueless in these regards and really want something detailed and concrete that I can present to the advisory voices outside my head that confirm I'm not insane or doing anything foolish. Thanks for the help. New on forums and figuring this out, I tried the search option first for info.

[speednut]

(Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me...) :)

After watching closely the rise and fall of Corbin Motors, I was extra cautious about the $500 deposit. The relatively small amount made me feel a bit more comfortable as I normally would have expected >$1000 deposit (like what was required for my Mini Cooper order).

Nonetheless, I did some due diligence because I could put $500 to better use if I was going to get scammed. First thing I did was contact Aptera and expressed my concerns.

Emily Mizutani in Aptera's Customer Relations was very helpful and forwarded to me this PDF file (http://www.davejenson.com/temp/WellsLetter.pdf) which describes the escrow account. I then looked up the phone number for the Pasadena Wells Fargo and asked for Ted Wu. He was not available, but a customer service rep was able to verify this letter's authenticity and confirm that Aptera does indeed have a proper escrow account as they have described. I made my reservation after the phone call. (April 24th)

So in a nutshell, if this is a scam, Wells Fargo Bank is in on it too. :p
Hope this helps!

Mods: if the referenced PDF file is useful, could you copy it to somewhere on this site in case it disappears from the linked location.

Edit: Uploaded the PDF to the ApteraForum

[Vaaaase]

Cool, thanks... This is the sort of answer I was hoping for when I asked originally.

[Apt3448]

He, thanks Speednut. I wasn't worried, but it is nice to have some extra reassurance. Or are you in on it, too? :scared0008: How much did they offer you??

[speednut]

... Or are you in on it, too? :scared0008: How much did they offer you??
You'll see when they release the updated reservations numbers, I should be in the top 10 now. :tongue0006: (a big j/k!!! I could only wish!)

[Matthijs]

I found some old info in this thread: Forumlink (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=264)

Pre-orders: The best way for us to gage interest in the Aptera, and the ratio of all electric vs a range-extended electric was to allow customers to reserve their production slot and choose the configuration that best suited them. We're not raising money with pre-orders as some of our contemporaries have done, we're using the $500 deposit as a legitimate means of reserving your Aptera, but also as a vetting process to prevent an over-enthusiastic supporter from clicking the 'electric' or 'hybrid' button 1000 times and skewing the data. Having genuine pre-orders helps us better plan and gives us clearer focus with investors. The deposits are fully refundable at ANY time. They're held in escrow by 'authorize.net (http://www.authorize.net/)' ...we can't even touch them.

[Dolphyn]

For what it's worth, in 2006 I placed a $500 deposit on a Tango T100 (http://www.commutercars.com/). My check was made out to Adept Escrow and I received a confirmation notice from them. I have very little faith that this vehicle will ever be manufactured, but I can contact the escrow company for a refund any time, so I have no doubt that I will get my money back if there is a failure of Commuter Cars Corporation.

With Aptera, I have more faith that the car will be produced ... but less faith that I would get my money back in the event of failure (although Speednut's information above is very reassuring).

It's strange that Steve once said funds are held in escrow by authorize.net, since they are a credit card processing company and not an escrow company. The word "escrow" does not even appear (http://www.google.com/search?q=escrow+site%3Aauthorize.net) on their website.

[Aptera#1434]

I live in the SF Bay Area and saw one of these cars on Highway 101 two weeks ago. It was in the fast lane going 75+ mph.

[ciege]

Man, talk about Ugly!

[Pegasus]

FWIW, I reserved a typ-1h back when it was open to national reservations. Once they decided to limit to California, they refunded my $500 within a couple days. (I did it with credit card, so they just put it back on there.)

[garygid]

On Aptera's Reservation page, it says
"... fully refundable $500 deposit that is held in an escrow account ..."

(I added the bold font.)

[Marc]

The Bernie Madoff scam was so large, implying so many people were complicit, including regulators, that we SHOULD be questioning everyone that says "trust me".

We are in a Madoff economy - lets hope the fraud rabbit hole has an end, and a quick one at that.

[Apt3448]

I could have put $500 in the stock market when in stead I decided to reserve an Aptera slot... So far, this Aptera 'investment' of mine has outperformed the market by double digits! So for the short term, leaving my money in that escrow account might just be most sensible, regardless of the developments at Aptera Motors.

[speculawyer]

I could have put $500 in the stock market when in stead I decided to reserve an Aptera slot... So far, this Aptera 'investment' of mine has outperformed the market by double digits! So for the short term, leaving my money in that escrow account might just be most sensible, regardless of the developments at Aptera Motors.
:sign0020:

But that is so very true.

And that 'investment' might actually increase in value. If Aptera starts to deliver and gas prices start going skyward again, that place in line might become quite valuable.

[mmalc]

I have Emailed Aptera since befor Christmas to get my $500 dollars back! I still have not heard a word from them! What is up?
As noted elsewhere, they've been on holiday...

I'll join in with others on this one now:

Please do not feed the troll.

[H1605]

Has anyone that requested a refund actually gotten any reponse from Aptera or received their deposit back yet?

..Just curious...

[Appy2475]

I have requested my deposit back in two emails. Nothing back from either one. I plan to call today the phone number that was posted 1-760-447-2300. I was hoping they would react to the email though. Disappointing.

Cheers,
Allen

[H1605]

Please post an update if you make contact!

[KarenRei]

Has anyone that requested a refund actually gotten any reponse from Aptera or received their deposit back yet?

..Just curious...

Lots of people have. There've been five or six reports of it over the past year on this forum. Some have had trouble getting contact by email while others haven't, but everyone who's wanted to has gotten their money back.

[Appy2475]

Please post an update if you make contact!

I received an email today from Todd Marion. His email is cancelres@aptera.com. He told me that my check would be coming in 10 days. I'll let you know if that happens.

Cheers,
Allen

[hill]

IdeaLab is a great reputable company that partnered with Aptera. They would have known and sued Aptera by now if this was a scam.

Idealab is a decent biz, and my hope and prayers are with Aptera. Our deposit (made many months ago) put us in the bottom 1,500's on the wait list. I suppose many are curious why Aptera hasn't communicated an "Eescrow Account Number" of sorts. For example, you buy Realty through any traditional batch of realtors, and your transaction goes through an escrow company ... you get the information too ... the escrow company's name, phone number, your own escrow account etc. Am I freekn' out because this isn't the case with my spot on the list? No, but that's only becaused we're in a position that $500 wouldn't kill us, in some unlikely event. That's not the case with everyone though.

It'd be way-cool if there was communication about our reservation spots "changing" too ... due to the folks that backed out / gave up their reservation spots / got their money back. That change/refund group would put us "officially" in the 1,400's. Oh well.

[Tlee]

Our deposits are not put into escrow accounts, they are put into the working capital and are probably noted as a liability on their balance sheet. If they go BK there will be no refunds. But if someone can't afford to risk $500 then they shouldn't sign up. C'mon folks, we're supposed to be grown-ups. Have we all bought into the the notion that society should always insure our every decision?

[KarenRei]

Tlee: It's already been verified on this forum by visiting Wells-Fargo that Aptera has a Wells-Fargo escrow account -- and it's from that account that the refund checks come when people ask for a refund. So, unless you think Wells-Fargo is in cahoots somehow, or have some other explanation as to how that could work...

[autosellers]

I have doubts. The company is always busy when asked about first delivery. I paid my deposits and waited, patiently. Now we are in a severe financial crisis. Big Three needed help. Aptera asked for nothing, and did not open their books yet. This is why I am worry. You people can wait for the Chimera, not me.
By the time they will have (if they will) a limited production, already the big players would have launched their competing models at a lower price. See Nissan Leaf, as an example.
:scared0008:

[KarenRei]

See what about the Leaf? 5,000 lease-only vehicles next year, mostly targeted at fleets?

[autosellers]

Yeah, really. The issue remains. Money paid for deposits may be all lost. And do not give me the story about an Wells Faego escrow account. The company has a checking with Wells Fargo. There is no trust account. If they fold, you can kiss your deposit goodbye. Fare Well. Did you ever asked if they generate any income to pay the employees, the execs, rents, utilities? They use the deposit fund. Until is all gone, because less people are jumping in now, due to economy. There is a real danger here.
Moreover, the Leaf was an example of what other companies are achieving (and producing) while Aptera misses deadline after deadline.
I read here that people are asking the deposits back, but the company keep delaying sending the checks. Is this a hint, or what?
I’ll try to get mine back.
:jumping0006:

[turbo wing]

In the past I have commented on Aptera's method of doing business, I have been criticized for being negative and called a troll, then criticized for my spelling and all this time I was pointing out the truth, now as you can see its all coming around to bite every one who was so loyal to Aptera, Has any one ever figured out why Aptera has gone so quiet?, I know what's going on, The guy they recently hired to run the show is the same guy that ran three other large specialty auto manufacturing companies into the ground and he is and will run Aptera into the ground as well, if you don't believe me go do some home work before you criticize my comment or my spelling and grammar

[rayfellow]

Hmm.. 4,000 deposits times $500.00 is what... $2 million. Just enough to buy a small home in the 90210. Or how about $20K each for the 100 employees at Aptera... But wait! How much is left after paying some hard costs for vehicles, equipment and rent... all needed to create the illusion that they are actually getting ready to produce a vehicle? So... take what's left of the $2M - maybe $4.35 - enough for an In and Out burger.. keep the change.

[magnru]

Look at entry #14 this thread by Speednut confirmation by Wells Fargo that your $500.00 deposit to Aptera was indeed placed in an escrow account.

[Tlee]

Turbo wing,

Well said. And I really mean that. I was the one who criticized your spelling and grammar. Your current message is clear and readable. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm a writer and when I submitted my first manuscript my editor tore me a new one. It hurt, but it made me a much better writer. And, by the way, I do share your concerns. It's just that I've lost so much money in the last year on other investments that another $500 seems inconsequential.

[mmalc]

In the past I have commented on Aptera's method of doing business, I have been criticized for being negative and called a troll, then criticized for my spelling and all this time I was pointing out the truth, now as you can see its all coming around to bite every one who was so loyal to Aptera, Has any one ever figured out why Aptera has gone so quiet?, I know what's going on, The guy they recently hired to run the show is the same guy that ran three other large specialty auto manufacturing companies into the ground and he is and will run Aptera into the ground as well, if you don't believe me go do some home work before you criticize my comment or my spelling and grammar

This is just passive-aggressive asininity.

It has been clearly established that deposits are in escrow. It is well documented here that others have successfully received their deposits back.

As to the question of why might Aptera have gone quiet...? Perhaps they've discovered that they're roundly criticised whether they're communicative or not. So they might as well simply concentrate on getting the job done.

[mmalc]

Yeah, really. The issue remains. Money paid for deposits may be all lost. And do not give me the story about an Wells Faego escrow account. The company has a checking with Wells Fargo. There is no trust account. If they fold, you can kiss your deposit goodbye. Fare Well. Did you ever asked if they generate any income to pay the employees, the execs, rents, utilities? They use the deposit fund. Until is all gone, because less people are jumping in now, due to economy. There is a real danger here.
Moreover, the Leaf was an example of what other companies are achieving (and producing) while Aptera misses deadline after deadline.
I read here that people are asking the deposits back, but the company keep delaying sending the checks. Is this a hint, or what?


"You lie."

[autosellers]

Hard cost for vehicles? Therefore you say the deposits are already spend? This is what I said, but members beleive there is what, an escrow account? You made my point.
And, BTW, the company should not need our deposits for hard cost, or any cost. They should have their own funds for that. If they use our deposits, than this is a sign of deep financial problems.
Now what, are you an Aptera employee?

[autosellers]

Would you please explain? Where is the lie?

[autosellers]

If you would know anything about protected funds, you should also know is called: TRUST ACCOUNT. There are rules on opening and maintaining a trust account, and when money are refunded, the money MUST be refunded with accumulated interest. If you ever placed a deposit with Edison, Water Company, Board of Equalization, you would understand.
Bottom line: there is no escrow, and I was not informed about a trust account. Therefore, they are using the deposits. I stand firm on my statement, unless someone can show factual evidence of a protected account, something like a simple account name, number, or holding bank.

[autosellers]

Asking for a refund is like waiting in line at DMV. I meant phone line, not in person. Did you try to get a refund? Good luck there.
I think measures should be taken by the AG of California to safeguard our money. Aptera is silent on how our money are secured. Is time to make them talk.

[autosellers]

"I stand firm on my statement, unless someone can show factual evidence otherwise"
Meaning, Trust Account or any form of protected deposit. I know people are getting money back without interest and it takes more than 30 days for a check to arrive.

[mmalc]

"I stand firm on my statement, unless someone can show factual evidence otherwise"
Meaning, Trust Account or any form of protected deposit. I know people are getting money back without interest and it takes more than 30 days for a check to arrive.

Please provide evidence that you did not, in fact, rape and murder a young girl in 1990. I think the fact that you haven't provided any documentation about any acquittal is very suspicious.

[autosellers]

HaHaHa, you must be a party clown. Nice try.

[OC-LA driver]

We've sent our money directly to Aptera. A trust or formal escrow requires a trustee or escrow officer, i.e. an impartial third party who holds funds and disburses them only as the other two parties agree. This is not a trust nor an escrow.

Aptera does not have to account to us as to how they are using the funds currently. They have stated they're on deposit in a bank account, and they'd be wise to keep them there. Kind of like you setting aside funds to pay taxes next April...you can raid them but you'd better have the money when it's needed or face onerous penalties. I presume none of Aptera's funders want to risk being sued as scam artists, taking deposits and failing to deliver a product or a refund, especially after using language which might invite complaint that there was no escrow.

If we don't trust Aptera to make best efforts to preserve and return our refunds, we probably shouldn't trust them to develop a safe and desirable vehicle. I suggest that we all consider our deposits to be at risk. And I for one trust them on both counts.

[imlucid]

HaHaHa, you must be a party clown. Nice try.

Have you tried getting your deposit back? If not, why all the speculation?

If you really don't trust Aptera, get your deposit back (if you have one).

Only in the case that you weren't able to get your deposit back would I give an ounce of credence to the FUD you appear to be trying to spread.

sigh.

[KarenRei]

Please provide evidence that you did not, in fact, rape and murder a young girl in 1990.

What, are you accusing them of being Bob Saget? :)

[magnru]

Those who want their $500. back go ahead. But when the spectacle of Aptera's on California roads is observed by the polulace you'll be at the back of the line, a very long one.

[autosellers]

I have deposits, me, my doughter and my wife and we can not get the money back. There is no return phone call from Aptera, no answers to emails. I just read from another member that he received an email from Aptera and his refund check will be issued in TEN days. I've not even get that yet.
Now I need to know the insides.

[autosellers]

We've sent our money directly to Aptera. A trust or formal escrow requires a trustee or escrow officer, i.e. an impartial third party who holds funds and disburses them only as the other two parties agree. This is not a trust nor an escrow.

Aptera does not have to account to us as to how they are using the funds currently. They have stated they're on deposit in a bank account, and they'd be wise to keep them there. Kind of like you setting aside funds to pay taxes next April...you can raid them but you'd better have the money when it's needed or face onerous penalties. I presume none of Aptera's funders want to risk being sued as scam artists, taking deposits and failing to deliver a product or a refund, especially after using language which might invite complaint that there was no escrow.

If we don't trust Aptera to make best efforts to preserve and return our refunds, we probably shouldn't trust them to develop a safe and desirable vehicle. I suggest that we all consider our deposits to be at risk. And I for one trust them on both counts.
Wow, but they must! Aptera should inform each depositor on the status of their deposits. And if they do use the funds, than be sure I am entitled to know for what my money are used.

[paddler13]

Good grief, if I was Aptera I'd ignore all this garbage and paranoid ramblings and just focus on the job. It doesn't matter if Aptera says or does anything whatever it is some nut will find something to whine about. It is getting pretty tedious, and repetitive.

Aptera, if by some fluke of masochism any of you are still reading in these threads please, by all means, keep your heads down, ignore the WATB's and keep on with the work you are doing.

The only thing that matters is what rolls out the front door, as long as it is a solid product it is fine, please take your time and get it right.

[KarenRei]

Autosellers:

I'm getting complaints about your conspiracy theories being annoying. Please move on to more productive avenues of discussion.

[Stroke]

Autosellers:

I'm getting complaints about your conspiracy theories being annoying. Please move on to more productive avenues of discussion.
Hello Karen: I really think that autosellers has a perfect right to voice his concern, the subject is pertinent and requires more than just full faith. The object of a forum is varied opinion ( polite and logical and constructive ) Your opinions are always valuble and appreciated. People should not complain about freedom of speech.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi "autosellers",

You have made your point abundantly clear. IMO you are attempting to spread FUD, and I seriously doubt that you yourself have a deposit with Aptera -- can you prove that you do?

[KarenRei]

Hello Karen: I really think that autosellers has a perfect right to voice his concern, the subject is pertinent and requires more than just full faith. The object of a forum is varied opinion ( polite and logical and constructive ) Your opinions are always valuble and appreciated. People should not complain about freedom of speech.

There's a fine line between free speech and trolling. Irregardless of your view (which I do respect), Autosellers just ignored a direct warning from a moderator. As such, his posts from that point on will be deleted and he will receive a one-day ban (the shortest ban I can give; I would have preferred a two-hour ban).

We can go ahead and debate the merits of allowing conspiracy theories on this board, but one should not ignore direct warnings posted by a moderator.

[turbo wing]

Turbo wing,

Well said. And I really mean that. I was the one who criticized your spelling and grammar. Your current message is clear and readable. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. I'm a writer and when I submitted my first manuscript my editor tore me a new one. It hurt, but it made me a much better writer. And, by the way, I do share your concerns. It's just that I've lost so much money in the last year on other investments that another $500 seems inconsequential.


Tlee
Thanks for your comments and no worries I appreciate and respect your opinion and honesty

[autosellers]

Moderator, please tell me what was your warning and how did I ignored it. I say you just delayed my post due to the fact that I stated I will contact the authorities, nameley the California Attorney General and ask them to look into this.
Is this a violation of your warning?

[Stroke]

Moderator, please tell me what was your warning and how did I ignored it. I say you just delayed my post due to the fact that I stated I will contact the authorities, nameley the California Attorney General and ask them to look into this.
Is this a violation of your warning?
To all posters, with both negative and positive comments. I found this thread extremely informative and all comments, questions, assertions: both intelligent and debatable, which is as it should be. Autosellers: Please be sure to let us know when you get your deposits back.............................Thankyou. PS: I have been following autosellers comments since post # 36 and could find no fault. Possibly wild accusations......so what? That is the very object of the forum and of the Internet. Autosellers is just trying to get the facts,Mam.:character0029:

[KarenRei]

Moderator, please tell me what was your warning and how did I ignored it. I say you just delayed my post due to the fact that I stated I will contact the authorities, nameley the California Attorney General and ask them to look into this.
Is this a violation of your warning?

At the top of this page:

Autosellers:

I'm getting complaints about your conspiracy theories being annoying. Please move on to more productive avenues of discussion.

You immediately proceeded to ignore the warning and continued to post right after I wrote that. Before posting that warning, I had already had to delete dozens of similarly conspiratorial posts which you had been posting off-topic in a thread about the reservation graph. There are certain standards we expect users to live up to. One of them is not to be disruptive. Once I start to get complaints, that's a good indication that you're being disruptive. Another is to try to stay on topic. While we're usually forgiving about this, once it goes on for as long as it does, and is dominated by a single person posting over and over (as happened in the Reservation Graph thread), that crosses the line.

Since Stroke is interested in hearing from you how things go with getting your deposit back, please feel free to post that. But since numerous people have been getting annoyed with your conspiracy theory that Aptera raised tens of millions of dollars of VC funding and built real, acclaimed vehicles and hired a slew of top notch industry talent all to defraud 4,000 people out of $500, I'd recommend you take a break from pushing it. Otherwise, I'll probably start getting complaints again, and well... I'd rather not have to deal with that.

[Stroke]

OK Karen, I did not know of all these deletions on the reservation graph. I was only looking at this thread.

[evmavin]

Does bankruptcy cover escrow accounts? Assuming it is a "true" escrow account and not some variation is it exempt? Does anyone know this law well enough to comment?

[wcabdefense]

Technically, Escrow involves a 3rd Party holding funds, title, goods, etc until both parties perform their contractual duties. If the Deposits are in Escrow as represented, Aptera has no right to the funds until they customize your car. Since they have no right to the money until your car is being prepared, BK should not touch the funds.

[randyd]

The last I heard, Wells Fargo was the trustee and was holding the funds that were not "locked in".

[hill]

Well, I'm movin' up in line. :)


+1

! ! !

[Rat]

Escrow does indeed mean a third party holds the money, not Aptera, and is bound by fiduciary duty to hold it for your benefit according to the terms of the agreement. If the money is in escrow it should be safe unless the escrow company goes bankrupt and is not insured. I haven't heard of that happening in California or anywhere else. In California an escrow agent must be licensed and bonded (see Cal. Fin. Code Sect. 17000 et seq.) Perhaps someone who has received his/her refund can tell us whether the check was on the account of Aptera or the account of an escrow company (assuming it came by check and not on a credit card). If it came as a credit card credit, then it is probably possible to tell whether it was credited by Aptera or someone else from the statement. If the money is not in fact in a licensed escrow account, i.e. a third party, then Aptera has probably committed fraud and the executives who made the false representation that it was held in escrow can be held criminally as well as civilly liable if any losses result to the depositors. For examples search cases like PinnFund (another San Diego startup). Of course, sometimes people do commit fraud and it is possible to lose money, as that case shows, but the delays reported here seem consistent with slow processing, changed addresses and phone numbers, etc. I haven't heard of anyone on this forum who didn't eventually get their money if they requested it. If you can't get through with an e-mail or phone call, then send a letter. I believe my $500 is safe.

[OC-LA driver]

I am convinced it's not in escrow since my only communication has been directly with Aptera. It's just set aside in an account they intend to use to refund or credit us. The bank holding the money takes instructions only from Aptera. Aptera is in the middle. In a formal escrow, the deposit holder is in the middle.

Googling for definitions, I think Aptera's using the informal definition "the condition of being ineffective until certain conditions are met." The arrangement is often formalized by using a third party to evaluate impartially whether the conditions have been met (usualy by having the two other parties agree in writing that they've been met), then the third party transfers the cash. That hasn't been done here...but it's certainly not fraud.

Fraud is "deceit or trickery" for financial gain. I think it's clear Aptera is working in good faith to build a vehicle. If we don't get our deposits back I will attribute it to ineptitude or incompetence, and in part to a downturn and DOE kingmaking, but not to intentional theft by trickery.

I am critical of some decisions made by Aptera, but I see nothing to indicate illegal behavior. I can't guess their intentions. Hey maybe it is all an elaborate scam to steal a couple million in depositor funds! This just doesn't make sense however and I think it's not helpful to Aptera to imply.

[magnru]

http://www.apteraforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273&stc=1&d=1259779499 magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'

[OC-LA driver]

Right, but this letter shows what instructions Aptera has given to Wells Fargo. The only way to get funds is to ask Aptera to please instruct Wells Fargo to send the money to you. Wells Fargo can refuse to take your call and refuse to disburse funds to you, and legally you have no recourse against Wells Fargo.

Aptera can give new instructions to Wells Fargo invalidating what is shown in this letter, don't you think?

IMHO that's not an escrow. It's an informal set-aside.

[magnru]

The Key Words stated "Aptera does not have access to this account". My understanding is that Aptera cannot touch the money unless you purchase the vehicle. If they become insolvent they cannot use your deposit and it will be released to you by Wells Fargo. I trust my brother in law lawyer on this one so I feel relatively safe. Of course more folks dropping out lessens my wait if the vehicle is produced. If not, I'll only loose the small interest I could have made on the $500. magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H

[isolar2go]

Just received an email from Aptera with the great news that they have refunded me my $500

Now we have to wait 3-5 business days to see if it hits my account......

[gregwashburn]

I asked for my deposit a few weeks ago. It was credited to my card about 5 business days later. I have since changed my mind and made a new reservation.

[Dar8888]

I still have not gotten my deposit back from Aptera since August of 2011. It's now Dec 2011, all of the emails are not working. Did everyone else get their $500.00 deposit back yet? Who do I contact to get my money back?

-Dar

[Grendal]

Just read through the "report cancellations here" thread. Plenty have gone into detail about how they got their refund. Aptera is gone and there is no one to reach. You need to reach the Bank - Wells Fargo.

[SEGsby]

I found an address for Wells Fargo on this PDF file, reading older threads:

http://www.apteraforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=273&d=1259779500

Hope that helps?

[Dar8888]

Thank you for your help. Hopefully the bank will refund me back my deposit.

[SEGsby]

They are under obligation to do so, after you contact them.

Please keep us posted on your progress.