Aptera on the Carpool (HOV) lane in California

[butter]

I know that on the Aptera website somewhere it's stated that because the Aptera will be a 3-wheeler, it will be legally allowed to use the California carpool lanes -- with or without any Prius-type low-emission sticker permit.

But is this really really true?

Does anybody know?

I tried googling this but I must be braindead, cause I didn't find anything to my satisfaction.

Thanks ahead of time,
Amy

[RoxChkPlusOny]

All motorcycles can ride in HOV lanes. If you go down the freeway, you'll see the diamond and will say carpool. It may describe whether carpool means 2 or 3 people per car, and usually at the bottom will also say "Motorcycles OK"

[c0mp13x]

Well... bad news, good news, good news and then some more bad news. Unless I'm interpreting the CA vehicle code wrong, please let me know...


Bad news 1

Large, fully enclosed 3 wheelers with only a driver in the vehicle, do not generally qualify to drive in the HOV (high-occupancy vehicle) lanes per CA Vehicle Code 21714(a). In addition, 21714(b)(2) also states you shall not split lanes in your Aptera :p.

CA Vehicle Code Sec 21714 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21714.htm)


Good news 1

CA VC 27803(f) confirms that large, fully enclosed 3 wheel drivers and passengers are not required to wear helmets. This section also defines a large, fully enclosed 3 wheel vehicle.

CA Vehicle Code Sec 27803 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27803.htm)


Good news 2

Per CA VC 5205.5(a)(1) the Typ-1e qualifies as a SULEV (Super Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle), and the Typ-1h will probably not qualify. This gets the Typ-1e a sticker and allows that vehicle in the HOV lanes.

CA Vehicle Code Sec 5205.5 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5205_5.htm)


Bad news 2

The very last line of CA VC 5205.5 (which allows low emission vehicles in the HOV lanes), says the whole darn thing is repealed at the end of 2010!

Holy glass slipper Batman, get those stickers before the clock strikes 12!!!

:D

[palmer_md]

Everything looks correct to me with the following addition:

High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) Lane Exemption
California law allows single-occupant use of High Occupancy Vehicle (HOVs) lanes by certain alternative fuel, clean hybrid, and full-electric vehicles. Use of these lanes with only one occupant requires an identification sticker issued by the California Department of Motor Vehicles. Hybrid vehicles are currently limited to a maximum number, and as of February 20, 2007 all of the HOV lane stickers have been issued for hybrids. The program for hybrids is officially closed.

Sorry, but it seems as if all the HOV stickers are out. You'll have to by a used car to get the stickers. Fortunetly for me I dont live in an area that has or needs HOV lanes, so I dont need them except when I drive to LA or SF, and then I usually have passengers, so I can drive in them anyway.

Regards,
Michael

[c0mp13x]

Nice find palmer_md, thanks...

Per the first line of your quoted text, I read that to mean if the Typ1h can qualify as a "clean" hybrid (SULEV), that it will be issued a HOV sticker.

I believe the general statement "The program for hybrids is officially closed" is meant to ward off the thousands of new Prius owners that want to get HOV stickers. Used Prius(es?) with HOV stickers here in SoCal command a premium ($500-$2k) over those cars without the stickers!

:D

[palmer_md]

My understanding was that there are no stickers to be issued to anyone because they were only allotted a number of stickers and they have all been issued. The next item up for interpretation is what do they mean the program is done on Jan 1, 2011. Does that mean that all those cars with the stickers can no longer run in the HOV lanes? This is my interpretation.

The big surprise for me that you found was that a 3 wheeled vehicle is not allowed to run in the HOV lane without high occupancy. Because it is registered as a motorcycle and motorcycles are allowed, I think most of us assumed that it would be allowed in the HOV lanes, but with the code you discovered we wont be able to run in that lane even if we have high occupancy (a passenger) or full occupancy (passenger plus baby in baby seat). What I dont understand is how you can have a code written such that you are completely banned from the HOV lane even if you have full occupancy. Thats what it looks like this code is saying.

Michael

[c0mp13x]

Hmmmm...

Michael, I understand what you are saying, but I always thought the interpretation was that: if you have 2 or more people (babies included!), you qualify for the HOV lane no matter what your driving. But, the code does seem poorly worded and ambiguous. It is strange that the HOV section has to reference the helmet law section for the definition of a large, 3 wheeled vehicle!

In reading the HOV section (5205.5) a little more carefully, the parameter I am more worried about the Typ-1h passing is the ILEV standard. The CA Natural Gas Vehicle Coalition has stated that for all practical purposes, the only vehicles to date that have passed this standard are natural gas or electric. Will the Typ1h be clean enough?

Now.. everyone else in other states, what Vehicle Codes (HOV lanes, helmets etc.) will affect your plans for driving an Aptera?

There's a ton of national research to be done for Steve and the gang...

:)

[jrhubott]

This is quite interesting as the following quote from the Aptera website would appear to be incorrect then.

"You are not required to wear a helmet to drive the Aptera, nor is an endorsement on your drivers license required. Anything in the state of CA with three wheels does not require a motorcycle license and enclosed vehicles with three wheels do not require the use of a helmet. All this and you also get to drive in the HOV lanes!"

One of the reason the Aptera is appealing to me is because I could use the carpool lane for my commute into work. The I5 from San Diego to Oceanside will have a carpool lane the whole way by 2012. The worst area of I805/I5 through Del Mar already has a car pool lane.

We need to clarify if the Aptera 1h or 1e is allowed in the car pool lane with a single occupant and if it is possible to still get a HOV sticker for the 1e. The 1h would not be able to get a HOV sticker as it is a hybrid.

Jason
#1167

[chasmccl]

c0mp13x

Thanks for the occupancy info! From 10 years of commuting in the Bay Area, I have to say that one of my pet PEEVES is counting babies (or anyone too young to drive) as occupants for the HOV lane. The alleged purpose of the legislations was to reduce the # of cars on the road, not to give soccer moms a leg up on getting to day care, which, at times seemed to be its main effect.

'Scuse my rant

Charlie

[Apteratude]

Type 1h hybrid does not qualify for the carpool lane, the type 1e does. No helmets required due to it being an enclosed 3 wheeler over 900 lbs, and seatbelts are required in case anyone was wondering.

[Shooty]

This really disappoints me. My very reason to get an aptera was to utilize the HOV lane as a solo driver.

So, anybody want my aptera? I'm in the 900's on the list...

[KarenRei]

1) Reservations are non-transferrable. You'd have to buy it then sell it.
2) Would a Typ-1e not work for you? The limit on stickers only applies to hybrids.

[butter]

Oh, really? So the *all-electric* truly WOULD be allowed to go in a California carpool lane?

So confused,
Amy

[Shooty]

Karen--

I know. I guess what I'm really saying is, if I can't get motorcycle status in the HOV lane, I'm really not sure if I want it. I drive at least 90 miles roundtrip, often over 100, every day, and I can't afford the potential of being in a bind with the all-electric version. So, I'm seriously considering asking for my deposit back.

[jrhubott]

The HOV sticker expires at the end of 2010 and the e-version is not available till the end of the year and most people won't get it until sometime in 2009 leaves very little time to take advantage of the car pool lane. I'm also thinking this makes that Aptera less appealing to many people including myself.

[butter]

That's a bit of a shame, if people are attracted to the Aptera (and other potentially similar new vehicles) mostly due to its possible HOV status. I say this as an environmentalist who appreciates the emissions-free value of all-electric and hybrid cars; but as someone who lives in hellishly congested Los Angeles, a part of me does feel that it's a little counter-productive, traffic-wise, to allow single-driver vehicles regardless of emissions status to take the HOV lane.

Only 'cause of this: a car is a car, it takes up space, it backs up traffic (unlike motorcycles), so making something like Aptera qualify for HOV status -- while it helps our environment -- does nothing to reduce actual traffic congestion. It's similar to what someone earlier said about his pet peeve being people who take the HOV when they have a child in the car. Children couldn't drive anyway, so it's not like this would reduce the number of cars on the road.

Anyway, it's a two-pronged problem in Los Angeles: 1. bad air AND 2. bad traffic.

I know this wasn't very enlightening; I just like to blab...

AMy

[jrhubott]

The HOV status was an extra plus for the Aptera. In the next couple of years many electric and hybrid vehicles will be available along with alternative fuel vehicles. It will be hard for the Aptera to compete against some of the major manufactures when they start producing electric vehicles.

[KarenRei]

Well, I'm getting an Aptera and they don't even have HOV lanes where I live...

[c0mp13x]

The HOV sticker expires at the end of 2010 and the e-version is not available till the end of the year and most people won't get it until sometime in 2009 leaves very little time to take advantage of the car pool lane. I'm also thinking this makes that Aptera less appealing to many people including myself.
All the rules surrounding distribution of the stickers are to monitor and prevent a crush of low-emission vehicles from taking over the HOV lanes. As stated before, many Prius(es) have stickers, but new Priuses do not qualify. The sticker program for Priuses has reached its maximum.

But... all current Priuses with stickers will be allowed in the HOV lanes until the program expires at the end of 2010. As older Priuses get taken off the road (wear-out, crash, etc.), their numbers in the HOV lanes will slowly reduce.

The remaining sticker incentives now promote the purchase of electric or natural gas vehicles to push Californians toward adaptation of even cleaner alternative fuel vehicles.

As for the success and intent of the original sticker program for hybrid vehicles, I'd say the it was a big contributing factor for southern California Prius sales and I'm sure Toyota would happily agree...

:D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2117/2323592756_84c3e982e9_o.jpg

[KarenRei]

Hey, comp13x: is that picture at the bottom of your post a photoedit or an actual photo? And if so, where is it from? :)

[c0mp13x]

It's one of the new photos posted on the Aptera Flickr page named "DSC_0001 copy". All I did was crop it, no Photoshop in or out of any elements in the photo. As far as I know, it's a real picture of the Aptera traveling down Hollywood Blvd to the Global Green event before the Oscar telecast. I like the lighting in the photo, maybe: "Changing the world... one vehicle at a time"

Here's the link to our thread with a link to the Flickr page: New Aptera Photos 3/6/08 (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=320)

:D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2117/2323592756_84c3e982e9_o.jpg

[davidrools]

The USA Today article (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-01-10-aptera_N.htm) (published Jan '08) starts off with this: "Bored working as an engineer for a biotech company, Steve Fambro began to dream of a better way to get to work.

Why not design a fuel-efficient car that would allow a single driver onto California's car-pool lanes?"

So if Steve Fambro founded the company with carpool lane exemption as a cornerstone design requirement, they'll go to great lengths to ensure this. Of course, laws change (especially in CA) and some changes might not allow the Aptera to adapt to them. But I'm sure Aptera's lawyers did lots of research and maybe some lobbying to get the Aptera in the HOV lanes.

Also, it still states on aptera.com's FAQ page:
"You are not required to wear a helmet to drive the Aptera, nor is an endorsement on your drivers license required. Anything in the state of CA with three wheels does not require a motorcycle license and enclosed vehicles with three wheels do not require the use of a helmet. All this and you also get to drive in the HOV lanes!"

[garygid]

27803. (a) - (e)
(f) This section does not apply to a person operating, or riding as a passenger in, a fully enclosed three-wheeled motor vehicle that is not less than seven feet in length and not less than four feet in width, and has an unladen weight of 900 pounds or more, if the vehicle meets or exceeds all of the requirements of this code, the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, and the rules and regulations adopted by the United States Department of Transportation and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

fully enclosed three-wheeled motor vehicle,
More then 7 feet long, more then 4 feet wide,
more then 900 pounds, and ...
"if the vehicle meets or exceeds all of the requirements of this code"

(What is this part mean? Maybe no rear view mirror makes it not
meet "all" the requirements? What requirements are these?) ..., and

meets other requirements ... so, does this include the Typ1 or not?

Aptera,
Are we really not allowed in the HOV lane, EVEN with 2 occupants?

Is there any later info on this ... ???
Thanks, Gary

[3-4-me]

These vehicle codes are worded so poorly, who knows how they will be interpreted.
I really can't see how a judge would ever rule against you for running two people in the HOV lane.
Especially when you see large deliver trucks and motorhomes use them.
On another thought; who makes up the vehicle codes, and how are they made law?

[garygid]

I am doubting that any of us will want to go to court to fight
for the right to drive the Aptera (with only one occupant, or
even with two) in the California HOV lanes.

If Aptera has already done so, and has a ruling from a judge
(or from the DMV) that we can travel there, they are keeping
that info to themselves. If they have the ruling, they should
let us know and make a copy available (on the web site?) to us.

We will need to carry a copy of the ruling whenever we
use the "carpool" lanes.

Right now, it looks like the Aptera interviews and their web site's
statements are in error, and that one could get a ticket for using
the Aptera in the HOV lane, even with two occupants.

[butter]

the Aptera in the HOV lane, even with two occupants.

Well, one thing's for sure in Los Angeles: carpool lanes is 2 or more people. A friend of mine who lives in the SF Bay Area says that up there it's actually something like 3 or more, that 2 does *not* suffice. And I'm told that in some stretches of the 10 freeway that isn't in West LA, it's like that also -- but signs are clearly posted, telling you just how many people must be in the car.

But otherwise, carpool in LA = 2 people.

[Aptera 1103]

In the bay area where a carpool is three or more, you can use an Aptera that only seats 2. If it had more sets then you would need an extra passenger, but with full occupancy you can not be expected to add another passenger.:rolleyes:

[Apteratude]

Type 1E, carpool lane legal with solo driver or 2 on board.
Type 1H, no carpool lane, unless 2 people on board.

Aptera website is not lying, but was not thorough in their description of it's legality only applying to the type 1E. I don't hold that against them. However...most cops don't know the law pertaining to detailes in the vehicle code, and especially wouldn't know the 900lb rule pertaining to enclosed three wheeled vehicles. So, with a little dishonesty, you could probably talk your way out of 9 out of 10 tickets. And if you lose, or had to pay the $300, What's that in comparison to all the time you saved? For those who live in LA, Orange, it's priceless.

[garygid]

1. Please, what DMV code makes the 1e legal for the HOV lanes?

2. Motorcycles (by DMV code) are permitted, and I have not yet
found a requirement (for motorcycles) to have "full occupancy".

There appears to be no requirement for a sidecar
to be occupied, or for the passenger seat
(if any, behind the driver) to be occupied.

3. I agree that a 2-occupant (or "full occupancy")
would make it unlikely to get a HOV-violation ticket
(a minimum of $372 around here, Orange County).

4. However, once the CHP get the idea that the
"large" enclosed 3-wheel is really illegal, they
might compete to see how many Apteras they can
ticket in a week.

[c0mp13x]

1. Please, what DMV code makes the 1e legal for the HOV lanes?Gary- Please go to the top of this thread, post #3, section "Good News 2 (http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=1184&postcount=3)". Read the referenced and linked section of the CA VC, 5205.5(a)(1). The Typ-1e qualifies as a SULEV and can get a HOV lane sticker. SULEVs have historically been only pure EVs and natural gas vehicles; hybrids, generally, do not qualify (they are not clean enough).


2. Motorcycles (by DMV code) are permitted, and I have not yet found a requirement (for motorcycles) to have "full occupancy". There appears to be no requirement for a sidecar to be occupied, or for the passenger seat (if any, behind the driver) to be occupied.Motorcycles, motorcycles with sidecars and 3 wheeled motorcycles, regardless of occupancy (either 1 or 2 persons), are permitted in the HOV lane. The difference for the Aptera is that it is a large, 3 wheeled, fully enclosed vehicle and does not fit the general definition of a "motorcycle". The definition of this larger, fully enclosed, 3 wheeler is defined in CA VC 27803(f) and is linked in post #3 of this thread, section "Good News 1 (http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=1184&postcount=3)".


3. I agree that a 2-occupant (or "full occupancy") would make it unlikely to get a HOV-violation ticket...ANY highway capable vehicle can ride in the HOV lanes with 2 or more passengers. A few HOV lanes in CA require 3 riders and those lanes specificly post that requirement. Obviously, a motorcycle would not require 3 riders in those particular lanes.


****************
Now... all this assumes we are interpreting the current CA VC correctly and I believe none of us on this forum are truly experts. Also, the requirements for low emission vehicles to be allowed in the HOV lanes could change at any time and all the current requirements expire at the end of 2010. After that date, who knows what new laws and requirements will be implemented. Only one thing is certain, if you want to ride in the HOV lanes, carrying a passenger(s) will absolutely qualify you to do so.

:)

[Chupacabra]

This is really confusing. The average user isn't going to want to deal with so many unknowns and local laws. Aptera will need to finalize lawmaker issues regarding HOV, or remove that advertising from their site. If they do not, at best it will be labeled as misleading advertising. Something a new start up could not afford.

As for me I'm not taking a chance driving in the HOV lane illegally. I don't know if the code is still the same but the last time I received HOV violation ticket they DOUBLE. First ticket: $272, second: $544, Third: They'll use Magna-Lube on you, if you're lucky

[Dolphyn]

For what it's worth, a similar discussion has been hashed out here:
http://flytheroad.com/blog/forums/topic.php?id=597

Well, one thing's for sure in Los Angeles: carpool lanes is 2 or more people. A friend of mine who lives in the SF Bay Area says that up there it's actually something like 3 or more, that 2 does *not* suffice.
That depends on where you are in the Bay Area. Here on the SF Peninsula, the carpool lanes are "2 or more", but in some other places they require "3 or more" (unless the vehicle only seats two).

Only one thing is certain, if you want to ride in the HOV lanes, carrying a passenger(s) will absolutely qualify you to do so.
I don't think that is certain. Section 21714 appears to simply ban large enclosed 3-wheel vehicles in the HOV lane, regardless of the number of passengers.

[c0mp13x]

I don't think that is certain. Section 21714 appears to simply ban large enclosed 3-wheel vehicles in the HOV lane, regardless of the number of passengers.
Ok, maybe my use of the word "certain" might be too strong, but my interpretation of 21714 (a) (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21714.htm) is that it restricts drivers only from use of a large, fully enclosed 3 wheeler from riding solo in the HOV lane. The VC is saying that your large, enclosed 3 wheeler is closer to a car than a motorcycle, so you have to abide by the car rules.

My interpretation of the "intent" of 21714 is to cross reference 21655.5 (a)(b) (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21655_5.htm) and qualify that, if you follow the posted rules for a specific HOV lane (2 or more riders) you may drive in those lanes; not to disqualify one certain type of vehicle that has 3 wheels and a roof.

Now, the online CA VC links could be incomplete and obviously, by all the discussion here, the VC is ambiguously written and requires clarification. It will be interesting to see how the Aptera will qualify for use in the HOV lanes once they start to hit the road.

:rolleyes:

[n_dawg]

SULEVs have historically been only pure EVs and natural gas vehicles; hybrids, generally, do not qualify (they are not clean enough).

As I understand it, most hybrids (save SUVs) are also SULEVs. The Civic Hybrid qualified as an AT-PZEV. The CVT Insight achieves a SULEV rating, and any Prius made after 2001 is either a SULEV or AT-PZEV.

By definition, a PZEV is just a SULEV with no evaporative emissions. An AT-PZEV is a PZEV which uses one of a list of technologies, including regenerative braking.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an electric car simply be a zero-emissions vehicle (ZEV)?

[Dolphyn]

This page appears to be a reasonably comprehensive listing of elegible vehicles:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

Aptera is not in the list, but electric cars such as Tesla and EV1 are listed as ZEV.

More information is here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm
Note, that page specifically says that the right to use clean air vehicles in the carpool lanes is subject to change at any time

[c0mp13x]

...More information is here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm. Note, that page specifically says that the right to use clean air vehicles in the carpool lanes is subject to change at any time...
AND the entire sticker program that allows low emission vehicles in the HOV lanes expires at the end of 2010 (1/1/2011). After that date, the stickers will not work for the HOV lanes unless the program is renewed. If HOV lanes get crowded with carpoolers and old Prius drivers, expect the program to not be renewed.

So... if you are buying a Aptera to get in the HOV lanes, it's a gamble at this point. Under the current regulations, the Typ-1e will be allowed in the HOV lanes for about 1.5-2 years after the first Apteras hit the street.

:rolleyes:

[3-4-me]

Great discussion.
c0mp13x: I appreciate your input and research on this subject.
Guess we'll have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

[Shooty]

I'm pretty sure all the State decals have already been used up. They had a finite number to dole out. Although the "program" expires in 2010, the decals have not been available for some time. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Shooty

[jsnable]

There are two types of decals - those for hybrids getting a certain mpg (>45 I think) and those for zero emission vehicles (defined as natural gas, lpg, and pure electric). The former decals are yellow and are indeed used up (and subject to program expiration). The latter are white and I haven't seen any sunset provision for them but could be wrong. A quick search of the DMV site didn't turn up much...

Jay


I'm pretty sure all the State decals have already been used up. They had a finite number to dole out. Although the "program" expires in 2010, the decals have not been available for some time. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Shooty

[garygid]

Maybe having the window open will allow the Aptera to travel
in the HOV lane, since it is no longer "fully enclosed " as specified
as one of the requirements in the "large, 3-wheel" description?

The page linked to above (with the list of cars) states that the
stickers are all gone.

[A1phaGeek]

"This really disappoints me. My very reason to get an aptera was to utilize the HOV lane as a solo driver. So, anybody want my aptera? I'm in the 900's on the list...."

I'll gladly buy your Aptera. I'd prefer the electric, but i'll be happy with which ever I can get first :)

[esmith]

As far as I can tell, the INTENT of section 21714 is to say that enclosed three-wheeled vehicles above certain size, while technically motorcycles, should be treated like cars with respect to HOV lane laws.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_1029&sess=9798&house=B&author=frusetta

Prior to this bill, Aptera would've been treated as a motorcycle for all intents and purposes (can ride in carpool lanes, drivers must wear helmets). Manufacturers of a vehicle called Corbin Sparrow petitioned the government to drop the helmet requirement. That did happen, but, at some point someone decided to "clarify" that big 3-wheelers have no business riding in carpool lanes.

[garygid]

It still looks like the Aptera is currently banned from using the HOV lanes,
even with two occupants, or "full occupancy".

Hopefully Aptera is trying to do something about this situation.

[Shooty]

Howdy y'all. My optimism regarding the HOV situation has been rekindled. I contacted Aptera about this issue, specifically regarding the use of the HOV lane with a solo driver in the hybrid Aptera. I received a very cordial email, and was assured that I WILL be able to drive solo-hybrid in the HOV lane. No further details, except that more information will be forthcoming when production starts.

So, I am guardedly presuming that SOMETHING has been worked out between the Aptera lawyers and th State -- some kind of an exception... maybe a new sticker program... or maybe a persuasive interpretation under the current law... who knows? :) Maybe the State is waiting for Aptera to meet some kind of structural/engine/emissions specification, and this could be the reason that they need to wait for production time in order to make this official?

Just guessing... but the email from Aptera sounds very encouraging!

-Shooty

[ApteraStorm]

It still looks like the Aptera is currently banned from using the HOV lanes,
even with two occupants, or "full occupancy".

Hopefully Aptera is trying to do something about this situation.

Hmm... I wouldn't have expected that. I mean, even two-seater pickup trucks can ride the HOV since they're fully occupied, right?

[garygid]

Now that is the kind of good, positive optimism that we need, Thanks.
HOV, here I come! :jumping0007:

[esmith]

AHA!

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_2272&sess=CUR&house=A&author=fuentes

[MegaAutoBit]

AHA!

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_2272&sess=CUR&house=A&author=fuentes

WOW, good find.

[garygid]

From the link below, a Summary of the bill, which passed with
no "NO" votes in the Assembly:

SUMMARY : Allows fully enclosed three-wheeled motorcycles to
operate in high occupancy vehicle (HOV) lanes. Specifically,
this bill :

1)Deletes, from the statutory definition of motorcycle, the
requirement that the vehicle weigh less than 1,500 pounds.

2)Deletes, from the statutory definition of motorcycle, the
separate description for those motorcycles that are powered by
electricity.

3)Repeals the existing prohibition against fully enclosed
three-wheeled motor vehicles from operating in HOV lanes.

[Dolphyn]

Based on what I read here (http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/947179.html), apparently AB 2272 would also allow the Aptera to use motorcycle parking spaces (although I don't see anything about parking in the actual text (http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/billtrack/text.html?file=ab_2272_bill_20080221_introduced.ht ml) of the bill).

Sadly, the bill apparently forbids 'lane-splitting' in an Aptera. :rolleye0003:

AB 2272 current status: Currently referred to the California Senate Committee on Transportation and Housing (members (http://www.sen.ca.gov/ftp/sen/committee/STANDING/TRANSPORTATION/_home1/PROFILE.HTM)). A hearing is scheduled for June 10. (Looks promising, since the bill passed unanimously in the Assembly source (http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/Bills/AB_2272))

[Raiyn]

Sadly, the bill apprently forbids 'lane-splitting' in an Aptera. :rolleye0003:


Why on Earth would you want to?

[garygid]

Well, this bill is Great.

However, we still have to park a motorcycle with one tire or fender
touching the curb (when parking along a curb).

[Raiyn]

Well, this bill is Great.

However, we still have to park a motorcycle with one tire or fender
touching the curb (when parking along a curb).

Another possible use for a curb feeler? :D

[c0mp13x]

I figured the push to get AB 2272 through the Calif legislature was led by Aptera and it's supporters, but I forgot about Venture Vehicles (http://www.flytheroad.com/) and it's leaning 3 wheeler. Apparently, VV has hired lobbyists to help push this bill through. It's great to have more than one manufacturer pushing for 3 wheeler acceptance.

Sacramento Bee reports on the Venture One (http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/947179.html)

As a motorcycle rider, the Venture One looks intriguing, but VV has yet to show a working prototype of their design based on the original Carver. If VV can mass produce what they have proposed, I would love to drive one. I did notice that recent press releases for the Venture One show the original goal price point of $20k now climbing to $25k.

;)

[gkra]

Well, this bill is Great.

However, we still have to park a motorcycle with one tire or fender
touching the curb (when parking along a curb).

I've gotten in the habit of doing this even in my cars, since my house is on a sloped part of our street. Parallel-park like normal, then crank the wheel over and ease off the brake until the wheel nudges the curb.

This might be problematic when there are tall curbs (as SoCal municipalities seem to be really fond of) with the wheel skirts, though. We might be able to get away with "close enough", given the car-size body, if it's properly parallel-parked.

Of course, if you have the option to not park in the street, it's a non-issue.

[garygid]

BILL NUMBER : A.B. No. 2272
AUTHOR : Fuentes
TOPIC : Vehicles: motorcycles.

TYPE OF BILL :
Active
Non-Urgency
Non-Appropriations
Majority Vote Required
State-Mandated Local Program
Fiscal
Non-Tax Levy

BILL HISTORY
2008
May 1 Referred to Com. on T. & H.
Apr. 22 In Senate. Read first time. To Com. on RLS. for assignment.
Apr. 21 Read third time, passed, and to Senate. (Ayes 73. Noes 0. Page
4743.)
Apr. 17 Read second time. To third reading.
Apr. 16 From committee: Do pass. (Ayes 17. Noes 0.) (April 16).
Apr. 8 From committee: Do pass, and re-refer to Com. on APPR.
Re-referred. (Ayes 14. Noes 0.) (April 7).
Mar. 5 Referred to Com. on TRANS.
Feb. 22 From printer. May be heard in committee March 23.
Feb. 21 Read first time. To print.

[garygid]

Scheduled for a Hearing in the Senate Transportation and
Housing Committee tomorrow:

LAST HIST. ACT. DATE: 05/01/2008
LAST HIST. ACTION : Referred to Com. on T. & H.
COMM. LOCATION : SEN TRANSPORTATION AND HOUSING
HEARING DATE : 06/10/2008

[gg222]

Here's a copy of the bill. (http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2251-2300/ab_2272_bill_20080221_introduced.pdf)

[garygid]

The Analysis (http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2251-2300/ab_2272_cfa_20080605_172013_sen_comm.html) for the Senate T&H Committee notes that the CA
law that would prohibit the Aptera from using the HOV lanes is
contrary to Federal law that prohibits states from keeping
motorcycles out of the HOV lanes.

[Dolphyn]

For what it's worth, I saw a Sparrow (NmG) cruising in the carpool lane last week, so at least one individual in Silicon Valley thinks it's okay to use the carpool lane in a 3-wheel vehicle. :)

[JoeReal]

For what it's worth, I saw a Sparrow (NmG) cruising in the carpool lane last week, so at least one individual in Silicon Valley thinks it's okay to use the carpool lane in a 3-wheel vehicle. :)

Barring classification as a motorcycle, I think it is allowed for another reason. The law has been modified so that it will allow maximum occupancy vehicle. If the vehicle carries only one passenger, then it is allowed, as it is maxed out at one passenger. If it is a two seater type, then if you have two people in the vehicle, it is allowed. Aptera is practically a two-seater vehicle.

[garygid]

Currently, CA Motor Vehicle code 21714 (which refers to Section
27803(f) that defines a "large" motorcycle like the Aptera or Sparrow)
specifically says that this type of vehicle is not permitted to use the
HOV lanes at all.
Yes, this is in conflict with Federal laws.

If you know of other CA legislation that overrides this, please
tell us which law, or vehicle code, or etc. that it is, please.

[KarenRei]

you think it would really double it? Definitely it would make it worse, but I wouldn't think it that bad

As Steve notes in the Popular Mechanics video, merely not having the windshield wipers recessed would almost double the drag.

[JoeReal]

Currently, CA Motor Vehicle code 21714 (which refers to Section
27803(f) that defines a "large" motorcycle like the Aptera or Sparrow)
specifically says that this type of vehicle is not permitted to use the
HOV lanes at all.

Even if you have maximum occupancy? Just being a "large" motorcycle disqualifies it automatically?

[JoeReal]

There are many 2-seater pick-up trucks and sports car that qualifies for HOV lane when they have 2 passengers even if the carpool lane requires 3 or more. And they are immensely heavier or bigger than Sparrow or Aptera.

[Kenny]

I think the all-electric Aptera can get a sticker but the hybrid can't.

That sticker limit was for hybrids, not natural gas or all-electric vehicles.

[garygid]

Karen,
Likely the "double" drag is an overstatement, like 300 mph.

Joe,
The "large" motorcycle is currently excluded from HOV.
The reason is, I believe, that in some previous legislation,
it got the benefits of no helmets, and not requiring a motorcycle
drivers license, but paid for those by getting the no-HOV status.

Kenny,
I believe the CA HOV-sticker program is all out of stickers, with
no more to be issued, at least at this point.

With the price of gas doing the job of supplying an "incentive"
for people to buy greener vehicles, the state might not consider
any further incentives, like use of the HOV lane, to be necessary.

However, to be in line with Federal law, CA may well remove the
prohibition on "large" motorcycles. Keep your electrons crossed.

[Kenny]

Kenny,
I believe the CA HOV-sticker program is all out of stickers, with
no more to be issued, at least at this point.


True, the program stopped issuing yellow carpool stickers to new hybrids a while back ( I do have mine though :love0002: )

But natural gas and electric vehicles get the white stickers, not the yellow ones that us hybrid owners get.

I'll check the DMV's site but I'm almost certain there never was a limit on the white "Clean Air Vehicle Carpool" stickers.

So I think Aptera EVs will get a white carpool sticker but the Aptera hybrids will get no sticker.

[Kenny]

Yes, here are the California DMV links that appear to indicate natural gas and electric vehicles still get the white stickers.

The first link explains the two stickers.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/decal.htm

This next link lists which cars would qualify for a white (natural gas or full electric) or a yellow (hybrid) sticker.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t293/kizzyyaya/clean_air_white.jpg http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t293/kizzyyaya/clean_air_yellow.jpg

Ability to drive solo in California's carpool lanes make the all electric Aptera VERY desirable, plus it's $3000 cheaper and available one year earlier.

Again the Aptera Hybrid will not qualify for a carpool sticker but the all-electric Aptera will. (edit: at least that is my expectation.)

[garygid]

Kenny,
Good work!
Yes, I was thinking of the Hybrid stickers that are all gone.

So, the Aptera could get a white sticker, IF it was listed, and
then one driver operation would be OK ... IF our "large" motorcycle
is allowed into the HOV lane at all. Hopefully the bill to go to the
CA Senate "soon" will change the law to allow us to use the HOV lanes.

[JoeReal]

Joe,
The "large" motorcycle is currently excluded from HOV.
The reason is, I believe, that in some previous legislation,
it got the benefits of no helmets, and not requiring a motorcycle
drivers license, but paid for those by getting the no-HOV status.


Are you confirming that this "large" motorcycle exclusion from HOV overrides any of the exemptions of Maximum Occupancy Vehicles that most cities are implementing? This has been my question, inquiry or implication from many previous posts.

[garygid]

No, I would need to read the local (or other) conflicting law.
I suspect that most cities do not have jurisdiction on
Federal or State freeways or highways.

Conflicting laws are not easy to deal with, and in general
one wants to avoid the necessity (and costs) of doing so.

There can be conflicting laws at the state level, like perhaps ...
one law that all riders must wear a helmet on a motorcycle, and
another law that it is illegal to wear a helmet in an enclosed vehicle.

When a state and local law conflict, it is even sometimes
less clear who has the jurisdiction.

Then, a federal law prohibits states from enacting laws to
exclude motorcycles from the HOV lanes.
But, a current CA state law does exactly that.

[JoeReal]

I have a friend who drove from the silicon valley (ie, Intel at Santa Clara) to Berkeley. That section of 101 connects with I-80. From Hwy 101 at San Carlos, the minimum number of vehicle occupants for HOV lane is 2 but as soon as you get I-80, it changes to 3. As you reach the carpool lanes of Sacramento like Hwy 99, or sections of Hwy 50, it is 2. All was well until they reached I-80 and got cited for carpool violation. They were only 2 in a sedan. I don't know who is setting those numbers, the Feds, the State, CalTrans or the city.

Also there was public outcry about the minimum of 3 occupants if the vehicle can only support one or two occupants, so they got an exemption for 2-seater vehicles. I know for sure that this is honored in the Bay Area Freeways, so I believe Aptera can be used in the HOV if it has 2 vehicle occupants here regardless if it is considered a large motorcycle or not.

[garygid]

JoeR...,
Sure, you can always choose to use the Aptera in an HOV lane, that is
always a choice available to you.

However, you can be ticketed for doing so, no matter how many occupants
are required locally, or how many occupants are in the vehicle.

This is not a matter of the number of occupants.
This type of motorcycle ("large", enclosed, three-wheel) is currently
FORBIDDEN by the CA Vehicle Code to use any HOV lane.

Hopefully, bill AB 2272 (Fuentes) will change this.

I have not been able to find anything in the Vehicle Code about allowing
"maximum occupancy" vehicles use the HOV lanes if they do not have the
required number of occupants. Do you know where that would be?

[JoeReal]

I'll try to find some links. But it was in the news report a long long time ago and it stuck to our brains because our group do carpooling and those are one of those issues. I used to commute from Davis to Santa Clara everyday for six months when subcontracting for Intel was very hot.

[bsouthwick]

I just put my name on the list, so my number is 2861. I guess this is going to take a while to get one. But I look forward to it. I was planning on a prius then upgrade it include with another battery and plug in. But this will be better. I only with the so called trunk was bigger so I could put my wheelchair in it.

[garygid]

Bsouth...,
Did you place your Reservation #2861 on June 4th?
Or, perhaps on June 5th?
Thanks, Gary

[OC-LA driver]

I've read this thread and read the law. It certainly seems the same code section which exempts Aptera occupants from wearing helmets is referenced by another code section defining vehicles which are not permitted to use the HOV lane...EVER.

While the complete prohibition seems inadvertent (i.e. even big three-wheelers should be permitted into HOV lanes if there are two occupants {if that's all the lane requires}), the law is unambiguous in my view.

In summary, motorcycles can always use the HOV lane, regardless of number of people. But big three-wheelers never can, regardless of the number of people.

The idea was raised earlier, maybe the Aptera fails to meet certain federal safety standards or NHTSA vehicle standards, and that would allow Aptera to escape the definition of big three-wheeler...but then its occupants would be required to wear helmets, which Aptera states on its website is not required.

I have submitted a detailed email request to Aptera, citing the code and differentiating the electric (which gets HOV use currently as a super clean vehicle) from the hybrid (which does not seem to have access, as a big three-wheeler)

I will share any response with you all.

This is the major reason I haven't plunked down my deposit...I commute solo, 73 miles each way in the HOV lane, so continued access is a key issue for me.

[garygid]

Did you not understand that there is bill AB 2272 in the
CA Senate (T&H Committee now) to remove this "ban"?

see http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_2272&sess=CUR&house=B&site=sen

The bill was passed by the CA Assembly with no NO votes.

[old sparky]

I believe this bill is dead! I stopped by the State Senators office and they said the bill will not be voted on this year and will have to be reintroduced next year. She asked if I wanted to support this bill and I stated yes. Maybe someone who knows more about this can do some research.

[JoeReal]

I've read this thread and read the law. It certainly seems the same code section which exempts Aptera occupants from wearing helmets is referenced by another code section defining vehicles which are not permitted to use the HOV lane...EVER.
....
This is the major reason I haven't plunked down my deposit...I commute solo, 73 miles each way in the HOV lane, so continued access is a key issue for me.

The Volt should qualify you for the HOV. For a larger battery pack and less miles, it will turn on the ICE during your one way commute. Make sure to plug it in the office before you come back. Not as efficient as Aptera, but is allowed by current law.

[JoeReal]

I knew I am right. For those skeptics out there, I found the reference. All folks who got a ticket for 2-seater vehicles can site this FAQ from California's Department of transportation website:

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/paffairs/faq/faq79.htm

Q What's an HOV lane?

A.

"High Occupancy Vehicle" lane, or car-pool lane. The central concept for HOV lanes is to move more people rather than more cars. Some HOV lanes carry almost half of the people carried on the entire freeway. Regular "mixed-flow" lanes are never converted to HOV lanes. Rather, HOV lanes are always added to existing facilities. Each vehicle that travels on an HOV lane must carry the minimum number of people posted at the entrance signs. Usually that means at least two people, or in some cases three people. Each child counts as an occupant, but pets, infants still in the womb, inflatable dolls or ghosts do not (we've heard 'em all). Violators are subject to a minimum $271 fine. The California Highway Patrol handed out more than 18,000 such citations in 1996. Exceptions: A car manufactured with only two seats can use an HOV-3 lane if both seats are occupied. Motorcycles, even those carrying just one person, are allowed to use the HOV lanes. Some HOV lanes are in operation only during certain hours, which are posted. Outside of those hours, they may be used by all vehicles.

[garygid]

As an FAQ, that would appear to be somebody's opinion,
not necessarily derived from any law.

It would be nice to find the actual legal statute.

[APTERA 2356]

It seems to be a matter of defining the Aptera as a motorcycle. I believe due to it's weight it isn't classified as a motorcycle but it is registered as one.

so if its a motorcycle it's allowed? seems like you could use this grey area in traffic court if needed. I think most judges would dismiss the case, at least once

[JoeReal]

As an FAQ, that would appear to be somebody's opinion,
not necessarily derived from any law.

It would be nice to find the actual legal statute.

For sanity's sake, it is published in the official DOT website, and surely is not someone's opinion. The lawyers would have a field day about such publication. There are many cases where judges have thrown out citations when your vehicle is manufactured to have only two seats and they're all occupied during the citation.

Now how about you doing the leg work of finding the legal statute. I've done my part.

[garygid]

Indeed, you did good finding the FAQ.

I have looked for a law, and could not find a related statute.
Maybe it is not in the Vehicle Code, but somewhere else.
I gave up after looking for over an hour.

You can see how much good the FAQ did for your friends
who got the ticket. But it may get them off, if
they take the time and effort to go to traffic court.
That can really be an expensive pain when the
jurisdiction is far from one's home.

Sometimes, mailing in some "documentation" can get
the ticket drastically reduced, but rarely canceled.

I have printed out the FAQ to carry a copy in my car.
Perhaps showing it to a patrol person would help?

With the Aptera, however, it is not an issue of one
or two occupants of the vehicle. By vehicle code statute,
motorcycles are permitted with only one occupant.

The Aptera is under the 1500 pound weight limit so that
it is (must be) legally classed as a motorcycle.
However, large, enclosed motorcycles are currently prohibited,
by statute, from using the HOV lane at all.

[JoeReal]

Agree with you there Gary. We need to petition to change the law. Just update me whenever there is a petition letter that needed signing, especially amongst the Apterans!

[garygid]

Contact your CA Senator NOW, to try and get the bill
AB 2272 out of the T&H Committee and passed this year!

[JoeReal]

I trust that you've read it for the lazy me, and it would allow Aptera in the HOV lane even if single occupancy and classified as a "large" motorcycle. But will get to read it later, I promise.

Thanks.

[garygid]

Not really necessary to read AB 2272

see http://info.sen.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_2272&sess=CUR&house=B&site=sen

but you do need to contact your CA Senator and urge them
to get this bill to the Senate floor for a vote this year,
and not wait until next year ... or never.

The T&H Committee recommended this action yesterday:
COMM. ACTION DATE: 06/10/2008
COMM. ACTION: Do pass, but re-refer to the Committee on Appropriations.
COMM. VOTE SUMMARY: Ayes: 07 Noes: 00 PASS

So, now we have to get it through the Committee on Appropriations ...
and back to the Senate floor for a vote.

[OC-LA driver]

I've emailed my Senator to promote the bill.

I do hope Aptera will respond to my inquiry, since current law seems contrary to Aptera's apparent assertion that both models qualify for single-occupant HOV use.

Let's pass AB 2272 to make the law crystal clear, and let's see if Aptera feels actually the law is OK as it stands.

[garygid]

I suspect that Aptera is counting on the AB 2272 bill
to make their assertion correct.

If Aptera has any other "plans" or perceptions, they
have carefully not said anything about it.

[garygid]

To find your Senator, use this site:
http://www.senate.ca.gov/~newsen/senators/districtmaps.HTP
and click the "Your Senator" link in the left column.

I just sent essentially this to my Senator (Senator Dick Ackerman):
Feel free to copy, paste, and edit to suit yourself.
-------------------------------------------
AB 2272
Aptera Motors (in Carlsbad, see www.aptera.com) is doing a great thing in bringing out an all-electric vehicle (and, later, a electric "hybrid") that can get 120 miles on one electric charge. The hybrid will get about 130 mpg after its battery is used up. Until then, no gas used. Over 3000 paid reservations have already been made for these energy-saving vehicles.

This vehicle has only 3-wheels, so it is classed as a motorcycle in CA. However, it is banned from using the HOV lanes, even with full occupancy ... just because it is a 3-wheel, "large", enclosed motorcycle. That is not fair, when virtually every other vehicle can use the HOV lanes.

Also, it is limited to 1500 pounds, and that limits the batteries that it can carry, thus limiting the useful range. Again, not for any apparent good reason. AB 2272 removes these restrictions.

AB 2272 was passed (no NO votes) by the assembly and just went through the T&H Committee with no NO votes. Apparently it was referred to another committee.

Please try to get this bill AB 2272 to the Senate floor and passed, primarily to allow such great energy-saving vehicles to be designed with more batteries (more range, and Aptera is using safe batteries), but also to let us drive in the HOV lanes like other motorcycles can do.

Sincerely, Gary
---------------------------------

[garygid]

Until this bill is passed, maybe this should be a sticky thread?

[KarenRei]

Could you perhaps start a new thread and head it off with a concise summary of what's going on, what the status is, and what people need to do (with as many links as possible)? There seems to be enough interest to justify a sticky thread, but I don't want people to have to wade through all this.

[garygid]

Karen, done as you suggested.
Thanks.

[garygid]

I just emailed the following to Aptera:

-------------------
Subject: Aptera in HOV lanes - AB 2272 in Senate's Inactive File

Is there anybody that we can call or contact to help get this bill passed this year?
Yes, we have "emailed" our Senators, but the bill remains in the Senate's Inactive File.

Without it, we will NOT be able to legally enter the HOV lane, even with two occupants, right?

As you are probably aware, the CA Senate has not passed AB 2272
which would allow the Aptera to legally use the HOV lanes.
So, only the 4 to 31 August window remains for AB 2272 to be passed this year.

Because, it looks like the CA Senate is out for "Summer Recess" until August, and then:
Aug. 4 Legislature reconvenes from Summer Recess (J.R. 51(b)(2)).
then
Aug. 31 Last day for any bill to be passed (Art. IV, Sec. 10(c), (J.R. 61(b)(17)).
Final Recess begins upon adjournment (J.R. 51(b)(3)).
---------------------

[Apt3448]

I emailed my senator last week - no response (yet). A tad disconcerting to see your tax-dollars (not) at work...

[JimmyDreams]

Still no response my my phone call asking senator Torlickson (or whatever his name is that made the motion to put the bill in the 'inactive' file) why he did so.

Maybe it was because I'm not in his district.

I hate politicians.....

JimmyD

[jstdadd]

I know that on the Aptera website somewhere it's stated that because the Aptera will be a 3-wheeler, it will be legally allowed to use the California carpool lanes -- with or without any Prius-type low-emission sticker permit.

But is this really really true?

Does anybody know?

Amy
Garygid already has a post here about the need to change the law in CA; it is one of the first topics in the "Sticky" area on this forum.

http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=1012

Gary provides the Assembly Bill Number, tells you what to tell your assemblyman, who to call, etc.

[garygid]

Fuentes, the bill's author, asked that the bill be delayed, to give him time to talk to some Senators. It should be reactivated in August.