Forward, Park, Reverse, but what about Neutral to ROLL the Aptera?

[daddio]

There have been threads on this.. e.g.: http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=537&highlight=neutral. and we hear how easly the Apter a rolls BUT how?... If there is no NEUTRAL, how do you roll a disabled:aptera: ? There must be some type of disconnect feature?
Motorcycles have a neutral position....

[Ardie3301]

I believe that the Aptera has a direct drive connection from the electric motor, through two drive belts, to the rear wheel. I don't expect it will have a mechanical device do disengage the drive belt(s) from the rear wheel to allow it to spin freely.

But all is not lost. If there is no electrical power to the motor, then the motor ought to spin freely in "coast" mode quite nicely. The regenerative braking effect will only take place when you put your foot on the decelerate (a.k.a brake) pedal.

On a side note, Aptera has placed the Park/Drive/Reverse selector switch between the seats in a quest to keep wiring length and vehicle weight to a minimum. I do hope that there is some provision to seal this crucial switch from drink spills, dirt, being stepped on, getting clobbered by the installation /removal of the baby seat, and other abuse it will get in such a vulnerable location. Our 1992 BMW has the window switches there between the front seats. That $150 switch console has been replaced twice due to such spills. Also in that console is the hazard flasher switch. We have returned to our car many times to see it merrily blinking away. One of our dogs keeps stepping on the switch. )

-- Ardie

[garygid]

Safety:

Yes, the ON switch and the P/R/D selector should be liquid-proof.
Is there a picture of the selector used in the Mk-1?

Probably a Neutral is not needed, because the electric motor's drive
is switched between Reverse and Drive electronically.

Also, maybe they should be relocated, because:

1. Can a child (or pet) press the main ON button when inappropriate?

2. Will the ON button only switch the vehicle "On" when in Park?

3. Can one safely switch between R and D rapidly, with the vehicle still moving?

4. What happens while driving (or "waiting" at a signal light) if a child
turns the R/D switch and the driver does not notice?

[evolutionmovement]

Good point. There must be a lock out or preventive circuitry so that you can't easily switch from drive to reverse while in motion unless you intend to.

[Ardie3301]

The Aptera's park/drive/reverse selector is briefly shown in one of the many Aptera videos (I've forgotten which one, maybe the "tour" video) as a rotary selector switch located between the two seats. Its about 2-1/2" diameter, I'd guess.

Stepping on it shouldn't cause problems, but it doesn't look liquid-proof or tolerant of much abuse. Pour a Coke on it and ... ?

It isn't enough of a challenge that the "rear view mirrors" aren't anywhere near the A-pillars anymore. Now I'll have to hunt for the gearshift, too.

I'd rather prefer a longer wiring run and have a shift knob on the steering wheel column like cars of the 60's -- more for comfort of something I once knew. Hey! or maybe that old pushbutton selector on some Dodges (and Waring blenders). That might be more Aptera-like, and out of the way of errant coffee cups.

In any case, if "Neutral" isn't there already, it shouldn't be difficult to add it in -- as long as its needed., and it may not be. Nor may it be desireable. With the motor off, er, not running, there won't be anything to keep you from coasting or manually pushing the car.
For this very reason, I expect to see the "parking pawl" engage (we did decide that the Aptera is going to have one, didn't we?) once the car has come to a stop - keeps it from rolling downhill at those San Francisco stoplights, too.

-- Ardie

[Raiyn]

Stepping on it shouldn't cause problems, but it doesn't look liquid-proof or tolerant of much abuse. Pour a Coke on it and ... ?


....so much for a Coke and a smile? :happy0025:

[garygid]

I am more concerned about a small child (or other person) switching
from Fwd to Reverse while at a stoplight and then having the vehicle
shoot off in the wrong direction and crash when the light changes.

Or, switching while driving at higher speeds ... presumably that
would be bad also, right?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Has anybody else driven a Prius? The shift lever is all electronic, and it will not let you shift into reverse while moving forward -- you can push the lever into the R position, but nothing happens. Ditto for park. And it beeps when you are in reverse (mildly) to remind you what gear it is in.

I think there can be logic used to prevent the wrong thing from happening.

[garygid]

If Aptera's "gear" selector was just a small electronic control,
then the wire length would not matter and it could be placed
virtually anywhere. But, we do not know what it really does,
or how it will be interlocked.

In any case, I think it is a poor choice to have it located
where a child could have easy access to it.

[aptera1213]

Safety:

Yes, the ON switch and the P/R/D selector should be liquid-proof.
Is there a picture of the selector used in the Mk-1?

Probably a Neutral is not needed, because the electric motor's drive
is switched between Reverse and Drive electronically.

Also, maybe they should be relocated, because:

1. Can a child (or pet) press the main ON button when inappropriate?

2. Will the ON button only switch the vehicle "On" when in Park?

3. Can one safely switch between R and D rapidly, with the vehicle still moving?

4. What happens while driving (or "waiting" at a signal light) if a child
turns the R/D switch and the driver does not notice?

i assume you are asking about a child in the front passanger seat and not the back seat?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3003/2666155171_2f7b0bbc76_o.png

the dial and start button could easily be moved to the console...but

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3245/2666978714_d4216a8ca3_o.png

no child in the back will be able to reach this. but a passenger? yes


as for the others concerns...i will assume also that you can't move the dial unless stopped...and that you can't start unless in park...with your foot on the brake...kinda like my scooter won't start unless i have the brake engaged...or like my wife's car won't start unless it is in park

[garygid]

Yes, a child or young passenger, not an infant.
So, unexpectedly switched to reverse while at a stop light example.

[Apt3448]

Rather a cheap looking dial, anyway. My toaster looks more high tech than that.

[KarenRei]

The Mk1 was assembled in somewhat of a rush, from the articles I've read. All along, they've had a very aggressive schedule, and it's pretty amazing how much they've gotten done in this little time. I wouldn't be surprised to see more "robust" looking controls in the production version.

[n_dawg]

Interesting counter-source (http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237853.html?page=6):

You can toggle a small switch between the seats for Park, Drive, Neutral and Reverse.

Weird. Maybe they were just ‘on auto-pilot’ when they wrote that?

The Mk1 was assembled in somewhat of a rush, from the articles I've read.

Heh, like how it was finished 45 minutes before the launch party (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/09/26/business/news/7_01_009_25_07.prt)? lol

[Apt3448]

The Mk1 was assembled in somewhat of a rush, from the articles I've read. All along, they've had a very aggressive schedule, and it's pretty amazing how much they've gotten done in this little time. I wouldn't be surprised to see more "robust" looking controls in the production version.


I'm trying to resist starting a new thread on ideas for the coolest switch...

Regarding the possible 'unauthorized' switch by a child from neutral to reverse during a stop at the light: Trucks have a warning sound (for the outside world) when they back up, I can imagine likewise a sound (only audible inside) when you switch from P to R or to D. You would hear a chime (insert cool sound here) and the main screen would flash a large D or R for a few seconds. Would that somewhat alleviate the concern?

[garygid]

Prominent Visual and Audible warnings would certainly help.

It would be especially nice if we could configure the
warning to "silent" if we chose to override the default
(like when we are alone in the vehicle).

Some "safety" interlock procedures might help also.

I would like to be able to configure my Aptera to require the driver
to input a "pin" or "password" before the vehicle will move.

A different "under duress" or "valet" password would allow the Aptera
to go only a mile or so and then slow to a stop, simulate an
"out-of-battery" condition, and alarm loudly. Only my master
password would reset it.

Or, the "teenager" password, to limit the upper speed, and
the range to user-set values.

[aptera1213]

ha, teenage mode...car won't drive if anyone is on a cellphone or texting while driving

[garygid]

Yes, one could even draw a GPS "fence" on the map and the
Aptera would not continue to drive outside the boundary line.

[Apt3448]

Ah... Teenage mode...
- Car will provide loud health warnings in the 'annoying NY jewish momma voice mode' when parked without people exiting for longer than 5 minutes.
- Volume control on the music and no possibility to change stations/playlists while in 'D'.
- Wheel pants rase to maximum height when teenager tries to parallel park (think of old Tom and Jerry cartoon with women screaming and raising skirts when seeing the mouse).
- Breathalizer on the key chain would be cool.
- speed limit for sure...
- Oooh I like the GPS fence, that is so hight tech! Until the kid manages to program some mean counter trick (GPS drives you to their soccer practice when you punched in violin lessons..)


With regards to the other controls Gary mentioned: optional, please, I don't need any password, just cannot see the use of it. As for valet parking, since one of those broke my $300 blinker switch ('that was a pre-existing condition, sir') I avoid those - and I enjoy the walk.

Warnings, however, should not have an override, who would consider turning it on when needed? Safety should be passive.

[n_dawg]

GPS fence? Shield the antenna. "Loss of signal…", problem solved

[Matthijs]

fmPiKWWOcAw
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmPiKWWOcAw)

From Youtube:
apteramotors (http://www.youtube.com/user/apteramotors) (6 months ago)

The on/off button only works when the vehicle is in park and stopped.

-The Aptera Team

[daddio]

Question for Neil Blanchard (Prius Owner).
So If you wanted to roll your vehicle (my original thread question).. how do you do that with your Prius? Is their a neutral positon too, which we don't see on the Aptera?
Thank you!

[Matthijs]

Question for Neil Blanchard (Prius Owner).
So If you wanted to roll your vehicle (my original thread question).. how do you do that with your Prius? Is their a neutral positon too, which we don't see on the Aptera?
Thank you!

I found this info here: http://scottelkin.com/archive/2005/10/13/4479.aspx

HOW TO PUT THE PRIUS INTO NEUTRAL TO GO THROUGH A CAR WASH: The car must be in the ready mode, and instead of just tapping the joystick as one does to put it in reverse or drive, tap and hold it on neutral for a second or so. The car will stay in neutral for the entire time it is being washed. The reason the car has this feature is so you don't accidentally bump the joystick while driving, and throw yourself into neutral. They thought of everything!

[Apt3448]

GPS fence? Shield the antenna. "Loss of signal…", problem solved
You'd make one nasty teenager:character0029: . But since you suggested it: where would the antenna be, anyway?

[daddio]

Thanks Matthijs.. Re No. 5...Although we don't seen NEUTRAL maybe they will have something similar (not that I would place my Aptera in a car wash) but the ability to be able to place into a neutral position for rolling is nice to have!

[garygid]

Teen mode:
Loss of GPS signal, ... humm ...

If the GPS signal drops for more than 1 minute,
the vehicle drops to 5 mph speed.
And, ... maybe the Air Conditioning turns off.

So, you can get over the fence, but ... cannot be "cool" at 5 mph?

[garygid]

In a car wash, one would have to check that the center (rear)
wheel can actually go through without catching on something.

So, when the Aptera motor is not being driven (but not in Park),
the motor might spin freely enough to survive the low speed
"tow" through the car wash, right?

[daddio]

Gary,
Hopefully... but wouldn't you rather hand wash that :aptera: ?!
I never had to wash the "underside" of a car.... A belly brush may help with the reach...

[n_dawg]

Teen mode:
Loss of GPS signal, ... humm ...

If the GPS signal drops for more than 1 minute,
the vehicle drops to 5 mph speed.
And, ... maybe the Air Conditioning turns off.

So, you can get over the fence, but ... cannot be "cool" at 5 mph?

I just knew someone was going to suggest this! ;)

That'll be popular in Manhattan. Or when there's an innocent electrical failure with the GPS. On the interstate…

[garygid]

Well, the "special" operating modes should all be user-configurable
(with the administrator/parent password) if they exist at all.
Maybe they will be part of a software upgrade a year from now.

And, I will not hand my Aptera over to a Valet service either!

[evolutionmovement]

The car washes I've seen only have the two tracks for the car wheels and have gear in between, so I would think you couldn't use a drive through. Touchless drive-in bays should be fine, though.

A shift interlock is required for cars, so I would think Aptera is going to have one.

As for the knobs, if they look cheap, I plan on spinning some custom ones from alloy or something on a lathe.

[rotus8]

You'd make one nasty teenager:character0029: . But since you suggested it: where would the antenna be, anyway?
Antenna is easy in a composite body; it is transparent to (almost all) RF. You can put the antenna inside anywhere, probably bonded under the headliner next to the dome light.

[Apt3448]

Antenna is easy in a composite body; it is transparent to (almost all) RF. You can put the antenna inside anywhere, probably bonded under the headliner next to the dome light.

I figured something like that. So a propos of our musing about teenagers trying to undo the GPS fence by covering the antenna, that would not be so easy... (I know this is all rather irrelevant, but what else am I going to do until my number comes up? Work?)

[Raiyn]

It's really easy, add an interlock switch to the brake pedal. That way if the brake isn't applied you can twist that shift knob to your four-year old delight and not have it do anything until you apply full braking sending power to the selector switch.

[garygid]

To "rock" a vehicle (out of a hole) one wants to be able to shift from
R to D and back without having to touch the brakes, right?

[PaulO]

Antenna is easy in a composite body; it is transparent to (almost all) RF. You can put the antenna inside anywhere, probably bonded under the headliner next to the dome light.


Carefull with the word composite. Composite doesn't say anything about the materials inside. Fiber glass is RF transparent, but carbon fiber is not. Carbon fiber is often used for satellite dishes due to its reflectivity. As long as the antenna is on the outside of the carbon it should work.

[Raiyn]

To "rock" a vehicle (out of a hole) one wants to be able to shift from
R to D and back without having to touch the brakes, right?



Planning on doing the Baja 1000? :D

[Apt3448]

Planning on doing the Baja 1000? :D

As soon as we have the battery extension who needs Baha 1000? Think Paris-Dakar! With a low weight less chance to sink in the sand, and with the center of gravity relatively far forward towards the front wheels it must not be too hard for two people to grab the tail and lift the rear wheel out of a hole? All the while the interior keeps you nice and cool because of the solar panels on the roof, the GPS leads you to the next oasis with a fast charger....:happy0025:

[garygid]

I always wanted to do the Baja 1000, but now my back is too old.

Modern GPS antennas (based on the SIRF III chipset) are very
sensitive, and will even work sitting in the passenger seat of most cars.
Typically they work sitting in the living room of many single-story homes.

Between tall buildings, like in NY city, is always a real challenge.
Of course, a better "view" of the sky is more desirable.

Maybe it could just be under the dashboard, perhaps further forward.

[Raiyn]

As soon as we have the battery extension who needs Baha 1000? Think Paris-Dakar! With a low weight less chance to sink in the sand, and with the center of gravity relatively far forward towards the front wheels it must not be too hard for two people to grab the tail and lift the rear wheel out of a hole? All the while the interior keeps you nice and cool because of the solar panels on the roof, the GPS leads you to the next oasis with a fast charger....:happy0025:

<chuckles> Not with this version. :happy0025:

[n_dawg]

Haha, that's about as far away from commuter driving as you can get… It would certainly be a challenge.


Hey, on a more serious note, does anyone envision people taking out the BEV drivetrain and putting in a performance engine? Light-weight aero body, safe, etc. Put some LEDs underneath and you're golden.

[Matthijs]

For people who like it. I found some hardware that is used with the Motor/controller to operate.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8108/06kitswitchwv7.jpg

Edit: Re-hosted the picture.

[garygid]

No Picture ... ???

[Matthijs]

No Picture ... ???
I can see a picture just fine. :confused: Maybe this link will work?

http://bp1.blogger.com/_m91aiCJDbnU/R6z8hiqNgVI/AAAAAAAAAvM/8TE7tN39jXw/s1600-h/06_KitSwitch.jpg

[garygid]

The link "works" but says "URL not found".
Did you try it?
Does it still work for you?

Thanks, Gary

[drivin98]

GPS controlling a fence is a bad idea. GPS doesn't work in tunnels, parking garages, anywhere after a coronal mass ejection. I

[garygid]

"GPS controlling a fence is a bad idea. GPS doesn't work in tunnels, parking garages..."

Why a bad idea?
You are a teenager?
Only because the GPS fails to work in some places, or for other reasons?
If "other", what are they please?
I am interested in your thoughts. Thanks.

In most communities of the USA, the GPS usually works fine.
The "detection" algorithm could be adjusted as needed and might only
"disable" (slow gradually to 5 mph, or some such) the vehicle when
it was clearly outside the "fence" (maybe for a minute), or had lost
the GPS signals for something like more than 5 minutes.

Cheers, Gary

[n_dawg]

In most communities of the USA, the GPS usually works fine.
The "detection" algorithm could be adjusted as needed and might only
"disable" (slow gradually to 5 mph, or some such) the vehicle when
it was clearly outside the "fence" (maybe for a minute), or had lost
the GPS signals for something like more than 5 minutes.

Cheers, Gary

Great. I'll be sure to tell them who to sue when the hospital is outside the "fence" and their teenage daughter can't get her unconscious dad there in time. The media will be sure to pick it up, guaranteeing some *wonderful* publicity for Aptera Motors.

[Rat]

This thread has jumped all over the place. The obsessing over the placement of the shift lever/knob is without basis. I've had at least three cars with the shift lever in the console, reachable by anyone in the front or back seat and driven for forty five years with (at times) two kids and three cats, never having any trouble. The shift lever is reachable by the passenger in almost every car in the world. So is the steering wheel. If you have a maniac or unrestrained large rambunctious pooch next to you, driving anything can be dangerous.

The GPS fence is also silly, if perhaps interesting to talk about. As a geocacher, I have had four GPS units. They are all questionable and unreliable at various times for many reasons, most of which have been set forth here. Sure my teenage daughter was gorgeous and I had a few moments ... especially when the boyfriend showed up with a real sword and face makeup, but she made it to responsible adult (still gorgeous and still single) just fine. Forget trying to rein them in with technology. They'll beat you at that game anyway.

Of course the shifter should not allow going into reverse when going forward and should be liquid proof. That's true for all cars, although, sadly, it isn't always done, as documented above. The bottom line is should there be a center console, and I say yes. I much prefer that to steering column shifter, irrespective of the wiring length issue, for visibility reasons alone. High BMI folks might not be for that, if the cabin is narrow, but my skinny butt will fit.

[Matthijs]

The link "works" but says "URL not found".
Did you try it?
Does it still work for you?

Thanks, Gary
Hi Gary,

I got the same as you so I re-hosted the picture.

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8108/06kitswitchwv7.jpg

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/8108/06kitswitchwv7.jpg

[garygid]

1. The "Regen Brake" switch is probably "Dry" for "ON" (or "strong") regeneration
and the "Slippery" setting would then be "OFF" (or "weak") regeneration?

2. The "Drive" lever, going from "Max Range", through "Standard", to ???
Does this control the amount of acceleration available when one presses
the "gas" pedal?

3. There is a "Neutral". I guess if you press the "gas" pedal then there is
no drive power sent to the motor. Likewise, if the brake pedal is pressed,
there is no attempt to do regenerative braking?

In the Aptera, since we do not see any levers like these, these settings are
probably controlled from the computer, presumably via the Azure's CAN bus.