Production Methods and Procedures?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I'm getting worn out by the bad news, and I'm hoping for some good discussion: remember the pictures of the alignment jigs that are/were used to join the top and the bottom parts of the main part of the chassis? Will the "production" version of the 2e (PP7?) be done the same way?

Will each of the composite pieces be molded and then assembled; and glass installed? The front and rear suspension sub-frames are fabricated and then added to the composite assemblies? And then the electrics get installed; and then the interior seats and dash, etc.?

Seems to me to be a stationary assembly job? Has anybody worked on this sort of a thing?

[JustWilliam]

Wow Neil! You ask GREAT questions and propose relevant discussion.

Successful manufacturers are spending a TON of R&D money on streamlining production to increase efficiency and thus profit margins. Witness VW and it's goals for the latest Golf design update.

I wish I had some inside info to share, but I'll have to be satisfied with sharing your curiosity...

The latest "design renderings" we have seen show obvious differences from PP6. For instance, the "nose cone"/front bumper now appears to be separate from the rest of the body forward of the A pillar, which would make minor front end impacts easier and cheaper to repair. But how does it affect the production process and the crucial cost vs benefit equation for a limited production vehicle that aspires to a California specific launch?

Thanks to Neil for proposing a PRODUCT based discussion in the midst of an ugly personnel based crises.

[rayfellow]

Say - Aptera Mgnt. - PW & Co. Here's and area that you can talk about that has little to do with any pissing contests between you and SF.

It would be so reassuring to know how you plan to actually build the Aptera in 2010. Please put our worries to rest and share.

Thanks

[garygid]

If they get "sufficient" funding, what are "their" plans for putting something into production: the steps and the time line?

1. Talk about what vehicle will be produced, 2 months?
2. Re-engineer it due to the changing nature of the competition, 12 months?
3. Begin construction of production-test vehicles, 4 months?
4. Conclude that more and different testing needs to be done, 3 months?
5. Re-design the tests, 2 months?
6. Apply for government approval to use the new tests, 3 months?
7. Put out a Newsletter saying that the windows need to be re-designed for the new tests, but that everything is on track for a 2013 limited production, 1 month?
8. Wait for more funding to actually begin testing, 7 months?

Or, maybe they have better plans?

When do they plan to build the FIRST production prototype?
(Probably needs to be done before a poduction line is built, right?)

[zak650]

In the 1970's I solved the mating of the two halves of Vetter Windjammer motorcycle fairings with a very simple procedure. the problem was the multiple fixtures it took to meet the sales demand each adding it's own inaccuracies to the production process.

The solution: I installed alignment cones in the molds for each half. then the glue that holds the two parts together was applied and the two halves ultrasonically spot welded together. The fairings could then be removed from the spot welding fixture and placed on a conveyor while the glue cured. Voila, one precision fixture equaled 500 motorcycle fairings / day.

Zak

[1051]

Do we even know it the have finished the molds and any interior modifications for the new design yet?

[NeilBlanchard]

http://windways.org/aptera/images/news%20letter/sunroof.jpg

(Where is the original of this image? I have not received the newsletter, yet.)

Aptera's Beach Body (evolution of the 2-series composite body)

When I came on board a year ago, it was clear that the approach to composites was useful to produce the initial concept vehicles, but was inadequate for producing a vehicle at any scale. The two primary fronts included product development and process development, both of which required a substantial commitment of resources and time.

Product Development: The initial body design had the vehicle split top to bottom with a joint, which extended the entire length of the vehicle. As you can imagine, this was a major issue from both a manufacturability and warranty perspective. The problems resulting from this construction included:

1. Manufacturability: The butt joint, the resin, and the material choices made the ability to match components a major issue and would have severely limited production and product quality. The vehicles that could be produced with this scheme would have had substantially higher costs to achieve an acceptable finish due to seam treatment being in direct view of customer sight lines.

2. Warranty: The butt joint was placed directly in an expected impact zone, which meant even low speed crashes would result in the integrity of the body being severely compromised. Butt joints are weak and difficult to control for body alignment. The safety of the vehicle in side impact collisions would be substantially less than a body with properly designed and placed joints.

Process Development:

1. Manufacturability: The initial materials and processes used were suitable for demonstrating the powerful application of composites in a one-off mode, but were not adequate for high quality, cost effective manufacturing.

2. FMVSS Compliance: These same materials would not have passed the FMVSS standards for flammability.

The interest, excitement, and anticipation of the vehicle has caused many to speculate and over simplify the need for our re-design efforts, which is very understandable given how revolutionary a vehicle like ours will be. However, we could not move forward with those kinds of serious, identifiable, and solvable issues.

We only get one first impression as we deliver the promise while caring for the safety and confidence of our customers.

The re-design of the body enabled us to resolve these issues from a structural standpoint while enabling us to develop potentially compelling alternative finish methods. These finish methods will require less capital and have less impact on the environment. That means a less expensive and more earth friendly vehicle! The process re-design is something that we have not discussed publicly, but it too took the same type of time commitment to get right using best practice tools like Six Sigma. Both of these efforts were imperative if Aptera was to stay true to the dream of lightweight, aerodynamic, and safe vehicles. Had we cut the corner, we would have killed the world's most efficient EV. Having taken the time and effort, we insured its ability to flourish.


-David Oakley

I have always wondered about the massive jig that align the major pieces of the chassis -- it looked impossible to do it quickly and with precision.

I can't tell from the "exploded" image whether they are actual components or whether they are cut as part of the illustration. The door openings are repeated in different pieces. Unless, some are "frame" pieces and some are "skin" pieces?

What about the weight?

[randyd]

You may have already found the links you were looking for, but in case you have not, the two exploded views are here (http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/3.jpg?) and here (http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/4.jpg?).

[NeilBlanchard]

Thanks for them -- I had not found them. The first one:
http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/3.jpg
...looks to be PP6.

The second one:
http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/4.jpg
...appears to be the production model (what name do we use now - "beach body"?). And it does look like parts of it are steel?

[lapwing]

From the look of it they are thinking along the type of fiber reinforced composite plastics production described here....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3SqGDZel68

Look at the work done by the Rocky Mountain Institute on the Hypercar &
Amory Lovins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amory_Lovins

http://move.rmi.org/markets-in-motion/case-studies

http://www.rmi.org/rmi/Blog

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercar

Edit: No BS - if Aptera is going this route they are going to need more than $75 million to get it done.

[lapwing]

I was thinking that contrary to what was conveyed in the news letter about finishing times for high volume production of the PP6 "two halves" issue, the seam can be stronger than the rest of the car with a simple change in composite resins.

I have built boats for a living and faced exactly this type of isssue at the hull to deck join. A simple butt joint at the very point most likely to take impact from the dock.

It's really easy. You add glass tape and resin on the inside (epoxy for high strength secondary bonding). You add a foam stringer for stiffness if it's not already there. On the outside you fill very sparingly with microlight and epoxy, sand and paint. It takes the kind of skill that 10 days and 20 cars will perfect. Special shaped sqeegee tools can make the final rub down with a vacuum sander trivial. Skill yes. Hard nope!

If that's too much trouble then you simply run trim to hide the seam, and design the seam so that trim helps the line. In the final anaysis the seam is stronger than the hull or deck alone when done. Easy peasy!

[lapwing]

http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/4.jpg
...appears to be the production model (what name do we use now - "beach body"?). And it does look like parts of it are steel?

Pretty sure it's composite, and having put in some design thought I find it conceptually intrigue-ing. Each part has a "finished surface" and a series of tabs with very significant surface area. I am liking this.

So the idea is that you have a dozen or so separate body parts that are then clipped together, with some type of ?? thermoset resin? on the tabs. a quick jig some heat and viola a shell.

The complex seams are where you would expect them on any car, so are "acceptable". It would be fast to mass produce the individual parts using vacuum formed heat cured composite. The fiber would still be glass.

High density structural foam shapes can be pre CNC machined or even thremo formed (faster) for "inclusion" in the composite part lay-up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tODrifW6LQQ

I am very enthused!:jumping0027: .

However, this kind of approach is going to require lots and lots of money! I have seen it done before in composite airframe construction. It's do-able! Is it the way to go on a niche vehicle though?

I dunno!

Edit: Certainly there are a lot of details of the whole process on the net, but this is the best I have found so far.....

http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/tailored-carbon-fiber-blanks-set-to-move-into-steel-stamping-arena.aspx

Edit:
Also if you look at lecture 3 here http://www.rmi.org/rmi/Stanford+Energy+Lectures around minute 34 you should see a familiar part list to the Aptera blow up above.

(alternate u-tube link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D-uhKHy7mk )

Here is a link to the type of technology that could be used making the Aptera parts before they are bonded together.

http://www.compositesworld.com/articles/thermoformable-composite-panels-part-1.aspx

[PHEVadvocate]

In the news letter the Six Sigma process was mentioned, it is a very good engineering practice to follow for new product development. One of the fist and most important things is this process is understanding the “Voice of the Customer”. If they are really following Six Sigma properly, then we should be happy with the end result. It means listening to us and establishing the program goals to satisfy us! KarenRei, see if they are really following this process, ask them what were their main CTQ's (Critical to Quality) characteristics were.

[evmavin]

In the news letter the Six Sigma process was mentioned, it is a very good engineering practice to follow for new product development. One of the fist and most important things is this process is understanding the “Voice of the Customer”. If they are really following Six Sigma properly, then we should be happy with the end result. It means listening to us and establishing the program goals to satisfy us! KarenRei, see if they are really following this process, ask them what were their main CTQ's (Critical to Quality) characteristics were.


Welcome, you have some catching up to do on customer service and communication. Forget that part of the process exists in a practical form and you are caught up. "Voice of the Customer", that must be an imaginary voice. Just read the bi-yearly newsletter and drink the cool aide, you will be fine. We all drink from the same cup now:)

[painfully hopeful]

Six Sigma is a fatuous, and unrealistic system that is used as puffery on many occasions in an attempt to impress or browbeat. I remember when we got a talk from a Motorola exec (big Six Sigma fanz) about the system. We pointed out that his slides contained 37 errors. Remember Aptera at this point is not trying to win a Malcolm Baldridge award, they are trying to get into the market with a product. While Motorola obsessed internally about Six Sigma, they have gotten their butts handed to them on a platter by the likes of Apple, who somehow have managed to deliver worldbeating and reliable products without such silliness...

For those of you wondering what Six Sigma means, here you go. As you can see, Aptera will have to sell quite a few units to approach proof of compliance...

The term "Six Sigma" comes from a field of statistics known as process capability studies. Originally, it referred to the ability of manufacturing processes to produce a very high proportion of output within specification. Processes that operate with "six sigma quality" over the short term are assumed to produce long-term defect levels below 3.4 defects per million opportunities (DPMO).[7][8] Six Sigma's implicit goal is to improve all processes to that level of quality or better.

Finally, another note of interest- among the list of companies claiming to have implemented "Six Sigma": Deplhi Corporation- wonder where we've heard of them recently? Did that system extend to their accounting?

[Matthijs]

Maybe a bit off topic. But could the change of materials or production could have anything to do with patents owned by Steve Fambro? I do not recall exactly but I heard Steve had patents on the construction or materials.

[PHEVadvocate]

Six Sigma is a culture change, a set of tools, and a set of processes, but it is not a substitute for sound judgment. Six Sigma is set of very powerful tools and processes, if used properly. The aircraft industry and their suppliers like GE rely on Six Sigma for their critical components and systems, because it adds the extra rigor they need in their industry.

I have seen Six Sigma work and I have seen it fail. Usually when it fails the team using it does not really understand it or they are just pretending to follow it. I have seen a lot of lip service at companies about Six Sigma, but only a few do it right or do it well.

I hope PW used a "sound judgment" when he decided to change the vehicle and delay releasing it again. Does any body know if PW or anyone at Aptera has had Six Sigma green or black belt training or are they just blowing smoke? Six Sigma and Best Practices are sometimes (buzz words) used to inflate the perceived capabilities of a company.

I agree with "painfully hopeful", that it would be foolish for Aptera to try to make it to 3.4 DPMO at this stage. But, they should be using the new design tools and processes of Six Sigma or another tool to help make sound judgements.

Painfully hopeful: Apple may use the Six Sigma process, but they just may not be bragging about it. Apple is known for being pretty closed mouthed when they want to be. What’s your source?

[lapwing]

Maybe a bit off topic. But could the change of materials or production could have anything to do with patents owned by Steve Fambro? I do not recall exactly but I heard Steve had patents on the construction or materials.

I doubt there is or was a patent.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2005/0048667.html

is the only Steve Fambro patent I could find, and refers to work done in biotech (probably at Ilumina in Carlsblad CA).

http://venturebeatprofiles.com/person/profile/steve-fambro

Chris Anthony however, might have a pending one somewhere but a search turned up nada!

The process was refered to as Panelized Automated Composite Construction , and the only patents turning up under those key words are by Boeing regarding the dream liner. http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080277531

It is unlikely that those would stand up anyway, as Amory Lovins work encompasses the same stuff, precedes it, and as was his intent, that is public domain.

I love that man!

[lapwing]

Six Sigma is a culture change, a set of tools, and a set of processes, but it is not a substitute for sound judgment. ........

Isn't that the truth. The process is completely supurfluous to a startup company this size!

I know someone will jump on me, but come on! Deep Six is all this overhead will get ya.:sign0019:

[JimmyDreams]

Is Six Sigma anything like ISO9000? From the cheap seats, that ISO crap was just that: crap.

I hate business-speak. It does little to forward design/thinking/productivity, but makes it LOOK like you are.

grumble grumble bitch whine...

[palmer_md]

All of these links to McLovin keep cracking me up.

It is unlikely that those would stand up anyway, as Amory Lovins work encompasses the same stuff, precedes it, and as was his intent, that is public domain.

I love that man!

http://shotpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/mclovin.jpg

[Rat]

Is Six Sigma anything like ISO9000? From the cheap seats, that ISO crap was just that: crap. I hate business-speak...grumble grumble bitch whine...
Me too. Six Sigma was one of the affiliated partnerships my Dad invested in and it turned out to be a Ponzi scheme. See PinnFund (http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/lr17321.htm). He lost over $2 million ($1 million borrowed) and went bankrupt. Anyone, including crooks, can use the name or phrase. It's meaningless.

[Holz]

The component fit seems pretty boxy to me... a lot more like your average 4-wheel vehicle. And why is the wheel housing left off the drawings for the rear wheel? (wheels?!) Or is that still in question as they figure out "The re-design of the body"?

[10.5]

Thanks for them -- I had not found them. The first one:
http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/3.jpg
...looks to be PP6.

The second one:
http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs042/1102835539809/img/4.jpg
...appears to be the production model (what name do we use now - "beach body"?). And it does look like parts of it are steel?


Compared to the one you say looks like PP6, the BB (beach-body) model looks 'stubbier', it might just be a perspective thing, but the BB model looks shorter.

[palmer_md]

Compared to the one you say looks like PP6, the BB (beach-body) model looks 'stubbier', it might just be a perspective thing, but the BB model looks shorter.

There is an additional piece not shown in the back of the car which would make it longer. The bumper piece is not shown.

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/images/Aptera/8-4aptera2eRevH%20%28reduced%29.jpg

[10.5]

There is an additional piece not shown in the back of the car which would make it longer. The bumper piece is not shown.

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/images/Aptera/8-4aptera2eRevH%20%28reduced%29.jpg


Eh, I don't like the enclosed taillights,and the t-shaped end.

[evmavin]

Funny, the enclosed tail lights look like they take cues from the rear of a new Dodge Charger.The rear is a bit ugly vs. the old design, but then again so is the interior.

[10.5]

They kinda remind me of Eagle Talon/Mitsubishi Eclipse taillights:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z91/95GSX6Bolt/carmen6.jpg

I don't think I'd buy this Aptera.

[Apt3448]

Taste and all that... I really like what Jason hill did with the latest version. I like the slightly rounded tail and the recessed lights (as will anybody ever backing into something, I'm guessing). And the T-shape is unlike anything and to me is both elegant and distinctive. In the older version the T-shape was less resolved.

[garygid]

To me, it looks like there are more body seams, not less.

Also, it does not look like (from these parts) there is much
supporting the roof anymore. Maybe one roll-bar?

Two or 3 strong, major parts to many, cosmetic-appearing parts ...
Where is the strength and SAFETY in this "plan"?

[palmer_md]

To me, it looks like there are more body seams, not less.

Also, it does not look like (from these parts) there is much
supporting the roof anymore. Maybe one roll-bar?

Two or 3 strong, major parts to many, cosmetic-appearing parts ...
Where is the strength and SAFETY in this "plan"?

Actually the roll bar was in the original design. It appears that they removed the roll bar in the new design.