Fambro Kit Car/Forum Feedback

[DanD]

So now we know that the psychopathic CEO has struck again and it's time to move on and look to the future. Ideally that would be a future where such CEOs are barbecued and served with a side of salad, but that is another discussion.

Here are some possibilities I see:

1. Aptera pretends to keep going, Wilbur and his henchmen bleed dry the remaining resources until bankruptcy, which they will conveniently blame on the competition and bad market timing. A few vehicles may actually make it out before the end.

2. A major manufacturer buys Aptera and enters production. This would be my preference, as it would put a vehicle with good performance and outstanding efficiency in the hands of the most people as quickly as possible.

3. Someone (Steve?) sells a purpose-built kit-car chassis, which the rest of us can complete.

Fambro's Aptera was inspired in more ways than one by aviation. There is a thriving industry of kit planes - http://eaa.org. EV systems are relatively simple. I've made one before, I can make one again. I don't want to convert a nasty, heavy aerodynamic brick to an EV, nor do I want to make a chassis from scratch. I see no reason why a kit car wouldn't do rather well. Granted, it would be a much smaller, niche market, but I would prefer this to seeing Steve's dream die. Nothing else coming from a major manufacturer quite embraced efficiency as well as Steve's Dream.

I'll put down a deposit for one now, which would presumably be available beyond the borders of the accursed land of the vane and vapid, otherwise known as Kalifornia.

DanD

Update by KarenRei: To those who I may have missed, I've PMed everyone on this forum who has made at least a couple dozen posts and has visited within the past several days requesting their thoughts on not only the topic above, but also what Aptera was and what it has become. Please add your thoughts below. Thanks!

[Sapphire Dragon]

So now we know that the psychopathic CEO has struck again and it's time to move on and look to the future. Ideally that would be a future where such CEOs are barbecued and served with a side of salad, but that is another discussion. My thoughts exactly.

Here are some possibilities I see:

1. Aptera pretends to keep going, Wilbur and his henchmen bleed dry the remaining resources until bankruptcy, which they will conveniently blame on the competition and bad market timing. A few vehicles may actually make it out before the end.

2. A major manufacturer buys Aptera and enters production. This would be my preference, as it would put a vehicle with good performance and outstanding efficiency in the hands of the most people as quickly as possible.

3. Someone (Steve?) sells a purpose-built kit-car chassis, which the rest of us can complete. I think 2. and 3. would be the best case scenarios. Hopefully 2. happens, and even more hopefully, they're friends with Steve and when the other company buys Aptera, they promptly roundhouse kick Wilbur and co. so far away from Aptera that they never think of killing another company again. And even more hopefully, they get Steve back in the company and this all turns out to be ok. Of course this is wishful thinking, but hey.

[randyd]

I'll sign up for a car kit. I was going to treat the 2e as a kind of kit anyway, upgrading systems (like batteries) over time as technology rolled on.

[byplug]

So now we know that the psychopathic CEO has struck again and it's time to move on and look to the future. Ideally that would be a future where such CEOs are barbecued and served with a side of salad, but that is another discussion.

Here are some possibilities I see:

1. Aptera pretends to keep going, Wilbur and his henchmen bleed dry the remaining resources until bankruptcy, which they will conveniently blame on the competition and bad market timing. A few vehicles may actually make it out before the end.

2. A major manufacturer buys Aptera and enters production. This would be my preference, as it would put a vehicle with good performance and outstanding efficiency in the hands of the most people as quickly as possible.

3. Someone (Steve?) sells a purpose-built kit-car chassis, which the rest of us can complete.

Fambro's Aptera was inspired in more ways than one by aviation. There is a thriving industry of kit planes - http://eaa.org. EV systems are relatively simple. I've made one before, I can make one again. I don't want to convert a nasty, heavy aerodynamic brick to an EV, nor do I want to make a chassis from scratch. I see no reason why a kit car wouldn't do rather well. Granted, it would be a much smaller, niche market, but I would prefer this to seeing Steve's dream die. Nothing else coming from a major manufacturer quite embraced efficiency as well as Steve's Dream.

I'll put down a deposit for one now, which would presumably be available beyond the borders of the accursed land of the vane and vapid, otherwise known as Kalifornia.

DanD

I agree with DanD - a Fambro kit and even prior to the Eva body is great with me! My original post link below:

http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?p=38324#post38324

[IanO]

I agree that option 3 seems like the best (I know I'd buy and Aptera kit car). The experimental license that goes along with kit cars is *much* more lenient in terms of crash safety and emissions, so you can cut a lot of corners. Impossible though: I doubt Steve retained the rights to the Aptera designs.

In my opinion, the best option is that personnel are hired back when the government loan finally rolls in. This event does make me wonder whether they have been lying to us about only requiring the loan to tool up for mass production.

This whole disaster goes to show that they needed to "release early, release often" instead of using the Big Car Company strategy of perfecting the product before an initial release. I bet more than half the folks holding a place in line would have jumped at *any* Aptera instead of the perfect Aptera with heavy windows and giant cup holders.

[G-Jet]

"rights to the aptera designs".

What rights?

3 wheels? aerodynamic? Look at the Evinnovations Wave (http://www.evinnovations.com/products/cars) a Total aptera rip-off and they are taking reservations! what a ugly copy however. I doubt Aptera is rushing to sue them.

But whatever...

G

[KarenRei]

These sort of matters are where lawyers come in. ;)

If Steve chose to, I doubt there's any way Aptera could stop him from making *a* car. I don't know how different from the 2e it would have to be. My suspicions say, "not that much", although IANAL.

[virtualeric]

Perhaps 'boat guy' and 'inventor guy' figured out there's more profit in selling an Aptera kit than assembling Apteras and selling them. I think they're smart enough to have figured that out.

I've heard similar talk, and thinking about it, it makes sense that big auto companies would never manufacture a low maintenance, low complexity, high efficiency electric or hybrid, with outstanding longevity. The profit margin on something like that has to be so low it isn't worth the investment in the assembly infrastructure, "dealerships", marketing etc.

[DonC]

So now we know that the psychopathic CEO has struck again and it's time to move on and look to the future. Ideally that would be a future where such CEOs are barbecued and served with a side of salad, but that is another discussion.
This entire process is the most likely for a startup. Founders do not usually possess the skill set needed to get the business up and running. Getting asked to leave the company you started is the price you pay for involving venture funds in the business. It's never pretty but there are usually two sides to the story. Sometimes the professional management is right. Sometimes the founder is right. But rarely do they agree on what happened. I could probably dig up a post from about a year ago which laid out that this scenario -- new CEO comes in, finds product not nearly far along as promised, needs to raise more money, founder is asked to leave -- was likely to happen but what would be the point?

When looking for "bad guys" and talking about psychotic CEOs, just remember that this was doubtless a board decision not a CEO decision. Ultimately the venture funds pick the CEO because its their money at risk, and in our system whose money is at stake is invariably the most important factor.

[KarenRei]

You know what? I've been thinking about this all day, and... well, time for me to stop keeping my mouth shut.

I don't care who makes it.

I want a car where the focus is on efficiency and safety, not changing the door design. If there's a choice between having the original door with a split window or even no roll-down windows vs. getting a lengthy door redesign to add a couple inches but compromise the structural integrity of the doors and compromise the aerodynamics, give me the split window! If for some strange reason I can't get something large through it? I know how to open a door! I don't give a rat's arse how many Big Gulp cupholders "EVA" comes with. You know the last time I bought a Big Gulp? If you do, tell me, because I certainly can't remember *ever* having bought one. I'm certainly not the fast food crowd that they keep tailoring things to.

In short, I want a car like what was introduced early on. I've sat around and defended them as they've imposed delay after delay trying to mass-market the car (alienating their *actual* market), hoping that they'd get *something* out. I've tried to defend them to everyone, tried to stop the bleed, because I've believed in this company. But that's over. I'm the last person who one would ever expect to say this, but: if Aptera won't do it, and someone like Steve starts a company to do it, I absolutely will drop my reservation -- and widespread advocacy for Aptera -- and switch over to them.

Seriously, how much can they not know their market? The people waiting for this car are people who *want* a revolutionary new vehicle. These are not people in the market for a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Automakers have repeatedly acted like people like me don't exist: people who care about form over function, who want the aerodynamics engineers to get the first go at the shape rather than the stylists, people who *want* something different. And when we finally get one -- *one* -- serious company trying to do this, what happens? They stall and change the vehicle until it gets to the point where they just throw the people who came up with the car out the door. I now half expect the car to come out with a bike rack on the roof and spinners on the wheel pods.

Will somebody please quit focusing on what we're *supposed* to want on a car and listen to what we *actually* want on a car? What brought us here in the first place?

They got 4,000 pre-orders in, what, 6-9 months? Restricted to *only California*? With minimal marketing efforts, from a startup company that hadn't produced anything? That's freaking amazing. Anyone who thinks that these people pre-ordered because they wanted Big Gulp cupholders and wanted to wait a year and a half for the doors' aero to be hurt and the structural integrity compromised is an idiot. How many orders have then gotten since everything started getting stalled and changed? Negative 1000 or so? Yeah, we're just pre-orders; we don't represent everyone who will ever buy the car. But even they don't care about us, we're the same sort of people that are going to buy the car in the future.

Delays for safety reasons? Sure. Delays for reliability? Sure. But delays to make it into a more conventional car? Ugh. If Steve makes an actual Aptera and Aptera doesn't, you better believe I'll switch over in an instant. "Aptera" is just a name. It's the vehicle that matters.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the communications management...

Sorry for being so blunt, but I had to get this off my chest.

[esmith]

These sort of matters are where lawyers come in. ;)

If Steve chose to, I doubt there's any way Aptera could stop him from making *a* car. I don't know how different from the 2e it would have to be. My suspicions say, "not that much", although IANAL.

It all depends on who has more money. If Aptera is purchased by, say, Ford, Steve does not stand a chance because Ford can finance the litigation forever. If they try to sail on their own, it's different.

I recall that a patent on automated composite panel production technology is involved. The exact legal status of the patent will matter a lot.

[SEGsby]

...

Sorry for being so blunt, but I had to get this off my chest.


And I'm glad you did. :)

[palmer_md]

You know what? I've been thinking about this all day, and... well, time for me to stop keeping my mouth shut.

I don't care who makes it.

I want a car where the focus is on efficiency and safety, not changing the door design. If there's a choice between having the original door with a split window or even no roll-down windows vs. getting a lengthy door redesign to add a couple inches but compromise the structural integrity of the doors and compromise the aerodynamics, give me the split window! If for some strange reason I can't get something large through it? I know how to open a door! I don't give a rat's arse how many Big Gulp cupholders "EVA" comes with. You know the last time I bought a Big Gulp? If you do, tell me, because I certainly can't remember *ever* having bought one. I'm certainly not the fast food crowd that they keep tailoring things to.

In short, I want a car like what was introduced early on. I've sat around and defended them as they've imposed delay after delay trying to mass-market the car (alienating their *actual* market), hoping that they'd get *something* out. I've tried to defend them to everyone, tried to stop the bleed, because I've believed in this company. But that's over. I'm the last person who one would ever expect to say this, but: if Aptera won't do it, and someone like Steve starts a company to do it, I absolutely will drop my reservation -- and widespread advocacy for Aptera -- and switch over to them.

Seriously, how much can they not know their market? The people waiting for this car are people who *want* a revolutionary new vehicle. These are not people in the market for a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Automakers have repeatedly acted like people like me don't exist: people who care about form over function, who want the aerodynamics engineers to get top-bidding rather than the stylists, people who *want* something different. And when we finally get one -- *one* -- serious company trying to do this, what happens? They stall and change the vehicle until it gets to the point where they just throw the people who came up with the car out the door. I now half expect the car to come out with a bike rack on the roof and spinners on the wheel pods.

Will somebody please quit focusing on what we're *supposed* to want on a car and listen to what we *actually* want on a car? What brought us here in the first place?

They got 4,000 pre-orders in, what, 6-9 months? Restricted to *only California*? With minimal marketing efforts, from a startup company that hadn't produced anything? That's freaking amazing. Anyone who thinks that these people pre-ordered because they wanted Big Gulp cupholders and wanted to wait a year and a half for the doors' aero to be hurt and the structural integrity compromised is an idiot. How many orders have then gotten since everything started getting stalled and changed? Negative 1000 or so? Yeah, we're just pre-orders; we don't represent everyone who will ever buy the car. But even they you don't care about us, we're the same sort of people that are going to buy the car in the future.

Delays for safety reasons? Sure! Delays for reliability? Sure. But delays to make it into a more conventional car? Ugh. If Steve makes an actual Aptera and Aptera doesn't, you better believe I'll switch over in an instant.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the communications management...

Sorry for being so blunt, but I had to get this off my chest.


Yeah. I feel the same, and I'm glad to see you feel like this. I think the company totally lost direction after Sept 2008.

[Holz]

Normally I would probably not offer an opinion on something like this, but in response to Karen's PM request...
I am on the 2h reservation list because I have been interested in using a vehicle like Aptera for longer hauls. At this point, with the worse than awful communication from Aptera, I have little hope that the 2e, let alone the 2h, will see production. I was really been taken by (and committed to) the Aptera's style and the fact that it could be the most efficient production vehicle ever. But given the delays and lack of information, I have been discussing some of the other less than desirable options out there with my wife because it does look like we are going to have to go in that direction for our future personal transportation. It's a shame because the Aptera did hold such promise...and I can only hope that my assumptions about the vehicle's future are wrong and the company can survive what appears to be some bad management decisions right now.

[IanO]

I want a car where the focus is on efficiency and safety, not changing the door design.

[and a lot more candid criticism]

Hear, hear! The original Aptera 2e design was my ideal vehicle, even without roll down windows. I'm sorry they didn't produce it in order to get some cash flow, exposure, and gain much-needed road testing and manufacturing experience.

I agree with Karen. The lesson to learn is that niche marketing may have been more effective for a ground-breaking design than mass marketing, just like the Tesla. Maybe they should have planned for a smaller early production run at a higher price ($40-60K) for the rabid early adopters. *Then* they could work on mainstream models and price reduction through manufacturing engineering.

Oh well. At least Steve Fambro got a part of his dream realized. He got to commute to work for several years in the most progressive vehicle on the planet, his own brainchild.

[javan]

I have quietly begun to look for alternatives. I love the original aptera design, the commitment to safety, and the excitement of the project. I hate the communications and the endless delay. Jim

[Tamerlin]

Guys, the Aptera is just a vehicle.

I've seen no independent verification (news sources) about what's been accused of happening within the Aptera company. I've meet the CEO, and he seemed like a normal person. He reports to a board, who can sack him if they believe he has gone too far.

I'm simply looking for the next generatation efficient car/vehicle. At 300 mpg+ the Aptera fit the bill. If the company implodes I'll get the next best option. This is normal business.

[lapwing]

I would buy a "glider" kit in a heartbeat. Front & rear suspension, motor, inverter, steering body, doors, glass, brakes, maybe even seats. Yea!

I would love a project car. The electrical/battery instrumentation and general geek-ification I can handle. Fit and finish I can do. Batteries and BMS I can do. Hell if I could get an Aptera kit for around $12 000 I would happily invest the 1000-1500 hours of happy building required.

[turbo wing]

Well said I agree 100%, your right, look at how much momentum they got going in the beginning, Aptera should capitalize on that huge first round of enthusiasm

[futura]

They got 4,000 pre-orders in, what, 6-9 months? Restricted to *only California*? With minimal marketing efforts, from a startup company that hadn't produced anything? That's freaking amazing. Anyone who thinks that these people pre-ordered because they wanted Big Gulp cupholders...

It was a dream. As much as anything else that's what Fambro etal "invented". Sure, kind of a nerd herd dream but hey, we have money and automotive wishes beyond floating a Prius to Ikea and back. Conjuring such desire is like spinning gold and I think the Detroit crowd didn't respect what they had been given.
I checked out the Nissan LEAF today and the juxtaposition of emotions was striking. My teenage son, who sat in, and hammered on and imagined driving the Typ-2e PP6 at the April showing, viewed the LEAF with indifference. He said "yeah, it seems pretty nice, but it's no Aptera.
I was pleasantly surprised by the LEAF, but it's still something of a corporate poem.

I liked the PP6 because of the FWD. I felt the improved weight distribution and traction would make the Aptera a blast to drive. I totally agree that the window thing and EVA were a waste of precious months. If someone offers me a PP6 clone within 6 months of my deposit then I'll drop 50% on them up front. Kit-car? Sure.


p.s. KarenRei, thanks for starting this topic. This news has been a kick in the gut; probably +1 for you.

[Apt3448]

What are they thinking over there? Well, next someone complains about how they treat their reservation holders, apparently they treat you with as much regards as their founder.... I don't know the details of course, but this makes me really sad. It seems that Paul is eager to mass-market what would (will?) always be a niche vehicle. And then they can't pull it off. What would have been so wrong with a slow roll-out of the earlier version? I would have bought the earlier model in a heartbeat, windows be damned. I would have been happy to open the door at every parking garage. I loved the idea, i loved the corky plus/minus signs on the pedal, not so the sleek EVA irrelevance. Many of us here would have been in 7th heaven to test that earlier puppy. They could have sold at least a 1000 of those, making enough money to finance further developments. Delay for safety is fine, but this seems dumb, dumb, dumb. This smells like missed opportunity. And a great opportunity it was.
Beyond repair? We'll have to wait and see, but I have never been more pessimistic about progress than at this time. I trusted the company because I trusted the main people. What are we left with? Wannabe H Ford types? I feel frustrated and disappointed. My car is getting old and funky, and I really don't want another ICE...

[Dolphyn]

I think any panic is premature, since there's a lot we don't know yet. We haven't heard what the company has to say, and we haven't heard what Steve has to say. So I say, give them a chance to be heard, before making assumptions and accusations.

[lapwing]

...... I recall that a patent on automated composite panel production technology is involved. The exact legal status of the patent will matter a lot.

I doubt the patent (if there is one could be defended) their vaccumn resin infusion process is pretty standard boatbuilding practice (I have done a few). Any special "variation" is highly unlikely to stand up to challenge as patentable.

On the other hand the shape of the Aptera as drawn is probably a registered and defendable original copyright work that, like the original Coke bottle or the Aptera logo would stand up as theirs alone.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Normally I would probably not offer an opinion on something like this, but in response to Karen's PM request...

...and I can only hope that my assumptions about the vehicle's future are wrong and the company can survive what appears to be some bad management decisions right now.
Same here about responding.

And honestly, I care about both the car and the company. That's one of the things that made Aptera stand out to me.

Sure, maybe communications may not have been outstanding, but these people were just starting an entire company on a revolutionary product. There's no question in my mind that they had lots of questions, most probably questions from people who never read the website (or don't read everything on the page before flying to their emails and sending them a question that's been answered already). I think their not-so-up-to-par communications can be explained at least somewhat by that and the fact that it had a select staff. I never had communications issues with them. And I still have lots of patience with them because they're a fledgling company. Even when it's not just starting, any small company can be prone to delayed communications because of the hoards of people who don't read websites.

With the car, I do agree that they may have wanted to get the car out a little bit sooner, but at the same time, they were improving things like headroom and exit/enter space for the doors. I think they were trying to tailor to as many people as possible before they released the vehicle. They wanted their first vehicle to be exactly what everyone expected and more. There is a line that needed to be drawn as far as the development went, so as not to unnecessarily delay the vehicle when people were eagerly waiting to get it. I'm not sure at this point where that line should have been, though. I think everything else about this car was fine.

Hopefully, this is just a stage in the Aptera development. Hopefully Steve and co. will be able to return- if not through Wilbur, through another company friendly with Steve that buys it out and returns it to Steve (far fetched, but hey, it's possible) or has it join the company as a branch with Steve still in control. I personally will continue to stay with Aptera, even through these unfortunate events that are unfolding. I believe in the dream Steve had, and I'm sticking with it. At the moment, I haven't decided if I will still get the car if Steve is gone for good and Wilbur takes over. I love both the company and the car- if Steve and co. are gone, it will be a huge blow to not only the company but also its supporters- including me. But hopefully I won't have to make that decision, which is why I'm putting it off. I'm waiting to see how this turns out in the very end before I start making serious decisions about it. I hope for the best out of this, at my very core. And I won't bail out just because of hard times.

It's definitely different from the rest of you, because you all are out and working and are needing to make serious decisions about the car faster. But because I'm not driving, and I don't have to get my own car for a good while, I have more time on my hands and more patience to wait for the Aptera. (Not saying at all that you all aren't patient- I'm just saying that since I'm not even driving yet, I can probably afford to wait things out longer than others can). That's my personal opinion, to heart, about all of this. I will wait, and continue to wait. I rarely get interested in something and drop it just as fast. I'm sticking with this to the end.

[rayfellow]

OK.. I feel like a fool.. I was sure the core team was smart and would avoid the cash flow rocks.. Gad, was I ever wrong.

I wanted to see the Aptera happen because - like the high mileage cars of the 60's (vw etc) it would set a new standard of what a people moving, freeway speed machine can do. Like Janice Joplin said.. 'Oh lord won't you buy me an Aptera, my friends all drive Prius, I must make amends'. My sister and brother drive Prius's.. me? an old Honda. In reality - while my mpg is 27 and there's is 50 - my cost per mile is less than theirs, because of lower operational costs (Lic, Insurance, tune up costs etc.) But high mileage gives them bragging rights! I wanted an Aptera to announce to the world that I am committed to reduced consumption.. and having fun and bragging rights too.

The wind went out of my sails when another person on the Forum said that the big auto makers would not build a machine this efficient, and trouble free because it would not be a big profit center. However.. I do believe that the cat is out of the bag, and it will get built. The prototype Aptera has shown us that a 23 hp engine can propel a vehicle at 100-mph. We saw it.. it happened.. where is it?.. we want it.

The first person/company that gets this airodynamic, light machine on the road is going to be rewarded in two ways... 1) saving the planet of gobs of pollution. 2) If not rich.. then famous.

I will continue to drive my old Honda.. until a really different efficient machine is available.. and it's not a VOLT... It's got to be different by a magnitude of 2. 1/2 the weight, 1/2 the drag, and twice the mileage. It's a bird, it's a plane... Nope - it's an Aptera.

[KarenRei]

But hopefully I won't have to make that decision, which is why I'm putting it off. I'm waiting to see how this turns out in the very end before I start making serious decisions about it.

I recommend everyone else do the same. It won't take long before the info comes out into the open, I'm sure. Where our money goes is the only piece of leverage we, as buyers, have.

[Sapphire Dragon]

The first person/company that gets this airodynamic, light machine on the road is going to be rewarded in two ways... 1) saving the planet of gobs of pollution. 2) If not rich.. then famous.

It's a bird, it's a plane... Nope - it's an Aptera. That's true, about the reward... and nice classic saying there.

[danieloneil01]

I hate the idea of this car not coming into fruition which almost seems inevitable. I usually (lately) ok lately being months on end of being negative about Aptera but as a company and how it's managed. Most of all how it's managed or isn't in getting information out to it's potential buyers not only in Commiefornia but around the country.

Sure the economy is in the toilet but you've had so long to get shit in order. And yet months go by and no word from Aptera to it's future customers. There' so many chances too, but it seemed most of the time you were more interested in getting in front of the camera to show off the car, to let media ride in the car yet distanced your self from your fans and again your future customers.




I pray Aptera gets through this and the people up top that were in charge are let go before the worst happens.

[Sapphire Dragon]

There' so many chances too, but it seemed most of the time you were more interested in getting in front of the camera to show off the car, to let media ride in the car yet distanced your self from your fans and again your future customers.
In a way, personally, I don't think that was distancing themselves. That was marketing to the highest amount of people. They know about this forum- they know that any video of the Aptera from the media and any article about it are snapped up like lightning and reposted here for all of us to see. I think they trusted their customers to follow up with this vehicle along with everyone else- so they can give more info to their current customers and also bring in new interested potential buyers.

[LTLFTcomposite]

With the company falling apart internally about the only scenario I can think of that has them succeeding goes something like this:

1) They manage to deliver say, 50-100 cars
2) The cars work reasonably well
3) Iran mines the Strait of Hormuz
4) Media attention whips up a demand frenzy in the face of $20 gas
5) Somebody who actually knows what they are doing buys the company

Even that scenario doesn't seem all that plausible. Other mfrs would just rip off the ideas and come out with their own product.

[danieloneil01]

I typed a long reply but was logged out so I cut the bullshit out.


People who have deposits DON'T CANCEL THEM. It's not going anywhere. If enough people cancel then you can pretty much guarantee Aptera will fold.

Now how I feel.

I dogged the company that is making the Aptera because they deserved it. To many paycheck collectors and not enough visionaries up top in management. To eager to show off the Aptera to media and not giving it's future customers UPDATES. You're so quick to lay off people yet none of them could throw us a bone ONCE A MONTH!?!?!?

I may have trolled a bit lately but it was deserving. The people up top SUCK.


Thanks for giving me the equivalent of blue balls. And I hope they can find people who don't see it as just a job but are passionate about what this car could (have) been.



Maybe we'll get lucky and Honda buys Aptera and does it the right way.

[Sapphire Dragon]

To eager to show off the Aptera to media and not giving it's future customers UPDATES. You're so quick to lay off people yet none of them could throw us a bone ONCE A MONTH!?!?!?
They were giving updates. The Plug-In section of the website was being updated with new prototype changes based on polls right up until this started happening. And I'm sure they were probably very busy with a lot of things- product updates, emails, designing, plans, etc. with a limited staff. Ok, maybe once a month could have been preferable, but I personally cut them a lot of slack because of the nature of their product and the number of staff on-hand to write updates. This firing thing was most probably slowly happening all the while- not just with important people. It may have started with the people who gave/wrote the update newsletters.

[DanD]

DonC - I've heard this argument before, but it sounds to me like a board and executive staff justifying maximizing short-term profit at all costs.

Those of us who still consider ourselves human are not amused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation

[esmith]

In a way, personally, I don't think that was distancing themselves. That was marketing to the highest amount of people. They know about this forum- they know that any video of the Aptera from the media and any article about it are snapped up like lightning and reposted here for all of us to see. I think they trusted their customers to follow up with this vehicle along with everyone else- so they can give more info to their current customers and also bring in new interested potential buyers.

I don't think that was the case. It was simply the case of many people not doing their jobs in the face of looming "reorganization".

Here's an example. They have a blog, http://aptera.com/blog. You're supposed to be able to leave comments. Right now, you can't, because their CAPTCHA is broken. I sent them an email informing them of that sometime late October. I even got a confirmation from their client relations rep.

As of today, CAPTCHA is still broken.

Essentially, I get the feeling that the only people doing any kind of work lately were PW and Emily the client relations rep.

[Sapphire Dragon]

As of today, CAPTCHA is still broken.

Essentially, I get the feeling that the only people doing any kind of work lately were Fambro and Emily the client relations rep.
This may have been because they were busy with things directly relating to the Aptera and they didn't have time to fix something on their website. However, you may be right in any case. I think Wilbur probably had something to do with it, too.

[palmer_md]

The company (Aptera) seemed to be rolling along nicely until August 2008. We'd all seen the one prototype, and we knew about the work being done on the windows and front wheel drive since Jan 2008, but we'd yet to see it in prototype form. Anyhow they missed the October 2008 deadline, but I was not surprised, nor did I think it was a terrifically bad idea. They only just got the front wheel drive prototype completed and had not run it through a battery of tests. A year do do all this did not seem unreasonable. Up to August 2008 we were getting newletters and infomation about once a month. Maybe not every month, but nearly every one, and there was information coming from them in other forms besides the newsletter, so it seemed everyone was pleased with the progress and news from Aptera. After Sept 2008 the news only came in spurts, and then halted completely. Amazing how this timing coincides with two guys from Saleen who specialize in marketing/communications arriving on the scene. How exactly does marketing stop once you hire some marketing/commuications guys? The lack of information did not bother me so much at first because I assumed it was for "keeping the cards close to the vest". I became concerned when we never saw any real progress on the vehicle prototypes. They should have had a few more built and we'd surely have seen some spy photos if they were doing anything. Their summer tour of California consisted of just two of the planned 6 stops in 2009. Then we start getting wind of some holdups due to redesign of the color scheme of the interior and some other changes that relate to "mainstreaming" of the car. The car was not intended nor marketed as "mainstream" when it was debuted in 2007. I put my deposit on the car in mid December 2007 precisely because the car was not mainstream, but took some engineering ideas to the limit. I loved the extreme efficiency along with concern for safety. The company had a clear vision of where it was going and who would be along for the ride. Since the managment change in 2008 the shift has been to try and make the car mainstream and this has created nothing but delays. The car is quickly loosing it core purpose. The size of the cabin is getting huge, it has become squarish in order to include windows, and the smooth lines were lost to incorporate the windows as well. I agree with everyone who has said that if they build the last prototype car without the rolldown windows I jump right at the opportunity. I think the company has lost its direction and is trying to build a car for the masses. Keep the 2e super efficient, and make the 4e, or whatevery you want to call it, the car for the masses!! I don't know if Paul and Marques are to blame for this or if they were only doing what the board has asked them to do since they were brought in, but what I can say is that the company seems to have gotten lost since they were brought in. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but thats my outsiders view of the situation.

[Apt3448]

The company (Aptera) seemed to be rolling along nicely until August 2008. (...) Amazing how this timing coincides with two guys from Saleen who specialize in marketing/communications arriving on the scene. (...) I put my deposit on the car in mid December 2007 precisely because the car was not mainstream, but took some engineering ideas to the limit. (...) The car is quickly loosing it core purpose. (...) I don't know if Paul and Marques are to blame for this or if they were only doing what the board has asked them to do since they were brought in, but what I can say is that the company seems to have gotten lost since they were brought in.

Well put, my sentiments exactly.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Since the managment change in 2008 the shift has been to try and make the car mainstream and this has created nothing but delays. The car is quickly loosing it core purpose. The size of the cabin is getting huge, it has become squarish in order to include windows, and the smooth lines were lost to incorporate the windows as well. I agree with everyone who has said that if they build the last prototype car without the rolldown windows I jump right at the opportunity. I think the company has lost its direction and is trying to build a car for the masses. Keep the 2e super efficient, and make the 4e, or whatevery you want to call it, the car for the masses!! I don't know if Paul and Marques are to blame for this or if they were only doing what the board has asked them to do since they were brought in, but what I can say is that the company seems to have gotten lost since they were brought in. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but thats my outsiders view of the situation. I noticed that as well- the cabin design was more square and I wasn't so sure of how that could affect the initial design. I was fine with the rolling window updates though, because that's standard in cars and it's something you would probably want to have in a car before you get it out in the market.

Wilbur probably had something (everything) to do with the losing of focus. They were doing fine, until that fateful day Wilbur started making his decisions...

And that wasn't harsh at all, that was your own personal opinion.

[Matthijs]

I am not that good of a writer but I will try my best to do my say. I am here since 01-05-2008. I was intrigued by the Aptera vehicle from the first second. Hearing Steve talk about the Aptera I thought "This is it, this is the vehicle I would like to own above anything else". It was like someone out there finally knew people like us existed, and had the power to materialize a vehicle that would fulfill all the needs of eco-minded drivers. Let the automotive world see that there is another way.

I feel the same way like many people in this thread. I feel disappointment, why is this happening? It just feels like we are being left in the cold and have to go back to business us usual.

[kerbe]

Tucker. It's Tucker all over again.

I think the real frustration is our impotence -- we WANT to care and we'd LIKE to help, but the company has shut us out. Any 13 year old kid could update a website -- hell, there are many of us on the forum who'd do it for free -- but Aptera seems to have neither interest in nor concern for keeping the public informed about the development of this vehicle.

Will I ever see an Aptera on the road? I dunno. Will I ever get to own one? I doubt it. Is the Nissan Leaf ugly as sin? You betcha. Will this long-snout Versa make it in the marketplace? Probably. And why? Because it's there.

[Sapphire Dragon]

I am not that good of a writer but I will try my best to do my say.

I feel the same way like many people in this thread. I feel disappointment, why is this happening? It just feels like we are being left in the cold and have to go back to business us usual.
Sometimes short and sweet is the best way to express things.

Yes, I feel similar... but I have hope for the Aptera that it will come back from this unfortunate turn of events. The only point that we will be left in the cold is if this entire company and car collapses, none of which has happened and that hopefully will never happen.

[Rat]

The reports of a big shakeup at Aptera are of course not a good thing; rather disturbing in fact. Even so, I am not devoted to founders or personalities. I agree with the poster who said it is a product, not a cause. Since I came in a bit later than many of you (2e# over 1000 ) I haven't (since the push back of dates from 2008 to 2009) expected to get a shot at the 2e until late 2010 or early 2011. For all I know that could still happen and it might be a great vehicle. My current car is running fine, but has several irritating little things wrong with it, and just passed the 100K miles mark. I'm ready to buy but I've gotten used to not having a CD player or other music source and a moon roof I can't open, etc. Fortunately the local library still carries audiobooks on tape. In short, I was prepared to hold out and still can, at least for now. I think I will know long before that approximate Aptera offer date in my head whether or not to buy something else. The problem for me is that there still isn't a good EV alternative out there to buy. Tesla: way too expensive and too and impractical. Fisker Karma: ditto. NMG: too small and limited. Volt and Leaf: possibles but not here yet and probably not for a long time, plus the Volt is really a plug-in hybrid not an EV. Insight and Prius and Fusion: maybe, if I give up on waiting for an EV. And so on. I certainly wouldn't buy a kit car.

I think all the wailing, cursing, and teeth-gnashing is both premature and unproductive, but if it helps you to vent, go ahead. I'll just keep my $500 in and go with watchful waiting.

[aptera1213]

You forgot the iMIEV

if steve makes a pp6, I'll buy that
if aptera makes a pp6, I'll buy that

If aptera waits 2 years to keep making the aptera fit for the masses, well I will have something else

aptera was always going to be a niche car

so how does aptera survive? Or how do we get a aptera type car?

1. Aptera sells the car to Honda or Toyota.
2 Honda or Toyota surprisingly keep the car unique and true to form
3. Steve and company get new backing and make their vision of he car (maybe getting best buy to be co-owner)

4. Aptera surprises us and actually get a car out in June



June is likely the cut off

by June we will be able to put deposits on the leaf, and maybe the iMIEV soon after

[Sapphire Dragon]

1. Aptera sells the car to Honda or Toyota.
2 Honda or Toyota surprisingly keep the car unique and true to form
3. Steve and company get new backing and make their vision of he car (maybe getting best buy to be co-owner)

4. Aptera surprises us and actually get a car out in June

Hopefully, 4. is the one that will happen. 1-3. are good alternatives... much more preferable than the company disappearing.

[evdriver]

I once had a sales rep in New York who told me that "all business is about relationships." At the time I though she was crazy. I had designs, patents, employees, a physical factory. That was my business, not the relationships. After a few years in the business I came to realize she was 100% right. Every business runs off of its relationships. A bunch of raw material and designs sitting in a warehouse is not a business. It's healthy relationships between the management and the staff, between the staff and the press, between the staff and the suppliers, between the company and the customers, between the executives and the funders. This web of relationships is what animates and gives life to a successful company. As an early reservation holder I was encouraged by Aptera's focus on their product and their customers. With a very small staff they would answer emails, put out videos, and make an effort to update us all on their progress as they had time. I felt included and felt their relationship to me was genuine and healthy. Heck, Fambro even showed us his daughter playing the the passenger seat. Since Sept 2008 their relationship with me has withered and died. They like to trot me and all the other reservation holders out when the media comes around to show that they have real world support. However, beyond that, they simply don't seem to care about keeping the relationship going. I fear that if all their other relationships are this bad, Aptera is in for some deep sledding. If you're reading this thread Aptera, a word of advice: Focus on the relationships....it's what all business is about. Get to know your reservation holder. They hold the key to your success. You could argue that without them, Aptera would not be here today.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Since Sept 2008 their relationship with me has withered and died. They like to trot me and all the other reservation holders out when the media comes around to show that they have real world support. However, beyond that, they simply don't seem to care about keeping the relationship going. I fear that if all their other relationships are this bad, Aptera is in for some deep sledding.
I have one simple question: What date did Wilbur step into the CEO position? If that doesn't answer every question right about now, only then could something else be wrong.

[wcabdefense]

I think the FWD was a performance decision, and worth the wait. The roll-down window was a nice idea, but I believe an adequate number of us would have purchased the 2e without the aerodynamic compromise and further delay. Getting the 2e delivered without the cup-holders/roll-down windows/heated seats/Shiatsu back massagers would probably have been the better call.

Once 2500 were on the road, they could work on the rolling windows for the next 2h model. At least the initial master concept would be mass-produced, delivered, and vetted by the faithful. Minor tweaks are the stuff of model year modifications. An unrealized dream is just a dream. I have reservations for a 2e and a 2h. That is how sure I was that this car was the future of commuting.

[3-4-me]

This news has been a huge punch in the gut. I never did think that bringing "Detroit suits" into the company was a good idea.
I still long for the original rear wheel, belt drive Type I that we all fell in love with. Something about the KISS approach resonated with me.
I'm ready to cancel my reservation, but will hold my place in line, at least until we hear from Aptera. Hopefully they can spin this enough to actually produce something worthwhile.
This seems like a plausible scenario:
But other sources inside Aptera tell a different story, saying Fambro and Anthony increasingly were at odds with Wilbur’s direction. As the new CEO developed a plan to slash costs aggressively and leave a skeleton crew to wait for federal money, the founders developed an alternative plan. It included reversing the new engineering direction and delivering cars to customers ASAP. The plan also may have included returning executive control to the founders. It is unclear what would have become of Wilbur has the board accepted this plan, and at this point it’s moot because the plan was rejected. In a boardroom showdown, the majority of directors backed Wilbur’s plan. Shortly thereafter, Fambro and Antony were let go — their official status with the company remained unclear Sunday — along with an unknown number of other employees

The company insists Fambro was not let go and says he volunteered to take a leave of absence to help the company save money while it waits out the DOE loan process. McCammon said he could not comment further as he was not familiar with the details.
Taken from: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/aptera-founders-ousted-in-boardroom-showdown/

[esmith]

4. Aptera surprises us and actually get a car out in June

At this point getting a car out in June will only happen if they manage to close another round of financing in the next few months. Without more private financing, we're probably looking at the end of 2010 as the launch date. Letting SF go was a bad move for publicity and they'll have to put a lot of effort into spinning it for future investors.
On the other hand, they have all the necessary technology, they can probably start mass production even without SF. I'll even venture a guess that they won't lose many reservations over this. Not if they come right out and reaffirm the plan to do a mass launch next summer, and throw us some bones like pricing/options.

It's better for a company to be moving in a certain direction as a whole, than to be stalled by an internal dispute. I would've preferred to see some vehicles roll out ASAP, but next June is better than nothing.

With a very small staff they would answer emails, put out videos, and make an effort to update us all on their progress as they had time. I felt included and felt their relationship to me was genuine and healthy. Heck, Fambro even showed us his daughter playing the the passenger seat. Since Sept 2008 their relationship with me has withered and died.

That is not quite accurate. The period when Aptera was most communicative was immediately after Wilbur came on board, Sept 08 to Apr 09. I've just checked the newsletter archive. There were a total of two newsletters during the first eight months of 2008. So, for a while the new guys have been doing their jobs properly.

[KarenRei]

I have one simple question: What date did Wilbur step into the CEO position? If that doesn't answer every question right about now, only then could something else be wrong.

September 4th, 2008. Precisely 51 years to the day after the Edsel was introduced. Also the same day as the start of the War of 1812 and the most destructive day of the Great Fire of London.

[Sapphire Dragon]

September 4th, 2008. Precisely 51 years to the day after the Edsel was introduced. Also the same day as the start of the War of 1812 and the most destructive day of the Great Fire of London.
I can see where this is going.

[ggodman]

Aptera for me has always been a leap of faith.

I believed in Steve and Chris's dream of a better mode of transportation and I truly believe it is now gone.

I see Aptera playing out like Tesla but without Musk's vision and bankroll Aptera does not have anywhere near the staying power. I expect it to wither even if it get's the welfare funding from uncle Obama. The culture will have changed too much to get to market soon enough to make any difference. (I wonder whom else's payroll Paul is on, I'm not generally a conspiracy theorist but there is a reason the Ni-Mh batteries are not in cars today).

Wilbur is an Old School car guy so we will get an old school car with him at the helm even if the company can survive long enough to suck off the government's hind tit to produce a vehicle.

Whatever spineless board members threw Steve and Chris out made a mistake in my opinion and my deposit money will be following my principles, unless I get a newsletter/email tomorrow or the next day describing exact reason when/where/how I will get my Aptera and why I should trust the Detroit crew that threw out the visionaries.

The truly stupid thing about all of this is that Steve and Chris were the typical naive founders, I would have bought the original no roll down prototype last year an been perfectly happy to struggle into the cabin. Aptera had a one year lead on the market and could have established a brand of futuristic cars that would lead this country into the next fifty years if Steve and Chris had not given up too much control, I don't blame them, it happens to all to many founders but I could have wished for a better outcome.

My two cents if it's not nuked this time.

[KarenRei]

Side note, Karen I appreciate all the hard work you have done in producing and maintaining and (owning?) the forum and your dedication to the dream, but I think nuking my posts from a couple of days ago was a bit over the top in protecting the dream.

Huh? Deleted what?

[Sapphire Dragon]

Whatever spineless board members threw Steve and Chris out made a mistake in my opinion
...In more than only your opinion. *Points to me and any others who agree*

[esmith]

Huh? I think you're confused...

perhaps they were the ones moved into this thread

http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?p=39642#post39642

[ggodman]

"Delayed again?" and "Steve interview", Removed comment based on last post, I'm sorry Karen, I could not find it and thought It had been removed.

[turbo wing]

I take it that with all this going on the chance of Aptera showing at the X prize is rapidly diminishing

[Sapphire Dragon]

I take it that with all this going on the chance of Aptera showing at the X prize is rapidly diminishing
Most probably. Unless the date of the X prize is a good month or so away at the least, and I mean the very least, I really don't think it will make it to an auto show. It's not even communicating with the outside officially yet- so until then, I don't think it will be doing anything other than clearing this up, really.

[SEGsby]

There might be one new prototype for funding rounds built and shown around end of year for investors, but after that... WTF knows. :(

[randyd]

The truly stupid thing about all of this is that Steve and Chris were the typical naive founders.

Maybe there is a movie deal somewhere out there for Steve and Chris! :)

Seriously, while I have lots of sympathy for the founders and all the workers laid off, I have to remind my self that this is car^H^H^Hvehicle and a company we are talking about. It is not a cause, as some one put it. And as some one else put it, the idea and the potential are now clear. The cat is out of the bag. The "bar" has been set quite high by Steve and Chris. If Aptera doesn't produce the 2e, then some one else will produce something like it. It is too sweet an idea to disappear. It is far more revolutionary than the Tucker. The Tucker was not different enough. And the 2e is comming at a time when the market is ripe for the kinds of ideas it contains (unlike the Tucker).

While I don't want to wait another 2 years, or 3 years, I will, if that is how long it takes. Not because I am a "fanboy" or "true believer" or because I love Steve and hate Wilbur, but because my standards for efficiency and simplicity are now quite high. I know what can be done, and I don't need or want to settle for something less.

I have seen what can be done. I want it. I don't want anything less.

[willytc1066]

You know what? I've been thinking about this all day, and... well, time for me to stop keeping my mouth shut.

I don't care who makes it.

I want a car where the focus is on efficiency and safety, not changing the door design. If there's a choice between having the original door with a split window or even no roll-down windows vs. getting a lengthy door redesign to add a couple inches but compromise the structural integrity of the doors and compromise the aerodynamics, give me the split window! If for some strange reason I can't get something large through it? I know how to open a door! I don't give a rat's arse how many Big Gulp cupholders "EVA" comes with. You know the last time I bought a Big Gulp? If you do, tell me, because I certainly can't remember *ever* having bought one. I'm certainly not the fast food crowd that they keep tailoring things to.

In short, I want a car like what was introduced early on. I've sat around and defended them as they've imposed delay after delay trying to mass-market the car (alienating their *actual* market), hoping that they'd get *something* out. I've tried to defend them to everyone, tried to stop the bleed, because I've believed in this company. But that's over. I'm the last person who one would ever expect to say this, but: if Aptera won't do it, and someone like Steve starts a company to do it, I absolutely will drop my reservation -- and widespread advocacy for Aptera -- and switch over to them.

Seriously, how much can they not know their market? The people waiting for this car are people who *want* a revolutionary new vehicle. These are not people in the market for a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Automakers have repeatedly acted like people like me don't exist: people who care about form over function, who want the aerodynamics engineers to get top-bidding rather than the stylists, people who *want* something different. And when we finally get one -- *one* -- serious company trying to do this, what happens? They stall and change the vehicle until it gets to the point where they just throw the people who came up with the car out the door. I now half expect the car to come out with a bike rack on the roof and spinners on the wheel pods.

Will somebody please quit focusing on what we're *supposed* to want on a car and listen to what we *actually* want on a car? What brought us here in the first place?

They got 4,000 pre-orders in, what, 6-9 months? Restricted to *only California*? With minimal marketing efforts, from a startup company that hadn't produced anything? That's freaking amazing. Anyone who thinks that these people pre-ordered because they wanted Big Gulp cupholders and wanted to wait a year and a half for the doors' aero to be hurt and the structural integrity compromised is an idiot. How many orders have then gotten since everything started getting stalled and changed? Negative 1000 or so? Yeah, we're just pre-orders; we don't represent everyone who will ever buy the car. But even they don't care about us, we're the same sort of people that are going to buy the car in the future.

Delays for safety reasons? Sure. Delays for reliability? Sure. But delays to make it into a more conventional car? Ugh. If Steve makes an actual Aptera and Aptera doesn't, you better believe I'll switch over in an instant. "Aptera" is just a name. It's the vehicle that matters.

Oh, and don't even get me started on the communications management...

Sorry for being so blunt, but I had to get this off my chest.

KarenRei is the most intelligent contributor to this forum. I agree wholeheartedly with her comments.

First they (literally) crushed the EV1 and now the Detroit dinosaurs are going to kill off the Aptera.

[Matthijs]

"Delayed again?" and "Steve interview", Removed comment based on last post, I'm sorry Karen, I could not find it and thought It had been removed.

That was my doing. I am sorry if you were upset about it. I just thought it would fit very well with the original post of the video because it's seemed you did not realize it was an older video.

For all other here, I never delete a post on this forum. Only if it contains spam.

[Sapphire Dragon]

and now the Detroit dinosaurs are going to kill off the Aptera.
Not without resistance. If not from the board, then from the supporters.

[virtualeric]

*puts on paranoid musing hat*

Until the ex-detroit brains were brought in, the company was inspiring, innovating, informing customers and building loyalty. It was also cranking out prototypes.

After they were brought in, much of that went away or slowed to a crawl.

I believe we need to follow the money and the relationships. Who is on the board? Who are the investors? What are the expectations of the investors...do they align with the founders? Does money hold the decision making power, and if so, who let that happen? And speaking of money, did significant chunks of money follow in the path of Wilber, and if so what is that relationship?

I'd muse that Fambro and co did not have all the psychological goods on Wilber and co and the investors, or that someone has now changed their vision, or both.

The really paranoid part of me says money and people were presented in a way that played into the weaknesses of Fambro and co as part of a greater scheme to methodically marginalize the company, deconstructing its vision and power and eroding relations with its customers with the overall goal of sidelining it from the EV race just enough that it shatters under the wheels of the big players when they roll out their EV clunkers and announce "the revolution" (which it never will be if they have it their way).

From the outside, it looks like that plan is working very well so far.

*takes paranoid musing hat off*

*comes back to reality--whatever that is*

[Sapphire Dragon]

The really paranoid part of me says money and people were presented in a way that played into the weaknesses of Fambro and co as part of a greater scheme to methodically marginalize the company, deconstructing its vision and power and eroding relations with its customers with the overall goal of sidelining it from the EV race just enough that it shatters under the wheels of the big players when they roll out their EV clunkers and announce "the revolution" (which it never will be if they have it their way).

*comes back to reality--whatever that is*
Hopefully, that isn't what happened. Though at this point, nearly anything is plausible...

Reality is an illusion.

[eestorfan]

Tucker. It's Tucker all over again.

I think the real frustration is our impotence -- we WANT to care and we'd LIKE to help, but the company has shut us out. Any 13 year old kid could update a website -- hell, there are many of us on the forum who'd do it for free -- but Aptera seems to have neither interest in nor concern for keeping the public informed about the development of this vehicle.

Will I ever see an Aptera on the road? I dunno. Will I ever get to own one? I doubt it. Is the Nissan Leaf ugly as sin? You betcha. Will this long-snout Versa make it in the marketplace? Probably. And why? Because it's there.
It may be ugly in your eyes, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Actually, it looks NOTHING like a Versa. And since Aptera is going to be at least two or more years away from me, since I'm not in CA, the LEAF is coming available end of 2010...five states. I just want to stop using our natural resources (that includes hybrids!) and have a ZERO emission vehicle. What is really great about the LEAF though, is that there will be thousands of charging stations to use, most of them free! I'm hoping there will be solar ones too, but I'm planning on using our pv's to charge it most of the time. I really do feel for all the people with the Aptera.

[KarenRei]

While I don't want to wait another 2 years, or 3 years, I will, if that is how long it takes. Not because I am a "fanboy" or "true believer" or because I love Steve and hate Wilbur, but because my standards for efficiency and simplicity are now quite high. I know what can be done, and I don't need or want to settle for something less.

I have seen what can be done. I want it. I don't want anything less.

Well put. It doesn't matter who makes it; it's *what* it is. Or at least what it was. We're not here looking for an electric civic. There was a point in time when I would have found something like that acceptable. That point disappeared when I discovered Aptera. The old Aptera, at least. And if the current company can't make something like that, then I have to ask: why not? If the response even so much as hints at the term "big gulp", I'm going to scream.

[eestorfan]

by June we will be able to put deposits on the leaf, and maybe the iMIEV soon after
Actually, if you live in the five states where it will be available to buy end of 2010, you can reserve one in the Spring! Otherwise, you will have to wait until 2012.

[mycomya]

Reportedly (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/aptera-founders-ousted-in-boardroom-showdown/): The company insists Fambro was not let go and says he volunteered to take a leave of absence to help the company save money while it waits out the DOE loan process
I can understand that in a heated boardroom, with controlling interests knocking heads, one side would voluntarily decide to bow out for a while. Since Wilbur was given reigns to control the company and they've already invested a year, fully committed to the redesign (and delay), there's no turning back. It must pain the founders as much as the rest of us to see battle lines drawn within the company and if they are at each others throats, then it does no one good and one side will need some space. Given the current situation (and commitments), Steve and Chris would be the ones who need to stand down and let the process play out. I can see the founders being fed up, and doing this separation voluntarily. At the same time, I don’t think the board will want to alienate them entirely; Chris and Steve retain value for the company. So this sentence in the wired.com piece, while greatly simplified, may have had it right, at least from the management’s perspective. Wilbur et al. probably gave them some fig leaves, hoping that later on, when finances are better and the immediate problems on hand are resolved, Steve and Chris may position themselves to help. Ugh, still… depressing.

Obviously, its messy and there's more to it than a simple, amicable temporary separation; and what palmer_md wrote is spot on. All evidence suggests that Paul Wilbur and Marques have steered Aptera into a ditch, and have repeatedly run over deposit holders en route. Now we can only hope they get their act together...

I’m not a die-hard early adopter although I’m completely in love with the front-wheel version, as first conceived. Engineers obsessed with optimizing efficiency are the best designers, without a doubt. The world needs the Aptera pp6 NOW and I wish they were produced for people to purchase and zip around in, at the promised starting price of below $30k. Windows be damned; it would have sold well, no doubt, and would have stood to represent a major turning point in automotive history.

I am concerned about the original width, however, so I may not have been among the first to buy (I don't know, I've never seen the pp6 in person). And, as long as the safety and efficiency remains extremely high (as currently advertised), I appreciate having a roll-down window and don’t mind the squarish compromise for better ingress/egress, increased interior volume. So personally, I would be a more enthusiastic buyer of the latest, narrower incarnation than for the pp6. I’m in the minority on this point, but that doesn’t preclude me from cheering on the early adopters. This vehicle needs to be on the streets, in any of the proposed forms ASAP. I would get a such a kick seeing the pp6 on the freeway being driven by no one famous (nor especially rich).

While I don't want to wait another 2 years, or 3 years, I will, if that is how long it takes. Not because I am a "fanboy" or "true believer" or because I love Steve and hate Wilbur, but because my standards for efficiency and simplicity are now quite high. I know what can be done, and I don't need or want to settle for something less.

I have seen what can be done. I want it. I don't want anything less.
Very nicely put.

[Matthijs]

Aptera CMO Tony Kirton
"We understand deeply that our customers will make this brand. They will own it. And we will do our utmost to respect that at all times."

What did happen with Tony?

[Scott]

Also per request, my summary position...

I put down a deposit the very first day I ever heard of Aptera. I've never had a new car in my life, never thought I would. But this, this would be my first, and I had nary a second thought. I was #36 or something like that in the original list. I won't say the car was perfect; I thought it looked strange, and as details came out, I got nervous about this or that about the design, but I never really second guessed my deposit, or my intent to purchase one.

The concepts that entranced me were a) completely shattering the mold of what a car had to be, b) a series hybrid (sorry, I want it, not an EV), and c) the worship of pure aerodynamics.

I was told, any number of different things about when I'd see my car. As a very early reservation, I though I was looking at July of 2008. Then I was told later, and later, and I was not surprised, or even largely disappointed. I expected it. But I always felt ok about it, because when push came to shove, I was able to get a little teaser that there was hope, and there was always a date on the table. (At one point, I had to threaten Aptera with cancellation to *get* that update, but it could be had.)

The last several months have been really tough. I think I could have handled any news, any timeline, any prognosis, as long as I heard *something*. I am strongly disappointed by the unbelievably sub-par communications. I just can not physically understand the logic here. Hey, I work for a company, I have clients, I would never, ever, expect to retain them without communications.

I think they layoffs are a raw deal, but they won't drive me away. I think there has definitely been some substandard management, since there are no cars on the street. I can't comment on the realities behind closed doors; I don't *know* anything about what the company is doing. I just know I don't have a car 16 months after I was promised it, and I see no date on the table that is within the *next* 16 months.

The presence of a viable competitor who makes it to market before Aptera will very likely pull me away. Not because of loyalty, but because I just want an efficient vehicle. Mine. In my driveway. Taking me to work.

I'm not saying anything anyone else hasn't, so I'll shut up now.

p.s.
If getting a production car out to market is so darn difficult, why not have a bridge time, when they sell kit-cars, as has been suggested, I would freaking LOVE to mess with that, and learn like crazy.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Reportedly (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/11/aptera-founders-ousted-in-boardroom-showdown/):
I can understand that in a heated boardroom, with controlling interests knocking heads, one side would voluntarily decide to bow out for a while. Since Wilbur was given reigns to control the company and they've already invested a year, fully committed to the redesign (and delay), there's no turning back. It must pain the founders as much as the rest of us to see battle lines drawn within the company and if they are at each others throats, then it does no one good and one side will need some space. Given the current situation (and commitments), Steve and Chris would be the ones who need to stand down and let the process play out. I can see the founders being fed up, and doing this separation voluntarily. At the same time, I don’t think the board will want to alienate them entirely; Chris and Steve retain value for the company. So this sentence in the wired.com (http://wired.com) piece, while greatly simplified, may have had it right, at least from the management’s perspective. Wilbur et al. probably gave them some fig leaves, hoping that later on, when finances are better and the immediate problems on hand are resolved, Steve and Chris may position themselves to help. Ugh, still… depressing.

Obviously, its messy and there's more to it than a simple, amicable temporary separation; and what palmer_md wrote is spot on. All evidence suggests that Paul Wilbur and Marques have steered Aptera into a ditch, and have repeatedly run over deposit holders en route. Now we can only hope they get their act together...
That's very true. I can understand Steve & co. wanting to stand down for the best of the company... if they believed that Wilbur was doing it right. Which, as of now, doesn't seem to be the case, sadly.

[KarenRei]

Aptera CMO Tony Kirton


What did happen with Tony?

Tony was replaced by Marques.

[Matthijs]

Tony was replaced by Marques.
Just great. So Tony worked from June 24, 2008 till a little after September 3, 2008 So he only worked there for 2 months? And even was able to produce such a nice quote? I wonder why he left. Or did not leave voluntarily maybe?

[Captain_Altair]

Aptera CMO Tony Kirton quote:
"We understand deeply that our customers will make this brand. They will own it. And we will do our utmost to respect that at all times."



Just great. So Tony worked from June 24, 2008 till a little after September 3, 2008 So he only worked there for 2 months? And even was able to produce such a nice quote? I wonder why he left. Or did not leave voluntarily maybe?



It's not too surprising that he has been replaced -- his quote about respect for the customer clearly goes against current company policy.

[esmith]

Just great. So Tony worked from June 24, 2008 till a little after September 3, 2008 So he only worked there for 2 months? And even was able to produce such a nice quote? I wonder why he left. Or did not leave voluntarily maybe?

Marques came over from Saleen with Wilbur.

[KarenRei]

Just great. So Tony worked from June 24, 2008 till a little after September 3, 2008 So he only worked there for 2 months? And even was able to produce such a nice quote? I wonder why he left. Or did not leave voluntarily maybe?

Tony was replaced on Nov. 6th, 2008.

[wolfdoggy]

Unfortunately Aptera has made the hard and correct decisson. The founders should have addressed the two major issues with the Aptera vehicle early on.

1. Roll down windows.
2. The very large width between the two front wheels.

I do think Aptera could have kept employees on by going with Fanbro and Anthony's idea in a limited manor as you suggest. Split windows would work. I do not think that any more than 15% of the present 4000 reservation holders would have taken this, as they would want to wait for the full roll down window version. To much of a penalty for me to pay tens of thousands of dollars for a car that is extremely wide and limited roll down windows.

One other point is Aptera would then have to support and maintain these "one off" first vehicles. That probably would not have been to bad though.

JMHO

[KarenRei]

1. Roll down windows.
2. The very large width between the two front wheels.

The production intent for the typ1 before they brought in the Detroit team did have a narrower front track and (split) roll-down windows. It also had wider opening doors. This seems more of a case of the new team wanting to put their mark on the vehicle than anything else. It's not a case of "the old team wasn't taking into account user desires". It's a case of "the new team not liking the way the old team was taking care of user desires".

Split windows would work.

Also proposed by the old team, vetoed by the new team. Which would you rather have filling up your door: the same foam-core composite that gives the shell its incredible strength, or a hollow for the glass to go into when the window is down? And in terms of development time it was a no-brainer.

[RainCaster]

I have had my reservation in for quite some time now. My number is very low three digits. I chose the Typ2e because it was scheduled first out the door, and met all of my needs as a commute vehicle. Because of my situation at the time, I had to order through a proxy. Times have changed and now I spend enough time in CA that I could legitimately have it delivered there.

I have also looked at Tesla and spent lots of time at the Lotus factory admiring many different flavours of Elise & Exige. I have a Honda S2000 as my current commute car in WA, a Camry hybrid in CA, and a Ford Fiesta (diesel) in the UK. All these cars will last me a very long time (Fiesta excepted) and so I'm not in a big hurry to find a replacement.

In my career, I have started a number of companies. One company only ever had one paying customer, and never shipped a real production ready product. Very early on, we had made the decision to focus on selling the company, and not the product. We stopped sending out updates and went silent. Much of this silence was due to the negotiations we were in with several large companies. Each wanted to buy us, but did not know about the other suitors. There are many rules designed to protect the investors, which prohibited us from saying anything about a possible friendly takeover. Therefore, we said nothing at all. Is this sounding at all familiar?

Fast forward two years, and the company which bought us has dropped all development of the technologies we had pioneered. It is as if we had never existed. So the customers who wanted our "stuff" got screwed. However, the company had been a raging success because the investors made out so well on the corporate sale.

As for my own opinion, which KarenRei so kindly requested-
The current Typ2e has slowly drifted away from Steve's vision. Many of those changes were good, but not all. What idiot thought that they could hold off on the biggest engineering challenge of all until the last? Why was the Door-Window Decision held up until the very end of the design phase?

I would have fired the Chief Engineer long ago. All the money that went into many interior redesigns should have been shelved until the basic engineering of the opening windows was completed.

As for Marques, no matter how lovable he is in person, he has totally pissed away any goodwill he might have had with his most loyal fan base (http://apteraforum.com). His bloated salary could have paid for at least two top notch engineers, and I would rather see the money spent on that. But then, I am a Potential Customer not an Investor.

Saleen is an aftermarket company. They have only engineered one car from the ground up, and it was very late and outrageously expensive.

This "experiment" in green marketing was rather successfull. It showed Japan Inc. that a significant portion of America is actually willing to buy and drive something that is more about real efficiency than about looking good at the Golds Gym parking lot. We are seeing the results of this in the cars from Nissan & Mitsubishi.

Will I still buy the Typ2e? I don't know anymore. It has grown so heavy and big that it just isn't that special. The lies about delivery have really turned me off, and I just don't have any faith or trust in Aptera the company any longer.

Do I still want a plug-in electric? Bet your arse I do! Maybe Zapp can do it, or maybe somebody else can. The least likely candidate in my mind is Steve Fambro being able to pick up the pieces of his former firm and get something out the door. Unless he started on that project in September of 2008, he is just too late. Put some roses on his grave for me please.

[tetons97]

Karen,
You have put into words exactly what I have believed through this past 2 years. I was so inspired with the Type 1, I ordered an H and also an E because the release date had changed. Steve had an operational H I believe. Did the Detroit boys scuttle it in favor of all the unwanted options they added to the E?. Anyway, Thanks for putting my thoughts into words. If you here of Steve doing a startup before me, please email me tetons97@me.com Thanks again, Rob

[TheAeronut]

Crap!!! Folks, I am really crushed by these latest developments.

My personal thoughts? They should have produced and sold the Aptera Typ 1 as a brand builder and development vehicle. I am sure that they could have sold several thousand of those in California alone - even with the somewhat wide wheel track and no opening windows. Heck, I would still buy that one - what is it?? PP6?

That would have helped to fund the development and production of the Aptera 2e that the auto industry old guard seem to think is MUCH MORE appealing to the general public. I think that they are wrong, but it's a bit late to argue that.

I would even be happy with a vehicle like the current rendering leaks... JUST GET SOMETHING OUT IN THE MARKET AND GET SOME CASHFLOW GOINT!!!!! The 2010 model does not have to be identical to the 2009 model... The 2e does not have to be identical to the Typ(e) 1... JUST START SELLING!!!

GRRRUMBLE!!

/rant off

I suppose that I will post something more coherent later, but I just wanted to get this out now.

J.P.

[Telchar]

This is some depressing news, alright. Not wholly unexpected, but depressing nonetheless. What I find funny in this, though, is how by all appearances the window/door issue singlehandedly brought down the company. Sure, some of this is hyperbole, but I would think of the many issues in designing a new car, making a door with windows that roll down or not would be among the easiest.

[palmer_md]

... I would think of the many issues in designing a new car, making a door with windows that roll down or not would be among the easiest.

Not when your primary design criteria is efficiency. Roll down windows increases weight, reduces strength and decreases efficiency. Makes you wonder just how important are roll down windows.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

When you have to completely redesign the whole chassis shape to get in working roll down windows, it does take a while!

Also, they narrowed the front wheels (down to under 7' out-to-out?), and moved the battery pack to under the floor, raised the ground clearance, lowered the drag by ~9% (including completely new wheel pods), added a front bumper (and increased the rear "bumper"), reworked the doors to open wider, made the rear quarter windows larger, reworked the hatch door and window, -- in the end a complete redesign!

[KarenRei]

Hi,

When you have to completely redesign the whole chassis shape to get in working roll down windows, it does take a while!

Also, they narrowed the front wheels (down to under 7' out-to-out?), and moved the battery pack to under the floor, raised the ground clearance, lowered the drag by ~9% (including completely new wheel pods), added a front bumper (and increased the rear "bumper"), reworked the doors to open wider, made the rear quarter windows larger, reworked the hatch door and window, -- in the end a complete redesign!

Of course, most of that stuff was already being readied for the Typ-1 release scheduled for late 2008 when the new team came onboard, as had been planned all along. Sometimes delays are caused not by what you're trying to do, but differing opinions about how to do it.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Sometimes delays are caused not by what you're trying to do, but differing opinions about how to do it.
That's a very true point.

[palmer_md]

Of course, most of that stuff was already being readied for the Typ-1 release scheduled for late 2008 when the new team came onboard, as had been planned all along. Sometimes delays are caused not by what you're trying to do, but differing opinions about how to do it.

my thoughts exactly.

[KarenRei]

An image that hit the press on April 23, 2008:

272

[Sapphire Dragon]

Is that who I think it is?

[palmer_md]

Is that who I think it is?

Is not so much who, but what...take a close look at that engineers window design. Or take a close look at the window of the car at the top of this, and every, page on the forum.

[Sapphire Dragon]

I see it now... ><

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

An image that hit the press on April 23, 2008:

272

Did you edit the link to disable it? 'Cuz it ain't workin'...

[Edit: that's weird -- now that I quoted it, I can get the link to work... Who is that? And the "opening" part of the window looks like some tape on the glass...]

[KarenRei]

Hi Karen,



Did you edit the link to disable it? 'Cuz it ain't workin'...

[Edit: that's weird -- now that I quoted it, I can get the link to work... Who is that? And the "opening" part of the window looks like some tape on the glass...]

Neil Hannemann. Here's the source:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080423005330&newsLang=en

And yes, it is a tape outline of a split window.

[aptera1213]

wow, aptera was a least nice enough to hire just about everybody that left saleen...

[roflwaffle]

I'd love a kit, especially if it was designed to use off the shelf, or better yet, junk-yard, components. We order the ~$5,000 shell w/ glass (maybe a cluster?), go grab some suspension pieces, a seat, and maybe a transmission off of some donor cars, then drop our own motor/controller/batteries (and so on) in. If I could piece together a minimalist ~100Wh/mile vehicle for around $15,000 I'd be happy as a clam.

[turbo wing]

I'd love a kit, especially if it was designed to use off the shelf, or better yet, junk-yard, components. We order the ~$5,000 shell w/ glass (maybe a cluster?), go grab some suspension pieces, a seat, and maybe a transmission off of some donor cars, then drop our own motor/controller/batteries (and so on) in. If I could piece together a minimalist ~100Wh/mile vehicle for around $15,000 I'd be happy as a clam.

All sounds good till you start to dig into the idea
by the time you buy your controller and drive motor and all other components to do what you suggested you will be surprised how much this adds up to, if you think your going to use lead acid batteries to save money, get used to the idea you will only get about a 15 mile range with the amount on batteries you can fit into the Aptera, either way your going to use up the best part of ten grand just to get your drive train in place at a minimal, then you need the car, I can't see an Aptera body selling for less then 15 G's, as for your suspension, sorry to say but you will never just grab something from a donor car cause there is nothing on the marked even close to Aptera, it is very specialised so you will need to buy this from Aptera and it wont be cheep, if you want to build an Aptera at home you need to be ready to fork over 25G's just to get the ball rolling, then you still need paint and interior ect, ect,

[DanD]

Exactly - view a kit car as a parallel to a kit, or experimental, aircraft.

If someone's motivation to build an experimental aircraft is to save money then they generally end up with something full of cost-cutting compromises that might not bode well for a safe vehicle.

On the other hand, someone who builds an aircraft from a kit so that they know the systems inside and out and can repair and update it on their own are generally the ones that produce a fantastic aircraft. They'll have as much money into the kit as an older, used (but functional and safe) production aircraft. The kit will offer modern performance and components not offered elsewhere.


All sounds good till you start to dig into the idea
by the time you buy your controller and drive motor and all other components to do what you suggested you will be surprised how much this adds up to, if you think your going to use lead acid batteries to save money, get used to the idea you will only get about a 15 mile range with the amount on batteries you can fit into the Aptera, either way your going to use up the best part of ten grand just to get your drive train in place at a minimal, then you need the car, I can't see an Aptera body selling for less then 15 G's, as for your suspension, sorry to say but you will never just grab something from a donor car cause there is nothing on the marked even close to Aptera, it is very specialised so you will need to buy this from Aptera and it wont be cheep, if you want to build an Aptera at home you need to be ready to fork over 25G's just to get the ball rolling, then you still need paint and interior ect, ect,

[evmavin]

A kit would be more of an issue than it would ever be worth for a 2e. Most kit cars are based on production frames and and off the shelf parts. A kit on something like this would mean near production already and would not make sense. This needs to be a production vehicle, period. Just the high-voltage issues alone make a kit extremely dangerous and too complicated for the majority.

[DanD]

For the majority, yes. However, do not underestimate the ability of hundreds of professional integrators to safely install components on a rolling chassis and re-sell them.


A kit would be more of an issue than it would ever be worth for a 2e. Most kit cars are based on production frames and and off the shelf parts. A kit on something like this would mean near production already and would not make sense. This needs to be a production vehicle, period. Just the high-voltage issues alone make a kit extremely dangerous and too complicated for the majority.

[evmavin]

For the majority, yes. However, do not underestimate the ability of hundreds of professional integrators to safely install components on a rolling chassis and re-sell them.


I've built many advanced EV's and worked on many as well. To get to the point where this makes sense you might as well build it entirely.

[roflwaffle]

All sounds good till you start to dig into the idea
by the time you buy your controller and drive motor and all other components to do what you suggested you will be surprised how much this adds up to, if you think your going to use lead acid batteries to save money, get used to the idea you will only get about a 15 mile range with the amount on batteries you can fit into the Aptera, either way your going to use up the best part of ten grand just to get your drive train in place at a minimal, then you need the car,That's roughly accurate. A 15kWh LFP pack goes for around $6,000, and the motor/controller/additional hardware would get it to around $10,000 give or take, depending on the specifics.
I can't see an Aptera body selling for less then 15 G's, as for your suspension, sorry to say but you will never just grab something from a donor car cause there is nothing on the marked even close to Aptera, it is very specialised so you will need to buy this from Aptera and it wont be cheep, if you want to build an Aptera at home you need to be ready to fork over 25G's just to get the ball rolling, then you still need paint and interior ect, ect,If they made it as a kit, and that's a big if, it would be pointless to design it such that it required the buyer to drop another ten thousand dollars worth of new suspension/interior components, they would just design it to accept common/old off the shelf stuff like any other kit car shell. Making it that expensive defeats the purpose of offering it as a kit. Arguably, they wouldn't even offer glass, just the body, and design it to take common off the shelf parts found on other vehicles. Unless the composite material they use is much more expensive than the fiber glass/kevlar mix found in most kit car bodies, the body should be around $5,000 in low volume give or take.

[evmavin]

The only way this could be a kit is if they supplied every single part and YOU put it together. The shell is pointless without glass, completed suspension, battery packaging, drive system connection. Most people don't have a clue what it takes to build an EV VS and ICE kit at home. A kit is a really bad but wishful idea, you could make them in Mexico for less. Aptera parts off other vehicles? Like a tire? There is no way anything off another vehicle will go on this except possibly brakes, every part is custom. Not going to happen. Sell Aptera to Tesla and let them put a ACP full drive in and now we have an unreal EV with power, efficiency, ultra fast charging, and it will get built plus it wont end up looking like a new Dodge charger.

[rayfellow]

Kits are hard - for me anyway. I put a Forte Piano together once... I learned sooo much. 1) I'm not so good at attention to detail 2) the mistakes you make in day one will haunt you for the life of the project 3) an appreciation for the fit and finish of a well made product.

Please - just give me the end product. Otherwise, its frustration and wasted money. Anyway, once the kit company produces all the parts, it may as well assemble it too.

[roflwaffle]

Kinda OT, but I never seen so many odd ideas about kit cars.

The point of making a kit car, usually a replica, is that only a certain set of parts, sometimes just a body, is supplied. There's nothing about a kit car that requires every single part to come from a specific seller or manufacturer. A Lotus 7 or Ford Cobra kit car isn't identical to a Lotus 7 or Ford Cobra, it just looks like one. It may use a Ford or GM or whatever platform, or some combination of both, for the donor chassis/powertrain/etc. It could just be a fancy looking body slapped on a VW chassis/running gear.

If Aptera made an affordable kit, say the 2k (not just allowing people to purchase the car piece by piece), then it would be centered around a composite shell designed to accept whatever off the shelf parts, just like the sunrise kit that's been kicked around, except because of the nature of the composite material, there body is the chassis, so that wouldn't be needed unlike a sunrise kit. Anyway, someone would buy the composite body/chassis for whatever, then install whatever off the shelf parts for lighting/electrical/suspension/etc, because most kits are designed to be cost effective. If they only used expensive custom parts, then it probably wouldn't be make it as a kit, it would just be buying a 2e piece by piece and putting it together yourself.

[evmavin]

Kinda OT, but I never seen so many odd ideas about kit cars.

The point of making a kit car, usually a replica, is that only a certain set of parts, sometimes just a body, is supplied. There's nothing about a kit car that requires every single part to come from a specific seller or manufacturer. A Lotus 7 or Ford Cobra kit car isn't identical to a Lotus 7 or Ford Cobra, it just looks like one. It may use a Ford or GM or whatever platform, or some combination of both, for the donor chassis/powertrain/etc. It could just be a fancy looking body slapped on a VW chassis/running gear.

If Aptera made an affordable kit, say the 2k (not just allowing people to purchase the car piece by piece), then it would be centered around a composite shell designed to accept whatever off the shelf parts, just like the sunrise kit that's been kicked around, except because of the nature of the composite material, there body is the chassis, so that wouldn't be needed unlike a sunrise kit. Anyway, someone would buy the composite body/chassis for whatever, then install whatever off the shelf parts for lighting/electrical/suspension/etc, because most kits are designed to be cost effective. If they only used expensive custom parts, then it probably wouldn't be make it as a kit, it would just be buying a 2e piece by piece and putting it together yourself.


You can't equate an Aptera kit car to others, there are no "off the shelf parts" for an Aptera, its all custom made. It's not going to happen and it does not make sense for too many reasons.

[roflwaffle]

I'm comparing a kit 2 series to other kit cars around because that's what they would have to do to make it cost effective. They probably won't make a kit version, and they may not even release many assembled 2-series vehicles. It's all up in the air just like it has been for the past few years.

Anyway, when did Aptera get into the business of making batteries, suspension components, glass, electric motors/controllers/chargers, and so on, themselves? Considering how much room most auto parts suppliers need, that's an awfully small factory for Aptera to custom make an entire car. :thumbsup:

[evmavin]

I'm comparing a kit 2 series to other kit cars around because that's what they would have to do to make it cost effective. They probably won't make a kit version, and they may not even release many assembled 2-series vehicles. It's all up in the air just like it has been for the past few years.

Anyway, when did Aptera get into the business of making batteries, suspension components, glass, electric motors/controllers/chargers, and so on, themselves? Considering how much room most auto parts suppliers need, that's an awfully small factory for Aptera to custom make an entire car. :thumbsup:

Aptera is having a custom spec controller made in volume, not one you pick up off the shelf, I would guess the only non-custom parts are the raw batteries, shocks, brakes and a steering column down to where the tie rods start, some motors for the windows, leds, etc.

Are you aware of the cost to make custom auto glass? They would buy it in quantity and you are expecting to pick it up where? Yes, they make many of their parts custom, they don't just buy them, when the car gets narrower they don't go to Kragen and say "give me a shorter suspension arm with an exact spec, they are not auto parts. They don't make batteries but the do make very custom and complex packaging and cooling systems for them which takes extensive testing, engineering, etc. So what exactly would be in this kit? Besides 1000 + hours of labor and and extra $40K in parts, excluding all the specialty tools and TIG welder you will need. Just fabricate a battery rack for a BASIC conversion and see how much time is involved in engineering, planning, welding, fitting, etc, etc. The kit idea makes no sense here and there is NO comparison to other kit cars other than they share the work "kit". You can fabricate anything in your garage if you have the time and proper equipment such as a CNC machine, TIG welder, and years of machining experience. Even if they gave you everything in a crate, It would take a 100 hours to put it all together properly and working correctly.

[turbo wing]

Anyway, when did Aptera get into the business of making batteries, suspension components, glass, electric motors/controllers/chargers, and so on, themselves? Considering how much room most auto parts suppliers need, that's an awfully small factory for Aptera to custom make an entire car. :thumbsup:

I don't know about that, I was at the FVT BBQ last summer and saw there entire shop, they do everything there and I mean everything and there shop is only 4,500 ft, smaller then Aptera and there making every thing from controllers and motor's to lay up and paint, the only thing I saw that they farm out is the front glass and some complex machining

there's no reason to discus whether or not Aptera will build a kit car cause I can tell you it will never happen in a million years so all this speculation is just that

[roflwaffle]

I said it before and I'll say it again, if it's an affordable kit, the person isn't going to be assembling a 2e all by themselves using parts they had to fabricate themselves, they're going to be using off the shelf parts, probably from an old platform (j-yard parts are cheap!), w/ a shell designed to accommodate them.

Anyway, if Aptera orders a production run of whatever part, then it's still off the shelf (unless there are no spares ever made), just another production run of another part from an OEM.

[roflwaffle]

I don't know about that, I was at the FVT BBQ last summer and saw there entire shop, they do everything there and I mean everything and there shop is only 4,500 ft, smaller then Aptera and there making every thing from controllers and motor's to lay up and paint, the only thing I saw that they farm out is the front glass and some complex machiningSo they have all the tooling needed to pump out all the parts needed en mass themselves? Dang, they're putting the big boys to shame. So where did evmavin get the idea that they're going to OEMs for their parts?

[rayfellow]

I am imagining the difference is 100 units @$60K vs. 10000 units @ $30K.

[turbo wing]

I said it before and I'll say it again, if it's an affordable kit, the person isn't going to be assembling a 2e all by themselves using parts they had to fabricate themselves, they're going to be using off the shelf parts, probably from an old platform (j-yard parts are cheap!), w/ a shell designed to accommodate them.

exactly what parts on an Aptera do you think could ever be replaced with something from the junk yard??????? :biggrin:

[roflwaffle]

W/ a kit car designed to be affordable, just about everything except for the EV portion.

[turbo wing]

So they have all the tooling needed to pump out all the parts needed en mass themselves? Dang, they're putting the big boys to shame. So where did evmavin get the idea that they're going to OEMs for their parts?

FVT is an R&D shop and will never produce the car there, they already have an agreement with a manufacturer to produce the car after the X prize contest

[turbo wing]

So they have all the tooling needed to pump out all the parts needed en mass themselves? Dang, they're putting the big boys to shame. So where did evmavin get the idea that they're going to OEMs for their parts?


he must have made it up :)

[roflwaffle]

Doh! I'm talking about Aptera making all their parts in house, not FVT. :o

Besides, if FVT is having a manufacturer make the car, provided they get that far, do you think the manufacturer is going to make everything in house or order from parts suppliers like everyone else does?

[turbo wing]

Doh! I'm talking about Aptera making all their parts in house, not FVT. :o

Besides, if FVT is having a manufacturer make the car, provided they get that far, do you think the manufacturer is going to make everything in house or order from parts suppliers like everyone else does?

LOL what makes you think I was talking about FVT

Why should it mater what any manufacture dose or were they get there parts from, where are you going with this

[evmavin]

They are having an inverter specified to their design requirements. Anyone who knows about AC inverters knows they are not something you just design and build, they rely on software to drive them and it takes quite a design effort to build one which is why it makes no sense for Aptera or most to build one from scratch, the same for a higher power charger. My info for the controller is a Aptera exec. You may want to do some research into what it takes to build certain EV components and what is involved in something as complex as a ground-up design for an Aptera. Please share with us your "parts" suppliers and where you are going to get these "kit" parts and their approximate cost. Can you provide some details or are you just "making this all up" as you say. Also, please share some of your experience in packaging and cooling advanced batteries in small enclosures, how people with no HV EV design experience will string up and balance a 300V plus pack and isolate the HV and LV circuits perfectly so they wont kill themselves doing it or when interfacing to the LV system. I assume you have all the proper suspension alignment and assembly gear for your parts, the proper welding gear, electronic testing equipment, understanding of HEPI interfaces, CAN BUS systems, wire packaging, inverter programming, fail safe systems and their calibration, etc, etc, etc. Nothing personal but I don't think you even have a cursory idea of what is involved here and you are applying one concept to an other that does not apply. Even if the car came in parts it would be a huge task to assemble and build and you would still need a very high aptitude for mechanics and experience with EV electronics to make it work and month and months of full weekends. Oh- and will you be calling the 800 number on the instructions for help?

[lapwing]

They are having an inverter specified to their design requirements. .......?

Why on earth would they "waste" money in developing a proprietary solution.

The current PP6 with Azure Dynamics motor and inverter works just fine. This car could be put into production right now!

There are half a dozen working matched motor controller products out there in the power and torque range that would be perfect for the Aptera. A few of them are availible with a matching transaxle/differential.

Technically there is absolutly no reason for the delay, other than under Paul Wilbur's stirling leadership, there is no money left for production!

I want to see at least Wilbur, Marques and Marion gone.

They had there chance now they need to be fired by the BOD and very very soon!

Until Aptera-heads organise as a customer group, there is nothing we say or do, that will improve the present mess.

[roflwaffle]

Holy strawman evmavin. How many kit cars use a a drivetrain designed and built from the ground up by the kit car builder? None I know of. At best they source an existing drivetrain and drop it in if they're providing all the parts or just assembling it for a customer. Granted, Aptera probably wouldn't make a kit because there's way more profit in an assembled car (If they get that far), but what's impossible about designing a tweaked 2-series to take off the shelf inexpensive parts, along w/ whatever drivetrain the consumer wants to plop in there? People don't need to design a complex water cooled pack, AC drive, or whatever else. They can go w/ a reasonably priced controller, DC motor, TS LFP pack, and so on, or AC drive, water cooled pack, and so on. If it's an affordable kit, it's up to them what kind of drivetrain they want. They could have an expensive ~100Wh/mile vehicle w/ an AC-150/A123 cells in there, or a cheaper DC version w/ Chinese LFP cells. That's the point of offering a kit starting w/ a shell and letting the consumer decide if they want to buy more of it from the vendor, it's up to the owner where they want to go.

[roflwaffle]

LOL what makes you think I was talking about FVT

I don't know about that, I was at the FVT BBQ last summer and saw there entire shop, they do everything there and I mean everything and there shop is only 4,500 ft

Unless you meant to say you were at the Aptera BBQ. :tongue0015:

Why should it mater what any manufacture dose or were they get there parts from, where are you going with thisI was just mentioning that even Aptera has to get their stuff off the shelf if they want to sell more than a few cars per year. No manufacturer I've heard of can expect to mass produce a car using only parts custom made in house, it's just not realistic.

[evmavin]

Why on earth would they "waste" money in developing a proprietary solution.

The current PP6 with Azure Dynamics motor and inverter works just fine. This car could be put into production right now!

There are half a dozen working matched motor controller products out there in the power and torque range that would be perfect for the Aptera. A few of them are availible with a matching transaxle/differential.

Technically there is absolutly no reason for the delay, other than under Paul Wilbur's stirling leadership, there is no money left for production!

I want to see at least Wilbur, Marques and Marion gone.

They had there chance now they need to be fired by the BOD and very very soon!

Until Aptera-heads organise as a customer group, there is nothing we say or do, that will improve the present mess.



I never said they were developing a proprietary solution I said they were having a company spec and inverter for them, most likely based on a "tweaked" existing design. The reason for this is to give them specific I/O control over the related components. The Azure controller is dated and primitive in this aspect and IF they were to use it this would be a reason to have it modified. Lastly, what are these half dozen matched systems? Please don't say Siemens or Brusa as Siemens stopped making inverters recently and Brusa is insanely expensive. Azure is the least expensive but as I have said very dated. Please list any affordable priced systems by name.

[evmavin]

Holy strawman evmavin. How many kit cars use a a drivetrain designed and built from the ground up by the kit car builder? None I know of. At best they source an existing drivetrain and drop it in if they're providing all the parts or just assembling it for a customer. Granted, Aptera probably wouldn't make a kit because there's way more profit in an assembled car (If they get that far), but what's impossible about designing a tweaked 2-series to take off the shelf inexpensive parts, along w/ whatever drivetrain the consumer wants to plop in there? People don't need to design a complex water cooled pack, AC drive, or whatever else. They can go w/ a reasonably priced controller, DC motor, TS LFP pack, and so on, or AC drive, water cooled pack, and so on. If it's an affordable kit, it's up to them what kind of drivetrain they want. They could have an expensive ~100Wh/mile vehicle w/ an AC-150/A123 cells in there, or a cheaper DC version w/ Chinese LFP cells. That's the point of offering a kit starting w/ a shell and letting the consumer decide if they want to buy more of it from the vendor, it's up to the owner where they want to go.


I never suggested an EV drive train designed form the ground up. In fact for the last two plus years I have been stating that they will need to have one specified based on an existing design or design around a specific system. I also never mentioned a water cooled pack, clearly anyone that has a shell and suspension from Aptera with glass can put in a charger and mod a drive train but why? At that point it makes no sense and a bare shell without the suspension and glass would be a nightmare. And the Aptera pack is in a tight space, so unless you want some crapy pack in the back seat better plan on many, many hours of packaging and cooling ducts or charge at 10A. Clearly you have never built an advanced EV conversion in a very small vehicle or any vehicle for that matter or you would understand exactly what I'm speaking about, this is not a compact car with room to spare. The suspension is more complex here do to the angles and packaging. This is a pointless conversation because you are talking about piecing together an unsafe and crappy Aptera with limited range and reliability not a proper vehicle. Not unless you have vast time on your hands. This is theoretical fantasy armchair EV design. Nothing personal, it's just reality.

You never listed your parts suppliers and costs of your project...

[roflwaffle]

The why is the same reason why anyone would want a kit, be it just a shell, and all the way up from there. Instead of whatever proprietary stuff from Aptera w/ whatever specs they could go w/ what they wanted instead. More money spent on power and less on a nav system and climate control, or greater range, or whatever the purchaser of the kit wants, even an open system that they can mod and fix themselves instead, be it more or less reliable. Besides, a kit itself is only a nightmare if it's designed poorly, and if you think Aptera would design a poor kit, then why would you or anyone else even consider purchasing a fully assembled vehicle from them?

You never listed your parts suppliers and costs of your project...That's probably because a kit version of the 2 wouldn't be my project, unless you happen to think I secretly own Aptera. ;)

[evmavin]

The why is the same reason why anyone would want a kit, be it just a shell, and all the way up from there. Instead of whatever proprietary stuff from Aptera w/ whatever specs they could go w/ what they wanted instead. More money spent on power and less on a nav system and climate control, or greater range, or whatever the purchaser of the kit wants, even an open system that they can mod and fix themselves instead, be it more or less reliable. Besides, a kit itself is only a nightmare if it's designed poorly, and if you think Aptera would design a poor kit, then why would you or anyone else even consider purchasing a fully assembled vehicle from them?

That's probably because a kit version of the 2 wouldn't be my project, unless you happen to think I secretly own Aptera. ;)


You are debating a kit and providing no specifics as to what that kit would include and if it were a shell how anyone would reasonably get parts and from where and what it would take in dollars to even put it together in a safe manner that would be reliable. In addition you state omission of the NAV which already is an option and no climate control which is very low relative cost and needed in a vehicle like this unless you are going to have windows that open and be very uncomfortable most of the time. Lastly, you say it's not for you yet you speak in vague terms about how exactly it is possible. If it's a glider it's possible but at that point why bother, as a shell it's a complete waste of time. If you don't think so please be specific as to how it will work.

Cost
Time to assemble
Parts suppliers
Potential functionality of systems
etc..

[roflwaffle]

As it a kit it could include everything from the shell and up from there, designed to accommodate off the shelf common parts that could be bought new or found in most j-yards. I'm pretty sure I already mentioned that. Putting it together in a safe manner depends on the person assembling it, as it does w/ any kit, provided it was designed well in the first place.

Anything new, including CC ain't low cost AFAIK. Even a complete AC/heater from a j-yard is in the hundreds. New it's in the thousands AFAIK, and IIRC, someone mentioned Aptera wanted to go w/ a reversible heat pump system, which would probably be more expensive than an AC system w/ a resistive heater. Anyway, back on topic, the point of a kit is to let the user choose what they want to include beyond the bare minimum. They can just go w/ whatever features they want or don't want. Whether or not it's a waste of time is up to the individual. There are and have been for decades kit cars that start w/ a shell for some time now, so in general they certainly aren't a waste of time for those interested, although they are a relatively small market, and I don't see how an Aptera kit would be any different if they made something like that unless Aptera really screwed it up.

As for cost, I ain't Aptera, so I can't say in terms of the specifics. That said, if they follow the same path as other kit car manufacturers, cost would start around $5k for the shell and move up as the customer wants more included. Generally, parts suppliers would be the OEMs who make the parts they decide to use to provide the donor parts, along w/ used sources (j-yards), just like current kit car manufacturers set up their kits. The functionality of systems depends on what the kit car owner wants, provided they can assemble, and possibly design, what they want, like any other kit car.

[evmavin]

As it a kit it could include everything from the shell and up from there, designed to accommodate off the shelf common parts that could be bought new or found in most j-yards. I'm pretty sure I already mentioned that. Putting it together in a safe manner depends on the person assembling it, as it does w/ any kit, provided it was designed well in the first place.


A kit made only from the shell would useless for the most part as the cost of buying custom glass and the like is prohibitive.



Anything new, including CC ain't low cost AFAIK. Even a complete AC/heater from a j-yard is in the hundreds. New it's in the thousands AFAIK, and IIRC, someone mentioned Aptera wanted to go w/ a reversible heat pump system, which would probably be more expensive than an AC system w/ a resistive heater. Anyway, back on topic, the point of a kit is to let the user choose what they want to include beyond the bare minimum. They can just go w/ whatever features they want or don't want. Whether or not it's a waste of time is up to the individual. There are and have been for decades kit cars that start w/ a shell for some time now, so in general they certainly aren't a waste of time for those interested, although they are a relatively small market, and I don't see how an Aptera kit would be any different if they made something like that unless Aptera really screwed it up.




As for cost, I ain't Aptera, so I can't say in terms of the specifics. That said, if they follow the same path as other kit car manufacturers, cost would start around $5k for the shell and move up as the customer wants more included. Generally, parts suppliers would be the OEMs who make the parts they decide to use to provide the donor parts, along w/ used sources (j-yards), just like current kit car manufacturers set up their kits. The functionality of systems depends on what the kit car owner wants, provided they can assemble, and possibly design, what they want, like any other kit car.



Your premise means Aptera would need to do a complete redesign so their shell would accommodate parts from junkyard or replacement auto parts for the suspension- NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, sorry but it would not be the same design and the is nothing but a wasted time with this approach. This entire kit idea makes no sense from a sellers or buyers perspective in any form as it would be in low demand, not profitable, not feasible from an engineering standpoint from you implementation perspective. If this were an Aptera "shell" that could be dropped on an existing auto chassis then it would makes sense, but it's far from that and it just makes no sense. Sorry, Aptera is just not going to design a shell that could/would work with any part you can buy "off the shelf". I'll take any bet on that.

[evmavin]

As it a kit it could include everything from the shell and up from there, designed to accommodate off the shelf common parts that could be bought new or found in most j-yards. I'm pretty sure I already mentioned that. Putting it together in a safe manner depends on the person assembling it, as it does w/ any kit, provided it was designed well in the first place.


A kit made only from the shell would useless for the most part as the cost of buying custom glass and the like is prohibitive.



Anything new, including CC ain't low cost AFAIK. Even a complete AC/heater from a j-yard is in the hundreds. New it's in the thousands AFAIK, and IIRC, someone mentioned Aptera wanted to go w/ a reversible heat pump system, which would probably be more expensive than an AC system w/ a resistive heater. Anyway, back on topic, the point of a kit is to let the user choose what they want to include beyond the bare minimum. They can just go w/ whatever features they want or don't want. Whether or not it's a waste of time is up to the individual. There are and have been for decades kit cars that start w/ a shell for some time now, so in general they certainly aren't a waste of time for those interested, although they are a relatively small market, and I don't see how an Aptera kit would be any different if they made something like that unless Aptera really screwed it up.




As for cost, I ain't Aptera, so I can't say in terms of the specifics. That said, if they follow the same path as other kit car manufacturers, cost would start around $5k for the shell and move up as the customer wants more included. Generally, parts suppliers would be the OEMs who make the parts they decide to use to provide the donor parts, along w/ used sources (j-yards), just like current kit car manufacturers set up their kits. The functionality of systems depends on what the kit car owner wants, provided they can assemble, and possibly design, what they want, like any other kit car.



Your premise means Aptera would need to do a complete redesign so their shell would accommodate parts from junkyard or replacement auto parts for the suspension- NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, sorry but it would not be the same design and the is nothing but a wasted time with this approach. This entire kit idea makes no sense from a sellers or buyers perspective in any form as it would be in low demand, not profitable, not feasible from an engineering standpoint from you implementation perspective. If this were an Aptera "shell" that could be dropped on an existing auto chassis then it would makes sense, but it's far from that and it just makes no sense. Sorry, Aptera is just not going to design a shell that could/would work with any part you can buy "off the shelf". I'll take any bet on that.

[roflwaffle]

For the love of Pete, I never said it would happen, I just said that I would love a kit. Are you even reading my posts? Besides, kits do make sense from the sellers/buyers perspective or they wouldn't exist, they're just low volume.

There's way more money in building complete vehicles due to volume, maybe even in running the company into the ground before getting that far because of the way the company is set up. That was certainly the case for most of the large financials.

If someone, Aptera or not, decided to go w/ a LEV kit, then just like any other kit car manufacturer, they would redesign it to use off the shelf parts, and so on. I've been over all of this before and there are many businesses doing just fine offering kits w/ different levels of completeness as they have been for decades. I'm not saying Aptera will do it, just that I think it would be nice if they, or even someone else, did.

[drivin98]

Well, it's not an Aptera but it bills itself as "the next best thing (http://www.bugev.net/)" and it comes in a kit. It's like a mini Aptera.
http://www.bugev.net/images/Gallery/media/buge_pro_2_14.jpg

[evmavin]

For the love of Pete, I never said it would happen, I just said that I would love a kit. Are you even reading my posts? Besides, kits do make sense from the sellers/buyers perspective or they wouldn't exist, they're just low volume.

There's way more money in building complete vehicles due to volume, maybe even in running the company into the ground before getting that far because of the way the company is set up. That was certainly the case for most of the large financials.

If someone, Aptera or not, decided to go w/ a LEV kit, then just like any other kit car manufacturer, they would redesign it to use off the shelf parts, and so on. I've been over all of this before and there are many businesses doing just fine offering kits w/ different levels of completeness as they have been for decades. I'm not saying Aptera will do it, just that I think it would be nice if they, or even someone else, did.


I would love a kit as well, every point I have posted is about the fact that the kit you propose is not feasible. Why don't you propose something feasible as this is about the possibility of a kit, not unrealistic ideas about getting parts from junkyards for an Aptera shell which will not happen and they will never design to make happen as it makes no sense. You are suggesting a fantasy kit, not something that is viable based on your suggestions, with the exception that they could sell anything but you are not going to make it work with parts off other cars etc. Yet you keep suggesting your model for a kit will work. It won't as you have presented it. Present a feasible option.

[OC-LA driver]

Would it be cool if there were a kit? Sure. Especially if there's no completed car for sale.

Will the current configuration work as a kit? Probably not, based on what we think we know about the current configuration.

Can we agree and calm down?

:indifferent0022:

[roflwaffle]

I would love a kit as well, every point I have posted is about the fact that the kit you propose is not feasible. Why don't you propose something feasible as this is about the possibility of a kit, not unrealistic ideas about getting parts from junkyards for an Aptera shell which will not happen and they will never design to make happen as it makes no sense. You are suggesting a fantasy kit, not something that is viable based on your suggestions, with the exception that they could sell anything but you are not going to make it work with parts off other cars etc. Yet you keep suggesting your model for a kit will work. It won't as you have presented it. Present a feasible option.I don't buy it. If every point you posted wasn't feasible we wouldn't have kits in the first place, but we do. There have been kits around for the past few decades, probably before that, and there are kits out there now. They're low volume, aimed at the enthusiast/tinkerer, and come in all sorts of stages, from bare unpainted shells to kits that have everything or almost everything. Most of them tend to be designed around common existing parts, of which the cheapest source tends to be j-yards or parted cars, because doing otherwise would make them too costly, and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel given how many of them are available. A LEV isn't some magical vehicle that can't use any existing parts. Just like any other kit a reasonable LEV kit could be designed to use common/cheap parts, and like I said before, while I doubt Aptera would do that because it's more profitable to mass produce cars, maybe even to just run the business into the ground (god forbid), that doesn't mean that they, or anyone else, couldn't do it.

[evmavin]

I don't buy it. If every point you posted wasn't feasible we wouldn't have kits in the first place, but we do. There have been kits around for the past few decades, probably before that, and there are kits out there now. They're low volume, aimed at the enthusiast/tinkerer, and come in all sorts of stages, from bare unpainted shells to kits that have everything or almost everything. Most of them tend to be designed around common existing parts, of which the cheapest source tends to be j-yards or parted cars, because doing otherwise would make them too costly, and there's no reason to reinvent the wheel given how many of them are available. A LEV isn't some magical vehicle that can't use any existing parts. Just like any other kit a reasonable LEV kit could be designed to use common/cheap parts, and like I said before, while I doubt Aptera would do that because it's more profitable to mass produce cars, maybe even to just run the business into the ground (god forbid), that doesn't mean that they, or anyone else, couldn't do it.


Name one advanced EV composite kit that can use universal parts similar to the Aptera. Nothing personal but I don't think you understand the differences in other kits VS this particular vehicle and its specific engineering challenges , this is a very unique vehicle for design, packaging and assembly, if it were not it would be much further along. I am very familiar with car kits, custom fabrication, EV building and related advanced components and this vehicle is very different so please stop comparing apples to oranges and make some specific and realistic analogies. Even If Aptera wanted to make a kit it makes little to no sense for many reasons, the most blaring is that they would sell only a hand full based on your non-specific proposals and abstract comparisons. If you want to talk specifics I will be glad to engage you but so far your proposals are abstract ideas that have huge holes. Talk specifics about an APTERA kit and how parts will be sourced and we can continue, until then it's abstract nonsense.


Here:

APTERA KIT 1- Aptera supplies all the parts and a video and manual to put it together- Fail. Few would buy this and it would be a huge undertaking for Aptera.


Kit 2- Aptera sells shells, again very few sales to super tech people and prohibitive cost as the glass and suspension and all the other parts would be extremely high cost to have made. Fail.

Kit 3- A glider (that's a fully rolling unit with no drive system, batteries, interior, etc) At this level it makes more sense to buy a completed car- Fail

Kit 4- The "fantasy kit". Aptera completely re designs a car so it fits other car parts, in short, they can't and wont because the design is too specific to be altered in such a way. Fail



So what is your kit solution and how is it made up. Please list a few details and how it will be comprised and why it will work, please omit the idea of junk yard parts because that is not even viable. Let's be clear- kits make complete sense for those types of vehicles and in many forms and configurations, including junk yard parts. So take a real stab at this with some "business plan" application to the solution. Do a couple options.


This thread is starting to sound like the guy who was going to do an advanced EV conversion for $10-15K, or like almost every person who does an EV conversion for the first time and realizes there is more to it then they ever imagined. The engineer types run the numbers, do their charts and excel sheets, build everything and in the end are stumped at why the range is less than half of what they thought it should be. Almost everyone is humbled by a decent EV conversion, even those that are highly skilled. I bet there are some on this forum.

[Rhodomel]

I think that Paul Wilbur is a two-timer scammer. What did he really achieved? If he gets paid handsomely for not achieving any real value added work, then he in effect is a scammer.

While receiving exorbitant salaries from the seed money gathered by Aptera, he may have been receiving money from OPEC and the oil industries to plow Aptera down to oblivion. He may be a three-time dealer too, receiving payoff from the existing car manufacturers being threatened by Aptera's introduction. These car manufacturers want to fleece out the customers during the transition into electric cars, and they want controlled transition, maximizing profit each miniscule step of the way, until the same kind of people in the oil industry have completely shifted over into supplying electric energy, so that the fleecing of consumers for their transportation must go on forever.

Obviously Aptera's efficiency is a threat to the very lucrative relationship between car manufacturers and the oil industry if its adoption, along with its low economic introductory price is too rapid.

Paul Wilbur is the perfect scheming greedy inhuman creature to get the job done. And he has succeeded in delaying Aptera.

[Stunt Driver]

Well, it's not an Aptera but it bills itself as "the next best thing (http://www.bugev.net/)" and it comes in a kit. It's like a mini Aptera.
http://www.bugev.net/images/Gallery/media/buge_pro_2_14.jpg

It's a bycicle :) ANd we are talking cars here:)

[turbo wing]

Obviously Aptera's efficiency is a threat to the very lucrative relationship between car manufacturers and the oil industry if its adoption, along with its low economic introductory price is too rapid.

Paul Wilbur is the perfect scheming greedy inhuman creature to get the job done. And he has succeeded in delaying Aptera.

I posted several months ago that Paul will sink Aptera the same way he did Steve Salene and Chrysler, There's no conspiracy about oil companies and car manufacturers paying off Paul, he's just a freaking parasite that needs to be exterminated and sooner rather then later

[evmavin]

I posted several months ago that Paul will sink Aptera the same way he did Steve Salene and Chrysler, There's no conspiracy about oil companies and car manufacturers paying off Paul, he's just a freaking parasite that needs to be exterminated and sooner rather then later


Out of curiosity, what is the basis of your claim? Those are strong words and I was wondering what solid information leads you to such a conclusion. He may end up being responsible for the company failure but I wonder how anyone knows if it was not doomed regardless of his role and if he was taking the right steps for the long run. Regardless if they do fold and take deposits with them I will hold him personally responsible and I would not want to be in his shoes when the deposit holders want their money back. That would be ugly.

[Rhodomel]

The CEO's are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a company that they're heading. If they get lion share of true responsibilities, they get lion share of the benefits. If they get a lion share of salaries without any accountability, then they are a parasite that must be exterminated. You should know that parasitic CEO's like Paul Wilbur got golden parachutes and stash of money after they plowed down the companies they worked for. You can search for all the companies that Paul Wilbur worked for and see how much money he got rewarded after leading it to financial ruins. Another parasite is the football star who headed Home Depot. He too got stash of money when they at last fired him to stop the bleeding from the parasite.

Why are the board members permitting such excesses that allow parasitic CEO's to thrive?

[turbo wing]

Out of curiosity, what is the basis of your claim? Those are strong words and I was wondering what solid information leads you to such a conclusion. He may end up being responsible for the company failure but I wonder how anyone knows if it was not doomed regardless of his role and if he was taking the right steps for the long run. Regardless if they do fold and take deposits with them I will hold him personally responsible and I would not want to be in his shoes when the deposit holders want their money back. That would be ugly.


On another project I'm working on I was in meetings with the folks at Selene (St*** included) and heard from them just how much he cost them directly and the bull sh*t he caused them,,,, also was told of the ugly situation that happened at Chrysler do to his antics. its as close to the horses mouth as you can get,

[roflwaffle]

Name one advanced EV composite kit that can use universal parts similar to the Aptera.Name one mass produced low drag EV that can go 100+ miles in real world conditions. If something isn't available now it must not be possible, eh? ;)
Nothing personal but I don't think you understand the differences in other kits VS this particular vehicle and its specific engineering challenges , this is a very unique vehicle for design, packaging and assembly, if it were not it would be much further along. I am very familiar with car kits, custom fabrication, EV building and related advanced components and this vehicle is very different so please stop comparing apples to oranges and make some specific and realistic analogies.Give it up for appeals to authority! :tongue0015:
Even If Aptera wanted to make a kit it makes little to no sense for many reasons, the most blaring is that they would sell only a hand full based on your non-specific proposals and abstract comparisons.I'm not saying they're likely to sell a kit, I'm just saying it's possible for them or someone else to do so.
If you want to talk specifics I will be glad to engage you but so far your proposals are abstract ideas that have huge holes. Talk specifics about an APTERA kit and how parts will be sourced and we can continue, until then it's abstract nonsense.Every single affordable kit car out now is based on existing production parts. Why would another kit car be any different?
Here:

APTERA KIT 1- Aptera supplies all the parts and a video and manual to put it together- Fail. Few would buy this and it would be a huge undertaking for Aptera.


Kit 2- Aptera sells shells, again very few sales to super tech people and prohibitive cost as the glass and suspension and all the other parts would be extremely high cost to have made. Fail.

Kit 3- A glider (that's a fully rolling unit with no drive system, batteries, interior, etc) At this level it makes more sense to buy a completed car- Fail

Kit 4- The "fantasy kit". Aptera completely re designs a car so it fits other car parts, in short, they can't and wont because the design is too specific to be altered in such a way. FailAll those options attempted by Aptera or anyone else would clearly fail because you wrote fail in them, brilliant! It's not as if tweaking some design is anything new. Someone building a kit LEV does not have to make it identical within a percent of an existing design, they just have to make a LEV. Besides, it's not like low drag is rocket science. Do you really expect me to believe that someone (http://www.aerocivic.com/) can get the Cd of their car within spitting distance of the 2, but Aptera, or anyone else with similar capabilities couldn't design a LEV shell to accept off the shelf components, be them from a j-yard or not? I can certainly see why they would rather sell complete cars, there's way more money in it. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for them ir anyone else to make a kit LEV just because you say so.
So what is your kit solution and how is it made up. Please list a few details and how it will be comprised and why it will work, please omit the idea of junk yard parts because that is not even viable.Junk yard parts aren't viable? Quick, tell these guys (http://www.mnrltd.co.uk/index2.html) to put up a disclaimer before it's too late! It doesn't matter where someone sources the parts from, j-yards/cheap cars just tend to be the cheapest source, although if someone just can't stand buying used for their kit, they could buy from an OEM/aftermarket parts supplier if they've got the extra cash and don't mind parting with it..
Let's be clear- kits make complete sense for those types of vehicles and in many forms and configurations, including junk yard parts. So take a real stab at this with some "business plan" application to the solution. Do a couple options.Kits make complete sense for any low volume vehicle type that is in a small enough niche. Aptera may be on the verge of a large enough niche where mass production is viable, but that doesn't mean there isn't a niche for a kit LEV either, just like their are lotus knockoffs offered as kits while GM still mass produces vettes.
This thread is starting to sound like the guy who was going to do an advanced EV conversion for $10-15K, or like almost every person who does an EV conversion for the first time and realizes there is more to it then they ever imagined. The engineer types run the numbers, do their charts and excel sheets, build everything and in the end are stumped at why the range is less than half of what they thought it should be. Almost everyone is humbled by a decent EV conversion, even those that are highly skilled. I bet there are some on this forum.Sounds like an engineer type who knew nothing about engineering. :character0011:

[evmavin]

Name one mass produced low drag EV that can go 100+ miles in real world conditions. If something isn't available now it must not be possible, eh? ;)
Give it up for appeals to authority! :tongue0015:
I'm not saying they're likely to sell a kit, I'm just saying it's possible for them or someone else to do so.
Every single affordable kit car out now is based on existing production parts. Why would another kit car be any different?
All those options attempted by Aptera or anyone else would clearly fail because you wrote fail in them, brilliant! It's not as if tweaking some design is anything new. Someone building a kit LEV does not have to make it identical within a percent of an existing design, they just have to make a LEV. Besides, it's not like low drag is rocket science. Do you really expect me to believe that someone (http://www.aerocivic.com/) can get the Cd of their car within spitting distance of the 2, but Aptera, or anyone else with similar capabilities couldn't design a LEV shell to accept off the shelf components, be them from a j-yard or not? I can certainly see why they would rather sell complete cars, there's way more money in it. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for them ir anyone else to make a kit LEV just because you say so.
Junk yard parts aren't viable? Quick, tell these guys (http://www.mnrltd.co.uk/index2.html) to put up a disclaimer before it's too late! It doesn't matter where someone sources the parts from, j-yards/cheap cars just tend to be the cheapest source, although if someone just can't stand buying used for their kit, they could buy from an OEM/aftermarket parts supplier if they've got the extra cash and don't mind parting with it..
Kits make complete sense for any low volume vehicle type that is in a small enough niche. Aptera may be on the verge of a large enough niche where mass production is viable, but that doesn't mean there isn't a niche for a kit LEV either, just like their are lotus knockoffs offered as kits while GM still mass produces vettes.
Sounds like an engineer type who knew nothing about engineering. :character0011:


Once again you have twisted my points out of context in relation to your previous posts in epic FOX News style. If you can address the points and not take them out of context we will have a debate, otherwise it's silly banter.

[roflwaffle]

My post was as much Fox News stylez as the one I was responding to. Just saying something = Fail doesn't make it fail. For that matter, claiming that stuff isn't viable when it's currently done is also nuts.

[basjoos]

Even if Aptera doesn't pan out, at least I still have my homebuilt 0.17 Cd Aerocivic that I've driven for over 100,000 miles since I aeromodded it and is the closest thing to an Aptera on the road today. After I retire and don't need to travel long distances, I may convert it to an EV.

[virtualeric]

Even if Aptera doesn't pan out, at least I still have my homebuilt 0.17 Cd Aerocivic that I've driven for over 100,000 miles since I aeromodded it and is the closest thing to an Aptera on the road today. After I retire and don't need to travel long distances, I may convert it to an EV.
Do you have a website with some photos of that? I'd like to check it out. Things are damn quiet here. January should provide some scraps and bones for us....unfortunately those scraps and bones might be all that's left of Aptera. The DOE has a lot of competition vying for those loans.

[NeilBlanchard]

You can see it at http://aerocivic.com/

[palmer_md]

http://ecomodder.com/forum/103554-post37.html

Here is something we can do with those original molds. We purchase a Smart ForTwo and aeromodify it using the back half of the Aptera.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/botsapper/smartera.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/botsapper/smartera-2.jpg

[kerbe]

Ok, now THAT'S pretty cute!

[Danny]

Nicely done.

Oh, if it were only that simple. I lose just a little more hope each day of ever getting my Aptera.

[byplug]

http://ecomodder.com/forum/103554-post37.html

Here is something we can do with those original molds. We purchase a Smart ForTwo and aeromodify it using the back half of the Aptera.

http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/botsapper/smartera.jpg
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq20/botsapper/smartera-2.jpg

...I like the carry of the line from the wheel pants through the body...
...a third or fourth seat and ..."bye aptera"

[G-Jet]

Kind of ironic as the designer worked on the original smart car as well as did the full design of the Aptera. Bye indeed.

G

[palmer_md]

...I like the carry of the line from the wheel pants through the body...
...a third or fourth seat and ..."bye aptera"

The funny thing is that by the time Aptera was done modifying things to get more headroom and roll down windows they pretty much ended up with this design. Extend the front wheels away from the body for stability and it is the same car.