Nissan Leaf as Aptera alternative? REALLY?

[JustWilliam]

Reading so many incredible posts from forum members in the midst all the recent Aptera turmoil has been fascinating. For the most part, this an incredibly smart, passionate and well spoken group and I am grateful and humbled to be among you.

The biggest surprise for me personally has been the considerable amount of enthusiasm for the Nissan Leaf as an Aptera alternative. I have no problem with this opinion, with the Leaf, or with Nissan. But being the curious sort, it brings up a SERIOUS question and I hope fellow forum members will indulge me and provide some insight.

If you remove pure electric propulsion from the comparison, these vehicles are about as different as they could possibly be. The Leaf is a typical five door, five passenger family hatchback, and it's appearance is it's most non-conformist feature. The Aptera on the other hand, is remarkable for throwing all convention to the wind in order to maximize efficiency through light weight and aerodynamics. With an ICE, the Aptera would STILL be groundbreaking. A paragon of efficiency and a triumph of form determined by function. The Leaf would simply be a family hatchback with distinctive styling.

I have nothing but admiration for those who simply want to own and drive the first functional and affordable EV available. And anyone who cares can't help but being discouraged by endless delays and questionable management. But I can't help but see it as further proof that Aptera is relying on a niche that is simply too small to suggest financial viability and success.

Can the Aptera succeed simply by virtue of it's pursuit of ultimate efficiency, or will it be lost in a sea of more mainstream electric vehicles released in the next 12 to 24 months? Share your opinion and TESTIFY!

[evmavin]

I believe Aptera can survive, influence the EV market direction and evolve into a surviving venture. The key to this is that the management of Aptera completely understands its market and dedicated reservation holders that make this product a reality and that they have as much or more passion toward the product than the perspective purchasers. Unfortunately there seems to be an imbalance in this equation to the degree where the potential customers seem to have more of a vested interest in communicating, promoting and protecting the product then Aptera does. If this perception is untrue, then perhaps Aptera will take the simple step to set the record straight to their supporters DIRECTLY. Otherwise I think they are doing a great job at marketing the leaf for Nissan and handing them many of their customers that may have never even considered a Leaf as an alternative. In many ways the Aptera has become a marketing boom for Nissan rather than a competitor. If I worked for Nissan I would be hoping Aptera just keeps doing exactly what they have been, alienating customers and sending them across the street. Aptera could have done some serious damage control with a simple keyboard. I called the Nissan hotline the other day, they seemed interested to speak to a potential customer, I found that appealing.

[palmer_md]

I believe Aptera can survive, influence the EV market direction and evolve into a surviving venture. The key to this is that the management of Aptera completely understands its market and dedicated reservation holders that make this product a reality and that they have as much or more passion toward the product than the perspective purchasers. Unfortunately there seems to be an imbalance in this equation to the degree where the potential customers seem to have more of a vested interest in communicating, promoting and protecting the product then Aptera does. If this perception is untrue, then perhaps Aptera will take the simple step to set the record straight to their supporters DIRECTLY. Otherwise I think they are doing a great job at marketing the leaf for Nissan and handing them many of their customers that may have never even considered a Leaf as an alternative. In many ways the Aptera has become a marketing boom for Nissan rather than a competitor. If I worked for Nissan I would be hoping Aptera just keeps doing exactly what they have been, alienating customers and sending them across the street. Aptera could have done some serious damage control with a simple keyboard. I called the Nissan hotline the other day, they seemed interested to speak to a potential customer, I found that appealing.

Well said.

[jkyu99]

You may be right. It wasn't just the looks. It was the freedom from gasoline during a 50 mile round trip freeway commute and in the same price range as my current hybrid. It didn't need exotic looks. That was just a fun piece. Carpool lane was an added plus. The Leaf could fit the bill. Several years ago, when I put down my deposit, there was nothing on the horizon. Tesla was just an exotic based upon it's price.

[garygid]

The Leaf might have only half the real, practical range of the Aptera, but the Leaf appears to be comming sooner. Since I need more than 50 "real" miles, I bought a Prius, for now.

[evmavin]

The Leaf might have only half the real, practical range of the Aptera, but the Leaf appears to be comming sooner. Since I need more than 50 "real" miles, I bought a Prius, for now.

I thought the Leaf has only a 24kwh pack? Even the small Think is about 33kwh I believe, 24kwh is small for that size vehicle.

[Sapphire Dragon]

Personally, I'm not considering the Leaf as an Aptera alternative. I won't consider any other car as an Aptera alternative. I'm sticking with Aptera, period. Aptera is the epitome of eco-friendliness, and I will stay with it. Eventually, I see Wilbur making Aptera another Saleen, and having either Google or Subaru pick it up and bring it back to its former glory (hopefully with Fambro and Anthony & co. as well). I'm willing to wait that long for it, if it's required.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Personally, I'm not considering the Leaf as an Aptera alternative.

If the Leaf ships, and it has a 100 mile range, wouldn't the question become is the Aptera a viable alternative to the Leaf?

Aside from range,does Aptera offer any advantages?

[evmavin]

If the Leaf ships, and it has a 100 mile range, wouldn't the question become is the Aptera a viable alternative to the Leaf?

Aside from range,does Aptera offer any advantages?

efficiency...

[Ardie3301]

For the Leaf to be a viable alternative to the 2e, it would have to
a) have a similar range (100+ miles @ 70 mph, with 500 lbs payload),
b) sell, with its battery, in the neighborhood of $30,000-ish.

(I don't think that the vehicle efficiency is nearly as important as at least offering a vehicle with the same range and payload. If it takes half again as much juice to recharge, so be it. Most of us electricky guys are not really planning on recharging anywhere else but our home, and maybe, the office, so quick recharging stations are not really part of the picture. We've got all night or all day.)

If the Leaf can offer that, then Aptera will have a battle on its hands.

-- Ardie

[evmavin]

For the Leaf to be a viable alternative to the 2e, it would have to
a) have a similar range (100+ miles @ 70 mph, with 500 lbs payload),
b) sell, with its battery, in the neighborhood of $30,000-ish.

(I don't think that the vehicle efficiency is nearly as important as at least offering a vehicle with the same range and payload. If it takes half again as much juice to recharge, so be it. Most of us electricky guys are not really planning on recharging anywhere else but our home, and maybe, the office, so quick recharging stations are not really part of the picture. We've got all night or all day.)

If the Leaf can offer that, then Aptera will have a battle on its hands.

-- Ardie

Not if you pay $.32 per KWH plus. The leaf will need at least a 33KWH pack to get a real world 100 mile range.

[Ardie3301]

You see, that's one of my points. When people buy, they won't be looking at complicated KWh ratings, recharge times, cost per kilowatt hour at 1:00am *if* they sign up for the service - they'll be looking at whether this car will take them from A to B and back again on a single charge in a single day. As long as it can recharge overnight back to 100%, that car will be a viable contender to them.
If the car you're building can't do that, it won't even be on their shopping list, no matter how efficient it is or how cheap to operate it may be.

- - -

Nobody seems to be complaining about their electric bill. Wander over to the Tesla forum and lurk for a while. They don't care. They have an -electric car- and they love it.

If you are going to allow electricity cost rear its ugly head and become a deciding factor, please recall that
a) pumping even a measly 10 KWh a day into a car battery is going to push you into that 5th pricing tier from SoCal Edison. Tough. If you don't like it, go buy a gasoline car.

b) SoCal Edison is not going to stand still and keep electricity rates "low." They *will* go up as the years roll by. We, as SoCal Edison customers, are gonna pay more tomorrow than what we pay today.

I haven't heard this little Edison jingle in decades. There's a reason.
"Electricity cost less today you know,
Than it did many long years ago,
Electicity fills the bill.
Little bill!"

Hah. Like *that* will happen again.


-- Ardie.

[lapwing]

..........a) pumping even a measly 10 KWh a day into a car battery is going to push you into that 5th pricing tier from SoCal Edison. Tough. If you don't like it, go buy a gasoline car. ..........

-- Ardie.

Nah! Throw a few KW of solar on the roof with the Enphase inverters.... install a bi-directional utility meter, and remember to plug in at work. It's the small perks :biggrin: .

[jthomasheywood@yahoo.com]

I did the Hymotion A123 for my Prius ( a 5 Kilowatt battery). I am getting about 70 miles a gallon with my now Plug in Prius on my drive from Solana Beach to La Jolla...best mileage on the road but still using gas. I was very much looking forward to the Aptera but I doubt that the current managment will get one out.

[eestorfan]

Reading so many incredible posts from forum members in the midst all the recent Aptera turmoil has been fascinating. For the most part, this an incredibly smart, passionate and well spoken group and I am grateful and humbled to be among you.

The biggest surprise for me personally has been the considerable amount of enthusiasm for the Nissan Leaf as an Aptera alternative. I have no problem with this opinion, with the Leaf, or with Nissan. But being the curious sort, it brings up a SERIOUS question and I hope fellow forum members will indulge me and provide some insight.

If you remove pure electric propulsion from the comparison, these vehicles are about as different as they could possibly be. The Leaf is a typical five door, five passenger family hatchback, and it's appearance is it's most non-conformist feature. The Aptera on the other hand, is remarkable for throwing all convention to the wind in order to maximize efficiency through light weight and aerodynamics. With an ICE, the Aptera would STILL be groundbreaking. A paragon of efficiency and a triumph of form determined by function. The Leaf would simply be a family hatchback with distinctive styling.

I have nothing but admiration for those who simply want to own and drive the first functional and affordable EV available. And anyone who cares can't help but being discouraged by endless delays and questionable management. But I can't help but see it as further proof that Aptera is relying on a niche that is simply too small to suggest financial viability and success.

Can the Aptera succeed simply by virtue of it's pursuit of ultimate efficiency, or will it be lost in a sea of more mainstream electric vehicles released in the next 12 to 24 months? Share your opinion and TESTIFY!

I absolutely LOVE the Aptera, but where I live it looks like it could be two or three years, maybe more, maybe not at all. The LEAF (they capitalize it) will be available here Dec., 2010. There will be over a thousand charging stations by then in each of the five states, plus 50 'fast charge' ones in each. Also, in these five states, they will install absolutely free (the newspaper article from Seattle said 'anyone that buys', but I also read somewhere it will be the first 1000 in each of those five states) a 240v. charging station at your residence (those cost about $1500 installed).
Just recently, Nissan said they could have a better battery system before it comes out and they still haven't decided if the buyer will own the whole car, lease the whole car, or just least the batteries. I plan on having pvs on our roof (enough to charge the car plus the whole house) by the end of 2010 and if the LEAF is the only BEV available at that time, will probably buy it.

[JustWilliam]

One can see a pattern developing in this thread already- it's possible to compare an apple with a pineapple if all you really expect is fruit juice as soon as possible. Especially if the pineapple VENDORS treat you well and the apple people do nothing but disappoint.

[JustWilliam]

If the Leaf ships, and it has a 100 mile range, wouldn't the question become is the Aptera a viable alternative to the Leaf?

Aside from range,does Aptera offer any advantages?
Advantages? They are legion if your dream car is a sporty, fun to drive, two-seater that provides incomparable efficiency through groundbreaking engineering, design and use of materials.

If you desire and/ or require a family four door hatchback on the other hand, light weight, performance dynamics or composite structure probably wouldn't be high on your priority list.

Part of my premise when I started this thread was that we were REMOVING electric propulsion for the sake of a strict vehicle to vehicle comparison. The issues of battery range and pack capacity, customer service, company management and production ETA's are all obviously important to potential customers, but they are all irrelevant in the context of my question about the value of Aptera's extreme vehicle platform. And for you and other forum members, it seems that it doesn't mean much at all. You may be better served by a family car and there is nothing wrong with that. I am simply trying to illustrate the VAST differences in design philosophies, and hopefully gain a clearer understanding of how Steve Fambro's extreme machine will eke out market share against far more mainstream competition over the "long haul".

[magnru]

Just walked home today from Leaf Tour in Walnut Creek, CA Broadway Plaza. They had the LEAF roped off and no one was allowed close to it. They were not allowed to open the hood or trunk. The rep said the first 5000 leafs will be Made In Japan late 2010 before switching over to Nissan's Tennessee Plant. They could not give me a price and they knew nothing about battery technology for cold climates. They did not know about alarm systems or on board GPS. They didn't even know that there were different mileage formulas for vehicles from which they claim 100 mpg. They did say all Leaf's will come with LRR Tires. They did not know that the Mitsubishi imiev EV even existed but they certainly know about Aptera. At least I got a free Nissan Zero Emissions Tour T-shirt and I met other Aptera Reservation Holders at this event. (It appears that Apterian's are drawn to EV events even if the Aptera isn't there. magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'

[Stunt Driver]

I see Aptera's desing and efficiency as a definite plus, but not big enough to compete against numerious production EVs on the market (assuming Aptera keeps slipping).
Aptera had huge advantage of being first, but for a good or bad reason it was let go. Another thing that may help Aptera survive - introduce 4-5 seater, extended type of Aptera to capture Leaf's customers back. It will be leff efficient, but should be still worth it.

I will put my deposit down in Dec in support of Aptera, but I will not lock in, as Aptera's management had nearly zero communication on plans to produce more than 1 production car.
While I'd love to have head-turner car for daily commute, I will need car to take 2 adults + kid in it, and at some moment - price will help to decide. Let's say Aptera gone up to $40 - it will stay as a dream for me.... and Leaf gets another customer.


ps And I can probably do a replica of Aptera then, with 30-50 mile range.

[DaveCodeglia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNfwNWWphI

[Apt3448]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfNfwNWWphI
Looks like mostly of the shelf parts - could be a kit car!

[LTLFTcomposite]

Advantages? They are legion if your dream car is a sporty, fun to drive, two-seater that provides incomparable efficiency through groundbreaking engineering, design and use of materials.

If you desire and/ or require a family four door hatchback on the other hand, light weight, performance dynamics or composite structure probably wouldn't be high on your priority list.

Part of my premise when I started this thread was that we were REMOVING electric propulsion for the sake of a strict vehicle to vehicle comparison. The issues of battery range and pack capacity, customer service, company management and production ETA's are all obviously important to potential customers, but they are all irrelevant in the context of my question about the value of Aptera's extreme vehicle platform. And for you and other forum members, it seems that it doesn't mean much at all. You may be better served by a family car and there is nothing wrong with that. I am simply trying to illustrate the VAST differences in design philosophies, and hopefully gain a clearer understanding of how Steve Fambro's extreme machine will eke out market share against far more mainstream competition over the "long haul".

I agree with all your points with the exception of performance... nobody really knows what the true capabilities of VaporCar would be. At the same time how much is really known about the LEAF? They may have made some advances too if not the extent of Aptera's vision.

[JustWilliam]

I agree with all your points with the exception of performance... nobody really knows what the true capabilities of VaporCar would be. At the same time how much is really known about the LEAF? They may have made some advances too if not the extent of Aptera's vision.
I agree with you 100% if you are talking about the final production prototype we are all waiting to see. But even early prototypes have been driven by serious "car guys" writing for mainstream publications. Here is an example-

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q1/2010_aptera_2e-first_drive_review

Despite all the problems one would expect in prototypes, what got me excited was this-

"body roll was virtually nonexistent, and stability was excellent"

That is PURE MUSIC to a drivings enthusiasts ears, but may mean nothing to someone who looks at their vehicle as a practical appliance to shuttle them from point A to point B.

It all depends on what spectrum of performance one is talking about. Neither the Leaf (pardon me- LEAF) or Aptera have been independently tested in their respective production guises. But once again we can reliably assume that a two passenger composite bodied three wheeler will offer obvious advantages and disadvantages when compared to a four door five passenger four wheeler.

I maintain that they will appeal to a totally different segment of car buyers if and when concurrently available.

[chijayhawker]

I don't like the idea of having to have a specially wired component installed into your garage (or where ever) to charge the Leaf. On 110v it would take how long to charge the Leaf to full? Too long. I can deal with an 8 hour charge time, but once you start getting into double digit hours on 110v, that's too long. Their distribution to the middle of the country seems as distant a plan as Aptera's release to the middle of the country. Especially when it comes to the recharging stations. The middle of the country gets no attention. Apparently they have a certain image for those of us living in the middle of the country that doesn't coincide with a green lifestyle or even the desire to try to be green. They should come see all the windmills going up around here in the volumious fields we have around here. Don't care how "ugly" they look when they are in the middle of a field where no one will hardly ever see them. Personally, I don't think they are ugly looking at all. They look pretty cool to me.

[speculawyer]

I don't like the idea of having to have a specially wired component installed into your garage (or where ever) to charge the Leaf. On 110v it would take how long to charge the Leaf to full? Too long. I can deal with an 8 hour charge time, but once you start getting into double digit hours on 110v, that's too long.
An Aptera like vehicle is pretty much your only option then. You just can't get enough energy out of a 110V outlet in 8 hours to make a conventional shape/size car go very far.

You need to step up the voltage to 220 or have a really efficient vehicle that can go a decent distance on the amount of energy you can get from a 110V source in 8 hours.

This is an advantage that Aptera would always have over the more mainstream EV cars.

[KarenRei]

Agreed, chijayhawker. There's also the assumption that those of us in "flyover land" drive a hundred miles a day or whatnot to get around. My daily commute is probably shorter than 90% of people on the 2e waiting list. Once a month I drive up to Cedar Rapids, about a 30 mile drive each way. I go to Des Moines, 115 miles away, about once or twice a year. Elaine goes to Bloomington, 190 miles away, 2-3 times a year. And we probably average one longer road trip per year, somewhere in the 300 to 1100 miles range.

My trip-length distribution, on a per-trip basis (assuming one-way) is something along the lines of:

0-5 miles: 63%
5-10 miles: 25%
10-20 miles: 3%
20-40 miles: 4%
40-80 miles: 1%
80-150 miles: 1%
150-300 miles: 1%
300-600 miles: 1%
600-1000 miles: 0.5%
1000+ miles: 0.5%

We're not all farmers living out in the boondocks. :P In fact, most of us aren't. My ratio of using the 2e vs. using my Saturn on trips of different lengths would probably have been something like:

0-5 miles: 96%
5-10 miles: 95%
10-20 miles: 94%
20-40 miles: 90%
40-80 miles: 80%
80-150 miles: 70%
150-300 miles: 60%
300-600 miles: 50%
600-1000 miles: 40%
1000+ miles: 40%

[OC-LA driver]

Agreed. When I lived in Cincinnati, going 60 miles to Dayton was a major road trip. Now in Southern CA, my daily commute is WELL over that.

[virtualeric]

Can the Aptera succeed simply by virtue of it's pursuit of ultimate efficiency, or will it be lost in a sea of more mainstream electric vehicles released in the next 12 to 24 months? Share your opinion and TESTIFY!
Efficiency IS the future, and in the future it will be a fundamental requirement to sustain the consumption of advancing technology and growing populations.

So efficiency is inevitable. However, the Aptera is ahead of the curve. I truly believe the future will be filled with ultra efficient vehicles. But for now, this efficient car that "is" will become a "was" as Aptera falls behind in the race and it gets run under the wheels of the incoming crop of electric cars aimed at soccer moms.

The Aptera of 2008, early 2009 was ahead of its time and will be drowned out by an incoming stampede it could have raced far ahed of....but don't get me started.

[LTLFTcomposite]

I don't like the idea of having to have a specially wired component installed into your garage (or where ever) to charge the Leaf. On 110v it would take how long to charge the Leaf to full? Too long. I can deal with an 8 hour charge time, but once you start getting into double digit hours on 110v, that's too long.

Why would you be reluctant to have a specially wired component in your garage? It should be a trivial matter for an electrician or a DIYer with experience in electrical work, particularly if the service panel is in the garage, which it is on a lot of houses.

I wouldn't recommend putting a sustained load of more than a few hundred watts on an existing 15A branch circuit in the garage, which the Aptera would certainly exceed. You could easily find other things already on that circuit, and even if not a regular plug would likely get warm. Much safer to have the right equipment properly installed.

[mweston]

Just walked home today from Leaf Tour in Walnut Creek, CA Broadway Plaza. They had the LEAF roped off and no one was allowed close to it. They were not allowed to open the hood or trunk. The rep said the first 5000 leafs will be Made In Japan late 2010 before switching over to Nissan's Tennessee Plant. They could not give me a price and they knew nothing about battery technology for cold climates. They did not know about alarm systems or on board GPS. They didn't even know that there were different mileage formulas for vehicles from which they claim 100 mpg. They did say all Leaf's will come with LRR Tires. They did not know that the Mitsubishi imiev EV even existed but they certainly know about Aptera. At least I got a free Nissan Zero Emissions Tour T-shirt and I met other Aptera Reservation Holders at this event. (It appears that Apterian's are drawn to EV events even if the Aptera isn't there. magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'
That there is so little data to be had on their tour is sad, but I am planning to see it at the SF Auto Show on Friday. I will probably be there around 11am, plus or minus. Anyone else going then?

[chijayhawker]

I'm opposed to having something installed because I'm a renter at the moment. I do not want to have to invest in an electrician installing something in a rented garage, which is quite popular here in the Chicagoland area and a big money maker, especially if I don't know how long I will be in this place. However, being able to plug-in my Aptera to a regular, already existing 110 outlet in the garage is just fine. Maybe by the time I am actually able to buy an Aptera (probably the 2H for the reasons KarenRei stated) I will be in my own home, but with housing prices here in Chicago, I'm not sure.

[LTLFTcomposite]

I'm opposed to having something installed because I'm a renter at the moment. I do not want to have to invest in an electrician installing something in a rented garage, which is quite popular here in the Chicagoland area and a big money maker, especially if I don't know how long I will be in this place. However, being able to plug-in my Aptera to a regular, already existing 110 outlet in the garage is just fine. Maybe by the time I am actually able to buy an Aptera (probably the 2H for the reasons KarenRei stated) I will be in my own home, but with housing prices here in Chicago, I'm not sure.

Be aware when you see a duplex outlet on a wall, what's backing it up can vary widely. It could be on a dedicated 20A breaker with #12 wire (good for your intended purpose) or it could be on chain of outlets with who knows what else plugged into them strung with #14 wire off a 15A breaker (not good). You don't want to lose a freezer full of steaks because charging your Aptera tripped the breaker.

If the washing machine is in the garage you may be in luck as they are often on a dedicated 20A circuit.

[DonC]

If the washing machine is in the garage you may be in luck as they are often on a dedicated 20A circuit.
There is a company which is close to releasing a product that allows EVs to share a 240 connection with a dryer. It essentially will power the car and automatically cut the power if the dryer starts up. A lot of people have dryer connections in the garage so this would help with charging infrastructure quite a bit.

[roflwaffle]

Does anyone know what the assumed pack size for the 100mph@70mph/500lbs statement was?

[evmavin]

Does anyone know what the assumed pack size for the 100mph@70mph/500lbs statement was?


17-22 supposedly.

[roflwaffle]

In that case the competition between the 2e and Leaf depends on how much two extra seats/extra cargo room would appeal to people and whether or not going ~50 miles at 70mph fully loaded versus ~100 miles at 70mph fully loaded impacts the usefulness of either vehicle. Offhand, the farther out and faster someone commutes, the more appealing the 2e would be up to where it's the only game in town. Otoh, the slower and closer the commute, the more the Leaf may appeal to people due to it's conventional appearance and design.

[magnru]

In that case the competition between the 2e and Leaf depends on how much two extra seats/extra cargo room would appeal to people and whether or not going ~50 miles at 70mph fully loaded versus ~100 miles at 70mph fully loaded impacts the usefulness of either vehicle. Offhand, the farther out and faster someone commutes, the more appealing the 2e would be up to where it's the only game in town. Otoh, the slower and closer the commute, the more the Leaf may appeal to people due to it's conventional appearance and design.
I agree. I see these vehicles being the only logical choice of it's classification. Aptera 2e and 2h will be for those who commute Tracy-S.F. ,LA-SD, SF-LA, etc. My wife and I plan to ride in our Aptera throughout the US to check out where we want to retire. I could live in my Aptera, with all of it's capabilities - camping gear be ready! magnru #2783 'TYPE 2H'

[JustWilliam]

Right on Mangru! Your post has me grinning ear to ear.

[mweston]

That there is so little data to be had on their tour is sad, but I am planning to see it at the SF Auto Show on Friday. I will probably be there around 11am, plus or minus. Anyone else going then?
I went yesterday morning. Nissan was not there except for the Leaf, which was in the middle of a large hallway. There were two Nissan people there, one of whom seemed substantially more knowledgeable. When I was there there were few people at the show in general, so there were only a few others looking at the Leaf, and they didn't spend as long as I did. You could not get in or even touch the car.

Here are a few things I heard that I didn't know before (though who knows if they are true): 1) they expect to make enough Leafs (Leaves?) in 2010 so that people who sign up early in the year will all get their cars in 2010, 2) the Leaf has spent more time in their wind tunnel than any other car, 3) other than 110V, the two higher level charging options will require a specific charging station (specifically meaning that a dryer outlet can't be used for 220V charging), and 4) they are still undecided on battery purchase vs. leasing.

Unless things turn around soon at Aptera, I suspect the Leaf is way more likely for me. I still like the Aptera slightly more, but if Aptera has shipped zero vehicles to paying customers at the point when I can actually get a Leaf, I'm gone. Even if I can't get my locked in Aptera deposit back.

[eestorfan]

I went yesterday morning. Nissan was not there except for the Leaf, which was in the middle of a large hallway. There were two Nissan people there, one of whom seemed substantially more knowledgeable. When I was there there were few people at the show in general, so there were only a few others looking at the Leaf, and they didn't spend as long as I did. You could not get in or even touch the car.

Here are a few things I heard that I didn't know before (though who knows if they are true): 1) they expect to make enough Leafs (Leaves?) in 2010 so that people who sign up early in the year will all get their cars in 2010, 2) the Leaf has spent more time in their wind tunnel than any other car, 3) other than 110V, the two higher level charging options will require a specific charging station (specifically meaning that a dryer outlet can't be used for 220V charging), and 4) they are still undecided on battery purchase vs. leasing.

Unless things turn around soon at Aptera, I suspect the Leaf is way more likely for me. I still like the Aptera slightly more, but if Aptera has shipped zero vehicles to paying customers at the point when I can actually get a Leaf, I'm gone. Even if I can't get my locked in Aptera deposit back.

The people in these five states (CA, AZ, OR, WA, TN) can reserve one in Spring of 2010. Japan will make 5000 LEAFS in 2010, 1000 for each of those five states. And the ones buying at that time (DEC) will get a 240v. charging station installed for free!
I absolutely LOVE the Aptera too, but I'm just not going to wait two-three years more for one if the LEAF becomes available. I'm pretty sure that by the time the LEAF is manufactured, Nissan will have a much cheaper and better energy storage device. :)

[drivin98]

Nissan expects to double the energy capacity of their battery by 2015.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/11/nissan-nmc-20091129.html

[DonC]

Nissan expects to double the energy capacity of their battery by 2015.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/11/nissan-nmc-20091129.html
2015 would dovetail nicely with their 5 year battery lease program, eh?

The other way you could go, which is what GM has in mind, is keeping the same range and cutting the price of the vehicle. Given the EV-1 experience, where people preferred the cheaper battery pack with less range, my money would be on this approach. Nissan could do this as well, depending on the first generation experience.

[evmavin]

2015 would dovetail nicely with their 5 year battery lease program, eh?

The other way you could go, which is what GM has in mind, is keeping the same range and cutting the price of the vehicle. Given the EV-1 experience, where people preferred the cheaper battery pack with less range, my money would be on this approach. Nissan could do this as well, depending on the first generation experience.


Their pack is quite small at 24 kwh, they should just increase the size to 33.

[drivin98]

They could do a modular pack similar to the Tesla S and give some price vs range choices. Interestingly, a smaller pack should both handle better and be quicker because of less weight.

[eestorfan]

2015 would dovetail nicely with their 5 year battery lease program, eh?

The other way you could go, which is what GM has in mind, is keeping the same range and cutting the price of the vehicle. Given the EV-1 experience, where people preferred the cheaper battery pack with less range, my money would be on this approach. Nissan could do this as well, depending on the first generation experience.

They still haven't decided on the leasing yet nor has GM.

[garygid]

These cell chemistries also differ in "lifetime" (number of re-charges),
from several hundreds to 3000 or even 5000 cycles.

The useful voltage range for a "good" lifetime is usually something
like 2 to 4 volts, and a good BMS (Battery-cell Management System)
is usually required for achieving the better lifetimes.

[mweston]

The people in these five states (CA, AZ, OR, WA, TN) can reserve one in Spring of 2010. Japan will make 5000 LEAFS in 2010, 1000 for each of those five states. And the ones buying at that time (DEC) will get a 240v. charging station installed for free!
I had heard the 5000 number here, but the woman there said (if I recall correctly) 20,000. But thinking back on it, that was probably for the first full year of production and not for 2010.

[garygid]

Does the purchase price include one "240v Charging Station"?
And, the "free" part is the installation?

Can the LEAF be charged from 120v (or other) "standard" outlets?

If not, that would seem to be quite limiting, right?

[mweston]

Does the purchase price include one "240v Charging Station"?
And, the "free" part is the installation?

Can the LEAF be charged from 120v (or other) "standard" outlets?

If not, that would seem to be quite limiting, right?
I'm not sure about any special deal for a free 240V station and/or installation of one, but I definitely heard that the ability to charge from 120V (and the actual cord) was included. The connector for both cases is the same, and I believe it's the SAE J1772 (which means that this is not just any extension cord). That's on the right side, with the 480V connector on the left (as you look at the front of the car (http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/08/29-1280.jpg)).

[eestorfan]

Does the purchase price include one "240v Charging Station"?
And, the "free" part is the installation?

Can the LEAF be charged from 120v (or other) "standard" outlets?

If not, that would seem to be quite limiting, right?

The first 1000 in each of those five states receive a 240v. charging station installed FREE. It is part of the DOE grant, and has nothing to do with the price of the car.

It can be charged from a 120v but it will take twice the time to recharge. I remember it being about 4 hrs. with the 240v. station.

[eestorfan]

I had heard the 5000 number here, but the woman there said (if I recall correctly) 20,000. But thinking back on it, that was probably for the first full year of production and not for 2010.

Japan is going to produce 5000 cars by the end of 2010. After that, they will be mass produced in TN to be delivered in 2012. If I remember correctly, I think the mass production was 100,000. I've never heard or read about the 20K figure.

[evmavin]

The Japan cars will likely be better built.

[eestorfan]

The Japan cars will likely be better built.

You'd better believe they will be! :) I had a 1990 Toyota Celica GT-S that was made in Japan, and it was the BEST car I've ever owned! I drove it for 15 years with just regular maintenance, normal wear and tear items. I'm planning on making a deposit on a LEAF in the Spring if Aptera doesn't announce anything by then.

[Stunt Driver]

It can be charged from a 120v but it will take twice the time to recharge. I remember it being about 4 hrs. with the 240v. station.

nice option to have, BUT when i'll buy EV for myself, I'll be taking good care of batteries, including moderate driving and slow charging, as those are main killing factors for batteries. For the same reason I'd prefer to own battery pack, rather than lease it.


Back to original question -Leaf is going to be a nice EV, no doubt. And functional for everyday use and taking 3 kids to school.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

The Leaf has 3 charging speeds, IIANM: 120v, 240v, and fast charging at a special station. The fast one is specified as 80% charged in less than 30 minutes, I think.

[eestorfan]

Hi,

The Leaf has 3 charging speeds, IIANM: 120v, 240v, and fast charging at a special station. The fast one is specified as 80% charged in less than 30 minutes, I think.

Yep, under 30 minutes for the fast charging. Before the LEAF is available end of 2010, there's supposed to be over a thousand 240v. charging stations in each of those five states, plus 50 of the fast chargers in each of those five states.

[mycomya]

The Aptera is the perfect vehicle for my purposes, but the LEAF may be a suitable substitute over the near term. I saw the Nissan LEAF this morning. Gorgeous. It didn't look as much like a hungry guppy as I thought it would. The interior was especially nice; among the nicest interiors I've ever seen. Its a classy ride. Pricing/battery options will be announced in February. And in the Spring, they will start taking reservations (with a small deposit).

The Nissan folks said that a sporty two-seater EV will be produced shortly after the LEAF. This was the biggest news of the morning for me and I'm really excited about it; hopefully the two-seater will be affordable. Ultimately, a respectably sporty, microcar/two-seater EV is what I really want.

One obvious thing this morning really stuck with me, in comparing the LEAF with the Aptera 2e, is the company behind the vehicle. Nissan came across as smooth and professional, a solid, established company that has a proven track record. They also demonstrated a progressive attitude toward customer communication, education, and trust. The Nissan folks know their $hit.

Aptera? Paul Wilbur hasn't made a single promise that has come to pass and the board of directors sit on their hands and watch the fiasco unfold, hoping the govt will bail them out. In the meantime, they exploit the trust and enthusiasm gained through Steve and Chris's early efforts while showing the utmost disregard for the founder's primary concepts, the founders themselves, early adopters, and current reservation holders. Its incredible. What a huge, huge disappointment. The folks at the top (Wilbur, McCammon, and Marion) are fraudulent, stringing us all out.

The 2e and LEAF are totally different cars, but they do compete against one another for early EV buyers. I didn't used to think that 'first to market' was such a big deal given how different these two cars are, but after this morning, I'm beginning to change my mind.

One in the hand is better than two in the bush.

[mycomya]

I contacted nissan-usa.com to verify the reservation date. They got back to me almost immediately with an email:

-------------------------

Thank you for taking the time to personally contact us about your interest in the Nissan Electric Vehicle.

We will begin taking pre-orders for the Nissan LEAF in the Spring of 2010. If you have not done so there is a brief questionnaire online at http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/opt-in/en/index.jsp By completing this we can keep you updated as more information about your request becomes available in your area.

We appreciate your time, and encourage you to share our contact details with friends and family. For your convenience, we can be reached:

* By return email.
* Through our website at www.nissanusa.com
* By phone at 877-664-2738.

We’re here to serve you from 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. (CST) Monday through Friday.

Sincerely,
________________
William

Nissan EV Customer Support
evcustomersupport@nissan-usa.com
1-877 NO GAS EV (664-2738)

-------------------------

How bout dem apples, Paul Wilbur & Co.?

[Rat]

I just got back from the Leaf demonstration today, too. I echo what mycomya said. It's a very nice car with a very professional presentation, much better than what Aptera did at Stanford last summer. It has advantages and disadvantages. The biggest advantage is, as has been said, that you have a huge well-established company standing behind the promises, there to deal with service, support, warranties, etc. The rep said Nissan is working with utilities in California to obtain special discounts and will help the buyers with any permitting issues, etc. Clearly they will be better at communicating with customers or potential buyers.

The three biggest disadvantages that I see for the Leaf as compared to the Aptera are:
1. More expensive - probably, although no prices have been locked in for either. The Leaf was said to sell for about what a "fully loaded Prius" sells for, but the customer also has to buy a special charger for the home and may have to lease the battery (or buy it as an extra). My guess: ~$45-50,000 when all is said and done, including the battery costs, although she wouldn't commit to, or even mention, any numbers.
2. Special charger - the device to be bought for the home is a 240 V unit that must be installed (presumably by an electrician or very knowledgeable DIY). This is necessary for safety, not just speed of charge or compatibility, according to the rep. She did not elaborate.
3. Time to charge - It can be charged off a 110V regular circuit but it will be 16 hours to charge from 0 to 100% on 110V. Only 8 hrs. with the special unit, which is comparable to what Aptera does with 110, but the Aptera presumably can charge anywhere with normal house current overnight (such as a relative's house) while the Leaf cannot. And, yes, it will also have a 460V (I believe she said) fast charge option for use at special charging stations. She said the battery will be a 240kwh pack.

She said it will come fully loaded with the creature comforts of a typical 5-passenger sedan - audio/heated seats/A/C/navigation as standard. The navigation system will continually update wirelessly and automatically to show new charging points. The Leaf, with 4 wheels, is a car for regulatory purposes, so it must meet crash and other safety standards, while the Aptera claims they will, but won't be subject to the oversight of the Leaf in that regard. I recently drove a rental Versa and the Leaf seemed a bit larger in the interior, although they wouldn't let us sit in it. The plug is right in the nose. Nissan is working directly with various cities or other entities to see that the charging stations are installed in at least some places. More governments are willing to commit to the infrastructure for a large company like Nissan than for a start-up like Aptera, if Aptera is even making such an effort, which I doubt. The Leaf is clearly more conventional and less "green" (e.g., less efficient) which is either an advantage or disadvantage, depending on one's point of view. Green is good, but then so is room for five and a major company warranty. It's a trade-off.

Also, contrary to what I thought, it will be sold all over California at the same time when it comes out, not just in San Diego, Portland and the other cities with the charging station agreements, although she did seem to admit that the first ones may be delivered to San Diego. As mentioned, in the spring you can get on their waiting list for a small deposit ("maybe as small as $100" she said). The rep said you can get a preference number, i.e. lock in a spot in line, and the deposit will be refundable, just like Aptera's.

[mweston]

She said the battery will be a 240kwh pack.
I am 99% sure you meant 24kwh.

...and the deposit will be refundable, just like Aptera's.
Which was what inspired me to un-lock-in my Aptera deposit.

I used to have the small Aptera poster that they gave out at the Palo Alto event up in my cube at work. I took that down and put up the Leaf postcard instead. Sad.

[oobflyer]

I have a deposit on the Aptera and I'm going to check out LEAF this weekend. I'm keeping an open mind, BUT, for me one big reason in favor of buying the Aptera vs the LEAF is that it is made in America. Nothing against Japan (I have a Prius too), but our economy is suffering in part because of how U.S. manufacturing is being outsourced. We need to support American entrepreneurs - imagine Aptera exporting to Japan for example :-)
Having said that - if both cars were made here which would I buy? I still prefer the Aptera because of it's unique styling. The more attention we can bring to the EV world the better.

[mycomya]

At the LEAF event, I asked about price too, and they said it will be affordable; after the federal tax credit, about on par with other autos of its size class. Just out of curiosity, I priced out a "fully loaded Prius" online it came out to $36,147 (most expensive trim and options, with all available accessories included). Your guess, Rat, seems neither affordable nor on par with others of its class, but $45-50k isn't implausible considering the cost of the battery, etc. I sure hope its not that expensive (that's an impossible price point for me, and a difficult one for the market in general; the LEAF ain't no Tesla Model S). We'll just have to see in February, when they detail pricing and options...

I'm grateful for the probing questions regarding the special charger and charging times. Overall, doesn't sound good. I'd like to get confirmation that it can't be plugged into/doesn't have a converter for a normal house outlet (e.g., a relative's place)...

[Rat]

I am 99% sure you meant 24kwh.
Right, and a 24 V charger. :sign0002:

Oh, and they gave me a free T-shirt, so naturally I have to switch loyalties.

[eestorfan]

Right, and a 24 V charger. :sign0002:

Oh, and they gave me a free T-shirt, so naturally I have to switch loyalties.

It's a 240v. charger and a 24kwh battery pack. But they did say that the battery pack could change before production starts. Also, the first 1000 customers in each of the five states (CA, AZ, OR, WA, TN) will receive completely free of charge (thanks to the 100 mil. DOE grant) a 240v. charging station installed in their garage or outside if they don't have a garage.

[Aptera#1434]

Can anyone tell us if it was really worth going to see the Leaf in person?

I have a reservation at the Santana Row showing. But I wish they would at least let people sit in it. Sounds like going to the show is a bit disappointing.

[futura]

I went to the L.A. showing. It was convenient, which made it worth 30 mins of my time. As you indicated, there's not much to a showing, however.
The hosts seemed to be unable or unwilling to answer questions that weren't already posted on the brochures. You can't touch it, much less sit in it!
The main thing I got out of it was a better sense of the cars dimensions, fit and finish. Also, it didn't seem as fish-like as it appears to be in so many of the web photos. I came away with a positive impression overall.

[Rat]

To clarify, the rep said the Leaf could be charged on regular 120V house current, but that it would take 16 hours to go from 0 - 100%. She made no mention of a special charger for that voltage. If you only needed half a charge, and could stay 8 hours then it should work, but clearly that is still a disadvantage compared to the 2e's quicker 120V time.

Yes, I know, 240V and 24KWH. That second post was an attempt at humor.

The $45-50K is my guesstimate and does include the cost of the charging station in the garage and the battery (including leasing costs for the life of the battery at least if only lease is available). Although they have not determined whether the battery will be leased, sold, or the buyer given a choice, it was stated that the lease idea is intended to fit into the typical car buyer's comfort zone of buying the car for a relatively cheap price, and instead of monthly gas bills, the monthly lease will be a comparable ongoing "fuel" cost. The big problem with that for me is that those of us who drive very little will presumably pay the same amount for the lease as those who don't, and maybe a lot more than I would spend on gas. I'd rather own it, I think, so that I get the benefit of the longer battery life from low mileage driving, but only if I could trade it in for a better battery at a reasonable price if there is a breakthrough in technology, or if prices just come down.

I definitely thought viewing it in person was worth the visit to Santana Row. I got some questions answered in a non-committal way that I hadn't heard about before. For example, the rep said nothing is finalized but PG&E is looking into separate meters for the car (charging station) and the house. That would be a disadvantage to me since going to a tiered system for the whole house would lower my overall electric bill and is one of the attractions of any EV. She also said that even though I have a 220V outlet for the dryer, I would still have to buy the charger for the garage for safety reasons. It's more than just an adapter. Seeing the fit and finish also inspired confidence in the Leaf, but I expected Nissan would do a first-rate job on that for a prototype, though, as it had conventional metal and new car paint job. For many Aptera fans of course the composite shell and minimalist look is a big part of the attraction, so this gives you a chance to see for yourself if the Leaf is what you want to be seen in, if that matters to you.

[evmavin]

To clarify, the rep said the Leaf could be charged on regular 120V house current, but that it would take 16 hours to go from 0 - 100%. She made no mention of a special charger for that voltage. If you only needed half a charge, and could stay 8 hours then it should work, but clearly that is still a disadvantage compared to the 2e's quicker 120V time.

Yes, I know, 240V and 24KWH. That second post was an attempt at humor.

The $45-50K is my guesstimate and does include the cost of the charging station in the garage and the battery (including leasing costs for the life of the battery at least if only lease is available). Although they have not determined whether the battery will be leased, sold, or the buyer given a choice, it was stated that the lease idea is intended to fit into the typical car buyer's comfort zone of buying the car for a relatively cheap price, and instead of monthly gas bills, the monthly lease will be a comparable ongoing "fuel" cost. The big problem with that for me is that those of us who drive very little will presumably pay the same amount for the lease as those who don't, and maybe a lot more than I would spend on gas. I'd rather own it, I think, so that I get the benefit of the longer battery life from low mileage driving, but only if I could trade it in for a better battery at a reasonable price if there is a breakthrough in technology, or if prices just come down.

I definitely thought viewing it in person was worth the visit to Santana Row. I got some questions answered in a non-committal way that I hadn't heard about before. For example, the rep said nothing is finalized but PG&E is looking into separate meters for the car (charging station) and the house. That would be a disadvantage to me since going to a tiered system for the whole house would lower my overall electric bill and is one of the attractions of any EV. She also said that even though I have a 220V outlet for the dryer, I would still have to buy the charger for the garage for safety reasons. It's more than just an adapter. Seeing the fit and finish also inspired confidence in the Leaf, but I expected Nissan would do a first-rate job on that for a prototype, though, as it had conventional metal and new car paint job. For many Aptera fans of course the composite shell and minimalist look is a big part of the attraction, so this gives you a chance to see for yourself if the Leaf is what you want to be seen in, if that matters to you.



I would suspect that the pack size is increased prior to production as 24 kwh is small for this car and even the Think is about 33 kwh. It has been stated that the Leaf will have at least three charging options, 120, 240 and a fast charge. Many EVs require a "charging station for various safely reasons but this term is a bit ambiguous as some of those "charging stations" are not always chargers but charging points that provide various functions for safety, etc and only output 120-240V not the DC output as the "charger" is on the car. If the actual charger is on the car it only needs to communicate to a smart "charging station" to get its specified AC voltage and current. These have been in use for years and can be modified to be used on any onboard charger, I have "hacked" a box to trick these stations into supplying the proper output for EVs I have owned. An example for control functions on a charging station would be programming that says "if car transmits flooded battery profile, start location vent fans, if no fans present at station do not charge" Etc.

If the actual charger were on the wall in the garage this would be a challenge for universal charging standards and would require more communication related to charge curves, profiles, temp regulation, etc. There are ways to do a hybrid version and it is likely that there is a specific connector dedicated for the FAST charger as it would be a very large off-board beast used for specific fleet and other applications providing high-current DC to the pack. If you look at the charge door you will see more than one charge connection.

[thimel]

I just saw the Nissan Leaf in San Jose. Here is what I learned by asking lots of questions, some of which is new.

It has a Cd of 0.28. (not surprising, but never the less, disappointing compared to the Aptera)

All lighting is LED including the headlights.

There is very slight regen when no pedals are pressed. (One Nissan person said it did not slow down, another said there was slight regen and they were still considering whether a coasting mode should be available. I told him there should be.)

As you press the brake pedal, braking is first done with regen and then with 4 wheel disk brakes.

It has air conditioning and heating. It is a resistance heater; no heat pump. Hence the heating is harder on the battery than the AC.

It has a heated steering wheel and seats.

Heating and AC can be turned on with a timer or from a cell phone. (I was told you could not do it from a computer but I don't think she was sure as she simply reasoned that the communication with the car was via the cell network so you couldn't do it from a computer.) They intend that you get the car to the right temperature while it is still plugged in and hence avoid reducing the range too much by running them when you are driving. There is no charge the first year for the cellular network connection. If you want to continue that service, it will cost you something in future years. However, updates to the GPS maps will continue to be free.

The seats are made out of recycled plastic and the body is steel.

The bottom is smooth. At present there is some type of antenna sticking down in the middle of the bottom but I was told that will not be there in the production version.

The model we were shown does have an electric drive train, the Nissan person had driven it, but is is limited to 35 mph.

They have not yet done the US crash tests as delivery is still a year out. They expect it to pass with no problems. It has multiple air bags.

There is a battery management system which monitors and controls the charging of each individual cell.

It is fly by wire including steering, accelerator and brakes. The only fluids are windshield washer and brake fluids.

I asked if it used Li iron phosphate batteries. All I was told is it used "Lithium Ion Batteries." However she was not aware of any heating or cooling being applied to the batteries.

I wasn't allowed to sit in it so I have no sure answer to my most important question: whether my 6'7'' body fits. I talked to a 6'4" Nissan person who has sat in it and he thinks it will be OK.

It has two electric receptacles in front. One is for 120/240 and the other for the quick charger. It can plug into a normal 120 V outlet and "draw the power of a toaster". They recommend the 240 V charger for the home. This is something which takes power from a dryer circuit but is not simply a dryer outlet. It is a box roughly 18" square and I'm not sure how deep. (She indicated the dimensions by holding her hands apart.)

[PatQ562]

"Yet another" little detail that Aptera seems to be vague on is the existence of a serious Electrical Code requirement for elaborate charger interfaces to legally charge an EV. I don't know exactly why, but somehow, this equipment bulks up to a "real box" that costs the better part of $1K. As far as I know, this does not involve any energy conversion, just expensive monitoring and safety cutouts. This all seems overkill to me, but living near a house that burned down due to a Gen1 EV1 does highlight the need for safety - but such measures should all be IN THE CAR where any bad news can be monitored. At most, a "charging outlet" should have a heavy duty GFI which ought to cost well below $100. Since the Aptera is supposed to use any 120V outlet for 8-hr overnight charging, I suppose no "charger police" will be pounding on the door if we don't burden the authorities with excess detail about our new car, but for example, getting special utility company rates will probably involve costly compliance. This is all accepted as "cost of doing business" in the Volt camp, and doubtless, other big corporations.
Incidentally, one would expect a 240V-30A outlet to charge four times faster than a 120V-15A outlet, in round numbers. With reasonable derating factors, we can draw 1.4kW from 120V at 12A, thus supplying 22.4kW-Hr in 16 hours, less any further losses. I remember hearing about 10-13kW-hr for an Aptera pack, thus mapping to about 8 hours. 240V at 25A would deliver four times the power, thus 6kW-hr per hour of charging, IF the charger will handle 6kW.
It took 6-8 hours to recharge my EV1 using the required 240V-32A inductive charger. Approx 1kW went to the AC unit for cooling the batteries, resulting in about 32kWhr supplied to a 1100 lb NiMH pack. A modern lithium pack should cut the weight in half at least.

[evmavin]

"Yet another" little detail that Aptera seems to be vague on is the existence of a serious Electrical Code requirement for elaborate charger interfaces to legally charge an EV. I don't know exactly why, but somehow, this equipment bulks up to a "real box" that costs the better part of $1K. As far as I know, this does not involve any energy conversion, just expensive monitoring and safety cutouts. This all seems overkill to me, but living near a house that burned down due to a Gen1 EV1 does highlight the need for safety - but such measures should all be IN THE CAR where any bad news can be monitored. At most, a "charging outlet" should have a heavy duty GFI which ought to cost well below $100. Since the Aptera is supposed to use any 120V outlet for 8-hr overnight charging, I suppose no "charger police" will be pounding on the door if we don't burden the authorities with excess detail about our new car, but for example, getting special utility company rates will probably involve costly compliance. This is all accepted as "cost of doing business" in the Volt camp, and doubtless, other big corporations.
Incidentally, one would expect a 240V-30A outlet to charge four times faster than a 120V-15A outlet, in round numbers. With reasonable derating factors, we can draw 1.4kW from 120V at 12A, thus supplying 22.4kW-Hr in 16 hours, less any further losses. I remember hearing about 10-13kW-hr for an Aptera pack, thus mapping to about 8 hours. 240V at 25A would deliver four times the power, thus 6kW-hr per hour of charging, IF the charger will handle 6kW.
It took 6-8 hours to recharge my EV1 using the required 240V-32A inductive charger. Approx 1kW went to the AC unit for cooling the batteries, resulting in about 32kWhr supplied to a 1100 lb NiMH pack. A modern lithium pack should cut the weight in half at least.




Most of these home junction boxes are secondary safety/control boxes which were used in the home for connection simplification like in the case of the AVCON conductive connector. There would be a paddle attached to the "home" junction box which was connected to an AC circuit. When traveling and using a remote AVCON box at say a parking garage, one would take the long attached paddle and attach it to the car, once connected a basic controller would communicate with the car and validate some basic parameters, if met the box would supply power to the EV controller. One could eliminate the home box if desired, I never used one, just an adaptor.

If Aptera used a simple 120 connection only then it's a basic plug and they are done, even low current 240 is possible with a standard plug. If they want to utilize charger "station" standards for outside the home they need to use some sort of existing or new charger plug standard that will communicate with the remote station. As long as the plug has the correct connections and gives the "charging station" the desired info, the station will supply the correct voltage and current required up to it's maximum rated station capacity.
And don't expect to plug in a standard 120 plug into a existing charge station unless someone installed a standard 120v GFI which usually trips on chargers.

Aptera is most likely struggling with the cost of a truly isolated high-power charger vs the much lower cost of a 120 or dual-voltage 120/240 low current charger. There is a large cost differential here and the connection requirements are more elaborate in and out of the vehicle.

Utilities like PGE don't care anything about what your charging connection at home is in relation to your metering, they just have a separate meter for that power outlet at a different rate. If one has solar the use of a second meter does not make sense due to the time of use metering system.

[PatQ562]

One of the many brilliant insights of the AC Propulsion concept was the realization that once the battery voltage exceeded the peak AC voltage (340V for 240Vac), it would be possible to use one phase of the motor controller (33kW capacity) to convert 60Hz power to DC, exactly as if the motor was regenerating. This would seem to require only a motor-to-AC change-over relay when plugged in for charging. Somehow GM got their panties in a bunch over having "live AC" in the vehicle, although this is routine for RV coaches, and full insulation is required anyway for 340V DC packs. So GM chose to introduce ANOTHER stage of power conversion, from 60Hz AC to high frequency power (20kHz?) that coupled thru the "paddle" to an onboard receiver coil and rectifier setup. All more parts to waste power and fail (and they DID).
I don't know where we lost the AC Propulsion vision, which simply uses the existing and highly capable motor controller as a charger (and a very fast one at that). It seems feasible to design a totally safe non-exposed contactor plug, and GFI somewhere in the chain should serve as a backup safety device for knuckleheads. The concept even allows the EV to serve as an emergency source of 60Hz power, with suitable control software.

[evmavin]

One of the many brilliant insights of the AC Propulsion concept was the realization that once the battery voltage exceeded the peak AC voltage (340V for 240Vac), it would be possible to use one phase of the motor controller (33kW capacity) to convert 60Hz power to DC, exactly as if the motor was regenerating. This would seem to require only a motor-to-AC change-over relay when plugged in for charging. Somehow GM got their panties in a bunch over having "live AC" in the vehicle, although this is routine for RV coaches, and full insulation is required anyway for 340V DC packs. So GM chose to introduce ANOTHER stage of power conversion, from 60Hz AC to high frequency power (20kHz?) that coupled thru the "paddle" to an onboard receiver coil and rectifier setup. All more parts to waste power and fail (and they DID).
I don't know where we lost the AC Propulsion vision, which simply uses the existing and highly capable motor controller as a charger (and a very fast one at that). It seems feasible to design a totally safe non-exposed contactor plug, and GFI somewhere in the chain should serve as a backup safety device for knuckleheads. The concept even allows the EV to serve as an emergency source of 60Hz power, with suitable control software.

I agree on all points, and don't forget the integrated 100A DC/DC and high-power charger and very low system weight. The ACP system is and was very advanced for it's time. A mini version in an Aptera would be incredible! How about 80 kw, 25A DC/DC and 10 KW charger. Performance, efficiency, fast charging, low weight, high RPM. The power source would be a bonus and could come in handy for many uses.

[speculawyer]

Well, I got to see the Leaf up close as it was in San Jose this weekend as part of its national tour. It looks like a nice little car . . . pretty much what I expected.

Not much of a showing though . . . the car was roped off so you couldn't get a good look. No useful brochures with stats. The hood was closed except that the charger door was open. I don't think there were any knowledgeable people. Just some cute young girls showing off the car. At least I got a free T-shirt.

If I had to pick between the two, I'd go with the GM Volt. Of course I'm biased considering I'm a part owner of the company. (As is every other American Tax-payer. :D ) For a full sized car, the series-hybrid seems like the better way to go until battery prices drop. The combo of 40 EV miles (which means 100% electric driving for most days) and long range/fast fill-up with gas works well.

The large expensive batteries and long charge times for full-sized car EVs just seems to impractical for now.

[Aptera#1434]

I too saw the Leaf the past weekend and Santana Row. The Leaf was parked outside and man was it cold at night, burr.

I was impressed by the fit and finish. The company reps seemed fairly knowledgeable. Most of the key questions have already been answered in this thread.

Few more items to share:
Battery pack doesn't have memory, so it can be charged even if not fully depleted.

Price should be comparable to a loaded Altima, so about $32k-35k(but $7,500 and $2,500 state rebates to apply) so final price is about $22k-25k plus tax, misc.

City of SF is working with Nissan with a goal of 150,000 charging stations in SF.

Nissan will be accepting $200 refundable deposits shortly which will get people a test drive, deposit position, etc.

Leaf will come in 4-5 colors(black, light blue, can't remember the other colors).

Home charging station will cost about $300-400 with Nissan giving a rebate for 1/2 of the installation/hook-up.

One test run by Nissan using the LA4? test they were able to go 130 miles on a charge.

Definatly considering the vehicle.

[evmavin]

I too saw the Leaf the past weekend and Santana Row. The Leaf was parked outside and man was it cold at night, burr.

I was impressed by the fit and finish. The company reps seemed fairly knowledgeable. Most of the key questions have already been answered in this thread.

Few more items to share:
Battery pack doesn't have memory, so it can be charged even if not fully depleted.

Price should be comparable to a loaded Altima, so about $32k-35k(but $7,500 and $2,500 state rebates to apply) so final price is about $22k-25k plus tax, misc.

City of SF is working with Nissan with a goal of 150,000 charging stations in SF.

Nissan will be accepting $200 refundable deposits shortly which will get people a test drive, deposit position, etc.

Leaf will come in 4-5 colors(black, light blue, can't remember the other colors).

Home charging station will cost about $300-400 with Nissan giving a rebate for 1/2 of the installation/hook-up.

One test run by Nissan using the LA4? test they were able to go 130 miles on a charge.

Definatly considering the vehicle.




150,000 charging stations in SF, that's like one on every four cars. If the Leaf really ends up being $25-27K after rebates without a battery lease I would seriously consider one even though I don't like four-door vehicles and hatch backs and it is a bit ugly IMO.

[eestorfan]

I too saw the Leaf the past weekend and Santana Row. The Leaf was parked outside and man was it cold at night, burr.

I was impressed by the fit and finish. The company reps seemed fairly knowledgeable. Most of the key questions have already been answered in this thread.

Few more items to share:
Battery pack doesn't have memory, so it can be charged even if not fully depleted.

Price should be comparable to a loaded Altima, so about $32k-35k(but $7,500 and $2,500 state rebates to apply) so final price is about $22k-25k plus tax, misc.

City of SF is working with Nissan with a goal of 150,000 charging stations in SF.

Nissan will be accepting $200 refundable deposits shortly which will get people a test drive, deposit position, etc.

Leaf will come in 4-5 colors(black, light blue, can't remember the other colors).

Home charging station will cost about $300-400 with Nissan giving a rebate for 1/2 of the installation/hook-up.

One test run by Nissan using the LA4? test they were able to go 130 miles on a charge.

Definatly considering the vehicle.

A few corrections: ALL LIon batteries have no memory. Price is supposed to be between 25K and 30K, and the 'rebates' by fed and state ARE NOT rebates, but tax credits...big difference! Deposits will be taken in the Spring, not before, so that would be in March. The first 1000 buyers in 2010 (these five states: CA, AZ, OR, WA, TN) will receive a FREE 240v. charging station installed. :)

[solardude]

One test run by Nissan using the LA4? test they were able to go 130 miles on a charge.



as i understand it, "LA4" is testing done at 20 MPH. so, it would take 6.5 hours to go 130 miles? what i'd like to know is what is the range at Highway speeds?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

http://www.greenfuelsforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=731

The LA4 cycle is an urban driving test that runs 7.5 miles and has an average speed of only 19.6 mph. The maximum speed is 56.7 mph on one short stretch but for the most part the driving is at 30 mph or less. The frequent starts and stops are likely to aid the range somewhat through the car's regenerative braking capability, but in real world conditions drivers are more likely to see less than 100 miles of range especially in particularly hot or cold weather conditions.

So, an average of <20mph. The new bit is that it can go (up to?) 130 miles on the LA4; so, maybe the 100 miles we have heard up until now is a more conservative/realistic range?

[Aptera#1434]

Info I received was directly from one of the reps. I knew the Apteraforum pros would set me straight:biggrin:

However, I am concerned about the "LA4" test. Seems to me to be an unrealistic approach to our everyday driving styles for an honest range test.

Interesting article out today in Gas 2.0 by Tim Hurst. re: SF EV charge stations and the Leaf program, "SF and Bay Area will now be the 9th market region Nissan plans in launching the Leaf in the U.S..........sell cars only where there is EV charging infrastructure to support it." (sorry, I don't know how to link this article)

[evmavin]

Here:

http://gas2.org/2009/12/08/nissan-leaf-electric-car-on-the-streets-of-san-francisco-by-2010/#more-4292

[palmer_md]

Leaf forum needs some help...I think we have more threads on the leaf than they do.

This one which is the nissan owners club has only 9 threads and less than 50 posts.
http://forums.nicoclub.com/zeroforum?id=326

Most of the people posting here are not LEAF fans, but Nissan fans, and most don't seem to like the car.

The best thing about the nissan site is the ads that pop up are for Ryobi leaf blowers. I hope they know they are paying for ads on a car forum and not a home improvement store site.

This one has 6 threads and 8 posts.
http://www.leafzero.com/

Other than here and the green car blog sites, the LEAF does not seem to have a big following. Am I missing something? Is Nissan missing something?

[Aptera#1434]

Is there any way to tell when the Leaf forums were started? I found out about the Leaf only a few months ago. Possibly, the majority of the EV followers haven't really found out about it yet. The Nissan Leaf tour may change things.

I'd rather have the Aptera, but Paul Wilber may have ruined the Fambro dream of "The Aptera Vehicle" as we originally grew to love, with his crazy Detroit mentality and changes :mad:

I really only need a two seater EV, so I have kept my Aptera deposit optimistically.

[palmer_md]

Is there any way to tell when the Leaf forums were started? I found out about the Leaf only a few months ago.


8/18/09
10/10/09

respectively.

This forum and the Volt forum started up much more rapidly.

[neoplasticity]

8/18/09
10/10/09

respectively.

This forum and the Volt forum started up much more rapidly.


nissan leaf is plenty popular and if they deliver on what they claim which i think is much more likely than aptera at this point, they will sell as many as they can make.

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#cat=47&q=nissan%20leaf%2CTesla%20Roadster%2CFisker%20Karm a%2CAptera&date=today%203-m&cmpt=q

[evmavin]

nissan leaf is plenty popular and if they deliver on what they claim which i think is much more likely than aptera at this point, they will sell as many as they can make.

http://www.google.com/insights/search/#cat=47&q=nissan%20leaf%2CTesla%20Roadster%2CFisker%20Karm a%2CAptera&date=today%203-m&cmpt=q


Agreed, and it's a different following being a factory type car. Forums mean nothing, this forum would exist if Aptera took a vacation with the deposits, in fact they treat deposit holders like #$^%& and they are still here. Not everyone that desires a vehicle goes to a forum, it's just a different dynamic. The leaf could be vaporware right now but their Marketing is a lesson to still be learned by Aptera, could have brought some funding their way if that's what they really wanted.

[palmer_md]

Agreed, and it's a different following being a factory type car. Forums mean nothing, this forum would exist if Aptera took a vacation with the deposits,

The Volt forum (gm-volt.com) is an independent site based on a "factory" car. That forum developed a huge following immediately following the January 2007 display of the show car at the Detroit auto show.

This forum which is an independent forum that was setup after the Popular Mechanics review of the prototype in December of 2007. This site grew rapidly after it was opened.

I went out to search out information about the LEAF and found that this site has more compiled information than anywhere else. The only places I found information were at the green car blogger sites and I found most of that information was repeated here. This site has way better information about the LEAF than either of the other forums I found. I just thought that that was an interesting observation.

oh, and by the way...there really is not much information about this car. One press release and a lot of speculation and heresay.

[evmavin]

The volt is the most followed vehicle in recent auto history for many reasons, in addition it is also very different than the Nissan. Think about the history here, and if Nissan gets this thing out first it would be quite a bold accomplishment that GM would never undertake on their own. GM has HUGE media coverage on all fronts and dominates the digital marketing front for better or worse. The reasons for attention disparity are very evident. How many people even know what an EV1 is...


PS.- At least they can discuss the LEAF and not the APtera. This forum is all things competitive because Aptera is afraid to discuss anything for fear of the competition, little did they know they were their own worst enemy:) Notice the low activity here....

[speculawyer]

150,000 charging stations in SF, that's like one on every four cars. If the Leaf really ends up being $25-27K after rebates without a battery lease I would seriously consider one even though I don't like four-door vehicles and hatch backs and it is a bit ugly IMO.
I'm pretty sure that at $25K to $27K, there will also be a monthly battery lease fee. If they could build EVs that cheap right now, every car company would be making them.

At that price, they would pay for over half the vehicle cost in gas savings over lifetime of the vehicle (assuming a lifetime of at least 10 years). If gas prices go way up over the next 10 years (definitely possible), such a vehicle could almost pay for itself in gas savings.

If you compare with a 25 mpg gas car driven 12,000 miles a year with an average gas price of $5/gallon over the next 10 years, that would be
((12,000mi/year)/25MPG)*$5/gallon *10 years = $24,000 in gas.

Yes, you would have to pay for electricity but you would also pay less in maintenance.

[speculawyer]

A few corrections: ALL LIon batteries have no memory. Price is supposed to be between 25K and 30K, and the 'rebates' by fed and state ARE NOT rebates, but tax credits...big difference!
Definitely a difference, but I don't know if I'd call it a "big" difference. A $7500 tax credit means you pay $7500 less in taxes that year. As long as you pay at least $7500 in taxes, you do effectively get $7500. (And if you don't pay at least $7500 in taxes, you probably can't afford the car anyway.)

But yeah, you don't get that $7500 back until the next April 15th, so you do lose the 'time value' of that money between when you purchase that car and the next April 15th.

So yeah, it is not a full $7500 . . . it is $7500 minus interest. A difference, but not a "big" difference. Perhaps a 7% difference.

[palmer_md]

So yeah, it is not a full $7500 . . . it is $7500 minus interest. A difference, but not a "big" difference. Perhaps a 7% difference.

I need to get some information from you....where are you getting 7% in todays market? haha, just kidding (sort of).

[evmavin]

I need to get some information from you....where are you getting 7% in todays market? haha, just kidding (sort of).


I'll take half if it's liquid.

[speculawyer]

I need to get some information from you....where are you getting 7% in todays market? haha, just kidding (sort of).
See today's average auto rates across the country. Source: Bankrate.com
Auto Type Today Last Week
36 Month New Car Loan 6.67% 6.67%
48 Month New Car Loan 6.79% 6.78%
60 Month New Car Loan 6.83% 6.82%
72 Month New Car Loan 6.12% 6.12%
36 Month Used Car Loan 7.15% 7.16%
48 Month Used Car Loan 7.00% 7.00%
http://finance.yahoo.com/

So it is actually less than a 7% difference.

You borrow the money to buy the car. You pay that ~6.7% on the $7500 amount for a year (probably less). Then when you get your tax refund that includes the $7500, you pay down $7500 on the loan. So you are only out less than 7% on that extra $7500 you had to borrow. Of course that is around $500 . . . so you get a $7000 rebate instead of $7500. A difference . . . but not a 'big' difference.

[palmer_md]

See today's average auto rates across the country. Source: Bankrate.com
Auto Type Today Last Week
36 Month New Car Loan 6.67% 6.67%
48 Month New Car Loan 6.79% 6.78%
60 Month New Car Loan 6.83% 6.82%
72 Month New Car Loan 6.12% 6.12%
36 Month Used Car Loan 7.15% 7.16%
48 Month Used Car Loan 7.00% 7.00%

http://finance.yahoo.com/

I see where your coming from now. I was looking at it from the view of they had $7500 of my money and if I had it I could be making 7% interest, and I wondered where you would put $7500 to get 7% in todays market. Now I see that I should be lending it to car buyers.

[Rat]

I see where your coming from now. I was looking at it from the view of they had $7500 of my money and if I had it I could be making 7% interest, and I wondered where you would put $7500 to get 7% in todays market. Now I see that I should be lending it to car buyers.
Umm, I hope you have a tow truck, Kevlar underwear, a secured impound lot, and a thick skin for name-calling, threats, and community hatred when you need to repossess the cars when those buyers/borrowers lose their jobs and stop paying. Not a job for the faint of heart.

[hill]

If the Leaf ships, and it has a 100 mile range, wouldn't the question become is the Aptera a viable alternative to the Leaf?

Aside from range,does Aptera offer any advantages?

Holds 4 people, & a bunch more cargo.

Downside for me is the Leaf will most likely not be sold with batteries ... they'll likely be under a seperate lease transaction ... at least that's how Nissan is leaning. Perhaps marketing / sales will eventually realize many folks have negative fealing about that arrangement. We'll see.

[KarenRei]

Holds 4 people, & a bunch more cargo.

That should be "Holds 4 people OR a bunch more cargo". Not "and". Aptera's "trunk" is unusually large because it's so long.

[hill]

That should be "Holds 4 people OR a bunch more cargo". Not "and". Aptera's "trunk" is unusually large because it's so long.

http://usera.imagecave.com/w4abj/ev-s/LeaveSideNrear.jpg

I still stand by 'AND'

From the pictures you can see there's a decent amount of space even with the folding rear seat up.

http://usera.imagecave.com/w4abj/ev-s/Leaf/LeafSTART.jpg

.

[speculawyer]

http://usera.imagecave.com/w4abj/ev-s/LeaveSideNrear.jpg
I still stand by 'AND'
From the picture you can see there's a decent amount of space even with the folding rear seat up.
How can you see that from the picture? You can't even see the rear seat there?

Karen is right . . . the trunk space of the Leaf is not big. Smaller than the Aptera from my eyeball estimation.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto_shows/tokyo/2009/112_0910_nissan_leaf/29835753+w750+st0/2010-nissan-leaf-trunk-space.jpg

Edit: Of course, I think the ability to carry four passengers makes the Leaf WAAAAY more mainstream & practical than the Aptera. I always felt that Aptera would really need to bring on a 4e relatively quickly if they wanted to grow. The market for 2 seaters is very limited . . . and what market there is for 2 seaters is largely for sports cars. Other than the Smart car, can you name a two-seater than is not a sports car?

[mycomya]

Aptera's trunk, in comparison to the LEAF, is positively palatial. Judgement <slam of gavel>: There is way more room for cargo in the Aptera. Aptera wins in this department handily. :jumping0005:

[earther]

Downside for me is the Leaf will most likely not be sold with batteries ... they'll likely be under a separate lease transaction ... at least that's how Nissan is leaning. Perhaps marketing / sales will eventually realize many folks have negative feeling about that arrangement. We'll see.

not sure why you say that -- for me at least, the leasing is a PLUS. It significantly lowers the entry cost of owning an EV, and I don't want to pay extra to own something that is going to be obsoleted every few years as technology improves.

I'm curious as to your reason for preferring the other way. The only drawback I can think of is that if Nissan goes loco and decides they want their battery back, then that's tantamount to taking the car back. However, presumably even if that were to occur, some third party battery manufacturer would swoop in and make a killing on replacements.

[aptera1213]

i don't like leasing because it makes little sense for me...

i don't want a car payment and a battery payment each month...

i drive about 5 thousand miles a year on a scooter...currently i pay about 5 bucks a week for gas...i was hoping to get an electric car and pay about 5 bucks a week in electricity...and stop buying gas (well i will still scooter some days as scooter is fun)

so i figure i can add a car payment...and 20 bucks a week added to my electric bill...20 bucks removed from my gasoline bill...

but if i add 150 bucks a month for a battery bill, well i guess i should keep to my scooter (which i will anyways...love riding that thing)

basically the aptera was going to be an affordable electric car...maybe that won't be happening anymore, but that was the plan...

the leaf is trying for the affordable electric car too...for an electric car...

but if they are selling it as a 35,000 dollar car and also 150 bucks a month for the battery, well the leaf will struggle...

i will pay more for a car if it helps the world and if it cuts out gas...

but you can't ask for people to pay 3x the cost and have no savings at the pump (nissan says the battery payments equal your gas payments if you drive 15,000 miles a year...so electric = gas...but the car price is 2 to 3 times more than a similar gas car? so no fuel costs savings? and less range?? so basically only eco-nuts need apply...not a good long term plan).

now again i want to be free of gas and all that...and will pay a bit of a premium and take a bit of a hit on range and convenience and all that...but if nissan wants me to pay 35000 for the car and also lease the battery...well i can get a prius for less and i can basically buy 2 tricked out fits for that, 3 if i want to go basic model.

i know it will take some time for the prices to come down. but if they are asking 2 to 3 times the cost for less ability (really much less to be honest) and you still have to pay high energy costs (the whole idea is electric costs a lot less than gas...but not in nissan's case...they believe your battery should cost the same as gas for 15,000 miles...which of course in my case means that the battery would cost 3 times what gas costs as i don't drive 15 thousand miles a year...heck, that means the electric costs would be about the same as if gas was 9 bucks a gallon...gahhhh)...

now if nissan wants to sell me the leaf for less than 20,000 and add the battery cost, maybe that would work...so it could work in 5 years when the cost of all this new stuff has dropped...and maybe nissan will be ok selling a few thousand a year for the next five years...

but who will be buying those few thousand cars? not to poor people. the lead ain't competing with all those aveos on the road.
probably not to the middle class (again, a fit or even prius is a much better "fit" for the middle class).
probably not to the mildly rich as they will buy the telsa s or fisker.
the really rich won't even look at a leaf...

so the market is a few activist, a few green people (who probably are on bikes mostly anyways...like me) and a few people who want to be cutting edge, but can't afford the tesla or fisker...

not a huge market. and that market will be tapped in the first 2 years...

nobody likes 2 car bills...heck, it will be three i guess: car payment, battery payment, increased electric bill.


the idea is electric is less than gas and that is a plus for electric cars...but leasing counteracts that plus

and at this early stage that is one of the few pluses electric cars have (along with quiet, great torque, no dependence on foreign oil, hopefully decrease greenhouse emissions)

[NeilBlanchard]

I think that compared to a typical car, the battery lease payment and the electric bill would together be similar to the gasoline bill for the same time period?

In the Aptera anyway, $20 of electricity would get you 1,000-2,000 miles -- that's a very long way in a week!

[aptera1213]

and that is what nissan is trying to sell

if you drive 15,000 miles a year the battery lease is the same as buying gas

(now for me that is a loss as i drive 1/3 that...so the battery lease would cost 3 times what i pay in gas...actually more as i get 60 miles to the gallon...infinity miles to the gallon when i bicycle to work in the summer :) )

but the main losing point is that the car cost 2 times what a similar gas car costs...

so if i buy a leaf and follow nissan's lease plan i don't save any on gas costs and my car payment is double what i would pay if i got a loaded senta?...and i can't drive it more than 50 miles before i have to head home (less actually)...

the idea is that i pay more for the car, but in the long run i save because electricity is so much less than gas...

nissan has just killed that aspect of the electric car...
the whole, "sure an electric car is more expensive now, but over the life of the car you will recoup that loss by not buying gas" is gone...

i'm not sure the whole, "this battery is the same as buying gas" is a winning strategy...most people will just think, "ok, why not just buy a gas car if electric is the same as gas and this electric car is freakin' expensive?"

ps...i pay 20 bucks a month in gas, not a week....

[mweston]

i don't like leasing because it makes little sense for me...

i don't want a car payment and a battery payment each month...

i drive about 5 thousand miles a year on a scooter...currently i pay about 5 bucks a week for gas...i was hoping to get an electric car and pay about 5 bucks a week in electricity...and stop buying gas (well i will still scooter some days as scooter is fun)

so i figure i can add a car payment...and 20 bucks a week added to my electric bill...20 bucks removed from my gasoline bill...

but if i add 150 bucks a month for a battery bill, well i guess i should keep to my scooter (which i will anyways...love riding that thing)
...Two things:

First, if you're a scooter rider already, why don't you buy one of the electric scooters or motorcycles out there? They're way cheaper. I was planning to buy a Vectrix in late 2007, but halfway through the class to get my motorcycle license I decided I just wasn't a motorcycle guy. And then I found the Aptera.

Second, is the $150/month for the battery real or just a guess? Even with 15,000 miles/year (41 miles/day, which seems high given most people's commute is less than that, and you stay home some days), at $3/gallon, that works out to 25mpg. I would say that 12,000 miles/year and 40mpg would make way more sense (which works out to $75/month). Or 12,000 mile/year and 30mpg gets you $100/month. Charging $150/month would seriously limit their customer list.

[palmer_md]

Second, is the $150/month for the battery real or just a guess?

oh, and by the way...there really is not much information about this car. One press release and a lot of speculation and heresay.

Press Release link - http://www.nissanleafforum.com/opening-news.shtml (http://www.nissanleafforum.com/opening-news.shtml)

quoting myself. wow, I've stooped to a new low....

[RainCaster]

The LEAF could get my money, but I need more information first. Like real-world tests by someone who knows EVs, and included full ratings for range and capacity.

[aptera1213]

First, if you're a scooter rider already, why don't you buy one of the electric scooters or motorcycles out there?

oh i imagine i will always be a bike and scooter rider...but i have 2 scooters and 2 bicycles...don't really need another...and an electric scooter doesn't really add much to my "Stable"....now if my little scooter dies (150cc), a small electric scooter could be in my future...my bigger scooter is 500cc and i use it to visit my daughter in phoenix...no current electric scooter could replace the function it serves (500 miles in a day is hard in any electric car or scooter at this time)

at the same time i'm closing in on 50 and will need to grow-up and get a car someday...

i told myself i would get any car i wanted at 50...was leaning at the time i made this pack with myself toward one of those lexus sports cars...

then i saw the aptera and knew i could have something i loved that also was good for the environment and the future...

so now it is electric or nothing for me...

since the lexus would have been 60 grand plus, i might just go the telsa s route...

but the aptera also made me rethink costs and needs and all that...

so i would love an aptera, or an iMiev or a Leaf...heck, VW make that Uplite an electric and i would love that too...

but the aptera has made me want an electric for under 35k...with the batteries...

maybe i can get that...maybe i can't....but that is still my plan

so give me that aptera or iMiev or Leaf or....and make it semi-affordable (as a guy who hasn't had a car in 5 years, and before that it was a VW Golf that cost less than 18k...well, 35k is Gates/Jobs kinda cash ;) ), give me a range of 75 miles or more and i'm set...


but i could jump ship and get the baby tesla....though i would be way back in line...and that fisker is smoking hot...but i can't go that rich (and it still has the oil issue).

heck, ford make the new fiesta a EV and I'd hit that...or honda make the fit an EV and I'd hit that...(or that HondaEV...damn cute...sadly will never be made)

i just want freakin' EVs to be made and on the road...

and one in my garage crammed up next to my scooters and bikes :)

[aptera1213]

of course if next year it seems EVs are not a viable option (delays, issues, costs) i could just get a Fit and drive that for 5 years waiting for the EVs to catch up...

basically i wanted to be an early adopter because somebody needs to take the risks and spread the costs a bit until the numbers help bring the costs down and technology helps get the range up...

costs down and range up will get EVs to compete with gas cars

i can deal with the range being low...i have a short commute

i'm kinda upper middle class, so costs aren't a huge issue...but tell me the true costs...

i'd buy an aptera at 30 to 35k...i'd buy an iMiev at 30 to 35k...i'd buy a leaf at 30 to 35k...but tell me the real cost is 45k and i'd rather get the Tesla...

if the leaf is 30 plus k and the battery is 150 a month...i get the Tesla or i get the honda fit and wait a few years...sadly....because if i'm not buying an EV (and i am reading autobloggreen and treehugger everyday) then very few people will be buying an EV...and that just delays everything

[evmavin]

of course if next year it seems EVs are not a viable option (delays, issues, costs) i could just get a Fit and drive that for 5 years waiting for the EVs to catch up...

basically i wanted to be an early adopter because somebody needs to take the risks and spread the costs a bit until the numbers help bring the costs down and technology helps get the range up...

costs down and range up will get EVs to compete with gas cars

i can deal with the range being low...i have a short commute

i'm kinda upper middle class, so costs aren't a huge issue...but tell me the true costs...

i'd buy an aptera at 30 to 35k...i'd buy an iMiev at 30 to 35k...i'd buy a leaf at 30 to 35k...but tell me the real cost is 45k and i'd rather get the Tesla...

if the leaf is 30 plus k and the battery is 150 a month...i get the Tesla or i get the honda fit and wait a few years...sadly....because if i'm not buying an EV (and i am reading autobloggreen and treehugger everyday) then very few people will be buying an EV...and that just delays everything



If an APtera starts to push 40K then I would jump up to a Tesla for sure.

[aptera1213]

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/19/nissan-to-lease-leaf-battery-for-150-month/4#comments

that said, it is not written in stone...

also, while leasing the battery seems illogical to me (i hate the idea of two bills for one car), leasing the whole car might not be a bad idea...

personally i don't usually like the idea of leasing a car (i buy one i like and drive it for 15 years, rinse and repeat), but it might make sense here...

[evmavin]

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/19/nissan-to-lease-leaf-battery-for-150-month/4#comments

that said, it is not written in stone...

also, while leasing the battery seems illogical to me (i hate the idea of two bills for one car), leasing the whole car might not be a bad idea...

personally i don't usually like the idea of leasing a car (i buy one i like and drive it for 15 years, rinse and repeat), but it might make sense here...


A reasonable two year lease would be perfect, they get testing data and I move to version 2.0 of whatever and Aptera may have a third prototype rendering to talk about.

[speculawyer]

and that is what nissan is trying to sell

if you drive 15,000 miles a year the battery lease is the same as buying gas

(now for me that is a loss as i drive 1/3 that...so the battery lease would cost 3 times what i pay in gas...actually more as i get 60 miles to the gallon...infinity miles to the gallon when i bicycle to work in the summer :) )

but the main losing point is that the car cost 2 times what a similar gas car costs...

so if i buy a leaf and follow nissan's lease plan i don't save any on gas costs and my car payment is double what i would pay if i got a loaded senta?...and i can't drive it more than 50 miles before i have to head home (less actually)...

the idea is that i pay more for the car, but in the long run i save because electricity is so much less than gas...

nissan has just killed that aspect of the electric car...
the whole, "sure an electric car is more expensive now, but over the life of the car you will recoup that loss by not buying gas" is gone...

i'm not sure the whole, "this battery is the same as buying gas" is a winning strategy...most people will just think, "ok, why not just buy a gas car if electric is the same as gas and this electric car is freakin' expensive?"

ps...i pay 20 bucks a month in gas, not a week....

You do realize that all of your criticism here against the Leaf applies just as much to the Aptera, right? A gas powered aptera (that is the fair equal comparison) would be much less expensive and get amazing gas mileage and thus make the 2e (electric) Aptera look like a really bad deal.

[aptera1213]

yes...and i freely admit that i always was prepared to "pay a premium" to help start up EVs. i know early adopters will pay more and get less...happened with computers, HDTV, bluray...etc etc...cars have become more like high tech devises...

but i went with aptera for a few reasons...the low price was one...obviously that has risen...

still i don't mind paying a bit more...

but having two payments for one car is just wrong...

perhaps time will alter that feeling...like having a computer without a floppy drive...seemed crazy at the time, now you can't find one with a floppy drive...

gas cars, for now, will always be a "better" deal cost wise...that will change slowly...but having an electric be a lot more in cost and not have the fuel be cheaper is hard to swallow...basically we were told that yes the car will cost more, but if you keep the car for 10 years or whatever, well the cheap cost of electricity will make your overall costs come down...leasing the battery combats that advantage...and electrics need all the advantages they can get at startup...their drawbacks are too big...can't start out by killing one of the major benefits...

[earther]

...but who will be buying those few thousand cars? not to poor people. the lead ain't competing with all those aveos on the road.
probably not to the middle class (again, a fit or even prius is a much better "fit" for the middle class)...

oh, i dunno about that. While I don't qualify as "poor" (i.e. I no longer have to go to bed hungry), I would still have to qualify myself as a far cry from "middle class". To put it in perspective, the cost of an Aptera (or Leaf for that matter) is more than my entire annual salary. Nevertheless, it's a priority to get one over any model of ICE. I don't think one has to be an "eco nut" (as you put it), to care about the future habitability of the planet over one's personal short-term conveniences; I think it's more than rational to spend some extra money and sacrifice some car range if it means my children (or grandchildren) will be more likely to have clean air to breathe and water to drink. And the fact that (at least some portion of) gas money spent winds up in the hands of regimes that supports terrorism, treats women as second class citizens, and executes gays.. that cinches the deal for me.
then again, i might very well be the exception that proves the rule.

[Rat]

I'm with Aptera1213. I drive very little and really don't want to pay to lease the battery, especially if it's pegged at 15000 mi/yr worth of gas. I'd be subsidizing those who drive a lot more, a negative incentive to being environmentally sensitive adn an unfair hit to my pocketbook. But I don't see any particular problem with two payments a month for a car, although I'd pay cash for the purchase so would only have the battery lease anyway, but it's the total cost not the total number of payments that matter. When you drive an ICE you have the car payment and the gas payments (credit card probably, maybe several different ones) separately anyway. Since the electric bill is one you pay already, it wouldn't be added to your total number of bills. The Leaf lease would be no more total bills than with an ICE.
Back to the leasing idea - I'd rather buy and take the chance the battery would become obsolete. At my age and limited driving I'll probably be dead or too old to drive by the time the battery needs to be replaced by whatever is the newest technology in 20 or 30 years.

[speculawyer]

I'm with Aptera1213. I drive very little and really don't want to pay to lease the battery, especially if it's pegged at 15000 mi/yr worth of gas. I'd be subsidizing those who drive a lot more, a negative incentive to being environmentally sensitive adn an unfair hit to my pocketbook. But I don't see any particular problem with two payments a month for a car, although I'd pay cash for the purchase so would only have the battery lease anyway, but it's the total cost not the total number of payments that matter. When you drive an ICE you have the car payment and the gas payments (credit card probably, maybe several different ones) separately anyway. Since the electric bill is one you pay already, it wouldn't be added to your total number of bills. The Leaf lease would be no more total bills than with an ICE.
Back to the leasing idea - I'd rather buy and take the chance the battery would become obsolete. At my age and limited driving I'll probably be dead or too old to drive by the time the battery needs to be replaced by whatever is the newest technology in 20 or 30 years.
I think the 15,000 number is just an arbitrary number picked to make the battery lease cost approximately equal what people would pay for gas each month and it ends when the battery cost is paid off. It is not like you'd be subsidizing others. And I would hope/assume they will have the option of buying the whole thing up front.

The 'protect you from the battery being obsolete' is a rationalization they throw in there but the real reason for the battery release is to just reduce the upfront cost of the car.

[randyd]

not sure why you say that -- for me at least, the leasing is a PLUS. It significantly lowers the entry cost of owning an EV, and I don't want to pay extra to own something that is going to be obsoleted every few years as technology improves.

I keep all of my vehicles 10+ years. And the way I figure it, the lease payments will go on for as long as I own it. If I finance the cost of buying the battery, I finish paying for them in 5 years. And depending on how well I take care of them, I expect them to last (for me) much longer than 5 years. So, in the long run, leasing looks to be way more expensive than buying given my plans.

AND, if I own the battery, I can choose to recycle the old batteries and upgrade to newer technology when I like, not when an accountant in Japan thinks upgrading is in Nissan's best interests. Having a specified minimum battery pack capacity helps by triggering an upgrade if the battery fails prematurely, but a lease leaves you at the mercy of other people's priorities and preferences.

However, an overriding factor is the cost of one plan vs. the other. Nissan will get to write off the depreciated value of those batteries over time and *may* pass that savings on to me, who cannot write off the depreciation. The cost structure of leasing *could* be so favorable as to make buying the battery silly. The early numbers suggest I will be better off buying, but without final numbers, I don't know yet.

Finally, let's remember that the battery pack size translates directly to vehicle cost, whether the battery is leased or purchased. And, thanks to the efficiency of the design, the 2e battery pack will be less expensive AND give you greater usable range than the Leaf and it's battery.

[mycomya]

I suspect that Nissan has already considered most of the points made here and will offer the choice of either buying or leasing the battery. Some people have reasons to buy, others to lease. As far as Nissan goes, they can make money either way; they just want to move vehicles off the lots. There's no reason to limit the popularity of this car by restricting battery ownership or battery lease opportunities.

Personally, I'm hoping that the flexibility will be extended from there, so that if you initially choose to lease the battery, you will have the option to either buy or lease the subsequent battery available for the Leaf. I'm a bit hesitant to buy the first generation battery pack of the first commercial EV model. But given a few years of on-road testing, further technological development, and market maturation of the lithium-based automotive battery, I'd be more inclined to buy the battery for the long haul once the first battery's lease has expired.

[jkyu99]

GM EV1 was lease only option. There was never an option at the end of lease. It was closed out and required to be turned in. I do not want to lease the battery and buy the frame and seats. At the end of the lease, if Nissan wanted to pull a GM, all I would have is the empty frame and seats.

No one believed GM was going to take 100% of all the cars back and crush the heck out of them and sell monster SUV gas guzzlers. I read maybe someone else would step in and supply special Nissan Leaf batteries. How long do patents last? This won't be a pep-boys option. It will be Nissan's noose around my neck.
:sign0003:

[evmavin]

GM EV1 was lease only option. There was never an option at the end of lease. It was closed out and required to be turned in. I do not want to lease the battery and buy the frame and seats. At the end of the lease, if Nissan wanted to pull a GM, all I would have is the empty frame and seats.

No one believed GM was going to take 100% of all the cars back and crush the heck out of them and sell monster SUV gas guzzlers. I read maybe someone else would step in and supply special Nissan Leaf batteries. How long do patents last? This won't be a pep-boys option. It will be Nissan's noose around my neck.
:sign0003:


I think buying an EV this early in the game is a bad idea. If there are leases I would go that route since there will most likely be much better options a few years after the initial purchase and I'll let someone else take the depreciation if possible. Imagine buying the last Prius model and then the very next year a plug-in model is available, the resale value will sink on the old model much more since each Prius model variation was relative to gas only models and the changes are a much larger leap as in the case of early battery advancement. Cassette to Ipod gen 1.

In two years if the Leaf goes to a 150-200 mile range it would be like going from 30mpg to 60. In the EV space, those who "keep cars for ten years" will have very obsolete vehicles since the battery tech will be the rapid changing factor and most likely not upgradable until model specific packs are standardized, even then with radical technology changes the form factor may not be compatible. This is why a lease may be a smart move for the next few years on the entire vehicle unless you have very deep pockets for an upgrade. If the leaf were $20K after rebates it would not be a concern as the hit would be be as large but regardless in three years one could be driving a severely range limited vehicle.

On the upside, auto makers must support the vehicles parts for ten years so one should be able to at least get another low range pack or hope that the car sold millions and there is a better replacement solution.

[eestorfan]

oh, i dunno about that. While I don't qualify as "poor" (i.e. I no longer have to go to bed hungry), I would still have to qualify myself as a far cry from "middle class". To put it in perspective, the cost of an Aptera (or Leaf for that matter) is more than my entire annual salary. Nevertheless, it's a priority to get one over any model of ICE. I don't think one has to be an "eco nut" (as you put it), to care about the future habitability of the planet over one's personal short-term conveniences; I think it's more than rational to spend some extra money and sacrifice some car range if it means my children (or grandchildren) will be more likely to have clean air to breathe and water to drink. And the fact that (at least some portion of) gas money spent winds up in the hands of regimes that supports terrorism, treats women as second class citizens, and executes gays.. that cinches the deal for me.
then again, i might very well be the exception that proves the rule.
I'm with you Earther! A 'fit' or 'prius' is an ICE. 'Nuff said.

[hill]

I think buying an EV this early in the game is a bad idea. .
. . . . . . . . . . snip
.

Only thing is, if everyone has the same mind set ... "I won't buy until year 2 or 3 ..." then production halts & the model goes away. Also ... most folk hate the thought of no option between buying and leasing and that's why most folks buy, rather than lease.

[evmavin]

Only thing is, if everyone has the same mind set ... "I won't buy until year 2 or 3 ..." then production halts & the model goes away. Also ... most folk hate the thought of no option between buying and leasing and that's why most folks buy, rather than lease.


That meant buying when you have the option to lease instead, not passing on the vehicle completely!

[DSC OFF]

Other than the Smart car, can you name a two-seater than is not a sports car?

http://blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c669e20120a4f54d69970b-800wi

[KarenRei]

Indeed. Vehicles like Aptera are almost like pickups with small, enclosed beds. A long, flat space to put your stuff. Now, total payload weight is limited and you can't have stuff sticking up out of the roof, but it's still a good amount of flat storage area.

I find the lack of such a space in some of their "competitors" (eVaro, etc) to be a significant disadvantage.

[evmavin]

Indeed. Vehicles like Aptera are almost like pickups with small, enclosed beds. A long, flat space to put your stuff. Now, total payload weight is limited and you can't have stuff sticking up out of the roof, but it's still a good amount of flat storage area.

I find the lack of such a space in some of their "competitors" (eVaro, etc) to be a significant disadvantage.


Good point Karen, one that is often missed.

[Stunt Driver]

Leaf with generic batteries?

Just wonder, what is so special about Leaf's batteries, except charging?

Let's say I fit Leaf with ThunderSky batteries of the same voltage, and custom charger. Ofcourse, i'll have a little less of batteries, since form factor will be different, but I'll know I own them for good.
So, how much is an empty chassis?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

The Leaf's batteries are prismatic, and I think they are polymer? They fit under the floor:

http://assets.gearlive.com/blogimages/gallery/nissan-leaf/nissan_leaf_battery_a_medium.jpg

I think it would be very hard to fit just any old non-prismatic battery in there; let alone get the right voltages and amperage with the Nissan control systems.

[Stunt Driver]

there are plenty of LiFePo prismatic cells, TS for example. Getting voltage right is easy, but fooling onboard battery management system may be a trick. Still, thinking of leased batteries not being available, or price beeing too high - could someone go down that path?

[Rat]

Indeed. Vehicles like Aptera are almost like pickups with small, enclosed beds. A long, flat space to put your stuff. Now, total payload weight is limited and you can't have stuff sticking up out of the roof, but it's still a good amount of flat storage area.

I find the lack of such a space in some of their "competitors" (eVaro, etc) to be a significant disadvantage.
I agree. The storage space is one of the significant attractions of the 2e in my book, which is why I was a bit disappointed at the Palo Alto showing when they said the pp6 had a higher floor in the back than the production models would have. I wanted to see what the real carrying capacity would be. On the other hand, the Leaf showed its production version in San Jose and the hatchback design, with fold-down rear seats, definitely provides the desired space. It's clearly larger than the Versa.

[evmavin]

I agree. The storage space is one of the significant attractions of the 2e in my book, which is why I was a bit disappointed at the Palo Alto showing when they said the pp6 had a higher floor in the back than the production models would have. I wanted to see what the real carrying capacity would be. On the other hand, the Leaf showed it's production version in San Jose and the hatchback design, with fold-down rear seats, definitely provides the desired space. It's clearly larger than the Versa.


The Leaf is functional in size and is a great attempt at an EV, if they can give it a real-world range of 100 miles and keep the pack under 33 kwh then it could do well. I don't see 100 miles of real driving with a 24 kwh pack and a car of that weight, only at 45 MPH

[NeilBlanchard]

Do we know if the Leaf is using a supercapacitor, in conjunction with the battery? These can significantly unload the battery -- a quote from this article:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/automotive/carnegie_mellon_customizing_electric_cars_cost_143 837.html

The researchers calculate that an intelligent electric car controller could recapture 48 percent of the energy during braking and that a supercapacitor could reduce 56 percent of the load on the batteries and reduce heating of the batteries — which shortens battery life — by 53 percent.

[evmavin]

Do we know if the Leaf is using a supercapacitor, in conjunction with the battery? These can significantly unload the battery -- a quote from this article:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/automotive/carnegie_mellon_customizing_electric_cars_cost_143 837.html


I get the feeling Nissan fully expects to trash their first packs with high DOD, if not they need to increase the stated pack size, perhaps a battery lease will be the intended way to cover replacement for gen II packs.

[KarenRei]

I get the feeling Nissan fully expects to trash their first packs with high DOD, if not they need to increase the stated pack size, perhaps a battery lease will be the intended way to cover replacement for gen II packs.

I suspect the same thing. They're probably financially writing off paying for multiple packs per vehicle at this point and hoping that they don't have to.

[evmavin]

I suspect the same thing. They're probably financially writing off paying for multiple packs per vehicle at this point and hoping that they don't have to.


It makes sense, they look good if they replace them, they get data, first to market, etc. The first EV may not be a money maker but that it takes an investment. Just like the Prius.

[kerbe]

Do we know if the Leaf is using a supercapacitor, in conjunction with the battery? These can significantly unload the battery -- a quote from this article:

I've wondered about that, too -- but for EVERY EV. Supercapacitors are great for sudden high demand -- like a freeway onramp, or passing in traffic -- things that quickly deplete a battery. One would think that both technologies would be incorporated...

[KarenRei]

There's the issue that every cubic foot taken up by a supercapacitor is a cubic foot that could have been providing you extra range. The range contribution of a supercapacitor is basically negligible.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

The study going on at Carnegie Mellon says that a small supercapacitor adds a lot of range -- the battery stays much cooler, because the supercap takes the short duration high demand, and it can absorb the short duration charging from regenerative braking, so you can gain a lot more from this than if you try to dump it into the battery right away.

A combination of a battery and a supercap that is ~1/500 as large as the battery adds a lot to the system: up to 48% regeneration, it unloads the battery 56% of the time in city driving, which lowers the battery temp by up to 53%. A cooler battery keeps more of its charge, and it lasts a lot longer, too.

Here's the lecture at Carnegie Mellon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCArK17Hu1M

[lapwing]

There's the issue that every cubic foot taken up by a supercapacitor is a cubic foot that could have been providing you extra range. The range contribution of a supercapacitor is basically negligible.

That is the conventional wisdom, but I am certain it's wrong. The conventional capacitor bank hookup is in parallel with the battery, running at battery pack volts, and that is indeed a big-ass capacitor bank with a large headcount- more than the batteries by a quite a lot.

A discrete buffering system with a smart controller, and a small, powerful, and compact super-cap bundle is in the works. The ideas, the technology it is right there - like the Aptera itself it takes time, to get it done.

motor <=>motor controller<=>capacitor controller<=>capacitor bank 1kWhr
motor<=> motor controller<=>battery pack 17kWhr


one motor - one motor controller but two power sources The battery is mostly one way out. The capacitor controller is the I/O buffer, dealing with the I/O stress.

It's absolutely gonna be the way to go until batteries behave more like capacitors.

[KarenRei]

The study going on at Carnegie Mellon says that a small supercapacitor adds a lot of range -- the battery stays much cooler, because the supercap takes the short duration high demand, and it can absorb the short duration charging from regenerative braking, so you can gain a lot more from this than if you try to dump it into the battery right away.

I seriously have to question that. I've seen the efficiency numbers for li-ion batteries in rapid charging, and I don't think I've ever seen below 94%. Durability, sure, but range? I can't see much improvement.

(Sorry -- I don't have time to watch a Youtube video)

There's the issue that every cubic foot taken up by a supercapacitor is a cubic foot that could have been providing you extra range. The range contribution of a supercapacitor is basically negligible.

That is the conventional wisdom, but I am certain it's wrong. The conventional capacitor bank hookup is in parallel with the battery, running at battery pack volts, and that is indeed a big-ass capacitor bank with a large headcount- more than the batteries by a quite a lot.

How does this change the fact that the supercapacitor:

A) takes up volume, and
B) has negligible Wh/L (from a range standpoint)?

We're talking around 2% the volumetric energy density (~7Wh/l vs. ~500Wh/l cobalt and ~300Wh/l phosphate). Every liter you fill up with supercapacitors (and their negligible Wh/L) is a liter you could have filled up with high energy density li-ions.

motor <=>motor controller<=>capacitor controller<=>capacitor bank 1kWhr
motor<=> motor controller<=>battery pack 17kWhr

The ultracapacitor you describe is as much as four times the size of the battery pack you describe. So you could have as much as 5x the battery capacity if you eliminated said ultracapacitor (meaning 1/5th the charge/discharge rate, too).

I'm not saying that ultracapacitors are useless. I'm just pointing out why they're not generally used. They're *really* bulky, and EVs typically don't have a lot of room to spare.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

I will try to answer some of your points later, if I can, and I fully admit that I am just starting to learn about these EV things. (My Saturday morning requires me to wait to go into more detail.)

But, the video I linked to (that was originally posted by someone else here on the forum) is a full hour-plus long college (graduate level?) lecture by a professor of robotics at Carnegie Mellon University, named Illah Nourbakhsh.

Carnegie Mellon Robotics Institute professor Illah Nourbakhsh presents the CREATE Lab project ChargeCar, a community approach to electric cars.
The lecture is part of the Sustainability and Computer Science Seminar, a forum for discussion of ways in which computer science can and will contribute to sustainability, energy, and the environment, and to foster greater consciousness, conversation, and collaboration in this area.

For more on CREATE Lab, visit: http://www.createlab.ri.cmu.edu

For more on the Sustainability and Computer Science Seminar, visit: http://seminar.living-environments.net

Professor Nourbakhsh talks about his personal connections to EV's at the beginning of the lecture: he was on the team that built a solar powered EV that raced from Florida to Detroit, and he was one of that car's drivers. He currently drives a 2001 RAV4 EV, that they have used to gather the raw data used at the beginning of this project, and they have now built another EV conversion, for the express purposes of gathering more data about the requirements on all the parts of an EV.

PLEASE watch this particular "YouTube video" -- I hope you find it as enlightening as I did.

[Schrodinger]

I also watched the video, and if you have the time, I highly recommend it. The thesis is discussed between 24:30 and 32:27, but you'll miss some of the methodology.

The point of the capacitor wasn't to increase range, but to smooth the loading on the battery, which will improve battery lifetimes and reduce total cost of ownership of an EV.

So far as the size of the capacitor is concerned, the test vehicle is build to run on only 48V due to concerns of safety and cost. Is a low voltage capacitor much smaller?

[NeilBlanchard]

Okay, I have more time now, and I've got RadioParadise.com playin', so here is a bit more of the important parts of the video lecture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCArK17Hu1M); in no particular order:

Using GPS and elevation info can help regain as much as 48% of the energy back through regenerative braking, in “city” driving. After they had optimized the size of the supercapacitor (it was ~50Wh or only 1/500th the size of the battery, and it cost ~$1,000 IIRC) and hooked it up in a “dumb” circuit, they got about 40% gain. So, having the software controlled “learning” regenerative braking and battery/supercap systems, gained a fair bit more.

And having enough of a supercap buffer, you could use virtually only regenerative braking even when stopping hard; except in an emergency, or at the very end coming to a full stop. Most vehicles now are limited to only light regenerative braking.

This unloaded the battery 56% of the time (as compared to having no supercap) and the temperature was kept as much as 53% lower; thereby avoiding much of the “Peukert effect (http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca/otherbats.html), if the batteries are prone to this. The supercap acts as an energy cache, and it is used to provide/absorb all high current charging/discharging. (http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/automotive/carnegie_mellon_customizing_electric_cars_cost_143 837.html

Professor Nourbakhsh doesn't go into “highway” driving (much?) in this lecture, but I would imagine that such “learning” software that has relevant elevation info based on the GPS location could be used to better use the supercap to go up hills and to go down hills – just enough regenerative braking could be used to control/optimize speed and to regain as much energy as possible. The supercap can be used to charge the battery (when more regenerative braking is anticipated) at a rate it can handle with out stress – and vis versa. Again, the supercap acts as a buffering cache to limit the stress on the battery, and to regain all the power possible – without a supercap, the regenerative braking has to be limited by the ability of the battery to absorb it w/o overheating.

More thinking out loud by me: a “smart” cruise control could be implemented on the highway (that would benefit ICE-only and hybrids, too): using the same GPS location info connected to accurate elevation info, a lot more efficient control could be made. Instead of the “dumb” speed control we have now, it would be better to have an accelerator position control, that let you slow down a little (over a range you select) before adding more power to keep above a certain minimum speed. If you starting going faster (with a tail wind and/or a downhill) then you could gain a little speed (again set by the driver) and then it would go into a coasting mode, and then if the speed still went above a maximum speed some regeneration (or throttle braking in an ICE-only car) could be eased on enough to keep below that maximum speed.

Depending on the design goals, the battery could be smaller and/or have more range, and in any case, it would probably last longer. It could probably be less expensive, since it would not have to be designed for the current extremes that would be there w/o a supercapacitor. So, you could save some weight (which would gain you some better efficiency) or you could afford to put in a larger battery. Whew, there are a lot of possibilities.

Professor Nourbakhsh does go into some details on the choices they made for their test vehicle: the main one was they chose a low voltage – 48V, so the cost of the supercapacitor was kept reasonable. This required them to use four motors (in parallel, IIANM), and they had to use heavy cables to handle the current.

The original poster of this video (lapwing) also posted a link about “split-pi”controllers. These are 2-way DC-to-DC convertors that can increase the voltage as much as 2X and decrease it by up to half in the other direction. This would (possibly?) let you use a 48V supercapacitor with a 96V battery and motor. People with a lot more knowledge than I can jump in any time!

[kerbe]

That was fun to read!

[evmavin]

Okay, I have more time now, and I've got RadioParadise.com playin', so here is a bit more of the important parts of the video lecture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCArK17Hu1M); in no particular order:

Using GPS and elevation info can help regain as much as 48% of the energy back through regenerative braking, in “city” driving. After they had optimized the size of the supercapacitor (it was ~50Wh or only 1/500th the size of the battery, and it cost ~$1,000 IIRC) and hooked it up in a “dumb” circuit, they got about 40% gain. So, having the software controlled “learning” regenerative braking and battery/supercap systems, gained a fair bit more.

And having enough of a supercap buffer, you could use virtually only regenerative braking even when stopping hard; except in an emergency, or at the very end coming to a full stop. Most vehicles now are limited to only light regenerative braking.

This unloaded the battery 56% of the time (as compared to having no supercap) and the temperature was kept as much as 53% lower; thereby avoiding much of the “Peukert effect (http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca/otherbats.html), if the batteries are prone to this. The supercap acts as an energy cache, and it is used to provide/absorb all high current charging/discharging. (http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/automotive/carnegie_mellon_customizing_electric_cars_cost_143 837.html

Professor Nourbakhsh doesn't go into “highway” driving (much?) in this lecture, but I would imagine that such “learning” software that has relevant elevation info based on the GPS location could be used to better use the supercap to go up hills and to go down hills – just enough regenerative braking could be used to control/optimize speed and to regain as much energy as possible. The supercap can be used to charge the battery (when more regenerative braking is anticipated) at a rate it can handle with out stress – and vis versa. Again, the supercap acts as a buffering cache to limit the stress on the battery, and to regain all the power possible – without a supercap, the regenerative braking has to be limited by the ability of the battery to absorb it w/o overheating.

More thinking out loud by me: a “smart” cruise control could be implemented on the highway (that would benefit ICE-only and hybrids, too): using the same GPS location info connected to accurate elevation info, a lot more efficient control could be made. Instead of the “dumb” speed control we have now, it would be better to have an accelerator position control, that let you slow down a little (over a range you select) before adding more power to keep above a certain minimum speed. If you starting going faster (with a tail wind and/or a downhill) then you could gain a little speed (again set by the driver) and then it would go into a coasting mode, and then if the speed still went above a maximum speed some regeneration (or throttle braking in an ICE-only car) could be eased on enough to keep below that maximum speed.

Depending on the design goals, the battery could be smaller and/or have more range, and in any case, it would probably last longer. It could probably be less expensive, since it would not have to be designed for the current extremes that would be there w/o a supercapacitor. So, you could save some weight (which would gain you some better efficiency) or you could afford to put in a larger battery. Whew, there are a lot of possibilities.

Professor Nourbakhsh does go into some details on the choices they made for their test vehicle: the main one was they chose a low voltage – 48V, so the cost of the supercapacitor was kept reasonable. This required them to use four motors (in parallel, IIANM), and they had to use heavy cables to handle the current.

The original poster of this video (lapwing) also posted a link about “split-pi”controllers. These are 2-way DC-to-DC convertors that can increase the voltage as much as 2X and decrease it by up to half in the other direction. This would (possibly?) let you use a 48V supercapacitor with a 96V battery and motor. People with a lot more knowledge than I can jump in any time!

That first statement is very misleading and can be taken as regen can give you back 50% to your pack when technically it can give you far more but a realistic figure for even experienced drivers with aggressive regen is 25%.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

I'm only reporting what is written here: http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/automotive/carnegie_mellon_customizing_electric_cars_cost_143 837.html
And that is based on their data. The video says they got ~40% regenerative braking with the "dumb" circuit.

If you have not already watched the video, I encourage you to, and hear and see for yourself. Also, I have now joined the ChargeCar (http://chargecar.org/) listserve. The professor is on that group -- so please ask your questions!

[Matthijs]

Hi,

I'm only reporting what is written here: http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/automotive/carnegie_mellon_customizing_electric_cars_cost_143 837.html
And that is based on their data. The video says they got ~40% regenerative braking with the "dumb" circuit.

If you have not already watched the video, I encourage you to, and hear and see for yourself. Also, I have now joined the ChargeCar (http://chargecar.org/) listserve. The professor is on that group -- so please ask your questions!

I made a thread on that some time ago. If anyone wants to discus it further please do so here: http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=3475

[KarenRei]

After they had optimized the size of the supercapacitor (it was ~50Wh or only 1/500th the size of the battery, and it cost ~$1,000 IIRC)

So they had a 50Wh supercapacitor and a 25kWh battery pack. If the battery pack was li-ion/cobalt, it'd probably take up about 50L. If it was phosphate, it'd take up about 85L. The supercapacitor will take up about 7L. So by using its space for batteries instead of a supercapacitor, you'd have ~14% more capacity in the former case and ~8% more capacity in the latter.

This unloaded the battery 56% of the time (as compared to having no supercap) and the temperature was kept as much as 53% lower; thereby avoiding much of the “Peukert effect (http://www.hybridinterfaces.ca/otherbats.html), if the batteries are prone to this.

Li-ions are not, at least nothing like PbA.

Also, I'm not understanding all of these %s you're throwing out there, because they're not compared to non-supercap numbers. Regen *without* supercapacitors varies dramatically in terms of efficiency. A small-pack NiMH hybrid will often only regen 25-30% of it's power. But Tesla claims the Roadster can regenerate nearly 70% of its power (2x motor losses and 2x battery losses), and their numbers look sound. Due to the dramatically larger pack, they're recharging at a far lower rate per cell. Li-ion cells are also a lot more efficient than NiMH.

Professor Nourbakhsh doesn't go into “highway” driving (much?) in this lecture

If the whole point is to even out loads, then it's not particularly meaningful for highway driving, where loads are much steadier, and the increases/decreases longer term (meaning a much bigger buffer). And highway driving is where range matters most.

Professor Nourbakhsh does go into some details on the choices they made for their test vehicle: the main one was they chose a low voltage – 48V, so the cost of the supercapacitor was kept reasonable.

Then that makes it an unrealistic test case, unless you're talking about cheapo lead-acid EVs. Supercapacitors make more sense added to low-end lead-acid EVs (Peukert's, lower battery energy density, etc), but not much in today's world of long-range li-ion EVs (which also tend to operate at hundreds of volts).

Now, if you're talking digital quantum batteries (which are basically a type of extreme supercapacitor).... ;) Too bad none have yet even been built in the lab. But they should work! ;)

[roflwaffle]

It makes sense, they look good if they replace them, they get data, first to market, etc. The first EV may not be a money maker but that it takes an investment. Just like the Prius.Zactly! EVs are a great investment in next gen transportation in general. Look at what happened (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124640553503576637.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) w/ Toyota compared to everyone else. If manufacturers wait around while someone advances in the field they may have to license tech mostly from one manufacturer (Like Ford/Nissan have w/ hybrid tech) or go w/ less effective implementations (Like Honda and probably GM are doing/going to do).

[Schrodinger]

Then that makes it an unrealistic test case, unless you're talking about cheapo lead-acid EVs.

I suspect that is the idea. The lecture mentioned three groups that the ChargeCar team would work with outside the lab.

Commuters: to gather sufficient data on driving habits.
"Hackers": To optimize the control algorithm (his title, not mine)
Mechanics: Teach them how to convert existing cars to EVs

If you are trying to make the conversion from Gas to Electric approachable to local mechanics and attractive to potential clients, "cheapo led-acid" sounds like a viable method.

[evmavin]

I suspect that is the idea. The lecture mentioned three groups that the ChargeCar team would work with outside the lab.

Commuters: to gather sufficient data on driving habits.
"Hackers": To optimize the control algorithm (his title, not mine)
Mechanics: Teach them how to convert existing cars to EVs

If you are trying to make the conversion from Gas to Electric approachable to local mechanics and attractive to potential clients, "cheapo led-acid" sounds like a viable method.


Converting cars to lead acid is a losing proposition for the most part, the range is extremely low unless it's a very low weight kit car with flooded lead and even advanced conversions are not practical as most vehicles have a prohibitive starting weight. Conversions take considerable time and are a high liability business.

[KarenRei]

I agree, but still, people do it, and I actually can see a compelling case for supercapacitors if you're going to make a PbA EV. At 40Wh/l, the supercapacitor would be way smaller than the battery pack, and Peukerts really does play a big role in lead-acid (ask anyone with a lead-acid NmG how much heavy acceleration affects their range ;) )

It's probably both cost-justified and range justified in a PbA EV. Just not so much in a li-ion EV.

[PatQ562]

For What it's Worth:

As with many of our once-focused threads, discussion drifts off into the every interesting world of possibilities.

I recognize the fun and value of discussing leading-edge alternatives, but if we want to actually make good decisions regarding them, we do need to evaluate them against basic physical principles using whatever facts we know, set aside the "non-starters" and narrow down the possibilities. For example, we can (and have) dismissed the idea that we can hook a generator to one wheel to recharge the battery and extend our range. We don't have to talk about efficiencies, or which wheel is optimum, or any of that, because we know, using basic physics, that the drag induced by a generator exceeds the power delivered. We would have loaded the vehicle with useless hardware that only wastes power. This idea is therefore a "non-starter" based on first principles.

Other proposals are not physically impossible, but may involve catastrophic risk that I would never want in my vehicle. Systems that store pure potential energy in any form, such as highly compressed air, tightly wound springs, flywheels, supercapacitors such as EEstor, or apparently, the "digital quantum battery" are all, literally, bombs waiting to go off in case of any serious accident. Once the energy stored is large enough to interest us, there's enough to melt down the material if discharged, and thus you have the conditions for a catastrophic chain reaction breakdown and explosive release of ALL the energy. If EEstor succeeds in their claim of outperforming lithium batteries, a 30kWhr pack would explode with the force of dozens of pounds of TNT once a flaw began to propagate. This is inherent in the concept of pure energy storage. "Detuning" or partitioning the structure to contain such breakdowns defeats the very goal of high energy density.

Therefore, I argue there's NO USE in hoping that any of the above schemes becomes practical, because the better they get, the greater the danger, and if their stored energy can be discharged without vaporizing their material, they're too weak to meet our goals.

It is true that a tank of gasoline has far more energy than the above alternatives, but it can't be released explosively without meeting specific conditions. In ordinary use or accidents, only the surface exposed to air can burn, and only if a spark is provided. Therefore, there is every likelihood that the energy will be released gradually - perhaps a roaring fire, but not a car bomb, and in most cases, the reactants are dispersed or contained safely with little hazard.

Similarly, chemical batteries hold significant energy, but the reaction mechanism depends on maintaining the structure and completing an external circuit. A serious breakdown most likely disrupts the careful structure required to release the energy, thus avoiding a meltdown, and there is probably a practical limit to the rate of combination that prevents explosive release.

Therefore, a lesson we can extract that applies broadly, is to favor schemes where the "active material" is relatively inert until "metered into" some kind of device that releases the energy as required. Such schemes are relatively safe because derangement simply stops the process with very little stored energy to dissipate. A gasoline motor meets this test, hence explaining its vast utilization. Battery storage tends towards the other extreme, where all the material is committed to the process and (hopefully) reacted slowly and safely. The inherent possibility of runaway hangs over such schemes, hence for example, the concerns about fission reactors as we currently know them. The hazards can be diminished by using schemes where derangement at least typically leads to the reaction being stopped rather than accelerated.

Using my own thinking, this supports the fuel cell concept, as being the electrical analog to the gas tank and motor. I agree however that hydrogen is not a simple and efficient "active material". I think that wisely chosen and well-debugged batteries have reached the point of real value, and fit into a power train that can be simple, reliable, and reasonably cheap, and therefore, I am comfortable with this as a concept, especially knowing that we are building volume on the powertrain, which I hope ultimately receives a better power source. I've read about some interesting work on "externally fueled" batteries using electrolytes and anodes that could be replaced at a "gas station", but their energy densities are still too low. The only way such a scheme makes sense is if they can invent something with MORE energy than lithium, hence too dangerous to carry around in "pre-combined" form.

As noted previously, by many many experimenters, lead-acid and even NiMH just don't make it in all but the most limited cases.

The relatively low performance supercapacitors that we currently have do not store dangerous amounts of power, which is the very reason for questioning their value. I support the finding that they might add value to a lead-acid battery system, but less so for lithium. I would note however, that cost as well as weight factors into the decision. If spending 1% more on capacitors extended my battery performance by 10%, I'd find the space. But I don't have any idea if this cost is realistic, and if it goes the other way, then it's a non-starter.

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Since I've joined the ChargeCar Google Group, I'll be posting questions about the Scion xB test vehicle. I know that the professor's RAV4 EV was the early test vehicle, so that uses NiMH batteries, right?

[KarenRei]

[quote[Other proposals are not physically impossible, but may involve catastrophic risk that I would never want in my vehicle. Systems that store pure potential energy in any form, such as highly compressed air, tightly wound springs, flywheels, supercapacitors such as EEstor, or apparently, the "digital quantum battery" are all, literally, bombs waiting to go off in case of any serious accident.[/quote]

While I agree with the sentiment -- any technology which has a natural tendency to explosively release all of its energy at once should preferably be avoided -- I have to disagree that this applies to any form of supercapacitor. Conventional capacitors and supercapacitors -- both realized (such as Maxwell) and theoretical (such as EEstor) have very passive failure modes. The energy is not released kinetically, but thermally, and there's nothing that inherently means it will be released all at once. You could have dielectric brakedown at one point between the plates and not elsewhere, for example. The biggest risk for a supercapacitor is the same as for lead-acid: electrolysis of the electrolyte leading to hydrogen gas buildup.

Digital quantum batteries are a bit different, in that the failure mode isn't dielectric breakdown, but structural rupture, *followed* by dielectric breakdown. But all forces on it would tend toward implosion, not explosion. There's nothing in tension that would have any inclination to, say, launch shrapnel away from the battery. So once again, it's a case of the energy all going to heat. And as usual, the heat would be evenly distributed.

A 30kWh pack has about 100 MJ of energy -- less than the heat of burning a gallon of gasoline.

[PatQ562]

Thank you Karen for a considered reply. However, you are missing the exact point: the energy stored in a capacitor is indeed released thermally if there is a breakdown, and when you reach "interesting" energy densities, said thermal energy is enough to melt or vaporize the material supporting it, thus leading to failure of adjacent material, and thus propagating a classic chain reaction breakdown thruout the entire capacitor. Since the stored charge is only held apart as long as the structure remains exactly intact, disruption can be guaranteed to allow the charge to recombine - there's no place else it would want to go.

Taking your energy numbers as plausible, let's do some math. A 30kWhr pack has 100MJ of energy. Suppose that pack weighs 300 lbs, hence 100wHR per pound, only somewhat better than lithium. We have 0.33MJ per pound, (330kJ). Assuming this is released within the structure, either by shorting the terminals or by some internal flaw, we now need to know the specific heat of the material to know what the temperature rise will be. 330,000 joules is 315 btu, which raises the temperature of a pound of water by 315F. Water has a high specific heat - many other materials hold much less heat. Aluminum has a specific heat of about 0.2, so it would increase by about 1500 degrees F. So the point is, as we increase energy density much past that of a lithium battery it does become possible for the internal energy storage to cause meltdown, if not vaporization, which is guaranteed to release any plausible form of pure potential energy such as stored charge, momentum, or tension. Since the energy stored in dielectrics is distributed evenly throughout the material, we need only invoke the slightest flaw to have the discharge melt its little bit of material, thus breaking down the adjacent material and so forth. Even if tiny flaws are somehow damped, a serious accident that crushes a larger amount is most likely to initiate a breakdown.

The same general argument applies against ultra-high-speed flywheels. I don't think it's possible to compress a gas sufficiently to store interesting energies (the French compressed air car has been debunked, I believe), but in this case, there's a "safe place" for the pressure to leak away if a defective tank doesn't actually explode.

As a reality check, we have all heard that a mere gallon of gas holds about as much energy as a good battery pack. Suppose we prepare that gallon of gas to behave as an explosive, either by mixing in an oxidizer (fuel bomb) or creating fuel-air vapor. You would agree that significant damage would be done by the resulting detonation. This doesn't happen normally because liquid gasoline burns gradually.

Therefore, I would want to see that systems storing pure potential energy have some intrinsic property that prevents the energy from releasing too quickly. Otherwise, it would be like driving around with nitroglycerin in the tank instead of gasoline.

Pat Q

[KarenRei]

I'm not very at home in English units (I even prefer getting my daily weather in Celsius), so mind if I re-do it in metric?

Given your pack weight of ~135kg, and an energy of ~100MJ (~30kWh), that's ~740kJ/kg. The heaviest part of a digital quantum battery is glass, followed by tungsten, followed by carbon. All in all, probably about 1kJ/kg*Degree-Kelvin. So about 740 degrees kelvin temperature rise, so up to ~770C or so.

Yeah, that's fairly close to what you got. :)

So that's for ~222Wh/kg. Glass boils at ~2230C. Tungsten, at ~5500C. Carbon, at ~4800C. Carbon will burn, of course, but that's limited by how fast it can be exposed to oxygen, just like, say, gasoline.

Looks like boiling the glass would be the first thing to get you the potential for gas pressure, but that wouldn't happen until 660Wh/kg. After then, if you wanted to avoid that risk, you could switch to an alternative structural material with a higher boiling point (the key constraints are that it needs to be an insulator and have a high compressive strength)

So yes, at extreme energy densities it might become an issue, but that doesn't look like something we need to worry about for a while. And just because something "might" be an issue doesn't automatically mean that it will. The design might, for example, prove incapable of cascading failures (like, say, closed cell foam).

It's a very good thing to consider, mind you, and I'm glad you brought it up. I like doing math. God, what's wrong with me?

[NeilBlanchard]

Okay, I got an answer back about the ChargeCar Scion xB test car: they are in fact using lead acid at the moment.

We are running a small 48v pack of four Optima D31M batteries.
The Supercapacitor is a 52 Whr 48v Maxwell BMOD0165.
There are four motors, two driving each front wheel through a 4:1
reduction gearbelt. These are Mars ME0709s.
As we've fairly rapidly put this testbed vehicle together out of
as many off-the-shelf components as possible, we are just now getting to the
level of control that something like the split-pi offers.

While we have modeled quite extensively vehicles with a compound energy
store (moderate-rate batteries and supercapacitor), we have in parallel
developed the Scion xB as our first testbed for real-world experiments.
We have only made short runs (5 miles or less) with one battery in the
pack performing very poorly. This was replaced just before Christmas, and
we have started testing on the improved pack, and have just begun
testing with the supercapacitor.

So, it is very early yet, and I already asked about if they plan on using a larger lead acid pack -- and about using the new lower cost lithium batteries (like the ones used in the Enginer kits), which would seem to benefit from reduced thermal stress and which provide a lot more capacity at a much lower weight. The Optima D31M batteries weigh almost 60 pounds each, so ~240 pounds for the very small pack vs about 108 pounds for a 4kWh pack of the Chinese lithium pack.
http://www.tercelreference.com/downloads/prius042.JPG
If the Split-Pi 2-way DC-to-DC converter could be used, then the 48V Maxwell supercap could be used with a 216 pound 96V 8kWh lithium pack, and the motor and cabling weight could be reduced, as well.

[Rat]

And this all has to do with the "Nissan Leaf as Alternative" how exactly?

[rumplestiltskin]

Steve Jobs said it best: Real artists ship.

[evmavin]

I just hope there are enough Leafs to go around and that they don't play the $5K over sticker game. Or worse yet, dealers add on tons of junk like 20" wheels to make a buck. Protection package, $100 locking wheel bolts, $500 charge cord bag, etc, etc. And that famous line, we only have the ones with the accessories already loadedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Z. Early adopters, be prepared to be gouged:)

[Rat]

I just hope there are enough Leafs to go around and that they don't play the $5K over sticker game. Or worse yet, dealers add on tons of junk like 20" wheels to make a buck. Protection package, $100 locking wheel bolts, $500 charge cord bag, etc, etc. And that famous line, we only have the ones with the accessories already loadedhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Z. Early adopters, be prepared to be gouged:)
That's my concern as well. Of course, that's also my concern with the 2e, so I doubt that aspect will have much effect on my decision between the two (assuming I have a choice). I suspect that Nissan has more of a long-term view and doesn't want their entry into the EV market to start out with a reputation for being way overpriced - with out-the-door prices in the $50K range. So IMHO they are at least as likely to force dealers to keep prices near sticker as Aptera.

[evmavin]

That's my concern as well. Of course, that's also my concern with the 2e, so I doubt that aspect will have much effect on my decision between the two (assuming I have a choice). I suspect that Nissan has more of a long-term view and doesn't want their entry into the EV market to start out with a reputation for being way overpriced - with out-the-door prices in the $50K range. So IMHO they are at least as likely to force dealers to keep prices near sticker as Aptera.


Sure, dealers can sell and advertise as such but could just add on lot's of high margin accessories. For years some MINI dealers never had a car on the lot without an extra $3-5k of junk, they piled them up in the back lot and loaded them up and then put a few on the floor. You could order one at MSRP and wait 6-9 months or..... buy one with lots of extras. I hope you are right but I think what's advertised and what is available may be different, you know the "one available at xxx price" drill:) Plus, dealers are hurting.

[speculawyer]

I worry that gas prices will be $2.something/gallon when these cars ship and they can't sell more than a 1000 or so such that the public sours on these cars.

These EVs just won't succeed unless gas prices go up and/or battery prices come down.

[NmGfan]

Around here (SF Bay Area) gas has crept up to slightly over $3/gal for 87 octane and the barrel price is now over $80 per. I can't imagine gas ever getting back down to $2/gal around here.

With gas at $3/gal and electricity at $0.078/kWh my 272 mile per month commute costs are either ~$33/mo for gasoline or ~$3/mo for electricity.

With gas at $2/gal and electricity at $0.089/kWh the same commute costs are either ~$21/mo for gasoline or ~$3.50/mo for electricity.

So right now I'm enjoying the thought of driving electric for over 10 months on the same money my 25mpg car would burn in a month.

If gas prices were to drop a dollar/gal and electricity was at the premium price here, I could only drive electric for about six months for one months gasoline cost. Still, not bad.

:happy0025:

[evmavin]

Around here (SF Bay Area) gas has crept up to slightly over $3/gal for 87 octane and the barrel price is now over $80 per. I can't imagine gas ever getting back down to $2/gal around here.

With gas at $3/gal and electricity at $0.078/kWh my 272 mile per month commute costs are either ~$33/mo for gasoline or ~$3/mo for electricity.

With gas at $2/gal and electricity at $0.089/kWh the same commute costs are either ~$21/mo for gasoline or ~$3.50/mo for electricity.

So right now I'm enjoying the thought of driving electric for over 10 months on the same money my 25mpg car would burn in a month.

If gas prices were to drop a dollar/gal and electricity was at the premium price here, I could only drive electric for about six months for one months gasoline cost. Still, not bad.

:happy0025:

Do you have outlets in your home:)? Most home owners I know in the bay area pay $.32/kwh or more. Perhaps on a CARE program or solar, realistically a 2K sq foot home will be paying at least triple that number of .07 unless they are churning butter by hand. One big problem with EV comparisons is the unrealistic calculations based on fantasy electric rates. $.32/kwh with a 32kwh @ 80% DOD for a 100 mile range on say a MINI EV is $8.00 to fill up.

[base428]

Here in West Virginia, electricity is around $0.089/kWh and we just had a recent rate increase from $0.079/kWh.

What's really sad is that we've all been discussing the Nissan Leaf far more than the Aptera....

[evmavin]

Here in West Virginia, electricity is around $0.089/kWh and we just had a recent rate increase from $0.079/kWh.

What's really sad is that we've all been discussing the Nissan Leaf far more than the Aptera....


I was paying $.32 before solar and now nothing. I just looked at PGE posted rates for this month and even if you are on the "low income" special pricing that has about a 25% discount, tier one rates for residential on that plan are $.08 kwh not to mention tier one is near impossible to stay in. Most start at $.11 for tier one and go up. When gas is $3.50 in LA it's about $4.00 plus in the Bay Area.

[KarenRei]

Do you have outlets in your home:)? Most home owners I know in the bay area pay $.32/kwh or more. Perhaps on a CARE program or solar, realistically a 2K sq foot home will be paying at least triple that number of .07 unless they are churning butter by hand. One big problem with EV comparisons is the unrealistic calculations based on fantasy electric rates. $.32/kwh with a 32kwh @ 80% DOD for a 100 mile range on say a MINI EV is $8.00 to fill up.

What's "unrealistic" is what you all have to pay out in California. You're getting taken for a ride.

[NmGfan]

Do you have outlets in your home:)? Most home owners I know in the bay area pay $.32/kwh or more. Perhaps on a CARE program or solar, realistically a 2K sq foot home will be paying at least triple that number of .07 unless they are churning butter by hand. One big problem with EV comparisons is the unrealistic calculations based on fantasy electric rates. $.32/kwh with a 32kwh @ 80% DOD for a 100 mile range on say a MINI EV is $8.00 to fill up.

I know its hard to believe, but the City of Santa Clara is one of about a dozen cities in California that provide electricity through a municipal utility (Silicon Valley Power). Palo Alto and Alameda are two other cities in the Bay Area that have city owned electric utilities that have similarly low rates to Santa Clara.

Our house is about 1400 sqft, built in 1981, has A/C, not super-insulated or anything, although all our lighting is CF these days. Our average daily burn rate for electricity is 16kWh/day (including nightly recharging the NmG). We get about 300kWh at the base rate of $0.07753 and anything over 300kWh at $0.08913 from SVP, so this is not a fantasy. Our monthly electricity bill runs about $46.
Here's the SVP residential rate sheet:
http://www.siliconvalleypower.com/pdf/2009_Rates_D1TOU.pdf

I just got a notice from SVP this week that they will cover 65%(!!) of the cost of a PV system. I can't remember the maximum allowable size, but I might finally take that plunge next.

:happy0025:

[Matthijs]

Really amazing, in Holland the tax on electricity is higher than your overall rate. I pay about $0.36 cents per kWh. I use about 2500 kWh per year. No subsidies on solar power here. Only a pity-full feed-in tariff that will let you break even in 10 years +.

[evmavin]

If they pay for 65% I would be all over that, do you get the Fed deduction as well? And almost free power to boot.

[evmavin]

I have always suspected the Leaf pack to be too small and that Nissan intends to "trash" it and replace them as a means to get things moving fast for gen1 learnings and first to market. It's not a bad strategy if you replace them under warranty and use the learnings for future improvements. Here is some new speculation:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/25/is-the-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-under-engineered/#comments

[JustWilliam]

I have always suspected the Leaf pack to be too small and that Nissan intends to "trash" it and replace them as a means to get things moving fast for gen1 learnings and first to market. It's not a bad strategy if you replace them under warranty and use the learnings for future improvements. Here is some new speculation:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/25/is-the-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-under-engineered/#comments

I thought of you when I read that article EVmavin! Very prescient of you. :thumbsup:

Good chance for me to revisit the thread I started as well. This undersized, lease-only pack is one of many reasons I personally find the Leaf unappealing.
The platform is not particularly light (even for it's size) and nothing about it's composition or NON EV components is anything to set an engineer's or enthusiast's heart a-flutter. And I find it almost willfully ugly, even first hand and "in the metal".

This does NOT mean that Nissan is foolish. The conventional, four door hatchback configuration is great for a wide variety of consumers. The average consumer looking for an inexpensive BEV will be well served. Nissan has created a vehicle for BEV fans who consider vehicles as appliances to get from point A to point B. It will NOT incite passion amongst many of the people who aspire to Aptera ownership. It isn't a weather proof cycle alternative. It isn't a sports car alternative. It won't appeal to anyone into cutting-edge design or engineering, nor to any minimalists. Followers of Colin Chapman are NOT part of the Leaf demographic.

As a resident of Portland, I understand why Nissan is using our area as one of it's launch sites. This is a "green" haven any way you slice it, and the majority (including me) wouldn't have it any other way. We have incredibly high property and income taxes, yet we reliably support transportation alternatives from simple bicycling to light rail with our votes and our wallets. The Toyota Prius is as common here as full-size trucks are elsewhere. Even the truly wretched Zap Xebra sold well here for a time. So I truly understand and appreciate the Leaf's appeal. I am truly humbled that my personal DISMISSAL of the Leaf as an Aptera alternative spawned one of the largest PRO Leaf discussions in cyberspace. But I maintain the intellectual premise that it is NOT a true Aptera competitor. And I am fairly disappointed that very few posts even ACKNOWLEDGED the entire premise of the post, which was to compare a fairly conventional four door family car platform to Apteras ultra light, reverse trike, two seater, big cargo design APART FROM BEV PROPULSION. Disappointed that I was actually vindicated in my belief that a massive number of BEV intender's will abandon Aptera for a more conventional vehicle as long as it is pure BEV, inexpensive, and available ASAP. Couple that with Aptera's management deficiencies, constant delays, and lack of private investment and things look mighty bleak for the company and it's future.

All that said, I personally wouldn't purchase a Leaf if it was powered by rain and good intentions. NOTHING about it speaks to me of aspirational status. NOTHING. By all means the forum should continue the "Leaf Love" as they feel it appropriate to their individual needs and desires. But the thread was ABSOLUTELY NOT started to extol the desirability of the Leaf over ANY green vehicle, let alone the truly revolutionary Aptera.

[prberg]

While I agree that the Leaf is not as forward thinking or aspirational as the Aptera is proposed to be, I would be excited to buy one.

We need to get away from gasoline powered cars. Sure the 1st generation EV's (well they aren't really 1st generation (EV1)) won't be as efficient or powerful as later models, it is a step in the right direction. We have to push technology forward and also show other consumers that these cars can be viable options and a real choice for them. People were very skeptical of the Prius and hybrids, but luckily early adopters made the leap and now they are becoming much more accecpted.

All this being said.. if the Nissan technology proves to be faulty and the cars stop working after a few years that helps no one (including Nissan). I'm hoping they have a good warrany on the battery (at least 5 years).

I would love to buy a Aptera 2-e but it's seeming less likely as the bad news comes out of San Diego. I really thought they would have started to sell the cars by now. If I had my way I would choose the 2-e first, the Leaf second, and the Volt third. But as they say... a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. I want to move from a gasoline vehicle and into an EV as soon as they are available.

-Peter

[DSC OFF]

I just came up with 1.4 billion reasons why the Nissan Leaf is a better option than the Aptera.

Being the first available EV would have been the one thing that would have given Aptera an advantage but they really missed the boat on that one. Too bad. It is disappointing that our government couldn't have the insight to give a innovative start up like Aptera the money long ago instead of Nissan today, but I'm sure it looks like a safer bet to them.

[jhm614]

I'm concerned about the Leaf's Houston Tour Stop. It's next week and they still don't have any details on the website! Argh.

Also, is it wrong to drive from Dallas to Houston in my gas powered car to see an Electric prototype?

[JustWilliam]

I just came up with 1.4 billion reasons why the Nissan Leaf is a better option than the Aptera.

Being the first available EV would have been the one thing that would have given Aptera an advantage but they really missed the boat on that one. Too bad. It is disappointing that our government couldn't have the insight to give a innovative start up like Aptera the money long ago instead of Nissan today, but I'm sure it looks like a safer bet to them.
It look likes a safer bet for MANY I suppose.

It never ceases to amaze me that we have a bloom of new members who are critical of Karen in specific and this "unofficial" forum in general for having reasonable questions about the current management's performance in their former positions AND with Aptera. This micro wave of members regard this as hateful and negative. We are eloquently asked to "suck it".

Whoever they are, they are pro management and absolutely NOT pro vehicle. If they were, they would be spending more of their time in threads like this one. They could and WOULD convince some potential defectors that Aptera is WORTH waiting for. Not because it's first, not because it's the least expensive, and certainly not as a direct replacement for ANY mass produced vehicle they currently own. They would remind the potential demographic that the Aptera is going to offer it's drivers the most dynamic and efficient way to do what they do most of the time. Or even some of the time, because an Aptera should make even MORE sense as a second or third vehicle in a multi car household. The focus should be on the VEHICLE and its revolution of common sense. Our moderators and members do the best job they possibly can, as often as they can, to keep that a focus.

Aptera has overspent it's capital not just in the financial sense, but in the arenas of politics, media and time itself. By almost any measure, this has become a wonderful Leaf thread, and I respectfully suggest that it be moved to the "competitors" category where it is more properly represented and respected.

Nissan would appear to have a winner in it's hand! The Leaf has spoken to an amazing number of people by NOT being an Aptera competitor, and deserves to stand on its own, yes?

[RainCaster]

Yeah... what he said.

William,
I agree with you completely- the comments about Mark Troll et al as well as the comments about the Leaf. No wonder the US govt loaned Nissan so much of my money- they rightfully deserve it.

[speculawyer]

Really amazing, in Holland the tax on electricity is higher than your overall rate. I pay about $0.36 cents per kWh. I use about 2500 kWh per year. No subsidies on solar power here. Only a pity-full feed-in tariff that will let you break even in 10 years +.
You don't need a subsidy if your rate 36 cents per Kwh . . . that system will pay for itself at those rates.

With the subsidies in the USA, it will still take 10+ years to pay back so it is not like we are much better off.

[palmer_md]

Here is an article in Wired that may be a cause for some concern for the LEAF. If you are leasing the battery maybe less of a concern as it then becomes Nissans concern.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/)

[evmavin]

Here is an article in Wired that may be a cause for some concern for the LEAF. If you are leasing the battery maybe less of a concern as it then becomes Nissans concern.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/)


It is a concern if you think you will get 100 miles of normal driving, I have always contended that it will be closer to 60 but most people want to believe otherwise and unless this pack goes up to 30 kwh or more, buyers will be upset. In addition they better have a great battery warranty or people will be stuck with low-capacity packs so a lease could be good depending on the cost and the replacement terms. Cycling to 80-85% DOD is really going to kill these packs and quickly for those that charge a few times a day for extended range. It's going to be a numbers game but in the end to save their reputation Nissan will be replacing these often and the car will end up being a learning experience for Nissan and financial hit for early adopters. By limiting the pack size and space for expansion the car will be obsolete when followed by redesigned models. If I were considering a Leaf it would be a lease on the entire car since a three year old EV is going to have very little resale value and there will be vast improvements in the pack technology. The Leaf was also built too large and should have been a smaller car to start since there is plenty of demand for city cars and if this thing gets loaded up with people and gear the range will be pathetic at best.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Nissan Leaf will be shown at the Boston Science Museum, today between 9am and 3pm.

http://boston.going.com/event-718402;Nissan_Leaf_Zero_Emission_Tour

[NeilBlanchard]

Okay, I've seen the Nissan Leaf in person -- it is one of only two actual cars they've made, so far. It cost them ~$2.5 million to build it. It looks larger than I expected, and it has a typical-for-today look: thick doors and thick seats, a quite tasteful dash with large screen GPS navigation system (more later) and the dash is all electronic. The backseat looks pretty decent, and the hatch/boot looks pretty darn large and deep.

The battery is 24kWh, lithium manganese polymer (IIRC) designed and built by Nissan. There are 48 ~inch thick cells that are about the size of a piece of paper; and each of these has 4 prismatic "sub-cells". They are in a sealed enclosure, and it has a 10 year warranty -- it will have 70-80% of its capacity at that time. There is no active cooling in the battery pack.

There are three types of charging:

Level 1 is 120v AC and will take up to 16 hours to go from no charge to full charge.
Level 2 is 240v AC and will take up to 8 hours to go from no charge to full charge.
Level 3 is 440v DC and will be able to charge 0-80% in ~27 minutes.

Charging starts after you plug it in, and after the car and the charger have "talked" to each other, and everything is hunky dory. It will be nearly impossible to get shocked, even in a rain storm, as the cord is not energized until after this happens. I believe I heard someone talking about being able to program the car/charger to work during specific times, to take advantage of (possibly) lower rates.

The cost of the car will include the battery. You will be able to buy the car with the battery -- or you can lease the car with the battery. It's not "official" at this time, but they will *not* be leasing the battery separately from the car.

You will be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit for buying the car. If you have a charger installed (this may be for a Level 1/2 charger?), you can get up to an additional $2,000 tax credit, as well. Level 3 chargers are eligible for more, IIANM.

They will announce the actual pricing in April (at which point I believe they will start taking pre-orders). For the moment, they say the price will be "the same as a similarly sized and equipped [conventional] car." Remember the nav system I mentioned? This is part of the battery monitoring system, and my understanding is that it is standard equipment:

There are 4 ways to monitor the battery charge:

A "miles left" estimate display.
A percent of charge left display.
A circle of approximate range highlighted on the nav screen display
An "idiot" light that warns you when you get close to 10% (IIRC) charge left, and it soon thereafter goes into a "limp home" mode that limits your speed to 55mph, (and probably turns off things like the A/C?).

I forgot to ask about how regenerative braking works. Darn. Oh, they will start shipping at the end of this year, to the pre-orders, and then after that, they will be at the dealerships. They had a dealer conference/training happening concurrent with this public "tour". Tomorrow/next they will be in New York city.

[DSC OFF]

Thanks Neil! That's exciting stuff. Would you say that two adults could sit fairly comfortably in the back? I'm assuming "same as a similarly sized ...car" includes the $7500 tax credit? I take that as $25000, what do you think? ($32,500 before the credit)

With a 10 year warranty on the battery, I guess I wouldn't even worry about buying it outright. 10 years from now, I can't even imagine a replacement battery pack costing all that much.

[aptera1213]

Sweet. Thanks Neil.

More and more good news for potential EV buyers.

2010 will be the start, 2011 will be even better, repeat and rinse.

Gavin

The Leaf if more car than I need for a daily commuter. But I will give it a look for sure.

Now if the Mazda 2 or Ford Fiesta were EV, mmmm, that would be nice.

[KarenRei]

A "miles left" estimate display.
A percent of charge left display.
A circle of approximate range highlighted on the nav screen display
An "idiot" light that warns you when you get close to 10% (IIRC) charge left, and it soon thereafter goes into a "limp home" mode that limits your speed to 55mph, (and probably turns off things like the A/C?).


Ah, the "circle" approach. Perhaps I should get in touch with Nissan...

[evmavin]

Thanks Neil! That's exciting stuff. Would you say that two adults could sit fairly comfortably in the back? I'm assuming "same as a similarly sized ...car" includes the $7500 tax credit? I take that as $25000, what do you think? ($32,500 before the credit)

With a 10 year warranty on the battery, I guess I wouldn't even worry about buying it outright. 10 years from now, I can't even imagine a replacement battery pack costing all that much.


The only problem with them sticking to a 24 kwh pack is that there is no way the range is going to be near 100 miles, even with a new pack. I would bet that 10 year warranty has quite a bit of fine print unless they expect to replace most of them. There will be a miles limitation and some other details.

[NeilBlanchard]

We do not know what the DOD it is designed for -- and they do not have any active cooling. If 0-80% charging can be done safely within 27 minutes; and the head of product planning for Nissan USA, Mark Perry said specifically, that if you use a lot of fast charging, then you will be close(r) to the 70% capacity at the end of the 10 years. Less (or no) fast charging would be likely be no worse than 80%.

As for the "circle" approach, Mark said that they do not *yet* use elevation data, but that they intend to in the future.

An interesting aside: both Mark Perry and the woman standing with him both know Paul Scott (of PlugInAmerica.org) pretty well. They are well aware of the Th!nk City, and also seem to be coyly aware of the situation at Aptera.

Oh, and the 3,400-3,500 pound curb weight seems to be the actual weight -- this was heard as part of the "chatter" around the railing...

[aptera1213]

So Neil...What do you think? Leaf vs Th!nk vs Aptera?

And who does Nissan fear most?

Gavin

ps...thanks for going and getting tons of go info.
me=jealous

[SlowSRT4]

And who does Nissan fear most?
Going with the odds, Volt first and Focus EV second.

A small company wouldn't bother Nissan. :evilgrin0013:

[NeilBlanchard]

I think the Leaf and the Volt are aimed at (slightly different parts of) the same group: those who are comfortable only with "conventional" (looking) cars, from known and large manufacturers. Both are probably very conservatively/over designed; hence their high weight. They outweigh the Prius by 700-1000 pounds (though we do not know what the plug-in Prius weighs).

The other thing that Nissan will undoubtedly mention to prospective customers who know about and mention the Th!nk, is the fact that they have been through several (three?) bankruptcies. GM might have a harder time making a point about this...

The Focus and the iMiEV are in the wings, and the Th!nk City is virtually concurrent with the Leaf. The City is probably a lot less money, we know it weighs a lot less (I think it is more than 1,000 pounds less?), but it does not have a dealership network -- do we know how Th!nk will be selling their cars?

So, the people who want more efficiency in a "pure" EV will lean towards the Th!nk City (and they may want a smaller car, and/or not need a large car) and/or they may not want/afford to pay as much as the Leaf will cost.

The Volt will get the people who want/need a larger car and/or need the 300 mile range; though the Leaf is the larger of these two, as far as I can tell.

So, there is a lot of overlap for sure, but the differences will be for practical reasons primarily, and then if people can "indulge" their preferences, that might change their choice. Some people would buy any of them, and some will discard one or several based on the qualities and practicalities they see.

I certainly wish that Aptera was in the wings... As it is, they have not really auditioned, yet.

[SlowSRT4]

Volt is a bit more powerful than the Leaf though.

Volt:
110-120 kW power
370 Nm torque
100 mph top speed

Leaf:
80 kW power
280 Nm torque
90 mph top speed

[aptera1213]

I see the Volt and the Leaf as different markets. People who want EVs want EVs. People who want gas want gas. And people who want EV hybrids want it all ;)....

The Volt competes more with a plug in Prius, or even the Telsa S (if you have 40k for a Volt, maybe go 50K for a Tesla).

I want no gas. EVAR. At least sometime in my life.

But yes, the Ford Focus EV is much more the Leaf's competition. Along with the iMIEV. Of the three, I think I like the Focus best, but need more info. If the Fiat 500 EV comes in the next year (HA, not gonna happen...but a guy can dream) and the Aptera fails, I would get that 500 in a hot second...it is dead sexy for a little car.

I do see the Th!nk as a potential for how future cars companies are run: ie, a car company and a battery company join forces. Car companies will run much differently in the future when most cars are EVs. The car companies can't make nearly as much money on service. Cars will still last a long time, so they need to convince people to "move up" or upgrade.

"Try our new battery. Goes twice as far and charges in half the time." etc
or
"Love your Th!nk City? It might be time to try out our new Th!nk Ox."

But can Aptera or Th!nk compete with Ford or those guys? Surely not in the short run (look at how long it took Toyota and Honda and Nissan and such to get where they are).

I hope both Aptera and Th!nk understand their market and their place in the start up of EVs. If either believe and plan for selling 10 or 20 thousand cars a year, they will fail.

Plan for 5 thousand a year and move up to 10 thousand if needed.

Th!nk can sell (even with Ford and Nissan having EVs to sell) 5 thousand City cars a year easily. They will fit a need. Small, friendly EVs that are perfect for the city. But can the Th!nk City sell pruis like numbers? Not likely unless they find a way to be very very cheap. And you can't make a profit at very very cheap.

Same with Aptera. If (IF!!!) they get their act together (the X prize not naming winners til september hurts...having 3 winners hurts too...people will be confused as to who really Won the Xprize), and if they set their sights on 5 thousand sales a year, well Aptera can have many years of selling 5 thousand 2e vehicles. If they plan and ramp up to sell 10 to 20 thousand cars a year, they will fill all the orders and every order from best buy in a year and then have to ramp way down.

I love the Aptera. I hope it succeeds. It needs to be made now or it has a harder road.
I really like the Th!nk City. I hope it succeeds. But it too needs to be made quickly to have a chance. Joining with a good battery company helps them (Aptera should look into doing the same). But they are also serving a somewhat niche market like Aptera. If they get out quickly and show that they have good, safe, efficient cars that run the city like they were made for each other, they have a chance. But if they are slow and the big boys come out and enter the same market (Smart EV, Honda EV or Fit EV, Ford Fiesta EV, Mazda 2 EV, Toyota IQ EV, Aveo EV etc...why the Big boys didn't hit EVs with their subcompacts surprises me...except the subcompacts are the lower financial money makers...I guess they think people wont pay mid level dollars for a sub level sized car.), well a company like Th!nk will have a hard time selling the City vs a Mazda 2ev or Fiesta EV or Fit EV if they are priced around the same.

But the future looks bright right now for EVs...Hope to see a lot of models coming out in the next couple of years.

I'll be sad if I don't have an Aptera 2e...But I'm sure I'll be happy driving some EV in the next year or so.

Gavin

[RainCaster]

The Volt competes more with a plug in Prius, or even the Telsa S (if you have 40k for a Volt, maybe go 50K for a Tesla).

The Model S is an EV, not a hybrid. No comparison to the Volt. You may be thinking of the Fiskar?

[aptera1213]

Yeah, I know. Basically it competes as a long range, 4 door, more than 2 person next generation car. In shape and function as a car (fit more people, drive long distances etc) the Volt and S are very similar. In price they are around the same range (too much for most, but if you are middle middle class or upper middle class you could afford either one).

I didn't mention the Fiskar as the price is double.

Basically if you want a none-gas car (or mostly none-gas car with the volt) and want to go long distances and want to take 4 people (or more if you cram a bit) and still want a car shape and look, you get the Volt or the Tesla S.


That said, yes most people who want pure EVs will not get the Volt...but some people who want a Volt might look at the Tesla S.

Gavin

[palmer_md]

Basically if you want a none-gas car (or mostly none-gas car with the volt) and want to go long distances and want to take 4 people (or more if you cram a bit) and still want a car shape and look, you get the Volt or the Tesla S.
Gavin

Cant cram 5 into a volt. It only has 4 bucket seats. Tesla S has seating for 5 adults and 2 children in the back.

[SlowSRT4]

The Model S is an EV, not a hybrid. No comparison to the Volt. You may be thinking of the Fiskar?
How the hell is it "no comparison" in the context he was describing?

Car buyers will look at many types of cars and see which one best meets their needs and budget. Not everybody is going to consider exactly one layout of drivetrain technology. :p

Yes, the Model S is an EV. The Volt is a series hybrid aka ER-EV. They seem quite comparable to me.

Cant cram 5 into a volt. It only has 4 bucket seats. Tesla S has seating for 5 adults and 2 children in the back.
Correct, but they did that for even weight distribution to keep the batteries low and centered, and to create a tunnel so they could keep the batteries at proper temperature with active liquid temp control. Personally I think it was the right choice to sacrifice the middle seat.

[aptera1213]

Well I think Rain was replying to this comment from me:
People who want EVs want EVs. People who want gas want gas. And people who want EV hybrids want it all ....

I was a bit lazy in my wording or thoughts...

What it should have been was: People who want EVs want EVs. People who want gas want gas. People who want EV hybrids want it all. And people who want EV hybrids will likely want an EV when the range is longer. So a Volt person would like a pure EV if range wasn't an issue.

Heck, I think everyone will want an EV when range isn't an issue (and costs). Which is why I think EVs are the future. As range increases, as infrastructure increases, as charging time decreases, why wouldn't everyone use EVs?

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

As range increases, as infrastructure increases, as charging time decreases, why wouldn't everyone use EVs?
Because they don't make loud VVVRRROOOOOMM VVRRROOOOOOOMMMMM noises.

[SlowSRT4]

EV's also seem to have their work cut out for them against these new diesels.

The Fiat 500's new MultiJet II engine seems quite impressive:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/02/10/fiat-500-gets-new-1-3-liter-multijet-diesel-engine-and-60-mpg/


The Audi TDI's aren't bad either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq58zS4_jvM

[NeilBlanchard]

Huh? EV's blow away diesels for efficiency. Range is another matter -- the best way to get that is to go with a serial hybrid, and get the best of both.

[KarenRei]

Or a range-extending trailer. :) My preferred solution.

[SlowSRT4]

Huh? EV's blow away diesels for efficiency. Range is another matter -- the best way to get that is to go with a serial hybrid, and get the best of both.
Likewise, I'm sure a Fiat 500 would blow away any EV on cost. They have their pros and cons.

[rayfellow]

Or a range-extending trailer. :) My preferred solution.

Rent it.. at uhall!

[KarenRei]

Exactly! Should be a lot cheaper than a car rental -- it's just a smart generator with wheels and an aeroshell, after all.

[randyd]

Rent it.. at uhall!

I like the way you think, Ray, to a point.

This is really a stop gap method, prior to quick charge batteries and high voltage charging stations or remote areas where it may never be cost effective to have recharge stations.

Once EVs accept a charge while in motion, and UHaul builds out the fleet, I think they will be in use for 20+ years or more. I don't really see it as a stop-gap solution.

In my lifetime I don't think there will be enough quick-charge stations for cross-country driving*. If I am not commuting, I prefer "remote areas". Yes, there are RV parks. That may be my best option, but the further you go between "fill-ups" thanks to higher capacity batteries, the longer the fill-up takes.


* Unless big oil gets behind the concept. Replacing gas stations will take a lot longer than refitting existing stations to provide electrons. One fantasy of mine is that BP or Chevron will see the benefit of being first and move aggressively to add "Joule pumps" to all their stations.

[rayfellow]

I like the way you think, Ray, to a point.



Once EVs accept a charge while in motion, and UHaul builds out the fleet, I think they will be in use for 20+ years or more. I don't really see it as a stop-gap solution.

In my lifetime I don't think there will be enough quick-charge stations for cross-country driving*. If I am not commuting, I prefer "remote areas". Yes, there are RV parks. That may be my best option, but the further you go between "fill-ups" thanks to higher capacity batteries, the longer the fill-up takes.


* Unless big oil gets behind the concept. Replacing gas stations will take a lot longer than refitting existing stations to provide electrons. One fantasy of mine is that BP or Chevron will see the benefit of being first and move aggressively to add "Joule pumps" to all their stations.

Well... we're predicting the future of EV charging stations. Economics will be the driving force (of course!) so we can assume those high traffic - long distance stretches of inter states will be be the firsts. I-5 from San Diego to Seattle - for example. Then as EV's grow (and ICE go away) more and more remote locations.

All that said - the UHall trailer concept will be necessary for remote sites. One year I took a motorcycle trip back East. On the way there I drove about 100 miles a day - plus or minus. If I had been camping in KOA's or some such and driving an EV, I would have been able to make each day on one charge. On my way back from the East coast, I drove back in 4 days... A generator trailer would have been just the ticket for such a drive.

[flasher702]

The Aptera on the other hand, is remarkable for throwing all convention to the wind in order to maximize efficiency through light weight

is it? We're talking about, what 400lbs-700lbs lighter than the 2door honda insight? We don't have specs and the low end of that really isn't very impressive. Fiberglass is heavy. The Mk-0 was 1000lbs lighter, less than half the weight, of the aluminum unibody insight. That was impressive. That was what I was excited about.

and aerodynamics

Is it? We don't have specs. They've made several not-aerodynamic changes to the car.


With an ICE, the Aptera would STILL be groundbreaking.

Not really. You could probably tune, shave, and body-kit an 80s CRX HF to match it's performance and gas mileage. *might* have to replace the engine to pull it off. Not too hard to get +70 in a 2door honda insight either.


A paragon of efficiency and a triumph of form determined by function.

The form was based off a kit airplane... and drive through windows... and driving in hypothetical slippery conditions that most of the driving population of the world never experiences, and I don't even know why they scrapped the eyes-forward system their excuses didn't make any sense.


The Leaf would simply be a family hatchback with distinctive styling.

Yeah, kind of a bummer. But at least you could actually buy one.


Can the Aptera succeed simply by virtue of it's pursuit of ultimate efficiency, or will it be lost in a sea of more mainstream electric vehicles released in the next 12 to 24 months? Share your opinion and TESTIFY!
It will be lost in the stream. It needed a headstart on the competition to establish itself as a viable car and get people used to it look, it's niche, and it's brand. With a bit of a lead and a competitive price the aptera typ1 had a chance to maintain strong sales even as it lost some sales to cars that could hold more people as they started to come on to the market. If it ever even gets released it will have neither of those things going for it. Oh, and it won't be perceived as being as safe as the competition either (and it probably won't be either, but that's irrelevant) and safety was really never that big of a factor for their target audience but they wasted a bunch of time on it anyway. Wanna see some unsafe cars? Here's a list of 71 of them with 09 and 10 model years. They sell just fine: http://www.edmunds.com/convertible/index.html Smart ForTwo sells fine too and tons of people think it's unsafe. I mean, it's a 2-seater car. It's never going to be popular with families no matter how safe you make it.

[DSC OFF]

These are the type of stories that make me believe that someone has finally got a real game changer in the works.

http://wot.motortrend.com/6622904/green/hertz-to-rent-nissan-leaf-electric-vehicle-in-2011/index.html

[Matthijs]

www.electric-mobility.com

Has someone already seen this website? It's a mini site initiative from Nissan.

[speculawyer]

Heck, I think everyone will want an EV when range isn't an issue (and costs). Which is why I think EVs are the future. As range increases, as infrastructure increases, as charging time decreases, why wouldn't everyone use EVs?
Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, Up-front purchase cost, etc.

It is all about the cost.

(range can be fixed by cheaper batteries but that can't fix charge time. Battery swap fixes both range and charge time . . . that is why I really like battery swap in concept. I'm just scared that it can't be done since it really requires a top-down forcing of a new system to be adopted. I really hope better place can pull it off. Israel is the real test case . . . I can't think of a better place. Very small country, they really don't drive into their neighboring countries much (since their neighbors hate them), and they REALLY want to get off oil (since the people who have the oil fund their enemies).

[Rat]

Israel is the real test case . . . I can't think of a better place. Very small country, they really don't drive into their neighboring countries much (since their neighbors hate them), and they REALLY want to get off oil (since the people who have the oil fund their enemies).
I hadn't really thought about this, but this is a very perceptive observation, like so many of speculawyer's posts.

[Matthijs]

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/17/report-nissan-leaf-priced-at-u-s-38-500-in-japan/

[NeilBlanchard]

Nissan Leaf priced at U.S. $38,500+ in Japan:scared0016:

That's a bit too rich for my blood! We'll see what the actual US pricing is in a few weeks...

[evmavin]

:scared0016:

That's a bit too rich for my blood! We'll see what the actual US pricing is in a few weeks...


Good thing I won't be buying one there and the US price is never anything like Japan or Europe. Comparing prices in other countries is not a good gauge.

[SlowSRT4]

:scared0016:

That's a bit too rich for my blood! We'll see what the actual US pricing is in a few weeks...
Japanese prices are always higher. They said it would be priced the same as an equivalent segment gas-only car. I can only assume they weren't just blowing smoke.

[evmavin]

Japanese prices are always higher. They said it would be priced the same as an equivalent segment gas-only car. I can only assume they weren't just blowing smoke.


If the price is very reasonable and I can get it in 2010 to capture the tax rebate and the CA rebate is still available I'm going to get it even if I sell it an a year or two. Could end up being in the low 20's after all that.

[SlowSRT4]

If the price is very reasonable and I can get it in 2010 to capture the tax rebate and the CA rebate is still available I'm going to get it even if I sell it an a year or two. Could end up being in the low 20's after all that.
Even though they said only "select markets" for 2010 of course you can just assume CA is one of those. Then you even have nice rebate programs like you mentioned on top of that. Darn you californians! :tongue0002:

[evmavin]

Even though they said only "select markets" for 2010 of course you can just assume CA is one of those. Then you even have nice rebate programs like you mentioned on top of that. Darn you californians! :tongue0002:


Don't count on it, my guess is the rebate money will be gone by the end of the year and what is not will get sucked up by the early Leaf buyers. I'm sure those Tesla owners really need the extra $5K. They sucked up most of it last round.

[Spies]

:scared0016:

That's a bit too rich for my blood! We'll see what the actual US pricing is in a few weeks...

The price of somewhere between 3.5 million and 4 million yen mentioned in the article is speculative after all. I will reserve judgement as well.

I just hope some of the CVRP money will be left when the Leaf is available.

[evmavin]

The price of somewhere between 3.5 million and 4 million yen mentioned in the article is speculative after all. I will reserve judgement as well.

I just hope some of the CVRP money will be left when the Leaf is available.


Me too but I don't think so based on what I know of the previous activity.

[Matthijs]

Good thing I won't be buying one there and the US price is never anything like Japan or Europe. Comparing prices in other countries is not a good gauge.

I wonder how that will be for EV's though. For me the car is exempt from Road Tax and Purchase tax. So I can just import one from the US. Still have to pay hefty prizes for registration and Shipping but if you look at the Euro prizes for the IMiev and the Think it could be well worth it!

[Matthijs]

If the price is very reasonable and I can get it in 2010 to capture the tax rebate and the CA rebate is still available I'm going to get it even if I sell it an a year or two. Could end up being in the low 20's after all that.
Retain ownership of the vehicle for a minimum of 36 consecutive months immediately after the vehicle purchase or lease date. Rebate recipients who do not retain the eligible vehicle for the full 36-month ownership or lease period will be required to reimburse ARB (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29) all or part of the original rebate amount.
If you sell it after 2 years you may need to pay back part of the incentive.

[danieloneil01]

I think the Leaf will be a great alternative to the all electric Aptera that was never built. Sure it's not 100% electric but good luck selling the Aptera to the rest of the country that doesn't live in San Diego.

[evmavin]

If you sell it after 2 years you may need to pay back part of the incentive.


Good luck tracking that via the DMV

[evmavin]

I think the Leaf will be a great alternative to the all electric Aptera that was never built. Sure it's not 100% electric but good luck selling the Aptera to the rest of the country that doesn't live in San Diego.


what is not 100% electric.

[SlowSRT4]

what is not 100% electric.
I think he's confusing the Leaf with the Volt. :apterarear:

[evchels]

Embargo just lifted on Nissan Leaf pricing: $32,780 MSRP. $25,280 w fed tax credit, and $20,280 in CA ($5k incentive here through CARB).

Should make things interesting for all...

[evmavin]

Embargo just lifted on Nissan Leaf pricing: $32,780 MSRP. $25,280 w fed tax credit, and $20,280 in CA ($5k incentive here through CARB).

Should make things interesting for all...


Is that the base model or fully loaded? Also, I'm not sure the $5k will be here at the time the car can be purchased. Thoughts?

[DSC OFF]

Holy cow! I just can't wait until details really start to flow in on this.

If you assume $3 a gallon average fuel cost, and you can buy the Leaf at $20K in California, you could basically pay the entire cost of the vehicle after 220,000 miles in comparison to a car that averages 30 mpg. I realize gas is a little cheaper than that, and 220,000 miles is a lot but still, what a deal. Who wouldn't want a free car?

[SlowSRT4]

Here's the article:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/30/2011-nissan-leaf-us-pricing-officially-announced-as-low-as-25/

That is the base price. It is definitely higher than what I would have thought based on their "same price as equivalent gas car" comment. Not really that impressive for being rushed and under-engineered compared to competitors.

Will be interesting to see the warranty terms on this.

[aptera1213]

Wow...getting a LEAF in California for 20K (ok, 25K with taxes and such) is amazing.

Really puts the heat on Mits and Ford to step up.

And this will really hurt the start ups (Coda, Th!nk...and Myers and others. Aptera too, though less as Aptera sells some on looks and uniqueness...but this will hurt all start ups...but really help Nissan).

It's going to be hard to sell an EV for 35k or more with the LEAF hitting that price point....unless you go upscale like the Tesla S.

Gavin

Still a great day for EVs....this is important. Next important EV date is when they actually start selling them.

[SlowSRT4]

Holy cow! I just can't wait until details really start to flow in on this.

If you assume $3 a gallon average fuel cost, and you can buy the Leaf at $20K in California, you could basically pay the entire cost of the vehicle after 220,000 miles in comparison to a car that averages 30 mpg. I realize gas is a little cheaper than that, and 220,000 miles is a lot but still, what a deal. Who wouldn't want a free car?
Hard to calculate without mpg figures for the Leaf. But I'm going to assume that CARB rebate will run out, I think evmavin is probably right about Tesla buyers and other people using it up.

So, rough comparison. Fuel cost estimated at $2.50 per gallon.

Nissan Leaf

Price of car: $25,280
Estimated MPG: 200
Gallons to travel 100k miles: 500
Fuel cost to travel 100k miles: $1250
Fuel cost to travel 200k miles: $2500

Total cost - 100k miles: $26,530
Total cost - 200k miles: $27,780


Ford Fiesta

Price of car: $13,320
Estimated MPG: 35
Gallons to travel 100k miles: 2857
Fuel cost to travel 100k miles: $7142
Fuel cost to travel 200k miles: $14,285

Total cost - 100k miles: $20,462
Total cost - 200k miles: $27,605

[DSC OFF]

Here's the article:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/30/2011-nissan-leaf-us-pricing-officially-announced-as-low-as-25/

That is the base price. It is definitely higher than what I would have thought based on their "same price as equivalent gas car" comment. Not really that impressive for being rushed and under-engineered compared to competitors.

Will be interesting to see the warranty terms on this.


What competitors?

[DSC OFF]

Hard to calculate without mpg figures for the Leaf. But I'm going to assume that CARB rebate will run out, I think evmavin is probably right about Tesla buyers and other people using it up.

So, rough comparison. Fuel cost estimated at $2.50 per gallon.

Nissan Leaf

Price of car: $25,280
Estimated MPG: 200
Gallons to travel 100k miles: 500
Fuel cost to travel 100k miles: $1250
Fuel cost to travel 200k miles: $2500

Total cost - 100k miles: $26,530
Total cost - 200k miles: $27,780


Ford Fiesta

Price of car: $13,320
Estimated MPG: 35
Gallons to travel 100k miles: 2857
Fuel cost to travel 100k miles: $7142
Fuel cost to travel 200k miles: $14,285

Total cost - 100k miles: $20,462
Total cost - 200k miles: $27,605


That's a very good comparison. I guess I would just add that the Leaf also comes with the advantage of helping the environment and eliminating our dependence on foreign oil. Plus it provides some insurance towards gas prices going up extremely high again sometime over the life of the car. And the big disadvantage is obviously the range.

[evmavin]

I don't see an Aptera at the end of 2010 and it will be hard to pass up a Leaf and the available rebates, at close to $20K it's a no-brainer!

[Aptera#1434]

I don't see an Aptera at the end of 2010 and it will be hard to pass up a Leaf and the available rebates, at close to $20K it's a no-brainer!

I second that! I hope that Nissan is aware that they will have to introduce a superior high quality EV in order to capture the market.

[aptera1213]

Yeah. The LEAF was the EV I was least interested in. A bit bigger than my commuter needs. Not ugly, but not pretty.

But at that price, and being available soonest...well it will be hard not to get one.

I always said I wanted to support the early EV market...who brings an affordable EV to market first gets a serious look from me.

Nissan has made it hard not to look good and hard at that LEAF.

I could get one this winter and either give it to the wife or one of my daughters in a couple of years and get that Fiat 500 EV for myself.

Mmmmm...that actually isn't a bad idea. My eldest daughter could use a nice little commuter car (she's a school teacher). I get an EV to ride and support EV growth, then I get a "cuter" car that fits my commuter needs nicely in 2012.

Gavin

[jhm614]

I'm in. I will be putting down my $99 as soon as they open up the reservations.

[evmavin]

Mee too. I just hopeI can get one before the end of the year for the tax credit for 2010 and the CA rebate is still available. The lease is not too bad either particularly if you use it for business!

[mycomya]

I'm really surprised that Nissan has managed to pull off this kind of pricing. It means big time success, no question about it.

If the production LEAF is the same as the LEAF that demo'd around the country last year, look out. Live, in person, it is quite impressive. It is a really handsome, well-finished vehicle both inside and out.

I didn't think I could afford one, but now I feel like I can't afford NOT to get one!!

RIP Aptera

[aptera1213]

Eh, I'm not writing off Aptera yet. They need to understand their market and find their niche. As I've said since day one, If they can survive making sales of 3 to 5k vehicles a year nationwide, well then they can be around for many years.

But if they need 20k sales a year, well Nissan just shut that door.

Gavin

[mycomya]

In California, a $20-25k Nissan LEAF makes it difficult to justify a $35-40k three-wheeler from a company with Aptera's track record, IMO.

Aptera will really have to step their game up in terms of specs, in perceived company stability, in trust and communication, in distribution channels, service plans, warranties, etc.

As it is, they are hanging on by a thread and for the past two years, they've misunderstood their market and have not found their niche (while serially lying to and/or insulting early adopters along the way). Undeniably, their (potential) niche is a lot smaller today than what it was yesterday.

Suddenly, going forward, Aptera has to justify a $15k price premium over a very nice car that already exists. <boom!> That's the sound of a nail driven into their coffin. Aptera is in a very difficult position; DOE funds look more and more unlikely.

[LTLFTcomposite]

I'm in. I will be putting down my $99 as soon as they open up the reservations.

The article says their goal is 25,000 reservations by December. I don't think they have any idea what is headed their way... they could see that many the first day.

[mycomya]

The article says their goal is 25,000 reservations by December. I don't think they have any idea what is headed their way... they could see that many the first day.

Agreed. And unfortunately, you can bet that the Nissan dealers, with dollars in their eyes, will tack on their own premiums to the first vehicles. There is certain to be heavy demand and we all know what balances supply and demand: the green stuff.

I guess that I'll have to wait a little longer, after the Daddy Warbucks of the world get theirs... I just hope the $5k credit will still be available!

[evmavin]

There is a quote about Nissan managing the entire purchase experience end-to-end, I bet they restrict dealer gouging on the pre-orders to make sure the launch goes very well. If there is added dealer BS, I'm out as I never play that game.

[Aptera#1434]

I'm in. I will be putting down my $99 as soon as they open up the reservations.

I guess the start day for Leaf reservations is still up in the air??

Anyone have any idea when this will happen??

[jhm614]

I guess the start day for Leaf reservations is still up in the air??

Anyone have any idea when this will happen??

4/20 per the Wired blog post (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/03/nissan-leaf-ev-price)