April 4th?

[Morewine]

Hello,
Any idea on the location and the time for today's event.
I received a couple of emails from Aptera to save the date, I did.
:character0029:

[c0mp13x]

See post #72 of this thread: http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=2425&page=8

The "open to the general public" portion of the event runs from 10am-6pm today, so get there early.

:happy0025:

[Bakersfield2482]

Well, it's at the San Diego Automotive Museum but if you didn't RSVP then you aren't one of the 450. Can't say for sure if you will get VIP treatment, but it is a public showing. 10am - 6pm

[Aptera#1434]

Can someone find out at the April 4 San Diego Showing: When is Aptera going to start selling company shirts, hats, mugs, etc.??

Then we can proudly wear and help promote/support the Aptera revolution!

[aptera1213]

i like this shirt...simple...nice dark grey

aptera please sell these on your myaptera page when it starts up

[Brian]

I predict this event is going to be a mess... Good luck guys!

[Monev]

The parking was a mess. I drove around for half an hour looking for a spot until I gave up. I saw a truck with a trailer hauling an unfinished shell who I think was looking for a parking spot. Balboa Park may not have been the best location choice.

[JimmyDreams]

I predict this event is going to be a mess... Good luck guys!


Thats why I don't plan on heading down until after 4pm. If it's TOO much of a zoo, I'll be content laying my eyes on an Aptera and call it a day.

After all, it IS still a prototype. And when my number DOES come up, I'll have a lot of one-on-one time with the company and the car before I decide.

:wavey:

[esmith]

It was really tough to get there and find parking, 163 was in the single digits all the way from the 8, but we made it ... The free-for-all version consisted of the old "Zen" prototype parked in front of the entrance to the museum, and a newer "pp4" prototype (with side mirrors) inside.

[Bakersfield2482]

They might have picked a better venue. Hindsight is always 20-20. The SD Science Fair is always a zoo. About a gazillion kids running around. But it was a gorgeous day in a gorgeous place.

It was the older lime green interior vehicle on display outside the front door. Inside was the same vehicle displayed at TED and at Smooth's (per HR VP Kathy MacDougall). There's a private party for the Chosen Few running (at the museum - after it closes to the public) from 6pm to 10pm. All the major players are scheduled to be there along with a more recent prototype.

More later......

[G.M.]

along with a more recent prototype.


mmmmm, do tell....

any more info on this?

thanks

G.M.

[Bakersfield2482]

Well, it was a nice party. Turns out you didn't really need to be one of the Chosen Few to get in. No one was turned away. I think the affair was planned for fewer people and it was a little crowded.

There was a long line to get in the front door, long line to get a little food (not much was offered), very long line for sitting in the newest prototype, which is the same vehicle seen at TED and Smooth's. I thought there was going to be a newer one on display. I was wrong. Also on display, however, was the original first working model Fambro made and another prototype (the Zen). They have come a long long way.

A few t-shirts and water bottles were given out and it was announced that shirts, hats, and other logo-imprinted stuff will be available at the "online store" soon. Marques McCammon told me it would be by the end of the April. Then he later announced we should look for it within 30 days. More or less the same thing....

If I hadn't seen this same car in Long Beach I think I would have been more impressed by this showing. There were many more company people on hand for this event than the showing at Smooth's and they all seem like nice people but most of them didn't say much.

We arrived at 6:30. It was supposed to go until 10:00 but there weren't a lot of people left when we left around 8:30. On arriving, everyone was given a numbered ticket. 10 tickets were drawn and those people got rides around the parking lot in the 2e, chauffeured by Fambro. They were still there getting rides as we left. I'd be surprised if the whole thing didn't wrap up around 9:00.

Paul Wilbur told me they're on schedule to start distribution of the 2e in October and we should expect to see the 2h distribution start 6 months later (about a year from now). I think my patience is wearing thin. I want to take one home now.

[pk-sd]

Got back few hours ago from the event. Me and my family spent 4 hours in Balboa Park checking out the booths at the Science Festival. Finally made it to Automotive Museum around 5:45pm. Latest Aptera model was outside and people were lining-up for the private event.


We had one invitation but 8 people in our group(two reservations holders). But Aptera people (each and everyone) were so nice. They did not hesitate for even one second and let us all in. Overall the experience (including some food) was great. Got to sit in the car. Felt very comfortable. Got to talk with Steve and Chris. They let us hit Aptera shell with a sledge hammer (very cool). Looking forward to driving and then purchasing this baby in coming months.

[overpowered]

Turns out you didn't really need to be one of the Chosen Few to get in. No one was turned away. I think the affair was planned for fewer people and it was a little crowded.ARRRGH! I should have stuck around!

[esmith]

I got there around 8 so I did not participate in the raffle. Other than that, there was no fence, no bouncers, anyone could have come in unnoticed. Got to sit both in the old prototype and the new prototype.

Highlights:
- It's extremely quiet at parking lot speeds
- The exterior seems well built and solid

Lowlights:
- The steering wheel in the prototype is set very low. Even at the highest tilt setting it would scrape against my legs, especially if i try to put my foot on the brake pedal. I moved the driver seat forward to accommodate my short legs, it got stuck and they had some fun moving it back again.
- Tried to poke around in the on-board computer, it seems that the most interesting stuff (the section that would show how big the actual battery is, for example) was locked out.

[sck_nogas]

The steering wheel in the prototype is set very low. Even at the highest tilt setting it would scrape against my legs, especially if i try to put my foot on the brake pedal. I moved the driver seat forward to accommodate my short legs, it got stuck and they had some fun moving it back again.
The moment I got out of the prototype (PP4, I believe) the Aptera employee standing by the door asked how did I feel in the car, I spoke about the steering wheel, and he pointed out that this car was the one the designed last fall, and that PP6 has a full tilt steering wheel, and is much higher out of the way, since he (an inch or two shorter than my 6'2" height) had troubles with it as well. Plus he mentioned that the PP6 doors opened high enough that he could stand under them without ducking. Lastly, the seats in PP6 are lower in the vehicle, so there's more knee and head room.

So, from the event, I saw/sat/touched/poked an Aptera and was pleased with the prototype. I spoke with Paul Wilbur, Chris Anthony, and a large contingent of Aptera employees, along with speaking with other Aptera reservation holders. I even had a piece of Peruvian Dark Chocolate and some cheese on toasted bread! I had a good time, and left happy.

Scott
PS> My flight was delayed by the customer. :(

[jstdadd]

I sat in the Aptera that was out back - one of the Pre-Productions. I really liked the seats, even though I am a 'widebody', I am 5'9" and 245 lbs and most 'Sports Car' type seats don't fit me well - these were extremely comfortable.

I think even the longest legs would have no problem at all. I was kind of 'out-of-body' while in the seat, I was more concerned with the feel and drivability and most of the instrumentation was sort of 'off' or in some demo mode. There were a hundred people in line so I got in and out pretty quickly. The interior door lock release is a bit non-obvious in how it works, a firm press and it electrically unlocks. I knocked the locking mechanism 4-5 times before I got the timing right and got the door open. I didn't like it very much and if you had any kind of hindrance to your left arm you would not be able to open the door at all. I think there should be a variation. The same kind of button is used to get in, and here it was much more obvious, touch and pull. The way the door swings, for a novice, is probably what kept me from smoothly opening it from the inside. I saw several people that had the same problem I did, even to the point that the Aptera people had to help several people out.

See the pic here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37085353@N03/3413122411/in/set-72157616277029745/

[Anthony]

Since I had seen PP4 before (yes that is the name of the 4th generation prototype that was at TED and Smooth's), I most enjoyed talking to all the key people. These guys are gods in my opinion, yet to they are so willing to talk to us and be friendly.

First I talked with Marques McCammon. What a great guy. He is a real charmer. Funny, supper nice, smart, great sense of humor, really knows his stuff, speaks well, very personable and he is really funny. I could listen to him talk for hours. He has a hard job. The world wants to know all about Aptera and he wants to tell them, but he has no budget. He said that when he worked at GM event would get millions of dollars. He gave examples of stuff he did with $11M and $20M budgets. They were nothing compared to his current job now and yet his total budget for the year is far less. I don’t know how he do it.
I asked how it went in DC and he said very well. Over 200 senators and high-ranking officials got to test-drive the Aptera. Unfortunately, Obama was in California at the time. Anyway, I think that was brilliant move since Aptera is clearly not getting the support they should be getting.
Marques also told me about a story where he and someone else was speeding and got pulled over by a cop. Not only did the Aptera get them out of a ticket, but the police officer was totally supportive of the car. He saying it was about time for all cars to switch to electric and become more efferent. Humm, I wonder if this could be another benefit to buying an Aptera early.
Oh ya, talking about random support, there was another Washington DC story about how they just stopped in road and got mobbed. People start collecting all around the car and blocked the street. Another police officer showed up to see what was the matter and go sucked in as well. Aptera sure has a way of putting smiles on people’s faces.
Anyway, back to Marques, I told him that when I replied to the lock-in email, I said I would love to lock-in if I were able to buy the car. I said in the email that I could go as high a $30k (actually $32k after taxes and stuff). He said he remembered my email and that I was locked-in. You should have seen my grin. It meant at this point, Marques believes that they will have at least one version that I will be able to afford.
I also talked to Paul Wilber for a long time. He too is a great guy. It was just like we were old friends. He treated everyone that way, even my 19-year daughter, who he meat for the first time. While we were near PP4, she asked if he could pop the hood. He leans in (as a friend would) and quietly says, “I probably shouldn’t tell you this, but I can’t. It’s doesn’t open. The production version will, but this one just has a noise cone. Look at it. No hinges.” We all laughed. The door in the back is the same way. Unopenable.
To keep this short, I’ll jump forward to Chris Anthony. Another great guy! He is really proud of his composite design and technology. He was so enthusiastic about it that he took me over to crush test shell and hopped on top and jumped up and down. The thing that really impressed me was that he even jumped on the broken part. This shell had been cracked by a testing machine. Where the composite was clearly broken and had much less strength, it could still support his weight. But when he jumped on the broken crack, the roof depressed a few inches AND bounced back. Yes, it actually bounced back. This stuff is not like the fiberglass I’m familiar with. Once fiberglass breaks it just gives up. Not this composite martial, it does not shatter like fiberglass. It’s more like really really really strong rubber. It’s so rubbery that when people were given the chance to hit it with the hammer, they were each worded about the hammer bouncing off the car and hitting them in the face. Amazing.
This post is already too long, so let me just say, I had a great time and
Thank you Aptera!

I forgot to mention one of the most important things that Marques said. He said that he expected them to have a Sixth generation prototype there at the OC show! If not sixth then atleast a fith generation. So don't miss the Orange County Aptera Sighting.

[Matthijs]

I sat in the Aptera that was out back - one of the Pre-Productions. I really liked the seats, even though I am a 'widebody', I am 5'9" and 245 lbs and most 'Sports Car' type seats don't fit me well - these were extremely comfortable.

I think even the longest legs would have no problem at all. I was kind of 'out-of-body' while in the seat, I was more concerned with the feel and drivability and most of the instrumentation was sort of 'off' or in some demo mode. There were a hundred people in line so I got in and out pretty quickly. The interior door lock release is a bit non-obvious in how it works, a firm press and it electrically unlocks. I knocked the locking mechanism 4-5 times before I got the timing right and got the door open. I didn't like it very much and if you had any kind of hindrance to your left arm you would not be able to open the door at all. I think there should be a variation. The same kind of button is used to get in, and here it was much more obvious, touch and pull. The way the door swings, for a novice, is probably what kept me from smoothly opening it from the inside. I saw several people that had the same problem I did, even to the point that the Aptera people had to help several people out.

See the pic here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/37085353@N03/3413122411/in/set-72157616277029745/

Thanks for the great photo set! I placed them in the "ApteraForum User Submitted Photos" (http://www.apteraforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=10) forum. And in this shot: Link (http://www.flickr.com/photos/37085353@N03/3413910800/) from L to R; Chris Anthony, Paul Wilbur, Jason Hill, Steve Fambro and standing, with camera, Marques McCammon.

[prberg]

My wife and I went to the event last night and it was alot of fun. Great to see the 2e in person for the first time. My wife was not nearly as excited as I was. I said to her that as soon as my number comes up I can't wait to get one.. she didn't seem quite as ready to buy as I was. But I think by the time my number comes up (early to mid 2010?) we will be ready to buy and will have some 2e money saved up. Being green isn't cheap (solar panels, artifical lawn, electric vehicles).

I was curious how comfortable the 2e would be. While it's not as roomy as a normal 4-door sedan it felt comfortable. Lots of leg room (I'm 6'1"). Had trouble getting my legs under the steering wheel.. glad to hear the new version will tilt up if desired.

Overall it was a good event. The only negative was that I couldn't hear the guys talking (need to turn up the speaker!). I'm really hoping they can start production in October!

-Peter

[DonC]

I liked the fact that Aptera has really responded to the needs of the blind. The SQUEAK SQUEAK every time it hits a bump will definitely alert everyone within earshot! (Only kidding).

I don't know anything about manufacturing cars but my impression is that they have a long way to go and that production starting this fall is a stretch. From the mis-aimed headlights to the doors (did you notice how careful Steve Fambro was when letting people in and out?), there is a lot to do. Building a car is very very hard, especially with a very limited budget.

On the good side: The body looked bullet proof; it was very quick.

Having seen many pictures and video of the car, it didn't strike me as that unusual. However, when it went by in the parking lot a young boy asked his parents: "was that a car?" Obviously it is different looking but in a completely cool way.

I do hope they can find the money to build this car. It's the only BEV that makes sense at the moment.

[PhilTurner]

I was there and got to sit in it.

The bad:

At 6'3" it was no where near big enough for me. There was no position I could sit that my knees weren't hitting the steering wheel.

Visibility was very poor. The rear view mirror is good for looking directly behind you and nothing else.

It sounded clunky going over a speed bumb, yet the suspension seemed way too soft as it kind of bounced and squeaked along.

The good:

They said the interior in the current version has been redesigned offering 10% more room, and will include a tilt steering wheel. Hopefully that will be enough.

It is whisper quiet. And fast.

It looks even cooler in person, but doesn't look like some project in a garage at all. The whole package, even with this early prototype, feels professional. There was a 1990 Ferrari there that was clearly suffering from the 'we're too cool to make a production car' syndrome. The Aptera apparently will not suffer the same fate.

Overall, I want one more now than ever. Assuming I fit in it.

[Gena]

i was rather disappointed in the event... they didn't mention timing or specifics. I had to work (only got to "rsvp" after complaining... when they opened it up to additional guests - which, btw, I took the day off from work to be able to attend the event, then was told I could not, so i got my hours back... THEN was allowed to attend... UGH!).

I got there about 6:20 and was greeted kindly. They had said something about "proving" your reservation - which I hoped my print out of my pingg information would do... they never asked for it and merely asked my name and checked it off of the list... I wrote my name and reservation number ("if you know it" - they didn't ask anyone in their invitiation to look it up and be sure to know it) on my name tag... grabbed the tiniest glass of wine - but it was free, so i had no gripes on that - and then saw the ENDLESS line for cheese and fruit, so i headed straight to the back to get in line to stand in it.

so, to this point, i was a bit mixed already.

as i stoodin line, I got to befriend the couple in front of me... they were great. An hour later, the group of us, still in line, befriended the couple in front of them. We were moving fairly swiftly, so, we were "ok" overall... but then a little bit later, someone from Aptera, took the end half of the line and moved them up to the passenger side of the vehicle to try it out. It HAD been that the front of the line was being split: half to the driver's and the other half to the passenger's side... But, with them pulling the back half of the line up to the passenger's side, suddenly the line slowed to a crawl. we were very disappointed.

Yes, the sound was AWFUL! But it seemed that it was mostly b/c the people doing most of the talking didn't know how to talk into the microphone b/c the very first guy (who was also the very last guy that i heard) was VERY loud and clear.

And, no kidding, the group of us got to the very front of the line, when someone from Aptera jumped in the car and drove it away.... they were doing the 10 test drives that they had given away in the auction.... WHAT?!!!! We had been waiting for HOURS! had been "line jumped" by hundreds of people and now had to wait for the 10 test drives to happen for the car to come back? That REALLY sucked.

They pulled the older model out for us, but it really left me feeling like I had wasted my time and had no better feeling of the vehicle. I had already been waiting for hours, and they were saying that I could wait longer until the car returned to get to sit in it.... WHAT?

I saw NOTHING else that they had to exhibit. Did not participate in the silent auction (b/c i waited in line my entire time).

I have video out on youtube. My id is: genabena852

[maestronius]

Was at the Aptera "kegger" (yes they had a keg of beer there too) and left with an overall positive impression. It was highlighted by a long conversation with a very proud and candid Paul Wilbur. Here are the highlights of that conversation (in no particular order).

The event was originally planned to be inside the museum. The capacity of that museum is 450, so they set that limit for the rsvp page. When the event sold out in 45 minutes, they went back to museum and asked if they could also have the back yard. Luckily, the museum was cooperative and they were able to invite anyone that wanted to come. The final tally was something like 718 guests.

He is still sticking to the October release, but now says it will start small. He said the sure way to kill the car was to deliver it before it was right.

He wants to comply with all the crash tests to ensure to the customer that the car is safe. And to shut up any competition (the big 3) who would say that the vehicle is unsafe. He recollected a conversation he had with the head of Tesla that he intended to pass all the crash tests. Including the hardest one which Tesla did not pass. (Can't remember the exact number, 208?)

The charger will be auto selecting and will draw as much voltage/current as you can give it. The 8-10 hour recharge time is based on 110v/10a. But you will be able to give it 110v/15a, to 220v/30a. Not sure if it will take up to 220v/50a.

Someone else asked if he can upgrade his e to an h. Paul said they were considering this possibility. He said that was a very interesting question. I said that I just wanted to upgrade to a 20kwh battery. Paul then leaned over to me and whispered, "you're gonna get you wish".

They are still working on the particular way they will handle regen braking. He listed 3 or 4 ways they are investigating. But haven't finalized it yet.

The next event will be April 23? 26?(can't remember) in the San Francisco area.

I had numerous and enjoyable conversations with many other Aptera employees. All of whom were very nice. Left around 9:45, almost everyone else was gone by then.

[Matthijs]

I have video out on youtube. My id is: genabena852

I took the liberty to put your great video's into the Aptera Videos (http://apteraforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6) section of the forum.

[Matthijs]

Here are ~140 pictures of the April 4th event. Flickr Photoset (http://www.flickr.com/photos/giantquesadilla/)

[KarenRei]

The 8-10 hour recharge time is based on 110v/10a. But you will be able to give it 110v/15a, to 220v/30a. Not sure if it will take up to 220v/50a.

Huh, they're using *10A* as their baseline? I wonder why. All of my outdoor electric hardware (electric tiller, electric lawnmower, etc) draws 13A (on a nominal 15A socket). I guess an abundance of caution for people with really bad wiring :) On a typical garage socket, you should be able to safely draw 17 or 18A, as those are typically on 20A breakers. NEMA 5-15 sockets are ostensibly only for 15A, but most garage, kitchen, and bathroom sockets are over-wired.

Including the hardest one which Tesla did not pass. (Can't remember the exact number, 208?)

I don't know the number, but it was a side impact test. But wow, what a great talking point that would be, for them to do *all* crash testing and get a better score than Tesla. ;) Definitely a "this'll shut 'em up" sort of thing.

I said that I just wanted to upgrade to a 20kwh battery. Paul then leaned over to me and whispered, "you're gonna get you wish".

WHOA. Talk about "newsflash"! Holy heck, that'd be awesome. I'm sure it'd cost a pretty penny.

[jstdadd]

I don't know how you tell a 110V load to 'only' draw 10 amps; there is no simple way to determine that you have a breaker that draws 10 amps short of looking in the breaker box. Perhaps the draw is programmable from the dash computer-thingie?

[futura]

I managed to get down to the event after a business trip to Matthijs' region.
FWIW, here's my jet-lagged recollections:
Got there late 8:30-ish. After seeing so many 2D views of this thing my first impressions reminded me of a post by "butter" I think. Not awe-struck but taken by just how shiny and smooth the thing is -- to paraphrase LATimes' Dan Neil; an alabaster tear from staring at the future too long.
When it's quiet motion was interrupted by the "creak, creak" of some suspension tic it was dissonant to the point of comedy, like some Mel Brooks gag. The marketeers must cringe every time they hear it.
Getting there late was a blessing. The crowd was minimal by 9pm and I could sit in and play with both vehicles.
All the Aptera folks, who must have been wiped, were extremely friendly and accommodating.
I asked Paul W. a little about battery tech: Four manufacturers under consideration, 2 prismatic type 2 cylindrical. Phosphate type of Lithium not a 'given'; so I guess Enerdel is a potential contender. They're going for reliability of the battery as a key issue, more so than density. Paul believes the cylindrical type currently has the reliability edge on prismatic. He also believes the battery tech will change greatly in the next two years so they also may quickly change battery types. Battery kWh is not one of the "options"; they'll all be the same initially for the Typ2e.
Battery and inverter systems are air cooled with some 'novel' techniques.
Some possible options (per Wilbur) to get you from $25k to $40k:
Solar panel (he agreed with me that it's an expensive option with little energy payback compared to a larger battery).
Nav -- "infotainment" system.
Three different sound systems-- the base is essentially a radio.

As mentioned by another poster; they will pass all crash tests. Probably go through 30 Apteras to do that. I personally think that's going to delay production.

I'm really glad I went; the car seems plenty big inside and out to me (I'm a 6-1; not wide). I was very impressed with the fit and finish as well as how solid the body and frame felt.
I don't think I'd go again until the next iteration was available and a test drive was possible. I think the rear visibility will be an issue for some folks and I hope they address it.
Cheers

[Anthony]

I don't know how you tell a 110V load to 'only' draw 10 amps; there is no simple way to determine that you have a breaker that draws 10 amps short of looking in the breaker box.
You're right, but the charger could tell how good your wiring is. It could measure the voltage drop as it adds more and more load. If an outlet that was 110V with no load drops to 100V with a 10amp load, better not take any more. Something out there might be getting hot. However, if it drops only 1 volt with a 10amp draw, kick it up to 15amps or even 17 amps.
If I were making the charger, I would draw as many amps as it takes to cause a 5 volt drop (up to 17amps of course). Because 5 volts at 17 amps is 85 watts of lost energy (heat) and that is not going to start a fire or be too waistful (less than 5%).
On a similar note, Paul told me that they will have an adapter that fixed into the car for 220V. That way we don't have to put 220V on a NEMA 5-15 plug.

BTW, I had a good time hanging with you and I'm sorry you didn't win a test drive with all those extra tickets you bought.

Also here is a picture I like. It's of Paul and Marques calling out raffle numbers. I think it captures the fun atmosphere and the laughter.

http://www.windways.org/aptera/20090404SD/Paul%20and%20Marques.JPG
Marques joking around

[Ceazar77]

Someone else asked if he can upgrade his e to an h. Paul said they were considering this possibility. He said that was a very interesting question. I said that I just wanted to upgrade to a 20kwh battery. Paul then leaned over to me and whispered, "you're gonna get you wish".

Although it's been hinted at before, I've been waiting for an answer to this question for a while. I had asked them if it would be possible, once battery technology has advanced to the point where energy density is increased and quick charging is readily available, to swap out the ICE for more batteries. They said that this may be a possibility, but that they were still working on design so nothing was finalized yet. If the 2h has the same electric range as the 2e (and is able to systain speeds of at least 70mph) this would far exced my expectations and explain the price of the 2h.

If the 2e was able to be easily converted to a 2h, I would change my reservation to a 2e tommorow. I plan on driving my Aptera for alot of years although I will need a 4h once kids show up :happy0025: .

[KarenRei]

You're right, but the charger could tell how good your wiring is. It could measure the voltage drop as it adds more and more load. If an outlet that was 110V with no load drops to 100V.

Two problems with that.

1) That doesn't give you any sort of idea when the breaker will throw.
2) You don't know what voltage is being delivered to the breaker box.

The standard approach is just to let the user pick how many amps they want to draw.

But yeah, if 8-10 hours is for 10A, then I'm going to be looking at 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 in my garage. ;) Awesome to think that an EV with 100+ miles of range could charge to full on a single NEMA 5-15 in that amount of time. Wow... the implications of that... think "rest areas" and "two opposite phase NEMA 5-15/20s merged with an adapter to 220V" (such sockets are available all over the place at rest areas, at least in IA and IL). That should actually give a fairly reasonable charging time, and those sort of rest areas are bloody everywhere.

I plan on driving my Aptera for alot of years although I will need a 4h once kids show up

Same thing Elaine and I are looking at. :) But again, if battery tech and charger infrastructure is up to snuff by then, perhaps a 4e. I wouldn't need some incredible amount of range, but I would need to feel comfortable that I'd be able to rapid charge it most anywhere I wanted to go, if I wanted it to be able to kick my old Saturn out of the driveway.

[Anthony]

2) You don't know what voltage is being delivered to the breaker box.

Well, yes and no. You do know the voltage at the breaker box if there is no other current draw. If you are the only thing on the circlet, then the voltage is the same everywhere. You only get a voltage drop once current start to flow. If there is something else drawing current, then you better not take 17 amps. As you said, most breaks are 20 amps, so if something else is taking more then 3 amps, you could pop the breaker.
But I agree with you, user selectable current is the way to go. What do you think about the following software control settings for 110v charging:
5 amp
10 amps
15 amps
17 amps
20 amps (only to be used when plugged into special 110/20amp outlets)
Time 8 hours
Time 10 hours
Time 12 hours
Auto - Safe (cause a 1 volt drop)
Auto - Fast (cause a 5 volt drop)

The time settings calculates the minimum amperage to charge in that amount of time. If you know you are not going to drive to work for 12 hours (like me, I get home at 7pm and leave at 8 am). Why charge any quicker then you need. Faster charging is less efficient and its harder on the batteries too.

[KarenRei]

If you are the only thing on the circlet, then the voltage is the same everywhere.

But that's not the case. It'd only be possible if there was precisely one generator, you were the only person they were feeding, and there was a known, fixed resistance along the lines to your home. In the real world, even the voltage on long haul high voltage wires varies. Just by a couple volts, generally, but that's enough to throw off your proposed system. In the real world, not only does the voltage that arrives at different peoples' homes vary from one home to the next, but it even varies across time of day.

It's a neat idea, but it only works with a constant feed voltage, which we don't get in the real world, and of course doesn't detect at what current your breakers will trip. :) On that latter issue, I should note that even if you assume always 20A breakers, which isn't a safe assumption in the least, there will even be variations in where they will actually trip.

[jstdadd]

National Electrical Code calls for 15 Amp breakers for household circuits; 20 amps require the different '20 amp plug', so you can identify these pretty easily (assuming somebody hasn't retrofit the wrong plug.) The plug with two vertical slots and one 'round' (more like 'D') ground slot indicates a 15 amp circuit.

If you live in a house with electric resistance heat or an electric resistance water heater, you can see the lights dim when the heaters cut in. I can see this in my house when my wife uses her hair dryer. Voltage can vary a bit - if you are drawing too much power, and the voltage drops, you can expect to pop a breaker that is near the edge. I lean toward 'user selected' current settings.

In my case, I'll put in a dedicated 220V circuit, of enough amps to feed whatever the Aptera charger can handle. 3-4 hours, I suspect, is the recharge time to 90% or so, at 220V and 30-40 amps available.

[Anthony]

But that's not the case. It'd only be possible if there was precisely one generator, you were the only person {snip}

Wait a minute. I know you know Ohm's law so I must not have been clear. I'm not saying anything you don't already know. Maybe we should move this to another thread, but what I was saying is that if there is no currently flowing through a particular breaker (a household circlet), the voltage is the same everywhere on that circlet. Right? Try it. E=IR where I=0amps so the voltage drop between the meter and the breaker is 0 no matter what R is. (Please don't point out that volt meters take some current and if R was mega-ohms....)
So, if there is no (to little) current draw on the circlet when the Aptera is first pluged in, the Apter could measure the voltage at the panel. (eg, 103.5 volts at 0 amps) Then it could put a test draw of 10 amps and measure the voltage drop (101.3 volts at 10 amps). It could then calculate the resistance of the house wiring. (E=IR, 2.2=10R or 0.22 Ohms)
Now, if you think there is a chance that someone else turned something on in the few milliseconds it took to do the test, the charger could check by killing the load (0 amps) and make sure the voltage goes back to first test point (103.5V). If it does not, it should repeat the test until it gets a reliable reading.
I once did this test in my parent's 1923 house. I measured a 10 volt drop when I plugged in a 17 amp space heater. Wow! Not wanting to start a fire in the walls, I replacing it with an 8 amp heater and froze buns off.

[paddler13]

National Electrical Code calls for 15 Amp breakers for household circuits; 20 amps require the different '20 amp plug', so you can identify these pretty easily (assuming somebody hasn't retrofit the wrong plug.) The plug with two vertical slots and one 'round' (more like 'D') ground slot indicates a 15 amp circuit.



Where are you getting this? I've got a mix of 20 amp and 15 amp circuits in my home and there are no differences in the 110v plugs but the 20 amp circuits themselves require 12 gauge wire rather than 14 gauge and there are some outlets which are 15 amp only that don't allow 12 gauge wire to be inserted into the back (though the screws work OK, which really makes no sense).

The outlets themselves may be beefier but there is no difference in 110 plugs between 15 amp circuits and 20 amp circuits.

Also, I've seen grid power vary by 3 or 4 volts and frequency fluctuations too. "stable" is more loosely defined than you might think in terms of the power grid. It's why it's always a good idea to have a UPS for your computer.

[KarenRei]

National Electrical Code calls for 15 Amp breakers for household circuits; 20 amps require the different '20 amp plug', so you can identify these pretty easily (assuming somebody hasn't retrofit the wrong plug.) The plug with two vertical slots and one 'round' (more like 'D') ground slot indicates a 15 amp circuit.

Ostensibly -- that was the idea behind the NEMA 5-15. But it doesn't generally in practice. Check your kitchen and bathroom sockets. You'll probably find they're wired with #12 wire and on a 20A breaker.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/2008/5/home-wiring-31.htm

The issue is that in some places in the house, people commonly plug in devices that are right at the 15A limit, so it's safer to over-wire them. Hair dryers are often ~1600 watts. Deep fryers, ~1500 or so. Power tools are often right near the limit. And mix in a power strip or any incidental initial surge currents, and you're risking going over 15A. So kitchens, bathrooms, and garages typically get 20A.

[KarenRei]

Now, if you think there is a chance that someone else turned something on in the few milliseconds it took to do the test, the charger could check by killing the load (0 amps) and make sure the voltage goes back to first test point (103.5V). If it does not, it should repeat the test until it gets a reliable reading.

Ah, I see what you're saying -- a brief probe current, not something that will be checked over time, and thus won't be affected by the change in voltage over time. Well, that still leaves you unable to determine what sort of breaker you're dealing with. And what if your circuit isn't completely unloaded?

It's a neat idea, but I can't see it working in practice. We need "smarter" household power distribution for that.

[maestronius]

Huh, they're using *10A* as their baseline? I wonder why.

That struck me as interesting too. When he first said it, I asked him again. "The 8-10 hour charge time is based off of 110v 10a?" His reply, "yes".

He said the charger is auto selecting and will draw as much as you give it, so it must somehow test the circuit first. I don't think they are going to allow the user to select, to much room for error imo.

[esmith]

I find it puzzling that the simple question of battery capacity is surrounded by so much doubt and misinformation. We started with 10 kwh, then it was 10-13, then it was 17-22 ... and now it's supposed to be chargeable in 8 hours from 110v 10a outlet, which is not possible with more than 9 kwh, so we back to square 1 and beyond. "All our vehicles will have the same battery capacity, which will be 9 kwh, 22 kwh, or somewhere in between."

[KarenRei]

8-10 hours. And you'll probably find that the voltage at your socket is more like 117V or so, give or take a few volts. Of course, then factor in 92-93% charger efficiency and perhaps 98% pack efficiency. But then factor in that the full pack is not going to be available, since no EV is going to use 0% to 100%. If we assume usage of 85% of a pack, 92% and 98% efficiency, 117V, and 10A, and no equalization time (since this is slow charging), that'd fill a 9.9kWh pack in 8 hours and 12.4kWh pack in 10 hours. So right in that 10-13kWh range.

As for 17-22kWh, that's something new. I can't wait to see what sort of range stats they get on *that* pack. Remember, as they said: they have one pack that's "ready to go today" (which is almost certainly in the 10-13kWh range), and they're considering a higher density one (which is almost certainly in the 17-22kWh range).

[randyd]

I find it puzzling that the simple question of battery capacity is surrounded by so much doubt and misinformation. We started with 10 kwh, then it was 10-13, then it was 17-22 ... and now it's supposed to be chargeable in 8 hours from 110v 10a outlet, which is not possible with more than 9 kwh, so we back to square 1 and beyond. "All our vehicles will have the same battery capacity, which will be 9 kwh, 22 kwh, or somewhere in between."

The numbers don't quite add up unless you factor in a Depth of Discharge limit programmed into the controller and reduced capacity as the batteries age. Remember the warranty.

10 hours * 10 Amps * 110 Volts = 11 kWh. If the pack is 22 kWh, then the numbers come out right with a 50% DoD limit (like the Volt, right?). If the capacity is 17 kWh, the DoD would be 65%. Both of these DoD limits would be extremely conservative with the batteries we think they are considering.

Now factor in aging and reduce the total capacity by 20%. The 22 kWh starting capacity will decline to 17.6 kWh. The numbers work out if that pack had a 62% DoD limit in the controller. If the pack starts at 17 kWh, the capacity becomes 13.6 kWh, and the DoD limit of 80% would mean a completely (80%) depleted pack would be fully recharged in 10 hours at 10 Amps and 110 V (ignoring losses).

That's only a guess, but is my guess. :)

[esmith]

If we assume usage of 85% of a pack

I don't like this assumption ... but I guess that's possible. But it would mean that effective battery capacity is not 10-13 but only 8.5-11 kwh, and the range goes down accordingly.

And then there's another question ... if it charges from a X amp circuit, would it draw exactly X amp, or slightly less, say X*0.95? 10 amp breakers are uncommon but they exist. Say, if different 10 amp breakers trigger at 9.75 ... 10.25 amp, and the charger may experience current fluctuations of +/-0.25 amp, that means they can only draw 9.5 amp safely and continuously from the outlet.

As for 17-22kWh, that's something new. I can't wait to see what sort of range stats they get on *that* pack.

I can tell you what range. 100-120 miles at 70 mph.

[jstdadd]

Yeah, the new brochure specifically says 8-10 hours Charging, 17-22 KWh battery pack.

[DonC]

I've always assumed the 10-13 meant they pack was 13 kWh and they actually used 10 kWh and that the new 17-22 or whatever means the pack is 22 kWh and they use 17 kWh. This means they'd be reserving 23% of the pack, which seems like a reasonable minimum.

As for range, I think esmith has it right. We're looking at 100-120 miles under reasonably aggressive driving conditions. I've never thought the original 10 kWh pack was going to reliably get you to 100 miles. This is great BTW because it should address just about all the range issues though perhaps not not all the range anxiety issues.

The charge time doesn't seem mysterious to me. I think of electrical wiring for a standard house as being 15 or 20 amps. (I have an older house with two 15 amp breakers, everything else is 20 or above). At 110 this means that you can deliver about 17 kWh in roughly 8 or 10 hours (a bit more than ten at 15 amps and a bit less than eight at 20 amps).

[KarenRei]

I don't like this assumption ... but I guess that's possible. But it would mean that effective battery capacity is not 10-13 but only 8.5-11 kwh, and the range goes down accordingly.

The range doesn't "go down" accordingly; whatever DoD they use, that's already accounted for.

You *can* deep discharge phosphates, and they'll certainly do better than LiCoO2 cells, but it's still not a good idea. Also, the inverter will have a minimum voltage it can deal with.

if it charges from a X amp circuit, would it draw exactly X amp, or slightly less, say X*0.95?

In the US, if a circuit is rated for a specific number of amps, you should never try to draw that many amps from it. You might get away with it, you might not. You really shouldn't draw more than 80-90% of its rated capacity.

As a specific example, Kris Trexler's "Charge Across America" involved carrying around a charger for his EV1 that was designed to never draw more than 29.5 amps. It was supposed to be installed on a 50A circuit. However, he frequently used it on 30A circuits. It worked great... all but two times. Both of those times, it started out charging fine, but then he came back to his car and it had barely charged at all before the breakers threw.

[hill]

I find it puzzling that the simple question of battery capacity is surrounded by so much doubt and misinformation. We started with 10 kwh, then it was 10-13, then it was 17-22 ... and now it's supposed to be chargeable in 8 hours from 110v 10a outlet, which is not possible with more than 9 kwh, so we back to square 1 and beyond. "All our vehicles will have the same battery capacity, which will be 9 kwh, 22 kwh, or somewhere in between."

If it's any comfort, consider this. While at the S.D. event, I asked a covert question (deliberatly so I could guestimate battery capacity ... after seeing other more direct questions were kind of being dodged) of the engineer. I asked him, "How many KWH do you estimate it will take to recharge the battery pack that you're planning on using, if, for example, the batterys are discharged down below the last 20% ?" The answer?
About 20
That's all I need to know.