Will the Aptera all-electric version need oil changes?

[butter]

Hi everybody,

Please let me warn you first that this is a very very very very stupid question. Yes, I know. It is stupid. It is a simple question and probably everyone else reading the boards has known the answer since they were 10. But I know *nothing* about cars, NOTHING. I am one of those perfect customers that lube chain stores could totally easily rip off.

Okay, so having admitted all of that and hopefully avoiding subsequent comments like "that's so obvious" or "duh!" -- this is my stupid stupid stupid question:

Will the Aptera all-electric version need oil changes? Will it need ANYTHING in terms of regular maintenance that my current Corolla gets? (Besides really really obvious non-mechanical/electrical things like refilling windshield wiper fluid.)

I also ask this because I am incredibly lax in getting my poor little car regular oil changes, and if the Aptera didn't need 'em, that would be one less thing (however trivial) to worry about.

Non mechanically yours,
Amy

[palmer_md]

The EV version will not need oil changes as regularly as the car you are driving today. There are still lubrication points on the suspension and steering system, and they will need to be maintained with some type of lubricant. There is also the possibility that there is a gearbox in the rear drive train. I cant tell from the photos or descriptions, but it is possible that they are only using the belt and pullys to gear the motor down for the wheel. It is also possible that there is a small gearbox between the motor and the pully. If there is a gearbox than this oil will need to be changed as well. It will need to be changed at about the rate of the "rear end" of an older car with a straght axle or the rate of the transmission lubricant of a manual transmission car. In other words its not that often but does need to be maintained.

Brakes also have to be maintained, but due to regenerative braking and the fact that the car is so light, this maintenance is also less frequent than your current car.

Less maintenance is one of the big benefits of EV driving.

The other "maintenance" item is the battery pack. In my EV I view this as a maintenance item. My battery pack needs to be replaced every 5 years at a cost of $1000. This means $200/year in "maintenance" but I eliminated all the oil changes, radiator flushes and other maintenance on my ICE. The newer technology batteries in the Aptera should have a longer life, but they have not announced this information yet. This is one of the items I eagerly await hearing about.

Quan may have more insight into the drive train having seen the car in person.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[MegaAutoBit]

It’s not a stupid question, I am sure many people with a similar background would have the same line of questioning when considering a vehicle like the Aptera.

If we are only discussing the ALL-ELECTRIC Aptera, then the only maintenance that should be required would be related to your tires. The usual thing, balancing and rotating every 10,000 miles; and replacing when required. There are other components that need to be routinely monitored like brakes, suspension, and wheel alignment. With that said, Aptera will recommend a maintenance schedule for the vehicle, like every 6 months; primarily for inspection reasons, to check all the electrical systems, and mechanical components on the vehicle. As far as actual maintenance goes, it should require very little. Now the hybrid version is a little different, still however now where near the same type of maintenance requirements that a typical vehicle requires.

[butter]

Thank you, Mike and MegaAutoBit, very very much!

Your responses are very helpful and informative. The idea of replacing the battery (for the all-electric, which is the version I would like to get) approx. every 5 years for approx. $1000 seems painful at first glance, but when you do break it down to about $200 a year, that's a great number when one considers the money saved in never having to buy gasoline ever again.

YAY!
Loving the Aptera more and more and more,
Amy #1294

[KarenRei]

The batteries will almost certainly cost a lot more than $1,000. But you should never need to replace them; they're lithium phosphate, which should outlive the car. I suppose it's possible you could eventually get terminal corrosion, but the internal chemistry is very stable.

As for oil: there is no motor oil in the Typ-1e, so you never need to change motor oil. There is one belt, no transmission, no radiator, no alternator, no muffler, and so on. Electric drivetrains are incredibly simple. Now, there is grease, of course, but when was the last time you had to change the grease on your existing car's axles? :)

[butter]

Wow. I'm in love. Even more than before, if that were possible.

[thimel]

Karen,

In many posts you have stated that the batteries will be lithium phosphate. The official Aptera web site says they are still evaluating several technologies (unstated what they are) and they have not decided yet. Is there information directly attributable to Aptera on the battery technology or is lithium phosphate just someone's guess because it presently looks the best?

In a similar vein, Aptera only ever says the skin will be "composite." Posts from many different people have assumed this means fiber glass or carbon fiber or foam core. I'm not sure there are any real facts out there or if these are just guesses (perhaps educated from looking at the appearance of the car). Any for sure knowledge out there?

[KarenRei]

Batteries: Yes, they plan on using lithium phosphate. Example:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-01-10-aptera_N.htm

No manufacturer has been announced yet. I think I ran into one article that said they're trying to pick between two different suppliers.

Composites: Initially, I had assumed carbon fiber composites, since I had seen that mentioned on some other, unofficial sites. There's not much data here. The best information available is an old article about the Mk0 that says they're planning to use a mix of fiberglass, carbon fiber, and kevlar composites.

Lately, there's been some discussion on this, and I find the arguments that most of the body is a fiberglass/foam composite shell compelling.

[Aptera1171]

Aside from the electric motor, which I admit to having no real knowledge of, I see the Aptera as a cross between a car and a motorcycle. For instance,

1. The single rear wheel will be a lot like a motorcycle. Removing it probably will require a motorcycle-type jack. In many years of riding, I've had a couple of rear tire blowouts. Neither one was very dangerous because there was so much rubber to ride on. But changing the rear tire wasn't easy. Either carry fix-a-flat or use one of the run-flat tires. Expect to pay more for installing the rear tire when it needs replacement.

2. On motorcycles, the belt (or chain on the ones I've had) requires occasional inspection, adjustment and replacement. I've only had chain and shaft drive bikes so I'm not experienced here, but it seems the belt would need to be watched for stretching, slipping, etc. I'd like to know more about the expected life of the drive belt.

3. Not really a maintenance item, but when I've called California State Auto Association (Northern, not Southern), they've refused to assist in any way with roadside help for motorcycles. I've heard the Southern California Auto Association does assist with motorcycles. I'm interested in knowing how CSAA will treat my Aptera.

I would expect that there will be less maintenance, but each task may be more expensive.

[3-4-me]

Aside from the electric motor, which I admit to having no real knowledge of, I see the Aptera as a cross between a car and a motorcycle. For instance,

1. The single rear wheel will be a lot like a motorcycle. Removing it probably will require a motorcycle-type jack. In many years of riding, I've had a couple of rear tire blowouts. Neither one was very dangerous because there was so much rubber to ride on. But changing the rear tire wasn't easy. Either carry fix-a-flat or use one of the run-flat tires. Expect to pay more for installing the rear tire when it needs replacement.

2. On motorcycles, the belt (or chain on the ones I've had) requires occasional inspection, adjustment and replacement. I've only had chain and shaft drive bikes so I'm not experienced here, but it seems the belt would need to be watched for stretching, slipping, etc. I'd like to know more about the expected life of the drive belt.

3. Not really a maintenance item, but when I've called California State Auto Association (Northern, not Southern), they've refused to assist in any way with roadside help for motorcycles. I've heard the Southern California Auto Association does assist with motorcycles. I'm interested in knowing how CSAA will treat my Aptera.

I would expect that there will be less maintenance, but each task may be more expensive.

If you look at the PM video, theres is a great shot of the rear drive unit. It uses a single side swingarm with a regular automobile wheel and tire. (I'm betting it's the same as the fronts.)
I have a 2+1 3wheeler and am familiar with lifting and working on it.
The sleek body is the biggest hurdle I see in jacking the Aptera up. It will have to have a jack point built in to receive the jack.

The drive belt appears to be a cogged belt similar to a timing belt on an overhead cam engine, only bigger.
Timing belts are usually good for ~70k miles without adjustment (They have tensioners though).

AAA offers motorcycle assistance. I ride, but have never needed to use it.
I don't see why a flatbed towtruck would have a problem towing the Aptera.

[akuehnemund]

Aptera1171 is correct: The Northern California chapter of CSAA (for lack of a better word) does NOT provide road assistance to motorcycles. The SoCal chapter of CSAA does. I have had a few discussions with CSAA (NorCal) over this and they keep saying they may reevaluate their position and possibly offer it in the future - but, so far, they refuse to. It's ridiculous and makes me not want to renew my membership with them every year. Unfortunately, I also own a car and would like to be covered in the event something happens. Because of NorCal CSAA's ignorance I end up spending more money every year on getting motorcycle coverage through Bros. Club.

[LQUAN]

Sorry folks. I was out on vacation for 2 weeks.

Answering Butter question on Aptera maintainance cost...

There is no oil change required on Aptera Type-1e. The brake fluid may need to be flushed every 2 or 3 years in humid climate - but no one ever do this on their conventional cars. I flush my brake fluid once every 3 years. (You should never attempt to do your own brake fluid flushing if you don't know how.) Aptera does not have any gear box; no gear oil to change. The wheel bearing grease may need repacking every 5 years - but no one ever do this on their conventional cars. I did it once on my first car and strongly believe that wheel bearing grease lasts the life time of the car. Steering gear box grease is the same - it should last the life time of the car. If Atera is using battery such as A123 (lithium ferrite phosphate or commonly know as lithium phosphase), it should outlast the car. All lightings on Aptera are LEDs; therefore, they last forever - except for the headlights. Tires may need to be replaced more often than conventional car. If I understand correctly, to achieve high efficiency, these tires are pressurized around 55psi. At that kind of pressure they usually last around 20,000 to 25,000 miles - just like the Prius and Insight. Fortunately, these small tires are cheaper than conventional cars' tires, not to mention there are only 3 to buy. You just to charge every 1 or 2 day, add windshield washer fluid once in a while, and go :)

[Matthijs]

You just to charge every 1 or 2 day, add windshield washer fluid once in a while, and go.

I know it's just a simple quote but I just love the sound of it! :D

[butter]

Hi LQuan,

I was wondering where you went! Thanks so much for your detailed response -- this gives me a very good idea of how much less I'll have to worry about maintenance, compared to my current Corolla (which I neglect to care for anyway)...

Part of the reason I hate getting oil changes is I always feel like I'm a sitting target for getting ripped off because I basically know nothing about cars. This is one less stressful routine I'll have to worry about. Heh.

[IanO]

Tires may need to be replaced more often than conventional car. If I understand correctly, to achieve high efficiency, these tires are pressurized around 55psi. At that kind of pressure they usually last around 20,000 to 25,000 miles - just like the Prius and Insight.

I was under the impression that they wore more quickly on the Prius because they were under-specified due to the high weight of the car (due to steel frame and batteries). Do the Potenzas also wear more quickly on the much lighter Insight?

I figured tire wear would not be a problem on the very light Aptera.

[jsnable]

I recently replaced the original tires on my Insight at ~60,000 miles (and typically ran them around 50 psi). Don't know about the Prius though...

Jay

I was under the impression that they wore more quickly on the Prius because they were under-specified due to the high weight of the car (due to steel frame and batteries). Do the Potenzas also wear more quickly on the much lighter Insight?

I figured tire wear would not be a problem on the very light Aptera.

[Aptera 1103]

I did the same on my Insight at about 40k miles, normally at 50 psi as well. Took the car to Sacramento and back for work. They pay mileage for work trips. It paid for my gas and four new tires as well!

If I use the Aptera for work I may never have an operating cost :D

[LQUAN]

Hi butter,

I went to Vietnam and Cambodia. Just got to see Ha Long Bay near Hanoi. Ha Long has always been on top of the voting list for the new 7-wonders of the world. It is absolutely breath taking. And of course, Angkor Wat near Siem Reap. I had been to the Vatican many years ago, but I didn't know Angkor Wat is still the largest religious monument in the world. The details devoted to building that site is unbelievable.

Back to Aptera... I know that the Prius needs to replace its tires every 20,000 or so because my sister has one. I was unsured about the Insight. I guess tires on the Insight lasts longer because it is much lighter than the Prius. If tires on the Insight lasts around 50,000 miles, then they will last longer on Aptera due to its light weight.

The other part that will probably wear out fast is the driving belt. The belt carries the moving load of the car and it is also used for regenerative braking. Varying pushing and pulling force on that belt will kill it fast. I remember seing a photo taken from under the rear wheel housing somewhere on the web. This photo shows the entire drive train. Let me try to find it again and post it here.

[3-4-me]

The PM video shows the rear drive out of the car.
I think the drive belt and pulleys are visible.
The belt looks like a cogged timing belt to me.
On an engine, there good for around 70K miles.
Lots more heat, and higher RPM's on the engine too.

[c0mp13x]

Re: the Aptera rear drive belt...

I think 3-4-me is right, the belt should last ~70,000 miles or more. Harley-Davidson has had belt drive on their motorcycles for years and they are reported to last over 100,000 miles. For a motorcycle, that is typically greater than the life of the bike. Granted, the Aptera is heavier than a 2 wheeled Harley, but ~70k sounds like a good estimate for the Aptera. Harleys are way more torquey than most motorcycles, emulating the type of torque and stress characteristics of an electric motor driven vehicle.

Harley has had belt driven motorcycles for almost 20 years and they have been very reliable. Belt drive offers the advantages of quieter operation and low maintenance (no lube and the mess of lube), compared to chain driven motorcycles.

Hey LQUAN is this the rear belt drive picture you were looking for?

http://www.aptera.com/images/6.jpg

:D

[davidrools]

Just to throw in my two cents regarding potential belt life: That thing looks beefy and kevlar reinforced unlike a typical timing belt. But timing belts carry a much lighter load since they're just responsible for turning cams, not propelling the vehicle.
Compared to belt drive motorcycles, though, the aptera makes a bit less power (67hp max equivalent) and much less torque (though it's delivered instantly due to the nature of an electric motor). Belt drives are used on high powered motorcycles (600hp+) without issue. I've seen some recommendations to replace a motorcycle drive belt as often as every 5000 miles, and they cost $100-$200 apiece. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the Aptera belt was good for 10k-100k miles.

In terms of the push-pull concept, it sounds like it makes sense but I don't think it's accurate. The belt will always be in tension regardless of which side it's being pulled from (accelerating or regen braking). The top side will be in higher tension for all cases except when reversing. So I don't think it would last much if at all shorter than a motorcycle drive belt - probably much longer due to the much less power transfer it's responsible for.

[3-4-me]

Nice pull on the picture c0mp13x
The rear drive looks like a well engineered piece.
The gear reduction should lessen the load on the belt considerably. I can't see the thing failing in 5000 miles.
Conservatively I'd bet they recommend ~ 50k.
We're talking 2 belts, and I can see those costing $100-$200 ea; ouch:eek: .

[KarenRei]

"Ouch", with a ~50k mile replacement? Was that sarcasm? Assuming you drive the average 30-40 miles a day (let's say 35), that's a replacement every 1,428 miles. Let's go with the upper end on price and say $200. That's $4 a month in belt costs. That's *nothing* compared to amortizing the cost of replacing major car engine parts.

[LQUAN]

Thank you for the photo c0mp13x. That is the exact photo I was looking for.

I thought it has one belt, but two belts to share the load will extend their lives greatly. These belts look very beefy to me. They should last at leat 70,000 miles. You guys are right about the price of these belts, they look like they can cost up to $200 a peice. In comparision, my old Camry timing belt costs $80. The good news is that they can be replaced easily if you are used to work on your conventional cars. I just hope those belts are easily accessible.

The suspending arm looks very sturdy and well engineered. I also notice the disc brake has cooling vents, too. Good design.

[3-4-me]

"Ouch", with a ~50k mile replacement? Was that sarcasm? Assuming you drive the average 30-40 miles a day (let's say 35), that's a replacement every 1,428 miles. Let's go with the upper end on price and say $200. That's $4 a month in belt costs. That's *nothing* compared to amortizing the cost of replacing major car engine parts.
It wasn't really sarcasm, it was me thinking to myself:
"If a belt needed replacement, it would probably mean the other one did too. That's like a $400 tune-up."
That is relatively nothing compared to what an ICE vehicle can cost you, but it still makes me say ouch:)
I feel completely confident in changing it myself, so I didn't even consider labor to change it either.

[Matthijs]

Would've the Aptera be a great vehicle for an Inwheel motor? That would simplify the drive train even further. Any thoughts on this option? Maybe for future models. I saw some products from PLM Flightlink but those are still very expensive.

A friend of mine has a BMW F650 motorcycle, and he told me his drivebelt broke ones. Well you can't go anywhere when that happens and it was pretty expensive to replace. I have no exact numbers but I remember he told me it was around 250 euro's including parts.

[LQUAN]

I remember that somebody on this forum has a link to a company that produce inwheelmotors. Their design still has not taken off and still at prototype state. Mainly because without gears or belts as torque multipliers, the motor does not have enough torque to break the car away from static fiction or from standing still. Car with a single inwheelmotor cannot work; however, 4 inwheelmotors may work. Even with 4 inwheelmotors, don't expect neckbreaking speed from 0 to 60 - it's more like 15+ sec from 0 to 60 at the weight of Aptera. And they will drain your battery like crazy!

[basjoos]

That prototype hybrid BMW Mini uses 4 in-wheel electric motors and has a 4 sec 0-60 time and a 200+ miles battery range.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php

[Dubito]

Those in-wheel motors look small/light enough to be used for the front wheels of Aptera. Better handling, regen braking from front wheels too, and all wheel drive for poor weather. Would be nice.

[LQUAN]

They must have used a diffrent type of inwheelmotor that I read about. 160-hp per motor is very impressive. As I suspected, these motors drain battery like crazy. The 200 miles+ range they mentioned does not include continuous stop and go traffic like in Los Angeles. Braking will required battery power because it uses electronic brakes - not mechanical brakes. Stop and go traffic will drain the battery very fast. 200 miles+ mile range is possible with Lithium Polymer, but Lithium Polymer has its own problem that cannot be used in consummer vehicles. These inwheelmotor must be water cooled.

[Dubito]

From the Treehugger article basjoos linked to:
"All braking is performed by the wheel motors acting as very efficient electrical generators which return almost all of the energy back to the battery system. The beauty of this dual-circuit, ultra safe system is that your green conscience can be quite content even when accelerating hard, since you are assured of collecting most of the expended energy when it is time to slow down rapidly."

[Matthijs]

Here are some specs on the inwheel motors from PML but they are still very expensive. Well if you only need one maybe it can be done in future. I also saw small in wheel motors on solorpowered cars and I like the construction. The Aptera would be a very nice platform for InWheel motors in my opinion.

http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html