Myers Motors to unveil Two Passenger NmG on 9/23/09

[NmGfan]

...To meet these consumer requests, we’ve been investing our time with the NmG so that we can reduce costs, increase range and double seating capacity. First, we wanted to make sure we had a reliable drive system. Then, we wanted to know we had a battery pack that would fit 80% of all US driving patterns, at an affordable price, and which enabled the drivers to save money even at $1.50 per gallon gasoline … and even more when gas rises to $4.00 per gallon again. And we wanted to make sure we understood the production bottlenecks and all the little details that are necessary for you to have a fun-filled driving experience. Now that we have that figured out, it is time for us to introduce our two passenger model.

On September 23rd, we will start filling in more details about this two passenger vehicle. We believe our efforts will provide you with a more affordable option to have a fun driving experience while fulfilling your passion to live life with a bigger impact ---while making a smaller one.

Dana Myers

President http://www.myersmotors.com/

I wonder when it will be available for purchase?

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Looks like they stretched the NMG and put in tandem seating.

[Rhodomel]

The silhouette of the 2 seater car they used to tease us in their countdown media flash looks more regular faced car than the wacky NMG. It says 12 days to go, and so many hours and minutes until it is revealed...

[IanO]

It's a shame they dropped out of the Automotive X-Prize. They were one of the few experienced participants with an actual business history selling this type of vehicle.

We'll see who gets to Oregon first, NmG or Aptera.

[hill]

I'm curious how much time there'll be between the 'reveal' ... versus actual production. It's like the EV intro game is on geological time (except for Tesla, so far).

[NmGfan]

It's a shame they dropped out of the Automotive X-Prize. They were one of the few experienced participants with an actual business history selling this type of vehicle.

We'll see who gets to Oregon first, NmG or Aptera.

When did they drop out of the X-Prize? The last info I saw was the CEO handing over the final check at the Detroit Auto Show earlier this year. There wasn't any mention on their web site...

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

Looks like they stretched the NMG and put in tandem seating.

I read earlier this year that seating was going to be side-by-side, so it's stretched wider, but I don't know about a wheel-base increase. It would improve the ride comfort...

:happy0025:

[IanO]

When did they drop out of the X-Prize? The last info I saw was the CEO handing over the final check at the Detroit Auto Show earlier this year. There wasn't any mention on their web site...

:happy0025:

In the last month, X Prize entrants have been dropping like flies, faced with the deadline for submitting their 20,000 unit-per-year business plans. Sadly, Myers Motors was one of them. The current list of teams (http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams) doesn't list them. I'm guessing there will only be a few dozen teams by the time the competition actually gets underway.

[Matthijs]

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/23/revealed-myers-motors-two-seat-all-electric-nmg/

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/myers-orange-black-front_630.jpg

[evmavin]

If they are claiming 60 miles I would guess that real world with freeway is closer to 40. The bigger questions on this are:

Is it fiberglass?
It is as safe as an Aptera?
Does it have regen or is it DC and what is the power of the motor?
Standard features?
Is it still RWD and belt drive? If so regen would be greatly compromised.
Is that a real photo and what are those things behind the rims?
Delivery date?

Does not look very aero and that third light must create quite a bit of drag. The one advantage over the Aptera I can see for sure is no outriggers and not being super wide.

[KarenRei]

My take: "could have been worse."

[evmavin]

My take: "could have been worse."


Yes, very true. I'll reserve my comments until there are actual specs or a real model with delivery date but I am really doubt this vehicle at a price close to $30K will make it in the market or sell in any significant quantity to maintain a profitable business. Oops, that was a comment:)

[NmGfan]

If they are claiming 60 miles I would guess that real world with freeway is closer to 40. The bigger questions on this are:
The real world is closer to 50 miles according to their experiences with the Li pack in the current NmG.
Is it fiberglass? Almost a certainty as that is what they have the most experience with.
It is as safe as an Aptera? Good question. It's a motorcycle...
Does it have regen or is it DC and what is the power of the motor? No regen, its still the same DC drive train with Li BMS.
Standard features? ???
Is it still RWD and belt drive? If so regen would be greatly compromised. RWD belt w/o regen.
Is that a real photo and what are those things behind the rims? Disk brakes?
Delivery date? Fall 2010.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

The real world is closer to 50 miles according to their experiences with the Li pack in the current NmG.
Almost a certainty as that is what they have the most experience with.
Good question. It's a motorcycle...
No regen, its still the same DC drive train with Li BMS.
???
RWD belt w/o regen.
Disk brakes?
Fall 2010.

:happy0025:


If what you say above is fact and the price is $27-30K then RIP MYERS motor, I could not imagine paying that much for a glorified NMG with no regen, a low tech DC motor, low range and antiquated technologies and safety I would bet is far less than Aptera. Aptera has challenges in this space but in the same price point this vehicle will be a hard sell, even against four-wheel EV's. I'll take a pizza bet that they loose more money and sell only limited quantities to start if they build it and it dies out and they loose big bucks. Come on,a DC motor and what a Curtis controller or did they buy the rights to the Zilla? LOL!! Some companies just don't learn their lessons and have blind faith. I can't wait to watch this one, sad but good effort.

Oh, and fall of 2010- even more doomed!

[SEGsby]

The design could have been so much cleaner and attractive if they'd just removed the ugly snowmobile headlight in the middle. It reminds me of a Triops:

http://zoology.fns.uniba.sk/poznavacka/images/13_Triops_cancriformis.jpg

This is a case where Branding was apparently stronger than Aerodynamics or Aesthetics. The specs are not terribly impressive too. That reminds me of a ZAP! Car. :P

[paddler13]

My one question about this comes from the time I got to test drive a Sparrow years ago. Is the side of the vehicle still so close to the driver's head that a sharp turn causes the driver to crack his/her skull on the window or door post? I took one sharp turn in a Sparrow and saw stars. My first thought was that I ought to have a motorcycle helmet on to drive the thing.

[NmGfan]

If what you say above is fact and the price is $27-30K then RIP MYERS motor, I could not imagine paying that much for a glorified NMG with no regen, a low tech DC motor, low range and antiquated technologies and safety I would bet is far less than Aptera. Aptera has challenges in this space but in the same price point this vehicle will be a hard sell, even against four-wheel EV's. I'll take a pizza bet that they loose more money and sell only limited quantities to start if they build it and it dies out and they loose big bucks. Come on,a DC motor and what a Curtis controller or did they buy the rights to the Zilla? LOL!! Some companies just don't learn their lessons and have blind faith. I can't wait to watch this one, sad but good effort.

Oh, and fall of 2010- even more doomed!

I'll wait for the specifications and details when they are made public on Oct. 7th to confirm if my observations, information, and speculations are confirmed as facts before I assert anything more than I have.

One thing for sure, this company will have a challenge making a profit just like any other in this particular space. However, they are not looking for money from Uncle Sugar to scale-up manufacturing to reach national distribution, nor are they as highly leveraged with VC money. That leveraging alone means that it will be more difficult (many more units to be sold) to reach break-even and achieve profitability. And that government definition change/money might just mean that the 2e/h is a car (automobile) and must comply with mandated bumper heights and performance requirements...

Some companies just don't learn their lessons and have blind faith. I could not agree more, Aptera thought they could sell a commute vehicle with non-functional (roll-up/down) windows, and continues to show prototypes with that "feature". One year in the penalty box for that "blind faith" and "lesson learned". It certainly didn't help profitability, and did increase costs that still have yet to be amortized. I won't be so crass as to say "RIP Aptera Motors" but an old adage seems appropriate here; The price of perfection is bankruptcy

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

The window issue was a lesson learned for Aptera mostly due to lack of management and marketing experience but they learned that lesson. Myers already had marketing and sales experience, poor as it was but they did go through the process and yet they seem to be presenting a vehicle that is not much of a departure from the original, they did not learn much. Any company moving forward with a vehicle over $27K and using a and ADC motor is not a serious player in the EV marketplace. I will bet that they are doing this as they used most of the old NMG parts and just put a new shell and frame on and that is why it is specified as such. A range of 50 miles and a DC pump motor and no regen on a low-tech platform is not worth more than $12k, Its a glorified 3-wheel golf cart. If this vehicle sells as described above at a price above $27k with no rebates and in units over 300 in the first year of sales to individuals I will personally go to Santa Clara and buy you dinner in ANY establishment of your choice up to $300. In my opinion these guys are not seeing reality and have a pipe dream that this is a viable business model with this low-tech implementation.

Even their marketing is still poor, they even state that the base price is less than the NMG yet you can still buy an NMG for more- that's brilliant. If they could sell this in volume at $12 they would have a chance. Of course some will plop down close to $30K but if it's between this and an Aptera it's a no-brainer and at that price it's a very risky and most likely unreliable proposition. If they were smart they would blow out the NMG's right now. If gas is $5 a gallon and Aptera has folded and they are the only game in town they will sell some of these, until that perfect storm occurs this will replace ZAP as my source of wishful EV entertainment. I hope you are not a vegan:)

Just wait until people become educated on regen and the difference between a sealed AC motor VS a DC motor with exposed brushes.
Laughing rant over.

[BrianK]

I opened this thread fully expecting to see some sort of new Meyer's Manx.

http://churchofbk.com/buggy/images/IMG_0219.JPG

:: sigh :: ;)

[NmGfan]

The window issue was a lesson learned for Aptera mostly due to lack of management and marketing experience but they learned that lesson. Right, lack of management and marketing experience. More like overly obsessed with aerodynamic performance to the point of being blind to basic vehicle functional needs. Jeez man, the original Corbin Sparrow you bought had electric roll-up/down windows since the first unit built back in '99. How many vehicles in the last 50 years have been designed/styled with windows that don't open at all? They did learn though, it is now a year later and they have yet to show *one* prototype of the product with functioning windows that they intend to launch into production within the next few months. We are all still waiting to see what that vehicle will look like.

I will bet that they are doing this as they used most of the old NMG parts and just put a new shell and frame on and that is why it is specified as such. You'd lose that bet for sure as you've stated it. The correct part of your assertion is that they are close to exhausting the supply of body shells that they bought from failed Corbin Motors. Once those body shells are gone, so is the original Sparrow/NmG. The NmG2 is an all new vehicle from a chassis point of view, a wider track width and longer wheel base. They are sticking with the drive train and power control systems that they developed for their Li battery pack.

Of course some will plop down close to $30K but if it's between this and an Aptera it's a no-brainer and at that price it's a very risky and most likely unreliable proposition. Yes, some will plop down the $$$ because it meets their needs and/or they like the style. A 2e/h is not necessarily the panacea for everyone that you would like to believe it is, for instance it is larger and wider than every other two seat automobile currently in production, being only 3' shorter and a foot wider than my '64 Ranchero which was classified as *compact car class* in its day, today it is considered full size class. Aptera learned their lesson on that one too, as they try to narrow the track width to something resembling that of a compact car without making the passenger compartment too small for comfort (major design constraint there). As for your assertion that its a "very risky and most likely unreliable proposition", maybe you could expand on what the risks are and why you think its going to be an unreliable proposition with a few researched facts for support.

;)

[evmavin]

I was being polite regarding the marketing comment on the windows. So myers is not using the rear suspension are from the NMG? Even if this is a group up build it is far too expensive if it does not have regen and a larger pack, I still find it hard to believe Aptera can meet $30K unless they sell many units and I think the 2e is a stepping stone. How many serious EV manufacturers are using the ADC 8" DC motor? None. This was not designed to be a traction motor for production. My point is that using a hobbyist motor in a period when EV's will be announced monthly and some big makers selling them makes it more of a an expensive toy to most. They went with what was simple and easy but it is very dated. The only decent DC controller for that motor is the Zilla and we know where that stands.This should be a FWD AC vehicle with at least a 80 mile range at this price point. Don't even compare it to Aptera for argument sake, look at it's value at it's price point and features on its own. Sure a few will buy it because they like it or think it's cool, but is it a viable business model, I say no way at that price! When the specs are out I'll be specific in detail. They did a decent job copying the original design until they dropped the snow mobile light in and ruined it. Can't wait to see that facts and do my research but I think common sense is enough in this case. It's over priced- wait and see.

[KarenRei]

Steve has stated from the earliest days that the windows would roll down before they delivered. I think he first posted that here on the forum in Spring '08.

[Matthijs]

The only decent DC controller for that motor is the Zilla and we know where that stands.
Yeah, they will be back in full production by November! http://www.evcomponents.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=37 Which one do you need?

Also look here: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zilla-back-controller-resume-production-60-35670.html

[evmavin]

I was not referring to them being built. This is the best high-performance controller money can buy but it is not the most appropriate choice for a production EV. I've owned two of them, there is nothing better for a home built EV IF you are looking for high power and no regen.

[Matthijs]

I was not referring to them being built. This is the best high-performance controller money can buy but it is not the most appropriate choice for a production EV. I've owned two of them, there is nothing better for a home built EV IF you are looking for high power and no regen.

I see what you mean. An production EV should at least have an AC drive system designed for automotive use.

[evmavin]

Exactly, at least at $15k or above. And if Aptera were using and 8" DC motor with no regen and even a Zilla with FWD, I would cancel my order even if it were $20k- done deal. If they used a water cooled DC motor with regen that would be different. The speculated motor on the new Myers EV is a 8" golf cart motor, pure and simple. It is not sealed, it has brushes that wear and are exposed and it looses much efficiency by not having regen. In mass production these should sell for about $10K and Myers would make money and I would buy one for sure. If they use the components suggested this is only a three wheeled high-power golf cart.

[NmGfan]

Steve has stated from the earliest days that the windows would roll down before they delivered. I think he first posted that here on the forum in Spring '08.

You're probably right and he probably meant it, but that was a year and a half ago when they were planning on starting deliveries in Fall '08. The question is, what will the redesigned vehicle look like, will it still have the same appeal? Hopefully everyone will get a look at a production ready prototype image soon...

:happy0025:

[KarenRei]

I was just listening to the Mountain Goats, and I just thought of the NmG ;)

----------
They're gonna find intelligent life up there on the moon
And the Canterbury Tales will shoot up to the top of the best seller list
And stay there for 27 weeks

And the Chicago Cubs will beat every team in the league
And the Tampa Bay Bucs will make it the way to January
And Myers will build a good car
They will build one, like we dream of
Myers will build a good car
They will build one, like we dream of

The stars are gonna spell out the answers to tommorow's crosswords
And the Phillips Corporation will admit that they've made an awful mistake
And Bill Gates
Will single handedly spearhead the Heaven Seventeen revival

And the Chicago Cubs will beat every team in the league
And the Tampa Bay Bucs will make it the way to January
And Myers will build a good car
They will build one, like we dream of
Myers will build a good car
They will build one, like we dream of

---------

(Half in jest, of course ;) It'd be more appropriate for Zap!)

[Dolphyn]

I'm confused, has Myers released ANY details about the power source, motor, controller, batteries, etc? It seems like most of you are assuming the specs will be very poor, but AFAIK all they have really said is "Consumer feedback on the single-passenger vehicle led the design process for Myers Motors' new two-passenger model," which would seem to suggest that most of your concerns have already been taken into account. I will be very surprised if they use a DC motor without regen.

[NmGfan]

I think they've come up with a very nice design/style exterior with what looks like a dramatic improvement to interior space, appearance, and comfort. Specifications and interior images will be public on Oct. 7th. The current images show a belt and pulley on the rear wheel, so for sure it will be RWD. That alone strongly suggests no regenerative braking...

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

I was just listening to the Mountain Goats, and I just thought of the NmG ;)

...

(Half in jest, of course ;) It'd be more appropriate for Zap!)

And Half not in jest, of course. ;) Thanks for the reference to Zap! though. At least they truly have nothing but cheap tricycle NEV's and endless amounts of BS hype for highway capable vehicles that never materialize.
Up to this point in time Myers Motors has actually delivered functional freeway speed EV's (golf cars on steroids). I expect they will get this one to market as promised too.

:happy0025:

[drivin98]

Those NMGs have some snappy performance. DC without regen may not be as sweet as AC etc but it is cheaper. There are those that would argue that freewheel is just as good as regen, though I'm not one of them. Two-seater's not bad besides that unfortunate third eye.
I think they kept the eye for brand identity or something but it really isn't a "look" Americans appreciate. Remember the Tucker?

[evmavin]

Those NMGs have some snappy performance. DC without regen may not be as sweet as AC etc but it is cheaper. There are those that would argue that freewheel is just as good as regen, though I'm not one of them. Two-seater's not bad besides that unfortunate third eye.
I think they kept the eye for brand identity or something but it really isn't a "look" Americans appreciate. Remember the Tucker?


The belt drive system and the "open brush" DC motor is not a production solution, there are cost effective AC systems now for a vehicle like that and Zilla controllers (if used) are expensive, now if they are using something other than a Zilla the price is even more absurd. If Toyota made Apteras they would in numbers they would most likely sell for under $20K, if they made the Myers product it would be OEM quality and be about $12k. The cost of these vehicles comes down to assembly, low production for parts, etc. Too bad because a high powered DC three-wheeler for $12K would sell like crazy just for the fun factor. If Myers ever makes it to production in a year I think they will need a collapse of Aptera (hope not) and no other EV alternatives and $5 gas to sell past the first 100 orders.

[NmGfan]

Dude, you are relentless. Anyway a new Zilla Z1K-LV is going for $1975.

The cost of these vehicles comes down to assembly Absolutely right, the Sparrow/NmG has 300 man hours of labor to assemble one, totally absurd. This new vehicle should have a much lower labor content as it was designed to manufacture on an assembly line.

If Toyota made Apteras they would in numbers they would most likely sell for under $20K, if they made the Myers product it would be OEM quality and be about $12k. Only if they made them in quantities like 10K+ units per year for several years, otherwise, low volume for short runs equals high cost, even for Toyota.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Dude, you are relentless. Anyway a new Zilla Z1K-LV is going for $1975.

Absolutely right, the Sparrow/NmG has 300 man hours of labor to assemble one, totally absurd.

:happy0025:

Yes and you need a HV for most advanced chem packs and although the Zilla is great if you knew the entire history of the company you would know why it is not a good choice for a "production vehicle", assuming that is what they are using.

[NmGfan]

Interior shots available now:

http://www.myersmotors.com/im2/nmg2_gallery/interior_center.jpg

[evmavin]

Interior shots available now:

http://www.myersmotors.com/im2/nmg2_gallery/interior_center.jpg


Renderings, not actual pictures. Nothing real yet just concept images.

[NmGfan]

Renderings, not actual pictures. Nothing real yet just concept images. Pretty much like the just released CG renderings of the latest Aptera 2e, nothing real, just concept images.

The latest info from the Myers Motors web site on price is $24,995 for the 60 mile range model and $29,995 for the 100 mile range model. And here's a goodie, 10 applicants will be selected to take delivery of a pre-production model in February/March 2010 for customer evaluation and feedback. The deal includes a paid round trip to the Myers Motors facility in Ohio, a round of golf with the CEO at the Firestone country club there (woohoo!), and some other perks related to upgrades and retrofits to match the final production release models.

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

Myers Motors is taking orders for their new 2 seat EV now. The best possible price is just under $22.5K including incentives. Production launch is planned for June 2010...

:happy0025:

[Dolphyn]

Cool, but I haven't been able to find ANY specs for this vehicle. Are the specs out there somewhere?

[NmGfan]

Here's the specifications that have been published on their web site so far:

...this vehicle will use Myers Motors’ proven electric drive and advanced lithium battery systems so it will travel at highway speeds, have a 60 mile range,... It looks to be the same drive train as a NmG, so DC motor, zilla controller, RWD toothed belt.

From their order page:
General Specs:
Seating: Two*
Range: 60 miles
Batteries: Lithium Ion
Battery Life Expectancy: 100,000+ miles before battery capacity drops to 80% of original capacity, at which time the batteries can still be used in the vehicle or in another application.
Other details: Will be made available later

*Vehicle ergonomics are designed to accommodate individuals sized up to 95th percentile of males.

Available Upgrades
80-Mile Range Battery Pack: Add $2500
100-Mile Range Battery Pack: Add $5000

...and air conditioning.

Not a lot of details yet, but it is an order page, and the reservations are $250 fully refundable, held in escrow... (does this sound familiar?) ...for a June 2010 production launch.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

That pack pricing seems a bit odd.

[Apt3448]

"Vehicle ergonomics are designed to accommodate individuals sized up to 95th percentile of males."

If that refers to height (rather than sitting height, weight or the like) that would be about 6'.

[Dolphyn]

I'm well under 6', so I went ahead and put down a deposit.

I'm not sure if I will follow through on the purchase, but my order number is: 7

:)

[Apt3448]

Lucky seven for you it seems! Good luck and I'm sure you'll keep us posted as too your progress.

[KarenRei]

Wow, those orders sure aren't pouring in. ;)

[evmavin]

Wow, those orders sure aren't pouring in. ;)



Be nice, they will be up to 15 by 2010. I would definitely want to see the escrow statement on my deposit. If this vehicle were under $10K I would buy one for fun tomorrow, based on the speculated materials $20K plus is too much for a DC based, low tech designed system and that is why the NMG did not sell well even gas was at an all time high. Myers can't mass produce the NMG in the numbers to make it desirable for the price and even thought they are banking on two seats and a make over to make it sell now I think it will only sell a few more then the NMG. Toyota is expected to sell a Yaris hybrid in 2011 at about $15K, think about the parts in there......

[Dolphyn]

Well, the deposit is only $250, they give the name of the bank on the order form, and they have a track record of actually producing electric vehicles, which some might argue puts them ahead of Aptera.

I think I personally will like the NMG2 better than the Aptera 2E, even though it's lower-tech, but it's hard to know without actually driving the vehicles.

[evmavin]

Well, the deposit is only $250, they give the name of the bank on the order form, and they have a track record of actually producing electric vehicles, which some might argue puts them ahead of Aptera.

I think I personally will like the NMG2 better than the Aptera 2E, even though it's lower-tech, but it's hard to know without actually driving the vehicles.


What specifically do you think you will like better?

[aptera1213]

Fits in your garage?
;)

[evmavin]

Wow, those orders sure aren't pouring in. ;)


DC is so BC

[KarenRei]

What specifically do you think you will like better?

That's what I'm wondering. Less room, less payload, less aero, less top speed, far less safety features, etc. I could see it as a "fallback option", but better?

[earther]

That's what I'm wondering. Less room, less payload, less aero, less top speed, far less safety features, etc. I could see it as a "fallback option", but better?

Like NmGfan, I also have a reservation on the NmG2 (though not as low as #7!). I can't speak for her/him, but as for for myself, the deciding factors are:
(a) Myers Motors already has a proven track record of bringing EVs to market
(b) most of the admittedly inferior aspects of NmG2 to the Aptera (less room/speed/range etc) don't impact me personally as they still fall within my acceptable parameters
(c) I don't know enough about EV's to dispute the contentions made here that the NmG2 is overpriced, but regardless it will undoubtedly be less expensive than the Aptera.
(d) Come summer 2010, if the Aptera is rolling out (or at least on the horizon) then I will likely pass on the NmG2 (the deposit to Myers Motors is refundable afterall). However, if we are sitting in more or less than same situation a year from now as we are at present, and the NmG2 (and Leaf et al) are on the showroom floors, I'll probably (with some sadness) get one of the others but still continue on the Aptera waitlist -- but with the intention of selling it new.

-Steve

[Dolphyn]

It's smaller, which is better for me, easier to park, easier to maneuver, and yes, fits into the garage more easily.

75 mph is plenty fast for me, so I don't care about top speed beyond that.

I don't consider the Aptera to be safer, because its protrusions make it more likely that I will get into an accident.

Aptera's outrigger-wheels are probably a deal-killer for me, much as I like other aspects of the vehicle.

To give a little more context, my depth perception is fairly poor, and I've actually knocked mirrors off my Geo Metro backing out of the garage. :(

[SEGsby]

Well, we know it will be out for sale before the Aptera... :jumping0006:

[KarenRei]

I don't consider the Aptera to be safer, because its protrusions make it more likely that I will get into an accident.

Ignorign that I disagree about the wheel pods (which have running lights and should be quite obvious, as well as being at least as securely attached as any car's wheels).... If the new NmG's safety is anything like the current NmG's, you might as well be riding a motorcycle.

There's nothing wrong with that, mind you, if you're willing to accept its risk. But we shouldn't pretend that it's the same ballpark of safety standards.

[Dolphyn]

Actually, we shouldn't pretend to know what safety standards are in place or not for the NMG2, since there is NO relevant information available as far as I know.

Anyway, as for the width of the Aptera, I wouldn't feel safe driving a Hummer either. It's just too wide for me to drive. (But, I'm still waiting to hear the actual width of the production Aptera.)

[NmGfan]

Wow, those orders sure aren't pouring in. ;)

What did you expect, a reservation rate higher than Aptera's? Let's see, Myers started taking orders on 10/26/09 and Dolphyn is order number 7 on 11/6/09, so nine days in they have seven orders or just shy of 1 order per day. Earther has also placed an order and stated that the reservation number is not as low as Dolphyn's, so I'd bet the order rate is increasing, more than one per day 11 business days into the reservation list build. Does anyone remember how long it took for Aptera reservation number 7 to be placed over two years ago?

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

What did you expect, a reservation rate higher than Aptera's? Let's see, Myers started taking orders on 10/26/09 and Dolphyn is order number 7 on 11/6/09, so nine days in they have seven orders or just shy of 1 order per day. Earther has also placed an order and stated that the reservation number is not as low as Dolphyn's, so I'd bet the order rate is increasing, more than one per day 11 business days into the reservation list build. Does anyone remember how long it took for Aptera reservation number 7 to be placed over two years ago?

:happy0025:


For a company that has "been selling EVs for a long time" they should have at least 100 orders in the first week and 30-50 in the first few days. Seven orders in 10 days is not good for a company that has been selling product for some time.

[NmGfan]

Well let's see how stellar Aptera's order rate has been over the last 900+ days for 2e's from the Forum's own reservation graph. From Dec. '07 to Aug '08 orders for 2e's skyrocketed up about 2000 units, and then crept up about another 250 units from Aug. '08 to Nov. '09. So that means that Aptera's big order rate for 2e's was once a little over 8 units per day for 9 months and then fell to about a half unit per day over the following 14 months, or an average of 2.5 2e's per day over the last 900+ days. These are rough numbers, but not so outstanding as one likes to believe, and since the first production launch slip last fall, the order rate has been mediocre, less than half what Myers is currently receiving.

:happy0025:

[KarenRei]

Well let's see how stellar Aptera's order rate has been over the last 900+ days for 2e's from the Forum's own reservation graph. From Dec. '07 to Aug '08 orders for 2e's skyrocketed up about 2000 units, and then crept up about another 250 units from Aug. '08 to Nov. '09.

Just to give your numbers the benefit of the doubt, let's say you mean Dec. '07 to Aug '08 inclusive. That's 244 days. 2000 / 244 = ~8.2 per day. Of course, that was the long-running climb of Aptera pre-orders. If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to compare initial pre-orders -- say, the first month after full vehicle unveiling. And why limit it to only 2es, when the 2e and 2h are essentially the same vehicle but with a different pack size and one having a generator? Are you going to break down the NmG preorders by pack size? If you look at Aptera's first full month since the unveiling of "Zen" in Popular Mechanics in December '07, they took in about 17 orders a day. How does that compare to NmG's first month so far?

And I agree with evmaven. Aptera had to contend with the fact that they were new. NmG is established. It's not a good sign that they can't move vehicles any faster than this right after the unveiling.

Hopefully, for their sake, they'll unveil more details about safety specs and testing plans that are encouraging. If they can do that, I imagine their order rate would pick up. But for now, I think people are expecting the same degree of safety you get in a NmG1, which limits the potential market.

[Dolphyn]

It's not a good sign that they can't move vehicles any faster than this right after the unveiling.It's not any sign at all, given that detailed specs have not been published and (I'm guessing) hardly anyone knows they started accepting pre-orders.

[NmGfan]

Just to give your numbers the benefit of the doubt, let's say you mean Dec. '07 to Aug '08 inclusive. That's 244 days. 2000 / 244 = ~8.2 per day. Of course, that was the long-running climb of Aptera pre-orders. Yep, that's a match.
If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to compare initial pre-orders -- say, the first month after full vehicle unveiling. That was sort of my intent, since this is the beginning of the third week of reservations; now if we can just get through that first month of orders for Myers new 2 seat BEV.
And why limit it to only 2es, when the 2e and 2h are essentially the same vehicle but with a different pack size and one having a generator? A couple of reasons. One, I'm comparing similar BEvehicles, not mixing hybrids with BEV's. That is something that you regularly point out to numerous posters on the forum, so I'm a little surprised you'd throw that out. Folks that are looking at range extended EV's have different criteria for their vehicle needs, so no need to include them (wouldn't your trip across country be easier in a 2h?). Anyway, Myers is not offering a comparable platform. Two, according to Aptera Motors, the 2h availability is 6 to 12 months after the 2e.
Are you going to break down the NmG preorders by pack size? Probably not. I don't have access to that type of information at this time.
And I agree with evmaven. Aptera had to contend with the fact that they were new. NmG is established. It's not a good sign that they can't move vehicles any faster than this right after the unveiling. Aptera has done well with their reservations and clearly built a good amount of pent-up demand in anticipation of a Q4 2008 production launch. I too agree with evmavin, Aptera Motors is so new that they had to contend with the fact that their first design wasn't going to market like they thought and a major year (now year and a half) long delay/redesign was required to include basic features included in every car since Hector was a pup, killing the order rate. The NmG by Myers is established in as much as they continued to assemble a low volume vehicle that was not designed for assembly line production; building and selling over 50 units (out of 70 possible) to customers that placed orders. Myers seems to be keeping their expectations low, shooting for a goal of 1000 reservations by June 2010 for the lowest possible production launch price ($22.5K). As for "moving" vehicles (like, off-the-lot), we are all waiting for someone to begin production and sales of a two-seat three-wheel BEV for less than $30K.

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

Myers Motors congratulates Stan Thornton. Stan was the first person to submit the name "Duo" and he used it as an acronym for "Doesn't Use Oil." We had many great entries, but we kept coming back to Stan's entry because it describes our new vehicle so well: the second Myers Motors vehicle, it seats two, and it Doesn't Use Oil. Myers Motors just loves that kind of efficiency. Stan told us he can't wait to buy his own Duo.

We also want to thank everyone who applied to participate in our Preproduction Test Drive. We will be choosing in the next few weeks and will notify everyone who applied then.

Regular web site updates on progress toward stated milestones. Nice.

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

The folks who applied to participate in the Preproduction Test Drive or "Beta" test pilots have been selected and notified right before Christmas as a gift from Myers Motors. More details on selecting the mileage range desired (60, 80, 100) and other options (color and A/C?) will be available in the next month or so. There might be ten DUO's out on the road collecting real world data and user feedback by Spring 2010.

:happy0025:

[solardude]

Congratulations! You have been chosen to be one of the pioneers in bringing affordable, all-electric vehicles to market! We appreciate your trust in us … and your help … in bringing forth the Duo.


We will send you an update on how things are going before the end of February, which will include the plan for gathering feedback.

We do not want to collect any deposits until we are closer to building your vehicle; when we get about 90 days out, then we will ask for your deposit and the range that you want.

All of us at Myers Motors are excited about your partnership with us in this next step …

May God bless you this and every year.

Dana S. Myers
President

I am honored to be chosen as one of the few "pioneers", but I am not putting down a dime unless they release more specific specs. I would absolutely go with Aptera over the Duo. the 2e has AC motor, regen, more efficient, airbags, crumple zone, superior composite, front wheel drive (no belt drive), and actual prototypes driving around, not mere computer concepts (I also hope they don't mind me being an atheist).

[aptera1213]

congrats solardude...

i am in the very same position as you.

i have also been meaning to put up a thread about this...about how i feel, what i might or might not do.

(and to myers motors...i can blog and make posts with capital letters and correct punctuation...i just have been eecummings typing since high school and it is my preferred interwebs typing style)

So I too have been selected to be one of the first ten people to own a Duo. And I am a bit torn as what to do. I have been a deposit holder for an Aptera for 2 years. It is the car I want so very much.

I know little about MyersMotors. But I do know that they have actually sold Electric Vehicles to actual customers. That is a plus.

The Aptera is, in my eyes, better looking, with more room for both passenger and "stuff". That said, the car purchase I hope to make this summer is a pure commuter car for me, so the Duo would surely meet my needs.

And I do want to push EVs forward. And we do that by owning and driving EVs. To actually get EVs out on the roads. Miles driven and stories told.

So come summer 2010, if Aptera is where I fear they will be (waiting for DOE money, no cars in customer hands yet), I will likely be driving and blogging about my Duo.

Would I prefer driving and blogging about my Aptera? Sure. Will I likely enjoy and grow to love my Duo. Sure again.

I'm have a fairly low number on the Aptera EV list. Around the 370ish range. And I imagine a number of those ahead of me might drop out for one reason or another. So I expect I might get around the 250th or so Aptera built. If I see progress and some Apteras going to the early adopters this summer, I will likely give up my Duo spot and wait for an Aptera.

That said, being number 10 for a Duo and being told I can basically 100% have one this summer and be an early tester is very compelling.

Heck, I've been bugging Aptera since almost day one that I would love to be an early tester for their car. Put all the tracking devices, computer gizmos etc etc in that car and let me drive it around. I promise to do hourly blogs if needed :) .

So, while my heart was set on the Aptera, the Duo does hold appeal to me.

One: It appears like it will actually be built. That is a big plus :)

Two: I would be getting it as one of the first 10 off the line. Sure it will likely be a bit rough, have a few bugs. But I can deal with that. Heck, I haven't owned a car in 5 years. And being a bike and scooter driver (one scooter is vintage 2 stroke so you know it has down time), well I'm use to problems arising from time to time.

Three: IT WILL FIT IN MY GARAGE. Ha. No more worries about wheel well widths.



The downside. I fell in love with the Aptera. Luckily I have a few months to wait and see if I have to give up that love or not.

Since this is a strictly commuter car for me the other downsides are minor.
I would have loved a trunk like the Aptera, but don't really NEED it.
The Aptera range would have been nice, but again I don't really need it. 99 percent of my trips are less than 20 miles. The other 1 percent are more than 300 miles, so neither car would work for that.


So I am still a bit in limbo. But limbo with a backup. And it does appear that I will be able to get an EV for under 30 grand. Which was a hope of mine.

[NmGfan]

I have been PMed by a few other forum members that are either on the waiting list or impressively, one of the 10 Beta testers. I think at least three of 10 Beta Testers are forum members, which means 1/3 of the pool are motivated Aptera fans! This should be very interesting as one component of the 'Beta' drive is regular blogging of driving experiences. Some of that info is sure to make it onto the forum for further analysis by our "Staff" of EV experts. This should be interesting and informative, if only to compare and contrast the two EV company's methods of getting their respective vehicles into the hands of consumers.

:happy0025:

[Dolphyn]

I'm looking forward to read those reports from the Beta testers. I hope Myers doesn't require a non-disclosure agreement like the Triac (http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com/) folks (although, to be fair, it looks like they're letting him post some of his observations).

I actually think a Duo will suit me better than an Aptera, assuming that the Duo is a good quality vehicle, but I didn't sign up as a Beta tester. (And I might decide that my lithium-powered City-EL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityEl) is all the electric car I need for now!)

[oakn]

I'm just now reading this thread. Rats! Dolphin you beat me by a month. I put my deposit down the end of December.

[Pegasus]

I've been pining for another electric car since my crappy Chinese-built one came to the end of its battery life again and would love to get one this Spring!! So if any of y'all first 10 people want to bail, PM me!!

Pegasus

[solardude]

Is your "crappy" vehicle a ZAP? I have one, and i would suspect your battery troubles are due to the lack of an equalization system. I installed PowerCheq equalizers on my batteries and they have lasted for years. my odometer is on 1926 miles (I suspect the odometer overstates however), with the original/stock batteries. I'm one of the first ten, sittin' on the fence, so I'll let you know.

[shotgunslade]

Number 13. Don't think I'll be selected even if others withdraw, becasue I'm in NJ across the continent.

[NmGfan]

Myers Motors is doing their Beta testing nation-wide, so if someone bails-out, NJ is closer to Ohio than CA so you've got a pretty good second chance (if you applied) as a Beta tester.

:happy0025:

[oakn]

Wow. If anyone else has a spare DUO to test, please put me in the line up. My qualification has been to pioneer promising technologies for my network - includes; being the primary amateur researcher who rediscovered the cross strung chromatic harp and solved a 100 year old mystery to its approach that recognized harp experts had not solved.. being a chief advocate and early adopter of hybrid technology leading to seven people in my 1st tier network purchasing Prius's and a couple converting their cars to electric.. pushing for both urban and rural sustainable development... on and on... oh yes, regional presentations, radio, television and newspaper articles about hybrid and electric cars... [check me out if you don't believe it...]

[shotgunslade]

Decision to make. Beta tester is available on a buy it now basis. Decisions, decisions.

[base428]

For those of us in the "group of 10", please note that today is the first of March. MM stated the following in their Christmas email:

We will send you an update on how things are going before the end of February, which will include the plan for gathering feedback.

Anyone receive futher info yet?

[NmGfan]

I sent in a request for general info in mid-February. It is being reviewed before anything is released. Maybe this week we'll get a reply.

:happy0025:

[oakn]

Its going to happen. (on time??) I hope we get to read the blogs/responses as was done with the MINI. ...I also hope some of the DUO drivers get to experience real winter weather before the snow fades, so a realistic picture of winter performance is known without having to wait a year.

[NmGfan]

Its going to happen. (on time??) I hope we get to read the blogs/responses as was done with the MINI. ...I also hope some of the DUO drivers get to experience real winter weather before the snow fades, so a realistic picture of winter performance is known without having to wait a year.

I spoke with Dana Myers, CEO of Myers Motors, this morning (3/5/10) regarding progress and specifications on the Duo and when a news update might be published. He indicated there have been a few delays (as might be expected in new product development) but forward progress is being made daily and they will release some more general specifications about the Duo early next week.

He told me of his most recent winter driving experience, about two weeks ago. The EV (an NmG with the 60 mile range Li pack) had been fully charged in the garage, but the garage door was left open overnight so it was 31 degrees F inside as well as outside. He hopped on the nearby freeway with a heavy right foot and proceeded up to 70mph for the next 50 miles to a meeting of other CEO's at a local yacht club. When he arrived, the first thing he noticed was that the trip had consumed 100Ah of power or about 5 miles per kW, at below freezing temperatures. He was at 80% DoD, so he went hunting for a power outlet to recharge for the return trip which was found at the public restroom in the parking lot. He offered to pay a dollar for the time he was plugged-in, but they refused it, a free opportunity charge!

More news to come in less than a week...

:happy0025:

[base428]

Sounds good, I'm looking forward to more info on the Duo. One question though - If Dana had a 60 mile pack and he traveled 50 miles, wouldn't he have to recharge for the return trip regardless of garage temperature?

[oakn]

Sounds promising. Thanks for asking about winter driving. In Michigan though that means not simply cool temperatures, but snow/ice to often drive though in the winter. I'm thinking its doable. I've talked to another person in my local network who is also waiting to hear how things are coming and a friend whom I took on a tour at Myers Motors a couple years back [he wanted a two seater]. I am Really looking forward to the DUO happening!

Thanks for the update.

Oakn

[NmGfan]

Sounds good, I'm looking forward to more info on the Duo. One question though - If Dana had a 60 mile pack and he traveled 50 miles, wouldn't he have to recharge for the return trip regardless of garage temperature?

Yes, a recharge was required, a fresh recharge. The concern was that the original departure charge was completed many hours before (stale), so the EV sat at below freezing with no pack warming charge activity, temperature control or insulation, potentially limiting travel range (anxiety time). From what I was told, the pack did not like the heavy right foot accelerating onto the freeway (BMS warning light for low power), but once rolling along, the warning went away.

In Michigan though that means not simply cool temperatures, but snow/ice to often drive though in the winter. I'm thinking its doable.

As for driving in the snow, that has been happening every winter for several years now in the Talmadge, Ohio area and a light right foot is mandatory.

:happy0025:

[oakn]

...waiting....waiting...

[solardude]

Update on building America’s most Affordable,

All-Electric, Highway Speed, vehicle … in America

In December, I said that we would give you an update by the end of February … and now here it is the second half of March and I haven’t kept up my end of the bargain. I did not keep to schedule and I apologize for that.

You are part of a small group of people who wants to help bring American made, affordable, all-electric vehicles to America and you have offered to help with your time and money. And, I would like to make you even more of a partner by setting up an area on the web where we can give you updates and get your as we work together to bring affordable, electric vehicles –and US jobs—to this great country of ours and help accelerate the demise of personal and national oil dependence.

Our new timetable and progress:

While on a recent trip with my family to build a house for a family of four living in a shelter with dirt floors, I was able to connect with a man that I hold in very high esteem who also was on the trip. After discussing all the obstacles we were facing, he challenged me to set a timetable for getting our first vehicle done and on the road and just commit to that date. He’s very persuasive and, of course, I ended up setting a date: July 6th. So, that is when we will have our first pre-production vehicle on the road. And, after that, we should be in a position to build one vehicle every two to three days.

Successes we’ve had to meet our July 6, first pre-production vehicle date:

Electric Drive-Train … The NmG electric drive train is reliable and gives us a 60 mile range at less than 80% depth of discharge on the batteries at highway speeds with batteries that had been cooled to 32 degrees F the night before (not hard to do on an Ohio winter evening). This drive train utilizes lithium batteries that should last over 100,000 to 150,000 miles at 70% depth of discharge. In addition to the batteries and our battery management system (developed with the help of a PhD electrical engineer at the University of Akron), the electric part of the drive train includes our wiring harness, controller, DC/DC converters, charger, etc. While we will always work on continuous improvements, this important part of an electric vehicle is one of our strongest points.

Mechanical Drive-Train … The Duo will use our existing rear drive-train which drives the rear wheel. On the one hand, rear wheel drive precludes us from having regenerative braking. On the other hand, our drive system is energy and cost effective. When I asked an experienced EV-engineer (whose company made an electric FWD system) about front versus rear wheel drive, his response was something to the effect that rear wheel drive is simpler, less expensive (by about $5000) and the most energy efficient drive we would find ---so why would we want to change from rear wheel drive?

One reason to change to front wheel drive is snow. I drove my NmG most of this snowy Ohio winter but there were just a handful of days when I didn’t drive my NmG due to weather concerns. The roads are usually cleared, and even though I never bought snow tires, I drove it on days when the roads were covered in matted down snow (I love when everything, including the roads are white with snow piled on the sides … beautiful). I got up and down my driveway just fine (except for the day when it took us 30+ minutes to get out of our driveway even using 4 wheel drive---I didn’t drive my NmG that day). So, while rear wheel drive isn’t usable for 100% of all travel, for me it covers about 360 days out of 365. If that kind of performance fits you, then this technology is also well developed for your needs.

Obstacle to overcome to meet our July 6, first pre-production vehicle date:

Body/Chassis:

Myers Motors has investigated and developed a manufacturing system that will enable us to make our vehicles affordable to low volumes of buyers---using extremely low amounts of capital. Unfortunately, I underestimated the amount of time and money we would need to take all our development work and turn it into driving vehicles. This underestimation is the primary cause for my being late on this update.

As has happened so many times in the past, we have confidence that our needs will be met to keep on this schedule. Bellmark Partners, our investment bankers, are excited about our getting funded. But, there is no guarantee that I can give you that we will hit our target … and because I cannot do this right now, I have not felt comfortable asking for your $10,000 deposit. When we 100% have the funds for the tools to build your vehicles, we will be asking, but not before.

So, what’s next? We have some data people have been asking for … and we would like to set up a site where we can involve you more in the details of what we are doing so that we can make sure our first run of the vehicle is as good as it can be. To do this, we are setting up a site for only pre-production vehicle buyers. For those who sign and fax back the attached confidentiality agreement (330 633 6458), we will take that as an indication of continued interest in purchasing a pre-production vehicle. We will then give you the information on how to get on to this site so that we can all partner to create US jobs while removing our dependence upon foreign oil.

Vehicle Data:

Some have asked for vehicle dimensions:

NmG Duo

Width 52” 72”

Length 114” 144”

Height 57” 58”

Charger 22.5” high by door 15” high on front (our designers thought this would be a good place to put it because it would make a retractable cord work better, but I am concerned about the placement because it involves bending over more … so, I would love your input on this).

In Conclusion:

1.
I am committed to getting our first pre-production vehicle ready by July 6th,
2.
We have everything we need to get it done except the last few dollars,
3.
We will keep doing everything we can to meet our target date,
4.
We will set up a better means of communication,
5.
I would love your feedback on anything in this update, and
6.
Will you sign the NDA and, by that, let us know that you are still interested in purchasing a pre-production Duo?

Thank you for your patience and your support.

Dana Myers

Myers Motors

[aptera1213]

Yeah, just got that letter too...

Gavin

[evmavin]

[QUOTE=solardude]Update on building America’s most Affordable,


Mechanical Drive-Train … The Duo will use our existing rear drive-train which drives the rear wheel. On the one hand, rear wheel drive precludes us from having regenerative braking. On the other hand, our drive system is energy and cost effective. When I asked an experienced EV-engineer (whose company made an electric FWD system) about front versus rear wheel drive, his response was something to the effect that rear wheel drive is simpler, less expensive (by about $5000) and the most energy efficient drive we would find ---so why would we want to change from rear wheel drive?



This is poorly written marketing speak and Dana sounds clueless about EVs or both. I have to cal this one out as it is. $5K more for FWD, only because of the cost to redesign the entire car and use a proper AC motor, not just the cost of FWD vs RWD. The Myers drive is a very primitive DC belt drive with a brushed motor that is not sealed and has a low RPM restriction and has maintenance issues as well. The FWD is more efficient in a small car like this as it offeres regen and the difference without is not substantial and the package is quite simple. So he just asked a casual question and off they went using their old drive? No, it was easy and cheap for them to do so and it is inferior, the price of the vehicle is too high based on the drive and pack size. Look at the 100 mile range price BEFORE their limited time discount.

You can buy an AC FWD motor and transaxle for less than $4K- that's for both. He should have came up with a better excuse or find a way to sell these for far below $20K or this thing is going to have a tough ride without gas at $5 a gallon and no other EV alternatives.

[solardude]

Confidentiality Disclosure Agreement
Duo Preproduction Vehicle Team
The undersigned, ____________________, has agreed to participate in the Myers Motors, LLC Duo
Preproduction Vehicle Team. Participation in the Duo Preproduction Vehicle Team may reveal
proprietary and confidential information and the undersigned agrees to treat Myers Motors’ information
as confidential and not to disclose that information other than for conducting business with Myers
Motors or with written permission from Myers Motors, for a period of 1 (one) year from the date of
signing this Agreement.
Notwithstanding the above, there will be no obligations or restrictions with respect to any information
which: (i) was known to the receiving party prior to the disclosure by the disclosing party, or (ii) is or
becomes publicly known other than by breach of confidentiality obligation to the disclosing party, or
(iii) is developed by the receiving party independently of any Information received from the disclosing
party, or (iv) is received by the receiving party other than through breach of confidentiality obligation
to the disclosing party, or (v) is transmitted by the disclosing party after receiving notification from the
receiving party that it does not desire to receive any further information.
The obligations of confidentiality and nondisclosure under this Agreement will be fulfilled by the
receiving party using the same care it uses to protect its own proprietary information of a like kind.
Except as expressly provided above in this Agreement, there are no obligations concerning any
information disclosed under this Agreement.
Accepted by Myers Motors Company/Individual________________
By______________________________ Address__________________________
Signature_________________________ Signature_________________________
Title_____________________________ Title_____________________________
Date_____________________________ Date_____________________________

[aptera1213]

Well the thing is I believe Myers is trying to do something they really believe in and something they think is important...bringing commuter EVs to the marketplace. I commend them for it.

And the Duo would probably be great for me in many ways...I have a short commute. The weather is hardly ever awful, though we do get a bit of snow from time to time.

That said, I will likely pass. I would prefer front wheel drive. I would prefer a more advanced motor and such. And, like Aptera, the big boys are coming and both Myers and Aptera should have found a way to get out a year ago.

So the chances of me owning either an Aptera or a Duo are about the same...not a high chance in either case...maybe 5%. I won't discount either just yet, but other more "reliable" options seem to be close to the horizon.

Gavin

[evmavin]

I agree they are trying to do something important,I still contend it is a poor business decision if their objective is to make money.

[Dolphyn]

Wow, the dimensions surprise me, larger than I expected.

It's taller and wider than my Geo Metro convertible, and the length is only a few inches less.

[evmavin]

Does anyone really think the Duo will be as safe as a car built by a major auto manufacturer with federal safety standards and engineering economies of scale? In fact I would venture that if the Duo is produced that it is a very unsafe vehicle. Myers does not have the technology, talent or resources to develop such a vehicle nor the experience. Taking parts from corbin and reworking them and selling a few NMG's under very limited sales does not qualify as manufacturing experience. Compare the Duo to the Triac or similar.

[NmGfan]

Does anyone really think the Duo will be as safe as a car built by a major auto manufacturer with federal safety standards and engineering economies of scale? In fact I would venture that if the Duo is produced that it is a very unsafe vehicle. Myers does not have the technology, talent or resources to develop such a vehicle nor the experience. Taking parts from corbin and reworking them and selling a few NMG's under very limited sales does not qualify as manufacturing experience. Compare the Duo to the Triac or similar.

As usual, a full court press to discredit Myers Motors with personal opinion and inuendo. No one ever asserted that a fully enclosed motorcycle like the Duo would be safer than a FMVSS mandated automobile; it's just your way of amplifying your negative personal opinion about the product. You offer no supporting facts regarding the Duo as a "very unsafe vehicle", just that you would "venture" that if it is produced, it would be. I think a more genuine statement would have been "I don't know much about this product, but it has to be unsafe because I think these guys don't know anything about making EV's". What specifically do you know about the company talent or resources? I mean actual traceable facts that can be researched, the incompetent "talent" or lack of "talent", the actual capital position the company is in with its limited "resources". As for manufacturing experience, your opinion is again without qualification, only stating that the 50 or so NmG's they assembled do not qualify as manufacturing experience. WTH? Repeated assembly of the same item in a fixed manner at fixed work stations is manufacturing, whether it be hundreds per day/minute/hour or one per week or month. It is the repeat activity, series manufacturing, even in low volume. What doesn't count as manufacturing is making one once, or making several similar but each a little different, or singularly converting something unique once.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

As usual, a full court press to discredit Myers Motors with personal opinion and inuendo. No one ever asserted that a fully enclosed motorcycle like the Duo would be safer than a FMVSS mandated automobile; it's just your way of amplifying your negative personal opinion about the product. You offer no supporting facts regarding the Duo as a "very unsafe vehicle", just that you would "venture" that if it is produced, it would be. I think a more genuine statement would have been "I don't know much about this product, but it has to be unsafe because I think these guys don't know anything about making EV's". What specifically do you know about the company talent or resources? I mean actual traceable facts that can be researched, the incompetent "talent" or lack of "talent", the actual capital position the company is in with its limited "resources". As for manufacturing experience, your opinion is again without qualification, only stating that the 50 or so NmG's they assembled do not qualify as manufacturing experience. WTH? Repeated assembly of the same item in a fixed manner at fixed work stations is manufacturing, whether it be hundreds per day/minute/hour or one per week or month. It is the repeat activity, series manufacturing, even in low volume. What doesn't count as manufacturing is making one once, or making several similar but each a little different, or singularly converting something unique once.

:happy0025:



Assembling existing cars is not manufacturing experience, they were building kits with the NMG, period. Changing a few parts is not the same as manufacturing a car from the ground up or improving an antiquated design. Now they are trying to do that at what I see as a complete waste of time from a business perspective, not a hobby perspective or pet project. So how is Myers doing with their beta testing and launch later this year? How are the reservation numbers? I stick to my comments from day one, they will never sell this thing in any significant numbers and they most likely will never turn a NET profit from this venture, more likely turn a large tax deduction. A bad business decision, nice intentions.

Let's just say it's not supposed to be safe for arguments sake, since we both know it won't be. That aside, do you still think they even have a 50/50 chance of selling more than a hundred cars, if that? Even if they do the business won;t survive so is it just a "fun" project in the end? It seems as though they have vanished again and most likely won't be having much of a comeback.

[evmavin]

Is myers still planning on building their vehicle?

[eventhusiast]

Assembling existing cars is not manufacturing experience, they were building kits with the NMG, period. Changing a few parts is not the same as manufacturing a car from the ground up or improving an antiquated design. Now they are trying to do that at what I see as a complete waste of time from a business perspective, not a hobby perspective or pet project. So how is Myers doing with their beta testing and launch later this year? How are the reservation numbers? I stick to my comments from day one, they will never sell this thing in any significant numbers and they most likely will never turn a NET profit from this venture, more likely turn a large tax deduction. A bad business decision, nice intentions.

Just read this dribble, NmGfan is right on with his comments, can i assume you know everything about manufacturing a car? do you have any experience yourself at all? have you owned your own business? i will bet you dont and if i am correct, how can you comment on someone elses business venture? myers is not building a car, he is building an enclosed electric motorcyle that is a lot more safer than a motorcycle. Yes, a low volume vehicle, he knows this and from everything i have read he is doing a good job so far. You dont like it, dont buy it.

The big three operate assembly plants, Myers runs a small one and he does have experience doing this. How can you say he made a bad business decision? You know nothing about his business dealings, capital, expenses etc. Tell me again how many vehicles you have made, designed, or assembled? Maybe after you've been in the business a while you can comment on whether or not Myers made a bad decision. If he sells 100 cars or 1000 cars, at least he is honest and trying to build the best vehicle he can with his funding.

Myers is just trying to do the right thing, he should be applauded for his efforts, not be told he is wasting his time.

[JustWilliam]

Latest news on their homepage is that all is going well, but that the Duo is delayed until the first quarter of 2011. I'm not at all surprised, and respect that the delays are do to further refinements that will allow them to meet their $25k target price.

Fortunately for consumers, the Nissan Leaf has reset expectations on the price/value equation, to the sheer HORROR of everyone planning an affordable EV of ANY configuration.

As a motorcycle or bike replacement the Duo is fantastic. It simply isn't PRICED that way.

EVmavin may occasionally be inelegant with facts, and doesn't care for the Duo. But he has ALWAYS had one undeniable argument in that the Duo is overpriced for the levels of technology and refinement it seems to offer. And that was BEFORE the Leaf was priced.

I still believe the first tadpole two seater to sell in any significant numbers will be efficiently powered by an ICE, and carry a price sufficiently lower than that of a conventional car.

[evmavin]

Latest news on their homepage is that all is going well, but that the Duo is delayed until the first quarter of 2011. I'm not at all surprised, and respect that the delays are do to further refinements that will allow them to meet their $25k target price.

Fortunately for consumers, the Nissan Leaf has reset expectations on the price/value equation, to the sheer HORROR of everyone planning an affordable EV of ANY configuration.

As a motorcycle or bike replacement the Duo is fantastic. It simply isn't PRICED that way.

EVmavin may occasionally be inelegant with facts, and doesn't care for the Duo. But he has ALWAYS had one undeniable argument in that the Duo is overpriced for the levels of technology and refinement it seems to offer. And that was BEFORE the Leaf was priced.

I still believe the first tadpole two seater to sell in any significant numbers will be efficiently powered by an ICE, and carry a price sufficiently lower than that of a conventional car.


Does anyone think it will really be $25K? Not with a 100 mile range, and remember the real stated price for that range was $35K for that range, they were doing deals for early buyers, the very few that signed up. I owned one of the first sparrows and have worked on many of the NMG vehicles and they are great fun, perhaps even less safe than a motorcycle I would bet for various reasons but that is what you give up for fun. The point everyone still ignores is that they are grossly over priced for the components, technology, range, safely and if they could do it for $15K they would sell enough to make a fortune but they can't and won't, certainly not US built. Therefore I see it as a failing business venture (businesses make profits) that could have all the greatest intention but will not make it based on the above factors not to mention the competitive offerings. Most of the people who don't agree on this don't even have a reservations for one and I bet would never buy one. Same argument from the beginning but someone will insist otherwise because "they have good intentions", that does not make a good business model.

[JustWilliam]

Does anyone think it will really be $25K? Not with a 100 mile range, and remember the real stated price for that range was $35K for that range, they were doing deals for early buyers, the very few that signed up. I owned one of the first sparrows and have worked on many of the NMG vehicles and they are great fun, perhaps even less safe than a motorcycle I would bet for various reasons but that is what you give up for fun. The point everyone still ignores is that they are grossly over priced for the components, technology, range, safely and if they could do it for $15K they would sell enough to make a fortune but they can't and won't, certainly not US built. Therefore I see it as a failing business venture (businesses make profits) that could have all the greatest intention but will not make it based on the above factors not to mention the competitive offerings. Most of the people who don't agree on this don't even have a reservations for one and I bet would never buy one. Same argument from the beginning but someone will insist otherwise because "they have good intentions", that does not make a good business model.
Bingo. I seem to recall something about the road to hell...

[evmavin]

Bingo. I seem to recall something about the road to hell...


It's paved with company founders that take the long past electrical inventions from others and all the profits. Guilt is a good motivator but not a recipe for success. :character0030:

[NmGfan]

Just thought I'd introduce a little reality into the thread I started once in a while. Myers Motors has investors that are on par with Aptera's (their business model must be sound); the company is in the process of purchasing production equipment with that investment (they intend to produce the Duo); they have a private web site for communicating directly with Beta Testers to refine the product before launch (can't tell ya where); and have just about hit their initial pricing milestone.

Our goal was to get enough pre-sale interest to justify a profitable sales price of $24,995 for our two-passenger Duo. I am happy to announce that between pre-order interest and some engineering improvements, we are within $1000 of that figure (before the 10% tax credit is applied). We believe we will be able to meet our target pricing by the time our DuO hits the street.

:happy0025:

[chijayhawker]

I always thought the Duo would be a decent fall back position from the Aptera, but now I'm in line for the Leaf. I'm leasing it (once I get it), but if Aptera pulls its collective head out of....uh get's its act together by the end of the lease, then maybe by then I will have a decent Aptera to choose from. But if they continue to muck things up...guess I'll be getting a Duo or, dare I say it, a Zap Alias.

[SlowSRT4]

...guess I'll be getting a Duo or, dare I say it, a Zap Alias.
I would consider the same if it were not for the Fiat 500 EV. You should buy one of those when your lease is up.:biggrin:

[NmGfan]

I would consider the same if it were not for the Fiat 500 EV. You should buy one of those when your lease is up.:biggrin:

Only if one isn't interested in HOV lane access. Three-wheels or less (motorcycle) is guaranteed :thumbsup:; four-wheels (automobile, BEV) may require a sticker (limited number) good for a limited time, or may not get access at all (still undecided here in CA) :sign0007:

...guess I'll be getting a Duo or, dare I say it, a Zap Alias.

:happy0025:

[evnow]

but now I'm in line for the Leaf.
....
Looking for a reason to rent a garage! *wink wink nudge nudge, know what I mean?*

What are you doing about the charger ?

[JustWilliam]

Just thought I'd introduce a little reality into the thread I started once in a while. Myers Motors has investors that are on par with Aptera's (their business model must be sound); the company is in the process of purchasing production equipment with that investment (they intend to produce the Duo); they have a private web site for communicating directly with Beta Testers to refine the product before launch (can't tell ya where); and have just about hit their initial pricing milestone.



:happy0025:
Cool that you have more info than I could find NmGfan!

Do you know if the delays are affecting the Beta schedule?

I have always admired the way Meyers has run their PR. And I can see them pulling an Apple move a la the I-phone- LOWERING the price further as they are able. I really like the Duo, but I simply can't justify spending $25k to be an early adopter.

I'm an outspoken, unabashed fan of the tadpole as a "cycle plus" transportation solution. But it isn't a solution if the "car minus" has a price two and half time higher than a Nissan Versa, and the same as the Nissan Leaf after credits. I have no interest in homely family cars and wouldn't consider purchasing them, but they represent two models from but one brand. On value for money alone, the Duo just doesn't pencil out in my reality.

[chijayhawker]

What are you doing about the charger ?

Well, I first have to finish the process of buying my new townhome to have a garage to install one in! :D

After that, I think I will wait until I'm sure the Leaf will be coming to the Chicago land area. And then I will probably go with the installer of Nissan's choice. The less effort I have to put in to purchasing the Leaf, the better. And if they have a pre-approved installer...sounds good to me. Don't know if that means they'll be responsible if the installer botches the job, but at least I think I'll have an avenue of appeal.

[NmGfan]

...

Do you know if the delays are affecting the Beta schedule?

... But it isn't a solution if the "car minus" has a price two and half time higher than a Nissan Versa, and the same as the Nissan Leaf after credits. ...On value for money alone, the Duo just doesn't pencil out in my reality.

Beta Testing has moved a corresponding amount, now taking place Fall '10 rather than Spring '10. All good though as it allows more input from the Beta folks before details are finalized and their pilot production orders are accepted.

Don't forget that the Duo does qualify for a 10% credit (not $7500, bummer), so if the initial price hits their objective, the credit will drop the price another $2500 to about $22.5K or less than a BMW K1200LT or Touring model Harley-Davidson, both produced in much larger volume.
When I checked with my insurance agent at State Farm (NmG insured there) they expect insurance for the Duo to be slightly higher than the NmG ($252/yr), or about $325/yr full coverage (not minimums). Less expensive than those other motorcycles by more than 50%, and multiples less than an automobile in the same price range (although the insurance folks tell me they don't consider the rebated price for insurance purposes, it's the fully loaded retail price for a car like the Leaf, ouch!)

You know you can get a mass produced ICE powered vehicle for less initially, and then pay for ever more expensive gasoline, expensive service intervals once or twice per year (to maintain that warranty), many times more expensive to insure, over its lifetime. If all costs are considered, it might pencil-out a little better.

Over three years and 9,000 miles:
NmG (2007)-----------------RX-7 (1981)
$45.00 electricity--- gasoline $1,080.00
$743.00 insurance--- insurance $1,224.00
$600.00 batteries--- servicing $1,025.00
$130.00 belt
$1,518.00---------Totals------$3,329.00

Less than half the price to operate over the same period of time.
:happy0025:

[SlowSRT4]

That makes perfect sense that the insurance is based on the $33k price of the Leaf. After all, that's what the insurance company has to pay if the vehicle is destroyed, not $25k.

I do feel bad for companies like Myers. They built a basic 3-wheeler in order to sell at a lower price. But then the $7500 tax credit for the 4-wheelers almost completely negates that advantage. If there were no tax credits, then there would be clear separations.

[NmGfan]

Yeah, Aptera's in that boat too. And that vehicle is supposedly superior in so many ways that there is very little chance of it being LESS expensive ($25K to $45K) than a Duo; much more likely that its base price will be as expensive as a Leaf, if not more due to low production volume.

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

... I do feel bad for companies like Myers. They built a basic 3-wheeler in order to sell at a lower price. But then the $7500 tax credit for the 4-wheelers almost completely negates that advantage. If there were no tax credits, then there would be clear separations.

Myers has been quietly working on this issue locally with:
...Congressman, Tim Ryan, has introduced a bill that would allow buyers of three-wheel vehicles to get up to a $7500 tax credit.
This is bill: H.R. 5705. A call to your Congressman or woman to become a co-sponsor of this bill would be helpful.

This effort will level the retail price playing field a little more for the non-mainstream types of vehicles like the Duo and the 2e if it passes. Contact your representatives!

The first prototype Duo is a month or so from seeing first light...

:happy0025:

[JustWilliam]

Thanks for the updates!

Peace,
William

[wcabdefense]

I was just looking at the single passenger NMG and Duo again. They are planning on offering a 100 mile range battery on the Duo, and I asked Myers Motors if that might be possible in the single-seater. I figured that might bridge the gap between today and the 2012 Aptera. :(

Brad Hirsch at Myers Motors gave me the good news.
--------------------------------------------------
Q. Is the Extended Range Battery available in the NMG Single Seat version?
That would just about suit my needs.

A. We are equipping a one-seater next month w batteries to get that range!

[NmGfan]

They are beginning to retrofit NmG's with 60/80/100 mile range Li battery packs and new BMS. If you are over 5'8" tall, especially with long legs, the NmG can get a little cramped. One bit of news I can also share is that at around 9500 miles of use and replacing 6 batteries, my NmG is experiencing a range improvement! For three years I have been getting about 147Wh/mi; recently that has improved to about 123Wh/mi.

:happy0025:

[Grendal]

They are beginning to retrofit NmG's with 60/80/100 mile range Li battery packs and new BMS. If you are over 5'8" tall, especially with long legs, the NmG can get a little cramped. One bit of news I can also share is that at around 9500 miles of use and replacing 6 batteries, my NmG is experiencing a range improvement! For three years I have been getting about 147Wh/mi; recently that has improved to about 123Wh/mi.

:happy0025:

You should have entered it in the X-prize... :happy0025:

[evmavin]

Tic Toc, Tic Toc.

[PatQ562]

For three years I have been getting about 147Wh/mi; recently that has improved to about 123Wh/mi.
Nice! How are you measuring this result?
Pat Q

[NmGfan]

Nice! How are you measuring this result?
Pat Q
I'm using the in-dash Xantrex Link-10 E-Meter to observe the number of kWh consumed for my daily commute. I also have installed a Pak-Trakr that has a data logging serial cable attachment that records a number of individual battery and pack related parameters. On a recent Expressway & Boulevard only run (9.8 mile drive with limited stopping), consumption dropped to 102W/h per mile (1000Wh to travel 9.8 miles)! I have not verified any freeway driving consumption improvements yet. Until the battery change, I was burning 500W/h to travel 3.4 miles one way to work on local surface streets (25mph), boulevards (40mph), and expressways (50mph) in stop and go conditions. After the battery change that same trip now consumes 420W/h.
I'm feeling pretty good about those numbers considering the drive train is Lead Acid batteries powering a 'zilla controlled 30hp brushed DC motor, belt driven rear wheel and no regenerative braking.


:happy0025:

[PatQ562]

I agree your numbers are quite decent. Shows what can be done with greatly reduced frontal area (a single seat) and reasonable weight. What sort of speeds were you doing on the 9.8 mile run?

However, what explains the improvement just from changing batteries? Even if your old batteries were tired and saggy, a proper wh-meter should measure the current times voltage, so weak batteries would result in lower performance, but not more wh consumed by the motor. The tip-off would come from measuring the wh consumed by recharging the batteries. This is not only the ultimate reality check, but here is where a more efficient (stiffer) battery will shine. This measurement unfortunately requires special instrumentation to do properly, although if you can turn everything else off and record your utility meter very exactly before and after the charge, it should give you a correct report of kw-hrs used. This could be compared to the e-meter reading to see if they agree (subject to about 15-20% recharging losses).

To put these numbers in perspective:
80-100wh/mi was the best performance reported for early Aptera at 55mph and for EPA cycles. As far as I know, these numbers were FROM the battery and did not include recharging losses, which can easily add 15-20%.
160-200 wh/mi was the range of Aptera performances reported from X-prize, which includes recharging losses ("wall to wheels"). Their best performance (dyno testing EPA cycle) indicated 196mpge, or 173wh/mi, which should equate to about 150wh/mi from the battery.
The EV1 got about 180wh/mi on an easy freeway run, but recharging losses (including AC cooling of the NiMH pack) bumped total energy use to 250wh/mile.
The Tesla, and Leaf, get about 250-300wh/mi including recharging losses.

Pat Q

[NmGfan]

What sort of speeds were you doing on the 9.8 mile run?

The majority of the run was 50-55mph with two stops on an Expressway (Santa Clara County novelty road, limited access, limited flow controlled signals, sort of a "slow" freeway with signal lights). The smaller segment of the run was at 35-40mph on a couple of boulevards with three stops leading to the expressway.

:happy0025:

[oakn]

Congrats on your mileage w/NmG. Any word yet about the first test DUO being completed? I am SO hoping we will have a local Michigan test driver who will take riders. btw...with the change in the political winds I'm thinking other ev car companies may delay delivering their cars in the US, when they can instead be improving their bottom line selling in other countries. Could you imagine that happening to the DUO?

[evmavin]

I guess the Duo is almost done and they are ready to fill the subsidized orders they have? Can we nail the coffin on this one now?

[NmGfan]

Despite the ill informed opinion of the Forum's most outspoken skeptic of anything not built by an established major multinational automobile manufacturer, the Myers Motors Duo is still moving forward.

As would be expected in this particular transportation niche, obtaining all the funding to build the tooling necessary to produce the Duo has been much slower than anyone inside the company anticipated. The good news is that phase has been successfully completed!
Without revealing too many specifics, a full scale model has been built with photos posted on a secure site. Worth a look if you're a development team member. Body panel component molds are being produced and chassis development work has started, soon to provide a home for the "All Weather" drive train. Within a month or so, development team members will have an opportunity to review certain aspects of the body styling and vote on their preferences.

It appears that the current goal will be a running, fully functional prototype before winter 2010-2011 is over. Pre-production vehicles should follow in early spring 2011.

More when I can reveal it.
:happy0025:

[PatQ562]

"Duo - You're our only hope now"
Pat Q

[shotgunslade]

I have a deposit on the Duo, but have been somewhat frustrated in the lack of news coming from the company. Does the reference to the "All Weather" drive train have any implications for improvements to the rear chain drive of the previous model? For me, rear wheel drive with the single wheel is the greatest drawback of the Myers Motors approach. I really like the looks of the Duo computer visualizations.

I also have a deposit on the Triac 2.0, and the decision will very much depend on how improved the new models are over the previous models. (the NMG single seater was a non-starter). Reading Randy Bopp's website on his experiences with the original Triac gives me a lot of confidence in their approach. Now, if only they can get rid of the Chinese Datsun knock-off chromework on the prow of this buggy.

Really looking for some of that 150 W-hr/mile stuff.

[evmavin]

Despite the ill informed opinion of the Forum's most outspoken skeptic of anything not built by an established major multinational automobile manufacturer, the Myers Motors Duo is still moving forward.

As would be expected in this particular transportation niche, obtaining all the funding to build the tooling necessary to produce the Duo has been much slower than anyone inside the company anticipated. The good news is that phase has been successfully completed!
Without revealing too many specifics, a full scale model has been built with photos posted on a secure site. Worth a look if you're a development team member. Body panel component molds are being produced and chassis development work has started, soon to provide a home for the "All Weather" drive train. Within a month or so, development team members will have an opportunity to review certain aspects of the body styling and vote on their preferences.

It appears that the current goal will be a running, fully functional prototype before winter 2010-2011 is over. Pre-production vehicles should follow in early spring 2011.

More when I can reveal it.
:happy0025:


You know that I'm not just for OEM vehicles and you know I have happily owned a Sparrow. I believe all these great things about the car are true and I also believe the business model is flawed and that although they may sell some cars if they ever make them it will never survive without Myers subsidizing it to the end as they are making and pricing it now. When they make this for under $12k it will be a hit, other wise it's another three-wheeled dream someone just won't let go. This will drag out like Aptera but will end in time with excuses of funding, etc.

[NmGfan]

When they make this for under $12k it will be a hit, other wise it's another three-wheeled dream someone just won't let go.

I agree that a lower price in that range would be outstanding, but the reality of the motorcycle market place is that $12K will buy a mass produced mid range displacement vanilla two wheeler produced by Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, or Kawasaki. If one wants an upper end two-wheeler from the USA, Germany or England, $15K - $26K will get a very nice Harley, BMW or Triumph. Take a look at the pricing of the latest high performance electric two-wheelers made by small start-up companies (Mission Motors, etc.), astronomical prices are the norm. None of the above are really suitable for all weather driving in many parts of the country.
My point is that $20K-$30K for a fully enclosed "car-like" electric motorcycle produced in low volumes by a small company is not an unrealistic price point. Once mass production (motorcycle mass production levels) is in full swing, pricing will be even more competitive with other premium motorcycles, but I doubt it will ever be priced like a mid range rice burner produced by Universal Japanese Motorcycles, Inc or a subcompact automobile produced by Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, or Mazda for that matter. There obviously is quite a bit more labor and many more parts (for example, a complete automotive style interior with seats for two vs. a saddle) involved in assembling a fully enclosed three-wheeled motorcycle than a standard two-wheeler.

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

... Does the reference to the "All Weather" drive train have any implications for improvements to the rear chain drive of the previous model? For me, rear wheel drive with the single wheel is the greatest drawback of the Myers Motors approach. I really like the looks of the Duo computer visualizations.
...

Really looking for some of that 150 W-hr/mile stuff.

Myers Motors has found a supplier of FWD systems that meets their price target, hence their "All Weather" drive train statement.

I typically achieve about 150Wh/mi in my daily commute in my NmG. We'll have to wait for a Duo to be built with the FWD system to see how efficiency is affected.

:happy0025:

[aptera1213]

mmm, why compare to motorcycles? compare to similar cars instead.

so if the duo is similar to say a kia, it needs to compete with that instead.

with a price increase for batteries yes, but not twice the cost. so if a similar gas car is 10k, the duo needs to be under 20k...15k would be even better.

as a motorcycle, scooter rider only for the last 6 years, i and other motorcycle riders never compare cages to 2 wheels. and they don't compete at all. i have never seen somebody shopping for either a kia or a yamaha and compare the two. instead you are either a cage only, a motorcycle only, or more common, a cage and motorcycle owner. But they are not shopped for against each other....

and no motorcycle person is going to buy the Duo as a motorcycle substitute. they may get one as an addition, or even to replace a motorcycle if they are getting too old or have had a scary spill...but never on a nice day and wanting to take a motorcycle ride will a person go, "mmmm, ride my sports bike or ride my duo through the twisties?"

can the duo sell some? sure. just like aptera could. but only a 1000 or 2000 a year at most...especially with the Leaf and Ford Focus...and now Honda with the Fit (so smart of honda to finally come around). And Th!nk and Mits and more. And if you want small...the Fiat 500 Ev and really small, the Toyota IQ.

Timing is everything, and Aptera and Myers likely just ran out of time now that the big boys are paying attention.

Both Aptera and Myers needs to offer something beyond the big boys...either luxury like Tesla or price. Aptera offered aerodynamics, but really that only counts for a few geeks...now if that aerodynamics offered great costs savings that would help...but most will see an aptera at 30k and the LEAF and Focus and Fiat and others at that or lower and will go for the name brand. A Duo at 25k will sell to collectors and a few well off geeks...everybody else will get an IQ or 500 or Fit.

but selling to a few people is ok if the company can survive on that amount.

Gavin

[byplug]

mmm, why compare to motorcycles? compare to similar cars instead.

so if the duo is similar to say a kia, it needs to compete with that instead.

with a price increase for batteries yes, but not twice the cost. so if a similar gas car is 10k, the duo needs to be under 20k...15k would be even better.

as a motorcycle, scooter rider only for the last 6 years, i and other motorcycle riders never compare cages to 2 wheels. and they don't compete at all. i have never seen somebody shopping for either a kia or a yamaha and compare the two. instead you are either a cage only, a motorcycle only, or more common, a cage and motorcycle owner. But they are not shopped for against each other....

and no motorcycle person is going to buy the Duo as a motorcycle substitute. they may get one as an addition, or even to replace a motorcycle if they are getting too old or have had a scary spill...but never on a nice day and wanting to take a motorcycle ride will a person go, "mmmm, ride my sports bike or ride my duo through the twisties?"

can the duo sell some? sure. just like aptera could. but only a 1000 or 2000 a year at most...especially with the Leaf and Ford Focus...and now Honda with the Fit (so smart of honda to finally come around). And Th!nk and Mits and more. And if you want small...the Fiat 500 Ev and really small, the Toyota IQ.

Timing is everything, and Aptera and Myers likely just ran out of time now that the big boys are paying attention.

Both Aptera and Myers needs to offer something beyond the big boys...either luxury like Tesla or price. Aptera offered aerodynamics, but really that only counts for a few geeks...now if that aerodynamics offered great costs savings that would help...but most will see an aptera at 30k and the LEAF and Focus and Fiat and others at that or lower and will go for the name brand. A Duo at 25k will sell to collectors and a few well off geeks...everybody else will get an IQ or 500 or Fit.

but selling to a few people is ok if the company can survive on that amount.

Gavin

............+1

[NmGfan]

mmm, why compare to motorcycles? compare to similar cars instead.
...
Gavin
Just so ya know, I've been riding a '78 R100RS Motorsport Edition for thirty years now. Prior to that it was a '77 XS750 IID Yamaha for three years and my first was a spanking new '73 CB350G Honda, so about 37 years on two wheelers. I also have a '02 Honda (919) for wind in the face fun.

I used motorcycles for comparison because I keep seeing suggestions that the Duo should be priced under $12K. From a manufacturing cost perspective, the Duo and for that matter the 2e, have more in common with motorcycles on a unit volume basis than automobiles. My point was that motorcycles are a niche market and manufacturing volumes are small relative to all the automobiles mentioned. Does it seem reasonable that a two-wheel BMW R1200RT costs over $23K or a maxed out HD runs up around $26K? Those motorcycles are mass produced in a factory that cost tens of million of dollars to set-up and yet they are over twice the price of a fully enclosed 4-wheel Yaris or Suzuki Swift. The reason motorcycles are relatively more expensive than automobiles is because there are only tens of thousands of units per year to offset the fixed costs required to bring them to market. The ICE subcompacts you mentioned are produced in multiple expensive factories around the globe in annual unit volumes that are measure in hundreds of thousands, along with many other models produced in similar volumes. It is much easier to amortize the fixed costs across unit volumes that are generally 10X that of motorcycles.

Myers has hit their initial pricing goal of around $25K, and that will drop by about $1000 for every 200 additional reservations.

:happy0025:

[shotgunslade]

None of these cars is going to save the world. I'm happy to be among a few well-off collectors or geeks who are interested in engineering creativity and want to have a unique and pure approach to daily driving. Aptera would have been great. Evaro, for which there is no guarantee that it will ever be produced, would be better.

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's the blog for the Duo:

http://electriccarthatcould.blogspot.com/

The Duo exists as a foam mockup. I got this from:

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/02/02/all-electric-myers-motors-duo-trike-on-target-for-april-2011-del/

[PatQ562]

Doesn't particular ease the frustration, but Aptera is not the only one struggling to ship a product. The Duo was supposed to be "unveiled" Sept 2009. Now they are projecting unveiling Mar 2011, but as we speak, still have only a foam mockup. Can they really produce a rolling car in another 6 weeks? "Pre-production" samples are supposed to ship to early adopters in April. It's brave (in a way) to ship unrefined, untested samples to real customers, who presumably accept the attendant risks and are willing to help identify problems, but when will they be able to routinely take orders and ship reliable vehicles? And this is a much less ambitious design, which is not altogether bad, but again, should be easier to finish than Aptera's elevated target.

Pat Q

[evmavin]

What they will do is sink more money than they did before into a non-profitable product if they ever finish. Then they will sell it at a loss and find they can't make money and then finally close. If they can't sell them for about $12K it's not going to last. Cool, but not profitable.

[oakn]

It depends where in the design process the mock up is. Have all the other components been evaluated and tested? Is the mock up for the mold progression?

As to the 10 that are being built, my understanding is they are test vehicles, much like one of the global automaker's testing of a small ev globally to refine the production model. I wish it could be a couple of hundred test vehicles, but it is better than simply releasing and building an instant reputation for junk. Of course, much better than promising to release something for years on end, but never doing it.

From Tesla, Chevy to Ford, test vehicles have been used more than normal on the new ev's and hybrid markets. Personally, I am under-whelmed by Nissan, Mitsubishi and even Chevy, but in the reality of things this is a bit like turning the Titanic about to hit an iceberg with a canoe paddle. Still, each ev developed is more than we had before.

Maybe, if I close my eyes and click my heels I can be included in the test market...

[NmGfan]

It depends where in the design process the mock up is. Have all the other components been evaluated and tested? Is the mock up for the mold progression?

...snip...

Maybe, if I close my eyes and click my heels I can be included in the test market...

The foam model is for design verification. Body panel molds are in the process of being tooled up this month.

Rather than try the heel click you could contact Brad Hirsch at Myers Motors and ask if there is any room to join the development team (may be that someone canceled).

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

Doesn't particular ease the frustration, but Aptera is not the only one struggling to ship a product. The Duo was supposed to be "unveiled" Sept 2009. Now they are projecting unveiling Mar 2011, but as we speak, still have only a foam mockup. Can they really produce a rolling car in another 6 weeks? "Pre-production" samples are supposed to ship to early adopters in April. It's brave (in a way) to ship unrefined, untested samples to real customers, who presumably accept the attendant risks and are willing to help identify problems, but when will they be able to routinely take orders and ship reliable vehicles? And this is a much less ambitious design, which is not altogether bad, but again, should be easier to finish than Aptera's elevated target.

Pat Q
They revealed the rendered model back then (9/09), when I initiated this thread. They spent a lot of time in the "funding nuclear winter" during a crashed economy, but have managed to pull together the necessary funding by late 2010 to move forward with tooling development.
All the development team "test pilots" are willing to take the risks involved to give real world feedback to the factory before production launch. Production release models should be on the market by late summer or early autumn.

[PatQ562]

Still, each ev developed is more than we had before.
More in quantity terms, perhaps, but not more in terms of progress. The sad thing, really, is that NOT ONE of the mainstream vehicles measures up to the 1999 EV1 in terms of efficiency and performance. The big advantage of course is now we have "real batteries" using lithium, which would increase range of the EV1 to about 200 miles, while reducing weight and thereby further improving its already excellent acceleration.
Hope the Duo can hold to its schedule. It's not easy going the distance.
Pat Q

[evmavin]

They are tooling up molds but delivering cars in April, if that is the intent I hope they have many employees and their process worked out well. AC and FWD but no regen, why would that even be a debate?

[oakn]

Just curious after reading how the major automakers are justifying to consumers some of their pricing...

What would you trade out outside of performance and range to purchase an electric vehicle at up to 5-10% less - GPS? Advanced sound system? Electric windows? Cup holder? Visually impressive wheels? Any of these or none of these or what?


What makes a functional electric car an impressive electric car - Excellent soundproofing/quiet ride? Programmable heating/cooling when unoccupied? Plush seating you don’t stick to in sticky weather or freeze to in cold? Heated seats? No sense of road vibration? Impressive looks? 0 to 60 in 3.8 seconds? V2G? Any of these or none of these or what?

[PatQ562]

If an EV is going to cost $35K-$40K, then it's only affordable by those in the premium car market, who are going to want all the amenities. Even I would not sacrifice nice features for only 5-10% off such a high price point. Automakers know this and act accordingly.

My personal dream car will cost HALF AS MUCH ($15K-$20K), use less than half the material content of the above mainstream vehicle, thus enabling the price reduction, and use ingenious engineering and ruthless pruning of non-essentials to keep labor cost low. It will not be afraid to feature the resulting design decisions (such as open-frame mesh seating, screw heads holding panels together, simplified door and window design, aerodynamic shapes, and generally light construction) as part of the vehicle's personality. Such an EV will actually prove comfortable to drive due to lack of vibration, quiet running, and proper attention to basics like driver position and control locations. Such a car will prove amazingly economical due to high efficiency, freedom from gas pricing, inherently low-maintenance technology, and low wear on tires and brakes. All this of course requires extraordinary once-in-a- generation design vision and brilliance.

It was interesting watching walk-in observers at Aptera's publicity event last March. Attracted by the bold shapes, people were parking and walking over to look at the cars. There were several prototypes, and some had exposed wiring and other "no-no's". The observers took this in stride -- "look at this, Ethel, huh" -- assuming this was a trade-off for getting the incredible economy and performance. I didn't see anyone turn away in disgust, even though anyone could see the wiring could easily be concealed.

The "brave gamble" that no mainstream company wants to take (or even needs to take) is that many people will actually take perverse pride in driving a minimalist car IF THE VEHICLE WORKS WELL. If you buy a clever but austere car for a low price that actually serves you well, you feel like you made a smart decision, especially if the cleverness allows you to overcome austerity with a bit of skill. For example, big cars need power windows and door locks so you can control the far side from the driver's seat. Small cars let you reach right over and do it directly. This kind of "secret convenience" constantly re-assures drivers that they made a smart decision, while the "suckers" continue to pour money into their overstuffed land yachts. Good design of this sort can even create some forgiveness of warranty problems, because the car still has potential to please. Of course, if the car is unpleasant and awkward, then it's just a cheap loser.

It usually takes a strong personal vision to achieve a good minimalist design. A design committee will inevitably choose a safer, nicer, more predictable course. The inherent problem today is that a 4-wheel car must meet so many intricate safety and emission requirements that it REQUIRES a committee to design it - it's beyond the skill and vision of a single architect.

Pat Q

[oakn]

"For example, big cars need power windows and door locks so you can control the far side from the driver's seat. Small cars let you reach right over and do it directly."

Reminds me a bit of what a ev owner said about her relatives Land Yacht... .."It was like being in an enclosed city on wheels or command center you didn't need to leave...and it was pretending to be a luxury car!"

I imagine it had tv, dvr, in car cup heater, seat heater/chiller, gps, phone, maybe an in car bar, surround sound stereo, automatic lumbar assessment/adjustment, automatically darkening sunroof windows and capacity to take an entire office party although one person normally rides in it...

For myself, I might use the seat heater/cooler because it draws far less than the energy required to heat and cool the cabin...

[Grendal]

If an EV is going to cost $35K-$40K, then it's only affordable by those in the premium car market, who are going to want all the amenities. Even I would not sacrifice nice features for only 5-10% off such a high price point. Automakers know this and act accordingly.

My personal dream car will cost HALF AS MUCH ($15K-$20K), use less than half the material content of the above mainstream vehicle, thus enabling the price reduction, and use ingenious engineering and ruthless pruning of non-essentials to keep labor cost low. It will not be afraid to feature the resulting design decisions (such as open-frame mesh seating, screw heads holding panels together, simplified door and window design, aerodynamic shapes, and generally light construction) as part of the vehicle's personality. Such an EV will actually prove comfortable to drive due to lack of vibration, quiet running, and proper attention to basics like driver position and control locations. Such a car will prove amazingly economical due to high efficiency, freedom from gas pricing, inherently low-maintenance technology, and low wear on tires and brakes. All this of course requires extraordinary once-in-a- generation design vision and brilliance.

It was interesting watching walk-in observers at Aptera's publicity event last March. Attracted by the bold shapes, people were parking and walking over to look at the cars. There were several prototypes, and some had exposed wiring and other "no-no's". The observers took this in stride -- "look at this, Ethel, huh" -- assuming this was a trade-off for getting the incredible economy and performance. I didn't see anyone turn away in disgust, even though anyone could see the wiring could easily be concealed.

The "brave gamble" that no mainstream company wants to take (or even needs to take) is that many people will actually take perverse pride in driving a minimalist car IF THE VEHICLE WORKS WELL. If you buy a clever but austere car for a low price that actually serves you well, you feel like you made a smart decision, especially if the cleverness allows you to overcome austerity with a bit of skill. For example, big cars need power windows and door locks so you can control the far side from the driver's seat. Small cars let you reach right over and do it directly. This kind of "secret convenience" constantly re-assures drivers that they made a smart decision, while the "suckers" continue to pour money into their overstuffed land yachts. Good design of this sort can even create some forgiveness of warranty problems, because the car still has potential to please. Of course, if the car is unpleasant and awkward, then it's just a cheap loser.

It usually takes a strong personal vision to achieve a good minimalist design. A design committee will inevitably choose a safer, nicer, more predictable course. The inherent problem today is that a 4-wheel car must meet so many intricate safety and emission requirements that it REQUIRES a committee to design it - it's beyond the skill and vision of a single architect.

Pat Q

The old Geo Metro fits your description well. A basic lightweight car. With better aerodynamics it probably would have gotten around 60 MPG. People continue to trade those vehicles for way over their market value because of the high demand for them.

[rayfellow]

Hmm... Sounds kind of like... hay! The Edison VLC!

[oakn]

I could have swore (is that a word) I saw a DUO going down the road... Trouble with that was I was watching me drive it... Shucks, it was a dream.

On a more serious note I wonder how the crisis in Japan is affecting all of the ev makers plans, 3, 4 and 2 wheel? Anyone know?

...I believe (without any evidence) we will hear something about the DUO by the early part of March.

..one more serious question...why would ANYONE consider purchasing a 3 wheeled electric vehicle, Aptera, Duo, Triac or whatever?

[PatQ562]

..one more serious question...why would ANYONE consider purchasing a 3 wheeled electric vehicle, Aptera, Duo, Triac or whatever?

The only reason in my book is if the 3-wheeler is MUCH lighter, more efficient and cheaper than a mainstream car -- filling the gap between a motorcycle and a regular car. All 4 wheel cars must meet Federal safety standards, driving up weight, cost, and development time, resulting in a vehicle much like all the others already on the highway. If a 3-wheel design ends up having similar efficiency and cost as available 4-wheel cars, it's a non-starter in my book.

Pat Q

[shotgunslade]

I want something to do the 10 mile round trip to the train every day. I want something to do the 2 mile round trip to the grocery store, drugstore and hardware store on the weekend. Even to take my wife and I out to dinner in town 2 miles away. Cranking up my OUtback or Saab 9-5 to make these trips seems crazy. I probably use more gasoline starting the car than I do driving to the grocery store. My bicycle is limited in carrying capacity and weather readiness. A 3 wheeler EV would be just the thing. Would I drive it 47 miles on the Jersey Turnpike to Newark Airport? Only if the airport parking garage had a charging station or I couldn't make a decent train connection to the airport. Ultimately, I would ditch the 9-5 and just have the Outback and the 3 wheeler.

[oakn]

...normally I drop off my landlord at the airport now with my Honda Insight. Could your family take you to the airport in the Aptera, Triac or DUO? Likely with requests your airport will think about installing a charging station. Without requests they probably don't see the need.

[shotgunslade]

I think they would probably put in a charging system at Newark Airport, especially after we get a few EV's in the area. It a 94 mile round trip, much at 70mph, so, uncomfortably close to the limit of most EV's. Wouldn't want to emulate the Zap in the X-Prize final run, coasting to a stop a few miles from the prize. What I really want is EV parking at the train station. That way, I wouldnt have to leave at O dark thirty to get a decent parking place.

[shotgunslade]

An observation: Both Myers Motors and Green Vehicles seem to be falling into the same pattern as Aptera. As they suffer setbacks that affect their schedule, they stonewall their most committeed supporters, their depositors. I sent them both emails, telling them that depositors had already showed their commitment with their money.

Depositors will understand setbacks. If anything, they might relish the drama of the ebb and flow of development. Each positive step will be greeted with joy and enthusiasm and each setback met with understanding and shared disappointment. The point is that it is a mistake to put your supporters in a separate camp, depriving them of information, and let them create their own imagined demons.

It is very difficult to tolerate an undefined delay with no substantive input through the process. How much do we hate it, sitting on a parked airliner, well behind schedule, with the pilot offering no explanation and no likely causes or outcomes. Airlines seem to have taken this on board, and pilots recently have been offering explanations of what is giong on, even if the explanation is that ATC has imposed an indeterminate hold. At least we know then that the pilot is as frustrated as are we. It certainly deflects a lot of rancor from the pilot.

EV development companies should learn this lesson from the airlines.

[PatQ562]

'Nuff said!
Pat Q

[NmGfan]

I could have swore (is that a word) I saw a DUO going down the road... Trouble with that was I was watching me drive it... Shucks, it was a dream.

On a more serious note I wonder how the crisis in Japan is affecting all of the ev makers plans, 3, 4 and 2 wheel? Anyone know?

...I believe (without any evidence) we will hear something about the DUO by the early part of March.

..one more serious question...why would ANYONE consider purchasing a 3 wheeled electric vehicle, Aptera, Duo, Triac or whatever?

For me, the three-wheelers, being motorcycles, give instant no-sticker-required access to HOV lanes on local freeways and expressways (a Santa Clara County, CA novelty) and segregated motorcycle only parking spaces. Second to that, I've found nothing available (for sale today) with four wheels that burns less than 175Wh/mi at 70mph on the freeway, so efficiency is in the three-wheelers favor. That efficiency allows for a smaller pack size, which permits a level 1 charge (115V, available everywhere) to actually be effective in a short period of time (1.4kWh/hr maximum on my EV, typically I run about 1.1kWh/hr for an "opportunity charge" say during lunch hour).

Having said all that, today I had the opportunity to DRIVE a Tesla Roadster at the Keiretsu Forum held at the Microsoft Tech Center in Mountain View, CA. That's right, not a test ride, a test DRIVE. The only restriction was to stay off US 101 during the rainy commute this morning. Otherwise, my observer, Nicole, pretty much said floor-it out of the parking lot and follow the driving directions she would blurt out. What a blast, outstanding acceleration, firm sporty suspension, go-kart steering (quick ratio like the NmG), and a mighty tight fit (less space per person than the NmG) that required instruction to enter (pretty much like the Aptera's at the Stanford event back in 2008(!). Cozy super-fun little commuter, but completely over the top on price (and people thought I spent too much on my NmG).

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

An observation: Both Myers Motors and Green Vehicles seem to be falling into the same pattern as Aptera. As they suffer setbacks that affect their schedule, they stonewall their most committeed supporters, their depositors. I sent them both emails, telling them that depositors had already showed their commitment with their money.

Depositors will understand setbacks. If anything, they might relish the drama of the ebb and flow of development. Each positive step will be greeted with joy and enthusiasm and each setback met with understanding and shared disappointment. The point is that it is a mistake to put your supporters in a separate camp, depriving them of information, and let them create their own imagined demons.

It is very difficult to tolerate an undefined delay with no substantive input through the process. How much do we hate it, sitting on a parked airliner, well behind schedule, with the pilot offering no explanation and no likely causes or outcomes. Airlines seem to have taken this on board, and pilots recently have been offering explanations of what is giong on, even if the explanation is that ATC has imposed an indeterminate hold. At least we know then that the pilot is as frustrated as are we. It certainly deflects a lot of rancor from the pilot.

EV development companies should learn this lesson from the airlines.

There is information coming out of Myers Motors, most all of it indicates progress in getting the initial Duo built. The "Beta-Test" team members do get updates on progress, and have access to a dedicated information site where questions posted do get answered. In comparison to Aptera Motors, Myers Motors is actually tooling up using money raised from private investors, not playing with chair races in a couple hundred thousand square foot empty warehouse waiting for a government loan to "get started". One thing is certain, it did take Myers a little over a year to obtain funding in a crashed economy, their biggest set-back.

:happy0025:

[Grendal]

Having said all that, today I had the opportunity to DRIVE a Tesla Roadster at the Keiretsu Forum held at the Microsoft Tech Center in Mountain View, CA. That's right, not a test ride, a test DRIVE. The only restriction was to stay off US 101 during the rainy commute this morning. Otherwise, my observer, Nicole, pretty much said floor-it out of the parking lot and follow the driving directions she would blurt out. What a blast, outstanding acceleration, firm sporty suspension, go-kart steering (quick ratio like the NmG), and a mighty tight fit (less space per person than the NmG) that required instruction to enter (pretty much like the Aptera's at the Stanford event back in 2008(!). Cozy super-fun little commuter, but completely over the top on price (and people thought I spent too much on my NmG).

:happy0025:

I'm jealous! Not that I can afford it, but I'm getting excited about the Model S. Not lightweight and aerodynamic but I'd like to support the company that really started the electric revolution.

[oakn]

NMGfan

I'm encouraged to know there are people in the loop and they are feeling okay about this. I appreciate the Wh/hr comparison. Its helpful. Dana, the team and you beater testers are in my thoughts. Mucho success and can't wait til we can hear about it out on the road.

Driving the Tesla... wow I bet that was a trip! I am SO hoping to put our home on the map for charging opportunities so we can "host" ev visitors. Let's see... Duo, NMG, Tesla, Tango, Triac, MiEV, Leaf, Empulse are just a few visitors I hope I get to see in the next year. (and not a moment too soon.)

Saludos,

Oken

[oakn]

Does anyone have any advice to making a good first impression when I go to register a 3 wheeled electric vehicle? In Michigan, only gasoline powered 2 and 3 wheelers are considered motorcycles on the books. They also need to be titled as motorcycles... Hmm... I hope to go by Thursday to test their response ...

[NmGfan]

When I went through the adventure here in CA, the DMV inspection was very minor, turn signals function, brake light function, motor serial number (they couldn't believe the low number with only three digits!) and the VIN plate (here I got zapped, I needed a second one!). The second VIN plate required a trip to the local CA Highway Patrol vehicle inspection station where they created an official "second" VIN plate and mounted it on the "fire wall" of the front battery compartment. One more trip to the DMV to show-off that new VIN plate and it was registered.
One interesting side note, I did not get the usual registration renewal in the mail for three years; had to fill out a "release" request last year so they would mail it to me. The fourth year was a charm, just got the renewal in the mail for this year!

:happy0025:

[shotgunslade]

NMGFan:

I did not see the NMG on th list of California Zero emissions battery electric vehicles. Is it on the list? In NJ, I am eligible to avoid sales tax and to get up to a $4,000 income tax credit, if I purchase a vehicle that is on the California Zero emissions list. I know that Green Vehicles, since they are in CA and have state grants fo creating employment, will get their vehicle on the list. I have spoken to Myers Motors about it, and got a semi-positive response.

[oakn]

Yipes, today I was told by my insurance agent I'm not able to insure the DUO, or any other electric motor cycle. No one will cover it. I know they do it in other states... Without insurance I can't go to the DMV. Michigan...

[SlowSRT4]

Yipes, today I was told by my insurance agent I'm not able to insure the DUO, or any other electric motor cycle. No one will cover it. I know they do it in other states... Without insurance I can't go to the DMV. Michigan...
I think you mean SOS. We don't have a DMV in Michigan. :tongue0006:

[oakn]

Secretary of State. Correct. This means you might know an answer? (hopefully)... or have started some research into which insurance companies will cover an Aptera?

[SlowSRT4]

Secretary of State. Correct. This means you might know an answer? (hopefully)... or have started some research into which insurance companies will cover an Aptera?
You will have to register and insure it as a motorcycle. You'll likely also need a motorcycle endorsement on your license. Full coverage insurance is a long-shot, and PLPD is probably all you can get.

I haven't done any research on insurance companies because I've given up on the Aptera ever coming here. If it does make it here, great, but I'm not holding my breath. Gave up on the DUO and Arcimoto as well. Right now my front-runner is the Fiat 500 EV, but there are others and very little information to compare them. Whatever I end up getting, it will most likely have 4 wheels.

[oakn]

Finally after mentioning Progressive carries Myers Motors in other states...

"Ben,

No we do not carry Farmers. Yes, Progressive will write the Myers Motors. The reason they can’t write physical damage on the Corbin is that they can no longer get parts for them.

Thanks,"
XXXX, My Insurance Agent


So I can go to Secretary of State with proof of insurance for (electric) motorcycle registration and get on the road... Roughly it may run about $670.00 per six months... we won't know until we get more info on the DUO. She didn't tell me up front, but I can save money if I've taken the motorcycle safety class.

[NmGfan]

Yipes, today I was told by my insurance agent I'm not able to insure the DUO, or any other electric motor cycle. No one will cover it. I know they do it in other states... Without insurance I can't go to the DMV. Michigan...

Here in CA, I contacted State Farm Insurance, and they insured my NmG with no questions or concerns. I asked for full coverage, "no problem" was their response. The insurance cost was $252/year, and has since fallen to about $232 in the fourth year.
When I asked my insurance agent about insuring the Duo, her response was that I could get coverage after the underwriting process(?) was complete. So, check out State Farm Insurance for your electric three-wheelers!
As for parts, Sparrow parts for the "Pizza Butt" version (Myers Motors NmG) are available from Myers Motors. The Corbin's "Jelly Bean" Sparrow is out of luck for body parts that are behind the driver though.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

All parts pending the future closure of Myers EV division or et al.

[NmGfan]

:sign0020:
More FUD eh?
Has your Leaf left you stranded yet? Make sure you get off the road before you try a shutdown-restart (non-starter there). I'm sure Nissan will get to the root cause eventually.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

:sign0020:
More FUD eh?
Has your Leaf left you stranded yet? Make sure you get off the road before you try a shutdown-restart (non-starter there). I'm sure Nissan will get to the root cause eventually.

:happy0025:


You mean the non-issue that was blown out of proportion. I have 1500 carefree miles on my LEAF, if Myers ever sells cars I seriously doubt they will be as reliable as a LEAF or any better then what they have sold before. Speaking of which, when do these EVs begin selling? I'm still open on that pizza bet before this site dies with the Aptera and Duo. When can one buy a Duo, not a beta tester but the general public and what is the worst case delivery date? Price? Range? I hold to my opinion that they will loose money on this venture and never profit from selling these EVs. The longer they wait the more money they bleed out.

[NmGfan]

Base Model
Price: $25K
Range: 60 miles

Extended Range Model
Price: $29K
Range: 100 miles

Profitable on each model at those prices and still taking reservations.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Base Model
Price: $25K
Range: 60 miles



Extended Range Model
Price: $29K
Range: 100 miles

Profitable on each model at those prices and still taking reservations.

:happy0025:

How can they be profitable when they have yet to pay off their investments? They have not even sold a car yet, one car will make the company a profitable, sorry that's number twisting. If they sell 100 cars I doubt they will break even on TOTAL costs as that is what is needed to be PROFITABLE. How many millions do they have in this project, not materials but all business costs, that is how you can calculate a profitable company over a single item profit based on unrealistic sales projections. Unless they are made of cardboard and they have 1000 confirmed orders:)

These cars will be ready to purchase when? Give me the worst-case delivery date for the first deliveries to non-testers, a real non-moving date. Then add two months for good measure and let's see where we are then and how many are sold in total a year after that date.

[PatQ562]

In all fairness, "profitable" usually means making money on each unit produced (as opposed to selling below cost). To get "return on investment" you need profitability AND volume. Unfortunately it takes a lot of investment to reduce production costs to the point where a start-up company's vehicle can be sold, at a profit, at the price it's really worth. The problem with NMG, Arcimoto and the many others is they're trying to sell "half a car" (usually 2 seats, limited range) for "twice the price". This is not going to result in high volume sales.

Tesla is having moderate success with an alternate approach - make the car "twice as good" so it can sell for a premium price.

Pat Q

[evmavin]

My point on profit that started years ago was they make bad business decisions and that this is yet another one that will end up as a loss in the end, not a profit and not a break even, a business loss in the end. From day one with the NMG I said it would never turn a profit and it did not and they same I expect to happen here, hope and wishful thinking is not a good business model and not understanding how to market a product is also a detriment.

[SEGsby]

But they at least, have actual cars on the road...

[evmavin]

But they at least, have actual cars on the road...


Then they should file as a non-profit or charity.

[randyd]

Then they should file as a non-profit or charity.

OK. You won't be an investor anytime soon. We get that. You probably won't buy a Duo for yourself. We get that.

I, for one, am not hear to discuss business styles, structures, approaches, etc. I am here to discuss and learn about Battery Electric Vehicles.

Got anything to add on that topic?

[evmavin]

Sure, let's find one here that has a better than 50% chance of being sold and focus on that one, so far i don't see one except the LEAF, Focus, Mits and Think which will likely tank which is why I sold mine. So other than lots of concept cars that are set up to fail from poor business models (not important in the success of a product) what EVs are there?

[jhm614]

It looks like BMW's MegaCity is creeping closer to 2013 reality. BMW has formally announced it and spy shots are starting to show up, so I would put it on the list. Although I have recently read that it might have a range extender... ouch...
BMW Press Release (http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_prod/e/nav/index.html?http://www.bmwgroup.com/bmwgroup_prod/e/0_0_www_bmwgroup_com/investor_relations/corporate_news/news/2010/MCV_2013.html)
Spy Shots (http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/03/08/bmw-i3-megacity-spotted-for-the-first-time/)
Ugh, MegaCity Range Extender? (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/16/rumormill-bmw-megacity-to-get-optional-range-extender/)


And assuming Tesla doesn't go broke or get bought and closed by Toyota, I think the Model S will actually happen in 2012. If I had the coin... I would go for it.
Model S (http://www.teslamotors.com/models)

[PatQ562]

And there's the somewhat unloved Wheego, the first one of which was recently delivered to an actual customer. "They said it couldn't be done" but they got themselves thru the DOT approval process. There's supposed to be 500 cars in the first run. I'm awaiting notice that an actual demo unit is at my nearby dealer.

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

The BMW looks pretty good -- practical, anyway:

http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW_i3_L_011-655x436.jpg (http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/04/29/new-rendering-2013-bmw-i3/)
(click on image for link)

The Wheego seems to suffer from "solvable" issues -- lots of front wheel drive centering pull on the steering when accelerating, which was a problem that was solved about 25 years ago. (I'm forgetting the correct technical name for this...) My friend's 1980(1?) Honda Civic CVCC had this, while my 1987 VW Golf had a lot less.

[evmavin]

Torque steer, but who would pay that much for the Wheego, that company better revamp their entire strategy. As far as BMW all I see are concepts and overweight conversions with HUGE 40kwh plus packs to give the range since they are not efficient. I'm interested to see that weight of the Focus when it is released, if it's really going to be 3700 plus that is going to be a real efficiency hit.

[PatQ562]

It sounds like Neil is referring to "torque steer". There are several causes and tradeoffs. Older car steering geometry used to steer into drag on one side such as hitting a soft shoulder, requiring the driver to actively correct to maintain direction. This same geometry will tend to self-center more under FWD. Using more complex steering geometry, the axis of wheel pivoting can be moved so it intersects the road at the middle of the tire, or even towards the outside, which largely neutralizes this tendency but also reduces the feel of the road. The same goes for power steering which the Wheego may lack, and they probably have relatively unsophisticated steering geometry. Modern cars have largely gone for neutralized steering since it is deemed safer, and indeed, my vintage cars are somewhat of a handful when changing lanes on concrete roads. But in modern cars I miss the direct feel of the road conditions.
Even with these mods, truly powerful FWD cars such as the Mini-e put so much stress on the front tires under acceleration that the car still dances around due to random variations in road surfaces. This is why RWD is still popular for high performance machines.
Geeze, I hope the BMW rendering is some juvenile student attempt to explore "aggressiveness" and not a serious proposal. Haven't we had enough of ugly BMWs? The basic body shape seems OK, although I don't much care for stepping the kidney-grille back from the bumper as much, but I could definitely do without the gratuitously ugly "frown lines" and lighting fixture details.
Pat Q

[shotgunslade]

There is a 2010 Wheego Whip currently on eBay. Buy it now for $14,995.

Here is the description:

We offer this 2010 Wheego Whip All Electric car with 111 miles and equipped with Power/Remote door locks, Power assist windows,AM/FM/CD with MP3/usb, Full size spare tire, Electric outside mirrors, range is about 40 miles, charge times is a 8 hrs for a full charge, Battery pack: Discover Absorbed glass mat valve regulated sealed maintenance free 12/8 Volt batteries at 170AH = 16.32 kwh - Horsepower: 17.5 Nominal/ 40 Peak

This All electric car is complete and ready to go! Please contact us 804-966-8636 if you have questions

Here is the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-2010-Wheego-Whip-All-Electric-Car-L-k-/220775385575?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item33673d09e7

Don't think I want it, even at that price.

[SEGsby]

I've mentioned before that I got to see and touch one at the LA Auto Show... Was nothing about it I was interested in.

[randyd]

So other than lots of concept cars that are set up to fail from poor business models (not important in the success of a product) what EVs are there?

I give the T3 Motion "GT3" (formerly the "R3") a pretty good chance of making it to market.
http://www.t3motion.com/images/GT3-Red-1.jpg

The main thread about them is here (http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=58708&postcount=1).

I don't "get" the double rear wheel (does it get registered as a motorcycle or not?) and it has little-to-no aero in the design. A LOT has to happen for it to make it to MY garage, but I do expect to be able to buy one in 2011 or 2012.

[PatQ562]

Agreed the Whip is priced way beyond its objective value (even more so than other EVs), a factor I plan to note, assuming I don't go thru with my purchase reservation after finally getting a test drive.

I saw the T3Motion GT3 at last Saturday's Cars 'n Coffee in Irvine, a short hop from the company, located in Costa Mesa. The "dualie" rear wheel is legally a single wheel as the two tires are mounted on one common wheel, so it qualifies as a motorcycle. The company owner says he did this for looks after trying a single tire. It's FWD so the rear wheel just comes along for the ride. The aero is only fair but the weight is supposed to be as low as 1000 lbs. They plan to make ICE, hybrid and BEVs ranging from $12K to $30K (gives some idea of the cost disparities). The concept proto is more fully finished inside than a T-Rex but the auxiliary equipment list is comparably lean and simple, although I did see stereo speakers. It's much closer to a motorcycle than a closed-cabin car. Think in terms of an even leaner Lotus.

T3Motion makes police mobility vehicles (larger Segway-like things) so they have an existing financial base. The owner is in control and will build the car the way he wants to, which yields some hope for at least an interesting alternative, although "fun to drive" appears to trump the maximum possible efficiency - which will probably sell more cars in a niche market anyway.

Pat Q

[PatQ562]

There is a 2010 Wheego Whip currently on eBay. Buy it now for $14,995.

Oh by the way, the above quote references the slow-speed NEV version, the Wheego Whip. Same basic body platform, but 25mph and limited range. The full speed LiFE version "ought to cost" about $10K after all incentives (ie, well under $20K list price) if they really want them to sell but that's not possible at today's battery prices.

Pat Q

[SlowSRT4]

It sounds like Neil is referring to "torque steer".

Even with these mods, truly powerful FWD cars such as the Mini-e put so much stress on the front tires under acceleration that the car still dances around due to random variations in road surfaces. This is why RWD is still popular for high performance machines.
My car is 285 hp, 265 tq to the front wheels. :cool:

When the turbo spools, the car makes an automatic lane change (right or left depending on its mood). :tongue0006:

[evmavin]

Excluding VW, I think the only EVs that will be sold in any reasonable numbers will only come from Tesla and the big Auto makers. There is not a single viable three wheel EV that will likely make it past 100-200 units. Nothing that has been shown in public so far. Anyone want to make a pizza bet on that one? Most everything here is just wishful thinking and forum dreams. Aptera had a decent chance prior to team frat house, it's fun to see them and have favorites but let's get realistic on the viability on these as they stand today. Some are an outright joke as commercial products but great hobby ideas.

[SEGsby]

Team Frat House!!! AHAHAHAHAHA!

[IanO]

Excluding VW, I think the only EVs that will be sold in any reasonable numbers will only come from Tesla and the big Auto makers. There is not a single viable three wheel EV that will likely make it past 100-200 units. Nothing that has been shown in public so far. Anyone want to make a pizza bet on that one? Most everything here is just wishful thinking and forum dreams. Aptera had a decent chance prior to team frat house, it's fun to see them and have favorites but let's get realistic on the viability on these as they stand today. Some are an outright joke as commercial products but great hobby ideas.

OK, I'll take that bet. I think the Arcimoto SRK (http://www.arcimoto.com/) will sell over 200 units. Conveniently for the bet, they share a building with the Pizza Research Institute!

Don't forget that existing 3 wheelers have already met your target; the Sparrow/nMg had sold over 300 by 2007.

[evmavin]

OK, I'll take that bet. I think the Arcimoto SRK (http://www.arcimoto.com/) will sell over 200 units. Conveniently for the bet, they share a building with the Pizza Research Institute!

Don't forget that existing 3 wheelers have already met your target; the Sparrow/nMg had sold over 300 by 2007.

I did not say you could lump multiple companies together to get numbers. The Sparrow was a Corwin product and the NMG was Myers. Let's discuss DUO and others. Ok, on for the Acrimoto DC glorified NEV, 200 to consumers directly, must be able to drive on freeway.

[IanO]

I did not say you could lump multiple companies together to get numbers. The Sparrow was a Corwin product and the NMG was Myers. Let's discuss DUO and others. Ok, on for the Arcimoto DC glorified NEV, 200 to consumers directly, must be able to drive on freeway.

Fighting words, for a vehicle that is designed for the freeway, has racecar suspension, and is described by test drivers to "drive like a shark".

For that attitude, I'll demand a deluxe. :)

[NmGfan]

OK, I'll take that bet. I think the Arcimoto SRK (http://www.arcimoto.com/) will sell over 200 units. Conveniently for the bet, they share a building with the Pizza Research Institute!

Don't forget that existing 3 wheelers have already met your target; the Sparrow/nMg had sold over 300 by 2007.

Corbin Motors (1999 - 2004) sold 330 Sparrows before they shut down in 2004, both the "Jelly Bean" style like the model EVMavin once owned and the newer "Pizza Butt" style (supposedly designed for Domino's as Pizza delivery vehicles) with a trunk lid.

Myers Motors purchased the remaining 70 shells and the entire parts inventory from Corbin in late '04/early '05 to build their NmG. There are only a few NmG's left at the factory, so Myers has assembled and sold almost 70 NmG's (about half using a 60 mile range Li-Ion pack).

So about 400 Sparrow/NmG's total produced.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Are they ready to launch yet? How are the beta testers doing with their cars?

[evmavin]

Still waiting. Tick Tock. I hear they are going to merge with Aptera. I missed the last news letter.

[evmavin]

So now that this PW mess is finally officially over I suppose Myers will be soon increasing their production for all of those that were going to get an Aptera. This should really double their sales this year right? How many did they sell this year?

[smilingcat]

Arcimobile:

just because it has double A suspension system don't make it race quality. Who are they kidding. There is so many variables and dynamics going into designing the front end that just because it looks like a race car setup doesn't mean its going to perform exceptionally well. Ken Fry and his Zing has found that out. And so did Aptera.

I'm just flabbergasted to see people modifying their trucks by putting bigger coils and adding extra shocks.

Meyer motors:

NmGl is ugly. Styling is poor. On their home page I see an orange car with much better styling. I might be interested in that one. I guess its called Duo.

[palmer_md]

The DUO is the topic of this thread...but it has strayed way off topic at times. The question still remains. How many have they sold? They missed the market for their vehicle by about 5 years. It could have done well in 2006-2008.

[evmavin]

My guess is zero and they will fold like Aptera after they burn more money. They are going to need to sell many cars to make up for all this investment plus the money blown on the NMG. I'm sticking to my prediction back when they bought the Corbin stuff a long time ago when EVs were not even available. Bad idea. They did not learn then and they insist on burning money now. The model does not work at the price point.

[Ken Fry]

The DUO is the topic of this thread...but it has strayed way off topic at times. The question still remains. How many have they sold? They missed the market for their vehicle by about 5 years. It could have done well in 2006-2008.

As far as I know, actual sales are 0. Last I checked, they were still trying to determine a price. $29,995 plus $5000 for the 100 mile range option seems a bit steep. That makes the price to the consumer about $10,000 higher than Leaf price, which in some states is down around $25,000 even at the new price.

I'd like to know more, for corporate espionage purposes.

I have friends with the original single-seaters made by Corbin. They are fun and perform well when updated with modern battery packs.

[Ken Fry]

Ken Fry and his Zing has found that out. And so did Aptera.


This makes it sound as if maybe the Zing didn't initially handle well. It has always handled well, despite having race-tuned hyper-drive double-wishbone rectangular-cross-section-morphing-into-circular-cross-section suspension arms in front. Problems with the Aptera geometry alone (aside from CG location issues) could be seen from 50 feet away.

[evmavin]

This makes it sound as if maybe the Zing didn't initially handle well. It has always handled well, despite having race-tuned hyper-drive double-wishbone rectangular-cross-section-morphing-into-circular-cross-section suspension arms in front. Problems with the Aptera geometry alone (aside from CG location issues) could be seen from 50 feet away.


The Herman Miller design?

[Ken Fry]

The Herman Miller design?

I think I'm lost. :)

[evmavin]

They make high-end office chairs. Perhaps you saw them speed tested in an Aptera video?

[Ken Fry]

They make high-end office chairs. Perhaps you saw them speed tested in an Aptera video?

Ah yes... it's all become clear. :)