April 22 meeting at Stanford Mall

[jsnable]

Just saw a Tweet about a meeting for depositors at the mall next week. An invitation to follow... Needless to say that I will be there with camera, questions, and enthusiasm in hand!

Jay

[KarenRei]

Two things I'd like to know::

* Is the range now 200 miles, and if so, is that standard?
* What's the approximate DoD on the battery pack? Don't need exact numbers -- just is it in the "90%" range, the "70%" range, the "50%" range, or whatnot.

[zkc]

Also, i'd love to know what turning radius we can expect from the 2e. My prius isn't too shabby at 17.1 feet, but this is with power steering.

[motoxo]

i haven't gotten that tweet. :( ... and frell! that's outside my vectrix's range. guess i'll be taking public transit.

[motoxo]

okay, TWO minutes after i send this post ... i get an invite.

aptera corp. you need to stop reading my mind.

[John O]

I work two blocks away, but I'll be out of town at a trade show (in Vegas)...

I was hoping to get to meet Marques (and beg for a test drive). All of you who are going, take lots of pictures!

John O

[Aptera#1434]

YES!!!! I've been waiting for this day! I received my invite today at 7:30a.m.

I hope I get a lottery ticket for a ride!:thumbsup:

[speculawyer]

Awesome . . . this is walking distance from where i live.

[Rat]

I just RSVP'ed for 2 at 9:00a today.

[Dolphyn]

I plan to be there.

Details, for anyone who missed it:

April 22, 5:00 PM to 8:00 PM
680 Stanford Shopping Center, Palo Alto 94304

(I never realized that "Stanford Shopping Center" was a street with address numbers, but apparently so, based on the Google map!)

[Tamerlin]

I also shall be there, camera in hand.

I'll print out all the questions I find in this thread and sit on top of an Aptera until they answer them all.

[Scott]

I'll be there too!

[rnward]

I am seriously bummed, since I have to be out of town next week. I hope that all you skilled photographers post many fun pix so I can see them in upstate New York...

[Dolphyn]

I just realized that "680 Stanford Shopping Center" is actually the mailing address for the mall office, so it probably doesn't correspond to the actual event location within the mall. If anyone knows specifically where in the mall this event will take place, please post!

[Ceazar77]

That's bad timing. I leave for LA 2 hours before the event starts. Hopefully they make another trip back to the Bay Area shortly.

[Aptera#1434]

I think I'll try to scout out the Stanford Mall parking lot in advance, say around 1pm and try to post the location. Since I grew up in the area, I know the mall very well.

[Gena]

i got a tweet and an email about the palo alto thing.

i was suprised that i am now being "followed" by two different aptera twitters...

[hill]

If it's anything like San Diego's event, you'll all be very glad you went.

[jstdadd]

If it's anything like San Diego's event, you'll all be very glad you went.

Quite true. Be sure to ask Paul about how you tow the Aptera!

[garygid]

Ask:
When do they expect to have the real production prototype done.

Are the new doors and windows done yet?

Can no-pedal (feet off the pedals) regeneration be "adjusted" by the driver down to zero (for free-wheel "coasting")?

Will "strong" air conditioning be available? And, for approximately how much extra money?

Will the steering wheel be adjustable forward and back, along with up and down.

Will the 2h be capable of continuous "full speed" operation on the generator alone?

Is the backup camera an option, or is it completely gone?

Is there a "large" screen option for the 180-degree rear-view camera?

What resolution, and how distorted is the rear-view video?

Can it be "recorded"?

Can the cabin heating and cooling system be operated by the computer, to have it come on at a set time (before an anticipated trip-start time)?

Why are wider tires (175 vs. 165) being specified?

Do the new tires have BETTER wear and wet-weather traction specs?

Do they still intend to include a jack?

How much will a "spare" (wheel and tire) cost?

Will the required charging current be adjustable?

Will the windows have both IR and UV blocking?

Does the solar-powered cabin ventilation work in the shade?

Is that ventilation thermostatically controlled?

Is there a battery "BMS" system that detects over and under voltage on each series cell?

Is each cell protected against over-charging and over-discharging?

What happens when motor or controller over-temperature is detected?

Are "weak" battery-cells detected and relatively easy to replace?

If left on, do the interior and exterior lights get shut off automaticly?

Will one 2e support several RFIDs?

Will an alarm/charge-status/anti-theft system, with a remote monitor, be an option?

Will the wheel skirts be re-designed (perhaps with rubber lower parts) to be curb-friendly?

When will preliminary user and service manuals be available to read or download?

Do they expect to produce the 2e manuals without end-user feedback?

I guess that is enough for now.
Thanks, Gary

[motoxo]

wow gary.

that's some really amazing questions. hopefully someone else (with a higher rating than tadpole like me <edit: now i'm a junior member woot!>) asks? i tend to get stage fright and will probably just stutter. "coooool."

i re-read my rsvp request info and it looks like we get to see it but no rides? ... i wanna ride. even though it's a 2e and i'm in the hybrid line. ...

[n_dawg]

Oh Oh Oh! I know some of these!

Ask:
When do they expect to have the real production prototype done.


Predicted answer: No comment.

Are the new doors and windows done yet?

Predicted answer: No comment, humorous variation.

Can no-pedal (feet off the pedals) regeneration be "adjusted" by the driver down to zero (for free-wheel "coasting")?

Predicted answer: No.

Will "strong" air conditioning be available? And, for approximately how much extra money?

Predicted answer: The climate control system in the Aptera will be strong enough for all your SoCal needs. We want to drive these things too, ya know!

Will the steering wheel be adjustable forward and back, along with up and down.

Predicted answer: We're working with our Chief Ergonomacist, Ed Backbreaker, to make sure the Aptera 2e will be comfortable for 99% of drivers. Specific adjustments are still being hashed out.

Will the 2h be capable of continuous "full speed" operation on the generator alone?

Predicted answer: We're currently formulating the requirements for the Aptera 2h generator. All I can assure you is that you will be able to draw the attention of the police, and you won't be able to outrun them. ;)

Is the backup camera an option, or is it completely gone?

Predicted answer: The backup camera is optional. We want to offer the latest and greatest in terms of safety and creature comforts in the 2e, but we know that many people view that as a niche, luxury item, not a necessity.

Is there a "large" screen option for the 180-degree rear-view camera?

Predicted answer: No.

What resolution, and how distorted is the rear-view video?

Predicted answer: The optical characteristics of the lens and camera are still being refined. What you see here today is going to be improved in the final production version.

Can it be "recorded"?

Predicted answer: That is one of the proposed feature's of Aptera's 'Black Box,' which would save the last few seconds of data in the event of an accident.

Can the cabin heating and cooling system be operated by the computer, to have it come on at a set time (before an anticipated trip-start time)?

Predicted answer: What does this look like to you, the EV1? <laughs> Actually, that feature is currently built in to the 2e's iPhone remote control. With our always-on cabin ventilation, we don't anticipate it being as necessary as it is for some other vehicles out there.

Why are wider tires (175 vs. 165) being specified?

Predicted answer: Because they work better! Don't worry, we're designing forwards, not backwards. :D

Do the new tires have BETTER wear and wet-weather traction specs?

Predicted answer: No comment. Nice shoes, though! <intentionally ambiguous>

Do they still intend to include a jack?

Predicted answer: Since the battery redesign is making the cargo compartment larger almost daily, who knows what we might bundle? ;)

Real answer: You'll pay extra, just like the spare.

How much will a "spare" (wheel and tire) cost?

Predicted answer: Does that mean you're ready for your down payment? *grin*

Will the required charging current be adjustable?

Predicted answer: No.

Real answer: Yes, but not by the user.

Will the windows have both IR and UV blocking?

Predicted answer: Yes.

Real answer: We're using an IR reflective coating. All automotive glass absorbs UV.

Does the solar-powered cabin ventilation work in the shade?

Predicted answer: Can you see in the shade? If so, we can still cool in the shade.

Is that ventilation thermostatically controlled?

Predicted answer: Yes.

Is there a battery "BMS" system that detects over and under voltage on each series cell?

Is each cell protected against over-charging and over-discharging?

Predicted answer: Actually, I have the latest battery schematic right here… *ruffles*. As you can see,…

Real predicted answer: <I don't even have to say it, do I?>

What happens when motor or controller over-temperature is detected?

Predicted answer: The on-board cooling system is more than adequate to handle the motor and controller's waste heat. Your right foot will overheat before the motor does.

Are "weak" battery-cells detected and relatively easy to replace?

Predicted answer: One of the options we're investigating for Aptera Authorized Servicing is on-board battery evaluation and refurbishing. It will come with a modest fee. <haha! now you want to know what the fee is! Aren't you sad you asked?>

If left on, do the interior and exterior lights get shut off automaticly?

Predicted answer: Yes.

Will one 2e support several RFIDs?

Predicted answer: Yes. Wouldn't be much point without them, would there?

Will an alarm/charge-status/anti-theft system, with a remote monitor, be an option?

Predicted answer: Anti-theft will be standard. <gasps!>

Will the wheel skirts be re-designed (perhaps with rubber lower parts) to be curb-friendly?

Predicted answer: Long, winding 'no comment'.

When will preliminary user and service manuals be available to read or download?

Predicted answer: Why, when we have users and service technicians, of course!

Do they expect to produce the 2e manuals without end-user feedback?

Hoped-for answer: We'll be providing constant updates and improvements to our online and onboard manuals. But you wouldn't expect anything less from Aptera. :)

Predicted answer: We're subcontracting all that out to India. :scared0011:

[Holz]

Could you also ask where the repair/maintenance centers will be located? and/or whether there will be a fleet of roving repair trucks (as discussed on the "Authorized repair maintenance" thread)? Also, has training for these begun yet and if not, why not with about 5 months left to go before release? Thank you.

[Matthijs]

Aptera Twitter: If you're a depositor, but haven't received an invite to the event, please email us: customerservice@aptera.com

[jstdadd]

Ask:
When do they expect to have the real production prototype done.

Are the new doors and windows done yet?

Can no-pedal (feet off the pedals) regeneration be "adjusted" by the driver down to zero (for free-wheel "coasting")?

Will "strong" air conditioning be available? And, for approximately how much extra money?

Will the steering wheel be adjustable forward and back, along with up and down.

Will the 2h be capable of continuous "full speed" operation on the generator alone?

Is the backup camera an option, or is it completely gone?

Is there a "large" screen option for the 180-degree rear-view camera?

What resolution, and how distorted is the rear-view video?

Can it be "recorded"?

Can the cabin heating and cooling system be operated by the computer, to have it come on at a set time (before an anticipated trip-start time)?

Why are wider tires (175 vs. 165) being specified?

Do the new tires have BETTER wear and wet-weather traction specs?

Do they still intend to include a jack?

How much will a "spare" (wheel and tire) cost?

Will the required charging current be adjustable?

Will the windows have both IR and UV blocking?

Does the solar-powered cabin ventilation work in the shade?

Is that ventilation thermostatically controlled?

Is there a battery "BMS" system that detects over and under voltage on each series cell?

Is each cell protected against over-charging and over-discharging?

What happens when motor or controller over-temperature is detected?

Are "weak" battery-cells detected and relatively easy to replace?

If left on, do the interior and exterior lights get shut off automaticly?

Will one 2e support several RFIDs?

Will an alarm/charge-status/anti-theft system, with a remote monitor, be an option?

Will the wheel skirts be re-designed (perhaps with rubber lower parts) to be curb-friendly?

When will preliminary user and service manuals be available to read or download?

Do they expect to produce the 2e manuals without end-user feedback?

I guess that is enough for now.
Thanks, Gary

Gary: Good List!

I'm wondering, however...did you send an email asking these questions?

[earther]

Just wondering if anyone from the Gilroy/Morgan Hill area was planning on attending the Stanford showing... if so, interested in carpooling?

-Steve

[ev_nv]

Stanford Event.

Interesting that they weren't specific about where the shopping center the event will be located. For interest, just north of El Camino is the Tesla showroom which last weekend displayed their Telsa S sedan prototype - niiiice!

I'll be there Wed evening to check out the upcoming version. Guess I'll be driving over in my low-key plugin Prius rather than a flash Sparrow due to the distance. Hope to see other Bay Area reservees at this event.

[Dolphyn]

What's a "flash Sparrow"? If it's a Sparrow EV, you can charge up in the parking garage underneath Palo Alto City Hall (Bryant/Emerson), if that helps any. They have 110v and 220v outlets available, as well as some kind of specialized charger (not sure which kind).

I'm planning to drive my City-EL to the Aptera event, so if you see someone in a tiny yellow three-wheeler, it's probably me. :)

[Brian]

I will be there! I just can't figure out why reservation holders have to enter a raffle to get a ride .... That's lame...!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[KarenRei]

While Gary's stuff would be nice to know, most of it seems either unimportant or obvious to me. All I really care about is my two initial questions:

* Is the range now 200 miles, and if so, is that standard?
* What's the approximate DoD on the battery pack? Don't need exact numbers -- just is it in the "90%" range, the "70%" range, the "50%" range, or whatnot.

[prberg]

I will be there! I just can't figure out why reservation holders have to enter a raffle to get a ride .... That's lame...!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Because it's pretty much impossible to give 400 people a ride in the car (that's how many people were at the San Diego event). Just to SIT in the car for a minute... that line was over an hour long.

Test drives aren't practical till we get closer to actual delivery and specific appointments can be scheduled. Patience, they will come.

[Gena]

I will be there! I just can't figure out why reservation holders have to enter a raffle to get a ride .... That's lame...!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

it's the same as the san diego event. there were SO many of us! i waited in line for over 2hours to sit in the car and as i got to the front, they took the car away to do the 10 test drives. they took over an hour. with hundreds and hundreds of reservationists, they would NEVER all be able to go on test drives!

but, they did give every attendee a free ticket for teh raffle and if you bought more tix (at $10 each), the $$ went to the boys and girls club... so that was good.

[randyd]

I'll be there, hopefully with my wife.

[Aptera#1434]

Aptera forum name tags?

It would be neat to see whom from this forum are attending this event.

[motoxo]

i'm going! (and i look just like my avatar. :p)

i think we'll all be impatiently waiting in line to sit/ride in it. ... it doesn't really matter if we are apteraforum members or not. strike up a conversation with your line mate regardless.

i might try twittering the event.

[A1phaGeek]

i'm going! (and i look just like my avatar. :p)

i think we'll all be impatiently waiting in line to sit/ride in it. ... it doesn't really matter if we are apteraforum members or not. strike up a conversation with your line mate regardless.

i might try twittering the event.

What is your twitter info? PM would be fine if you don't want to post it.

Mine's a1phageek (surprising I know) if anyone wants it.

I'd look up your username, but I'm at my office and I block twitter so I stay more productive. (I should block this forum also, but I have not had the will power to do so)

[maestronius]

In the San Diego event, they asked you to put your name and reservation number on a name tag. Whenever I talked to an Aptera employee, I noticed all of them looking to see what my number was. I have read in this forum that some were disappointed that they weren't warned about this and didn't remember their number offhand.

Enjoy the event, and don't stand too close to the P.A. system (Marques likes to yell into the mic).

[Gena]

I have read in this forum that some were disappointed that they weren't warned about this and didn't remember their number offhand.

honestly, i was surprised that people didn't know their # when they went. I made SURE to have it...

[Aptera#1434]

Excellent tip guys! I remember my number very well, but I'm extremely excited to get my Aptera! And my wife gave me the go-ahead to purchase it! (of course I need to test drive it first)

[Aptera#1434]

Vehicles are the Stanford Shopping Center located right by the Polo Store, facing Palo Alto and El Camino.

Heading there now!:thumbsup:

[dmtaub]

While Gary's stuff would be nice to know, most of it seems either unimportant or obvious to me. All I really care about is my two initial questions:

* Is the range now 200 miles, and if so, is that standard?
* What's the approximate DoD on the battery pack? Don't need exact numbers -- just is it in the "90%" range, the "70%" range, the "50%" range, or whatnot.


Karen,

I saw in the latest wired article that it said they expect a 6 year battery life. That was about as detailed at we got. Guess we could do the math from there based on average miles a person drives over the course of a year, but you are the better mathematician... I'm just a banker.

[KarenRei]

If they're only expecting six years, and they're using a non-cobalt-based pack... I really don't know how they're getting that. No pack cooling? 95-100% DoD? Using 90%+ capacity as the cutoff for determining when the pack is bad instead of the typical 80%? I really don't know.

[Rat]

I just got back from the Stanford Shopping Center event. I missed being one of 20 guest riders by 1 (ticket #1434 instead of 1433) so I came home early. I got a poster, though.

Several things I noticed: at first it didn't look like there was as much cargo space as I had expected, but the employee at the model (PP6) said that prototype had a side hinged door (which he wasn't allowed to open, as people would become confused if they saw it that way) whereas the production model will be hinged on top and open like a normal trunk or hatchback. He said also that the lower battery pack will almost double the cargo space over what you see in the prototype, so that was a relief.

The fairing around the rear wheel was very different on the PP6 (all black right up to the body) from that on the PP4 (only black on the small rearward piece). It also comes down lower than I thought. If you back into a spot where there is a curb, you'll have to be careful. Measuring by my hand, only about 4-1/2 to 5" at the wheel, maybe 7 or 8 inches at the rearmost point. I think the PP6 one was a temporary kludge for some reason.

As we were leaving both Apteras that were giving test rides zipped right by us in the shopping center. The second one squealed its tires coming around the turn. It was definitely showing its stuff to whoever the lucky rider was. (My wife scowled disapprovingly.) It seemed to corner just fine from outward appearances.

There were well over 200 people there. I know the raffle tickets (for the test rides) ranged from the high 1300s to the high 1600s so I assume it was around 300, and that was with only one ticket per deposit, so couples or families would multiply that number. I was bummed because Aptera1434 was there with his wife and they gave them two tickets for one deposit! If I had missed out on the ride by one number on the high side instead of the low side I'd be apoplectic now, but it wouldn't have made any difference in my case as I would not have gotten the ride if they'd given me the next number up for my wife. It was fun meeting and chatting with Aptera1434 anyway.

We had a nice dinner at the Palo Alto Creamery - and very yummy milkshakes. Trying to find the location was a pain. It was not where the map indicated, nor where Security directed us, but we eventually found it. You'd think Security would do a better job (they had a guy stationed right there) or Aptera would tell them better where to direct people. I'll think of more, but I figured getting an early post to whet your appetite is more important for now.

[speculawyer]

Here is my report . . . my camera seems broken :( so no pics from me.

There seemed to be about 500+ or so people that showed up. Quite the silicon valley geek crowd. A lot of neck beards and geeky T-shirts. A bunch of eco vehicles too . . . An El City Car, a Tesla Roadster, some Honda Insights (the original version), a converted Prius, a Th!nk Neighbor, an electric bicycle, etc. Around 300 depositors signed up for a raffle where they gave out some T-shirts and about 10 rides in the Aptera.

They had 3 different models there the old Zen, the FWD model with the nice interior, and another FWD model that had kind of an bloated black belly where they put the batteries in real low. They said that bloated black belly was just for testing new new suspension versions. The Apteras looked pretty much as I expected except there was less trunk space than I expected. I guess some of that is due to them using that space for batteries in some versions. It is kinda disappointing that they still haven't shown one with roll-down windows. Not that I care that much, but it is supposed to be in the final version so it would be nice to see it ready to go.

Price is still quote at $25K to $45K but $25K is for the gas version. They are shooting for around $30K for the 2e. However, the solar panel, the navigation system, and the rear view camera will all be extra. So it sounds like more formerly standard features are becoming optional pay extra features. :(

Shipping has now slipped to November.

I wasn't going to ask who the suppliers were but I asked if they had chosen the battery, motor, and controller suppliers for the 2e. They said yes and that the final decision on those was made a while back. (You know who I think the motor/controller supplier is.) I asked two different people to be sure (Steve & Marques).

Overall, it seems like it is all coming together. They mainly seem to be optimizing, making it more manufacturable, simplifying it, etc. This is all good since in the end it is the execution that really matters, not how many bells & whistles you have.

If companies can built & sell NEVs for a little over $10k, they should be able to make this for $30K. It is about the same size as an NEV, but has a nice enclosed body, airbags, a bigger & more expensive battery pack, heating/cooling system, and a bigger motor & controller. But the rest isn't that much different from an NEV (headlights, indicator lights, brake lights, wheels, brakes, steering, charger, seatbelts, mirrors, windshield wiper, etc.). Anyway, that makes me feel this is real . . . and that is a good feeling considering how much vaporware exists in the EV biz.

Oh . . . the holder of the #1 on the waiting list is Bill Gross of IdeaLab.

[imlucid]

That was fun! Definitely an adjustment getting into one of these guys but am looking forward to a testdrive.

[speculawyer]

That was fun! Definitely an adjustment getting into one of these guys but am looking forward to a testdrive.

Yeah, it was funny . . . I was asking Steve some questions while he was standing there by one of the Apteras and while he answered questions, he constantly was doing that cop move where you put your hand at the the top of the door jamb so people don't smack their head getting into the Aptera. He does it so often it is like second nature for him.

[greenguy]

Is that what I just heard, slipping into November could mean slipping into Summer 2010 just as easily.

Has the additional $75m they are trying to raise have something to do with the delay. I have patience and can wait as long as it takes, but I know many of you are very impatient from what I have been reading.:aptera: :love0002: :thumbsup:

[imlucid]

I've got some pictures of the event but will have to post one more time to get around the board limits.

[motoxo]

i was there.

i had fun and i think you can check out my flickr photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/motoxo/

i made my friend go with me so he had to sit in the seat too.

p.s. steve f was AMAZINGLY nice to talk to. such a warm and generous person.

[imlucid]

Yeah, it was funny . . . I was asking Steve some questions while he was standing there by one of the Apteras and while he answered questions, he constantly was doing that cop move where you put your hand at the the top of the door jamb so people don't smack their head getting into the Aptera. He does it so often it is like second nature for him.

Yeah that was the car I got into.

Here's some pictures I took of the event:

http://gallery.me.com/imlucid#100554

[Rat]

When I asked about service in the Bay Area, all the fellow (a young guy, not one of the execs) would say was that they were taking care of it and of course they had to have a full network covering everywhere because they intended to sell nationwide. That should be good news for you out-of-staters. Of course he didn't say when they envisioned that nationwide network. I asked about a few other minor things, or started to, but every time I did I heard the same thing in several variations, "That hasn't been decided" or "The production model is going to be different from the prototype" or "They're still refining it."

I sat in the PP4 and I was surprised at how close and tight the wheel pods looked from inside. The guy said the wheels on the PP6 were in a little tighter. But from outside, both looked pretty darned wide. My wife commented on how much better the black underside (on PP6) looked than the white one (PP4), because road tar and grime would be splattered up all over it in real use. You'd constantly be washing off the bottom if it's white underneath. Neither one of us had any trouble getting in and out or fitting. The seat was reasonably comfortable I guess, but not as good as my Volvo. The bright green color for the PP6 seats was ugly IMO (and my wife's). I forgot to check visibility, but I seem to recall hearing that the production model will have bigger/different windows and of course the backup camera, so it probably wouldn't have done much good.

[jsnable]

I have a few random tidbits to add. One should be quite obvious to those following the Aptera story by now - there are certain things you're just not going to find out yet! I was already sold on the concept and am happy to wait to see what the final version will be. Even more sold now after seeing the vehicle and talking to some of the employees.

I did ask Paul about when we could see the "production intent" model; summer is a reasonable timeframe. Also listened to an interesting exchange between him and someone from CalCars (plug-in hybrid advocates) about battery capacity, Wh/mile, etc. - that's when he got the "I can't tell you that" sort of grin. The 17-22 kWh battery pack specified in the latest brochure does not seem to be a typo though... V2G capability is already built-in.

Also chatted with Marques a bit as well - sounds like the Stanford Mall area would indeed be a nice spot for the first Bay Area dealership. There are some empty car dealerships next to Tesla... Color for first Apteras will be white, but later on other colors will be available (he is pushing for a black one - would be sharp). Factoid of the day would be that windshields are coming from PPG. The use of high quality Tier 1 suppliers makes me feel really good about what Aptera is doing.

Last observation is just how cool the 2e is (and though I do have an Insight, I don't have a neck beard). It was really great seeing them cruise around on the test rides. They are super quiet from the outside - much different sound than Tim's 914 conversion which uses the Azure AC24 motor (http://914ev.blogspot.com/index.html). Hmmm....

Last but not least, it looks like I'm getting the first one in the area - sweet! Looking forward to it...

Jay

[speculawyer]

Yeah that was the car I got into.

Here's some pictures I took of the event:

http://gallery.me.com/imlucid#100554

Here is the model with the bloated black underbelly:

http://gallery.me.com/imlucid/100554/KEV_1222/web.jpg

Apparently this is the one that handles really well because it has the batteries mostly down in the bottom there for the low center-of-gravity. But they indicated to me that the production version would not look like that.

I didn't mind how it looked . . . and if that helped make it cheaper that would be fine with me. I am most concerned that they be able to manufacture this thing at a low cost.

[Bill2056]

After sitting in the vehicles I had the opportunity to chat with Paul Wilbur about many topics. He is really a nice person to talk with and was remarkably open and candid. The topic I was most interested in was how they are coming on real crash testing of the vehicle. He said they have already completed several of the most important tests on real vehicles and that the Aptera has passed them with flying colors. For example, it exceeded the roof crush test by more than 5 times the industry standard!!!! The picture they showed us some time ago of 8 guys standing on top of an aptera shell was actually taken on the shell AFTER it had recovered from the 5X crush test!!! It has also passed the side impact test and exceeded industry requirements by more than 2 times!!! He says they are not at all concerned about passing any of the industry standard crash tests - the composite shell is extremely strong and lightweight and with the multiple air bags in this vehicle it may end up being one of the safest vehicles in the industry. Another thing he mentioned is that they are doing some very innovative work with the seat belts that they think will make Aptera a true leader in vehicle safety - possibly another significant contribution to the industry coming from a little innovative startup. Obviously more detailed information will be made available when the testing is done but this already sounds very encouraging to me.

[KarenRei]

And that's the thing... regulations are clamping down on enclosed three wheelers as though they're *less* safe than even two wheelers, while cars like the Aptera are probably notably safer than most four wheelers.

You know, if Aptera handled lobbying well enough (which, In My Humble Estimation, would probably take some of that $75M that they're trying to raise), it could work to a huge advantage. Namely, if they could succeed in making it so that laws don't limit what people can do with enclosed three wheelers, but rather, making it so that they have to meet the sort of safety standards that Aptera already meets. Now *that* would be great ;)

[NmGfan]

My wife and I made it to Stanford about 7:30 while the ride raffle was going so we had pretty much wide open access to PP6 and a very short 3 person wait for PP4. The whole event was powered by a honda generator including charging the test ride vehicles (2e burns gasoline while parked). I found the headroom in PP6 to be barely serviceable with about 1/2" of clearance (in NmG I have about 1-1/2"), so maybe a little more will be available in the next iteration. PP4 headroom was closer to 1". The door opening height improvement is good, but I still hit my head when entering the passenger side of PP6. I entered backside first in the seat and swung my legs over the sill and thump into the top. The high sill is a heel catcher, so something other than the body color (flat black) in the form of a protective plate might help minimize the scuffing. My wife (5' tall) commented that she had trouble seeing the narrower front wheels from the driver seat, so if you are short in the saddle that could be a bit of a problem. Finally, for a two seat vehicle, it is not small, as in one fills a standard parking space completely. It is much larger than an RX-7 (any year) but has a similar spatial feel inside. I picked up a couple of posters and got the last brochure which specifies the 17-22 kWh battery pack, 200mpge, and 100 mile range; seemed to match PP6 with its fat underbelly. Pictures tomorrow...
:happy0025:

[KarenRei]

My wife (5' tall) commented that she had trouble seeing the narrower front wheels from the driver seat, so if you are short in the saddle that could be a bit of a problem

Can she see the wheels in her current car?

[iwannaptera]

Can she see the wheels in her current car?
cute. but in a normal car, you know that the wheels are under the outer edges of the hood that you can see. In the aptera, you don't have that sort of visual cue unless you can at least see the tops of the wheel pods.

[Matthijs]

Price is still quote at $25K to $45K but $25K is for the gas version. They are shooting for around $30K for the 2e.

Hmmm little disappointed here. I am no expert but based on costs for the (little) batterypack (Can not be in the tens of thousands) and low retail price of the Azure Dynamics parts, I was convinced Aptera could bring the (base) 2e to market for $25K

[DonC]

Hmmm little disappointed here. I am no expert but based on costs for the (little) batterypack (Can not be in the tens of thousands) and low retail price of the Azure Dynamics parts, I was convinced Aptera could bring the (base) 2e to market for $25K
My guess is that originally that was Aptera's guess as well. Then reality set in and the price went up. This is completely predictable. You simply can't price things like you are doing because the integration costs are very high, but FWIW it's the way every start up does it, which is why the first estimated prices are always too low.

Hopefully they'll be able to get the car out with a price in the low 30s'. With the rebate that will put the final price near or below $30K. If it starts drifting much above $32K-$33K you may start seeing resistance. (This gives a $10K "look at me" premium over the Prius). Keep in mind that Aptera has already raised the price considerably by making standard features options. That's actually smart because consumers are more willing to accept price increases if it's done this way.

[futura]

... but later on other colors will be available (he is pushing for a black one - would be sharp). ...Woohoo! That would make me happy.

[Aptera#1434]

My wife and I went to the show. At first, my wife seemed to be a bit luke-warm to the idea of owning the Aptera. But after standing in line and finally getting to sit behind the steering wheel, she is really excited to own one now!

I enjoyed meeting "Rat" and his wife. Sorry about the two raffle tickets Rat. I guess we received two tickets since we arrived at the show at different times and checked in separately. Unfortunately, neither ticket was a test ride winnner :-(

I am impressed with the fit a finish of the Aptera. At 6'2", I didn't have any problems with roof height or leg room. I believe one of the reps said the final version could accomadate a 6'5"-6'8" person. Getting into the vehicle wasn't a problem. Although, a better adjustable steering wheel will be coming, they tell me and definately needed. I would say getting into the vehicle is similar to a sports car. One must be aware or the roof line and door so as not to bump your head.

I took some pictures, but they aren't worthy enough to post. Most of the key pictures are already on this forum now.

I was amazed at how genuinely warm the Aptera folks were to questions and their interaction with the public was sincere. Steve, Marques, and Chris really fielded the questions well (at least the one's they could answer officially).

Some of my questions have been answered both in person at the show at on this forum. Most of the forum folks that were at the show have posted them and beat me to the punch! However, I did manage to find a few more tidbits to share:

Aptera horn: I managed to get the reps to sound it-definately not powerful enough and a bit wimpy.

Tires: Definately will be Michelin "green", but the exact model couldn't be disclosed.

Wheels: Stock will be steel. The reason is to keep production costs down.

Windows: They will definately be electric full roll down type, both passenger and driver side. Power window mechanisums are lighter than manual roll type they said.

Seats: Final design isn't decided yet.

Cargo space: It will double what is indicated in the photos.

Interior dome lights: LED type.

Jack points: There are several points on the vehicle to be able to service the tires.

Spare tire: Nope. But you will get a canister. Turn it one way, and you get nitrogen. Turn a valve the other way and you will get some goo to fill a hole in the tire.

Fast charging: cannot be disclosed yet.

Overall- the show was a great tool to help me evaluate the vehicle visually(granted it wasn't the final model) and touching it/sitting in it was cool!

[randyd]

Last but not least, it looks like I'm getting the first one in the area - sweet! Looking forward to it...

Jay

The lowest reservation number I saw was 86. You have them beat by a mile. :)

[randyd]

If they're only expecting six years, and they're using a non-cobalt-based pack... I really don't know how they're getting that. No pack cooling? 95-100% DoD? Using 90%+ capacity as the cutoff for determining when the pack is bad instead of the typical 80%? I really don't know.

I spent my last 30 minutes at the event hanging with President Paul with a few other fans. He didn't swear me to secrecy so here are a few interesting remarks:


6 year battery warranty is the plan. Their suppliers have signed up to that.
The 100 mile range with two passengers, 250 lbs of cargo, full-time AC, etc. will be at the end of year 6.
At the end of year 6, they expect a 20% loss of battery capacity
The battery alone represents about half of their cost of building the 2e. He also threw out $10k casually.
He declined to answer the DoD question
4 separate battery suppliers have been qualified: 2 using cylindrical cells, 2 using prismatic (flat, rectangular) batteries. (would not say who)
4-6 other battery suppliers are being qualified.
No supercaps will be used. "Not needed thanks to the newer battery technology."
Paul has personally seen 0.85g side force when turning, as measured using his iPhone in the passenger seat. :)


I found President Paul to be a great advocate for the car and the company. Not only was he charismatic and personable, but he consistently got his agenda items covered while deftly avoiding or deflecting questions about proprietary subjects. :thumbsup:

[KarenRei]

Fast charging: cannot be disclosed yet.

" :) ?" said the Karen.

[randyd]

" :) ?" said the Karen.

Fast charging, as in 5-10 minutes from "empty" to "full" cannot be disclosed yet. But it is not going to be a battery swap scheme. Paul said that Shai Agassi is a smart guy but he has it all wrong this time, then spent 5 minutes pointing out all the ludicrous aspects of the "Better Place" plan.[Quote] Who is going to install robotic arms and swap $10,000 batteries in order to sell $1.50 worth of electricity?

Paul was certain 5-10 minute charging would happen some day, but probably not in 5 years.

He joked about how one lab demonstrated 5 minute charging by allowing the cell being charged to reach 400 C, enough to melt Aluminum.

He did think that 30 minute charging would be fast enough for lots of people on cross-country trips.

[NmGfan]

Can she see the wheels in her current car?

Like you, she can't see the front wheels of any automobiles from the drivers seat, but she can see both front corners of the hood and fenders on all our vehicles. I suppose the inference (being short made it difficult to see the front wheels) was a little too vague about the value of seeing the right and left front corners of the vehicle, so in the future I'll be a lot more explicit to help reduce unnecessarily snide posts from the Moderator ++ on the forum.
:character0012:

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Tires: Definately will be Michelin "green", but the exact model couldn't be disclosed.

So they are going to use Michelin HydroEdge Green X tires, are they?

http://www.tirerack.com/it/it_09spr/index.jsp

Or maybe "MICHELIN® Energy Saver All-Season"?

[KarenRei]

Paul said that Shai Agassi is a smart guy but he has it all wrong this time, then spent 5 minutes pointing out all the ludicrous aspects of the "Better Place" plan.

God, I love these people ;)

He did think that 30 minute charging would be fast enough for lots of people on cross-country trips.

Probably. Absolutely for me (I plan to regularly go cross country even if I have to accept a lot worse*), but even from a mass market perspective, I bet you could probably convince a quarter of Americans to go all-electric if it was 30 minute stops every two or three hours**. And that's a darned lot of people.

* I'm not exactly your average consumer; I freely admit that. ;)
** Contingent on sufficient charging stations and the ability to make a convincing ROI argument re. the vehicle's price versus savings. Most people are picky that way ;)

[KarenRei]

Like you, she can't see the front wheels of any automobiles from the drivers seat, but she can see both front corners of the hood and fenders on all our vehicles. I suppose the inference (being short made it difficult to see the front wheels) was a little too vague about the value of seeing the right and left front corners of the vehicle, so in the future I'll be a lot more explicit to help reduce unnecessarily snide posts from the Moderator ++ on the forum.
:character0012:

No harm meant. ;) I hope you see the point I was trying to get at, though: that most people can't see their tires, either. We don't drive based on where we see things contacting the road; we develop a "comfort zone" around our vehicles (like we do with our own body), and when anything falls within that comfort zone, we adjust our behavior to try to remedy the situation. Now, the further toward key points (wheel-ground contact, the perimeter of the vehicle, etc) you can see, the better your ability to judge, to be sure. But we already deal with a huge lack of information in our present vehicles.

And a lot of people willingly choose style trends that deliberately reduce their lack of information. I'm sure that even a short Aptera driver in the worst possible configuration will have far more information available to their senses than the average SUV driver.

[hill]

Hi,



So they are going to use Michelin HydroEdge Green X tires, are they?

http://www.tirerack.com/it/it_09spr/index.jsp



The hydroedges were the best tire I ever bought ... whether I'm talking rolling resistance, ride, or (best of all) wear. Our '04 Prius has about 70K miles on 'em & you can hardly tell they're not new.

[Aptera#1434]

Well, Marques didn't mention the exact model tire(said he couldn't disclose it yet), but at least we know the brand, Michelin with an excellent quality history.

[AZDDF.PK]

[QUOTE=jsnable]...It was really great seeing them cruise around on the test rides. They are super quiet from the outside - much different sound than Tim's 914 conversion which uses the Azure AC24 motor (http://914ev.blogspot.com/index.html). Hmmm....

Jay[/QUOTE

It makes one wonder if Tim failed to use the AT 1200 gearbox. From speculawyers pics it looks like Aptera is using the AT1200 gearbox as well as the AC24ls motor and DMOC 445 controller.

http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=2568

Electromotive website shows the AT1200 gearbox and states:

Features:
Quiet operation, precision high quality gears

http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acgearbox.shtml

hmm...

Go Aptera!:love0002:

[jsnable]

Very good point - Tim did indeed use the Porsche gearbox, although I think those videos were shot after he had it rebuilt (not sure though). In any case, the 2e was quiet and quick, no matter what it's using!

Jay