FutureCar

[kyledouglas]

I was watching a show called Futurecar, and it seemed that Aptera was more futuristic than any of the cars they were showing. :) Anyways, do you think it would be worth it to wait for the Aptera typ2? You know, let them work the kinks out. What about all those new batteries, how long do you think it will be until those become available.

[KarenRei]

Any kinks will be worked out on the Typ-1s well before the Typ-2 ("Palomar") is made. Palomar will almost certainly cost more and be less efficient. As for advanced batteries, that depends. New, improved batteries are coming out almost all the time, but they generally start out more expensive than their competition.

My advice? Wait if you must have four seats. Don't wait if you don't.

[garygid]

Hydrogen:
As batteries get better, does the use of hydrogen as a fuel become obsolete?

Using electricity to produce hydrogen, storing the hydrogen in "gas" stations,
fueling vehicles with the hydrogen, then turning it back into electricity again ...
would seem inefficient. The electricity to battery storage to electricity
again to drive the vehicle would seem to be at least as efficient, and require
much less in the way of new infrastructure, right?

Compressed air:
The compressed air vehicles apparently work for busses with HUGE
tanks of compressed air, where they can be "recharged" at night
in a central location.

No, the car that runs on compressed air is not likely to be able to run
a compressor as it is driving to create its own compressed air.

Carbon-based Fuels:
Although there are some sustainable sources of bio-mass fuels,
still the burning adds to the various "stuff" in the atmosphere.
Good for continuing to support the oil-based motors, but not
nearly as good as replacing them with zero-emission fuel motors.

Electricity:
Solar, Geothermal, and Wind generation of electricity would seem
to be very good. However, it is still relatively "cheap" and just too
easy to pollute the world by burning coal (and oil). Currently, it is
also more legal to do so.

We still need substantially better "batteries" if we are going to get long
ranges out of electric-only cars. But, quick charging options will help the
electrical situation a lot. However, getting 20 or 40 kWh into a vehicle
in 10 to 30 minutes still appears to be a challenge for the technology.

[Louv]

I was watching a show called Futurecar, and it seemed that Aptera was more futuristic than any of the cars they were showing. :) Anyways, do you think it would be worth it to wait for the Aptera typ2? You know, let them work the kinks out. What about all those new batteries, how long do you think it will be until those become available.
Yes, you should wait. Two reasons:

One, you asked the question. Therefore, you are not fanatical enough to be an early adopter. You won't be happy with a "One Point Oh" product which has bugs, weirdnesses, and a less-than-perfect support system.

Two, ... two doesn't matter. See Point #1.

Three, if you don't buy one, there will be more for the rest of us. So, please, don't buy one.

(I can't count)

[Danny]

I have to agree with you Gary, hydrogen would have to be a somewhat specialized application, definitely not for transportation. Maybe it could be used to make use of deteriorating garbage in the form of methane from a dump with a stationary fuel cell, but large-scale transportation has too many weak points for losses and inefficiencies. Compressing it alone is a significant loss of energy. Which goes onto your second energy storage method.

I think Karen beat this one up some time back. As interesting as it is as an alternative source of energy storage, we need more efficiency in the whole well-to-wheels cycle.

Biomass has some possibilities as long as it isn't displacing food crops. I suspect this will always have a niche market, but it must be recognized for that and not a large-scale replacement for gasoline. Using it as a large-scale gasoline replacement could be disasterous.

Electricity, while not the source of the power, seems to be the most well suited as a replacement for gasoline and other oil-based fuels. With batteries at their current level of storage density and cost, we are right at the edge with getting this to work on a large scale. The only problem is the source of the electricity, but that has many options that can be explored individually. That can be either good or bad too depending on which fuel is used for the majority of it, but at least there are several options.

Overall, we have to cut way back on the fossil fuels in order to avoid global warming, assuming that it can be avoided at all. The numbers that I have been reading indicate a reduction of 80-90%. It kind of gives me a headache just thinking about it.

[garygid]

If you can make good use of a two-seater, and are "located" in California,
you could make a reservation now. Then, you can always cancel it and
get a full refund later if the Aptera turns out to be something that you
cannot really use in the manner that you want.

I put in two reservations, one for an "e" and one for the "h" about a week
after I heard about it. During that week, I did some "research", and Aptera
appeared to be doing things "right". So, I "joined" them, since there was
very little to lose. Making the deposits with credit cards, it was not as if
I was spending "real" money. (grin) :rolleyes:

[kyledouglas]

Therefore, you are not fanatical enough to be an early adopter. You won't be happy with a "One Point Oh" product which has bugs, weirdnesses, and a less-than-perfect support system.

Two, ... two doesn't matter. See Point #1.

Three, if you don't buy one, there will be more for the rest of us. So, please, don't buy one.

(I can't count)

Well... I have always adopted things early, my question was more about the new types of batteries that were being discussed in the forum. I can live with less than perfect. Its just alot of money to spend on a technology that is close to a major breakthrew. And your third point was a bit... rude. I would be very happy and thankful for any type of aptera.

[PaulO]

I would say that we are constantly on the heals of major breakthroughs in energy storage. There is a lot of money going into research now. At the same time, a major breakthrough today probably wouldn't see results for another 2-3 years minimum to get cost down and reliability issues worked out. Lithium Ion has been around for about 10 years and some companies are still questioning the maturity in their next generation plug ins (Toyota sticking with NiMH).

Its like waiting around for the stock market to bottom out to buy cheap...It has passed you by the time you know it. Jump on board.

[garygid]

With the battery improvement from the standard Lithium-ion battery
to the "enhanced" Lithium-iron-phosphate batteries, we have just
gone through a significant battery breakthrough. Still, there are some
promising new discoveries in improving the cathode micro-structure inside
the battery, and we should see them in real batteries in a few years.

So, the batteries in the Aptera should be quite good, and without the
major defects of the traditional Lithium-ion battery. Then, in 5 or 10
years when batteries are better and less expensive, we might be
able to take out these, and replace them with 2 times the capacity
(perhaps a range of over 200 miles, that would be very nice) for
perhaps half the current price (currently estimated at around $5000).

I thought about the same thing, and it looked like NOW was the good
time to jump in. The downside of Reserving now is very small.

Also, I love the style of the vehicle, the Eyes-Forward feature,
and the considerable efforts toward safety.

[Louv]

Well... I have always adopted things early, my question was more about the new types of batteries that were being discussed in the forum. I can live with less than perfect. Its just alot of money to spend on a technology that is close to a major breakthrew. And your third point was a bit... rude. I would be very happy and thankful for any type of aptera.

Sorry, was meant to be silly, or funny. Not meant to be rude. See, look I've added smilies: :-)

Seriously, yes, there will always be newer and better technologies, and newer and better cars. Battery technology gets better every few years. Will it make typ-1 obsolete? Eventually, yes. But not for a while. The Aptera team surely has access to the latest battery information technologies. If I were a battery manufacturer, I'd be courting Aptera as a customer.

I'm an early adopter too. Getting the first one (and using it) is more important to me than waiting for it to be "perfect". I don't buy to "have" or show off. I buy to use. Therefore, if I have a use for it now, then step I up, throw down my cash, grab a place in line, and wait. Impatiently. :-)

[speculawyer]

Hydrogen:
As batteries get better, does the use of hydrogen as a fuel become obsolete?

I think hydrogen is dead. It is just totally dead.

It is inefficient, it is expensive make, there is no fueling infrastructure, the range is lame, the fuel cell cars are ridiculously expensive, Ballard power has bailed on on making mobile fuel cell systems, etc.

It's just dead. It probably didn't help when George Bush decided to push it. ;)

[garygid]

Some $1,000,000 per car, maybe Norwegian?, small (2 per year)
company appears to be using an Aptera look-alike body in
some of its future-concept drawings.
One seat in the center with a "neural-connected" driver.

Did anybody catch the company's name?