Newsletter Nov 19 2008 [Archive] - ApteraForum.com

Matthijs

11-21-2008, 10:35 PM

The other hot topic for this issue is our rear vision system. As many of you noted, we have consolidated the three body-mounted cameras, into a single "fin" style camera on the roof. While the initial setup couldn't effectively show the body as a point of reference, the new position and better camera technology provide the driver with an unimpeded view of the surroundings.

"By moving to a single camera and screen - in conjunction with more traditional side-view mirrors - drivers are now placed in the safest, most practical and familiar setup," said Tom Reichenbach, chief engineer of Aptera. "We worked hard to make these changes without compromising our core mission of minimizing drag. "Through our comprehensive aerodynamic studies we've been able to design mirrors that slip right through the air. And because the body-mounted cameras created air pockets that disrupted airflow over the vehicle, the change to the overall drag has been minimal."

Well those body mounted camera's could be fitted with some flush fitted glass like someone already suggested on the forum. Not really a reason to drop the system. Is it really impossible to to show the car body as a point of reference?

jhm614

11-21-2008, 10:52 PM

We are committed to putting 100,000 Apteras on the road by 2015, and to get there we have to make sure that everyone knows who we are and what we are all about.

That means there is hope for us non-Cali folks!

aptera1213

11-21-2008, 11:45 PM

http://aptera.com/newsletter111908/

direct link...the email i received was full of format errors, the webpage is much better

good to hear this:

Well, starting with this newsletter, and in all subsequent issues, we're going to do a little more than just hint. We'll bring you inside with continuous updates on how the vehicle is continuing to evolve in the name of efficiency, simplicity and safety.

maybe we will hear more on the drive train and such soon

aptera1213

11-21-2008, 11:49 PM

also this for the people worried about waiting a year for the first ones to arrive:

This is where we will complete the first 2e by the end of December, followed by thousands more during the next several years."

webwevers

11-22-2008, 10:16 AM

I thought everyone would be talking about the newsletter by now, I received mine yesterday about 7:00pm, I only received it from my last email sign-up, I have three address signed up to receive the newsletter, maybe thats it. Anyway it seems like the newsletter was not really full of new news, mostly what everyone has talked about on this site now for a couple of months, nothing really new, no real pictures, talk about the quarter windows, or other changes other than the cameras and outside mirrors. Hopefully they will be releasing more updates soon, not waiting for another 2 months (last newsletter was in Sept.) before they send out another one. Most of the newsletter was just kinda of fluff as far as I saw it.

KarenRei

11-22-2008, 10:24 AM

They just confirmed to you the side mirrors and ended the speculation about the fin, as well as elaborated on the production schedule, and that's "all fluff"? Oy, what would you consider non-fluff?

webwevers

11-22-2008, 10:24 AM

n_dawg

11-22-2008, 10:39 AM

Well, time to start pulling this apart.

http://www.aptera.com/newsletter111908/i/MirrorsAdded1.jpg
Clearly a rendering, since the old seats are still there. Conveniently cutting off the suspension arms–*sigh*–but clearly showing the circular opening in the skirt ala the website concepts (with FWD) seen earlier. The name, MirrorsAdded1.jpg, both reinforces the idea that it's a rendering and reveals a previously hazy detail – there will be both driver and passenger-side mirrors on the production Aptera-2e, in excess of California requirements.

While the initial setup couldn't effectively show the body as a point of reference, the new position and better camera technology provide the driver with an unimpeded view of the surroundings.
Haha! It's just as I suspected – stitching together multiple PoVs into a cohesive picture just isn't intuitive enough. Interesting note about "seeing the car" in the field-of-view. I can see how that would encourage you to develop a 'proprioception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception)' about the Aptera-2e.

"By moving to a single camera and screen - in conjunction with more traditional side-view mirrors - drivers are now placed in the safest, most practical and familiar setup," said Tom Reichenbach, chief engineer of Aptera. "We worked hard to make these changes without compromising our core mission of minimizing drag. "Through our comprehensive aerodynamic studies we've been able to design mirrors that slip right through the air. And because the body-mounted cameras created air pockets that disrupted airflow over the vehicle, the change to the overall drag has been minimal."
Sounds like they're consolidating the dash-board screens into a single screen. Unsurprising really, given the cost savings. I hope they at least go with a widescreen display. (LED backlight, anyone? :))

Also it sounds like the side-view mirrors do have an aerodynamic penalty. Thus, it still might be worth it to delete them and replace them with interior mirrors for extreme ecodriving.

EDIT: Their webmaster leaves me less than impressed.

<td height="5"><img scr="http://www.aptera.com/emailBlast032508/http://www.aptera.com/newsletter092508/i/spacer.gif" height="5" width="1" /></td>
EDIT EDIT: I'd also like to point out that this newsletter is dated November 19, 2008, not November 21 as the post title implies. (Edited thx :-))

Matthijs

11-22-2008, 10:45 AM

From the newsletter, "We need to practice a strategy of patience." patience of what? After reading the artical they seem focused on the auto industry as a model that works and should be held up as clearly the way to go. Looking at the mess that the current auto industry is in I don't think they should be looked at as a positive force. We need new ideas and ways to make cars affordable and profitable, along with better quality control.

Well said, and this from a guy who is only 32 year old. I had suspected that the marketing idea's for the Aptera would be just as revolutionary and fresh as their products. But he still reflects their strategy to the status quo auto industry. :(

aptera1213

11-22-2008, 10:59 AM

thank n dawg for braking it down...i do wish the image had been a foot lower

n_dawg

11-22-2008, 11:10 AM

thank n dawg for braking it down...i do wish the image had been a foot lower

I see what you did there…

My pleasure. :)

pk-sd

11-22-2008, 11:14 AM

Aptera Focuses On Final Enhancements
In a new story released by the fuel-efficient car maker Aptera the California based company says it is looking into the mirror and making the final enhancements before the Aptera production.

In the last newsletter we hinted at some vehicle refinements. Well, starting with this newsletter, and in all subsequent issues, we're going to do a little more than just hint. We'll bring you inside with continuous updates on how the vehicle is continuing to evolve in the name of efficiency, simplicity and safety. But first we want to give you a heads-up on the naming convention that we are going to take to production.

As you know, up to this point we have referred to our vehicle as the Aptera Typ-1 - a name that has become very near and dear to all of us. However, as we move ever closer to production, we are giving more and more thought to brand development and what it takes to make 'Aptera' a household name. We are committed to putting 100,000 Apteras on the road by 2015, and to get there we have to make sure that everyone knows who we are and what we are all about.

The challenge is that, with the name Aptera Typ-1, we have two names vying for attention: 'Aptera' and 'Typ-1.' With that in mind, we have decided to simplify the name and call the vehicle the Aptera-2e, where the 2 designates the number of passengers and the e denotes the electric powertrain. Our sentiment is that with this convention, the vehicle name will rarely be spoken apart from the brand.

The other hot topic for this issue is our rear vision system. As many of you noted, we have consolidated the three body-mounted cameras, into a single "fin" style camera on the roof. While the initial setup couldn't effectively show the body as a point of reference, the new position and better camera technology provide the driver with an unimpeded view of the surroundings.

"By moving to a single camera and screen - in conjunction with more traditional side-view mirrors - drivers are now placed in the safest, most practical and familiar setup," said Tom Reichenbach, chief engineer of Aptera. "We worked hard to make these changes without compromising our core mission of minimizing drag. "Through our comprehensive aerodynamic studies we've been able to design mirrors that slip right through the air. And because the body-mounted cameras created air pockets that disrupted airflow over the vehicle, the change to the overall drag has been minimal."

n_dawg

11-22-2008, 11:27 AM

So, from a more aesthetic perspective…

The pictures of the principles are absolutely dreadful. Everyone looks like a ghost, especially Steve (not an impression they need to foster at this time).

I personally didn't like Steve's segment. It sounded as though he's been relegated to the role of the grumpy eccentric who raves about philosophy. Certain turns of phrase (speaking of "Aptera" as if it were a person, the excesses of exclamation points, the crickets thing, -- instead of –, asterisks for emphasis) seem to me unprofessional in an official release like this.

Mind you, I do these things *all the time* on the forums and online, but that's in a different context. ;)

What worried me is not that Steve comes off as a grumpy eccentric who raves about philosophy – things are so bad in automotive design that we need that kind of people. What worries me is that profit-driven enterprises are notoriously unaccommodating to that sort of individual.

Then again, I may just be taking a too-critical eye to something intended as an enlightening story about the impetus for the 2e. After all, I've heard a lot of what Steve has to say on the subject. Perhaps familiarity has bred contempt. In any case, I hope I'm wrong about Steve being "on the way out" – Steve's vision and foresight are going to be sorely needed in the coming years at Aptera.

DonC

11-22-2008, 12:34 PM

In any case, I hope I'm wrong about Steve being "on the way out" – Steve's vision and foresight are going to be sorely needed in the coming years at Aptera.
Do you have an example of a founder who stayed? Some leave more gracefully than others but they all leave. How you view the friction which invariably occurs between founders and the CEO depends on your perspective. Hopefully Apter can avoid the Tesla situation. That was truly awful.

bernardo7092

11-22-2008, 01:24 PM

Apteratude

11-22-2008, 02:11 PM

I would simply like facts related to production schedules, or barriers to production; and any cost changes, or maybe how $49 a barrel oil is affecting their strategy/cancellation rate, or reservations. Maybe even a word about financing possibilities would be appropriate considering the credit environment. I thought I'd be paying cash, but some investments have gone slightly south, combined with an unplanned work outage for 2 months due to a remodel at my work. These things combined with the uncertainty of the times have left me willing to finance, and hold onto my cash assuming reasonable finance rates are attainable. And by reasonable, I mean 6.9% or less comsidering my wife and I's credit scores in the 800's.

But, I wouldn't expect to get any downbeat up to date info from Aptera directly in these newsletters. They're all fluff.

acterp

11-22-2008, 02:42 PM

...still haven't gotten the new newsletter....

Matthijs

11-22-2008, 02:50 PM

...still haven't gotten the new newsletter....

ForumLink (http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=20515&postcount=8) :p

speculawyer

11-22-2008, 09:22 PM

Sounds like they're consolidating the dash-board screens into a single screen. Unsurprising really, given the cost savings. I hope they at least go with a widescreen display. (LED backlight, anyone? :)
Yeah, I wonder if it will use a fisheye lens to get a wide field of view or just a normal narrow view such that you really need to use the side mirrors. I hope for the fisheye thing since I hate side mirrors.

speculawyer

11-22-2008, 09:23 PM

...still haven't gotten the new newsletter....
It's right here:
http://aptera.com/newsletter111908/

Camerapilot

11-22-2008, 09:36 PM

I still haven't gotten the email either...

javan

11-22-2008, 09:58 PM

I wonder if they did not release the newsletter to all of us on their list since I didn't get one either. If it happens again, I'll probably try to contact them.

Carbon Saver II

11-22-2008, 11:59 PM

I got it at 2:17 this afternoon as an e-mail. Seems like they are moving slower....

garygid

11-23-2008, 12:35 AM

Tech Show ... says they talked, not that they showed a vehicle, right?

bernardo7092

11-23-2008, 12:54 AM

Even if they a only talked about the Aptera, it would have been great to be there.
I think it was totally inconsiderate to not email all who are signed up have a chance to attend. We are the ground breakers that will be their biggest advertisements.

Why all this secrecy????

javan

11-23-2008, 02:51 AM

Just got the newsletter (complete with format problems). In about a month we should hear more about the first production car(s) I hope!

bernardo7092

11-23-2008, 11:13 AM

:jumping0007: Dream On!!!

G-Jet

11-23-2008, 01:01 PM

The Tech show was invite only. I found a google article on it and they did show the car.

So, it was not a public event.

G

bigalwedworth

11-23-2008, 01:03 PM

My copy of the news letter just showed up this morning... Funy thing. We just watched "Who killed the electric car" last night! Wow, what a great movie.
Now, all I can think of is how GM, Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, Chevron and Shell Oil are going to Kill this project!
All the technology for the electric car is out there now, there is no reason to wait till 2010-2015 for the batteries ( A123, Li/po, Nickle/Metal hydride, Nickel/Iron) Controlers it's all there. But somehow it's not getting out, there is no market.. ya right.
Aptera keeps changing the design, removing things... adding mirrors, windows, changing the suspension, interior and such .. seams like the Aptera CEO's are going to design the Aptera out of the market. Suck all the money from the Apters Coffers. We.. Folks who put down money and are waiting, waiting and waiting for a Oil Free Car.
Some of the Big Wigs from GM got jobs at Aptera and are geting big saleries, So I feel if this exelent gas free car is going to make it. I think the top people should forgo there high life style's and suck it up... So I CAN GET OUR APTERA'S ON THE ROAD AND IN OUR DRIVEWAYS NOW!
Thanks.
I feel better now.
Al

G-Jet

11-23-2008, 01:05 PM

"Some of the Big Wigs from GM got jobs at Aptera"??? really? where is that published?

G

bigalwedworth

11-23-2008, 01:38 PM

Here is the info you Requesed Mr. G-Jet
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/04/aptera-hires-paul-wilbur-as-new-president-and-ceo-looking-to-bu/
Looks like there from Ford, Chrysler and BMW
Just a matter of time befor the money runs out...

G-Jet

11-23-2008, 03:33 PM

yup. no GM people like I thought.

G

jstdadd

11-24-2008, 12:30 PM

:character0029: :jumping0007: I would like to know WHY they did not inform us that they were showing the Aptera at
L.A. Tech Week Fair....All of us that live in the area would have deposits on the vehicle and are waiting to get some information would have enjoyed attending.

I would like some input on this from the Forum.

I have been successful just sending a polite note to family@aptera.com. Aptera responded almost immediately. Remember, a complaint with a suggested improvement is usually more useful and more likely to be taken favorably than a 'naked complaint'.

FWIW.

ciege

11-24-2008, 12:33 PM

I find it hard to believe that we finally get an updated Aptera Newsletter and I have yet to see a comment on it.

Although there were no 'surprises' or anything unexpected. I did find the number of expected production units by 2015 to be high. In fact I found it encouraging and shows a lot of ambition.

As for all the talk of 'front wheel drive' on the 2e, I would have thought that if it were indeed a possibility it may have been mentioned. Although all along I find it out of the question at this point. I think t would have been done originally if it were to be done at all. The rear drive as designed is ultimately simple, clean, do-able, and cost effective.

ciege

11-24-2008, 12:36 PM

I did't see anywhere that Aptera showed anything at the L.A. Tech Fair........did I miss something? All I read was the Xprize registrant list was revealed and that Aptera was one of them

maestronius

11-24-2008, 06:11 PM

"The other hot topic for this issue is our rear vision system. As many of you noted, we have consolidated the three body-mounted cameras, into a single "fin" style camera on the roof."

Apteraforum is the only place I saw this discussed before. Big brother is watching.:)

I am also disappointed we didn't get the heads up about the up close and personal at LA Tech Fair. They said in the newsletter that it was a "public viewing". They did give some vague notice about something in New York, a place where Aptera has 0 customers so far. The other viewings have been semi private affairs where most of the attendants have never heard of the Aptera. Seems like they don't want any of us "more informed enthusiasts" seeing the car in person and blabbing our observations all over this forum.

Also, their naming convention "2e" states that it carries 2 passengers by electric power. Have they removed the optional child seat in the back? Should it be called the "2.5e"?

esmith

11-24-2008, 06:51 PM

Also, their naming convention "2e" states that it carries 2 passengers by electric power. Have they removed the optional child seat in the back? Should it be called the "2.5e"?

Could be perceived as insulting by some.

BTW it's November 24 and I still haven't gotten my newsletter.

garygid

11-25-2008, 12:49 AM

Would only be 2.1e or 2.2e, I suspect.

Skeat

11-25-2008, 12:21 PM

I have a feeling that the camera on top of the car would look something like this. Not so much a fish eye as someone said earlier.

edmontonsun.com/SpecialSections/Autonet/2008/05/16/5588981.html

I'm kinda sad about the change. I was a huge fan for the three screens and all and I feel that mirrors are just so unnatural.

"So, the next time you look at a shark, hawk, fighter plane or the Aptera, take note--it is their smooth shape that lets them slip through the air using the least amount of energy possible." ~ Steve

I don't see a hawk or a fighter plane with mirrors jetting out the sides. :rolleyes:

If cutting down to one monitor in the dash brings down the price that would be good for us but will we see the price for us drop as well? Just thinking out loud.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rat

11-25-2008, 12:56 PM

... there will be both driver and passenger-side mirrors on the production Aptera-2e, in excess of California requirements.

No, I think they had to. Here's the relevant DMV section:

26709. (a) Every motor vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction
and every motorcycle subject to registration in this state shall be
equipped with a mirror so located as to reflect to the driver a view
of the highway for a distance of at least 200 feet to the rear of
such vehicle.
Every motor vehicle subject to registration in this state, except
a motorcycle, shall be equipped with not less than two such mirrors,
including one affixed to the left-hand side.
(b) The following described types of motor vehicles, of a type
subject to registration, shall be equipped with mirrors on both the
left- and right-hand sides of the vehicle so located as to reflect to
the driver a view of the highway through each mirror for a distance
of at least 200 feet to the rear of such vehicle:
(1) A motor vehicle so constructed or loaded as to obstruct the
driver's view to the rear. ... [snip]

One can argue otherwise, but I think the wisest heads decided (or were told by CHP or DMV) that the construction of the Aptera fits (b)(1), since there is no window in the middle back and those little triangular windows don't allow a driver to see 200 feet to the rear. Unlike a regular motorcycle, the driver can't just turn his head to the right and see who is behind and slightly to the right - the right hand blind spot. The left-hand mirror can't do that either. The rear camera may not qualify as removing the obstruction for several reasons, including the fact that it is electronic and therefore subject to failure, it might have to have a severely "fish-eye" lens to cover that spot, which might be too unappealing to the marketers or just not available for the camera they want, or it may only be operable when in reverse (not sure about that). So I feel pretty sure they decided they couldn't make it street legal without that right-hand mirror. The only other choice that I can see is to remove or reduce the solar panels for the A/C and put a large rear window there, which, of course, is a big negative in its own right, and an interior mirror like most cars, so they went with the side mirror. The lack of mirrors was such a hyped marketing point that I feel sure that they felt legally compelled to change it.

webwevers

11-25-2008, 01:19 PM

"since there is no window in the middle back" I thought it had a small window in the back? At least the Type 1e showed one. Have they remove that?

aptera1213

11-25-2008, 01:33 PM

mmm, the aptera is a motorcycle right? so one mirror should be enough...

but, honestly, we all know the aptera is a car, and they likely want people to see the curb as they park

Skeat

11-25-2008, 01:47 PM

Rat is wise and Aptera 1213 Good call on the parking. :) :)

n_dawg

11-25-2008, 01:54 PM

Yeah, and like I've said before – if it really bothers you you could remove them.

Rat

11-25-2008, 01:56 PM

"since there is no window in the middle back" I thought it had a small window in the back? At least the Type 1e showed one. Have they remove that?
I didn't mean to suggest there have been any changes. I've never sat in one, but from the pictures it is hard to tell what part of that is solar panel and what part, if any, is window, but it is more on the top than the back, and I don't think it could allow a driver to see the roadway 200 feet to the rear, which is the requirement to avoid the right hand mirror. They would never have proposed the original camera system, which is expensive and drains power, if an ordinary rear-view mirror would do the job. The cameras (now camera) were proposed precisely because the driver needed to be able to see to the rear and couldn't. I think we are talking about a (b)(1) situation whether or not that panel is a window of sorts. As an aside, I don't see why they would put a window there where the solar panels are, since that just lets in sun/heat which would require more juice to pump out.

mycomya

11-25-2008, 03:02 PM

For weeks, everyone complains about there not being a newsletter... "Anything, just anything! The silence is deafening!!!" So we get a newsletter that confirms a bunch of things that previously were only speculation (Dorsal fin video system, production schedule, etc.). And what fills this forum? Only more complaints!

Geez... !

If you're listening, Aptera: Many thanks for the newsletter.

To me, things are looking pretty good... I can't wait to see more of the production vehicle, as it rolls off the factory line... Its going to be awesome and it can't come soon enough. :love0014:

n_dawg

11-25-2008, 03:34 PM

speculawyer

11-26-2008, 01:23 PM

I have a feeling that the camera on top of the car would look something like this. Not so much a fish eye as someone said earlier.

http://www.edmontonsun.com/SpecialSections/Autonet/2008/05/16/5588981.html
It would definitely not be like that since that article talks about a 4 camera system . . . the Aptera is going from 3 cameras to 1. That article basically brags about how the 4 camera system is so much better than a single camera system. :-/

Luckily for me, Nissan, in its “infinite” wisdom, has installed not one, not two, but four backup cameras in the Infiniti EX35.

The system, called the “around view,” uses four cameras to catch all the action as you back up. There’s one in the front grille, one in each side mirror, and one on the rear hatch. Their images are placed on the console screen around a rendition of the vehicle – when you back up, you can see all around you from a “bird’s eye” perspective.

This system is a major leap forward in helping you – and me – back up. The main issue I have with the single backup camera (which is becoming commonplace now) is that it is impossible to see just how close you are to something that is out of range of the camera ... except if you look in those pesky mirrors. That’s so “yesterday.”

If cutting down to one monitor in the dash brings down the price that would be good for us but will we see the price for us drop as well? Just thinking out loud.
I imagine they are struggling to meet their publicly stated expected price points. And they really need to do it to make the Aptera a success.

TheAeronut

11-26-2008, 02:09 PM

I am sure that cost is part of the consideration for going from three to one rear veiw camera. Personally, I liked the three screen ultra wide field view system. I am curious to see just how and how well the single camera system works. Still three screens? Probably not, but then a wide angle view would become rather compressed. Probably much less than the 180 view of the original system too. Hopefully we will have more info on this and other changes / new features soon.

J.P.

OC-LA driver

11-26-2008, 02:47 PM

There was a comment earlier voicing disappointment that the newsletter did not show the front struts. This link to X Prize site has three renditions of apparently latest design. Has two mirrors, two split windows, one camera, lower stance, longer rear wheel skirt, yes a rear window...and the strut configuration which some interpret as enabling front wheel drive.

Guess we'll have to wait for another newsletter (or two) to get that one answered

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams/aptera

webwevers

11-26-2008, 06:21 PM

Thanks for the link OC-LA driver.
Nice pictures. So now we are looking at November of 09 for deliverys?
"Today, Aptera is within 12 months of releasing its first production vehicle, the all electric 2e." and 100 miles per charge instead of 120 miles. The article also states
"The 2e, named for its two passenger configuration and electric powertain, is designed to provide safe, reliable transportation for the average consumer who tends to travel approximately 40 miles per day in their daily commute." Not sure of what to make of that, is it 100 miles or 40 miles. I sure wish they would give us some real information and not let us try and find out what is out their.