Competing Cars II

[Matthijs]

Please continue here:

[Dolphyn]

In case any forum administrator is watching, I'll suggest that I think "Competing Cars" should be a forum category instead of a thread! Thanks.

[Matthijs]

I cannot do that. Only Brian the admin can do that. So please carry on here and if Brian thinks it's a good idea he can place it into the new forum.

[SEGsby]

I second the idea for a distinct area for EV discussions that are not directly related to the Aptera...

[danieloneil01]

By the looks of it we might need to change the web address too.

[mweston]

It's looking like my first EV is more likely to be one of these (http://focusdesigns.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/SBUSpecSheet.pdf) [PDF] than an Aptera. As seen briefly on Mythbusters.

[evmavin]

Post moved here...


Originally Posted by NmGfan


Sorry gang...
Yeah, 50 NmG's over three years (Corbin sold about 330 Sparrows in 5 years). Just think if it was a hit, say 5 units a month, they would have sold out in 14 months, or launched in 2006 and close shop in early 2007 when inventory ran out. At $30K x 70 units, that's a total of $2.1million, so it was never about being profitable on the NmG. The low burn rate has more to do with keeping the company small and lean while producing a few units per month and learn about making low cost EV's. The labor cost to assemble a NmG was the killer, not the component costs. The company is privately held, funded by Dana Myers, not investors. Yes, a few of us that wanted an EV now purchased NmG's, almost all units sold by Myers went to individuals, nationwide.

As for the new Duo, the low end 60 mile range model will go for about $22.5K and the 100 mile range model with AC will go for about $27.5K after tax incentives are included. They are keeping their tech simple and low cost with a goal of making the vehicle cost relevant at $1.50/gal gasoline or $4.50/gal+. I don't have the exact number yet, but their first month's order rate will be measured in the hundreds of units.


EV MAVIN response:

I would bet they never saw a dime of profit but rather a loss so it's pointless, I know they are a private company and I also know where their money really came from years ago, but that's another story. The price you quoted is not accurate as it includes a company discount of $5000 only for the first pre-orders as a means to jump start business, making the real price $27.5k for the 60 mile model not $22.5K. They claimed a totally unrealistic cell-reversing 40 miles on the original NMG so I take 60 miles range with a grain of salt or a 90% DOD but even so it's low for a car that size with lithium.

If that car is made of fiberglass and has an ADC motor 8" motor and DC controller and no Tango-like full roll cage, then its just too pricy for its components. Belt RWD, no regen, low rpm brushed DC motor, too pricy. The only way this model makes sense is VERY low MFG cost and high volume with sales under $15K. I can't wait to see the component specs and real-world numbers and I bet they end up with a fun, over priced toy that never meets the pre-order figures.

[NmGfan]

I don't know where this post disappeared to... (edit: now I do)


I would bet they never saw a dime of profit but rather a loss so it's pointless,
I know they are a private company and I also know where their money really came
from years ago, but that's another story. The price you quoted is not accurate
as it includes a company discount of $5000 only for the first pre-orders as a
means to jump start business, making the real price $27.5k for the 60 mile model
not $22.5K. They claimed a totally unrealistic cell-reversing 40 miles on the
original NMG so I take 60 miles range with a grain of salt or a 90% DOD but even
so it's low for a car that size with lithium.

If that car is made of fiberglass and has an ADC motor 8" motor and DC
controller and no Tango-like full roll cage, then its just too pricy for its
components. Belt RWD, no regen, low rpm brushed DC motor, too pricy. The only
way this model makes sense is VERY low MFG cost and high volume with sales under
$15K. I can't wait to see the component specs and real-world numbers and I
bet they end up with a fun, over priced toy that never meets the pre-order
figures.

...but at least you are consistent in your responses. If I understand you correctly, these guys are losing money left and right on antiquated technology while developing another loser with unbelievable range capability that will not flourish in the market. Yet they continue to actually deliver something that is built to order, and have developed a new 2 seat version that enters public beta testing Feb-Mar 2010.

Meanwhile our champions of advanced EV technology in San Diego County have pretty much blown through $24million+ (like they were ever gonna make it to launch on that feeble amount), have no product to sell to the public, have essentially duped thousands of reservation holders into believing that they were gonna deliver a product at least three times in the last two years, and now NEED scores of millions more $ to even begin to produce a product in low volume. They have serious baggage to deal with before they can even get to the starting point.

Really, right now, who's blowin' smoke, who's business plan is a bigger $$ loser so far, who's lookin' for money to get started, who's founders on are the outside lookin' in, and who has blown through more money with nothing marketable to show for it? Is it the guys in Ohio :scared0011:? I wonder who is drinking the Kool-ade now... Sheesh.

:happy0025:

[JustWilliam]

I don't know where this post disappeared to... (edit: now I do)



...but at least you are consistent in your responses. If I understand you correctly, these guys are losing money left and right on antiquated technology while developing another loser with unbelievable range capability that will not flourish in the market. Yet they continue to actually deliver something that is built to order, and have developed a new 2 seat version that enters public beta testing Feb-Mar 2010.

Meanwhile our champions of advanced EV technology in San Diego County have pretty much blown through $24million+ (like they were ever gonna make it to launch on that feeble amount), have no product to sell to the public, have essentially duped thousands of deposit holders into believing that they were gonna deliver a product at least three times in the last two years, and now NEED scores of millions more $ to even begin to produce a product in low volume. They have serious baggage to deal with before they can even get to the starting point.

Really, right now, who's blowin' smoke, who's business plan is a bigger $$ loser so far, who's lookin' for money to get started, who's founders on are the outside lookin' in, and who has blown through more money with nothing marketable to show for it? Is it the guys in Ohio :scared0011:? I wonder who is drinking the Kool-ade now... Sheesh.

:happy0025:
WORD! I can't wait for the beta testing results.

[evmavin]

I don't know where this post disappeared to... (edit: now I do)



...but at least you are consistent in your responses. If I understand you correctly, these guys are losing money left and right on antiquated technology while developing another loser with unbelievable range capability that will not flourish in the market. Yet they continue to actually deliver something that is built to order, and have developed a new 2 seat version that enters public beta testing Feb-Mar 2010.

Meanwhile our champions of advanced EV technology in San Diego County have pretty much blown through $24million+ (like they were ever gonna make it to launch on that feeble amount), have no product to sell to the public, have essentially duped thousands of reservation holders into believing that they were gonna deliver a product at least three times in the last two years, and now NEED scores of millions more $ to even begin to produce a product in low volume. They have serious baggage to deal with before they can even get to the starting point.

Really, right now, who's blowin' smoke, who's business plan is a bigger $$ loser so far, who's lookin' for money to get started, who's founders on are the outside lookin' in, and who has blown through more money with nothing marketable to show for it? Is it the guys in Ohio :scared0011:? I wonder who is drinking the Kool-ade now... Sheesh.

:happy0025:

Yes, Myers must have lost money left and right with the NMG, two minutes of simple math can prove that. Presently they are not selling the new model so they are still loosing money until they have decent sales that will make a profit and recover all their EV investments. I don't see the new model selling much except some sales in the beginning and then dropping off so I expect them to loose more money but never make a NET profit based on this new offering. So what is the present reservation number count today, I assume that is open to the nation? They are going to need to sell many cars and at the "real" prices stated, I don't see it happening.

This is not a comparison between an Aptera and an Myers product it is my opinion about the new myers car on its on merit. Also I have no idea of the details of the business plans from these two companies as I have never seen them. Aptera has management/political issues from what we can tell but has an exceptional product so far based on the prototypes and price targets but that all remains to be seen in many ways.

Myers has no prototype yet and is SAYING they will launch at a certain date, regardless of all that what I'm saying is that from what it looks like from a product spec point the Myers product is far over priced for its technology and components. The price variable between AC and DC systems is significant and it appears Myers will be using the same DC setup as the NMG since it is a fixed belt ratio which means they will need to gear it for a top speed of about 70 so they wont blow the low RPM motor, about half the PRM of a similar AC motor. Having a gear reduction in the FWD Aptera as an example, is a torque multiplier but it needs to go to a higher RPM range supported by an AC system. And who wants a motor with exposed brushes to the elements, AC motors are FULLY sealed and require no maintenance. Seriously, a $30K plus new EV with an ADC motor and no regen! From what I can see Myers is not out to trick or mislead anyone (except for misleading range numbers) but I just think they don't have good business sense pure and simple, many EV companies don't and they think with a .com company influence at times.

Please be assured I have never even taken a single drop of the Aptera cool aide as some others have and in some cases still do, that's for sure from day one. I'll take a pizza bet on this one, I think I need to call in all those year end delivery bets so I'll have plenty of credits.


P.S. Are you going to buy the new Myers EV? If so will you sell your NMG and what do you think it's worth realistically based on comparable recent sales?

[JustWilliam]

"If that car is made of fiberglass and has an ADC motor 8" motor and DC controller and no Tango-like full roll cage, then its just too pricy for its components. Belt RWD, no regen, low rpm brushed DC motor, too pricy. The only way this model makes sense is VERY low MFG cost and high volume with sales under $15K. I can't wait to see the component specs and real-world numbers and I bet they end up with a fun, over priced toy that never meets the pre-order figures."

Perhaps the "super moderator" should hold off on his betting until he can rely on more than "if's" and assumptions. At this point it's simply another speculative opinion, and obviously valuable as such. It was the demeaning and dismissive nature of the post that I disagree with. By all means state your case, and feel free to bet the farm against Myers Motors providing an american made BEV that can satisfy customers and be sold at a profit. But in my most humble of opinions, your post comes across as too presumptuous to validate it's insulting tone and smells alarmingly of sour grapes.

[evmavin]

"If that car is made of fiberglass and has an ADC motor 8" motor and DC controller and no Tango-like full roll cage, then its just too pricy for its components. Belt RWD, no regen, low rpm brushed DC motor, too pricy. The only way this model makes sense is VERY low MFG cost and high volume with sales under $15K. I can't wait to see the component specs and real-world numbers and I bet they end up with a fun, over priced toy that never meets the pre-order figures."

Perhaps the "super moderator" should hold off on his betting until he can rely on more than "if's" and assumptions. At this point it's simply another speculative opinion, and obviously valuable as such. It was the demeaning and dismissive nature of the post that I disagree with. By all means state your case, and feel free to bet the farm against Myers Motors providing an american made BEV that can satisfy customers and be sold at a profit. But in my most humble of opinions, your post comes across as too presumptuous to validate it's insulting tone and smells alarmingly of sour grapes.


It's an opinion about a corporation and product not a therapy session nor a insult on nor criticism about any one person. It's called business. I'll still take the bet based on the assumptions and "ifs" as they are relevant observations based on the stated design specifications and more fact-based than pure speculation. Do you have a counter opinion based on your observations with some supporting theory? By the way, should I take your "Super Moderator" comment to be demeaning, "JustWilliam" FYI, this is a forum designated description in case you were wondering about the facts:) I could care less but I think it's hypocritical and funny. Are you a reservation holder for a Myers car as well? I dumped my sparrow at the perfect moment before it was worthless and I would buy another if the price were APPROPRIATE for the product.

Does Myers really think the NMG sold so poorly just because it was a single seater, and that was when it was $25K. Consider this, the 2011 Toyota Yaris Hybrid is to be priced about $15k and it packs far more technology then an NMG ever will, toyota could do a 60 mile EV for less than the NMG. The product life for this vehicle is short, even Aptera knows this about the 2e which is why they intended to do another model and will most likely never do a hybrid version on this platform.

Myers now has FEWER than 25 total refundable national pre-order reservations as of today, about .5 per state-ouch! Looks like half of the 50 NMG buyers in the last few years are trading up so far. That's sarcasm, not demeaning. I really don't think anyone can compete in the three-wheel category without a high level of capital, experience, and VOLUME. It does make for a good tax deduction though.

[NmGfan]

...I have no idea of the details of the business plans from these two companies as I have never seen them.

From what I can see Myers... ...I just think they don't have good business sense pure and simple, ...

:confused: So you have no knowledge of either company's business plan but are certain that Myers has no business sense. With contradictions like that in one posting why would anyone believe the rest of your comments are credible, especially if your claim of knowing where Myers funding comes from has any veracity to it.

You know, in the newsletter thread, Sweeps wondered if Myers would deliver before Aptera, and I said they would. Regardless of your negative opinion (after all, that's all it is), Myers has way more credibility on delivery targets than Aptera at this point in time.

I'm looking to add a 2-seat EV to the stable; the single seater is perfect for commute purposes.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

:confused: So you have no knowledge of either company's business plan but are certain that Myers has no business sense. With contradictions like that in one posting why would anyone believe the rest of your comments are credible, especially if your claim of knowing where Myers funding comes from has any veracity to it.

You know, in the newsletter thread, Sweeps wondered if Myers would deliver before Aptera, and I said they would. Regardless of your negative opinion (after all, that's all it is), Myers has way more credibility on delivery targets than Aptera at this point in time.

I'm looking to add a 2-seat EV to the stable; the single seater is perfect for commute purposes.

:happy0025:


Once again, the business plan is a very broad document that is pointless if the product won't sell. If someone wants to sell apples for $300 each I don't need to see their business plan to know its going south. Negative? In my mind it's realistic. The day they brought back the Corbin I thought it was a bad business idea and it would flop, no need to see that business plan. Guess what, it did flop and to say it did not is like saying customer loyalty is number one at Aptera. Note, I did not say customers are number one because Aptera could dish out a bunch of BS pretending they are. And why do you insist on making this an issue about Aptera VS Myers,etc, etc. That's like saying if the Aptera CEO steals all the money and Myers sells 10 cars in total they are a success.

SO forget Aptera, forget "business plans", let's start talking pricing, components, etc and their value to customer if and when this vehicle is available. We do have facts now and those facts so far are not very positive, fewer than 25 cars sold to date, that's not encouraging. Second, if they don't get a better website and marketing they are not going to encourage people to purchase. Acting like the car is really going to cost $22k is a diversion from the facts. So, how will they make a profit and why will they sell these cars in numbers that will give them a NET PROFIT worth the time and resources.


How many cars do you think they will sell?

At what point will they turn a net profit and recover their total investment?

How do you convince large numbers of people to buy a DC, belt-driven, fiberglass, RWD EV with no regen at this price?

Why are there FEWER than 25 pre-orders to date that are being offered a steep discount at this time? Seriously, that should be Myers friends and family alone. I brought almost 20 reservation holders to Aptera in a month and I'm one person, that's almost the entire Myers list!


These are realistic questions that would scare any serious business investor. Remember, this has NOTHING to do with Aptera, Sweeps or anything but the product they deliver and if it is worth purchasing. From what I see now I really don't think in numbers that will make a profit. That could change in the future of course. But until then, let's not ignore the facts so far.

[JustWilliam]

"By the way, should I take your "Super Moderator" comment to be demeaning, "JustWilliam" FYI, this is a forum designated description in case you were wondering about the facts I could care less but I think it's hypocritical and funny."

You are free to take my comment however you wish. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me about the origin of your designated description, but I belong to many forums and this isn't my first rodeo. It does not change the fact that you appear comfortable using contradictions, sarcasm and poor language skills to argue your point, and claim of benign intentions doesn't change that fact.

I don't find you funny at all. You consider my comment hypocritical, and I consider yours inept. I am honestly grateful that you don't care, because I see any further discussion with you valueless.

One needn't be a therapist to recognize their ability to offend. If I have offended any of my fellow forum members, please accept my sincere apologies.

[evmavin]

"By the way, should I take your "Super Moderator" comment to be demeaning, "JustWilliam" FYI, this is a forum designated description in case you were wondering about the facts I could care less but I think it's hypocritical and funny."

You are free to take my comment however you wish. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me about the origin of your designated description, but I belong to many forums and this isn't my first rodeo. It does not change the fact that you appear comfortable using contradictions, sarcasm and poor language skills to argue your point, and claim of benign intentions doesn't change that fact.

I don't find you funny at all. You consider my comment hypocritical, and I consider yours inept. I am honestly grateful that you don't care, because I see any further discussion with you valueless.

One needn't be a therapist to recognize their ability to offend. If I have offended any of my fellow forum members, please accept my sincere apologies.


You made a point at first about the "super moderator" description, I did not. I'm not trying to offend you or be funny, never called you names like some do here. I would like to hear some good debate on facts or opinions with some supporting information. If you think my opinions or ideas are inept why don't you simply come up with a counter point? I find it interesting that when people disagree strongly with the views of others they sometimes get offended while they don't offer any description or information to back their statements. I'm glad this is not your first "rodeo", not sure what that is supposed to mean but I know sarcasm and although it does not offend me but I do call it out when someone is hypocritical about using it. When I say I don't care, it simply means I'm not bothered by sarcasm and I know when people are expressing their opinion VS a personal attack.

This is a forum where for a long time if you said anything contradictory that made sense it was shot down if it was anti-Aptera or EV. My issue with those that can't handle opposition is purely that many have no real basis to back their ideas or opinions and they label everything as "negative", "you are either with us or against us" mentality. There are some very knowledgeable members here are and there are also many people with strong options who are easily offended because they can't support their EV opinions with real debate. This forum really lacks serious EV discussion for the most part. To clarify, I'm not speaking about you, but if I make factual contradictions please point them out and this forum is full of sarcasm, you just have not been here very long.


So let's have some real EV conversation folks, something with opinions and information to discuss.


I also find it odd that some new members seem to sound and act just like old members who have left the forum angry. There are some odd sounding postings lately since all the recent Aptera unrest. It's an observation...

[evmavin]

I see ZAP is doing what they do best, raising money and never delivering a single real EV for years upon years. For those who have kept up on Zap's ever changing website you will know that they always have the next breakthrough EV or car and it always ends up vanishing. At least Aptera built working prototypes. Well now they are "moving away from the Alias".

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/not-so-shocking-admission-zap-kills-xebra-slows-development-of/

I bet they can squeeze out one last EV ghost and some more money before they vanish after a very long run.

[evmavin]

I see ZAP is doing what they do best, raising money and never delivering a single real EV for years upon years. For those who have kept up on Zap's ever changing website you will know that they always have the next breakthrough EV or car and it always ends up vanishing. At least Aptera built working prototypes. Well now they are "moving away from the Alias".

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/not-so-shocking-admission-zap-kills-xebra-slows-development-of/

I bet they can squeeze out one last EV ghost and some more money before they vanish after a very long run.

[NmGfan]

We do have facts now and those facts so far are not very positive, fewer than 25 cars sold to date, that's not encouraging. I'll let it slide that your original post was 50 and then edited down to 25 later. Where do you get your info on Sunday night on a four day Holiday weekend? Probably not from anyone at Myers Motors, but that's just a guess on my part. At any rate, one unit per day in the first month of accepting orders without any advertizing, horrific indeed.

How many cars do you think they will sell?

At what point will they turn a net profit and recover their total investment? Questions that regardless of what I say, no answer will suffice.

How do you convince large numbers of people to buy a DC, belt-driven, fiberglass, RWD EV with no regen at this price? Shape it like a bird without wings, put in an AC motor, sandwich the fiberglass around a foam core like a boat, and tell people that rear wheel regenerative braking is useful (in extending the driving range about as much as replacing incandescent turn signals and brake lights with LED lights). Thousands upon thousands have signed up...

Remember, this has NOTHING to do with Aptera, Sweeps or anything but the product they deliver and if it is worth purchasing. Clearly that's what you want to discuss, at every chance you find mention of Myers Motors or their products. Your intentions are only known to you, but your baiting and antagonistic responses are just plain and simple, argumentive. My reply to Sweeps was in agreement with their post, you just sort of hijacked the affirmation and ran to your bully pulpit with it.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

I'll let it slide that your original post was 50 and then edited down to 25 later. Where do you get your info on Sunday night on a four day Holiday weekend? Probably not from anyone at Myers Motors, but that's just a guess on my part. At any rate, one unit per day in the first month of accepting orders without any advertizing, horrific indeed.



Let it slide? I never edited the number, you said they sold 50 NMG vehicles and I said that fewer than 25 reservations was about half of what they sold. And since you must know where I get my information, I booked a reservation to see what number I would get, it was less than 25.




Questions that regardless of what I say, no answer will suffice.

Shape it like a bird without wings, put in an AC motor, sandwich the fiberglass around a foam core like a boat, and tell people that rear wheel regenerative braking is useful (in extending the driving range about as much as replacing incandescent turn signals and brake lights with LED lights). Thousands upon thousands have signed up...s is not a



This is not a comparison to the Aptera. And FWI, regen in a RWD EV will extend the range of an EV far more than changing to LED lights but does not compare to FWD. RWD regen could be measured up to 30 plus amps, certainly not LED territory.



Clearly that's what you want to discuss, at every chance you find mention of Myers Motors or their products. Your intentions are only known to you, but your baiting and antagonistic responses are just plain and simple, argumentive. My reply to Sweeps was in agreement with their post, you just sort of hijacked the affirmation and ran to your bully pulpit with it.

:happy0025:




We could start a Myers thread, but this is competing cars and I moved the post here as I missed it was off topic. It's funny, you like others, make complete assumptions of my intentions, don't offer factual arguments as a counter point, compare the Myers car to the APtera as though that is what will make it a success.



This is not really a debate on facts or supported opinions. So if the new Myers car is so great why don't you please state some reasons why. And this is not just limited to the Myers product. Bullying? Some people just can't handle an contradictory opinion and they can't support theirs (not Sweeps) Notice I did not make up that reservation number and yes, it's not good and it is exactly what I and others expected which has been my point all along. This car is too costly for what it offerers in build, components, value, and possibly safety. They should make the thing as a glider overseas and drop in a better drive and sell them for less and in numbers but it takes a huge capital investment to do that, which is why Aptera can't deliver. Volume or high purchase quantities equals lower cost of production. It's a cart and horse game.


So as I keep saying, let's debate the vehicles and give some specific reasons to the points because for a long time, Competing Cars is most likely the only section where there is going to be much to discuss as Aptera is not an interesting subject presently and for some time.

[NmGfan]

This is not really a debate on facts or supported opinions.

There is nothing to discuss or debate with you on. Your are consistent with your points regarding this particular company and the technology they are applying posted everywhere in the forum you get a chance. I do find it peculiar that you do not approach any of the other "competing cars" postings with the same zeal you apply towards anything that hints at Myers products.
As far as I can tell, your opinion is that these guys don't know what they are doing, their technology is antiquated, they can't make a profit on low volume vehicles, and the Duo is another waste of time and money doomed to fail in the market. I'm sure you have plenty of technical rationale as to why this is so obvious, so you keep baiting me to have a 'factual' technical discussion about it. What is the point? Your position is crystal clear. You are entitled to your opinion and you freely post it. As I said earlier, no response from me will suffice, and I don't want to be your foil.
My position is that their tech works, and they are moving toward introducing a new two seat model that will probably be available for sale before any other competing electric three wheeler.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

There is nothing to discuss or debate with you on. Your are consistent with your points regarding this particular company and the technology they are applying posted everywhere in the forum you get a chance. I do find it peculiar that you do not approach any of the other "competing cars" postings with the same zeal you apply towards anything that hints at Myers products.
As far as I can tell, your opinion is that these guys don't know what they are doing, their technology is antiquated, they can't make a profit on low volume vehicles, and the Duo is another waste of time and money doomed to fail in the market. I'm sure you have plenty of technical rationale as to why this is so obvious, so you keep baiting me to have a 'factual' technical discussion about it. What is the point? Your position is crystal clear. You are entitled to your opinion and you freely post it. As I said earlier, no response from me will suffice, and I don't want to be your foil.
My position is that their tech works, and they are moving toward introducing a new two seat model that will probably be available for sale before any other competing electric three wheeler.

:happy0025:



Yes, it functions. Will it sell enough to be a viable business model, I say no. I'm not baiting you I'm saying if you have a counter point please give me some reasons other than "there tech works". Yes, it's a primitive three-wheel EV it should work. And again, you are still making assumptions and not addressing the facts, I have been more critical of other EV's then the Myers and perhaps you also missed the point that I like the NMG and I would buy one knowing it's safety and basic design but not at the price offered which is why I don;t think it will hold up as a viable business. What EV would you like to discuss and on what merits? In no way have I been more critical of Myers then others I feel the same way but please understand my points. My points on the Myers are as a business model and although I believe Myers can make this thing I think it's a huge risk. And since you mentioned profit and low numbers, exactly how much margin do you think they are making and how many will they need to sell to recoup their TOTAL investment? That being all the money and time since day one on these products less the profits, if you think it makes sense then please give some guesstimates. I'm really curious in very general terms as to why you think this will make a decent profit. No sarcasm.

[palmer_md]

I can't believe I have not heard of this car. I was very interested in the Venture/Persu/Carver car, and when it died I thought that was it, and then we just recently saw a Nissan that had this tilting technology, and now I find out that there is going to be a car released 1Q 2010 that has this technology. Fantastic. Only problem is it is in France. They will probably quickly spread across Europe, but with our NTSB rules it might be a while before we see it unless they ship it in pieces and we assemble it ourselves. Oh well, but it is pretty cool none the less.

Press Release (http://electriccarphotos.com/lumeneo-smera-2010-is-coming.html)

Buy (http://www.lumeneo.fr/buy.html)
Video (http://www.lumeneo.fr/downloads.html)

www.lumeneo.fr

[palmer_md]

Can someone move the two posts above and rename that thread "competing members" and leave my post at the bottom so we can use this thread in its intended format (to discuss competing cars).

edit: wow, I was joking about removing the previous two posts, but thankyou for removing them. I see they made there way over to the "chatterbox" thread.

[NmGfan]

Amen.

:happy0025:

[JustWilliam]

Can someone move the two posts above and rename that thread "competing members" and leave my post at the bottom so we can use this thread in its intended format (to discuss competing cars).
Well said, and thank you.

I really love the Lumeneo Smera as well. Tilting technology really IS exciting. Motorcycle fun and efficiency coupled with car comfort and practicality. So encouraging that Lumeneo seems ready for imminent production, even if it doesn't make it stateside.

Have you checked out Revolution Motors and their Dagne prototype? If not, it may appeal to you as well. http://www.revolutionmotors.biz/revolution/

[Matthijs]

I can't believe I have not heard of this car. I was very interested in the Venture/Persu/Carver car, and when it died I thought that was it, and then we just recently saw a Nissan that had this tilting technology, and now I find out that there is going to be a car released 1Q 2010 that has this technology. Fantastic. Only problem is it is in France. They will probably quickly spread across Europe, but with our NTSB rules it might be a while before we see it unless they ship it in pieces and we assemble it ourselves. Oh well, but it is pretty cool none the less.

Press Release (http://electriccarphotos.com/lumeneo-smera-2010-is-coming.html)

Buy (http://www.lumeneo.fr/buy.html)
Video (http://www.lumeneo.fr/downloads.html)

www.lumeneo.fr (http://www.lumeneo.fr)
On September 20 I was in Amsterdam talking with the importer of the Smera. He runs an electric car business in Holland and was showcasing a Lotus Elise with a ACP drivetrain and a 3 speed gearbox. He said I had to lookout for the Smera because it would be great to drive and to use in traffic. This because of it's lane splitting capabilities. I have not seen the car in person yet but there are some in Holland already, the picture below is the showroom in Holland. See his business here: http://www.elipo.nl

http://www.zerauto.nl/blog/media/blogs/zerauto/2009/45/091104_Lumeneo.JPG
http://www.zerauto.nl/blog/media/blogs/zerauto/2009/22/090527_Lumeneo_Elipo_2.JPG

My feeling tells me that this cars build quality will be between a production vehicle and a really well build scooter like Vespa or Piaggio. It reminds me a bit of this vehicle:

http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20080312/piaggio-mp3-430-0208.jpg

RA9wfM_nog0
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA9wfM_nog0)

They say that the vehicle will be in the showroom in the beginning of 2010. the specs are pretty nice. Only the price is a bit high. He told me it was going to cost €33.750 including 19% taxes. So €28.361 tax free. Maybe I can drive one in the future and get a better impression on it. But I think it can be a very nice vehicle as a crossing between a carver and a tango.

[palmer_md]

Well said, and thank you.

I really love the Lumeneo Smera as well. Tilting technology really IS exciting. Motorcycle fun and efficiency coupled with car comfort and practicality. So encouraging that Lumeneo seems ready for imminent production, even if it doesn't make it stateside.

Have you checked out Revolution Motors and their Dagne prototype? If not, it may appeal to you as well. http://www.revolutionmotors.biz/revolution/

That is another cool car. They state that they are still 2-3 years away which is probably realistic. Hopefully they will make it.

[G.M.]

That car would fit nicely in my garage right next to my Gilera Fuoco. :)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2656/3829429691_e6f36a6e72_b.jpg

Doesn't look as fast, nor lean as hard, as the Carver. But could be a very nice little city commuter.

I wonder what the range is? Top speed?

G.M.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

The Smera Lumeneo is electric? It seems to be making a lot of noise. And I wondering about how much space there is for the passenger. What is a likely cost, and range?

[JustWilliam]

Thanks for the great Smera video Mathijs! I hadn't seen that one yet, and it looks more fun than ever! The pricing does seem expensive though...

[Matthijs]

The importer claims an acceleration from 0 to 62 mph in 8 seconds, Power 30Kw, top speed 80 mph, range 95 miles, Charge time: 8 hours, weight 350 kg.(771.6 lbs)

Edit: http://www.lumeneo.fr/smera_technical_specifications_eng.html

[rayfellow]

I am weak in the KwH use calculations, but it seems to me the Smera is about as efficient as the Aptera.. ie It has a 10KwH battery.. uses 8KwH to go 90 miles or maybe 5 or 6 Kwh per hour at 50 or 60-mph. Also I really like the idea of 2*20hp motors - one per drive wheel. I often wondered why the Aptera didn't adopt this concept.

It's so light (under 900 lb) and sooo narrow. Great for city driving and parking. is the coefficient of drag mentioned anywhere?

Anyway. if ever mass produced, it would be a $10K to 12K vehicle.

[evmavin]

I am weak in the KwH use calculations, but it seems to me the Smera is about as efficient as the Aptera.. ie It has a 10KwH battery.. uses 8KwH to go 90 miles or maybe 5 or 6 Kwh per hour at 50 or 60-mph. Also I really like the idea of 2*20hp motors - one per drive wheel. I often wondered why the Aptera didn't adopt this concept.

It's so light (under 900 lb) and sooo narrow. Great for city driving and parking. is the coefficient of drag mentioned anywhere?

Anyway. if ever mass produced, it would be a $10K to 12K vehicle.


Depending on the DOD they are using this could be very efficient, the Aptera uses a non-disclosed 17-22kwh pack for 100 miles without disclosing the DOD which I would assume is somewhat conservative for pack longevity.

I am also interested to hear about what Nissan is planning with their two-seat EV which was recently mentioned. I think there is a good possibility of some exciting small EV platform announcements in Q1 and the Nissan push could certainly help move that forward sooner. Toyota made a small mention of three new EV products to be announced soon, different from the IQ platform, I hope they pull another Prius move in the EV sector and are hiding a secret compact EV project.

[NmGfan]

They say that the vehicle will be in the showroom in the beginning of 2010. the specs are pretty nice. Only the price is a bit high. He told me it was going to cost €33.750 including 19% taxes. So €28.361 tax free. Maybe I can drive one in the future and get a better impression on it. But I think it can be a very nice vehicle as a crossing between a carver and a tango.

My very crude euro to dollar conversion yields a very pricey $42,541.50 (before taxes) for a single seat 4 wheel version of my NmG (looks like nicer fit and finish interior, quadruple range, among other likely advantages along with that cool lean technology). Just another hint to me that EV prices at the low end seem to be around $25K-$35K, mid-range $35K-$45K, and upper end $45K-and beyond...
But what's with doors on both sides?? A little overkill for a single seat.
:happy0025:

[evmavin]

My very crude euro to dollar conversion yields a very pricey $42,541.50 (before taxes) for a single seat 4 wheel version of my NmG (looks like nicer fit and finish interior, quadruple range, among other likely advantages along with that cool lean technology). Just another hint to me that EV prices at the low end seem to be around $25K-$35K, mid-range $35K-$45K, and upper end $45K-and beyond...
But what's with doors on both sides?? A little overkill for a single seat.
:happy0025:


Euro pricing tends to be highly inflated. The old price targets for the US an Euro Think models did not compare, regardless it's high. A leaning Aptera could possibly solve the width issue a bit and would be very Jetson like but would add 5 years to delivery.

[NeilBlanchard]

VW has just shown the Up! Lite at the LA auto show:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/12/02/volkswagen-up-lite-concept-at-2009-la-auto-show/#comments

1,530 pounds, four seats, 0.8L 2-cylinder diesel w/ 10kW electric motor full hybrid, 0.237Cd, active cooling grill & three rear view video cameras -- 96mpg US Combined. They also say 70mpg US Highway, which is a little confusing...

It looks pretty darn good, too:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/01-vw-up-lite-live.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/05-vw-up-lite-live.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/06-vw-up-lite-live.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/12-vw-up-lite-live.jpg

Carbon fiber (roof and wheel spokes, at least!), aluminum, and lightweight steel...

[evmavin]

The VW is nice looking, I wish it were a full EV. With the materials used for that weight it would seem to be quite expensive to produce, particularly as an EV. There are some Volvo styling similarities on the rear.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I agree that it would be better as an BEV, or a plug in serial hybrid: eliminate the ultra-fancy 7-speed dual clutch transmission it currently has and increase the size of the electric motor, and use the 800cc diesel engine (or a smaller version of it!) to generate power to charge the battery. A bigger battery would be good, too.

The aero drag could be improved with (at least partial) rear wheel skirts, and a longer, slightly more tapered rear, etc.

[PatQ562]

I'm not a big fan of GM or its products, although I did get to see the Volt at a local Cars and Coffee last weekend (yawn - another over-decorated gadget-mobile), but anyone who wants to see what a real car company does for testing should follow autobloggreen's links regarding the Volt, to GM's press release detailing some of the testing - cycling 300 battery packs up to 300,000 miles equivalent, a batch of 80 test prototypes, hydraulic shakers, crash testing, battery deformation, corrosion, etc etc. The Aptera-e need not be distracted by the ICE issues, and intelligent designers can draw conclusions from fewer test samples, but this work needs to be done if we want a well-sorted vehicle. If nothing else, GM has done a lot of heavy lifting to qualify an Aptera-sized battery pack :D

[Apt3448]

I'm not a big fan of GM or its products, although I did get to see the Volt at a local Cars and Coffee last weekend (yawn - another over-decorated gadget-mobile), but anyone who wants to see what a real car company does for testing should follow autobloggreen's links regarding the Volt, to GM's press release detailing some of the testing - cycling 300 battery packs up to 300,000 miles equivalent, a batch of 80 test prototypes, hydraulic shakers, crash testing, battery deformation, corrosion, etc etc. The Aptera-e need not be distracted by the ICE issues, and intelligent designers can draw conclusions from fewer test samples, but this work needs to be done if we want a well-sorted vehicle. If nothing else, GM has done a lot of heavy lifting to qualify an Aptera-sized battery pack :D

Hear, hear. The more I read about the Volt, and about the LEAF, the more I see how much time and money goes into (potentially) making these things. Then they still have plenty of delays and issues. Oh, and vehicles we frown upon. Aptera, as a startup, always had the odds against it. Little or no room for mistakes, with fewer ways of proper testing. Example: one vehicle has a problem - see Las Vegas battery issues. Fluke or design problem?

[NmGfan]

A nice shot of what a modern EV assembly line should look like from ABG.
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/think-production-2-630.jpg
These guys will kill the entire 2300 unit backlog by Christmas 2009!
This is what we should see when Aptera Motors is talking about manufacturing launch.

:happy0025:

[Apt3448]

A nice shot of what a modern EV assembly line should look like from ABG.

These guys will kill the entire 2300 unit backlog by Christmas 2009!
This is what we should see when Aptera Motors is talking about manufacturing launch.


Sure, rub it in... :( :(

[NmGfan]

The rub wasn't intended, but we now have an idea of what things might look like when production launch is mentioned. Looks like a fair amount of capital expenditure involved there...

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Anyone who has ever driven a Think knows what a great small car it is. This vehicle is practical, versatile, durable and safe and makes a great big city EV. The best part is if you get a scratch on the body you can get rid of it with a heat gun! No chips, dings, dents, rust or wax needed. I really hope they make this affordable in the US as it could be another EV I would buy for most of my urban travel.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I have not seen this drool-inducing concept car mentioned yet.

Chicago 2008: North American Debut of the Toyota 1/x — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2008/02/06/chicago-2008-north-american-debut-of-the-toyota-1-x/1#c23947127)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/02/x-1280-11.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/02/x-1280-1.jpg

It seats four people. It's curb weight is 926 pounds! It has a 4 gallon fuel tank, and has a total range of over 600 miles!

It is a plug in (serial?) hybrid with lithium batteries and a 500cc flex fuel engine. I'm guessing that it is a serial hybrid, based on the displacement of the ICE, and that there is no mention of a transmission, and the packaging/arrangement of the drivetrain would seem to be easier if it was -- a parallel hybrid would probably weigh more and be bulkier, too.

If they start using chicken feathers to get lower cost carbon fiber, this seems to be a quite feasible car. I'd buy one in an instant!

I'm guessing that this is an updated version of the 1/X:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/12/14/detroit-preview-toyota-to-debut-new-hybrid-concept-vehicle/

Here are the teaser shots, that look like they would fit the 1/X:

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/2010_naias_hybrid_concept_1.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/2010_naias_hybrid_concept_2.jpg

[kerbe]

...and here's the latest news from Toyota:

http://gmy.news.yahoo.com/vid/17138394

[eestorfan]

Hi,

I have not seen this drool-inducing concept car mentioned yet.

Chicago 2008: North American Debut of the Toyota 1/x — Autoblog Green (http://green.autoblog.com/2008/02/06/chicago-2008-north-american-debut-of-the-toyota-1-x/1#c23947127)

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/02/x-1280-11.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/02/x-1280-1.jpg

It seats four people. It's curb weight is 926 pounds! It has a 4 gallon fuel tank, and has a total range of over 600 miles!

It is a plug in (serial?) hybrid with lithium batteries and a 500cc flex fuel engine. I'm guessing that it is a serial hybrid, based on the displacement of the ICE, and that there is no mention of a transmission, and the packaging/arrangement of the drivetrain would seem to be easier if it was -- a parallel hybrid would probably weigh more and be bulkier, too.

If they start using chicken feathers to get lower cost carbon fiber, this seems to be a quite feasible car. I'd buy one in an instant!

I'm guessing that this is an updated version of the 1/X:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/12/14/detroit-preview-toyota-to-debut-new-hybrid-concept-vehicle/

Here are the teaser shots, that look like they would fit the 1/X:

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/2010_naias_hybrid_concept_1.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/12/2010_naias_hybrid_concept_2.jpg

Drool-inducing? It's a HYBRID! No thanks! Here's an excerpt from the Gas 2.0 website as to why hybrids are NOT going to help: According to an analysis conducted by the National Research Council and partly funded by the U.S. Department of Energy, the roll-out of plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) to the U.S. market will be too slow to have any real effect on our greenhouse gas emissions or oil addiction until at least the 2030s. Here's the link: http://gas2.org/2009/12/14/new-federal-report-plug-in-hybrids-wont-help-for-decades/

[PatQ562]

No single solution such as hybrids, or Apteras, or solar panels, etc is going to solve excessive greenhouse gases. We need all of it and more. Anything that actually matters by 2030 is good progress.
Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Right -- any car that can get 150+ MPG is pretty damn good; in my book. That might even be as good or better than many electric cars? Well-to-wheel that is... And certainly as a platform for an EV, it would be incredibly good.

It seats twice as many people as the Aptera -- and yet weighs ~55% as much! C'mon -- it's an amazing car!

[KarenRei]

It seat twice as many people as the Aptera -- and yet weighs ~55% as much!

TANSTAAFL .

[Dolphyn]

Drool-inducing? It's a HYBRID! No thanks! Here's an excerpt from the Gas 2.0 website as to why hybrids are NOT going to help: According to an analysis conducted by the National Research Council and partly funded by the U.S. Department of Energy, the roll-out of plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) to the U.S. market will be too slow to have any real effect on our greenhouse gas emissions or oil addiction until at least the 2030s. Here's the link: http://gas2.org/2009/12/14/new-federal-report-plug-in-hybrids-wont-help-for-decades/
My interpretation of that report is "PHEVs would help a lot, if only people would buy them."

The report predicts that people won't buy PHEVs because the batteries are too expensive. By that logic, the case for pure electric cars is hopeless, because pure electrics require even more expensive batteries.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

TANSTAAFL .

I don't understand -- where is the free lunch?

The Toyota 1/X has a curb weight of 926 pounds. It seats four people. The Aptera weighs ~1700 pounds, and carries two people. Those are the facts.

We know the Aptera is an amazing efficient vehicle. They mentioned (what seems like an age ago) that the 2h would get ~130mpg in charging mode.

The claim for the 1/X is that is can go at least 600 miles on a four gallon fuel tank. The engine is a "flex fuel" 500cc unit. I'm guessing, that it is a serail hybrid -- but whatever it is, if it gets ~150mpg, it would be a very efficient car.

[KarenRei]

Cutting *that* much weight doesn't come free. It generally comes at the cost of either safety, comfort, or purchase price (usually all three)

[PatQ562]

I agree that as a low volume prototype, ultra-light construction is expensive, just like batteries, AC motor/controllers etc. But given mass production, a lower material content bodes well for EVENTUAL cost reductions.

Safety is a problem. Regardless of passenger-cell strength and padding, a light car is going to be knocked around by a heavy car. Of course we all wish those dangerously heavy menaces to society could be removed from civilized highways :)

De-compounding weight offers a sustainable route to lower cost overall, just like we hoped the Aptera (sob) would offer.

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Sure -- carbon fiber is the big unknown; especially for cost. But there are new techniques and sources -- chicken feathers, for one, that should lower the costs. John Britten built his first motorcycle with $200-300 worth of carbon fiber. And the spray "printing" methods that the folks at RMI are working on seem to be lowering the cost. I heard that Toyota has signed agreements with (the largest?) carbon fiber manufacturer -- I've forgotten the name.

The VW Up! Lite weighs less than the Aptera (1,530 pounds vs ~1,700) and it uses some steel and aluminum. So, even there you can see a much better weigh/passenger ratio. The VW has an 800cc diesel vs the Toyota's 500cc flex fuel. The VW has a 7-speed dual clutch transmission -- the 1/X does not mention a transmission; which is why I suspect/hope that it is a serial hybrid. The thing about lowering weight is that it multiplies: lower weight cahssis means that everything else can be lower weight: the electric motor, the batteries, everything can be lighter.

As for safety: the example that Amory Lovins uses in his TED video is the McClaren sport coupe: two 15 pound carbon fiber cones provide a very effective crumple zone. F1 cars have immense strength and have to deal with 750-900HP engines, 3.5G down forces and up to 5G+ lateral and braking -- and crashes at speeds like 150mph! I think that a 1,000 four passenger car like the 1/X or a 1,600 pound like the Up! Lite are totally doable, if we set out minds to it...

[KarenRei]

You keep comparing concept cars to what was practically rolled out the door at Aptera. Concept cars are generally built much lighter than you can practically achieve on a production car that has all of the comfort and safety features consumers demand and is durable and affordable. If you want to look at the case of Aptera, the Mk0 weighed ~850 lbs. Going from concept to production always significantly increases weight. It happened with the Aptera, it happened with the 1L car, it happened with the Impact (despite a significant range drop), and it'll happen with the Up!

[aptera1213]

sadly the only apteras we have seen have also been concept models...

or so it seems...we don't really know the size, weight or build of the production intent aptera...

i agree that the toyota will increase in weight (the VW can keep its current weight, but will be expensive)...but on a different type of "up" note, if toyota wants to build the 1/x, they will. they don't have to wait for capital and such...and even if toyota almost doubles the weight, they will have a 4 passenger car that is the same weight of the aptera...pretty cool

on a secondary up note, number 124 just canceled, so i just moved up one spot...

mmm, actually not sure that is an up note...i feel bad for number 124...and i also worry a bit about aptera if such low deposit holders are jumping ship...

[Dolphyn]

Here's another electric vehicle that is very light ... and fluffy :jumping0001:

YWv4Vy_zLaI

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWv4Vy_zLaI)

[SlowSRT4]

That cupcake video had me cracking up, he almost rolled the thing over haha. :biggrin:


By the way, I'm looking to buy an electric 3-wheeler next year. I was looking at the Myers DUO but it is a tad expensive. Now I am considering the Arcimoto due to its attractive sub-20k price tag (I'm guessing 17-18k after federal tax credit?).

I live in Michigan so Aptera is out of the question for now, as much as I would love to have an Aptera next year. Also, I absolutely want something by the end of next year. I don't want to keep driving my SRT4 for 3 years while I patiently wait for a new EV that was supposed to make it to production.

So is the Arcimoto a good choice for now due to its cheap price, until possibly better EVs like Aptera come along? Or is the Myers DUO worth the extra money? Or if there are any other vehicles I missed (obviously a NEV won't work). :character0021:

[scottsim]

Would like to see more technical specs on the Acrimoto...some encouraging stuff their website: http://www.arcimoto.com/

[IanO]

Would like to see more technical specs on the Acrimoto...some encouraging stuff their website: http://www.arcimoto.com/

Thanks for this! I'm going to put down a deposit, since it is freeway capable and will be available in Oregon far sooner than the Aptera. They are aiming for under $20k starting Fall 2010. To be charitable, I'll translate that to $25k by the end of 2011. :)

So what distinguishes this from the proposed two-seat NmG vehicle?

Ian

[JustWilliam]

I'm an Oregonian and would love to see Arcimoto do well, but their proposed price of "less than $20k" is for a base model with lead acid batteries. Until we know the cost and capabilities of the Lithium-ion pack, we can't assume that the Meyers Motors Duo is actually any MORE expensive, and it is possible that it might be less expensive with comparable Lithium-ion packs. And the Duo seems to offer more standard equipment which will be optional on the Arcimoto.

Personally, I find the Duo far more desirable. I prefer side by side seating to tandem seating in a non-tilting Reverse trike. I find the Duo far more attractive and distinctive in appearance- Better balanced and resolved. Arcimoto looks to me like a narrowed Toyota Yaris from the front view. Which is also it's best view. From the rear three quarter view it really falls apart for me. Aft of the B pillar the design looks to have been inspired by the always lovely Pontiac Aztec- awkward angles, confused and mismatched glazing, no sense of proportion. I like the fact that Meyers Motors has at least some experience in producing limited volume three wheeled ev's . I like the fact that they will be offering public beta testing, and that they base prices on volume.

I'd prefer EITHER vehicle to the Green Vehicles Triac. It is being customer beta tested as we speak but almost NOBODY is talking. An exception is Randy Bopp, and you can read his blog here http://mytriacrocks.blogspot.com/
I find the Triac somewhat better looking than the Arcimoto, but I'm not willing to purchase a Chinese assembled vehicle for a number of reasons.

I think all three are fairly comparable at this point, even in pricing. But I prefer the Duo.

[SlowSRT4]

Actually when I went to the pre-order page I found out they are only offering the Arcimoto in a few states. These companies should really state where the vehicle is available more prominently on their websites. Talk about a downer. :scared0016:

I guess I will put down a pre-order for the Duo, since Myers Motors seems content to deliver to all states instead of just a select few. :animal0017:

That's a good point about the lead-acid batteries, didn't notice that. I would prefer to go with lithium-ion if possible. But honestly I still would've taken a lead-acid Arcimoto for 18k. :fighting0027:

Hopefully the Duo gets 1,000 pre-orders and drops to 22.5k. :doublethumbs: Of course they will have to get a prototype out along with videos, detailed specs, etc. before that happens.

[PatQ562]

Not to be a wet blanket, but the Arcimoto (and several other kit-car class EV's that have been mentioned) are about where Aptera was 3 years ago. They have "a car" running. They use belt or chain drive to the rear wheel, a DC motor, no regen. If Aptera would ever actually release a $28K vehicle it would have far more value (especially since we don't know the price of Arcimoto with Li-ion batteries). A thing like the Arcimoto, or the Corbin, or similar low-tech EV's are probably fun to tool around the block in, but the belt or chain is going to wear out, your nerves will fray from the noise, putting any real power to a lightly loaded rear wheel makes an already questionable vehicle even more of a death trap, the car's not nearly as streamlined, and there's NO SPECS. These guys don't even state the weight, drive system (other than a motor spec), and any number of other routine and easy-to-measure stats. What's the turning circle? the 0-60 time (or other speed marks)? Tire type? Safety gear? Glazing? Heat/defrost? You won't find these simple and obvious items listed on other "vaporware" sites either, and when such basic information is missing, it's a tip off that they don't really know what they are doing.
Pat Q

[JustWilliam]

"If Aptera would ever actually release a $28K vehicle it would have far more value (especially since we don't know the price of Arcimoto with Li-ion batteries)."

It's both the big "if" and the "$28k" that worry me. But at this time, you make a valid point on the lack of specs on any of these vehicles. Time will tell I suppose.

[PatQ562]

It's even more frustrating when following up on sites reselling cheap Chinese vehicles. China is actually DOING something with EV's, and while maybe short of world-class, they have scads of (somewhat primitive) cars RUNNING and thereby sorting out the worst rough spots. So they COULD be a source for low cost, somewhat usable vehicles with some actual experience behind them. So you go to these sites, click "specs" and see maybe 8 loose descriptions along the lines of "seats four", "range up to 50 miles" without the basic (and easy to measure) stats such as weight, wheel track, interior space, drive system, brake type, etc etc, so a reader could make an informed comparison with other candidates. Do these guys even have a shop or a scale?

[SlowSRT4]

Not to be a wet blanket, but the Arcimoto (and several other kit-car class EV's that have been mentioned) are about where Aptera was 3 years ago. They have "a car" running. They use belt or chain drive to the rear wheel, a DC motor, no regen. If Aptera would ever actually release a $28K vehicle it would have far more value (especially since we don't know the price of Arcimoto with Li-ion batteries). A thing like the Arcimoto, or the Corbin, or similar low-tech EV's are probably fun to tool around the block in, but the belt or chain is going to wear out, your nerves will fray from the noise, putting any real power to a lightly loaded rear wheel makes an already questionable vehicle even more of a death trap, the car's not nearly as streamlined, and there's NO SPECS. These guys don't even state the weight, drive system (other than a motor spec), and any number of other routine and easy-to-measure stats. What's the turning circle? the 0-60 time (or other speed marks)? Tire type? Safety gear? Glazing? Heat/defrost? You won't find these simple and obvious items listed on other "vaporware" sites either, and when such basic information is missing, it's a tip off that they don't really know what they are doing.
Pat Q
Are you referring to the Duo with any of these statements? Seems less likely to be vaporware since Myers Motors has at least been selling highway-speed EVs for a number of years.

Also, while there may be nothing concrete, I wouldn't write-off the Duo completely just because it is 'low-tech'. The concept pictures look good, doesn't seem like there would be a wind noise issue. Even the interior looks very thoughtfully designed.

http://myersmotors.pinnaclecart.com/images/products/secondary/2.jpg

http://myersmotors.pinnaclecart.com/images/products/secondary/7.jpg

http://myersmotors.pinnaclecart.com/images/products/secondary/5.jpg


I completely understand what you are saying about the Aptera. I would buy one if I could. But it will never ever come to Michigan, not in this lifetime. So the Duo seems like a great choice at 22.5k. The battery packs should last for 100,000 miles. As for reliability, they have years of experience from the Sparrow and NMG, I'm sure that means something.

[PatQ562]

The following is copied from Myers Motors, under "General Specs". This was all I could find (except for pricing and an offer to take your money)

Seating: Two*
Range: 60 miles
Batteries: Lithium Ion
Battery Life Expectancy: 100,000+ miles before battery capacity drops to 80% of original capacity, at which time the batteries can still be used in the vehicle or in another application.
Other details: Will be made available later.

All the pictures are computer renderings. This product is still vaporware (defined as plans, dreams, concepts, designs on paper or CAD, but NOT physically available). Sad but true. WHEN they have a tested fleet of vehicles that have run long enough to work out basic problems, so they know how strong everything needs to be, THEN they can actually post specs like weight, wheelbase, dimensions, acceleration, credible range estimates, etc. I want to assume that these guys are sincere and really want to make a new statement in personal transportation, but this is where Aptera stood two years ago - a bold prototype running around, and "delivery next year".

The history of the Corbin Sparrow shows that low-tech EV's still cost too much and don't work well enough to gather any real customer base, so they can never build volume and reduce costs. Thus they go out of business, since they're not underwritten by a larger auto company willing to take a loss while volume builds up. It's a tough business to enter, since mainstream cars are so incredibly refined. I hoped Aptera with $24M capital and a clear focused concept might prove the exception, but making a reliable roadworthy car is not a trivial exercise. Aptera appears to have burned thru their $24M (and a staff of 70 or so designers would indeed have a "burn rate" of about $10M a year or more), but they have built a test fleet, gathered knowledge, and the main controversy was whether they got too ambitious and overdeveloped rather than shipping SOMETHING. I would remind readers however, that to "grow on sales" requires profits, and many of the design embellishments appear to be targeted towards cost reduction and producibility - real world problems that auto-industry people would recognize.

Meanwhile, Aptera, too, has no real specs posted. Or anything.

If Myers actually begins shipping Duos, and you are willing to do your own inspection and maintenance, and you want an EV badly enough to risk driving a lightly-tested car, and can afford to spend the money, you should probably get one before they go broke. This is not a slam - this was sorta my plan for the Aptera. Are they all out of Sparrows?

PS, one of the reasons no EV's have been offered in snow-belt states is the heater problem. Gas engines throw off plenty of heat. Electric cars are efficient, so there's not enough waste heat to use for defrosting or cabin heat. Electric heaters add to the battery's drain, which is already losing capacity in the cold. Three-wheel cars are also questionable in slippery conditions. If you plan on summer-use only, this need not be a problem I suppose.

Pat Q

[SlowSRT4]

If Myers actually begins shipping Duos, and you are willing to do your own inspection and maintenance, and you want an EV badly enough to risk driving a lightly-tested car, and can afford to spend the money, you should probably get one before they go broke. This is not a slam - this was sorta my plan for the Aptera. Are they all out of Sparrows?

PS, one of the reasons no EV's have been offered in snow-belt states is the heater problem. Gas engines throw off plenty of heat. Electric cars are efficient, so there's not enough waste heat to use for defrosting or cabin heat. Electric heaters add to the battery's drain, which is already losing capacity in the cold. Three-wheel cars are also questionable in slippery conditions. If you plan on summer-use only, this need not be a problem I suppose.

Pat Q
Well I guess the idea is that Myers has been building and selling EVs for years now, of which the Duo is based off the NMG. So if anybody should be able to deliver a car, it should be the guys that have already done it.

I would risk the maintenance on a non-mainstream car in order to have zero emissions and achieve some 200 mpg. Plus, it's an electric car, how complex could maintenance possibly be? It isn't a mess of 10,000 moving parts like any modern gas car. I should also mention I remember one of the Myers Motors executives talking about how they were going to build the Duo to be easily self-serviceable or something.

The Sparrow was dead a long time ago. I think they have stopped producing the NMG in order to switch over to manufacturing the Duo?

See, I think they should offer EVs in snow states, especially if that is part of their reason. I'm guessing most people that buy an EV also have a larger gas car for longer trips or hauling cargo, one which could easily be used in the snow. I would personally drive my SRT4 in the winter because of the reasons you mentioned. But an EV you could still drive through all of spring, summer, and fall. It's not like Michigan is part of the arctic circle. :biggrin:

[PatQ562]

Anyone who is willing and able to maintain a vintage car might be interested in what this forum calls a "kit car class" vehicle. Taking as a benchmark, a belt-drive, DC motor vehicle, the basic elements of maintenance will be belt life and DC brushes, along with the usual tires, brakes etc. In bad old days, lead-acid batteries might last 10-15K mlles tops, so most of these cars were "one season wonders" that proved incapable of giving many years service. The advent of semi-affordable lithium batteries changes the game, and it is technically possible, according to optimistic claims, to get the advertised 100K miles service, if the batteries really are capable of thousands of discharge cycles (50 miles x 2000 cycles = 100K miles, for instance). Keep in mind however, that up till recently, 500 cycles was considered excellent service. The question is, will this be tested and proven by a small start-up before YOU become the guinea pig, or are you OK maintaining a system with several hundred volts (or even 100-150 volts)?

Such a vehicle has a lot of mechanical drag (belt and motor brushes), and nothing out there is as streamlined as the Aptera, so you're not going to get the best equivalent mileage.

Mostly you're going to be dealing with a lot of parts falling off, hopefully not the ones under the car that your life depends on. As I understand the proposition, Duo will not be produced until they have a commitment (and deposits?) from enough buyers. This means there's no infrastructure in place now, or they'd be building cars and offering them for sale to the first comers. This means they don't REALLY know how well production units are going to work, and we can only hope that as problems emerge, production is delayed rather than shipping bad products to early customers.

You point out accurately that Corbin/Myers is one of the few with actual delivery experience. In my personal opinion, these former products were dangerous jokes, or I would have bought one. The Duo looks better, so it deserves a look IF they get to the point of delivering reliably. And my opinion about what is minimally acceptable isn't the same as someone else's of course. I drive a 2CV which is a death trap if someone T-bones me, but I know the car handles well and has the benefit of decades of successful use behind it, so I at least know the brakes and steering really work.

The THINK operation looks to be on much sounder footing, as a realistic alternative with actual real-world experience. The lithium battery upgrade makes it a viable candidate for giving good service. Like everything else, the price is discouraging.

Best of luck however to the Duo and the other ambitious start-ups.

Pat

[palmer_md]

Saab 9-3 ZE. Nice looking car. Not the best choice for efficiency, but a good choice for popular appeal.

YTCP_Ecl53E

Was to be released in 2010 (maybe) but now probably never to be seen since Saab is going under without a buyer in sight.

http://gm-volt.com/2009/12/19/this-week-at-saab-tuesday-debut-new-ev-friday-go-out-of-business/

[NmGfan]

Hi PatQ! Thanks for joining the EV conversations here.

If Myers actually begins shipping Duos, and you are willing to do your own inspection and maintenance, and you want an EV badly enough to risk driving a lightly-tested car, and can afford to spend the money, you should probably get one before they go broke. This is not a slam - this was sorta my plan for the Aptera. Are they all out of Sparrows?

An update for you on Myers and the Duo; they will be placing 10 beta units in the hands of drivers across the country during Feb-Mar 2010 time frame. That sort of implies an existing ability to produce vehicles with body panels and finished interiors. Since the Duo uses many of the drive train and suspension components from the NmG, it can easily be built using their existing assembly "line". A lot of folks have made the assertion that Myers doesn't have a clue about what they are doing and are on the verge of going broke; based mostly on the 'informed' notion that their low tech approach isn't viable in the marketplace. They've been selling the NmG for three years now and have just about sold all the remaining shells, but they can still be had for $29K with Li-ion batteries. While they were 'going broke', they managed to develop and tool-up for a new two seat model that expands on the seating capacity, storage space, and range. As for winter driving with a single rear drive wheel, these things are built and driven in the Akron Ohio area year round, snow included, with minimal problems according to Dana Myers, founder of Myers Motors. At this point they look like they can deliver a product for under $30K this June (2010), pricing can be lower as more units are ordered, but the vehicle will be produced regardless of the amount of pre-orders. Less vapor from these guys than ANYONE else and they aren't looking for money from uncle sugar to get *started*.

:happy0025:

[scottsim]

This conversion (talking about the 10KWh version) is starting to look pretty good to me...could handle most of my commuting and still be an efficient, comfortable hybrid for longer trips:

http://www.3prongpower.com/products.html

I will give Aptera and any other pure EV's a few months before jumping on this band-wagon.

[PatQ562]

OK, Corbin delivered 100-300 (?) Sparrows, Myers took over and improved the design somewhat (ie fixed first generation design problems) to yield the Nmg (30 delivered), and now we have the Duo coming soon. There is visible progress and persistence, which must be acknowledged. However, I had to look up other web sites to get a lot of specs Myers doesn't give.

There were several "brave" companies that made a few hundred vehicles in the 70's such as Citicar. They did not change the game.

The problem for my personal taste is that a car like the Aptera is "worth" $10-15K, and they were promising to sell it for $28K. Overpriced, but the final design would be a real car with shaft drive, sealed transmission, AC motor, lithium batteries, a composite-core body, ultimate streamlining and a wide stance for stability. It has the potential for zero maintenance, although one must expect some problems with a new platform. I would be tagged an enthusiast for overpaying, but I would have owned a true "car of the future" with the most efficient performance on the planet. This is important to me emotionally, as I will probably need some justification to defend my folly at some point when it has problems.

The Duo is far less sophisticated, yet costs $30K. It looks less stable, less streamlined, has a less efficient drivetrain, ordinary fiberglass construction, half the range, and has guaranteed maintenance requirements (belts and brushes) plus any unexpected problems pertaining to a homegrown platform. It is a "car of the future" in name only - except for the lithium battery, all of the key technologies are old hat. The average NEV has a much tidier design, and THEY sell for $5K-$7K. Personally, for $30K I would rather have a conversion built on a known compact-car chassis ($25K plus a $5K donor car should allow for a decent amount of labor, seeing as how the EV materials appear to be available for $10K-$15K). I do see ads for such operations, but the predictable range results are discouraging - to get real efficiency, you need a fully focused design effort from the ground up with everything optimized.

If the Duo streamlined its body, extended the front wheels outside the body to widen the stance without increasing frontal area, and adopted some kind of weatherproof shaft drive, it would get close to the Aptera formula, and start to get interesting to me.

I would agree the existing Duo has a better chance of becoming available the way things appear to be going with Aptera, so if this meets your needs, go for it. I've tinkered with belt-drive DC cars, and had poor results (drag, wear, and high battery currents at cruising speed), whereas the EV1 made my heart sing despite its problems. If the Aptera is history, I'd rather wait, and even pay somewhat more, for a real car company to issue something they stand behind, that can be financed, insured, etc.

Pat Q

[randyd]

This conversion (talking about the 10KWh version) is starting to look pretty good to me...could handle most of my commuting and still be an efficient, comfortable hybrid for longer trips:

http://www.3prongpower.com/products.html

I have to agree. That looks like it would (for a lot of money) give me an EV for most of my driving, but give me a hybrid for the long trips.

Do you have any clue how the passenger compartment is heated and cooled when operating in all-electric mode? Is there a heat pump? Or is engine coolant used to warm the passengers and an engine-mounted compressor used for cooling (which is the case for our 2002 Prius)?

[scottsim]

I have to agree. That looks like it would (for a lot of money) give me an EV for most of my driving, but give me a hybrid for the long trips.

Do you have any clue how the passenger compartment is heated and cooled when operating in all-electric mode? Is there a heat pump? Or is engine coolant used to warm the passengers and an engine-mounted compressor used for cooling (which is the case for our 2002 Prius)?

Definitely not cheap...34K for 2010, Gen 3, PriusV with most of the bells and whistles and another 11.5K for the conversion.

I am going to swing by a dealer in the next few days and ask some more questions, the 3ProngPower people have yet to respond to my query.

[rayfellow]

The video said that if you use the heater or air conditioner, the ice would start. So.. In ev mode only - no heat or air.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I think the base model 2010 Prius is around $22K-$23K?

I am also fairly sure that there are no mechanically driven accessories on the 3rd gen Prius. The power steering, A/C, etc. are electrically driven, IIANM. The cam may be the only mechanical "parasitic" load on the ICE.

[rayfellow]

Hi,

I think the base model 2010 Prius is around $22K-$23K?

I am also fairly sure that there are no mechanically driven accessories on the 3rd gen Prius. The power steering, A/C, etc. are electrically driven, IIANM. The cam may be the only mechanical "parasitic" load on the ICE.

You are right.. A/C is electric.. The heater requires the ICE.

I just talked to the folks at 3 Prong power. The Ford Escape Hybrid kit is in the beta test phase. In fact the salesman said if I had one and lived local, he suggested a special deal as a test vehicle. They are located in Berkeley Ca. He said they were 2 to 4 months away from having Ford kits available. He also said they would need to have a larger battery to provide the same range as the Prius kits, because of the heavier vehicle.

[NmGfan]

OK, Corbin delivered 100-300 (?) Sparrows, Myers took over and improved the design somewhat (ie fixed first generation design problems) to yield the Nmg (30 delivered), and now we have the Duo coming soon. There is visible progress and persistence, which must be acknowledged. However, I had to look up other web sites to get a lot of specs Myers doesn't give.

My sources at Myers Motors tell me 330 Sparrows were delivered between 1999 and 2004 and 50+ NmG's have been ordered and delivered between 2006 and 2009. It looks like Corbin managed to make 400 "shells" and parts before they shut down.
Beta test folks for the Duo have been selected and notified (there will be 10), so things are progressing.

:happy0025:

[wpatters]

I'd rather have an X-tracer than an Aptera anyway. Hope the price is right.

http://www.gadgets-reviews.com/e-tracer-x-tracer-cabin-bike.html

[scottsim]

3prongpower is recommending using a '08 or '09 Prius. They are not optimized for the 2010 version...Thus for around the 30K price of a new Prius, you could have a serious PHEV.

[rayfellow]

3prongpower is recommending using a '08 or '09 Prius. They are not optimized for the 2010 version...Thus for around the 30K price of a new Prius, you could have a serious PHEV.

Right.. What ever you would pay for a used Prius plus the cost of their system. Good to 50 mph or so, and depending on how much you want to pay for batteries - $3500 to $11,000. Ebay and Craigslist has a few older high mileage Prius in the $8 to $15K range.

I'm retired and have no daily driving pattern. However, an employed person with a set commute route could get just the system needed to get to work and back without using the ICE - unless you turn on the heater - or go on the freeway... then you're using some ICE power.

[SlowSRT4]

3prongpower is recommending using a '08 or '09 Prius. They are not optimized for the 2010 version...Thus for around the 30K price of a new Prius, you could have a serious PHEV.
Seems like it would be a bit piggish to me. Prius already weighs 3050 lbs, and this proposed 3prongpower system adds about 400 lbs according to their website. At this price and specs you could just get a Chevy Volt, arguably a better all-around vehicle, for maybe only slightly more money (remember that the Volt comes with a $7500 tax credit). Plus the Prius looks ugly, whereas the Volt does not. :character0022:

[scottsim]

Came very close to a deal today on an '09 Prius...drove really well, and was impressed with the tech...I have no problems with the look, just really wishing that Toyota had seen the need to bring a plug-in of reasonable battery capacity to market itself.

[Carnut1420]

any forum admin is watching, I'll advice that I think "Competing Cars" should be a forum category instead of a thread! Thanks a lot....

[KarenRei]

It already is. Should I lock this thread to force people to start new threads rather than post them all in this one thread?

[SEGsby]

Yeah, probably. Change is good...

And it looks like we might as well keep talking about other EVs, as there is still no sign of an end of year Aptera prototype. :(