Time to get my deposit back

[popnfresh]

I hate to say it, but I've lost faith in Aptera. I put a deposit down on a 2h a year and a half ago and today I feel no closer to taking delivery on an Aptera than I did back then. Not only that, the final cost appears to have been raised by at least $10,000.

And that's just the beginning. There's still no final word on features, options, warranty, specifications, mileage, range, locations of dealerships and repair shops or even appearance. I attended the Aptera road show in Palo Alto in April and I couldn't get a straight answer from them on anything.

I could understand a certain amount of reticence about specifics on their part in the early stages of development, but at this late date it's indefensible. This smacks of evasiveness and the kind of stonewalling I would expect from a scam, not a legitimate business. I'm getting my money back and buying a car that actually exists.

[paddler13]

Cool, more people get to move up on the list. Too bad you'll miss out when it does get released and actually I'm sorry to see you go. But not being on the reservation list doesn't mean you won't buy one in the future I suspect, when/if the release happens the the vehicle proves robust.

[popnfresh]

Cool, more people get to move up on the list. Too bad you'll miss out when it does get released and actually I'm sorry to see you go. But not being on the reservation list doesn't mean you won't buy one in the future I suspect, when/if the release happens the the vehicle proves robust.
I suspect that Aptera is in very deep financial trouble. It's the only rational explanation for their total silence so late in the game. I no longer buy their "we're too busy to keep you informed" line they've been using for the last year and a half. It's a load of bull.

Have fun waiting for nothing!

[paddler13]

Riiiight. There are endless explanations for what is happening that are standing in line way ahead of your explanation. Given how people tend to react in here, the demands that get made, the rhetorical lines that get drawn and the silliness of people who think their $500 buys them influence with a company that promised nothing more than to sell them something if it comes out or give them their money back, I'd say you won't be missed in the line.

Really, if what you need is your $500 back just say so, times are hard and it is understandable. But giving up your place because you're miffed is silly, even if you eventually decided not to turn your deposit into an order you're out nothing but time.

[OC-LA driver]

I think they have decided to accumulate all the changes and spring it on us when complete, rather than dribble out more details one by one. You have to admit, we're primed to crawl all over then next bits of real news. Get the product complete, then start the real buzz about the real deal with a real bang!

[esmith]

Silence is worrisome, delays are worrisome.

Personally, I'm hedging my bets by also being on the unofficial Volt waitlist. I'm number 48 thousand something, but it's a no-deposit waitlist, I expect a high dropout rate. Besides, GM may be able to build 48 thousand Volts faster than Aptera builds 4 thousand.

We'll see which number comes first ...

[lapwing]

I hate to say it, but I've lost faith in Aptera........................


Frankly can't blame ya.

I think the purity of the type 1e design was perfection, both in concept and prototype execution. Sure it had no cup holders and no roll down windows but, I don't do take away at micky mc fats, and I can park, and get off my arse, to go into a bank or a coffee shop. I would buy that prototype in a heartbeat - even as a "kit car". Especially as a kit!

The compromise to include the hybrid option is what f!cked things.

The move to FWD in type 2e, had had a knock-on effect that will result in weight/feature creep.

The pregnant "black belly" guppy look I have seen in the latest incarnations (or is that incantations, ?? aka vapor-ware) to accomodate batteries , gen-set, under the seating. ICK!

The lines will hang ever closer to the asphalt. Gone will be the concept that got us all so excited. So sad. The orginal vision is v. close to perfection.

Having said that, I would buy a wide footed FWD type 2e as demonstrated, any day of the week. Configured as a 100 mile, $25 000 car, or even a $15 000 kit car without batteries. I think the look of the narrower vehicle that is coming online blows. Every inch narrower forces a lower C of G, to maintain stability. As the ground beckons - conventional comes to mind.

Weight and feature creep is the antithesis of this vehicle.

It's all moot however, seen as I live in Oregon, and they would not even take my money.
Maybe I will have to build my own?? Copying is the sincerest form of flattery - right?:aptera:

[evmavin]

Frankly can't blame ya.

I think the purity of the type 1e design was perfection, both in concept and prototype execution. Sure it had no cup holders and no roll down windows but, I don't do take away at micky mc fats, and I can park, and get off my arse, to go into a bank or a coffee shop. I would buy that prototype in a heartbeat - even as a "kit car". Especially as a kit!

The compromise to include the hybrid option is what f!cked things.

The move to FWD in type 2e, had had a knock-on effect that will result in weight/feature creep.

The pregnant "black belly" guppy look I have seen in the latest incarnations (or is that incantations, ?? aka vapor-ware) to accomodate batteries , gen-set, under the seating. ICK!

The lines will hang ever closer to the asphalt. Gone will be the concept that got us all so excited. So sad. The orginal vision is v. close to perfection.

Having said that, I would buy a wide footed FWD type 2e as demonstrated, any day of the week. Configured as a 100 mile, $25 000 car, or even a $15 000 kit car without batteries. I think the look of the narrower vehicle that is coming online blows. Every inch narrower forces a lower C of G, to maintain stability. As the ground beckons - conventional comes to mind.

Weight and feature creep is the antithesis of this vehicle.

It's all moot however, seen as I live in Oregon, and they would not even take my money.
Maybe I will have to build my own?? Copying is the sincerest form of flattery - right?:aptera:



I truly hope the bottom is never painted black but the ability to roll down windows is something I think was needed for more then lazy people and the sales would be slim without that feature although I hope it does not destroy the lines of the vehicle or if there is an option for fixed windows. As far as FWD, that was the single best decision made for this vehicle for a multitude of reasons and I can't see any negatives of this front.

I hope the new design is a good surprise and not a disappointing compromise as there will be many more practical alternatives in the future and keeping this vehicle design great will impact its success.

[DonC]

Silence is worrisome, delays are worrisome.

Personally, I'm hedging my bets by also being on the unofficial Volt waitlist. I'm number 48 thousand something, but it's a no-deposit waitlist, I expect a high dropout rate. Besides, GM may be able to build 48 thousand Volts faster than Aptera builds 4 thousand.

We'll see which number comes first ...
Yes hearing nothing is usually not very good news but hopefully there are other things at work.

FWIW the Volt list isn't official and where you are placed on that list should have absolutely no effect on when you might be able to buy one. GM is planning on building 10K units in the first year, but sales will be concentrated in specific geographic areas -- CA, DC, NY -- and offered through a limited number of dealers. Being number 48 thousand something gives you about the same chance as being number 48.

If you live in CA the Coda is also a possibility.

[BrianK]

Hearing nothing new from a low-production car company releasing a ground breaking car is nothing new. In fact, I think the opposite is the exception.

Patience. They said they will release in the 4th quarter. What more do you want? "We're testing another new motor this week." "We've made the windows roll down an extra inch this week." "We think we might paint the bottom black to hide all the scratches that will certainly accumulate as you pack on the miles." "We sourced a robot manufacturer for our assembly line robots." "We've developed a whole new suite of testing tools for the in-car entertainment software." "We're in the third month of our regen algorithm design. So and so in the software dept. increase regen efficiency by 1.4%.."

Sometimes news ain't that relevant to the customer base.

I bet Aptera will release facts when they have them.

[evmavin]

Hearing nothing new from a low-production car company releasing a ground breaking car is nothing new. In fact, I think the opposite is the exception.

Patience. They said they will release in the 4th quarter. What more do you want? "We're testing another new motor this week." "We've made the windows roll down an extra inch this week." "We think we might paint the bottom black to hide all the scratches that will certainly accumulate as you pack on the miles." "We sourced a robot manufacturer for our assembly line robots." "We've developed a whole new suite of testing tools for the in-car entertainment software." "We're in the third month of our regen algorithm design. So and so in the software dept. increase regen efficiency by 1.4%.."

Sometimes news ain't that relevant to the customer base.

I bet Aptera will release facts when they have them.


These are all pointless matters consumers do not need and should not expect. The issue is more of specific communications regarding news letters that were promised and the like, but those would be pointless anyway. Weekly play-by-plays of progress on the vehicle are senseless but I do wonder how are car can be released in the forth quarter without service infrastructure in place and tested months before and without pre-order specs refined in advance of production. I would expect the "options" website to be launched by at least August, Aptera said it would be here "soon" in Dec I think. You can't just build a service center the day the car launches and where are the "production models" being tested? I would hope a "fully" completed production model gets many miles of testing before sale, not just prototypes with various production parts, etc. Perhaps it's doing circles in the facility 24/7. It still seems a bit last minute which makes me think Q4 will be at best a very "soft" launch of a few vehicles to test the waters which was what was implied to be happening all this year. Remember the "test fleet" for "select" owners that was supposed to be happening early this year? I love start up companies:)

[jstdadd]

It still seems a bit last minute which makes me think Q4 will be at best a very "soft" launch of a few vehicles to test the waters which was what was implied to be happening all this year. Remember the "test fleet" for "select" owners that was supposed to be happening early this year? I love start up companies:)

I seem to have missed 'what was implied' and 'supposed to be happening'. That's why I gobble up the interviews.

I must agree that the FWD was the best improvement I have heard, and I for one will be supremely happy to have roll down windows, even if they hand-crank. I have to drive past a guard shack and hand over a badge every morning and I shudder to think of a scenario of opening the gull-wing doors to accomplish that.

[popnfresh]

Hearing nothing new from a low-production car company releasing a ground breaking car is nothing new. In fact, I think the opposite is the exception.

Patience. They said they will release in the 4th quarter. What more do you want? "We're testing another new motor this week." "We've made the windows roll down an extra inch this week." "We think we might paint the bottom black to hide all the scratches that will certainly accumulate as you pack on the miles." "We sourced a robot manufacturer for our assembly line robots." "We've developed a whole new suite of testing tools for the in-car entertainment software." "We're in the third month of our regen algorithm design. So and so in the software dept. increase regen efficiency by 1.4%.."

Sometimes news ain't that relevant to the customer base.

I bet Aptera will release facts when they have them.
Aptera isn't a low-production company. They're a NO-production company. When I put down my deposit over a year ago, they promised to begin delivering the 2e by Q4 2008, and the 2h by mid-2009. Now, they're "hoping" to get a few 2e's out the door by the end of this year and god only knows when, or even if, the 2h's will see the light of day. When I put down my deposit, the 2h was supposed to be a $25-30k car, now they're saying it's going to run over $40k. The whole thing is ridiculous. The car is vaporware. I think maybe a few people will get a 2e next spring and then the company will fold before the end of 2010. I hope I'm wrong, but my gut tells me I'm right.

[popnfresh]

Riiiight. There are endless explanations for what is happening that are standing in line way ahead of your explanation. Given how people tend to react in here, the demands that get made, the rhetorical lines that get drawn and the silliness of people who think their $500 buys them influence with a company that promised nothing more than to sell them something if it comes out or give them their money back, I'd say you won't be missed in the line.

Really, if what you need is your $500 back just say so, times are hard and it is understandable. But giving up your place because you're miffed is silly, even if you eventually decided not to turn your deposit into an order you're out nothing but time.
That's a laugh. Yeah, I really think my measly $500 will influence the company. Its not about the money, it's about a principle. You want influence? 500 people demanding a $500 refund... that WILL influence the company--I guarantee it. It's already started to happen. And the longer Aptera stonewalls the more refund requests they're going to get. Pretty soon, the trickle of requests will become a flood.

[Clemson_Aptera_Fan]

I must agree that the FWD was the best improvement I have heard, and I for one will be supremely happy to have roll down windows, even if they hand-crank. I have to drive past a guard shack and hand over a badge every morning and I shudder to think of a scenario of opening the gull-wing doors to accomplish that.

Depending on the door/hinge assembly it could be just as easy and quick to open the door as it would be to roll down a window, especially since the doors don't go much past the wheels. But that's just my opinion.

[JimmyDreams]

That's a laugh. Yeah, I really think my measly $500 will influence the company. Its not about the money, it's about a principle. You want influence? 500 people demanding a $500 refund... that WILL influence the company--I guarantee it. It's already started to happen. And the longer Aptera stonewalls the more refund requests they're going to get. Pretty soon, the trickle of requests will become a flood.

I think what Paddler was getting at is that some people on this forum feel that the company 'owes' them something...information, chances to see the car, etc., simply based on their $500 deposit.

Most of us understand that when you're trying to do what Aptera is trying to do, it's a long process, filled with setbacks, long days, etc. The LAST thing Aptera should do is take valuable time to cater to the vocal minority.

Having said THAT, I DO feel that Aptera can have a better PR department. Even if their response was a canned "Sorry, we can't talk about that" or "We apologize, but the final decision on that feature has yet to be made"....ANYTHING is better than silence.

Will the company fold? Maybe.
Am I hopeful that the Aptera will be what they're claiming? VERY.
If Aptera became vaporware and my $500 never refunded, would it break me? Nope.
Would I consider it a lesson learned? Yep.
Would I be disappointed? A little.
Would I walk away feeling like I had been a small part of something that ALMOST was the coolest thing out there? You bet.

Like anything, the decision to deposit your $500 is made individually. Same for the reason to ask for a refund. I remain excited about the idea and the possibilities, so I will leave my $500 in the pot to secure my place in line.

[popnfresh]

I think what Paddler was getting at is that some people on this forum feel that the company 'owes' them something...information, chances to see the car, etc., simply based on their $500 deposit.

Most of us understand that when you're trying to do what Aptera is trying to do, it's a long process, filled with setbacks, long days, etc. The LAST thing Aptera should do is take valuable time to cater to the vocal minority.

Having said THAT, I DO feel that Aptera can have a better PR department. Even if their response was a canned "Sorry, we can't talk about that" or "We apologize, but the final decision on that feature has yet to be made"....ANYTHING is better than silence.

Will the company fold? Maybe.
Am I hopeful that the Aptera will be what they're claiming? VERY.
If Aptera became vaporware and my $500 never refunded, would it break me? Nope.
Would I consider it a lesson learned? Yep.
Would I be disappointed? A little.
Would I walk away feeling like I had been a small part of something that ALMOST was the coolest thing out there? You bet.

Like anything, the decision to deposit your $500 is made individually. Same for the reason to ask for a refund. I remain excited about the idea and the possibilities, so I will leave my $500 in the pot to secure my place in line.

First of all, your $500 should be safe even if Aptera goes under because it's in escrow. Secondly, yes I do feel entitled to something from Aptera. I feel entitled to information. I feel that since I demonstrated good faith, took the risk and put my money where my mouth is, I'm entitled to be kept in the loop and told WTF is going on. But even this small courtesy seems to be lost on them. No, $500 is not a lot of money, but the faith and trust it represents is not trivial, and I feel that Aptera has betrayed my faith in them, and THAT'S why I'm on the cusp of asking for my deposit back and why I would encourage other depositors to do likewise. This is NOT the way to conduct a business. It has nothing to do with not being excited by the idea of a green car. It's about Aperta not being able to follow through on that idea.

[wolfdoggy]

First of all, your $500 should be safe even if Aptera goes under because it's in escrow. Secondly, yes I do feel entitled to something from Aptera. I feel entitled to information. I feel that since I demonstrated good faith, took the risk and put my money where my mouth is, I'm entitled to be kept in the loop and told WTF is going on. But even this small courtesy seems to be lost on them. No, $500 is not a lot of money, but the faith and trust it represents is not trivial, and I feel that Aptera has betrayed my faith in them, and THAT'S why I'm on the cusp of asking for my deposit back and why I would encourage other depositors to do likewise. This is NOT the way to conduct a business. It has nothing to do with not being excited by the idea of a green car. It's about Aperta not being able to follow through on that idea.

You have to be kidding me! Good faith? Money where your mouth is? Risk?! Hello! You simply held $500 from your credit card in escro with absolutely NO RISK! You took no risk what so ever! I don't really need to say anything more. Please examine with a little reality what you are saying. Aptera is doing a good job and they do not need to give out any information. Things are going alony normal. If you don't trust them you should just take your money back out of escrow. Nothing lost.

JMHO

[popnfresh]

You have to be kidding me! Good faith? Money where your mouth is? Risk?! Hello! You simply held $500 from your credit card in escro with absolutely NO RISK! You took no risk what so ever! I don't really need to say anything more. Please examine with a little reality what you are saying. Aptera is doing a good job and they do not need to give out any information. Things are going alony normal. If you don't trust them you should just take your money back out of escrow. Nothing lost.

JMHO
Umm, maybe you don't pay off your credit cards, but I pay off mine. That's real money I could have invested, but instead Aptera gets to keep the interest from my and everyone else's deposit. We're not getting our interest back no matter what. You're right, it's not really a risk per se. It's more like money down the drain. I still say that, if nothing else, Aptera owes us depositors the courtesy of keeping us informed. In fact, they PROMISED to do just that! They promised that depositors would be receive emails and insider information unavailable to the general public, and for the first few months last year they more or less came through. And then it all stopped. Except for the sightings tours, 2009 has been pretty devoid of new, real information. They've been shopping around the same old prototypes and that's pretty much it. And the sighting tours themselves were a joke. I went to the one in Palo Alto and I spoke to every Aptera representative there. They gave me zero hard facts--NOTHING. The product brochure they were handing out was totally bogus. There's not one thing about the car specs in that brochure that Aptera is willing to commit to. Not one. However, they did say that the car will look different than the photos in the product brochure. HUH??? And this is for a car they "hope" to start delivering in 5 months? We know far more hard facts about the Chevy Volt, which is still at least a year away, than we do about the Aptera 2e.

[evmavin]

Umm, maybe you don't pay off your credit cards, but I pay off mine. That's real money I could have invested, but instead Aptera gets to keep the interest from my and everyone else's deposit. We're not getting our interest back no matter what. You're right, it's not really a risk per se. It's more like money down the drain. I still say that, if nothing else, Aptera owes us depositors the courtesy of keeping us informed. In fact, they PROMISED to do just that! They promised that depositors would be receive emails and insider information unavailable to the general public, and for the first few months last year they more or less came through. And then it all stopped. Except for the sightings tours, 2009 has been pretty devoid of new, real information. They've been shopping around the same old prototypes and that's pretty much it. And the sighting tours themselves were a joke. I went to the one in Palo Alto and I spoke to every Aptera representative there. They gave me zero hard facts--NOTHING. The product brochure they were handing out was totally bogus. There's not one thing about the car specs in that brochure that Aptera is willing to commit to. Not one. However, they did say that the car will look different than the photos in the product brochure. HUH??? And this is for a car they "hope" to start delivering in 5 months? We know far more hard facts about the Chevy Volt, which is still at least a year away, than we do about the Aptera 2e.


Yes- they did promise several items and then not only did they not deliver, they ended all communication. This is the worst thing a company can do to build mistrust, but this is a reflection on inexperienced marketing people and a quick way to establish poor brand integrity. Defending these very poor business practices would get one a failing grade in business or marketing 101. They don't need to reveal any details but from a business perspective they should have at least mentioned that the newsletters were going away. If they release the car it's going to have to be as good or better than the prototypes or it will become a tough sell.

[popnfresh]

I hope I'm wrong about Aptera, but everything that's been happening this year leads me to believe otherwise. When they revealed early in the year that the car was now front-wheel drive I knew something was terribly wrong. To go back and completely re-engineer a car midway through the development cycle is bad news. Going from being a rear wheel drive train to front-wheel changes everything about the car, and it astounds me that they didn't figure this out much earlier.

The need to go back and redesign the doors and body so that the windows could roll down was another worrisome indicator. What were they thinking? The original concept called for sealed windows, meaning that when you needed to pay a highway toll, take a parking garage ticket or order at a fast food take out window you would have to open the door!

Couple those serious design blunders with their stonewalling and the fact that we're in a very weak economy and it suggests that Aptera may be in deep trouble financially. For me, this is not about my 500 bucks; this is about a company not following through on its promises. My hope is that someone at Aptera checks this forum occasionally and will see that discontent is brewing amongst its supporters. Then if we're really lucky it will prompt them to be more open with us. But I'm not holding my breath.

[JimmyDreams]

I hope I'm wrong about Aptera, but everything that's been happening this year leads me to believe otherwise. When they revealed early in the year that the car was now front-wheel drive I knew something was terribly wrong. To go back and completely re-engineer a car midway through the development cycle is bad news. Going from being a rear wheel drive train to front-wheel changes everything about the car, and it astounds me that they didn't figure this out much earlier.

The need to go back and redesign the doors and body so that the windows could roll down was another worrisome indicator. What were they thinking? The original concept called for sealed windows, meaning that when you needed to pay a highway toll, take a parking garage ticket or order at a fast food take out window you would have to open the door!

Couple those serious design blunders with their stonewalling and the fact that we're in a very weak economy and it suggests that Aptera may be in deep trouble financially. For me, this is not about my 500 bucks; this is about a company not following through on its promises. My hope is that someone at Aptera checks this forum occasionally and will see that discontent is brewing amongst its supporters. Then if we're really lucky it will prompt them to be more open with us. But I'm not holding my breath.

Redesigns are a part of life, ESPECIALLY when you're starting from scratch on such a wildly different concept. The roll down windows were added to the mix AFTER we all screamed about it. So Aptera DOES listen to us, just not in every way. I'm fine with that.

I said they need a new/better/more proactive PR department, and I stand by that.

But consider this: early on, before anyone could even SEE the car, they had to sign non-disclosure statements. I'm guessing that Aptera has a lot of proprietary research that they'd rather not just give to their competitors. You can do a TON of re-engineering from just viewing a single photograph. Is it possible that some of Aptera's investors feel the same way about information leaks and as such, Aptera is being told to keep a tight lip on EVERYTHING? I think that's plausible.

As to their spec sheets and what they 'wouldn't' tell you at Palo Alto. Let me get this straight....you would be happier if they told you whatever you wanted to hear, knowing that it was BS? Yeah, I'd be happier with solid info, but in light of what they're doing and how they're going about it, they've been secretive from day one. I wasn't worried about it then, I'm not worried about it now.

If you're that unhappy, take your $500 back and be done with it. It sounds to ME like you're trying to convince yourself that it's the right thing to do, and that you won't be left in the dark if they actually release the car that you want. Sorry, I can't help you there. I'd venture a guess that MOST of the people on the waiting list do not exhibit lemming-like behavior. You're probably not telling anyone anything they haven't already figured out for themselves.

I won't convince you I'm right, so please stop trying to tell me I'm wrong. Stay, go, refund, or not. It's your choice. :wavey:

[popnfresh]

Redesigns are a part of life, ESPECIALLY when you're starting from scratch on such a wildly different concept. The roll down windows were added to the mix AFTER we all screamed about it. So Aptera DOES listen to us, just not in every way. I'm fine with that.

I said they need a new/better/more proactive PR department, and I stand by that.

But consider this: early on, before anyone could even SEE the car, they had to sign non-disclosure statements. I'm guessing that Aptera has a lot of proprietary research that they'd rather not just give to their competitors. You can do a TON of re-engineering from just viewing a single photograph. Is it possible that some of Aptera's investors feel the same way about information leaks and as such, Aptera is being told to keep a tight lip on EVERYTHING? I think that's plausible.

As to their spec sheets and what they 'wouldn't' tell you at Palo Alto. Let me get this straight....you would be happier if they told you whatever you wanted to hear, knowing that it was BS? Yeah, I'd be happier with solid info, but in light of what they're doing and how they're going about it, they've been secretive from day one. I wasn't worried about it then, I'm not worried about it now.

If you're that unhappy, take your $500 back and be done with it. It sounds to ME like you're trying to convince yourself that it's the right thing to do, and that you won't be left in the dark if they actually release the car that you want. Sorry, I can't help you there. I'd venture a guess that MOST of the people on the waiting list do not exhibit lemming-like behavior. You're probably not telling anyone anything they haven't already figured out for themselves.

I won't convince you I'm right, so please stop trying to tell me I'm wrong. Stay, go, refund, or not. It's your choice. :wavey:
Sorry, but I'm going to continue to make a fuss until Aptera lives up to their commitment. I want them to do what they already promised to do: keep me informed. They haven't done that. And I certainly wouldn't be happier if they told me something I knew was BS. It's nonsense that this late in the game Aptera's investors would suddenly tell them to shut up. With only 5 months to go before they supposedly start rolling off the factory floor, the total absence of real facts about the car is inexcusable. I can't think of another car company that has been as tight-lipped about an upcoming product so close to release. This is beyond mere secrecy to protect intellectual property. In the beginning of this whole process, sure, some secrecy was understandable. We're WAY beyond that point now. Aptera has broken the promise it made to depositors and I'll continue to make a scene about it until they make good. If you don't like it... tough!

[JimmyDreams]

Well, ok. Good luck with that.

[tranhv68]

Well, ok. Good luck with that.

Jimmy,

I think you're absolutely right. Look what happened with the 3rd gen prius. It now has solar panels to run the ac. Gee, where did I hear about that? Only years ago from aptera. I think aptera needs to keep their info to themselves so that a lot of their innovative features isn't copied by larger companies with larger R&D budgets who can pour billions of dollars into getting the technology out earlier. I totally believe in aptera. I just hope more people drop off the reservation list so I can move up. It won't affect sales because those people will eventually get one anyway, but much later.:aptera:

[scottsim]

, Hi

WE will be sending new newsletter coming soon, so stay tuned…

Thank you for your interest in Aptera!

Best Regards,

ray segismar | aptera
carlsbad, ca 92010


www.aptera.com


This after I had send a message (to the "family" email) that , "no news was bad news" and that many need a new jolt of faith...

Scott
#159 2e

[paddler13]

Popnfresh, you're going to continue to "make a fuss"...in here? You're going to subject us to your whining because Aptera isn't doing what you think they should be doing? You just joined here, you haven't participated before and you offered nothing to this forum until you came in here whining.

Gosh, I can't imagine why people are miffed at you...

(hint: this isn't Aptera, it's just a forum for people interested in Aptera)

[popnfresh]

Popnfresh, you're going to continue to "make a fuss"...in here? You're going to subject us to your whining because Aptera isn't doing what you think they should be doing? You just joined here, you haven't participated before and you offered nothing to this forum until you came in here whining.

Gosh, I can't imagine why people are miffed at you...

(hint: this isn't Aptera, it's just a forum for people interested in Aptera)
I've made myself clear. This has nothing to do with what I think they should be doing and everything to do with what they themselves promised to do. And so what if I've just joined this forum? I've been an Aptera supporter and depositor for over a year and a half. I could care less if the fanboys here are pissed at me. I'm doing them all a favor by complaining. Somebody has to do it.

That said, now that Aptera has announced that a new newsletter will be sent out soon, I'm going to wait and see what it says before I go any further. Nobody will be happier than me if it contains some real information this time.

[randyd]

I could care less if the fanboys here are pissed at me. I'm doing them all a favor by complaining. Somebody has to do it.

No. Nobody has to complain here. You choose to complain here.

This forum has been pleasantly free of flame wars and juvenile bickering (and name-calling) for the year that I have been an active member. To protect the high "signal to noise ratio" of this Forum, I would vote in favor of banning anyone who marginalizes the value of this Forum by only complaining.

Please recognize that the Forum is not the Company. Complain to them, if you wish to, not to us.

[DonC]

To protect the high "signal to noise ratio" of this Forum, I would vote in favor of banning anyone who marginalizes the value of this Forum by only complaining. .
Just ignore the complaining if you don't like it. That's easy enough. I thought Jimmy had more or less put it to bed with his comment.

[APTERA 2356]

If he has a problem with the way Aptera handles it's information an email to Aptera may be more usefull than complaining to the forum.

If I had it my way we would have all taken delivery and be driving it now.

but like life in general I dont get my way often, so like everyone else I must wait or get my money back and buy another vehicle.

[popnfresh]

No. Nobody has to complain here. You choose to complain here.

This forum has been pleasantly free of flame wars and juvenile bickering (and name-calling) for the year that I have been an active member. To protect the high "signal to noise ratio" of this Forum, I would vote in favor of banning anyone who marginalizes the value of this Forum by only complaining.

Please recognize that the Forum is not the Company. Complain to them, if you wish to, not to us.

I'm not complaining to you, I'm complaining about them and I'm doing it here, because I think I deserve to be heard in a public forum. If this forum is only for the venting of starry-eyed adulation for Aptera, then it's useless. If you can't stand someone shaking things up a bit around here, then maybe it's you who should leave. The truth is that there are lot of "fanboys" here who can't stand it when anyone says anything critical about Aptera and they react with shrill denuciations without thinking.

And now that Aptera has finally released their latest so-called "newsletter", I'm back and I'm madder than ever. Hello boys! Miss me?

[evmavin]

I'm not complaining to you, I'm complaining about them and I'm doing it here, because I think I deserve to be heard in a public forum. If this forum is only for the venting of starry-eyed adulation for Aptera, then it's useless. If you can't stand someone shaking things up a bit around here, then maybe it's you who should leave. The truth is that there are lot of "fanboys" here who can't stand it when anyone says anything critical about Aptera and they react with shrill denuciations without thinking.

And now that Aptera has finally released their latest so-called "newsletter", I'm back and I'm madder than ever. Hello boys! Miss me?


You are entitled to your opinion, keep in mind that there are people on this forum who will buy the car even if it had bright purple seats and was painted orange and are not always objective or critical thinking. There is a mix of opinions here and everyone should be heard and it's not all starry-eyed individuals.

[popnfresh]

You are entitled to your opinion, keep in mind that there are people on this forum who will buy the car even if it had bright purple seats and was painted orange and are not always objective or critical thinking. There is a mix of opinions here and everyone should be heard and it's not all starry-eyed individuals.
Yes, of course. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how strong. And I don't indulge in ad hominem attacks. When I use the term "fanboy" I'm not naming anyone specifically.

[DonC]

And now that Aptera has finally released their latest so-called "newsletter", I'm back and I'm madder than ever. Hello boys! Miss me?
A diversity of opinion is invariably a good thing. So welcome back. No reason to get the blood pressure up over a newsletter though. Wait for the production delay! :happy0017:

[popnfresh]

I do it deliberately in the hope that someone from Aptera is checking in occasionally.

[paddler13]

And your feedback is expressed in such a constructive manner...

[iwannaptera]

Keep in mind that there are people on this forum who will buy the car even if it had bright purple seats and was painted orange and are not always objective or critical thinking. There is a mix of opinions here and everyone should be heard and it's not all starry-eyed individuals.

Hmmm. I would definitely buy the vehicle if it had bright purple seats and was painted orange.

I guess I really do believe in form over function. I just don't give a damn what the vehicle looks like.

I want <200Wh/mi. I want >200mpge for the 2h. I want practical. I want affordable. I want reliable. I want 100mi/charge.

Every time I read some comment about the supposedly "bloated underbelly" or the supposedly "pregnant look", or that so and so won't buy it because it now "has mirrors", or that the rear quarter windows "ruin the lines" of the vehicle, I just shake my head in disbelief.

How can any of that matter? Make the vehicle efficient, safe, low cost and reliable. I guess I'll add comfortable too.

By the time aptera has enough revenue to have to worry about the "mainstream" buyer who cares more about fashion than the environment or our dependence on foreign oil (aka funding terrorists), they can come out with a version 3 that tweaks those details. I'd wager that most of those who are signed up on the waiting list and serious about purchasing are more interested in the function rather than the form.

[JimmyDreams]

I'll add this:

I bought a new Ford Escape Hybrid this week. Watching the miles fly by with such tiny movement in the gas needle REALLY makes me glad I bought the car. Higher gas mileage = no buyers remorse.

And seeing this, I can scarcely imagine what I'll be thinking and feeling if I have to stop at ZERO gas stations! Imagine NOT having to reach for your wallet once or twice a week?!?!? Pure bliss!

Yeah, put me down in that 'function over form' group. Just like my choices in music and entertainment aren't for everyone, neither will the Aptera be for everyone.

I'm fine with that.

:)

[evmavin]

Hmmm. I would definitely buy the vehicle if it had bright purple seats and was painted orange.

I guess I really do believe in form over function. I just don't give a damn what the vehicle looks like.

I want <200Wh/mi. I want >200mpge for the 2h. I want practical. I want affordable. I want reliable. I want 100mi/charge.

Every time I read some comment about the supposedly "bloated underbelly" or the supposedly "pregnant look", or that so and so won't buy it because it now "has mirrors", or that the rear quarter windows "ruin the lines" of the vehicle, I just shake my head in disbelief.

How can any of that matter? Make the vehicle efficient, safe, low cost and reliable. I guess I'll add comfortable too.

By the time aptera has enough revenue to have to worry about the "mainstream" buyer who cares more about fashion than the environment or our dependence on foreign oil (aka funding terrorists), they can come out with a version 3 that tweaks those details. I'd wager that most of those who are signed up on the waiting list and serious about purchasing are more interested in the function rather than the form.


Perhaps you did not consider that Aptera does not have a huge demand for the vehicle demonstrated now, if they did the windows would not need to roll down and there would be no cup holders. As a business with investors they need to appeal to the largest number of people who will buy the car, you may buy a car with purple seats but it won't sell to most and that's what they need. I can promise you that if an ugly square box was twice as efficient, safer and more reliable as an Aptera more people would buy the Aptera. You can buy the box but you and a small group of others won't keep the box car company in business. And if you don't think the looks of the Aptera are key to it's sales in this new market where people need to be won over, it's because it only does not matter to you, the majority think otherwise and there is a long auto history to prove that. This will also define the initial excitement for further and future sales. The first thing the majority of non-green die hards and people who are not efficiency or economy misers say about the car is "it looks cool" "it looks cute", etc, etc. This forum represents the fringe following far more then the large number of mass purchasers the company will target. To be more specific, when you get Aptera and you are in a gas station tell interested individuals it gets 200 wh/mi per mile and watch the blank look on their face and then ask yourself again how any of that can matter:)

[micah67]

This smacks of evasiveness and the kind of stonewalling I would expect from a scam, not a legitimate business. I'm getting my money back and buying a car that actually exists.

You created an account to start this thread? Rather obvious troll...

[turbo wing]

You created an account to start this thread? Rather obvious troll...


What's wrong with you guys that call us guys trolls for pointing out things although negative but true, why don't you man up and accept the truth instead of calling us names, we fight for freedom of speech and then criticize those with the guts to tell the ugly truth, if you can't handle the truth then go read something ells

[jstdadd]

popnfresh put his money down on a deposit. He then, according to his words, says that Aptera appears to be "a scam, not a legitimate business."

I can see his negative, but I do not see the truth in his statement. Can you offer further insight into the truth of his statements? We would be happy to hear anything other than groundless ridicule.

[turbo wing]

popnfresh put his money down on a deposit. He then, according to his words, says that Aptera appears to be "a scam, not a legitimate business."

I can see his negative, but I do not see the truth in his statement. Can you offer further insight into the truth of his statements? We would be happy to hear anything other than groundless ridicule.

Let me answer this with a question or two

How many times has the delivery date been pushed back

What happened to the first price that was offered and now climbing

On one of your first videos we were told of a small generator supposedly in each car and now it seems more like an expensive option if you can even find a place to put it

The delivery dates, costs and options i.e. generator are moving targets, that's not very reassuring


These are legitimate reasons for concern don't you think

[jstdadd]

Answering a question with "a question or two" is not answering a question.

The delivery date has been pushed back innumerable times.

The first price that was offered, to me at least, was $27,500 for a 2e. I bet by the time my Aptera 2e is built I can buy one at that price (1 Oggi's pizza is bet.) For some people seeing a price range of $25,000 - $40,000 means that the price went up. I don't get it. If I get leather seats instead of the recycled soda bottle seats, I expect to pay more. If I get fire-engine-red instead of white, I expect to pay more. If I get a Bose premium sound system, I expect to pay more. Don't you?

Please send me a link to the video - I seem to have missed that one. Only the 2h will have a small onboard generator, is that what you are referring to?

I don't know an electric vehicle manufacturer that is still in business that has not moved its initial delivery date - and has delivered anything. Can you give me a reference to the manufacturer that you are comparing Aptera to?

And...still waiting for the answer to the original question: can you offer further insight as to the truth of his statements?

[turbo wing]

Answering a question with "a question or two" is not answering a question. you'd be surprised

The delivery date has been pushed back innumerable times.

The first price that was offered, to me at least, was $27,500 for a 2e. I bet by the time my Aptera 2e is built I can buy one at that price (1 Oggi's pizza is bet.) For some people seeing a price range of $25,000 - $40,000 means that the price went up. I don't get it. If I get leather seats instead of the recycled soda bottle seats, I expect to pay more. If I get fire-engine-red instead of white, I expect to pay more. If I get a Bose premium sound system, I expect to pay more. Don't you?

Please send me a link to the video - In my spare time I will indeed look for it I seem to have missed that one. Only the 2h will have a small onboard generator, is that what you are referring to?

I don't know an electric vehicle manufacturer that is still in business that has not moved its initial delivery date - and has delivered anything. Can you give me a reference to the manufacturer that you are comparing Aptera to? I don't recall referring to any manufacture however most companies don't offer something they don't already have

And...still waiting for the answer to the original question: can you offer further insight as to the truth of his statements? I believe it speaks for it's self

[jstdadd]

turbo-wing: you are ponderous.

[KarenRei]

Turbo wing, I don't get your response. What are you trying to say?

[micah67]

...calling us names, we fight for freedom of speech and then criticize those with the guts to tell the ugly truth...

Why, yes: I'm exercising my freedom of speech, too. Me thinks thou protests too much.

Look, I don't own this forum and I apologize if I am out of line. I enjoy it's benefits, albeit mostly as a lurker these past several months: I enjoy learning more about an upcoming vehicle that has captivated me since I first saw it. I enjoy the discussions, the speculations, the voiced disappointments. the pictures and videos, and the possibilities this vehicle and company proposes.

I also enjoy the group camaraderie. The "buzz". The anticipation. I understand this is a process, that schedules slip: products evolve. But I am still captivated. It is directly due to this forum that I put a deposit down.

I have also learned that your message, no matter how sincere, gets lost if you act like a troll.

[turbo wing]

turbo-wing: you are ponderous.

Why thank you :)

[speculawyer]

Meh. I think they just underestimated what it takes to bring a vehicle to market.

I don't think there is any financial trouble . . . at least not yet. They'll have trouble if when they get the Aptera to market it flops.

Personally, I think that when the oil market crashed, they slowed down in order to perfect the vehicle more, wait for oil prices to rise, wait for battery prices to drop, and wait for the economy to recover a bit. Last year oil was down to $30 a barrel and gas could be found for $1.50 in places. But now oil is around $70/barrel and gas is $3/gallon where I live. And I think the Aptera will be a nice vehicle for Californians that have installed PV systems since they'll have the pride of fueling their commute purely from rays of sun hitting their roof.

[turbo wing]

My personal opinion not that it maters is that Aptera has done a hell of a job on there design and as time goes on you will see other companies turning
to extreme designs like the Aptera and the eVaro
Aptera and FVT are the only true pioneers today, stretching the boundaries in aerodynamics and key technologies to go as far and as clean as possible while keeping creature comforts and performance on the top of list of must haves,
Yes I vent my frustration here but only towards Management and a few blind sheep, don't get me wrong I know any company start up will be a long tuff road, so the ups and downs they are going thru are to be expected, however when one is not carful about what they promise, you can be assured of some negative feed back

[DonC]

Meh. I think they just underestimated what it takes to bring a vehicle to market.

I don't think there is any financial trouble . . . at least not yet. They'll have trouble if when they get the Aptera to market it flops.
Yeah, they miscalculated. Not completely surprising. One, they weren't car people and didn't have much background in the industry. Two, they're entrepreneurs, and by definition entrepreneurs are wildly optimistic.

There are financial problems and Bill Gross from Idealabs has more or less explained what those are. To make the 2e for the price point they want to hit they need to have more volume, to get that volume they need financing, and they can't get financing.

[JimmyDreams]

There are financial problems and Bill Gross from Idealabs has more or less explained what those are. To make the 2e for the price point they want to hit they need to have more volume, to get that volume they need financing, and they can't get financing.

And you read this where?

[turbo wing]

Yeah, they miscalculated. Not completely surprising. One, they weren't car people and didn't have much background in the industry. Two, they're entrepreneurs, and by definition entrepreneurs are wildly optimistic.

There are financial problems and Bill Gross from Idealabs has more or less explained what those are. To make the 2e for the price point they want to hit they need to have more volume, to get that volume they need financing, and they can't get financing.

Remember there were some comments made about FVT not being a real car company? some on here suggested they don't have the money to go into production, I made the comment that FVT had spent under 1 million to date, (This was on there web site), and that they have already produced a version with an on board generator, I think my point at that time was not that FVT doesn't have money but that they haven't spent much to get were they are, I realize Apter and FVT are both entrepreneurs but why such a widely different amount spent to date for essentially the same number of prototypes, at the end of the day who do you think will go into full production first, not that it maters, I here Aptera has acquired some were around 80 million from investors but how much of that have they actually spent to date, also if they can't get more money what will happen to there production plans

[turbo wing]

One more note to keep in mind that will help all these small start up companies, after the X Prize Race and all the high profile exposure it will receive, any one in the race win or loos if they are up there in the first ten to finish they will have new investors banging there doors down.

The winner of this race only needs to get 101 mpg, and finish first to win, it doesn't mater if you get 600 mpg if you don't finish first you wont win but the exposure will be worth more then the 2.5 million prize

[jstdadd]

It's nice to see that the 'ignore list' grows when you add people to it. It was going to be too small if it only allowed three names.

[turbo wing]

It's nice to see that the 'ignore list' grows when you add people to it. It was going to be too small if it only allowed three names.

:)another highly intelligent comment

[KarenRei]

Okay, one more combative post and the thread gets closed. Let's play nice. ;)

[paddler13]

Every morning when I log on I marvel that this thread is even still here.

[KarenRei]

I had been marveling the same thing until I remembered that I'm a mod. ;)

[paddler13]

Ah, a member of the Mod Squad, fighting thread abuse. Excellent.

[DonC]

And you read this where?
Can't really remember Jimmy. It was maybe five or six months ago. It was written and he was very straightforward. Perhaps it was just how bad things were going but he made the point about funding sans the usual BS. But the fact that Aptera needs money is is not exactly hard to figure out. To make a car you need custom parts, to get custom parts at a decent price you need volume, and to get volume you need some real money. Here's an article that basically says the same thing:

http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/03/25/googles-favorite-car-company/

The relevant part would be: "Google didn’t say how much money went into each company but it’s not a lot of dough in any event. Aptera has also raised money from Idealab, Esenjay Petroleum, The Quercus Trust and from Donald R. Beal, the retired chairman and CEO of Rockwell, about $30 million in total. But the company obviously needs a lot more to go into production." [Emphasis supplied]

[KarenRei]

http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/03/25/googles-favorite-car-company/

The relevant part would be: "Google didn’t say how much money went into each company but it’s not a lot of dough in any event. Aptera has also raised money from Idealab, Esenjay Petroleum, The Quercus Trust and from Donald R. Beal, the retired chairman and CEO of Rockwell, about $30 million in total. But the company obviously needs a lot more to go into production." [Emphasis supplied]

Well, if "MarcGunther.com" says it...

[DonC]

Well, if "MarcGunther.com" says it...
Yeah, it's important to get a great source for establishing that 2+2=4. Let's see, Tesla needed $465M in order to produce the Model S, and that was after spending $185M engineering and building the first EV. Do you think Aptera can produce the first one in volume for $30M?

It doesn't take a genius to know that in order to make a car affordable you need to get good prices on parts, that you can only get good prices on parts if you order in volume, and that in order to produce in volume you need some bucks. Aptera doesn't have the luxury of selling a car for $120K, a price that lets you build in small volume. What part/parts of this is/are so mysterious?

[KarenRei]

Yeah, it's important to get a great source for establishing that 2+2=4. Let's see, Tesla needed $465M in order to produce the Model S, and that was after spending $185M engineering and building the first EV. Do you think Aptera can produce the first one in volume for $30M?

1) Apparently Tesla is the same company as Aptera.
2) Apparently the Model S is the same vehicle as the Aptera 2e.
3) Apparently the Model S production has the same scaleup rate as Aptera 2e production.
4) Apparently the Model S has the same tooling requirements as the Aptera 2e.
5) Apparently the Model S has the same federal testing requirements as the Aptera 2e.
6) While the quote function didn't quote it, I was mainly responding to your argument that "they can't get funding", which is obviously pure spec on the part of you and "MarcGunther.com".

As for the price of their first EV, that was because Tesla messed up in their business plan, requiring a complete reengineer and having them have to pay penalties to Lotus. And it's a car, which means more federal overhead. And it's a more expensive vehicle. And they have a more complex battery pack.

Nobody is disputing that Aptera is fundraising, as they've announced that publicly. What is in dispute is your claim that they need an amount of money that they can't raise. You have no evidence of that; you're just asserting it.

[evmavin]

1) Apparently Tesla is the same company as Aptera.
2) Apparently the Model S is the same vehicle as the Aptera 2e.
3) Apparently the Model S production has the same scaleup rate as Aptera 2e production.
4) Apparently the Model S has the same tooling requirements as the Aptera 2e.
5) Apparently the Model S has the same federal testing requirements as the Aptera 2e.
6) While the quote function didn't quote it, I was mainly responding to your argument that "they can't get funding", which is obviously pure spec on the part of you and "MarcGunther.com".

As for the price of their first EV, that was because Tesla messed up in their business plan, requiring a complete reengineer and having them have to pay penalties to Lotus. And it's a car, which means more federal overhead. And it's a more expensive vehicle. And they have a more complex battery pack.

Nobody is disputing that Aptera is fundraising, as they've announced that publicly. What is in dispute is your claim that they need an amount of money that they can't raise. You have no evidence of that; you're just asserting it.


Thank you for saving me the typing. Some of these points are huge cost centers that could surpass many of Aptera's combined. You also forgot to mention marketing and PR costs.

[aptera1213]

'cus lord knows aptera is saving money on PR costs... ;)

[DonC]

1) Apparently Tesla is the same company as Aptera.
2) Apparently the Model S is the same vehicle as the Aptera 2e.
3) Apparently the Model S production has the same scaleup rate as Aptera 2e production.
4) Apparently the Model S has the same tooling requirements as the Aptera 2e.
5) Apparently the Model S has the same federal testing requirements as the Aptera 2e.
6) While the quote function didn't quote it, I was mainly responding to your argument that "they can't get funding", which is obviously pure spec on the part of you and "MarcGunther.com".

As for the price of their first EV, that was because Tesla messed up in their business plan, requiring a complete reengineer and having them have to pay penalties to Lotus. And it's a car, which means more federal overhead. And it's a more expensive vehicle. And they have a more complex battery pack.

Nobody is disputing that Aptera is fundraising, as they've announced that publicly. What is in dispute is your claim that they need an amount of money that they can't raise. You have no evidence of that; you're just asserting it.
Tesla says it needs $500M to produce a sedan. Bright Automotive says it needs $500M to produce a van. GM says it will spend $1B producing the Volt. Given that most of the differences you raise relate to incremental costs, not the capital costs we're talking about, what you are essentially claiming is that (1) tooling and testing will require $500M; and (2) other costs of producing the vehicles will be negligible.

[DonC]

Thank you for saving me the typing. Some of these points are huge cost centers that could surpass many of Aptera's combined. You also forgot to mention marketing and PR costs.
Points 1,2, and 6 are irrelevant to pretty much anything. At the very least they don't involve any "cost centers". Points 3 and 4, ramp up and tooling, are relevant but prove the opposite of what you're claiming. The reason Tesla and Bright need to "tool up" so they can "ramp up" is that you can't make a vehicle cheaply unless you can move volume. That's the problem Aptera has. Without sufficient funding it can't "tool up" and "ramp up", and if it can't do this then you're looking at a lame vehicle or an expensive vehicle or, most probably, both.

Point 6, that Aptera doesn't need to do testing, is true and to some extent significant. But crash testing is not a $500M cost, and to some extent the importance of Aptera not being required to test is mitigated by the fact that Aptera has promised to do the testing in any event.

[KarenRei]

Tesla says it needs $500M to produce a sedan. Bright Automotive says it needs $500M to produce a van. GM says it will spend $1B producing the Volt.

1) Apparently Bright Automotive is the same company as Aptera.
2) Apparently the Idea is the same vehicle as the Aptera 2e.
3) Apparently the Idea production has the same scaleup rate as Aptera 2e production.
4) Apparently the Idea has the same tooling requirements as the Aptera 2e.
5) Apparently the Idea has the same federal testing requirements as the Aptera 2e.
6) Pick and choose all you want; I can do the same. Brammo used $10m (plus the "few million" from Best Buy) to make the Enertia. Wait -- it's not a car, you say? Well, neither is the 2e.

You need to quit comparing non-equivalent vehicles. It's not even built out of the same stuff. For example, a lot of GM's tooling consists of making the machines to stamp parts out of steel. That sounds easier than it actually is, because after you stamp out a part, it partially relaxes in an unpredictable manner. So they make different molds and try them out until they consistently produce parts of a proper shape. How much does that sound to you like what Aptera is doing? It's an entirely different set of engineering challenges. Given that they're working with composites, I'm a lot more concerned with Aptera's labor costs (incremental) than their tooling costs (upfront).

Without sufficient funding it can't "tool up" and "ramp up"

That may or may not be true. For example, Tesla likely would have *eventually* been able to make the Model S on Roadster sales profits alone. But it would have taken many more years.

Given that most of the differences you raise relate to incremental costs, not the capital costs we're talking about, what you are essentially claiming is that (1) tooling and testing will require $500M; and (2) other costs of producing the vehicles will be negligible.-

Wait, so you *don't* think that the effort to develop a vehicle and tool its factory makes up most of the costs of bringing it to market? Then what do you think does?

[turbo wing]

I'm curios as to how much Aptera's burn rate is, not including tooling up, how much are they spending on salaries and rent etc, I know of several small aircraft manufacturers that employ the same high tech. construction technology to build there airplanes and I think you would be surprised at the relatively low cost of there tooling up in comparison to what I hear Aptera will need, also boat manufacturers use molds and the infusion process and they can tool up to produce thousands of boats but still never incur such high costs. Aptera being in the motorcycle category is not required to do the e-vap test or the crash test among many other tests required by a four wheeled vehicle, in fact I know of a company here in Anaheim that can do the certification and homologate a three wheeled vehicle for under 1.5 million, this includes virtual crash testing, I’m betting Aptera’s pay role is in the millions for the past three years

[paddler13]

Then maybe you ought to invest in that company.

There, They're, Their...please learn the difference.

[jhelms54]

The moderators need to get ahold of this post, its gotten out of hand all over this forum.

[turbo wing]

Then maybe you ought to invest in that company.

There, They're, Their...please learn the difference.


LMAO !!! Man you are so petty, not every one, like you are perfect, grow up and stop being such a spelling police man, :tongue0006: this isn't elementary school, as long as you got the message who really cares.

Just because I mention a company that could be useful doesn't mean I want to or am asking for your advise in were to invest. you are hilarious LOL

[KarenRei]

Well, while we're in grammar nazi mode, let me lighten the mood with a few links to skilled grammar nazis:

http://www.unnecessaryquotes.com/
http://www.apostropheabuse.com/
http://www.apostrophism.com/
http://cakewrecks.blogspot.com/
http://curioussigns.blogspot.com/
http://www.grammarbitches.blogspot.com/
http://thegrammarvandal.wordpress.com/
http://literally.barelyfitz.com/
http://lowercasel.blogspot.com/
http://www.passiveaggressivenotes.com/
http://sillysigns.blogspot.com/

[jhelms54]

Well that didnt help...

Let me try:

Here is my standpoint, I am pissed as a lot of people are. I am pretty sure that we wont see one in OCT.

At first I thought it would be a viable car that could be a replacement. As time has passed I have seen that it isnt that way.

I am going to hold onto my spot and see what happens. Its more or less in savings to me, earning no interest.

The Nissan LEAF has opened my eyes a bit, SD will most likely be one of the first cities to get them.

At this point its whoever can get to market a full electric car, I'll take whichever one comes first.

But I do agree, I am losing faith, but it is just a car...

[KarenRei]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Leaf bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~60 mile range vehicle under normal driving, and that the $20-33k price tag doesn't include the $10k battery pack, and that it won't be mass-produced in the US until 2012?

[jhelms54]

Yes, 60 miles would work for me. 20-30K is understandable. We'll see what happens on the battery.

Back to my point. Whoever can get there first.

[Captain_Altair]

LMAO !!! Man you are so petty, not every one, like you are perfect, grow up and stop being such a spelling police man, :tongue0006: this isn't elementary school, as long as you got the message who really cares.

Just because I mention a company that could be useful doesn't mean I want to or am asking for your advise in were to invest. you are hilarious LOL


LMAO!(ONE EXCLAMATION POINT WILL DO) Man(COMMA) you are so petty(PERIOD or EXCLAMATION POINT) (N)ot every one, like you(COMMA) (IS) perfect(PERIOD) (G)row up and stop being such a spelling policeman(ONE WORD NOT TWO)(PERIOD) :tongue0006: (T)his isn't elementary school(PERIOD or SEMI-COLON) (A or a)s long as you got the message who really cares(QUESTION MARK)

Just because I mention a company that could be useful doesn't mean I want (DELETE "TO") or am asking for your advise (ABOUT)(WHERE) to invest. (Y)ou are hilarious(PERIOD) LOL

[esmith]

1) Apparently Tesla is the same company as Aptera.
2) Apparently the Model S is the same vehicle as the Aptera 2e.
3) Apparently the Model S production has the same scaleup rate as Aptera 2e production.
4) Apparently the Model S has the same tooling requirements as the Aptera 2e.
5) Apparently the Model S has the same federal testing requirements as the Aptera 2e.
6) While the quote function didn't quote it, I was mainly responding to your argument that "they can't get funding", which is obviously pure spec on the part of you and "MarcGunther.com".


Let me lead with an example from a totally unrelated area, which is hauling heavy stuff to low earth orbit.

Main methods of doing that include Russian Protons, European Ariane-5, and the Space Shuttle. Protons are cheaper because they are made on low-wage Russian factories, Space Shuttle is somewhat over-engineered, but overall LEO costs are comparable among all three - $4,000/kg for Protons and $10,000/kg for the other two.

Note that the vast majority of this money is technology; fuel contributes no more than $100/kg.

Then comes a private company called SpaceX and it announces the development of its own, highly efficient and cheap launch platform called Falcon 9. Naturally, since SpaceX has 600 employees and NASA has 17,000, and it's not subject to the same political pressures as NASA, SpaceX can't and won't do the launch platform 100% in-house, some components will be outsourced to China. Can we wager a realistic guess as to its cost?

We can follow Karen's example and say:

1) Apparently SpaceX is the same company as NPO Energiya or NASA.
2) Apparently the Falcon 9 is the same vehicle as the Proton or the Space Shuttle.
3) Apparently the Falcon 9 production has the same scaleup rate as the Proton production.
4) Apparently the Falcon 9 has the same tooling requirements as the Proton.
5) Apparently the Falcon 9 has the same federal testing requirements as the Proton.

In other words, we know nothing and it's perfectly reasonable to expect SpaceX to launch a rocket that costs 3x the fuel (i.e. $300/kg) and so it does the same job for a small fraction of the cost.

However, when Falcon 9 is in fact revealed, it turns out that its cost is roughly on par with the Proton!

And then we can actually think a little and realize that it's not at all surprising - there are no substantial differences between the Falcon 9 and the Proton (they are both chemical rockets with bipropellant fuels), and there's no good reason to expect major inefficiencies in Proton's manufacturing process, and therefore there's no good reason to expect substantially differing prices between the two.


Back to our point, sure, Aptera 2e is not Model S ... but, unless someone can present a convincing argument, it's not at all clear why Aptera should be able to do the job with 30M when Tesla tried and failed and came to the conclusion that they need 500M.

[KarenRei]

Sorry, but your red herring won't stand. We're talking about development costs, not per-unit costs, and certainly not "costs of launch relative to fuel price". SpaceX's development costs *have* been an order of magnitude or two less than your other rocket examples. And even if we *were* talking about launch costs, their launch costs are about a third of their competitors' costs for a launch of similar payload size.

Your example just reinforces that all companies and vehicles are different.


Back to our point, sure, Aptera 2e is not Model S ... but, unless someone can present a convincing argument, it's not at all clear why Aptera should be able to do the job with 30M when Tesla tried and failed and came to the conclusion that they need 500M.

Now you're just making stuff up. Tesla did not "try and fail and come to the conclusion that they need 500M" for the Model S. Tesla has neither "tried" and "failed" with the Model S at all. And they spent nowhere near that on the Roadster, and the amount they did spend on the Roadster was largely due to A) being first, B) having to scrap almost everything they did and start over, C) having a much more expensive vehicle, D) having to meet federal safety and emissions regs, and E) having to engineer a much more complex battery pack.

[turbo wing]

Captain Altair

LOL you rock :thumbsup:

how many mistakes this time? :)

[evmavin]

I don't see how one can compare Tesla and Aptera's costs on many fronts. To develop a car like the Tesla and have it meet all the required US standards and execute and market the vehicle of that price point is not even comparable to something that can be developed with a very small crew. Tesla has completely different manufacturing processes, requirements and standards related to a full size vehicle. The cost of the test equipment alone for drivetrains and other testing is not even remotely comparable to Aptera, not the least bit. The list goes on and on...

[jhm614]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Leaf bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~60 mile range vehicle under normal driving, and that the $20-33k price tag doesn't include the $10k battery pack, and that it won't be mass-produced in the US until 2012?

Yep, I completely get that. 60 miles will work for me. My biggest concern is the total price less any tax credits -- the top of the price range is out of my budget for a commuter car.

[danieloneil01]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Leaf bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~60 mile range vehicle under normal driving, and that the $20-33k price tag doesn't include the $10k battery pack, and that it won't be mass-produced in the US until 2012?



I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Aptera bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~100 mile range vehicle under granny driving, and that the $35-45k price tag doesn't include the battery pack, and that it won't ever be mass-produced in the US?

[earther]

it's [Aptera] really only a ~100 mile range vehicle under granny driving

I'm not aware if there has been any official EPA testing for the Aptera yet. Although my impression was that their range was determined under some rather stringent real-world conditions (i.e. considerable weight in truck, multiple passengers, realistic speeds etc).

the $35-45k price tag doesn't include the battery pack

AFAIK, the lower bound on the price range is actually less than you quoted (last I heard was $24k for the most basic model). Moreover, I don't believe there's been any indication that this would not include the battery. Though personally, I would prefer to lease the battery (a la Leaf) rather than purchase it outright; I'm not certain if Aptera is going to pursue that as an option.


it won't ever be mass-produced in the US?

I suppose that all depends on what you mean by "mass produced". If Aptera gets to the stage (as they certainly indicate they plan to) of making tens of thousands per year, certainly that would qualify under any reasonable definition.

-Steve

[iwannaptera]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Aptera bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~100 mile range vehicle under granny driving, and that the $35-45k price tag doesn't include the battery pack, and that it won't ever be mass-produced in the US?

Where is this coming from?

I have never seen any indication that the aptera would not come with the battery pack. No battery pack leasing option has ever been mentioned that I am aware of.

All the indications we have received is that the range will be obtainable under normal driving with two passengers plus baggage and reasonable accessory use.

Regarding whether or not it will be mass-produced in the US is difficult to answer at this point. The aptera will either make it or it won't. If it makes it, it will almost certainly be made in the USA at least for a while. Maybe over time manufacturing might be moved to Mexico or Canada or China. Who knows.

[JimmyDreams]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Aptera bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~100 mile range vehicle under granny driving, and that the $35-45k price tag doesn't include the battery pack, and that it won't ever be mass-produced in the US?

I just want to be sure: Does everyone who is a teacher portray such baseless claims as facts ALL THE TIME, or just in this one instance?

Your suppositions are just that: groundless suppositions. Pretty definitive statements from someone who knows just as much as the rest of us. :sign0003:

[KarenRei]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Aptera bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~100 mile range vehicle under granny driving, and that the $35-45k price tag doesn't include the battery pack, and that it won't ever be mass-produced in the US?

I assume that's a joke, right? The stated price range is $25-40k; the 100 mile range is for highway driving with two passengers, full cargo, and AC (and Leno confirmed that they seemed if anything pessimistic on range); the pack is included; and production is *only* in the US (at this point), with the current facility designed to peak at 20k/year.

[NmGfan]

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Leaf bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~60 mile range vehicle under normal driving, and that the $20-33k price tag doesn't include the $10k battery pack, and that it won't be mass-produced in the US until 2012?

I just want to make sure: Does everyone on the Aptera bandwagon realize that it's really only a ~100 mile range vehicle under granny driving, and that the $35-45k price tag doesn't include the battery pack, and that it won't ever be mass-produced in the US?

Am I the only one that caught this? What's with all the alarming serious responses; the parrot is drunk. Don't let him hang around the beer keg anymore. :rolleye0018:

[KarenRei]

Am I the only one that caught this? What's with all the alarming serious responses; the parrot is drunk. Don't let him hang around the beer keg anymore. :rolleye0018:

I noticed that they were parodying my post, which is why I assumed it was a joke. But it was also kind of a flamebait post, since they were spreading false info.

[DIESELGUY]

You know I dont say much on this forum BUT......OMG could we invent anything else to B&$TCH about??? BOTTOM LINE If you want Aptera keep your deposit, If not get the F&^K out..... end of story

[BrianK]

You know I dont say much on this forum BUT......OMG could we invent anything else to B&$TCH about??? BOTTOM LINE If you want Aptera keep your deposit, If not get the F&^K out..... end of story
Now that you mention it... how's about making a single rear seat, Aptera? :D

[DIESELGUY]

You are kidding me right??

[scottsim]

Deposits....

Not so much the amount of the deposit (really a low % of the price), but the loss of faith, and the sense that another dream is dying...

But hey, speaking of deposits....How about a 40K deposit for a Tesla S Signature? (Car price to be in the 65-85K range)...no car due out for at least two years...it was explained to me by a Tesla guy that that is about the price range for a non-signature S with all the options....

That one hurts...