Aptera Disappoints BIG TIME

[optera]

IMO, Aptera has completely taken themselves out of the EV game. They're going to blast through 24mm before mass production; they're going to dilute shareholders hence upset their core investors; they're going to get out marketed by larger players as they begin to add windows to their updated model(yeah right); they're going to sell a 1/4 of the 3700 in backlog as customers will wait and get better deals on real vehicles with large tax credits by the government(aptera considered a motorcycle).

Fambro and his new handpicked CEO Wilbur have done a horrible job getting this to market. The economy is sick, you just raised money in the nick of time and you decide to do a survey after 3700 people put down payments on your fully design product - what is really wrong with the Aptera?? Fambro is hiding something here. You put the product in the hands of the consumer. Add the window on the next model.

[optera]

The management totally blew this opportunity. They had a chance to bring a car to market in the face of the big three going under - they could have gained all the fanfare and accolades from the media and investors even if the car didnt have windows.

them cancelling is very strange and weird.

[KarenRei]

Yawn.

Didn't realize that people who just joined and only have three posts could start threads.

Wonder if the Volt's forum lets people troll this way?

[iwannaptera]

The management totally blew this opportunity. They had a chance to bring a car to market in the face of the big three going under - they could have gained all the fanfare and accolades from the media and investors even if the car didnt have windows.

them cancelling is very strange and weird.


???

Them cancelling what?

[optera]

you serious?? get a life - by sound of it you must be management

[evmavin]

Karen,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their number of posts. To judge the opinion of a new member because of a difference of opinion and insinuate they are a troll is unfair and not objective. If a moderator is going to pass judgement and categorize a new member based on an opinion that seems like approaching borderline censorship. Perhaps I was misguided when I joined here, I did not know it was called "We only agree with Aptera" or "never disagree with Aptera" forum. Am I wrong, or should a moderator not be objective or neutral. Antagonizing a disgruntled individual does not win their Aptera vote.

This reminds me of the last eight years of politics.

[KarenRei]

Did I ban them? Delete the post? Close the the thread? Even threaten to?

No, I'm just getting sick of people who've spent no time here coming in and using it as a gripeing zone, and letting my views be known.

I'll head back to my Angry Dome now...

[G.M.]

I will agree on one point.

And disagree on the same point (go figure).

It was weird to make so many changes so late. They could have, maybe even should have, released the first Aptera basically as is, then made changes (windows, FWD, etc) to the second model (a year or two later. Typ1- 2009, 2e- 2011).

And nobody would have been the wiser.

At the same time I'm glad they looked at the Typ-1 and said, hey lets get this right, and made big changes.

G.M.

And, personally, I'd love for the word Troll to be stricken from all boards. It's the big stick that immediately lets you disregarded everything a person says.

Sometimes it might fit, but it just stifles all conversation. It is the "easy" way out. Again, not saying it doesn't work here or other times, just too big and too easy to use.

[evmavin]

Where did I say you banned them or closed the thread? No. Why don't you say you are sick of people who are potentially disappointed and don't share your view or enthusiasm? Let's be real then, add to the forum rules that there are no negative comments about Aptera or bitching or you will be reprimanded by a Moderator. Sounds open mined. Note, I put down my Aptera "factory" LED lit pom poms for that one, at least for now:)

[evmavin]

P.S., A deeper thought, Karen. Do your comments not make you an "Aptera" Troll?

Think about it.

[KarenRei]

What do I need to do to be able to express my opinion -- renounce my mod status? I became a mod to get rid of forum spam, which I do almost daily. Does doing this service for the forum prevent me from expressing my views? Or are only people who are angry with Aptera because they have no understanding of the auto industry, have unrealistic expectations, and just joined get to express their views?

[evmavin]

Oh- nothing personal, just being objective. I don't necessarily agree with his opinion.

[evho]

Lose the :) and speak your mind.

Thank you!

[evho]

Buy the parrot a peanut and move on...if you can with that weight differential. :)

[KarenRei]

Back I go, then.

http://angrydome.net/angry_dome.jpg

[evmavin]

Implying a person is a Troll for their opinion is passing judgement. I think that makes you seem biased as a moderator, that is an opinion. Would you like to join a forum and be treated that way by a moderator? Just consider that for a moment. "Just joined to express their views" ???? I guess you did not joint just to express your views but only express pure objective facts, LOL!

[evmavin]

There will be a poll to impeach you of your moderator status, please do not be tempted to delete it or lock yourself in the anger dome. By the way, do all these opinion posts earn me points to moderator status? Where can I get a anger dome?

[KarenRei]

I think that makes you seem biased as a moderator, that is an opinion. Would you like to join a forum and be treated that way by a moderator?

I don't have a habit of joining forums to simply create posts to try to start a fight. If I did, I should expect such treatment. Want to do an experiment? Join FreeRepublic.com and make your first couple posts angrily insulting Ronald Reagan, spending two paragraphs talking about how he ruined the country -- see how long you last. Better yet, start a thread specifically for the purpose of insulting Reagan.

FYI, trolling is not about expressing opinions. It's about doing something explicitly to start a fight. That's how I interpreted such a post from a person who just joined; why else did they come here, register an account, and post that if that wasn't their intent?

[evho]

You all are ridiculous. Just produce the car. sell it. make it widely available and we can all be done with this 'forum'. (Clearly no one on this site knows classic language as this is not really a "forum".)

[evmavin]

All of the Aptera customers should have a "rumble" in the Aptera parking lot for test vehicles:) No it is not really a forum, and Karen I am a senior member on the "Ronal Reagan The Legend" forum. I also helped him remove the solar panels from the White House, I've been made:)

[KarenRei]

Oh, and speaking of the Volt's forum:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Agm-volt.com+troll&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

[MegaAutoBit]

Evmavin, I’m with you. We are not all mindless Aptera cheerleaders around here, although they do tend to talk the most and have the loudest voices.

Karen, you are a moderator, and we all appreciate your knowledge and support. However, as a moderator you should be setting the example. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t give you the right to call him a name. If you don’t like what he is saying defend your point if you wish with facts or ignore him. Name calling shouldn’t be acceptable, especially from a moderator!

[KarenRei]

All of the Aptera customers should have a "rumble" in the Aptera parking lot for test vehicles:) No it is not really a forum, and Karen I am a senior member on the "Ronal Reagan The Legend" forum. I also helped him remove the solar panels from the White House, I've been made:)

I held the ladder while James Baker carried them down. We all did our part. :)

[KarenRei]

Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t give you the right to call him a name. If you don’t like what he is saying defend your point if you wish with facts or ignore him. Name calling shouldn’t be acceptable, especially from a moderator!

I think I've gathered that people don't like the word 'trolling'. Got it; I won't use it again. What word would best describe, in your view, registering an account at a forum to try and start a fight there?

If you have a better word, I'm all ears.

I understand you want everyone to be accomodating. But why should we be accomodating to people who come here to start fights? Or is your view that having people come and register accounts to just complain enriches the forum? Honestly, I'd like to know; this isn't rhetorical. If people think that's good for the forum, then so be it; I won't get in the way of such people. Just seems a strange thing to want.

[optera]

Getting the car right is one thing.

You spend two yrs designing a car and at the last hour you decide the car needs windows? LOL! Who doesnt understand car companies?? BTW, its not a car

I want the Aptera and love it, but management has dropped the ball. The opportunity cost is real and that is why they're asking for locked up deposits bcuz they know their lead has vanished

[evmavin]

Agreed Mega,

That's like "cali" for "MagaAutoBit":)

I would bet that many people have looked at this forum and are deposit holders and perhaps did not want to join. Now that more info has come out regarding delivery delays, etc, they may want to express a view for better or worse. Just because it is not a good one does not make it wrong, I encourage everyone to speak their mind as long as they do it without insult or judgement.

I just wish we could have some "real" EV discussion here again. Lastly, I was on one list where one guy was always called a troll, I learned more from him than most of the complainers on the list. He was very insulting and would have been banned here in a day tops.

[evmavin]

I think I've gathered that people don't like the word 'trolling'. Got it; I won't use it again. What word would best describe, in your view, registering an account at a forum to try and start a fight there?

If you have a better word, I'm all ears.

I understand you want everyone to be accomodating. But why should we be accomodating to people who come here to start fights? Or is your view that having people come and register accounts to just complain enriches the forum? Honestly, I'd like to know; this isn't rhetorical. If people think that's good for the forum, then so be it; I won't get in the way of such people. Just seems a strange thing to want.


who said their intention was to start a fight? I would not want everyone to agree with me here, all opinions raise critical thinking. This persons post did, and it is not necessarily negative. I think every opinion is valuable to have and censoring or making them unwelcome is not objective. This person may only wish to antagonize but perhaps not.

[Telchar]

I gotta say I'm with Karen on this one. The OP should have been modded "flamebait", as the post clearly was just that. You want to make a constructive post that's less-than-optimistic, that's fine, but posting a rant spelling doom and gloom and and generally bitching about the company should be about as welcome as a drunk, angry parent yelling at a little league game. I'm not complaining about complaining, but this really did read like a troll, which by the way, is a very valid term for some posts/posters on forums.

[G.M.]

I think we all could just take a step back and relax.

Over time new people will find this site. Some will be productive. Some won't.

Some will stay forever. Some will stay a day or two.

And God knows we won't all get along.

Me? I'm working on not replying to posts that tick me off. I'm not great at it yet, but I'll keep working on it.

Most of us are early adopters. We tend to have strong opinions.

Not sure where I'm going with this other than to say, Hi, hope you have a nice evening.

G.M.

edit. I agree that troll is possibly a valid description, at one time. Today it is use so much and it's sole purpose is to instantly disregard everything about the poster and his/her comments. Which is why I dislike it. It is the easy way out.

Now the first poster here was possibly out of line a bit (or a lot), and posted his/her thoughts aggressively. But there were some points being made. I don't agree and I thought it was posted badly, but heck there are aggressive people here who post all the time that I often don't agree with.

Now Aptera has just made some big changes and some people are happy, some upset. But basically a lot of emotions are fried right now and it makes the site more volatile. So be it.

I hope to ignore posts more that upset me and move on. It is my new years resolution. That I'm failing so far, but I have hope.

[KarenRei]

If people think it's worth trying to discuss with said people, then so be it; let's give it a try.

You spend two yrs designing a car and at the last hour you decide the car needs windows? LOL!

That was a joke in the newsletter. It was even a pun (fetching a burger would make the car more 'palatable' -- ha.) In reality, Steve mentioned nearly a year ago that it was going to have roll-down windows; they just hadn't decided what kind. You can see tape on the window outlining the split that they ended up using on Neil Hanneman's official photo back in April.

Or are you talking about the quarter windows? Again, you're finding out about these things long after Aptera is implementing them. Example: according to Steve, they switched to FWD in January. Not this January: *last* January. It's just been a secret while they've been working on it.

A concept car is not a production car. It may look neat, and you may say, "I'll take that one", but it doesn't work that way. They're generally highly unreliable, unrefined, and simply not mass produceable. You have to establish reliable supply chains and make sure all components end up being affordable and working reliably together. And sometimes these things take longer than expected.

Yes, I know some people saw this as an 8 month delay. I think (Warning: Personal Opinion Approaching!) that those people are horribly unrealistic. What sort of person would see a startup like this and expect them to have gone into mass production right as they made their first production model? I've been pointing out on this forum for a year that I didn't expect any degree of mass production until around this summer. Now it's going to be this fall. In my book, that's a three month delay. Some may disagree with me; fine. But I'm still going to see those who expected mass production in December or January as having been way too optimistic and only having disappointed themselves.

Their lead has not "vanished". They're still way, way ahead of most of the competition. Let me go down the list -- and note that all of these companies may well encounter *their* own delays; that's not uncommon. Audi UP EV: "Before 2011". BMW Isetta: 2012-ish. Mini-E: leases start in '09, but not sales, and they're really expensive. BYD's models: out now, but won't be available in the US for years. Volt: End of 2010. Chrysler: 2010 (if they survive... ha), and another in 2012. Smart ForTwo ED: 2010. Fisker Karma: End of '09 if you have nearly $100k lying around. Ford: 2011-ish (or is it 2012 now?). Hyundai Getz: A handful in New Zealand now, but no US plans. Eliica -- any day if you have $255k lying around. Lightning Car -- late 2009 if you have $220k. Loremo: Who knows. Mazda's PHEV: Who knows. Mercedes' PHEV: 2010. Miles: Late '09. Mitsubishi: later this year, but no US date announced, and probably no sooner than 2011. Phoenix: Who knows. Pininfarina/Bollore B0, late '09, but not in the US. Nissan-Renault: 2011 and beyond. Range Rover: 2009 if you have ~$200k lying around. Saturn Vue GreenLine PHEV, was going to be in '09, but it's got pushed way back. Ultimate Aero EV, Q4 of '09 if you have a fortune to spend and if you can believe them. Subaru R1e, 2010. Tata Indica, who knows. Tesla Model S -- we can hope for 2011. Roadster, now if you have $110k. Th!nk City... not sure when their US launch is, and we can only hope they survive. Who knows about the Ox. Toyota, who knows for the very limited PHEV Prius, and 2012 for their BEV. Venturi Fetish, supposedly '09 if you have half a million lying around, and the Volage in 2012. Volkswagen Twin-Drive Golf PHEV, 2011.

In short, the only thing competing with them in their price range that will be in the US is the Miles XS500, which is significantly more expensive, despite being made in China with questionable quality. And that's assuming that they don't delay (judging by Miles's track record, I wouldn't hold my breath). Also, the Th!nk City may be here late this year. Or not. Again, while I'm hopeful for them, I wouldn't hold my breath. And while evmaven will strongly defend their brand, which I can understand, its stats are poor and its price high when you include the battery pack in comparison to the Aptera.

But if you want to see Aptera as way behind, that's your call.

[G.M.]

Nice. Lots of info. Thanks. Was good to see all the models and cars being worked on. Yeah for the future and more EVs.

Ford is still saying 2011. It could be a nice, family car.

I like the i MiEV. I really like the Ox, but don't think we will see it.


As for the Aptera:

The FWD has been worked on for some time. The quarter panel windows seem much newer. They aren't on any of the working models we've seen so far (not till tomorrow). We've seen the FWD much earlier. Heck we saw them in April and didn't even know it at the time.


G.M.

[KarenRei]

Nice. Lots of info. Thanks. Was good to see all the models and cars being worked on. Yeah for the future and more EVs.

Yeah, there should be tons of models available by 2012. In 2009 and most of 2010, not too much. Still, very encouraging for the future, isn't it? If only the world can get this economy fixed...

[G.M.]

True. Hard to make those big ticket purchases right now. And maybe especially with cars.

It is a real double edged sword.

We need to make big changes to cars. But making big changes means we aren't sure who will be the winners, the losers. Who will make the right changes, the wrong changes. Which technology will win out, which method will the masses support.

So most sit back and let the early adopters take the risks. Let them work out the kinks.

But sitting back puts little money into the system. With little money, the companies don't want to take many risks.

And now with the economy in the crapper, both consumers and companies have little capital to waste.

Painful.

I don't envy Obama. He has an insanely hard road ahead.

One up side is I think he is both very smart and very hard working. We need both right now.

G.M.

[G.M.]

Speaking of cars for the future.

I think Ford would be wise to make the Fiesta an EV. Good size for it and a nice design.

I think Honda should make a Fit EV. Good size for it and well done interior room for a car its size.

The whole idea of making a "special" car to show it is an EV is wrong I think.

Yes the Prius kicked butt. And Honda saw that that thought, "People want to look special."

Well, yes, maybe some wanted that. But I think the masses just want a good freaking car.

Not every EV will need to look like an egg. In fact, if we want EVs to be mainstream, well they will have to have lots of shapes and sizes.

Should they strive to me aerodynamic. Hell yes. Why we make cars shaped like bricks is beyond me. But the Fiesta shape will work ok. The Fit shape will be ok.

Is the Aptera the optimal shape? It surely is for now (we may find even better shapes in the future), but not every car has to be optimal. Some can just be good.

G.M.

2012 will be a fun year I think. Heck, I can't wait till me can run cars with small, microscopic black holes held in place with anti-gravity fields. But we will probably still be arguing style and shape and form vs function. :)

[mmalc]

I gotta say I'm with Karen on this one. The OP should have been modded "flamebait", as the post clearly was just that. You want to make a constructive post that's less-than-optimistic, that's fine, but posting a rant spelling doom and gloom and and generally bitching about the company should be about as welcome as a drunk, angry parent yelling at a little league game. I'm not complaining about complaining, but this really did read like a troll, which by the way, is a very valid term for some posts/posters on forums.
Ditto.

The tenor of the original was hardly sociable, and part of the role of a moderator is to encourage societal norms.

[Ardie3301]

Getting the car right is one thing.

You spend two yrs designing a car and at the last hour you decide the car needs windows? LOL! Who doesnt understand car companies?? BTW, its not a car

I want the Aptera and love it, but management has dropped the ball. The opportunity cost is real and that is why they're asking for locked up deposits bcuz they know their lead has vanished

Optera,

All I can do at this point is speculate that, at an hour very late in the game, somebody realized that the Typ-1, as intelligently designed and executed as it was, would appeal to too small a niche to make the vehicle popular (or maybe even profitable).

So Aptera put out an emergency poll to find out what they could do to make it appeal to a broader customer base. After all, by making it a 3-wheeler they are cutting themselves out from a considerable number of buyers. They gotta do what they gotta do to make it a viable product.

So, yes, they added a tiny window (much like the DeLorean or some of the Lamborghinis), and yes, they added cup holders, and yes, they may have gotten rid of the GPS as standard equipment in their bid to reduce costs. Who knows for sure? There may be a law in some state requiring side view mirrors, so they are now on the 2e.

The switch to the front wheel drive design is too technical for me to discuss the pros and cons, but I will suggest that a front wheel drive system is much more transferable to their future 4-wheeler vehicle, unlike a single drive wheel would've.

All in all, the 2e is still an excellent design, an efficient design, and an attractive design.

I think Aptera's only real mistake was to have dallied so that the other car makers can announce their all-electric car "available real soon now" that will appeal to the exact type of car buyer that Aptera has set their sights on -- us. We rabid few will wait, but many more may jump ship to order a Chevy Volt or a Toyota Plug-in Prius.

(Ohyeah, GM's estimated price for the Volt right now is 40,000-ish. Let's see a show of hands of those who think that the production date *won't* slide so much as a month, GM *won't* change any of the car's the spec's, and GM *won't* raise the estimated retail price as the production date edges near.)

Maybe it would've been better for Aptera to have started producing the Typ-1 back in October '08, and release the 2e as a new model year unit in October '09. That would've put Aptera would be in the public eye, but it would run the risk of possibly releasing an inferior product and causing future customers to turn away forever. (Who bought a Ford Pinto *after* they claimed that they fixed the exploding fuel tank problem? [RANT] Along those same lines, Audi, in the late 70's and early 80's made cars with paint that peeled off in flakes the size of 50-cent pieces after 2 years. "Not Audi's Problem." In the late 80's / early 90s, Audi cruise control units would automatically engage for no reason. "Not Audi's Problem." I will -never- buy an Audi. They didn't care about the customer then, and they probably don't now. [\RANT])

As for tomorrow's rollout to the public, I can hardly wait. I expect it to see it with roll-down windows, side view mirrors, cup holders, a bigger battery pack (option) and a fast-charge controller (option). Maybe even a glove compartment. And all of us (well most, anyway) will love it.

-- Ardie

[SEGsby]

How about canceling "optera's" ability to post pointless vitriolic spam? I have found not one single redeeming post from this individual.

The car bloody has windows... Rolling them down, is another matter. ;)

thanks,
SEGsby

???

Them cancelling what?

[NmGfan]

If you have a better word, I'm all ears.

I could not resist; todays new word is:

Antagonist

Remember to scream when you hear it used in a sentence!

(loosely paraphrased from Pee Wee's Playhouse) :happy0025:


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/antagonist

[APTERA 2356]

Can we just call them " A's " for short :sign0020: