A Quantum Leap in Motor Technology... or Fantasy?

[c0mp13x]

The Toronto Star reported today (2/4), about a Ottawa inventor who has stumbled onto a remarkable phenomena involving magnetic fields (EMF) and an induction motor linked to a generator.

The difference in this device and other recent electronic miracle claims (EEStor?), is that it has already been demonstrated to a MIT electromagnetics engineer/professor and is currently being evaluated at the University of Ottawa.

Harnessing Back EMF to create "free" energy? (http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/2/4/3505063.html)

Toronto Star -Turning physics on its ear (http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/300042)

Toronto Star - "Holy crap, this is really scary" (http://www.thestar.com/Article/300041)

Video Demos (http://www.g9toengineering.com/backemf/demonstration.htm)

Regardless of how this pans out, it's an exciting time to be making EVs!


Oh yeah, one more thing... this guy looks like Steve Fambro's brother! :D

[KarenRei]

Please, let's keep perpetual motion machine scams off this board. The well-understood and most basic laws of physics are not up for debate.

[RoxChkPlusOny]

Sure they are! We have no idea.

[KarenRei]

No, they're not.

If we didn't have the sort of grasp on the properties of electricity that we have, you wouldn't be reading this across the internet right now. There's no secret, oogity-boogity way to make electricity come out of nowhere. The scientific community involves tens of millions of people working on millions of different research projects, and has been going for hundreds of years. And you think that somehow, amazingly, they didn't notice that sometimes electricity just pops in for free? Do you seriously believe that?

[Aptera#965]

oogity-boogity


Hey quit using that scientific terminology; you're making my head hurt!

:D

[LQUAN]

Perpetual motion device can't barely come up with enough energy to run itself, let alone adding a load to it. Energy output can't never be greater than energy input. A machine is useless if it cannot run a load or serve a purpose.

[RoxChkPlusOny]

I favor observation than equation. I'm totally up for looking at what it does and then trying to understand it. If it's turning expert heads, it's turning expert heads. I'm sure there's a scientific explanation for what they're seeing (could just be a multiplication of efficiency, for example)

[Aptera#965]

I think all the discussions about motor tech, which battery is better, etc is just great. Perhaps Fambro & Co. will be able to incorporate into the Aptera some of the insight gathered from the forum.


But I'm at the point where I just want the car to APPEAR!

Where is it!! No more delays!! I need it yesterday!!

:p

[KarenRei]

What "expert heads" have been turning? From the article: "Steorn was met with intense skepticism and accused of being a scam or hoax. Seventeen months later the company has failed, despite worldwide attention, to prove anything under scrutiny." The closest they have is Dr. Zahn, who hasn't seen it, and who, from the sound of it, is looking to basically do to it what these people do:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

And I say all of this not to be mean or anything of the sort. The fact is that the media oggles over a new perpetual motion machine every six months and tries to find the most reputable person that they can to quote as out of context as they can. The hype then dies down when the device is show to be either a deliberate fraud or a mismeasuring or some similar situation, and it doesn't get mentioned again. And this process happens over, and over, and over, and people fall for it every time.

[KarenRei]

Oh, and by the way, this man also has some kooky theories about whether or not he has to pay taxes:

http://www.cyberclass.net/taxresistors.htm

(Yes, it's the same guy, unless there's another Thane Heins in Renfrew who owns a restaurant called "The Old Towne Hall")

Please, people, don't fall for perpetual motion hoaxes.

[c0mp13x]

...Zahn is a leading expert on electromagnetic and electronic systems. In a rare move for any reputable academic, he has agreed to give Heins' creation an open-minded look rather than greet it with outright dismissal.

It's a pivotal moment. The invention, at its very least, could moderately improve the efficiency of induction motors, used in everything from electric cars to ceiling fans...

...Just before the big day at MIT, the Star spoke with professor Markus Zahn about what he expected to observe.

"It's hard for me to give an opinion," said Zahn, who admitted he was excited to see the demonstration. "I don't believe it will violate the laws of physics. You're not going to get more energy out than you put in."

He said it's easy for people to set up their tests wrong and misinterpret what they see. "You've got to look closely."

It's now Jan. 28 – D Day. Heins has modified his test so the effects observed are difficult to deny. He holds a permanent magnet a few centimetres away from the driveshaft of an electric motor, and the magnetic field it creates causes the motor to accelerate. It went well.

Contacted by phone a few hours after the test, Zahn is genuinely stumped – and surprised. He said the magnet shouldn't cause acceleration. "It's an unusual phenomena I wouldn't have predicted in advance. But I saw it. It's real. Now I'm just trying to figure it out."

There's no talk of perpetual motion. No whisper of broken scientific laws or free energy. Zahn would never go there – at least not yet. But he does see the potential for making electric motors more efficient, and this itself is no small feat.

"To my mind this is unexpected and new, and it's worth exploring all the possible advantages once you're convinced it's a real effect," he added. "There are an infinite number of induction machines in people's homes and everywhere around the world. If you could make them more efficient, cumulatively, it could make a big difference."

Driving home – he can't afford to fly – Heins is exhausted but encouraged. He says Zahn will, and must, evaluate what he saw on his own terms and time. What's preventing the engineer from grasping it right away, he says, is his education, his scientific training.

Step by step, Heins is making progress, but where it will all lead remains uncertain.

Isn't science FUN?!!!

:D

[Yanquetino]

c0mp13x: I am intrigued to know what the scientists will ultimately come up with to explain how and why the device works. For now... it echoes that memorable line from Shakespeare in Love!

[KarenRei]

I bet all of you would have fallen for "tree power" too (that was a funny hoax of this sort). Do you all believe that Uri Geller bends spoons with his mind, too?

Here, want me to make an invention that does this? Trivial. Hook a potentiometer up to a magnet or even the coil itself (acting as an electromagnet), and that'd do the trick. I can even think of half a dozen ways this same effect could happen accidentally. And I could think of a hundred other ways to recreate this effect intentionally.

Please, don't fall for hoaxes. That's all I can say.

[c0mp13x]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1371/1253872284_d58b31dd48_o.jpg

:D

[drivin98]

I think I'll wait until there's a demonstrator installed in a vehicle. Until then, I'll just get excited about cool electric motors that exist (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/02/hyundai-heavy-i.html#more).

[KarenRei]

Here's a detailed description of what's wrong with his motor:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_D ifference_Inchttp://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_D ifference_Inc

Basically, the spinning magnet is inducing AC currents in the windings around the steel rods, which is leading to alternating magnetic flux in the rods, which is inducing hysteresis drag and transferring the energy to heat. Shorting out the coils shields the steel from the magnetic field, eliminating the drag that needed not be there in the first place.

[RoxChkPlusOny]

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Directory:Perepiteia_Generator_by_Potential_D ifference_Inc

[c0mp13x]

Well, the jury is still out on this one. But, some folks (way smarter than me!) do agree that Mr. Heins at a minimum, has developed a more efficient motor. Aptera with a Perepiteia motor? Sounds like a Greek tragedy...

Heins jumped into conversation over at CleanBreak and had this to say:Re: Harnessing Back EMF to create "free" energy?

by Thane Heins on Thu 07 Feb 2008 05:56 AM EST

Dear Stephen B,

Yes and in part 5 I think; I briefly show the input power when coil 2 is producing about 220 no load volts while the other coils are shorted AND DRIVING the motor - then I use ONLY the motor to accelerate the system up to 220 no load volts on coil 2 and the motor is drawing more than 50 more watts of power than in the first case.

I know the demo is very boring for most people so it is not as technical as it ought to be. Here is an explanation I gave to someone else yesterday (who wanted to know about a mechanical rather than electrical load) which might be useful to you as well.

The prototype uses an induction motor as the prime mover. The speed increase is due to the magnetic coupling of the generator Back EMF - MMF's to the induction motor's rotor. Without this it would operate as a conventional generator prime mover scenario and decelerate under electrical load.

When an induction motor accelerates - the slip angle between the stator and rotor decreases. The slip angle dictates how much current will be drawn by the stator coil.

Maximum slip angle at startup RPM = 0 = maximum motor current.
Minimum slip angle at full speed = max RPM = minimum motor current.

The induction motor's current draw is in direct proportion to the RPM of the rotor. As the motor speeds up the slip angle decreases and the motor draws less and less current. If you talk about one you are also talking about the other.

Shorting out a CONVENTIONAL generator = maximum electrical load = maximum RESISTIVE magnetic load = maximum counter torque = maximum deceleration.

Shorting out a MAGNETICALLY COUPLED generator = maximum electrical load = maximum ASSISTIVE magnetic load = maximum complimentary torque = maximum acceleration.

The point is, for physics a load - be it mechanical or electrical is NOT supposed to cause acceleration.

In this case a mechanical brake would produce deceleration because a brake does not produce a magnetic field like a salient pole coil of wire does which is the "not so secret recipe" for success here.

Concerning your wind turbine question, look at Part 4 of the Demo which uses the Toroid Coil configuration - this was specifically designed for wind generators to reduce and ultimately eliminate "motor action" inside the generator.

I hope this helps for now.

Cheers
Thane

Thane C. Heins
Co-Founder - Potential Difference Inc.
Perepiteia Generator Inventor

"Credibility can't be invented, it has to be earned" - Tyler Hamilton - Toronto Star Columnist

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." - R. Buckminster Fuller
Dr. Zahn's report should be interesting...

;)

[KarenRei]

Well, the jury is still out on this one. But, some folks (way smarter than me!) do agree that Mr. Heins at a minimum, has developed a more efficient motor.

He did no such thing. He created a motor with a *magnetic brake* around it, then shorted out his magnetic brake. There's nothing increasing efficiency any more than had he never had the brake there at all.

In these sorts of BS "breakthroughs", by the way, they always find some scientist who at first glance can't tell what's wrong, then quote him out of context to try and make it look as though he believes its a miraculous breakthrough. Go ahead, email Dr. Zahn. I dare you. :)

[c0mp13x]

The Toronto Star columnist who originally reported on Thane Heins electric motor invention, today (2/25) updated his story with the mountain of feedback that he received. Some people were critical of the fact that the reporter even covered the story...

Toronto Star: Reaction to Story (http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/306532)

Toronto Star: Reader Reactions (http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/306530)



"I believe we sometimes miss things because we are constrained by the notion that we already know everything there is to know. The truly great minds of the world always challenge the status quo."Like the Aptera?

:D

[KarenRei]

The Aptera breaks no laws of physics. ;)