Batteries for Aptera

[Danny]

I've heard a couple of people say that Aptera is using Lithium-ion batteries. Aren't those the ones that were used on the computers that were catching fire. Altair makes Lithium-Titanate. Not sure exactly what that means I'm not a chemist, but they claim they won't catch fire. Phoenix and the SmartCar are using those batteries I think. Anyone know which way Aptera is going?

[APTERA 2356]

Hi Danny,
the Aptera is using a lithium phosphate battery I believe.

This topic has been covered please use the search function to see if the which topics has been addressed. Most of your answers are in the threads waiting for you, explore and have fun.

[KarenRei]

Yes, it's been covered a lot, but that's okay :). Laptop batteries use a lithium cobalt oxide cathode and a graphite anode. This chemistry is the most energy-dense, but it's also at risk of runaway decomposition. AltairNano's titanates replace the graphite anode, while the phosphates and spinels replace the cathode. This greatly extends lifespan and makes them nearly immune to thermal runaway. The electrolyte is still flammable if the cell is punctured and there's a significant source of heat or spark, but that's no worse than having gasoline in your car.

Phoenix was using the titanates, but they look to be switching to spinels. The current Smart is using a Zebra battery. I know they plan to switch to li-ion, but I'm not sure which variety they're going with. The titanates are great, but they're really expensive -- ~$2/Wh.

[Danny]

Thanks for the postings. I will have to go looking for that search engine. I just started using this forum.

[JoeReal]

Thanks for the postings. I will have to go looking for that search engine. I just started using this forum.

Well, the built-in search engine is only as good as the words used in the postings. It cannot work with synonyms. One of the biggest drawback is that the search engine do not index the contents of the linked articles, so it doesn't help to know with certainty if someone has reported the other linked articles previously. At least if I linked something, I try to include a couple of paragraphs or mention important information about the linked articles to overcome the search engine's shortcomings.

[Matthijs]

And I want to advise all new users to just go though the forum and read some headers. This way you will also stumble upon info. And also read this announcement (http://www.apteraforum.com/announcement.php?f=2)and thread (http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=739).

[hypermile]

The tesla roadster is able to use laptop type lithium-ion, getting a better range, but then again they have a complex cooling system to keep the batteries from exploding.

[KarenRei]

And despite how they coddle them, the rated lifespan for the pack is, if I recall correctly, only about 5 years.

It's still very impressive what they've managed to get out of them, though.

[jstdadd]

Tesla is using, if I recall correctly, a battery pack that they derive from Lithium Ion (Phosphate) batteries by A123 Systems. Their website has great detail about various Li-Ion chemistries and the pluses and minuses of each.

Tesla also has a great deal of info about the environmentals of their battery design on their website, including recycling and re-use.

It is not that the battery pack becomes useless in 5 years; it just can't be recharged above 90% of its original charge. It can still be used...I would love to get my hands on one to put in my solar-powered house as a backup energy source. Turns out their battery pack would keep my house humming for about one and one-half days.

I think Aptera could benefit by publishing some "green" articles on the website about the batteries, re-usability and recycling.

-- JSTDADD

non illigitimis carborundum

[KarenRei]

No, Tesla is using ordinary laptop cells, not lithium phosphate. Lithium phosphates weren't as widely available when they started as they are now.

It is not that the battery pack becomes useless in 5 years; it just can't be recharged above 90% of its original charge. It can still be used.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=39

However, at the end of this period the pack will have less capacity than when new (just like an internal combustion engine has less power and much worse emissions than when new). If, for example, you drive 10,000 miles per year at the end of five years you will have around 70 percent of the energy storage capacity of when new. This performance gives the Tesla Roadster battery pack the best range and lifetime combination of any production EV battery ever built.

Consider that even after five years and an aggressive 100,000 miles of driving, the Tesla Roadster pack will have more energy storage available than the Gen2 EV1 (with its high-capacity NiMH cells) had when it was NEW!

Again, that's a very impressive feat, given the type of cells they use. If my laptop still had 70% of its capacity at the end of five years of use, I'd be one happy geek ;) Even the latter example (which means ~50% capacity -- as you can see, both calendar life and number of charge cycles play a role) would still be impressive for a five year old laptop. Nonetheless, that's an expensive battery pack you're talking about and only five years of use.

Note that you can't just keep letting it degrade further and further and accepting the continually reduced range. Tesla recommends replacing the pack after 5 years or 100k miles, whichever comes first. As li-ions age, their internal resistance rises. This will not only affect your range, but your power output, charge time, heat dissipation requirements, and so on. Eventually, you're just going to have to replace it.

[jstdadd]

Good points, all. I assume we're going to be in the same place with Aptera, unless the new "McCain Battery" comes along before we get ours!

[gg222]

It will be ready by the time the first hybid comes along. :)

[jstdadd]

some grad student at MIT read that just as he was finishing his grad research on his new battery, and now he has to wait until January 21 to finish delivering his thesis!

:evilgrin0023:

[hypermile]

some grad student at MIT read that just as he was finishing his grad research on his new battery, and now he has to wait until January 21 to finish delivering his thesis!

:evilgrin0023:

Gordon Freeman?

[Stroke]

I've heard a couple of people say that Aptera is using Lithium-ion batteries. Aren't those the ones that were used on the computers that were catching fire. Altair makes Lithium-Titanate. Not sure exactly what that means I'm not a chemist, but they claim they won't catch fire. Phoenix and the SmartCar are using those batteries I think. Anyone know which way Aptera is going? The smart car is not a HV or EV

[Danny]

The SmartCar that I was expecting to see in Glendale a week ago is an EV, although they did mention something about an electrolytic hydrogen generator. Since the vehicle has been delayed, I was unable to get more information about the generator. They still claim it is an electric vehicle with the generator just charging the batteries. Without talking to the manufacturer (original or third party), I can't verify what they are doing with this vehicle.

I mentioned to the dealer that using electrolysis to charge an electric battery seemed a little strange, but she said I would have to talk to the manufacturer.

The availability of the vehicle has been delayed about two weeks now. Still no word as to when it will be available.

[speculawyer]

The smart car is not a HV or EV
There is a Smart EV . . . but it is a conversion done by Zytek. The Smart EV is only available to some fleets. http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=153

However, Daimler has announced that they'll start making a production Smart EV
http://www.leftlanenews.com/electric-smart-fortwo-four-seater-model-due-in-under-three-years.html

[sk8ndad]

They're testing the Smart EV in England now. http://www.autobloggreen.com/tag/smart-ev/

[Danny]

Here is the link to EnVironmentalMotors. This company is selling EV's in conjunction with a Honda dealer in Glendale, CA. This link goes straight to their description of the SmartCar EV.

http://www.environmentalmotors.com/smartCoupe.html