Is everything ok @ Aptera motors?

[Matthijs]

I just received some messages from someone who wants to stay anonymous but it pretty disturbing news and I really hope it's not true.

Paul Wilbur has just sacrificed the company to line his own pockets. Crap, I'm crying This is exactly what he did to Saleen. Why did they hire him with a history like that? I'll never understand. He's marching around the place like a peacock and firing everyone. The design still needs work to make production numbers. What is he doing?
I am trying to get further news and responses but to me if this is true it doesn't make any sense. :confused: And is it even possible with Aptera company structure that a CEO can fire employees at will?

[randyd]

And is it even possible with Aptera company structure that a CEO can fire employees at will?
I am not fanning the rumor flames. I post this answer Matthijs' question.

From http://research.lawyers.com/California/Employment-Law-in-California.html

In California, employees are presumed to be "at will." At-will employees may be terminated for any reason, so long as it's not illegal. Generally, employees that work under an employment contract can only be terminated for reasons specified in the contract.

The list of illegal reasons for termination is short, and only includes reasons like race, sexual preference, and similar. So unless employees are working under a contract (very, very unusual) they can be terminated at any time for any reason.

Again, I have no direct or indirect information about this rumor.

[Matthijs]

Here is more:

Seems to think suspending operations til govt$$ come in will make him a rich man. So sad for Steve Fambro, he's a great guy being ruined.
I'm panicked someone like the Chinese could make an offer and PWilbur wld take it just to get rich and move onto destroy the next innovation
Management directors in a meeting now. Still waiting for the hatchet to finish falling.

[aptera1213]

mmm,

one...i would likely not give much more over the forum as what was said would be easy enough already to trace back to the source...the quotes are very specific in tone and style...

if you feel comfortable talking more to karen, i would do it through private messages for now...


two...this could be a lot of things (and nothing too)...

a) it could be a couple of people let go and one of them or a friend of theirs is upset...

b)it could be more massive "work force time off" if Aptera is waiting for the government funds and wants to temporarily decrease staff till more money rolls in. keeping the company lean and running till the money flows in in a few months...

c) it could be worse...but that seems unlikely

it could be nothing...that is more likely, but if your source is good, then i would go with a or b long before i believe c

[aptera1213]

ah, i was writing during your last message...

so B looks to be the answer (according to the source)...

i can see aptera scaling back til the money hits, but, of course, i would prefer they keeping working full (electric ;) ) throttle...

[aptera1213]

Put Steve back at the helm...

+1


i know little to nothing about running a company...and i know everybody says you can't have the designers and dreamers run a company...

but there must be exceptions to that rule...a designer who can also run a company?

[KarenRei]

Seems to think suspending operations til govt$$ come in will make him a rich man. So sad for Steve Fambro, he's a great guy being ruined.

Not to talk about the veracity of the rumors, but that makes no sense. If Wilbur is going to somehow make a ton of money, it's going to be through some sort of equity stake in the company. Which would make Steve rich as well.

[KarenRei]

but there must be exceptions to that rule...a designer who can also run a company?

Then they can't be an effective designer. It takes too much time to run a company -- especially the larger it gets.

[aptera1213]

you can make lots of money and still be "ruined"...basically if the poster thinks steve's car will be greatly delayed by this, greatly changed by this, or just out and out sold to china or wherever by this, then steve's dream could be ruined...

just trying to understand the poster...he/she seems very upset by all this...

i hope he/she is wrong and just overly emotional...

i also hope they don't scale back too much while they wait...i think they should go full speed ahead so the car is completely done...so when the money comes in they (aptera) and quickly ramp up and quickly move to other states

[Matthijs]

I am not fanning the rumor flames. I post this answer Matthijs' question.

From http://research.lawyers.com/California/Employment-Law-in-California.html


The list of illegal reasons for termination is short, and only includes reasons like race, sexual preference, and similar. So unless employees are working under a contract (very, very unusual) they can be terminated at any time for any reason.

Again, I have no direct or indirect information about this rumor.

That really very different from Holland. Here most people work under contract and you can only be fired because of work related issues or illegal practices. Or off course when your contract isn't extended.

[aptera1213]

mmm, half the posts i don't see anymore?

[Sapphire Dragon]

Well, whatever happens, I really hope they will be alright. Whether or not they have to cut back until the money comes in, I just hope they make the right decisions for the long term. A design and a company like the Aptera's deserves it.

[OC-LA driver]

If they do need additional capital, and if it's a choice between raising very expensive venture capital now, or waiting six months for incredibly cheap capital from the Feds, then it's rational to wait six months, assuming that doesn't dissipate value (through brain drain, nimbler competitors, or disillusioned customers). I want them to be the strongest possible company when the vehicle is issued for sale, so that acceptance will be rapid, profitability high, and long-term support for my vehicle more assured.

And I also wish it didn't take six months apparently to get the Federal money.

If for any reason their loan application is not approved, what a waste of time...I hope that risk is small.

[mweston]

If these rumors were true, I wouldn't think that Paul Wilbur would be speaking at the CleanTECH San Diego Showcase (posted in the Off Topic Discussion forum this morning). There would be too many difficult questions.

Unless of course when he agreed to appear he thought he would be able to keep these rumors under wraps.

[evmavin]

Aptera can technically say that they can launch without these funds. I'm sure that is true but a launch only needs to be a few cars, there are no difficult questions here as there is an answer for all of them. That's politics, we have seen that all along with the launch date. Aptera's issue is not answering questions as they always have an answer if deemed necessary. This is the world of start ups and Paul has nothing to worry about as I doubt there is no question he can't answer to their satisfaction.

[Stunt Driver]

Black PR it is.

[esmith]

One thing that puzzles me, suspending operations while waiting for DOE money only makes sense if they are having financial troubles ... but they should be awash in money. They just got 24M of funding last summer from Idealab, and probably more from other sources, they don't have more than 100 employees (as of last fall, they had 40), their lease on the building is ~1M/year. It's hard to burn through that kind of money quickly.

[esmith]

So Aptera Motors is a year behind introducing its much-ballyhooed electric and hybrid vehicles.

Blame it on me, says Paul B. Wilbur, president and chief executive of the startup, which electrified enthusiasts with claims that its Aptera vehicles would get up to 300 miles per gallon.

Wilbur says he insisted on changing the design to add features customers would expect, such as power windows.

...
Such changes pushed the beginning of production to the fall of this year. "In return for the delay, we're promising a better vehicle," Wilbur said.

An automotive industry veteran who joined Aptera in August [2008], Wilbur was hired to bring mainstream Detroit expertise to a company that began as a high-tech dream.

Steve Fambro, Aptera's founder, envisioned a three-wheeled (two in front, one in back), aerodynamically styled vehicle, made out of lightweight, tough carbon-fiber composites. The Aptera would be environmentally friendly, stunning to look at, and fun to drive.

Wilbur's role is to marry that vision with the manufacturing practicalities required to produce an efficient vehicle that meets government safety standards and that people will want to buy.

"Paul came in and acted as an advocate for the consumer," Fambro said. "He made the vehicle more usable, made it easier to get into and out of, features that probably most people would demand."

[evmavin]

One thing that puzzles me, suspending operations while waiting for DOE money only makes sense if they are having financial troubles ... but they should be awash in money. They just got 24M of funding last summer from Idealab, and probably more from other sources, they don't have more than 100 employees (as of last fall, they had 40), their lease on the building is ~1M/year. It's hard to burn through that kind of money quickly.


I heard they have a cafeteria that makes Google's look like a vending machine, that's where most of it went.

[KarenRei]

It's all about cupholders. They hired a professional cupholder engineering firm to maximize cupholder count and size with a minimal cupholder footprint. It's all okay, though; they can raise more money by selling off the patent rights on their "carbon-fiber cupholder-stacking center console" system. :cool:

[chucho]

So Aptera Motors is a year behind introducing its much-ballyhooed electric and hybrid vehicles.

Blame it on me, says Paul B. Wilbur, president and chief executive of the startup, which electrified enthusiasts with claims that its Aptera vehicles would get up to 300 miles per gallon.

Wilbur says he insisted on changing the design to add features customers would expect, such as power windows.

...
Such changes pushed the beginning of production to the fall of this year. "In return for the delay, we're promising a better vehicle," Wilbur said.

An automotive industry veteran who joined Aptera in August [2008], Wilbur was hired to bring mainstream Detroit expertise to a company that began as a high-tech dream.

Steve Fambro, Aptera's founder, envisioned a three-wheeled (two in front, one in back), aerodynamically styled vehicle, made out of lightweight, tough carbon-fiber composites. The Aptera would be environmentally friendly, stunning to look at, and fun to drive.

Wilbur's role is to marry that vision with the manufacturing practicalities required to produce an efficient vehicle that meets government safety standards and that people will want to buy.

"Paul came in and acted as an advocate for the consumer," Fambro said. "He made the vehicle more usable, made it easier to get into and out of, features that probably most people would demand."


...is it safe to assume you interviewed both Wilbur and Fambro?..


...or is this just one more wild guess in this (sometimes) surreal forum?

[KarenRei]

...is it safe to assume you interviewed both Wilbur and Fambro?..

He's quoting this:

http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_da12814f-3e56-5ba0-a9fb-7c27c2483f76.html

He probably should have included a link or at least put it on quotes or something to make that clear. :)

...or is this just one more wild guess in this (sometimes) surreal forum?

Q: How many surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Two. One to hold the giraffe and the other to fill the bathtub with brightly colored power tools.

(What? Surrealist jokes not your cup of fur? :) )

[esmith]

It's all about cupholders. They hired a professional cupholder engineering firm to maximize cupholder count and size with a minimal cupholder footprint. It's all okay, though; they can raise more money by selling off the patent rights on their "carbon-fiber cupholder-stacking center console" system. :cool:

It's more likely that they paid $8 million cash for a cupholder manufacturing startup consisting of a professor and a bunch of postgrad students out of South Dakota State University, and a few cupholder-related patents & technologies.

A company I work for did something similar once. Then six months later there was a change of direction and higher management decided to kill the entire project that was supposed to use purchased patents and technologies. Company bottom line took a seven digit hit.

He probably should have included a link or at least put it on quotes or something to make that clear.

Forum software does not allow me to post messages consisting purely of quotes.

[wishfulskeptic]

Perhaps my observation on Paul W. was closer to the mark than I thought. I never understood why anyone thought that it would be a good idea to bring in this guy and his crew to run an organization, when they come from the very companies and institutions that demonstrate best how not to run anything more complex than a girl scout lemonade stand.:thumbsup:

[NmGfan]

One thing that puzzles me, suspending operations while waiting for DOE money only makes sense if they are having financial troubles ... but they should be awash in money. They just got 24M of funding last summer from Idealab, and probably more from other sources, they don't have more than 100 employees (as of last fall, they had 40), their lease on the building is ~1M/year. It's hard to burn through that kind of money quickly.

It sounds like a lot of money until one considers the monthly burn rate, the cost to build prototype units, and the unplanned cost of retooling for all the changes that Mr. Wilbur advocated for after he arrived.

Assumptions:

$750K/month burn rate (payroll, rent, utilities, etc.) = $9 million

$100K/ea for Pre-Production prototypes times 15 units = $1.5 million

Unknowns:

Production mold tooling costs for entire vehicle; guessing low $ millions

Total = $12+ million

So even if Aptera hasn't spent a dime on scaling up manufacturing they've probably burned through about half the $24 million they got in 2008 already.

If Aptera planned to launch small scale (crawl) that leaves about $12 million for manufacturing scale-up. To build at a rate of 10 units/day with about 80 hours of labor in each vehicle generates the need for 100 assembly line folks at an average of $20/hr + benefits or about $5 million in labor costs alone. There is still an entire assembly line yet to capitalize to support that production rate and as evmavin pointed out earlier, all the components to build the vehicles have yet to be purchased and stocked in inventory. The money is barely there for a small scale launch that might produce about 2000 units in 2010, unless they of course ask for $10K down payments from reservation holders upon placing their orders. That could bring in an additional undiluted $20 million for those 2000 units.

It's all speculative, but $24 million in my experience is not much money to launch a medical device company with let alone something that is much more complex, labor intensive, with orders of magnitude more expensive components like in an innovative EV.

:happy0025:

[esmith]

$750K/month burn rate (payroll, rent, utilities, etc.) = $9 million

$100K/ea for Pre-Production prototypes times 15 units = $1.5 million

Unknowns:

Production mold tooling costs for entire vehicle; guessing low $ millions

Total = $12+ million

Pre-production prototypes and molds are built by people already on Aptera's payroll, no need to count them twice. Batteries and motors need to be purchased from third-party suppliers ... but, even in low volume, they shouldn't be spending more than 25k/vehicle on subcontracted parts, otherwise there's no hope for them to ever be profitable.

To build at a rate of 10 units/day with about 80 hours of labor in each vehicle generates the need for 100 assembly line folks at an average of $20/hr + benefits or about $5 million in labor costs alone.

First of all, if they have 100 employees already, that must include a sizable number of assembly line workers. Also, if they are going to start building 10 units/day without any sales for a year, they'll soon have Apteras stacked to the ceiling in that warehouse. Sales of 10/day would bring 5..10 mil/month in additional funding.

And did you see their production plan figures from the recent KGTV video? The 75 mil. loan was supposed to let them hire 3,000 workers and ramp up production to 100,000/year...

[Anthony]

An Aptera engineer that drove PP4 a lot, referred to is as a "half million dollar prototype" in Long Beach.

[jstdadd]

I have managed several technicians and engineers before, on three different jobs. I have had to lay people off, on several occasions. It is a truly crappy job, but if a manager wants to keep their job, they must have a short list of people 'first to go' on hand at all times.

One of the things you look at in the 4th quarter is: "Exactly how many people do I need between now and the end of the 1st quarter?"

If you think that you can get by without a few (or a few dozen) people, you do not want to pay them for holidays:animal0029: . November, December and January are notoriously slow months for manufacturing businesses, so you pick out those people and lay them off (with or without 'cause') at least two weeks before the first upcoming holiday. And you do not want to pay these people any 'end of year' or 'holiday' bonuses. Pay fewer employees more bonus money, instead. You don't want to pay for their (and guest) seats at the company holiday banquet; you don't want to buy the extra gift certificates or bottles of wine.

Guess what today is? Two weeks before the Thanksgiving Holiday. So, if you are going to give the traditional 'two weeks severance pay' and you don't want to pay for the holiday, you lay them off two weeks before the last workday before the holiday. Today (Wednesday).

I'm guessing that less than 12 people got the axe; that would be 8-10% of the workforce, to my knowledge.

And I would bet $20 that Aptera does not make their own molds. Much cheaper to let a company with that expertise make the molds - otherwise you have a bunch of expensive, in-house talent that you get to reassign to different jobs once your molds are completed. Even for mold repair and mods, you go outside for that work. It is extremely specialized. A technician that molds parts is not the same talent as the artisan craftsman that makes molds. Aptera could never keep mold-makers (actually, 'pattern makers') busy.

Just my $0.02 worth. Not worth more than your $0.02 worth. And worth less every day, in American money.

[NmGfan]

Pre-production prototypes and molds are built by people already on Aptera's payroll, no need to count them twice. As stated above, Aptera couldn't afford the equipment needed or craftsmen on the payroll to make their own production molds. The support for them being contracted out is the "leaked" rendered CAD model seen elsewhere on the forum

Batteries and motors need to be purchased from third-party suppliers ... but, even in low volume, they shouldn't be spending more than 25k/vehicle on subcontracted parts, otherwise there's no hope for them to ever be profitable. Lets hope those purchased items are lot less than $25k/vehicle otherwise the retail base price will head further north of $30K...

First of all, if they have 100 employees already, that must include a sizable number of assembly line workers. I doubt they are up to 100 on the payroll currently, otherwise my estimate of $750K/month burn rate was too low. Without any production tooling or an assembly line there may be R&D technicians but no production assembly personnel on board yet.

Also, if they are going to start building 10 units/day without any sales for a year, they'll soon have Apteras stacked to the ceiling in that warehouse. Sales of 10/day would bring 5..10 mil/month in additional funding. I don't understand, why would they start building without sales for a year? What I'm suggesting in the scenario above is to launch production they would need to hire 100 assembly folks to be capable of producing 10 units per day on a manual assembly line. Yes, this would facilitate generating serious revenue, but that is my point, they don't have the financial resources to pull-it-off even at this small scale.

And did you see their production plan figures from the recent KGTV video? The 75 mil. loan was supposed to let them hire 3,000 workers and ramp up production to 100,000/year... I'm sure that's possible and very ambitious, but I have my doubts about it being probable in the very near term, say 1-4 years. A realistic goal is 10-20k units per year, 2-4 times what Lexus sells in the US every year.

:happy0025:

[Dolphyn]

I doubt they are up to 100 on the payroll currently, otherwise my estimate of $750K/month burn rate was too low. Without any production tooling or an assembly line there may be R&D technicians but no production assembly personnel on board yet.They had about 100 employees in April and were looking to hire more at that time, according to this article (http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_da12814f-3e56-5ba0-a9fb-7c27c2483f76.html) (same one Karen linked above)

[KarenRei]

Any scale is possible with enough capital. ;)

Look, they're late. They know they're late, and it's a tough economic climate, which limits scaleup potential. But given how things are going, it's fair to say that they already have the final body molds, which means bodies within a couple weeks. I don't know how long full integration and final testing will take, so I can't say how long it'll be before we see the first car out the door. But the people in this company are dedicated to getting hyper-energy-efficient vehicles out the door. That doesn't mean things will go swimmingly at all times. But the resolve is in the right place.

[esmith]

I doubt they are up to 100 on the payroll currently, otherwise my estimate of $750K/month burn rate was too low. Without any production tooling or an assembly line there may be R&D technicians but no production assembly personnel on board yet.

That depends on personnel structure. Rent and utilities would run 100k/month, leaving 6500/month/worker; subtracting benefits and payroll taxes, that allows for the average salary of $70,000/year. Reasonable estimate if their personnel structure is skewed towards low-income manual workers.

I don't understand, why would they start building without sales for a year?

Because of your implication that they need $5 million in cash to hire 100 assembly-line workers...

[kerbe]

Does the name "Tucker" ring a bell?

[jhm614]

That depends on personnel structure. Rent and utilities would run 100k/month, leaving 6500/month/worker; subtracting benefits and payroll taxes, that allows for the average salary of $70,000/year. Reasonable estimate if their personnel structure is skewed towards low-income manual workers.


Your tax and bennie calculation is too low -- in Texas, tax and bennies for my crew runs about 24%. That's for a fairly mixed group of guys -- some expensive ones, a trainee and almost everybody else in the middle.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Any scale is possible with enough capital. ;)

Look, they're late. They know they're late, and it's a tough economic climate, which limits scaleup potential. But given how things are going, it's fair to say that they already have the final body molds, which means bodies within a couple weeks. I don't know how long full integration and final testing will take, so I can't say how long it'll be before we see the first car out the door. But the people in this company are dedicated to getting hyper-energy-efficient vehicles out the door. That doesn't mean things will go swimmingly at all times. But the resolve is in the right place.
Couldn't have been said any better. I agree with this completely. What counts is that they're taking the time to care about feedback and act on it by changing the original vehicle design- something they should be praised for. This makes both the company and the customers happy in the long run.

[randyd]

Folks seem to be posting as though the rumors are true. Are they? Has a reputable news organization investigated and reported on the rumors of layoffs at Atpera? If so, please post links in this thread.

[paddler13]

It is a good indication of how little it takes to get people off on their "expert opinion"of how horrible things are and endless posts assuming a great deal about a company that is still in development phase and, wisely, not giving out any proprietary manufacturing or management information.

If I were Aptera and were seeing the responses that even legitimate information from them gets I wouldn't tell this group anything either. It's like throwing hamburger to piranha.

[aptera1213]

or, and call me crazy for thinking this, aptera could interact more with deposit holders and even this site and keep the rampant speculation to a minimum...

as you said, they read this forum, they know what's going on...

actually getting info from the head office?? wow, wouldn't that help and be a welcome change...after all, remember this was a car coming in 10/08, then 01/09, then 10/09, and now end of year or maybe next summer...we haven't been told. we have to parse news articles and random freakin' tweets...

hey we all expected slippage...i'm fine with waiting...i want a good product with service available...i WANT aptera to succeed and thrive...that is why i've been a deposit holder since the beginning of 08.

that said, i wonder if there has been any more twitter posts? or any info out of vista?

a few firings is one thing...a wholesale change of plans is another...

and again, all speculation due to a lack of communication...kinda baffling to me...and yet i still wait and hope...so maybe it's my fault...i could give up and get my deposit...i could forget aptera exists and be surprised when i get the infrequent emails...

instead i check on them just about daily.......and so i assume do others...

i wish them well, i hope for the best, i wish they communicated more to the deposit holders and to the forums...but i have no control over that...

[KarenRei]

They know that their communication hasn't been up to par. We'll have to wait and see how they address this problem.

[Jomama]

I agree with the moderator - speculation breeds rumors and this thread, as far as we know, could be filled with rumors.

I wish Aptera would communicate more. I also check the web daily for aptera news. Yes I would like my car (ordered Dec 2007). But I also want a reliable car.

As far as communications, the philosophy seems to mimic Detroit - don't tell anyone anything until the car is ready. People make a living capturing photos of the vehicles with the hope that they were the first to spy the new feature.

We know that the shape of this car is radically different than most. Minor changes to the apearance won't be the reason I cancel my order. I would just like an estimate of when production might start or even a reiteration that production will start in the 4th qtr of 2009. Something, anything from Aptera would suffice.

[NmGfan]

Because of your implication that they need $5 million in cash to hire 100 assembly-line workers...

That's right, they need to hire assembly line workers to start manufacturing, and I postulated that 100 people could generate about 10 units per day on a manual assembly line. Of course this means taking customer orders from reservation holders and actually launching vehicle production. The point was that with the limited cash left (about half of $24 million) from their publicized funding in '08 they would burn through a majority of it just on labor costs alone and would be hard pressed to put together an assembly line and purchase inventory to start production with such limited financial resources. I also suggested that if the company took $10K down payments when 2K reservation holders placed their orders, that would generate $20 million, greatly solving the money problem because it is the best source of unburdened cash around.

I'm just suggesting there are ways to make a production launch happen financially without waiting for uncle sugar if Aptera really was willing and able to. I suspect that the company is willing and motivated, but not able to pull this off financially, hence a quiet slide in production launch time, possible staff reductions if the rumor mill is true, and a real need for millions of $$ to move forward to the next step.

Any scale is possible with enough capital.

:happy0025:

[aptera1213]

They know that their communication hasn't been up to par. We'll have to wait and see how they address this problem.


thanks karen....

i hate sounding like a broken record, so i have put myself on a moratorium on posting "aptera needs to communicate" posts ;)

[Matthijs]

Yes I would like my car (ordered Dec 2007). But I also want a reliable car.

Would you like to share your reservation number?

[cjcanet]

Instead of assuming the worst, I figure Aptera is communication with maybe the first 5 people on the list, getting a list of options they want in their vehicle. Maybe they are swarn to secrecy so they aren't inundated with calls about "when do I get mine". As someone who has been on board since Oct 07, I would say don't believe everything you read, especial on the internet. The big 3 would love for the Aptera to never get off the drawing board, then they wouldn't have to do anything different than they are doing right now. Who knows were that nasty rumour started, could have been a disguntled employee.

[mmalc]

i hate sounding like a broken record, so i have put myself on a moratorium on posting "aptera needs to communicate" posts ;)
Thank you. I can only hope that others will follow suit.

[danieloneil01]

Instead of assuming the worst, I figure Aptera is communication with maybe the first 5 people on the list, getting a list of options they want in their vehicle. Maybe they are swarn to secrecy so they aren't inundated with calls about "when do I get mine". As someone who has been on board since Oct 07, I would say don't believe everything you read, especial on the internet. The big 3 would love for the Aptera to never get off the drawing board, then they wouldn't have to do anything different than they are doing right now. Who knows were that nasty rumour started, could have been a disguntled employee.


And I'd say that's the dumbest thing they could do. I'd hope they're smarter than that.

[evmavin]

And I'd say that's the dumbest thing they could do. I'd hope they're smarter than that.


Without a doubt.

[mmalc]

Instead of assuming the worst, I figure Aptera is communication with maybe the first 5 people on the list, getting a list of options they want in their vehicle. Maybe they are swarn to secrecy so they aren't inundated with calls about "when do I get mine".
Interesting and reasonable suggestion, and just as likely as the FUD and Chicken Little rumours that others are spreading.

The suggestion that this is the "dumbest thing" they could do is asinine. There are many other things they could do that would be fundamentally stupid. This is not one of them. I'm certainly aware of one extremely successful company that discloses products only in secret and only to a very select number of customers prior to release...

[esmith]

Interesting and reasonable suggestion, and just as likely as the FUD and Chicken Little rumours that others are spreading.

The suggestion that this is the "dumbest thing" they could do is asinine. There are many other things they could do that would be fundamentally stupid. This is not one of them. I'm certainly aware of one extremely successful company that discloses products only in secret and only to a very select number of customers prior to release...

There's no good reason for them to swear the first 5 people to secrecy. There's a good reason for them to collect preliminary lists of options from all reservation holders (they will need that data to plan ahead their production) before they make any deliveries.

[mmalc]

There's no good reason for them to swear the first 5 people to secrecy. There's a good reason for them to collect preliminary lists of options from all reservation holders (they will need that data to plan ahead their production) before they make any deliveries.
Of course there's a good reason; there are many good reasons.
You've clearly never worked at a company that wants to keep secrets...

[esmith]

Of course there's a good reason; there are many good reasons.
You've clearly never worked at a company that wants to keep secrets...

Secrets must be kept for a reason, too.

Anyways it's a moot point, now that we have confirmation that "The company had hoped to deliver its first vehicles by year’s end and to be at full production by mid-2010, but those dates may be pushed back". Clearly, if they are still uncertain about making any deliveries before the end of December, they are not talking to anyone in secret.

[aptera1213]

secrets and newsletters are very different things...you CAN keep the first while still suppling the second...

but i take heart in the fact that karen has stated that aptera knows they have dropped the ball...next i hope they act on that knowledge...

[evmavin]

secrets and newsletters are very different things...you CAN keep the first while still suppling the second...

but i take heart in the fact that karen has stated that aptera knows they have dropped the ball...next i hope they act on that knowledge...


Too bad they did not notice last year when the same thing happened. I'm glad someone outside of Aptera has validated that Aptera has noticed, it's like playing telephone when you were a kid:) Now I validate that you have noticed that Karen has validated it. I'll wait until Aptera gets on the line.

[mmalc]

Secrets must be kept for a reason, too.

Anyways it's a moot point, now that we have confirmation that "The company had hoped to deliver its first vehicles by year’s end and to be at full production by mid-2010, but those dates may be pushed back". Clearly, if they are still uncertain about making any deliveries before the end of December, they are not talking to anyone in secret.

Yet more illogical gibberish. None of the conclusions you draw here can be deduced from the preceding.


There are good reasons why any company might want to keep secrets, and why a company might want to talk to others in secret.

The fundamental point, though, is that cjcanet's suggestion is just as likely as the earlier FUD-based suggestion.

[esmith]

There are good reasons why any company might want to keep secrets, and why a company might want to talk to others in secret.

I can't think of any good reason why the company might want to talk to some deposit holders in secret from other deposit holders. Do enlighten me.

The fundamental point, though, is that cjcanet's suggestion is just as likely as the earlier FUD-based suggestion.

Would you be willing to bet a 6-pack on that? Or a pizza?

[mmalc]

I can't think of any good reason why the company might want to talk to some deposit holders in secret from other deposit holders. Do enlighten me.
You seriously can't think of any reason?

To be able to generate a good publicity splash on launch.


Would you be willing to bet a 6-pack on that? Or a pizza?
You really don't understand this, do you?

There isn't anything to bet on here. The issue is probabilities. Simply because one might turn out to be correct, doesn't affect their relative likelihoods.

[esmith]

You really don't understand this, do you?

There isn't anything to bet on here. The issue is probabilities. Simply because one might turn out to be correct, doesn't affect their relative likelihoods.

Right. One option is that the company is going to suspend operations till it gets DOE money sometime next year. The other is that the company is secretly negotiating with the first five deposit holders. In your eyes, those outcomes are equally probable. In my eyes, the first option is possible, the second option is ridiculously illogical and therefore improbable.

Would you bet 2:1? If cjcanet is correct, you get two pizzas, if the original FUD version is correct, I get one.

[mmalc]

Would you bet 2:1? If cjcanet is correct, you get two pizzas, if the original FUD version is correct, I get one.
Are you really this stupid?

Let's try a simple example.
Suppose we bet on tossing a coin. You bet it'll come up heads, I bet it'll come up tails. You're asserting that if it you win it'll prove that there was a higher probability that it would come up heads. It doesn't. It was, and always will be, 50:50.

[esmith]

Let's try a simple example.
Suppose we bet on tossing a coin. You bet it'll come up heads, I bet it'll come up tails. You're asserting that if it you win it'll prove that there was a higher probability that it would come up heads. It doesn't. It was, and always will be, 50:50.

You are claiming that odds are 50:50, but you're refusing to bet even though I'm giving you better than even odds. It implies that you may be a hypocrite but you're unwilling to admit it.

3:1, my final offer.

[mmalc]

You are claiming that odds are 50:50, but you're refusing to bet even though I'm giving you better than even odds. It implies that you may be a hypocrite but you're unwilling to admit it.
3:1, my final offer.
You clearly are that stupid.

You're also shifting the goalposts. The issue is, from the very first post:
Paul Wilbur has just sacrificed the company to line his own pockets.

[DonC]

I'm surprised that so many people seem surprised. Unless you wanted to delude yourself, it has been obvious for quite some time that Aptera didn't have the funding to produce and bring the 2e to market. It was also obvious that they couldn't raise the money from the private sector -- no one would loan it to them -- so they needed government money. It looks like they'll get it so everyone should be yelling "bravo".

I don't think $75M will be enough to finish the car. It may be that they think they can raise another $75M if they get the government loan. In any event, all the DOE loans doubtless have some funding benchmarks that assure the government that the borrower has a chance of getting the product to market, so my guess is that Aptera thinks it has a chance of raising the money.

Personally I don't think that shutting the company down would be a good idea if it was possible to avoid. Some people involved with final production may not be needed, but you need the design and engineering staff for testing and production. In any event, given the current state of the economy, Aptera might be able to let some people go and then rehire better people for lower wages later on.

On the production front, GM had the first final prototype vehicle rolled out at the end of June. Using a pre-production facility, which is more of a production facility than Aptera has, they built another 79 over the next few months at a rate of something like a car a day. I don't see Aptera being superior to GM in production skills, so expect production to start about a year and a half after the first final prototype comes off the line. If they don't do that then the 2e will be unreliable and a royal PITA to own. As put nicely by autobloggreen, having your customers beta test cars as you develop them is not going to work. In their words:

"This is the sort of issue that is normally found and fixed in the hundreds of thousands of miles of durability testing done before a car is put on sale. All of this applies to every new vehicle regardless of powertrain. Is this public beta testing really what you want automakers to do? Or would you rather be patient and have the car come to market right? I think most people would opt for the latter."

http://green.autoblog.com/page/9/

On the management front. it's not unusual for start-ups to have financial problems which cause them to lay people off, and when this happens it's not unusual for the employees to think the CEO is a greedy jerk who can't manage their way out of a paper bag. Sometimes they're right of course, but frequently they're wrong.

[esmith]

"This is the sort of issue that is normally found and fixed in the hundreds of thousands of miles of durability testing done before a car is put on sale. All of this applies to every new vehicle regardless of powertrain. Is this public beta testing really what you want automakers to do? Or would you rather be patient and have the car come to market right? I think most people would opt for the latter."

This is a good point. A fair bit of pre-production testing is mandatory. But Aptera is significantly poorer than GM and they simply don't have the wherewithal to test the crap out of 80 prototype versions for a year (maybe with 75M from the government they will, but that would delay the launch till Q3 2011 and I don't see this as a probable outcome yet). They will do as much internal testing as they can afford, maybe 20 units for three to six months tested by company employees, in addition to all testing pre-production designs (pp6) received to date, and then run an "open beta", polishing the product using low number depositors as beta-testers.

For now, we should be on the lookout for spottings of the new design in the wild. Once that happens, we'll know that it's three to six months till the first delivery.

It would make sense for them to do a variation of what Mini did, and turn initial orders into short-term leases.

[Matthijs]

mmm,

one...i would likely not give much more over the forum as what was said would be easy enough already to trace back to the source...the quotes are very specific in tone and style...

if you feel comfortable talking more to karen, i would do it through private messages for now...


two...this could be a lot of things (and nothing too)...

a) it could be a couple of people let go and one of them or a friend of theirs is upset...

b)it could be more massive "work force time off" if Aptera is waiting for the government funds and wants to temporarily decrease staff till more money rolls in. keeping the company lean and running till the money flows in in a few months...

c) it could be worse...but that seems unlikely

it could be nothing...that is more likely, but if your source is good, then i would go with a or b long before i believe c
I have got some news and so far I can tell it's option A. Fortunately this person is relocated and has another position at a American auto company. I was told he/she could not speak for Steve Fambro. I do not know if that means his position is in question at the company.

What I read on the Aptera Linkedin site: Company Size 50 employees http://www.linkedin.com/companies/aptera-motors

[evmavin]

I'm surprised that so many people seem surprised. Unless you wanted to delude yourself, it has been obvious for quite some time that Aptera didn't have the funding to produce and bring the 2e to market. It was also obvious that they couldn't raise the money from the private sector -- no one would loan it to them -- so they needed government money. It looks like they'll get it so everyone should be yelling "bravo".

I don't think $75M will be enough to finish the car. It may be that they think they can raise another $75M if they get the government loan. In any event, all the DOE loans doubtless have some funding benchmarks that assure the government that the borrower has a chance of getting the product to market, so my guess is that Aptera thinks it has a chance of raising the money.

Personally I don't think that shutting the company down would be a good idea if it was possible to avoid. Some people involved with final production may not be needed, but you need the design and engineering staff for testing and production. In any event, given the current state of the economy, Aptera might be able to let some people go and then rehire better people for lower wages later on.

On the production front, GM had the first final prototype vehicle rolled out at the end of June. Using a pre-production facility, which is more of a production facility than Aptera has, they built another 79 over the next few months at a rate of something like a car a day. I don't see Aptera being superior to GM in production skills, so expect production to start about a year and a half after the first final prototype comes off the line. If they don't do that then the 2e will be unreliable and a royal PITA to own. As put nicely by autobloggreen, having your customers beta test cars as you develop them is not going to work. In their words:

"This is the sort of issue that is normally found and fixed in the hundreds of thousands of miles of durability testing done before a car is put on sale. All of this applies to every new vehicle regardless of powertrain. Is this public beta testing really what you want automakers to do? Or would you rather be patient and have the car come to market right? I think most people would opt for the latter."

http://green.autoblog.com/page/9/

On the management front. it's not unusual for start-ups to have financial problems which cause them to lay people off, and when this happens it's not unusual for the employees to think the CEO is a greedy jerk who can't manage their way out of a paper bag. Sometimes they're right of course, but frequently they're wrong.




I agree to proper launch a product like this takes big bucks which may be why they are seeking a partner as they don't have the cash to do it themselves, and if they do sell at BB expect that will increase the cost of the vehicle as BB is not a non profit venture. Another point you raise is testing, a very long time ago I pushed the point that any vehicle needs to be fully tested before sale in its PRODUCTION form for durability, reliability and other unknown issues. Aptera does not have the type of high-tech testing labs (simulated driving in rain, over bumps, etc) the large auto makers have and they have been doing this for years and still have issues after production. This is why Aptera is smart to use proven and tested parts but that is also costly in the EV space for their economies of scale unless they buy mass quantities, hence more money is needed. This has been mentioned by some APtera execs before related to cost of the vehicle. The one thing about their silence that concerns me is that when a company is sure they will deliver a product and passionate about it they will communicate well with customers even on delays, spinning that to be something positive and timely which is key to retaining integrity. Other times they may go silent if they have good business ethics but are reluctant to say anything as they may not be sure they can even deliver at a certain point and do not want to mislead potential customers in good faith, in this case it is difficult to communicate in good faith as it requires disclosure of the problems. I hope in this case it is not the latter and the communication issue are result of bad marketing instead, although still disappointing never the less. I assume Aptera employees signs NDA agreements otherwise there would be much more info and rumors circulating as to what may be happening and any politics involved, regardless they face many challenges as a start up but even more as a result of the product they are building.

[randyd]

...this could be a lot of things (and nothing too)...

a) it could be a couple of people let go and one of them or a friend of theirs is upset...

I have got some news and so far I can tell it's option A.

Thanks for the update Matthijs!

Most startups hire very aggressively and often hire a 1 or 2 employees to do jobs they are simply not able to do. In a cash-limited startup, there is just no way to justify keeping them in their ill-fitting jobs. Because of the passion in the startup company culture, any layoff causes overreactions. I have seen this happen at every startup where I have worked, and at a few where friends have worked.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Here's what I hope the good folks at Aptera do: they should build the production model as they can -- by hand if necessary, and then enlist the first willing deposit holders to start driving them. Nothing beats real world use for working out the kinks!

We all gotta' make the best of what we have.

[aptera1213]

that is very much what MM is doing with their new 2 seater EV...they are enlisting 10 first buyers to be testers...they want people who are also blog friendly...so they can get immediate and constant feedback

perhaps aptera could do the same...heck they could do 10 cars with windows that don't roll down and 10 with windows that do roll down and get some good feedback on that too...

i would be happy to volunteer to be a test driver :)

i like to blog

[KarenRei]

Gotta get those shells out of the new molds first ;)

[aptera1213]

no need to wait...i would be quite happy with the old molds...
;)

[NmGfan]

...that is very much what MM is doing with their new 2 seater EV...they are enlisting 10 first buyers to be testers...they want people who are also blog friendly...so they can get immediate and constant feedback

Those 10 Beta units will be in the hands of testers in Feb/Mar 2010 time frame.

Could it possible that Myers Motors molds are ready before Aptera's?:scared0011:

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Those 10 Beta units will be in the hands of testers in Feb/Mar 2010 time frame.

Could it possible that Myers Motors molds are ready before Aptera's?:scared0011:

:happy0025:

I would be surprised if they are constructed the same.

[BryanSR]

It's all about cupholders. They hired a professional cupholder engineering firm to maximize cupholder count and size with a minimal cupholder footprint. It's all okay, though; they can raise more money by selling off the patent rights on their "carbon-fiber cupholder-stacking center console" system. :cool:

Too FUNNY & SAD TOO!!!!!!!!

[Jomama]

Would you like to share your reservation number?
I'm beginning to feel a little like Eeyore on Winney the Pooh.
I'm not sure how much longer I can hold out for the Aptera. My wife needs car and she was going to get my Prius when the Aptera rolled in.

e-172

[Matthijs]

I'm beginning to feel a little like Eeyore on Winney the Pooh.
I'm not sure how much longer I can hold out for the Aptera. My wife needs car and she was going to get my Prius when the Aptera rolled in.

e-172

Thanks for sharing! Maybe Gary can put it in the reservation graph. If you need a car before the Aptera can be delivered and you think about canceling your reservation please read this post: http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=3481

[cjcanet]

My wife needs car and she was going to get my Prius when the Aptera rolled in.



I'm the same, I'm driving a 20 year old car waiting for an Aptera. Our big joke is, the car is falling apart around the engine. Hope it holds out.

[Matthijs]

They've just taken the 1st guy into the office. Mood is certainly somber.

Maybe this means the reorganization is starting today?

[G-Jet]

Matthijs,

Where did you get that quote?? Is it from a twitter or something?

"reorganization"? right.

G

[Matthijs]

Matthijs,

Where did you get that quote?? Is it from a twitter or something?

"reorganization"? right.

G

It's from the same source as the other twitter messages I got. But this thread has gone to other topics so it's a bit harder to find.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Matt,



Quote:
They've just taken the 1st guy into the office. Mood is certainly somber.

Maybe this means the reorganization is starting today?

So, you are saying that this is happening at Aptera?

[Matthijs]

Hi Matt,



So, you are saying that this is happening at Aptera?

No the person who send me all those massages told me this 3 hours ago. No further news yet.

[wcabdefense]

No doubt he/she was #2 and was eaten. That is the best way to keep secrets SECRET.

[Matthijs]

It looks like they just let Tim Dine go. Wow.
Tim Dine (http://www.linkedin.com/in/timdine) is Senior Fabrication Engineer and Fabrication Supervisor at Aptera Motors.

[wcabdefense]

Wow. That sucks when 2,000 people know you were fired before your wife does. :confused:

[Matthijs]

Wow. That sucks when 2,000 people know you were fired before your wife does. :confused:
But Kiva still makes beautiful metal art. And has a daytime job. Besides this news is more then 2 hours old. Chances are pretty big she already knew it before this was posted.

http://simplemodernmetal.wordpress.com/who-we-are/

[eestorfan]

Tim Dine (http://www.linkedin.com/in/timdine) is Senior Fabrication Engineer and Fabrication Supervisor at Aptera Motors.
These are just layoffs, right? Then in 6 mos., when they get their DOE money, they will continue into production?

[mchicab]

Burt Rutan


Then they can't be an effective designer. It takes too much time to run a company -- especially the larger it gets.

[KarenRei]

Burt Rutan

How much of the actual design work do you think he does these days? Certainly when he started out making kit planes, he did both running the company and the development. But I seriously doubt he does much engineering or physical production work these days.

[Matthijs]

These are just layoffs, right? Then in 6 mos., when they get their DOE money, they will continue into production?

I surely hope so. But I think this will effect the time line of the rollout. And a Senior Fabrication Engineer and Fabrication Supervisor needs to be replaced.

[jsmith1012]

Latest-

Steve Fambro and Chris Anthony let go from Aptera.

This is absurd. Paul W. is out for blood, and a coward. 30% were also laid off equaling 20 something employees left, from 75 about 8 months ago. Didn't they have 29 Million in the bank when Paul W. started?

[DanD]

Is this true or just a nasty rumor?

[Sapphire Dragon]

For some reason, I just don't believe that. I'm starting to question the validity of this... Steve Fambro was the original designer of the Aptera. He started the whole company. I don't see how they could let him go so easily. Even if they were letting him go temporarily and hiring him back later, this just doesn't seem viable. It's almost like saying Bill Gates was fired from Windows... it doesn't make sense. If it makes sense to someone else, can you explain for me?

Edit: And these are his first 3 posts... I don't buy it

[Sapphire Dragon]

Is this true or just a nasty rumor?
I say it's a rumor. To me, this is as crazy as saying Bill Gates got fired from Windows. It doesn't make sense to fire the original creator. I might go further as to say that this is probably a troll.

[DanD]

I sincerely hope this is nothing but a nasty rumor, along with the scale of the reported layoffs. However, I've experienced a few sociopathic CEOs in my time, so I wouldn't be too surprised.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12PSYCHO.html

I say it's a rumor. To me, this is as crazy as saying Bill Gates got fired from Windows. It doesn't make sense to fire the original creator. I might go further as to say that this is probably a troll.

[Matthijs]

Chris Anthony got let go. He'll go back to Epic Wake Boats.

No word on Steve yet. But if DanD and jsmith1012 are right it would be very sad. Chris is now CEO of Epic and Fluxpwr, that is a lot of work on it's own.

[jhm614]

No word on Steve yet. But if DanD and jsmith1012 are right it would be very sad. Chris is now CEO of Epic and Fluxpwr, that is a lot of work on it's own.

Wow! Is this true? I can't find any other mention of this anywhere...

[Matthijs]

Yep, They let go Steve, Anthony and Trisha Fambro. Please make sure everyone knows. & keep an eye on Steve. He'll be back.
This is a sad day! I hope the Aptera will be made the way Steve envisioned it. Why is this happening! This makes me very sad.

[pk-sd]

Please say its not true. We might be looking at the beginning of the end(of Aptera). Trying to find official confirmation before I get by deposit back.

[DanD]

I'll not be buying an Aptera if this is true. My conscience can't take being part of the care and feeding of a sociopathic CEO.

I am very interested in seeing what Mr. Fambro has planned next. I'm sure his severance package has some rather draconian restrictions on what he's allowed to say about Aptera. I hope they haven't shackled him in other ways.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Wow... this is astounding. It's pretty surreal to me. Something in me says this is impossible and that it's not true, but alas... I don't know what to think right now. All I can hope for is that this is just temporary.

[mikekinney]

(Once again) I am glad that I haven't locked in!

[aptera1213]

i doubt this is true....unless we get mathias' source to confirm i will continue to see this as a first time poster pulling our leg...it happens from time to time on the internets ;)

at the same time, look at tesla...the founder is often booted after a while...

i do think the timing is suspect...wouldn't they wait till after they get the government money? if they boot these top people now, would the government see that as an unstable company to loan money too?



EDIT: gah, somehow i missed mathis' confirmation....WOW...WOW...

mmmm, now what?? guess i will have to see steve's reaction before i take any action on my refundable deposit

[Matthijs]

i doubt this is true....unless we get mathias' source to confirm i will continue to see this as a first time poster pulling our leg...it happens from time to time on the internets ;)

at the same time, look at tesla...the founder is often booted after a while...

i do think the timing is suspect...wouldn't they wait till after they get the government money? if they boot these top people now, would the government see that as an unstable company to loan money too?

The rumor is confirmed by my source, so now 2 sources say the same thing. :(

[aptera1213]

thanks matthijs....and sorry i mistyped your name in my posts :)

i don't know what to think about this...to me it is very sad and unsettling...

i still want an aptera, but this makes it just weird...perhaps steve can still sell me a version 4 or 6

:) :(

[drivin98]

In the case of Tesla, it was a matter of Elon gaining control of the board over time. I don't think Wilbur could do this on his own since he doesn't control the board, but perhaps he could at the behest of a cabal (for want of a better word) of the membership. Anyone know the Aptera board make-up?

[Matthijs]

Board of Directors


Bob Kavner, Chairman
Former chairman CitySearch, Ironport, Overture and Earthlink, in addition to being the former CEO of AT&Ts Multimedia Products & CFO- AT&T corporate
Bill Gross, Board Member - Idealab founder
Doug McPherson, Board Member - Idealab General Counsel
Michael Johnson, Board Member - Esenjay Petroleum, Owner Board of Advisors


Don Beall - ex Chairman, Rockwell
Steve McGowan, ex CFO, Sun Microsystems
Skip Armstrong - ex Navy Admiral & Naval Aviator
Bill Warner - ex VP-Sales, Silicon Graphics and other startups

[Matthijs]

It seems Chris Anthony was among us. I did send a PM but I did not get any response unfortunately. :(

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/7622/epicf.jpg

[Matthijs]

thanks matthijs....and sorry i mistyped your name in my posts :)

i don't know what to think about this...to me it is very sad and unsettling...

i still want an aptera, but this makes it just weird...perhaps steve can still sell me a version 4 or 6

:) :(

I feel the same way. I am just sad and hope everyone involved will be ok. And the Aptera will happen, most people do not realize I think that the Aptera is really really groundbreaking.

[magnru]

Latest-

Steve Fambro and Chris Anthony let go from Aptera.

This is absurd. Paul W. is out for blood, and a coward. 30% were also laid off equaling 20 something employees left, from 75 about 8 months ago. Didn't they have 29 Million in the bank when Paul W. started?
Is this correct? Wasn't the original post by a newbie?- look at the timing. Is it a conspiracy against Aptera? If it is true then why? Is Aptera out of funds? Is big oil involved? Did someone sell out? Were indiscretions involved? Will we get our deposits back? Will someone else take over? I can't offer an answer but would like to think that Aptera is running out of money and in order to keep their manufacturing facilities open until Federal Money is approved they had to make draconian cuts. Until more is known I will have to hold my reservation and breath while waiting for an outcome. magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'

[Matthijs]

Is this correct? Wasn't the original post by a newbie?- look at the timing. Is it a conspiracy against Aptera? If it is true then why? Is Aptera out of funds? Is big oil involved? Did someone sell out? Were indiscretions involved? Will we get our deposits back? Will someone else take over? I can't offer an answer but would like to think that Aptera is running out of money and in order to keep their manufacturing facilities open until Federal Money is approved they had to make draconian cuts. Until more is known I will have to hold my reservation and breath while waiting for an outcome. magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'

If you read this post: http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=39715&postcount=102

I can only tell you that the post you quoted was posted before my source gave me the news and conformation. So now 2 sources are saying it. I have absolutely no answers to all those questions. I just hope Aptera will come forward with news. If as a company you let go to founders I think people would like to know it. :)

[pk-sd]

I think there are bigger problems at Aptera then money. If they need money, have they forgotten simple concept called “start selling”. If the product is ready, you don’t need start out big. All they have to do is start building 1-2 cars per day and start selling them. I am really sad for Aptera the car, not Aptera the company. I think they have botched up this project.

I am also sad that Steve and Chris’s autographs I have might not be worth much now.

[Sapphire Dragon]

I am also sad that Steve and Chris’s autographs I have might not be worth much now.
I think they will still be worth a lot regardless of how this turns out. They were the two original founders of Aptera. You can't get better than the originals.

[danieloneil01]

I think they will still be worth a lot regardless of how this turns out. They were the two original founders of Aptera. You can't get better than the originals.


Well, they're not exactly moving forward.

[mikekinney]

I'm more interested in the car than the people behind it. The current staff has missed self-imposed deadline after deadline. Perhaps this is for the best. The aptera concept is awesome, what they need to do now is have the right people to implement it.

[KarenRei]

For those here who still don't believe that this is happening, I can confirm it is. Including Steve and Trisha Fambro and Chris Anthony.

[rmunson1]

Since it is possible to confirm the layoffs at the top of the company, isn't it possible to extract what next? Are they replacing them? Are they going out of business (kind of hard to 'go out' when you have never 'been in')? Focusing on...
1-fixing design problems
2-fixing issues preventing production
3-fixing funding
4-awaiting federal funding
5-hiring new staff
6-eliminating more staff
7-...?

[jhm614]

For those here who still don't believe that this is happening, I can confirm it is. Including Steve and Trisha Fambro and Chris Anthony.

Well, hell. I was hoping this was all just Internet B.S. -- Does anybody have the reasoning behind this? Is it VC driven or a PW power play or what?

[esmith]

I've seen these kinds of things before. The company may eventually recover, but the damage to morale of remaining employees is devastating.

Is it VC driven or a PW power play or what?

Generally speaking, VCs don't proactively fire founders of their companies, absent some remarkable degree of ineptitude on the founder's side that threatens the company's survival. But the board is more likely to take the side of a capitalist shark (PW) over a "green" inventor (SF) in any internal dispute.

Secondly, this could have something to do with potential sell-out/takeover. Either there's an offer and SF & CA wouldn't sign off for idealistic reasons, or PW & VCs are interested in trying to arrange one (thus the talk about sacrificing the company).

I have no first-hand information myself, this is all pure speculation.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Well, they're not exactly moving forward.
Well, hopefully by the time this all clears up and we get some concrete idea of what exactly caused all this, they will be. That's all I can hope for right now.

[pk-sd]

Well, hopefully by the time this all clears up and we get some concrete idea of what exactly caused all this, they will be. That's all I can hope for right now.

I think they will clear it up in next newsletter .:(

[KarenRei]

I think they will clear it up in next newsletter .:(

Their next newsletter, eh? Yeah, that's coming up *really* soon. Here's an advanced link to it:

http://www.aptera.com/newsletter040112/

;)
*Hint: Newsletter URLs are in the format Month Day Year*

[paddler13]

Edited out comment. For some odd reason I missed a whole page of posts. This is a shame and sad news indeed. As Karen is a Goddess of the Highest Order, I believe her confirmation. Before that I wasn't completely convinced.:mad: :mad:

[KarenRei]

Yeah, where's the source for that?

It's a joke. Highlight the text between the two asterisks.

Just trying to lighten the mood a bit. ;) Not doing a very good job at it, I'm sure...

[paddler13]

Ah, I just edited my post but I was referring to your confirmation of the information not the link to the non-newsletter.

Still bummer news.

[JustWilliam]

This is just about the WORST news I can imagine.

The truth is that the men who ARE Aptera are no longer with the "company".

This stinks of the Venture Vehicles (Sorry, "Persu Mobility"). News and signs of progress trickle to a stop. Money Men, (who are supposed to make concepts into reality,) gut the staff and oust the founder(s). This is sometimes followed by "re-branding" or "re-focusing" of the product. But it is difficult (if not impossible) to sell or finance a "company" based on the radically new designs of people you have terminated.

Ferrari and Porsche would not even EXIST without the passion of their founders, let alone command the respect of those who love serious sports cars and radical best of class engineering.

The PASSION has left the building. I thrive on optimism, but anyone who follows "start-up" automakers must have a seen this scenario MANY times before. I personally feel sad more than anything.

Myers Motor's at this point are doing (and HAVE been doing) what many of wish Aptera had done. Actually PRODUCING vehicles in very small numbers to dedicated buyers. Learning and improving as they build each and every one. And now that they have a production ready design for their new model, they are now REQUESTING early adopters to beta-test. The "testers" are recommended to be savvy in blogging and promotion. They are honest enough to have announced pricing based not on a spread of options and untested alternative propulsion systems, but on the number of vehicles they can produce and sell.

If I was looking for an ultra-efficient, reasonably priced, pure electric vehicle
ASAP, I know where my cash would be.

[NeilBlanchard]

This is worse than getting laid off from work.

A truly sad day. And I'm even wondering about suppression efforts by the powers that be...

[Matthijs]

Edited out comment. For some odd reason I missed a whole page of posts. This is a shame and sad news indeed. As Karen is a Goddess of the Highest Order, I believe her confirmation. Before that I wasn't completely convinced.:mad: :mad:
Thanks for thinking I only Write BS crap into this forum for the fun of it. ;)

[jsnable]

Well, this should elicit some sort of response from Aptera:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/15/rumormill-aptera-co-founders-booted-staff-slashed/

This is a depressing development for sure! It reminds me a lot of what happened with Tesla...

Jay

[turbo wing]

Paul Wilbur needs to be fired ASAP he ruined Steve Saleen and another Detroit company the same way, get rid of him before its to late.

[magnru]

Ousted Aptera leaders have created an exceptional vehicle but lacked the expertise to bring it to market in a timely manner. Slow decision making and lack of communication are factors. Maybe the Board of Directors and Board of Advisers became fed up with the snails pace and false deadlines voting for the shakeup. Of course this will slow things down even more until funds are made available (namely Gov. loan)in which case the powers that be must be extremely confident. Maybe slowing down is what is needed right now. Of course they could have just started making and selling vehicles with the improve as you build mentality letting the original buyers trade up to the eventual final version with no additional expense to the buyer. I also hope Aptera responds to the article in Autoblog Green posted above by Jay. If they don't explain themselves soon I will loose any shred of confidence that I have left in Aptera. magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'

[Cwn.Annwn]

Ousted Aptera leaders have created an exceptional vehicle but lacked the expertise to bring it to market in a timely manner.

what deadlines had aptera missed under "ousted aptera leaders"? was it the "ousted aptera leaders" who burned through all the cash and instituted major redesigns of the car? how has fundraising been going under the new aptera leaders? because it went great under "ousted aptera leaders".

Of course they could have just started making and selling vehicles with the improve as you build mentality letting the original buyers trade up to the eventual final version with no additional expense to the buyer.

and you think the ousted aptera leaders are the ones who oppposed getting the car out the door sooner?

[KarenRei]

Thanks for thinking I only Write BS crap into this forum for the fun of it. ;)

Hey now ;) It was just another source confirming things. The fewer the sources, the less reliable information is; the more the sources, the more reliable it is. Plus, this is pretty tough news to accept. But it absolutely is happening.

Right now, people are mostly just confused. The anger will come later as the full story becomes public, which it absolutely will in time. People might want to start thinking now about how they'll react when that happens so that their energies are directed in a proper direction. I'd recommend avoiding hasty action that might compromise any leverage you have until that point.

[evmavin]

Hey now ;) It was just another source confirming things. The fewer the sources, the less reliable information is; the more the sources, the more reliable it is. Plus, this is pretty tough news to accept. But it absolutely is happening.

Right now, people are mostly just confused. The anger will come later as the full story becomes public, which it absolutely will in time. People might want to start thinking now about how they'll react when that happens so that their energies are directed in a proper direction. I'd recommend avoiding hasty action that might compromise any leverage you have until that point.


To know the real story you have to have been one of the top management as many times in situations like this even the employees don't know all the politics in play. Regardless, IF they stay in business and build cars it still looks like 2011 for 2e vehicles at the soonest.

[KarenRei]

To know the real story you have to have been one of the top management as many times in situations like this even the employees don't know all the politics in play.

No comment.

[Matthijs]

I see that some people who visit this thread can tell us more on the situation, I hope they will.

[aptera1213]

Basicaly I hear, "don't cancel your deposit yet as you want to be an angry deposit holder vs an angry nobody."

[jstdadd]

I postulate that a VC provider wanted to rid the payroll of people who aren't "doing anything to move us forward to manufacturing." When Jobs and Woz moved away from Apple, Apple didn't die. When Jobs eventually came back, the company roared.

VC is generally brought through an agent; the agent can get a HUGE amount of the VC. The actual investors can get a really big say in how the company will be run, how "their" money will be spent, and who will be there to see how it is spent. You don't, for instance, continue to 'develop' the 2H and 2G before you get the 2E out the door.

Wait and see.

[virtualeric]

No wonder they've been quiet. They've been hermetically sealing communication in an effort to smother the sound of a raging s**tstorm inside the company.

Even with a critical fracture in that seal, forum members in the know appear to be in gag mode, merely confirming the leak and keeping mum until the company speaks.

My take, apart from Aptera needing to be financially/operationally sound, the vision, innovation and entrepreneurial spirit must remain in the veins of Aptera in one fashion or another or they're destined to go extinct. Perhaps patience has not prevailed.

Speaking of, who's selling and buying reservation slots?

[scottsim]

Speaking of, who's selling and buying reservation slots?


2e #159 for sale...somewhere in the 1K-3K range...PM if interested....

[shotgunslade]

I am still interested in forming a binding agreeement to take over someone's reservation. However, I have just bought a reservation for the Myers NMG2. I really, really want an Aptera, despite the hassle of smuggling it out of California in my suitcase, but, given the success of Myers in turning out product, they seem a safer bet than Aptera. I will hang in to the end to try to get an Aptera should they become available, but will get an NMG2 if I have to.

[turbo wing]

I think I'm going to hold out for the eVaro, it has an onboard generator for longer trips

[Dolphyn]

Speaking of, who's selling and buying reservation slots?
I thought they were non-transferable?!

[lapwing]

I postulate that a VC provider wanted to rid the payroll of people who aren't "doing anything to move us forward to manufacturing." ........... Wait and see.

I have conflicting emotions over this going down.

Bottom line is that there are no vehicles delivered - I do not know who to blame for that.

A part of me believes strongly that production did not deliver - perhaps they needed to be booted!

But wait a minute. Perhaps it is the fault of design/engineering. They did not provide a finished prototype, as a basis for production. I mean I have never actually seen a completed mule, that didn't need windy windows and more cupholders.......... Hmmmmm.

Okay so who is in charge of kicking engineering in the butt and getting a firm an acceptable committment! Ummm...

So many unknowns, matched by those unknowables!
(shades of Rumsfeld:tongue0015: )

Na! I rekon the oil companies Michael Johnson - Esenjay Petroleum ..............
and the ex-motor industries execs like Paul Wilbur are to blame.

It's all a conspiricy:character0006:

[Sapphire Dragon]

and the ex-motor industries execs like Paul Wilbur are to blame.
Oh, don't even get me started about Wilbur...

[Apt3448]

If indeed they fired as many as 30 people and if indeed they had about 100, there still are a bunch of folks there at Aptera (many of them very scared, no doubt). And these are not just twiddling their thumbs until uncle Sam loans them $75 M in 6 months (or not). Soooo what will they be doing? Might I suggest building a few Aptera's? Could be a great way to make some money in this economy.

This is really very frustrating. Hope there will be some kind of communication about their short term plans.

[Sapphire Dragon]

If indeed they fired as many as 30 people and if indeed they had about 100, there still are a bunch of folks there at Aptera (many of them very scared, no doubt). And these are not just twiddling their thumbs until uncle Sam loans them $75 M in 6 months (or not). Soooo what will they be doing? Might I suggest building a few Aptera's? Could be a great way to make some money in this economy.

This is really very frustrating. Hope there will be some kind of communication about their short term plans.
Personally... if I was one of them, I'd be staging something against Wilbur, and finding a way to get Steve back.

[pk-sd]

Here is another source on this news:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/aptera-founders-ousted-in-boardroom-showdown/

[Apt3448]

Personally... if I was one of them, I'd be staging something against Wilbur, and finding a way to get Steve back.

Regardless of the sentiment, that is not how companies work.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Regardless of the sentiment, that is not how companies work.
I know, I know. But at this point, I don't think it would be impossible. /yes,lotsofsentiment

[jsnable]

Darryl Siry article on Autopia:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/aptera-founders-ousted-in-boardroom-showdown/

[Sapphire Dragon]

It isn’t saying much about what happened to Fambro and Anthony, but claims the company’s relationship with them remains positive.
The company insists Fambro was not let go and says he volunteered to take a leave of absence to help the company save money while it waits out the DOE loan process. McCammon said he could not comment further as he was not familiar with the details.
...
Fambro and Anthony increasingly were at odds with Wilbur’s direction. As the new CEO developed a plan to slash costs aggressively and leave a skeleton crew to wait for federal money, the founders developed an alternative plan. It included reversing the new engineering direction and delivering cars to customers ASAP. The plan also may have included returning executive control to the founders. It is unclear what would have become of Wilbur has the board accepted this plan, and at this point it’s moot because the plan was rejected. In a boardroom showdown, the majority of directors backed Wilbur’s plan. Shortly thereafter, Fambro and Antony were let go — their official status with the company remained unclear Sunday — along with an unknown number of other employees This shouts confusion to me. It looks to me like they have sources that are telling two different stories here. One side maintains the positive stance, that Steve and the company are fine and this is just temporary. While I would very much hope that this is the case, this could easily be a ploy by Wilbur and co. to hush the current speculation and pretend that everything's fine. The other source told a more negative side- that Steve had followers and Wilbur had followers, and this resulted in a sort of civil war between the sides... ending in Steve's loss somehow, and his resultant ousting. Along with all of his supporters. I really hope this isn't the case, though this might be the one that sounds the most probable at this point.

Though Aptera managed to raise $24 million just before capital markets imploded last year, the decision to delay production created a much larger capital requirement because it delayed the revenues it would have received shipping cars to more than 3,000 customers. Sources tell Wired.com (http://Wired.com) Wilbur’s team struggled to raise new capital, although to be fair the fundraising environment has been tough this year. Had Aptera frozen the car’s design and started shipping cars late last year, the cash flow could have sustained it longer and perhaps helped it raise new capital.That just pretty much described exactly what Wilbur did wrong. Now we can continue with the raid plans... /Iwish

[Aptera1171]

While it is disappointing to see Aptera lose it's founders, I'm not ready to give up. My deposit stays, but I won't lock-in now and I may never lock-in given this news.

I met these folks (as well as some of you) in Palo Alto some time ago. I can't go so far as to say, "I looked him in the eye and knew I could trust him." But all of the Aptera folks I met in Palo Alto seemed honest and dedicated. I still have that general feeling.

The kit-car idea is interesting, but I don't trust myself with a wrench much less the deadly amount of electrical current I'd be playing with. If the kit-car came with a kit-installer, I'd be more excited.

Finally, if the Aptera design morphs into a semi-Leaf, I'll have to give up on it. We're in this for the radical ideas, not the conventional ones.

Thanks for reading, and I consider you all family.:logo:

[rayfellow]

Finally, if the Aptera design morphs into a semi-Leaf, I'll have to give up on it. We're in this for the radical ideas, not the conventional ones.

Thanks for reading, and I consider you all family.:logo:

Hear hear... and I agree about the family sentiment.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Thanks for reading, and I consider you all family.:logo:
I don't know if that was more towards the company, but the feeling's mutual. In a kind of sense, we're all family here.

[Matthijs]

I don't know if that was more towards the company, but the feeling's mutual. In a kind of sense, we're all family here.

Although far away I feel the same way. :logo:

[Sapphire Dragon]

Although far away I feel the same way. :logo:
Glad to hear it. :)

[DSC OFF]

I'm not expecting any sympathy here, there are many people that need it more than me. However, for the last year and a half I've been telling every single person I know about the Aptera and how great it is, and now I'm starting to look like an idiot. This is depressing.

[KarenRei]

I'm not expecting any sympathy here, there are many people that need it more than me. However, for the last year and a half I've been telling every single person I know about the Aptera and how great it is, and now I'm starting to look like an idiot. This is depressing.

Lots of people in that same boat. All of my coworkers were really looking forward to getting to see my car. So were my family and friends.

[Sapphire Dragon]

I'm not expecting any sympathy here, there are many people that need it more than me. However, for the last year and a half I've been telling every single person I know about the Aptera and how great it is, and now I'm starting to look like an idiot. This is depressing.
Just because the company is going through hard times doesn't change the fact that the Aptera is still revolutionary. Things happen and situations change, but the Aptera is still the Aptera in the end. It's not like Aptera is filing for bankruptcy. As far as it's going, this is just a phase in the company. I don't feel it will fold.

[OC-LA driver]

I'm glad Aptera have cut their burn rate while waiting to see if they can join the ranks of the subsidized...perhaps six months later than their less efficient four-wheeled competition.

It's ridiculous that subsidies like DOE loans effectively decide winners and losers in the US. We like to think the market is free to set prices and allocate capital...but it really isn't. (end of rant)

[aptera1213]

they can cut their burn rate even more by making and selling the pp6...

just set up and ask at myaptera.com..."Your reservation spot is coming up. Congrats! Would you like to purchase the Aptera 2e version 1 seen here (insert photo of the pp6). This version does not have roll down windows. If yes, please click HERE to confirm your car. If you would like to wait for Aptera 2e version 2 with a modified body and roll down windows, click HERE. You will keep your spot in line and should see the 2e version 2 in late 2010 or early 2011. Thanks."

sell a couple of thousand pp6 models, add the roll down window model in 9 months or so and sell both models for a year or more to see which model sells better and to see which model bring more cash to the company.

[lapwing]

they can cut their burn rate even more by making and selling the pp6...

just set up and ask at myaptera.com..."Your reservation spot is coming up. Congrats! Would you like to purchase the Aptera 2e version 1 seen here (insert photo of the pp6). This version does not have roll down windows. If yes, please click HERE to confirm your car. If you would like to wait for Aptera 2e version 2 with a modified body and roll down windows, click HERE. You will keep your spot in line and should see the 2e version 2 in late 2010 or early 2011. Thanks."

sell a couple of thousand pp6 models, add the roll down window model in 9 months or so and sell both models for a year or more to see which model sells better and to see which model bring more cash to the company.

Right on!:jumping0001:

[wolfdoggy]

they can cut their burn rate even more by making and selling the pp6...

just set up and ask at myaptera.com..."Your reservation spot is coming up. Congrats! Would you like to purchase the Aptera 2e version 1 seen here (insert photo of the pp6). This version does not have roll down windows. If yes, please click HERE to confirm your car. If you would like to wait for Aptera 2e version 2 with a modified body and roll down windows, click HERE. You will keep your spot in line and should see the 2e version 2 in late 2010 or early 2011. Thanks."

sell a couple of thousand pp6 models, add the roll down window model in 9 months or so and sell both models for a year or more to see which model sells better and to see which model bring more cash to the company.


Unfortunately Aptera has made the hard and correct decisson. The founders should have addressed the two major issues with the Aptera vehicle early on.

1. Roll down windows.
2. The very large width between the two front wheels.

I do think Aptera could have kept employees on by going with Fanbro and Anthony's idea in a limited manor as you suggest. Split windows would work. I do not think that any more than 15% of the present 4000 reservation holders would have taken this, as they would want to wait for the full roll down window version. To much of a penalty for me to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a car that is extremely wide and limited roll down windows.

One other point is Aptera would then have to support and maintain these "one off" first vehicles. That probably would not have been to bad though.

JMHO

[jstdadd]

they can cut their burn rate even more by making and selling the pp6...

just set up and ask at myaptera.com..."Your reservation spot is coming up. Congrats! Would you like to purchase the Aptera 2e version 1 seen here (insert photo of the pp6). This version does not have roll down windows. If yes, please click HERE to confirm your car. If you would like to wait for Aptera 2e version 2 with a modified body and roll down windows, click HERE. You will keep your spot in line and should see the 2e version 2 in late 2010 or early 2011. Thanks."

sell a couple of thousand pp6 models, add the roll down window model in 9 months or so and sell both models for a year or more to see which model sells better and to see which model bring more cash to the company.

Suggested Poll:

"I am a reservation holder and I would take an Aptera 2e PP6 immediately.:

* Yes
* No

I think I'll send them an email today with that message.

[G-Jet]

"I think I'll send them an email today with that message."

You really think they care? the lack of support for reservation holders should tell you the answer.

G

[wolfdoggy]

Suggested Poll:

"I am a reservation holder and I would take an Aptera 2e PP6 immediately.:

* Yes
* No

I think I'll send them an email today with that message.


I suggest you change it to:

" I am a 2e reservation holder..."

Myself, I have a reservation for a 2h (#148). Considering I want a 2h and not a 2e, your poll would not be accurate with a 2h reservation voting in your poll.

I think the poll idea is good though!!

[DSC OFF]

Just because the company is going through hard times doesn't change the fact that the Aptera is still revolutionary. Things happen and situations change, but the Aptera is still the Aptera in the end. It's not like Aptera is filing for bankruptcy. As far as it's going, this is just a phase in the company. I don't feel it will fold.


It is NOT revolutionary until it is actually produced. At this point, it's just a great idea.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Well, it's a revolutionary design. They've already built prototypes of it and the design is licensed to Aptera. If you mean production as in for the masses, then I can see where you're coming from.

[Aptera#1434]

they can cut their burn rate even more by making and selling the pp6...

just set up and ask at myaptera.com..."Your reservation spot is coming up. Congrats! Would you like to purchase the Aptera 2e version 1 seen here (insert photo of the pp6). This version does not have roll down windows. If yes, please click HERE to confirm your car. If you would like to wait for Aptera 2e version 2 with a modified body and roll down windows, click HERE. You will keep your spot in line and should see the 2e version 2 in late 2010 or early 2011. Thanks."

sell a couple of thousand pp6 models, add the roll down window model in 9 months or so and sell both models for a year or more to see which model sells better and to see which model bring more cash to the company.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sign me up for this plan!!!

[eestorfan]

Well, it's a revolutionary design. They've already built prototypes of it and the design is licensed to Aptera. If you mean production as in for the masses, then I can see where you're coming from.
There are a lot of 'prototypes' that never make it to market. I don't believe he's necessarily talking about mass production. At least for me, it's a concept car as it stands presently. I would LOVE to have one, but since I'm not in CA, I know it would be 2-3 years before they get here, IF they produce any. I want to stop using natural resources NOW, so I'm open to other EVs.

[Sapphire Dragon]

I want to stop using natural resources NOW, so I'm open to other EVs.
I see what you mean. The Aptera seems like the best car to drive if you want to stop using so much natural resources, but if you need a car now, then I can see why you're looking for other EVs. For me personally, I can wait at least 2 to 3 years before it would probably be best for me to get a car- but not everyone can wait until Aptera gets everything together. If I didn't know about the Aptera, I would probably be moving towards the plug-in Prius (though since the price is supposedly astronomically high, I would probably have to reconsider). I understand your point.

[mikekinney]

Maybe things aren't so bad?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2009/11/aptera.html

Fambro, who stepped aside as chief executive in September 2008, “agreed to take the rest of the year off” to attend to personal issues with his family, McCammon said. He plans to return to the company after the first of the year, McCammon added.

Anthony, who was working on product development and marketing, was only devoting about 20% of his time to Aptera and left to focus on his other business interests, McCammon said.

Both men will remain members of the Aptera board and major shareholders in the company, he said.
The departures have spurred a fair amount of comment in online forums and speculation that the pair were forced out in a coup engineered by Paul Wilbur, who replaced Fambro as CEO.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4337060.html

Recent reports claiming that Aptera motors founders were "ousted in a boardroom showdown" appear to be false.

Aptera, a company we've been covering since its inception two years ago, has let some employees go in order to save money recently as they wait for the final round of funding and re-apply for a DOE loan.

[Sapphire Dragon]

At this point, it's basically what you choose to believe as the most valid. The core battle of the reports is between Wired's article and PM's article. Personally, I believe PM's more, because of what has been said before: PM seems to be the source of the most relevant information for Aptera to date. Yes, that also means it could be spin, but I'd rather hope for the best than get discouraged on the worst.

[Matthijs]

I am convinced that the PM story, how reliable the source may be is a spin story. I really hope that it's not the case but from all what I have heard I fear it's an attempt to spin or buy time to end of the year.

[rmunson1]

One way to end the endless spinning on the forum (is PM the correct version, or just spin and the Wired version is the correct version?) is for Aptera to actually formally communicate - their financial status, their product plans, their new target dates, their staffing plans...

Of course there are thousands of posts about the lack of communication, so this (hearing from Aptera) will not be the likely solution to 'which is the correct version?' But, what a novel approach that would be.

[Matthijs]

Latest-

Steve Fambro and Chris Anthony let go from Aptera.

This is absurd. Paul W. is out for blood, and a coward. 30% were also laid off equaling 20 something employees left, from 75 about 8 months ago. Didn't they have 29 Million in the bank when Paul W. started?
I was reading back, and this quote seems to be correct when you read this news article:
http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=3630

And watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1YGF_9aMac#t=01m18s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1YGF_9aMac#t=01m18s)

I really hope more will come out in the future. And watching that video again with Steve talking about Aptera and the future and seeing Tim Dine made me sad.

[mchicab]

How much of the actual design work do you think he does these days? Certainly when he started out making kit planes, he did both running the company and the development. But I seriously doubt he does much engineering or physical production work these days.

Do you have any idea of the accomplishments and awards the Burt Rutan has compiled over his career? Name a single award Fambro has garnered besides being the first founder of a 3-wheeled electric motorcycle project to get the Holiday boot out the back door.

If you've forgotten, a couple of accomplishments of Rutan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutan_Voyager
Here's what he did with $25 million :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceShipOne

How many millions of dollars has Fambro burned through so far with NO end product ?

Great men (and women ;)) can accomplish great things. It isn't easy, and takes exceptional people, with exceptional skills and determination.

Steve Jobs is another example of a leader who can do it all - cutting edge design down to every last detail, while managing a workforce, turning around a computer company on the brink of bankruptcy into a truly signature, HIS that is, Fortune 500 technology powerhouse.

[TheAeronut]

It's not Fambro who has burned through all that money. As I understand, Aptera pretty much had a vehicle almost ready for production a year ago - until PW pissed all over it and insisted on a total redesign to meet HIS vision of a mass market vehicle....

J.P.

[lapwing]

Do you have any idea of the accomplishments and awards the Burt Rutan has compiled over his career? Name a single award Fambro has garnered besides being the first founder of a 3-wheeled electric motorcycle project to get the Holiday boot out the back door.

If you've forgotten, a couple of accomplishments of Rutan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutan_Voyager
Here's what he did with $25 million :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceShipOne

.................

Great men (and women ;)) can accomplish great things. It isn't easy, and takes exceptional people, with exceptional skills and determination.

...........

I know that I can't imagine what a man like Rutan could achieve in a year or two on the Aptera concept. He is always way outside the box in the best possible way.

All this talk on who would be the best match for an Aptera buyout.

How about Scaled Composites. Difinitely a cut above anything the current PW might muster.

[IanO]

I know that I can't imagine what a man like Rutan could achieve in a year or two on the Aptera concept. He is always way outside the box in the best possible way.

All this talk on who would be the best match for an Aptera buyout.

How about Scaled Composites. Difinitely a cut above anything the current PW might muster.

And you forgot that Scaled already made one hypercar attempt... for GM no less!

Ultralight GM Show Car (http://scaled.com/projects/gmcar.html)

You might have caught a glimpse of them as a prop in the movie "Demolition Man".

Seriously, Scaled may not be such a good fit. They are at the high-end of the composite business. Their skill is in prototyping rather than mass-production and cost reduction. Also their pockets aren't that deep. Their most famous work was all bankrolled by other millionaires.

[aptera1213]

How about Branson then? Maybe he can buy Aptera and start a VirginCars with the Aptera 2e as the start up model, and the palomar as the flagship model in a year or so.

[drivin98]

How about Branson then? Maybe he can buy Aptera and start a VirginCars with the Aptera 2e as the start up model, and the palomar as the flagship model in a year or so.

Hey, that's a pretty good idea actually. Wish I had his number, I'd give him a ring. Maybe he's on Facebook....

[apt2123h]

Hey, that's a pretty good idea actually. Wish I had his number, I'd give him a ring. Maybe he's on Facebook....

I don't know about Facebook, but he is on twitter: http://twitter.com/richardbranson

[eyeh8pollution]

I just want my money back. Been a month now and still no deposit return.

[turbo wing]

How about Branson then? Maybe he can buy Aptera and start a VirginCars with the Aptera 2e as the start up model, and the palomar as the flagship model in a year or so.


I doubt Branson would ever buy a company with the reputation Aptera now has, he would probably just start his own company with his own design that would look nothing like the Aptera, there are other equally energy efficient shapes that could be a good compromise between getting the best mileage and customer appeal,

[MarkTwain]

To quote Gene Hackman (from Hoosiers), "please people the people who stand before you are your team. They lay it on the line everyday representing you. Respect that effort by celebrating who we are, and not who we are not." I love Jimmy Chitwood AND Richard Branson AND Subaru, but I cheer for the current Apterans! Go get 'em, bring home the X-Prize, get the new plant built, and then build my damn car, but get it right. I want my kid to be able to ride in it with me and not die if some DUI hits me.

Mark Twain wants his 2e!

[Matthijs]

I just got some news that is not looking very pretty:

Latest...Aptera have been delivered an eviction notice for non payment on lease. I can't confirm from here tho so check. Take care.

I have not been on the forum for some days. Is there any news on this?

[Apt3448]

(...) I cheer for the current Apterans! Go get 'em, bring home the X-Prize, get the new plant built, and then build my damn car, but get it right. I want my kid to be able to ride in it with me and not die if some DUI hits me.

Mark Twain wants his 2e!
X-prize would be great, sure.
Rob wants a 2e, too, but he doesn't want to have to wait for a new factory. Sure they can build faster in a perfect world, but in the current one, I rather see a trickle of safe vehicles (one dollar in the pot for you, it's no car!) coming out of the current plant. If the water is nice, jump in it, that holds for Aptera, too. I don't any of us here would like to die in a crash, but don't I wanna die of old age before the 2e get there, either.

[Apt3448]

I just got some news that is not looking very pretty:



Holy cow! no, this is a scoop. Welcome back, happy new year, BTW.

Read the newsletter and you'll be up to date. There is a bit in it on a plan for a new factory that has been odd. Well, this might be the reason for that plan?!

Can you share the source of that quote?

[Matthijs]

I will do some reading up now, Happy new year and best wishes to you too. We are blessed with snow and black ice. All I can say is that it comes from the same source as the other quotes from this thread.

[iwannaptera]

Latest...Aptera have been delivered an eviction notice for non payment on lease. I can't confirm from here tho so check. Take care.

Wow! If that is true, then Aptera is likely to be in SERIOUS trouble, if not bankrupt already.... I can only hope there is some misunderstanding.

[KarenRei]

I just got some news that is not looking very pretty:


I'll check with some sources and see if any of them A) know, and B) can say anything about this.

[Matthijs]

I'll check with some sources and see if any of them A) know, and B) can say anything about this.

That would be a good thing. If this is true then Aptera is a so called mailbox company until they find a new facility?

[Joseph Bassett]

+1


i know little to nothing about running a company...and i know everybody says you can't have the designers and dreamers run a company...

but there must be exceptions to that rule...a designer who can also run a company?

It is so weird to see this because it is the exact same trajectory my father had when he got started in agriculture. Unfortunately it took a pass through chapter 11 to realize that a commited founder and engineer is often the only person who can make a manufacturing startup like this work. I don't think Aptera would survive restructuring. And as is so often the case, the best products never get made.

What's sad is that the automotive establishment isn't even going to have to step in and buy Aptera to table the car. They did it to themselves. Even though I have sort of become disillusioned with the 3 wheel concept (snow...), the broader design is going to mark a milestone in automotive history. They should just make it out of ultra high strength steel and develope the composite manufacturing tech on the side.

Who knows. If they ever make a car I will be the first one out to buy one.

[turbo wing]

I thought when Aptera moved to this new building it was big enough to take care of there manufacturing needs,

well if Aptera turns into a smoking hole in the ground I guess FVT is starting to look all that much better

[SEGsby]

I think you're right.