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View Full Version : Guess what? The EEStor-ZENN deal doesn't apply to Aptera :)


KarenRei
02-10-2008, 09:57 PM
Check out Zenn's website:

http://www.zenncars.com/

Click "Learn", then "Company", then "EEstor". Scroll to "Licensing Agreement Details", then read paragraph 2, concerning what ZENN has licensed with EEStor for:

"All-electric, 4-wheeled personal transportation uses for vehicles with a curb weight of up to 1,400 kilograms, net of the battery weight, and for golf carts and similar-styled utility vehicle, and the aftermarket conversion of any internal combustion passenger vehicle to electric drive."

May I observe:
* The Aptera has only three wheels
* The plug-in version isn't "all electric"
* The Aptera isn't a golf cart
* The Aptera isn't styled like a golf cart
* The Aptera isn't an aftermarket conversion of an internal combustion passenger vehicle

In short, ZENN's license agreement *doesn't cover the Aptera*. So, if the EESU proves itself legit, which should be in the first half of this year, *Aptera is free to buy directly from them*. And, as Lockheed-Martin observed about EEStor:

http://www.gm-volt.com/2008/01/10/lockheed-martin-signs-agreement-with-eestor/

"We were very impressed. They are taking an approach that lends itself to a very quick ramp-up in production."

To top it all off, the ZENN site says this about the 52 kWh EESU:

4541 cubic inches volume

If that were a cube, that'd be 16 inches per side. You know, that seems likely to be small enough to fit in the Aptera's battery compartment in the front without any modifications. So, so sum up: there is a fair chance that we'll see something:

* Come out six months or so before Aptera goes into production
* The same module that they're building for ZENN could likely fit where Aptera's batteries go
* Would be marketable to Aptera right off the bat
* Would cost a mere $3,200, which is undoubtably notably cheaper than their existing batteries.
* Would give the Typ-1e a ~5 minute charge time (provided sufficient power) and a >600 mile range, with no risk for degradation, fire, no power leakage, etc.

The only downside I can see:
* Operates at 3500 volts, so would likely require a change in electric motors and various other electronics.

Lets all keep a serious eye on EEStor, shall we? While it seems a longshot, I'd say it's possible it could end up in an Aptera before too long. Mayhaps even before any of us get our vehicles.

RoxChkPlusOny
02-11-2008, 02:17 AM
Do you think the Typ-2 will either weigh 1,400 lbs or that they're fine with exploring other battery technologies for their sophomore release?

KarenRei
02-11-2008, 02:19 AM
I think the Typ-2, as described so far, would require relicensing through ZENN. :P Although, they could get around it by putting in a minimal hybrid power source that rarely gets used if needed. It's hard to know at this point how much ZENN would want to sit on their caps and horde the rights for themselves as opposed to relicense to its competitors.

RoxChkPlusOny
02-11-2008, 02:23 AM
I believe the Typ-1e is supposed to weigh 1,400 lbs, so I would expect by virtue of design that the Typ-2 would be heavier. Maybe the contract has built-in that we wouldn't have to worry!

KarenRei
02-11-2008, 10:44 AM
Just a note: the ZENN deal is about 1400 kg, not lbs.

twelve33
02-11-2008, 10:53 AM
Wow, seems like EESTOR really got the short end of that deal...

KarenRei
02-11-2008, 11:23 AM
Why do you say that?

RoxChkPlusOny
02-11-2008, 05:42 PM
Just a note: the ZENN deal is about 1400 kg, not lbs.

Ah, right. Thanks.

twelve33
02-11-2008, 07:16 PM
Why do you say that?
Assuming you are asking about my "short end of the deal" remark: because EESTOR gave ZENN a perpetual exclusive worldwide license, for what appears to be a relatively small amount of money. Sure, there will likely be royalties per unit sold, but how many cars do you suppose ZENN can move, compared to how many cars a Ford, GM or Toyota could eventually move, once they get really serious about the electric car business? I just seems like a very bad business decision to give up exclusive rights to revolutionary technology in perpetuity to a small new player.

Dancing Dragon
04-27-2008, 01:00 AM
The only downside I can see:
* Operates at 3500 volts, so would likely require a change in electric motors and various other electronics.


The only thing that is needed to use 3500V is a proper switching power supply, then the same electronics could be used.

If the insulation in the motor is strong enough, it would be a lighter motor that would run cooler. Lost of amps make things hot and require bigger conductors.
However lots of volts has its own set of issues.

Dancing Dragon #1807

garygid
04-27-2008, 01:34 AM
Maybe EESTOR needed the money, and gave up rights
to something that does not (and will not ever) work?

Perhaps the exact configuration of battery they gave away
the rights to will never be produced, but some not-yet licensed
variation of the technology (that will work) is what will be produced?

Do we know exactly what was licensed?
All EESTOR products forever? Probably not.

But if so, EESTOR just closes, and EEESTOR opens.

futura
04-27-2008, 10:44 AM
Maybe EESTOR needed the money, and gave up rights
to something that does not (and will not ever) work?

As much as I'd love EESTOR's claims to be valid, their technology just doesn't pass the smell test so far. EESTOR is claiming "silver-bullet" technology, that can be used from pace-makers to energy weapons. They're cramming a lot of energy into a small space and expecting it to be safe, lightweight and not leak. They haven't shown a prototype that can do this yet.
Lockheed-Martin has an agreement to buy their supercapacitor tech for a variety of purposes, mostly man-pack stuff for the military. It's not exclusive, they're just covering their bases and they've never tested or seen a prototype. Silicon Valley venture capital fund, Kleiner-Perkins etal have been making big investments in all kinds of green-tech lately. They're very serious about it; check out John Doerr (from KP) emotional talk given at the TED conference in Monterey: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/128
KP has invested a paltry $3M in EESTOR. If they were about to produce anything as Earth-shattering as claimed, I'd expect an investment of $100-200M by now.

garygid
04-27-2008, 04:17 PM
Also, it is only at maximum capacity a 3500 volts
(and at 350 volts its capacity is no better than Lion?),
and only available in 57 kWh packs, yet it can be used
in pacemakers ... strange. Maybe one has to pull a
suitcase around with the "battery" in it. :eek:

Dilekz
04-28-2008, 09:05 PM
Damn if its 3500 volts..

You need a variable DC to variable AC converter ( wow.. is there such thing? )
ONE BIG QUESTION FOR MISTER UNBELIEVER:
how long can this supercapicitor holt it's charge?
I don't know ANY capacitor that could hold it's charge longer then 1 minute :)

garygid
04-28-2008, 10:58 PM
Many capacitors will hold their charge for extended periods
of time, unless the external circuit drains them on purpose,
which is often done for safety.

One of ESTOR's claims is that their "capacitor" will hold its
charge for a very LONG time.

tvillars
05-25-2008, 10:00 AM
Also, it is only at maximum capacity a 3500 volts (and at 350 volts its capacity is no better than Lion?), and only available in 57 kWh packs, yet it can be used in pacemakers ... strange. Maybe one has to pull a suitcase around with the "battery" in it. :eek:

The 57kWh EESU is just the packaging that will be sold to ZENN for their car and presumably conversion kits. If you want something lighter you'll obviously need to package it differently by using less barium titanate powder.

One of ESTOR's claims is that their "capacitor" will hold its
charge for a very LONG time.

ESSTOR is claiming a self-discharge rate of 0.1% per month. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestor#Technology)

KarenRei
05-25-2008, 02:18 PM
To everyone who's comparing them to conventional capacitors: don't. These are high-K capacitors that they're building, which is basically something brand new. The two things that they need to pull off exceedingly well for this to work out as described are A) microscale layering to prevent loss of permittivity with increasing voltage, and B) exceedingly low porosity.

n_dawg
05-25-2008, 06:36 PM
I don't know ANY capacitor that could hold it's charge longer then 1 minute :)

Do yourself a favor and don't ever try to repair a CRT.

Oh, and read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor