New CEO Paul Wilbur

[G-Jet]

Here is the link:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080903005523&newsLang=en

G

[n_dawg]

Big news! Looks like Fambro's staying on as Chief Technical Officer.

I hope this isn't like when Steve Jobs hired John Sculley…

[c0mp13x]

That is BIG news... no wonder all the silence lately.

So, Steve steps aside to let a experienced car production guy run point.

Fambro = CTO? I hope this was what Steve wanted and not some power struggle among the new blood at Aptera... I guess we'll see in the end.

As CTO, Steve and the other design engineers can focus on the last of the technical problems with the Typ-1, preparing for the Automotive X Prize, and development of the Palomar (4 seater). Production and setting up manufacturing facilities, now has its own team to lead that effort.

Ultimately, it sounds like Aptera is making a much bigger push to manufacture vehicles on a large scale than we might have thought... and as long as we (and the world) get our car, that's what really counts. I guess the funny feeling in my stomach is over the fact that all of us have become so familiar with the Aptera through the many videos of Steve and the Typ-1. Fambro is the originator, and I hope he (and Chris) remain figureheads for the company.

Go Aptera Go!!!

:happy0005: :happy0005: :happy0005:

[iwannaptera]

Wilbur is an automotive industry veteran who brings 26 years of extensive automotive experience, ranging from product planning and finance to marketing and product development for leading car companies such as Ford and Chrysler.

While I guess I can understand why this might have been neccessary, it kind of worries me that this guy's "claim to fame" so to speak is that he worked for a bunch of soon-to-be extinct dinosaurs like Ford and Chrysler.... My God, are there any worse performing auto companies left?

Maybe his real "claim to fame" is that he had the good sense to get the hell out of there....

[KarenRei]

Whether for right or wrong:

Industry talent -> Greater investment -> Higher production volumes, sooner.

So, I'm perfectly happy to support this move.

[Matthijs]

Aptera is starting to work with a few southern U.S. states for a high volume assembly plant location.
Starting to work for a plant location? Why do I feel a delay in production coming on?

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/08/picture-8.png

Also looking at this piece. Link (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/09/saleen-names-paul-wilbur-new-president-and-ceo/)

We expect a lot of good things to happen under Paul's leadership
Yeah but thats pretty difficult if you only stay there from Aug 9th 2007 till August 25 2008.

They are already working together on the 2008 Saleens, Ford Harley-Davidson F-150s, and painting all 2008 Dodge Vipers. The next generation special edition Mustangs and F-150s are also on the drawing boards for the next two years.
Man I hope he does not bring in his expertise on his recent work to Aptera. Just like Neil, look with these people were working on before joining Aptera. I also hope he is staying longer this time then his former adventure.

[palmer_md]

He was there since 2002, but his company was purchased by Saleen in 2007. A quick review of his background shows he is definitely a "car guy" and his past looks good for what he can do for Aptera in my view. I think this shows more and more that Aptera has a vision to be a major player in the auto industry and not just be a niche EV car builder.

Mike

[PaulO]

I would speculate that Steve doesn't mind taking a back seat. The company has really taken off and is probably pushing what he feels comfortable/qualified to do. He appears to be a tech guy at heart and probably still wants that as his focus. I think we are better off if he is allowed to stay on the R&D side of the house.

[futura]

I think this is the end of the beginning and I hope it's what Steve F. wants rather than what he's been forced to accept.
Don't know if this article (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2008/09/aptera-electric.html) in the LA Times has made it here yet.

This guy makes a lot of not so sanguine comparisons to other auto startups.
Cheers

[Matthijs]

Does someone has a sub on the San Diego Source? It has some interesting articles.

Aptera hires Wilbur as new president, CEO (http://www.sddt.com/news/article.cfm?SourceCode=20080903czc)
Warehouse in Vista sold for $1.16 million (http://www.sddt.com/News/article.cfm?SourceCode=20080903tra)

[A1phaGeek]

I liked the news about looking for a "southern states production facility".

That means they are likely looking at building more that 10,000 a year. Also distribution outside of California.

[KarenRei]

Very interesting warehouse article! Good size, reasonable price, right city...

[Pablo]

I talked to Steve and he told me that he hired Paul. So he's happy with the idea. It gives him more time to work on new concepts while Paul and the team work on spooling up production. Great news.

[Ceazar77]

Here's the listing for the property: http://showcase.costar.com/AppRoot.aspx?lt=1&p=53BCFBB7C4363034B5250D7321825AB8&cc=0

[KarenRei]

Whoever the buyer was, looks like they got a good deal. Asking price was $1.754 million. Also, it's completely open -- good for a factory. 2 12'x14' drive ins, good. 400A 3 phase... hmm, I wonder if they'd be charged at the factory? I don't know when Aptera plans to open a showroom, but I imagine it may be a while. 10k a year is ~30 a day, so 300kWh a day, so 12.5kW, so 6.5% of the building's power supply. That's not much; the overwhelming amount of power would still be available for running the factory. So, power looks good. On Google Earth, I count 20 parking spaces, which I'd think would be plenty for an operation of this scale. So, from a cursory look, I can't see any reason why this *couldn't* be Aptera's new building. The only issue I can think of is that at just under 10,000 feet, there wouldn't be much room for warehousing finished vehicles. Perhaps the idea is same-day pickup or delivery to your doorstep?

[pk-sd]

Does someone has a sub on the San Diego Source? It has some interesting articles.

Aptera hires Wilbur as new president, CEO (http://www.sddt.com/news/article.cfm?SourceCode=20080903czc)
Warehouse in Vista sold for $1.16 million (http://www.sddt.com/News/article.cfm?SourceCode=20080903tra)

If they just purchased the warehouse in September, I think we are going to be behind the schedule. There is no way the place will be ready for production for another six months. City permits alone can take months just in case the warehouse needs any kind of power upgrades.

[pk-sd]

I think this is the end of the beginning and I hope it's what Steve F. wants rather than what he's been forced to accept.
Don't know if this article (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2008/09/aptera-electric.html) in the LA Times has made it here yet.

This guy makes a lot of not so sanguine comparisons to other auto startups.
Cheers

Interesting article. I hope it does not mean end of Steve. Aptera king of needs him.

[Matthijs]

I talked to Steve and he told me that he hired Paul. So he's happy with the idea. It gives him more time to work on new concepts while Paul and the team work on spooling up production. Great news.

You talked to Steve? Did you ask him the dimensions of the Aptera also? :rolleyes:

[KarenRei]

If they just purchased the warehouse in September, I think we are going to be behind the schedule. There is no way the place will be ready for production for another six months. City permits alone can take months just in case the warehouse needs any kind of power upgrades.

Why would you think that? It's not like the building in Vista is the only building Aptera owns.

People on this forum have said for a long time that production is probably going to start out in very small volumes and scale up over the course of 2009. I happen to agree with that. You need to refine your production process before you try and carry it out at a rate of 30 cars a day. They've so far built half a dozen Apteras in their current facility. I see no reason why they cannot start out on production models there while they refine their process and tool their Vista factory.

[DonC]

They've so far built half a dozen Apteras in their current facility. I see no reason why they cannot start out on production models there while they refine their process and tool their Vista factory.
The press release did state they intended to start production at the end of 2008 and to begin selling in early 2009 ("and will begin initial production before the end of 2008"). That's just a press release but it didn't have to say that, so I'm assuming some production for early 2009 is still on the table.

[pk-sd]

Why would you think that? It's not like the building in Vista is the only building Aptera owns.



It just might be. No one knows for sure "the production facility" Aptera has been telling us about was just purchased last week. Rumored 10-12 Apteras might be gone after crash tests and after they are given to top brass of the company. Not to mention each and every employee in that company would love to own one of these (just like us).

Until “The production facility” is fully up and running, I doubt too many apteras making the market.

[gg222]

Not to mention each and every employee in that company would love to own one of these (just like us).
No Aptera's on ebay yet. :)

[ciege]

Talk about frustrating..................no Aptera News Letter since May, no changes to the Aptera Home page announcing their new CEO, no My Aptera site.............does there seem to be a pattern here? Other than splitting the 1e -1h list, silence.

[Apteratude]

The more a company says, the more it can get picked apart for what it doesn't say. I would like to see some regular update at least monthly on current progress/news. But...hopefully the finished product is an improvement over their P.R. team. I guess with the lack of news coming out, you'd think that we'd have seen an ad for P.R. manager on the aptera website by now. BUt really, I'm trying not to obsess over the car. As the saying goes, "A watched pot never boils." The more I think about it, the longer the wait seems.

[ciege]

Oh, I whole heartedly agree..........just like to have some kind of 'progress report' at some point from the company. I just keep checking in and wait for the Myaptera.com to be available.

[OC-LA driver]

I do not know any of the people at Aptera nor their financial backers. But as a financial guy I can say it's very common for startups founded by "tech" guys to hit a wall when the financial and management issues explode. Especially with outside money from vernture capitalists, they want to be sure they have a CEO who speaks to their concerns. With luck the new CEO has seen the contrast between firms large and small, and can avoid the problems of Detroit's megaliths. Also it's possible with all the auto assembly happening in Southern states, and component suppliers located there, it's a really smart move to look at assembling in high volumes there. Know any other automakers who've chosen land within twenty miles of the ocean in California for their assembly operations? Labor is a huge cost too.

All in all I think it frees Steve to be a product guy, it reassures the money men, and the new CEO has faced a lot of these issues already (and industry standard answers -- good and bad).

[KarenRei]

It just might be.

You think they're getting kicked out of their current building or something? They can build cars in their current building. They have built a number of them. What they can't do is mass produce them in their current building. But they never said that they're going to be *mass produced* at the end of this year. Quite the opposite, they've said that they're going to start out at a rate of only three per week.

[pk-sd]

You think they're getting kicked out of their current building or something? They can build cars in their current building. They have built a number of them. What they can't do is mass produce them in their current building. But they never said that they're going to be *mass produced* at the end of this year. Quite the opposite, they've said that they're going to start out at a rate of only three per week.

I think they will sell 4-5 cars this year to keep their word(and to keep their investors mouth shut). Rest of them produced in this facility will be absorbed within the company till they get their "newly acquired" manufacturing facility operational. I think majority of the general public (like us) will not see anything till Q3 2009.

I hope I am wrong though. But without a crystal ball, its kind of hard to know.

[KarenRei]

Why would they stop? That makes no sense. If they want to keep their investors happy, they'll want to keep getting sales. If they want to keep their word, they need to keep their three per week.

It just doesn't make sense that if you can produce something that earns you both credibility and profit, that you wouldn't. The current facility is quite capable of producing vehicles; I see no reason why they'd sit around and wait.

[pk-sd]

Why would they stop? That makes no sense. If they want to keep their investors happy, they'll want to keep getting sales. If they want to keep their word, they need to keep their three per week.

It just doesn't make sense that if you can produce something that earns you both credibility and profit, that you wouldn't. The current facility is quite capable of producing vehicles; I see no reason why they'd sit around and wait.

I don't call three cars per week producing. That would be 78 cars in fist six months. With 50+ employees and investors waiting to get their hands on these, how long do you think it will be before we will see ours.

I am sorry, I am an engineer not a cheerleader. I look at the data/facts on hand. I do not fabricate hypothetical production numbers that would give me false hope that Aptera is coming in few months.

Until they get out of this garage and move into an established production facility(Which I hope they already have) we are going to see about 4 cars a month being sold.

On the other hand it has been reported that Aptera is looking to surprise us soon. Maybe that means mass production has already started and they are ahead of their production schedule. But until I see it on Aptera.com I have keep my scepticism.

[esmith]

As a tech guy myself, I can certainly see how Steve would want to find a managerial-type guy to take his job as a CEO. It would allow him to unload tasks that are 1) boring and 2) for which Steve is not the most qualified person, and focus on interesting and important stuff.

The warehouse in Vista is WAY too small, it's smaller than their office.

[drivin98]

Does someone has a sub on the San Diego Source? It has some interesting articles.

Aptera hires Wilbur as new president, CEO (http://www.sddt.com/news/article.cfm?SourceCode=20080903czc)
Warehouse in Vista sold for $1.16 million (http://www.sddt.com/News/article.cfm?SourceCode=20080903tra)

Those buildings don't seem big enough.

[n_dawg]

Those buildings don't seem big enough.

They're not. Aptera's current warehouse if 15,000 square feet, and they've stated that they're moving into a bigger one.

[garygid]

I thought they wanted 100,000 square feet for the 2009 production.

They can probably run one "line" where they are, making
20 to 40 vehicles a month, if they need to do so.

[Apt3448]

According to this link:
http://www.sddt.com/RealEstate/briefs.cfm?PublicationDate=2008-09-03
that warehouse was sold to others than to Aptera. It seems to small, and has not enough parking for Aptera anyway. I found this Thomas Shaughnessy as someone collecting/restoring rare cars, but not Aptera's...

"Warehouse in Vista sold for $1.16 million
The approximately 9,482-square-foot industrial/warehouse building at 2443 Cades Way in Vista 92083, has been sold for $1.16 million.
The buyers were Thomas Edward and Marie Dominique Shaughnessy,... "

So whatever the place will be, not Cades way. I saw an (older?) rumor that they would go to Scott Street, Vista (on Apterafun.com). However, I haven't found any real estate activity there on-line. Perhaps a local could drive around? There are several warehouses there of around 100,000 sqft.

[KarenRei]

The main issues related to space, from my perspective, look like they'd be A) the molds, and B) warehousing (both of parts and of finished products). I'm not sure how much space will be needed for (A), but for (B), just for finished vehicles alone, at max capacity, they'd need at least 4,000 square feet per day's worth of vehicle production (unless they're stacked vertically).

If they deliver vehicles straight to peoples' doors, they won't need much vehicle storage capacity at all. If they allow for local pickup or need to keep stock on hand for delivery to dealerships or whatnot, then that could add up fast. And, of course, you also need to warehouse produced parts. I assume they'll be using some sort of "Just In Time" production method to reduce warehousing needs and reduce the consequences of defects in a part production process, but I'd think that on something that takes as long to produce as composite panels, that'd be of lesser benefit than usual.

Anyone have any estimates on how much space would be needed to produce the composite panels for 30 cars a day?

Update: Didn't realize how close Loker and Scott (and other nearby streets in that part of Vista) are -- just a couple miles. Quite convenient :)

[esmith]

Judging by that price, they won't be buying the warehouse outright, it would tie up almost half of their cash. If a 9k sf warehouse costs over a million, a 100k sf warehouse can cost 10 mil. They will lease the space instead.

[DonC]

Judging by that price, they won't be buying the warehouse outright, it would tie up almost half of their cash. If a 9k sf warehouse costs over a million, a 100k sf warehouse can cost 10 mil. They will lease the space instead.
You may be right. I have no idea. However you can get loans for commercial space. Just depends on the terms as to whether renting or buying is more desirable.

[KarenRei]

I doubt that it's a linear correlation, square footage to price. It's not like you can buy a 1,000 square foot office building in Vista for $130k.

I'd guess $7 million. I don't know how much tooling it would cost, though.

[slk23]

Know any other automakers who've chosen land within twenty miles of the ocean in California for their assembly operations? Labor is a huge cost too.

There is such a factory in Fremont, CA. It's called NUMMI and is a joint venture between GM and Toyota. There's an article in Wikipedia about it (I can't include URLs here until I've made 4 posts).

-S

[n_dawg]

You guessed it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI

Nice find, oh Mysterious S.

[SEGsby]

Pardon me, but I'm a little slow...

I just noticed your registration email is viperPBW@"removed for privacy".com

Would PBW happen to stand for Paul B. Wilbur, perhaps? Viper is also a Saleen OEM project you're familiar with, yes?

If so, do you talk about yourself in the third person, often?

Wow. I'm so terribly disappointed by your lack of honesty, Paul.

I talked to Steve and he told me that he hired Paul. So he's happy with the idea. It gives him more time to work on new concepts while Paul and the team work on spooling up production. Great news.

Uh huh. Great news, indeed. :P

[Matthijs]

Pardon me, but I'm a little slow...
We discovered that a while ago. ;) Here take a look at his garage:
http://www.motortopia.com/garage/cars/ViperPBW

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/4623/tnprofilepaulwilbur.jpg

One of the comments:

Apr 13, 2007 at 12:04 pm Awesome ORANGE SSR Paul!

Don't forget about the 1st ever National SSR gathering in Springfield MO - June 10th - 14th...

[SEGsby]

Oh, do I feel silly or what? :D

Told you I was slow. ;)

Viper is an interesting choice for a user name. It's also a cold blooded reptile; often associated with great evil.

Well, in popular literature, anyways...

[rayfellow]

Pardon me, but I'm a little slow...

I just noticed your registration email is viperPBW@"removed for privacy".com

Would PBW happen to stand for Paul B. Wilbur, perhaps? Viper is also a Saleen OEM project you're familiar with, yes?

If so, do you talk about yourself in the third person, often?

Wow. I'm so terribly disappointed by your lack of honesty, Paul.



Uh huh. Great news, indeed. :P

I laughed at the lier lier pants on fire line. Anyway the guy is consistent.... A snake. The sooner Aptera gets on to team C the better... You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

[aptera1213]

I think this is the end of the beginning and I hope it's what Steve F. wants rather than what he's been forced to accept.
Don't know if this article (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2008/09/aptera-electric.html) in the LA Times has made it here yet.

This guy makes a lot of not so sanguine comparisons to other auto startups.
Cheers
9-2008

gah, I hope futura isn't our Nostradamus....He comment from way back in 2008 is sadly spot on...

Gavin

[Grendal]

One of the comments: Apr 13, 2007 at 12:04 pm Awesome ORANGE SSR Paul!

Don't forget about the 1st ever National SSR gathering in Springfield MO - June 10th - 14th...


Do you think Paul wrote that to himself also?
:rolleye0003:

[KarenRei]

I don't know why he feels the need to lie so much. Case in point: remember the recent thing about Paul getting pulled over in DC for speeding? That wasn't Paul who got pulled over for speeding. That was Marques and Sean; Paul wasn't in the car at the time.

It's such a trivial thing; it didn't even help his story that much. So why lie about it? Why not just say "Marques and Sean" rather than trying to write himself into the story? It seems a compulsive problem for him.

[herr_doctor]

I think he meant he 'pulled the wool over'........

Riiiiggghhhhhtt.

[chijayhawker]

It is very Cheney-and-Bush-esque (the order of those names is intentional) in that it is a lie and then many denials of the obvious facts to the contrary. And look what kind of mess that kind of mentality left!

[SlowSRT4]

Whether for right or wrong:

Industry talent -> Greater investment -> Higher production volumes, sooner.

So, I'm perfectly happy to support this move.
:character0026:

[KarenRei]

Oh, shush you :tongue0015:

Indeed, I've mentioned in a number of other places my regret for initially giving them the benefit of the doubt when they came onboard. And others rightfully were more suspicious. Many of those who were suspicious were as such because the new team came from Detroit (yet funny how I get stereotyped by the Detroit folks as being somehow biased against people from Detroit nonetheless :) ). If you'd like:

User:KarenRei
:sign0019:


;)

[wcabdefense]

I think the prior post reinforces that Karen is open-minded and looking toward the future. She initially thought the Detroit team was a good plan, and they had to convince Karen that they were a bad choice. I think we mostly agree that they worked that angle pretty well in a year.

[butter]

Yeah, I'm totally with wcabdefense -- Karen, you were, as you said, giving them the benefit of the doubt. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with that; in fact, it implies that you were pushing aside any reservations in a genuine attempt to be fair to someone who deserves the chance to prove themselves.

And as wcabdefense pointed out, the ball was in their court and they flubbed it.

[Grendal]

Looking at it from a business perspective, bringing in Paul and his team would seem like the right move. It is only with hindsight that we see what went wrong.

Even the idea to make the vehicle more marketable to the masses isn't necessarily the wrong move. It's just when you factor in the lack of funds that it becomes a losing strategy.

As mentioned on the forum before they should have pushed out a number of the PP6's to customers then tooled up the production. This would have proven to investors that they had a marketable product and they would have jumped on board. At that point the government would have been eager to back the product with even more money. Then they could have unvieled the Aptera 2e 2.0 and we'd all be thinking that they were geniuses.

But that didn't happen...

[aptera1213]

Yeah, I have always thought Aptera should have sold the PP6 while still working toward PPX.

People mention that it would cost too much to retool...but I think they could have sold 500 PP6 models in the first year (late 2009 to late 2010) and shifted to the PPX.

I'm not a bean counter, but I see it this way:

Aptera goes dark while shifting to making the PPX. Even dark and short staffed Aptera burns through some money while bringing in none. And Aptera has nothing to show investors.
or
Aptera makes the PP6 for sale while making changes for next years PPX. Aptera brings in money from sales, but in running at a deficit. But that deficit is about the same as going dark (dark=no money in, little money out each month, so a deficit of say a million a month. PP6=some money in, more money out each month. So say a deficit of a million a month also.) The difference is that Aptera would be proving to customers and investors that they can actually make and sell the car. And they would have free advertising on the road each and every day.

And then the next year Aptera maybe could move out of the red and into the black with the PPx.

Gavin

all numbers randomly guessed at.

[Matthijs]

Well I don't know for sure if that strategy would have worked. If the communication would be like it has always been, how would you feel if your Aptera was "Old" after a year? Like out of the blue there is a new Aptera only insiders know about. I would be pretty bummed. I think the PP6 just could have been ready and refined if PW didn't step in and ruined it. It would have been a great and ready to go product for sure. They could have just gone from there and do minor upgrades along the way and work to a new model in like 4 or 5 years.

[aptera1213]

As I mentioned in another thread:

"Hello. We are ramping up sales of Aptera. We will be selling our current version, the 2e version 1 this fall. It will be just like you see here (insert photo of PP6) and will have fixed or split windows (your choice...It's an option! We at Aptera like options). Next Fall we will be selling the PPX with roll down windows and some other changes. You can go to MyAptera.com right now and either pick the 2e version 1 or you can opt to wait and keep your place in line for the 2e version 2 next year. Either way you will get a great car at a great price. Thanks: Your Aptera Team."

People could get an Aptera now knowing a new one is around the corner (like buying computers...they always are updating) if they like the PP6 (I prefer it) or they can wait. Either way they are not hoodwinked about what they are getting. So everyone is happy. Some can be the earliest adopter....these people usually don't mind a few rough edges and giving Aptera early user feedback. And the people who want rolldown windows and the edges smoothed and don't mind waiting, well they are happy too.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

The thing is, how long would it have taken them, realistically, to make all of the 2e preorders? Certainly long enough to get the 2h ironed out. And how long would it take them to make the 2h? Certainly long enough to get preorders from those who are only interested in a company that can produce product. How long will it take them to fill those orders? Certainly long enough to expand to other parts of the country and take orders from there.

On and on. It would have taken them years to exhaust orders with their current model -- far longer than is justifiably needed for a new model revision.

New companies must ship. That's what it comes down to. They don't have the luxury of waiting. Nobody wants to put money into a company that repeatedly can't meet its own self-imposed deadlines.

[NeilBlanchard]

I agree very much with this:

Yeah, I have always thought Aptera should have sold the PP6 while still working toward PPX.

People mention that it would cost too much to retool...but I think they could have sold 500 PP6 models in the first year (late 2009 to late 2010) and shifted to the PPX.

I'm not a bean counter, but I see it this way:

Aptera goes dark while shifting to making the PPX. Even dark and short staffed Aptera burns through some money while bringing in none. And Aptera has nothing to show investors.
or
Aptera makes the PP6 for sale while making changes for next years PPX. Aptera brings in money from sales, but in running at a deficit. But that deficit is about the same as going dark (dark=no money in, little money out each month, so a deficit of say a million a month. PP6=some money in, more money out each month. So say a deficit of a million a month also.) The difference is that Aptera would be proving to customers and investors that they can actually make and sell the car. And they would have free advertising on the road each and every day.

And then the next year Aptera maybe could move out of the red and into the black with the PPx.

The other huge advantage of this would be: each of the 2e's being driven on public roads would have generated tons of inquiries, and interest, and that would have led to ... more sales!

[10.5]

I agree very much with this:



The other huge advantage of this would be: each of the 2e's being driven on public roads would have generated tons of inquiries, and interest, and that would have led to ... more sales!

... unless there was something wrong with the pp6, and then there could be bad publicity, but this is unlikely, considering they were taking reservations.

[aptera1213]

... unless there was something wrong with the pp6, and then there could be bad publicity, but this is unlikely, considering they were taking reservations.

Unless when you drove the PP6 it would flip over and give birth to live Great White Sharks, well I don't know what could be wrong for early adopters.

One: Steve had been riding an Aptera for what, a year? More? And there were tons of test mule drives. Customer rides. Etc. I don't think there was going to be any major surprises.

Two: Early adopters know that there might be some small issues to be ironed out. That is ok, as most earlier adopters like to be helpful and look for areas to be improved. And for any early adopters that don't understand that, well the myaptera page could have a page explaining all that.

The old saying of "Perfect is the enemy of Good" works here. A good car delivered that grows and gets better is much much preferable to the perfect car that never gets built.

The PP6 was a good car. The PPX may be a better car. But that is what growth is for.

The first prius was a good car. The second prius was much better. Toyota didn't wait though for pruis 2 before delivery. Toyota understands about sales and growth and having a good product to sell.

Gavin

[aptera1213]

And Karen's sales model is spot on if ramp up is 1000 cars a year.

And I don't see Aptera making 5000 or 10000 cars a year. At least not in the first 5 years or so.

They could have sold as many PP6-7 Apteras as fast as they could make them. While they are selling those very good Apteras to the first 1000 people or so, Aptera keeps working on getting the Hybrid....etc etc.

Works great Karen. Good plan.

Best Buy is the only possible kink to that plan. Aptera wants the 2e out nationwide before the H???

Gavin

[Apt3448]

The old saying of "Perfect is the enemy of Good" works here. A good car delivered that grows and gets better is much much preferable to the perfect car that never gets built.

The PP6 was a good car. The PPX may be a better car. But that is what growth is for.

Gavin

All makes very much sense, like the other quotes here. Yet a quick look at the trouble Toyota is in right now demonstrates that making a reliable vehicle is not that easy. Assuming due diligence and so on, Toyota nevertheless go into a ton of trouble. They may be able to handle the fall-out, but that is partially because they have the financial cushion to absorb this. Would not be true foe a small start-up.
On the other hand, Tesla had some early trouble, didn't kill them. Saddest part: we may never know if the pp6 would have worked well enough...

[aptera1213]

Well that is a crap shoot always. Toyota is a good example. All their cars get tons of testing. They have made great cars for years and years. Then BOOM.

Aptera could test and change and test and test and still the PPX could have some crazy issue that kills Aptera.

It would be cruel irony if the PP6 drove for a year with no issues and then Aptera releases the PPX and it has some major problem like Toyota is having (regen braking seems like a complicated issue).

Gavin

[Apt3448]

Well that is a crap shoot always. Toyota is a good example. All their cars get tons of testing. They have made great cars for years and years. Then BOOM.

Aptera could test and change and test and test and still the PPX could have some crazy issue that kills Aptera.

It would be cruel irony if the PP6 drove for a year with no issues and then Aptera releases the PPX and it has some major problem like Toyota is having (regen braking seems like a complicated issue).

Gavin

Don't we hope it is somewhere in between crapshoot and absolute certainty?
My only point was that very much can go wrong.

[aptera1213]

Oh I agree with you. And I agree that it is sad that we will never know about the PP6.

My point back kinda echos your point. Very much can go wrong.

Very much could have gone wrong with the PP6.
Very much could go wrong with the PPX.

Aptera saying we can't release the PP6 because it might have problems is an issue. If that is a concern, it will always be a concern. IE: First: We didn't sell the PP6 because we were concerned any issues would hurt the company. So we are working on PPX. Then: We can't sell the PPX because any issues could hurt the company. So we are working on PPZ...Rinse and repeat...

Gavin

[KarenRei]

Don't we hope it is somewhere in between crapshoot and absolute certainty?
My only point was that very much can go wrong.

Look at the Mini-E. That was a conversion car with all sorts of (rather serious) bugs, released to people who paid a fortune for the privilege of just leasing it. And despite all of the problems (too numerous to list here), the consumer surveys showed that the customers still absolutely loved it.

Where Aptera was in fall of 2008 was way beyond where the Mini-E is today. And the really sad thing is, they haven't advanced all that much since then, and in a number of regards, they've regressed.

[chijayhawker]

This discussion also falls under that old proverb - The hardest step is the first one. But at sometime you will have to take that first step if you ever expect to take a journey.

[Apt3448]

Where Aptera was in fall of 2008 was way beyond where the Mini-E is today. And the really sad thing is, they haven't advanced all that much since then, and in a number of regards, they've regressed.

If we disregard the management for a second, would you be as comfortable, or as confidently, in buying what we now seem to know as the ppx? Again, this is not a question about PW and MM. If the vehicle hasn't changed all that much, it still is a worthwhile vehicle, no?
I'm actually thinking about the future, not so much about the past. If there is a good/decent/good enough vehicle, (other) management could get that to market somehow?

[aptera1213]

I don't really care much about Team A vs Team B vs the inevitable Team C (if Aptera survives).

Yes Steve and Chris seemed like good guys. Yes their hard work and creative effort brought the Aptera to life.

But ultimately I wanted to own and drive an Aptera. I was unlikely to ever hang out and be friends with Steve or Chris. I am horribly unlikely to ever hang out and be friends with Paul or Marcus.

If the PPX is a good car, delivered on time (whatever time that is) and priced right, I will buy it.

Now if the Th!nk come out first, I will likely buy that as the Th!nk is actually a better car for my NEEDS. The Aptera is a better car for my wants.

Gavin

Now that said, I do think Team A was more in line with my thinking. I think they would have brought the PP7ish to market sooner and I would be an Aptera owner sooner, if not already. And Team B's perchance for fibbing is not a quality I especially favor. Will see what Team C brings to the game.

[aptera1213]

I hope that didn't seem like a slam against Steve and Chris. I really do appreciate all they did. I wish them the best with their next efforts. Heck, depending on what they are both doing, I very well might be interested in buying or using something they make.

Truthfully, I wouldn't be at this site if it wasn't for Steve and Chris having a dream and working like crazy to make that dream take shape.

And they sold me on that dream with a great design and lots of vision and with good, fun videos and all that.

I just don't want people to think this site is a "cult of personality" and that we are mad or suspicious or wary because we all love Steve and hate Paul.

I don't really know Steve and Chris. I don't really know Paul nor Marcus.

True Steve and Chris seemed a bit more open and "infectious", but then they were selling their DREAM. It is easy to be infectious when selling your dream.

So we kinda liked Steve and Chris and hated to see them "let go." It didn't seem fair or right...but heck I have 2 kids and I've always told them to work hard, have fun, do right and know that life isn't always going to be fair. So keep on plugging.

Heck, I work in Pediatric Cardiology...I KNOW life isn't fair nor right.


So basically some of us wish nothing but the best for Steve and Chris, while still hoping Paul brings their dream to market. And if he can't, then we hope Team C brings Steve and Chris' dream to market.

Because we want to drive that car.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

True Steve and Chris seemed a bit more open and "infectious", but then they were selling their DREAM. It is easy to be infectious when selling your dream.

That's part of the problem. If you don't have passion for what you're doing, it becomes hard to instill that passion in others. Namely, investors. Hence, $30+m vs $0.

[KarenRei]

If we disregard the management for a second, would you be as comfortable, or as confidently, in buying what we now seem to know as the ppx? Again, this is not a question about PW and MM. If the vehicle hasn't changed all that much, it still is a worthwhile vehicle, no?
I'm actually thinking about the future, not so much about the past. If there is a good/decent/good enough vehicle, (other) management could get that to market somehow?

Yes, I would -- but the thing is, there's not going to be a future. How is this company supposed to land DOE funds when they can't even return investor phone calls? When they've fired most of their staff? When they've lost their buildings? When they have a SEC-charged CFO? When they're so topheavy? When the ATVM money is already tight? When Tesla had to jump through big hoops to get it? When there's dozens of other companies, including big players, scrambling for it? Yet Aptera has pinned its future on it.

That's what makes me mad. When Elon Musk and his team took over Tesla, at least Musk took a $1 salary, threw in his own money, got tons of investors, and actually built and delivered vehicles. Paul and his team have just leached the company dry while chumming up to the board.

[SEGsby]

There hasn't been any mention of a plan "B". All eggs now seem to be in one basket, for whatever reason.

That's really a bad place to be if you're in business.

[Matthijs]

Yes, I would -- but the thing is, there's not going to be a future. How is this company supposed to land DOE funds when they can't even return investor phone calls? When they've fired most of their staff? When they've lost their buildings? When they have a SEC-charged CFO? When they're so topheavy? When the ATVM money is already tight? When Tesla had to jump through big hoops to get it? When there's dozens of other companies, including big players, scrambling for it? Yet Aptera has pinned its future on it.

That's what makes me mad. When Elon Musk and his team took over Tesla, at least Musk took a $1 salary, threw in his own money, got tons of investors, and actually built and delivered vehicles. Paul and his team have just leached the company dry while chumming up to the board.

Yes I trully believe you have the right insight when it comes to the state Aptera is in. Some here right lengthy posts and seem to already go on and drink the PW/MM kool-aid. :)

[SEGsby]

Diversity of opinion is a strength, not a weakness. And being hopeful in the face of less than positive news, can be a wonderful boon to those looking for any sign of silver linings, among some very dark clouds...

That said, I do feel it's always better to have something tangible / factual to base one's personal beliefs on.

But more information will come out, one way or the other. The internet is a big, noisy place. Aptera just has to make some solid, positive noise of their own. :)

A completed PPX will go a long ways twards restoring deposit holders faith. Even finishing the X Prize Competition, will generate positive PR for the vehicle. If they actually win, that's icing on the cake. The money won't hurt, either. And the DOE loan ( if they actually get awarded ) might lead to production...

That's a big list of things to accomplish. Thus, we have a lot of things left to speculate on; Doubting Thomases and Kool-Aide drinkers, alike. But the reality is, PPX needs to be finished. And soon.

There isn't anyone here who doesn't wish them the best of success-- unless perhaps, you work for another EV car company. ;)

Till then; post one, post all. And enjoy the ride. :)

[rayfellow]

It's the ethics baby... Even from this distance I can smell a lack of it. Imagine what the DOE loan folks sniff.. and other investors. I'm afraid all will have to wait until the current Mgnt walks (because they can no longer write a check) before a team C will be able to pick up the pieces..

Just sniffing from the Philippines... where incidentally EV's makes sooo much sense. Slow traffic, short distances, Fairly cheap electricity, fairly expensive gas ($4/gal). Most all the asian countries are similar. When you think about it, the United States - long distances and hight speed - is maybe the last country where EV's make lots of sense.

[Grendal]

The thing is, how long would it have taken them, realistically, to make all of the 2e preorders? Certainly long enough to get the 2h ironed out. And how long would it take them to make the 2h? Certainly long enough to get preorders from those who are only interested in a company that can produce product. How long will it take them to fill those orders? Certainly long enough to expand to other parts of the country and take orders from there.

On and on. It would have taken them years to exhaust orders with their current model -- far longer than is justifiably needed for a new model revision.

New companies must ship. That's what it comes down to. They don't have the luxury of waiting. Nobody wants to put money into a company that repeatedly can't meet its own self-imposed deadlines.

Backtracking a bit...

I was thinking recently that Aptera, being a startup, could have used some radical ideas to bring their radical product to market.

What if, last February, they started selling the PP6 for 50K or 60K to any reservation holder willing to pay for the priveledge of owning one of the first prototypes. They could have said that these first 25 or so vehicles are for "premier buyers" and that they would be able to buy the 2e mark 2 for cost 5 years down the road (or for a discount on the 2H).

It's a bit like what Tesla did with the roadster. They sent out the first 50 or 60 with a faulty transmission, with the caveat that they will replace that transmission for free later on.

[KarenRei]

Honestly, while Tesla made some big engineering/supplier mistakes early on, I think their general strategy was sound. And that's definitely one of them -- a "signature series". Also, shipping but going over-the-top on service to overcome the initial transmission deficiency was definitely the right choice.

Imagine back in the day if Aptera had made it clear that the people who reserved a "signature series" vehicle would be one of the first 25 or 50 delivered, with various minor perks (custom vinyl graphics, founders' signatures somewhere on or in the vehicle, meet & greet w/founders, extended service/warranty, a number of options included, etc). They could have sold them out, I'm sure. And the higher cost could have made even the initial low volumes profitable.

[10.5]

If Aptera is anything like tesla, then we've got nothing to worry about with this Wilbur guy. Tesla had, what, three CEO changes a week?

[Matthijs]

Yeah but the current one is loaded...

[aptera1213]

Tesla had, what, three CEO changes a week?

I kinda keep hoping the BOD rethinks that last change and makes Team C look a lot like Team A...

That said, if Team B can get the Aptera rolling, good for them. But they better get some investors stat.

And I also think a superstar CEO could be good too...Hire Elon...Heck, hire Al Gore...A name often costs a lot, but boy can they find investors.

With the DOE money in question, getting some big investors could be the only hope Aptera truly has.

Gavin

[plainar]

I've met Paul too and didn't like what i saw or heard. Elon he is not, not even close. Elon has a track record of success, Paul does not. The only thing they have in common is they both pushed out the founders.

[randyd]

If the PPX is a good car, delivered on time (whatever time that is) and priced right, I will buy it.
I would put it slightly differently.

If the PPX is a good car, delivered in a time-window when I can buy it, and priced right, I will buy it.

My time-window is fairly broad. My vehicles are all in good shape. I don't need to buy a new vehicle any time soon. But our vehicles are paid for and getting on in years and miles. Buying something soon makes sense. So I wait. If one of our vehicles dies unexpectedly, well, we will have to buy something. If it is not an Aptera, then I won't be buying an Aptera (or any EV) for many years.

Imagine back in the day if Aptera had made it clear that the people who reserved a "signature series" vehicle would be one of the first 25 or 50 delivered, with various minor perks (custom vinyl graphics, founders' signatures somewhere on or in the vehicle, meet & greet w/founders, extended service/warranty, a number of options included, etc). They could have sold them out, I'm sure. And the higher cost could have made even the initial low volumes profitable.

I would have been a candidate for one of the signature series vehicles in 2008. I actually expected them to do just that. Don't know how much extra I would have paid, but I was on much sounder financial footing then. Back then, I would have put down a non-refundable deposit. Now, sadly, no to both.