Hybrid vs. Electric

[davidrools]

I'm sure everyone who's reserved a model either considered or agonized over the typ-1e vs. typ-1h. I figured it would be fun to have a thread discussing the advantages of each and what led to our decisions (or potential decisions if given the chance to reserve)

Hybrid advantages:
-range! 600 miles nonstop!
-quick "recharge" via gasoline fill up for extended road trips, no real limitation on use (aka freedom to drive it wherever, whenever)
-gasoline power when away from an available electric source for extended periods (e.g., vacation, business trips)
-only $3000 more
-still capable of all-electric operation (up to a claimed 65 IIRC, and enough for most commutes)

Electric advantages:
-$3000 less
-Longer electric-only range/more battery capacity
-Less maintenance (although the typ-1h's gas engine probably requires less maintenance than a typical car's engine)
-Potentially more likely to be HOV lane exempt*
-Earlier availability

anything to add?

My thought process went like this:
Only $3000 more for the hybrid, that's not a huge difference, why not get the hybrid!
But I'll be using it 99% of the time to go to and from work which is, right now, about 60 miles round trip. That would be pushing it for the hybrid's electric only range.
But what about longer, out of town trips? Wouldn't it be nice to be able to drive my aptera to Tahoe, LA, Vegas, PNW, or cross country?
Well I wouldn't want to drive the aptera in the snow, which is my most common out of town trip (from the bay area to Tahoe/Bear Valley) (imagine how invisible it would be! not to mention weaker battery performance, exposure to salty roads, and questionable traction)
And on my daily commute, I wouldn't want to lug around an internal combustion engine if I were only to use it on vacation trips (later I realized that I would instead be carrying around a lot more battery weight which pretty much cancels this argument out)
And eventually I settled on the typ-1e because I want to be completely free of having to go to the gas station, even though I'd probably be going once a month max with the hybrid. And as nice as it would be to be able to take a nice long road trip in the typ-1h, it would be such a rare occurrence that it wouldn't be worth it to me, and I'd probably need more passenger/luggage room for long trips anyway. So I decided to reserve the "aptera local"

And from reading this forum it seems like there are more 1e reservations than 1h's, which is odd since I assumed the 1h would be much more popular.

[c0mp13x]

Firmly in the Typ-1e camp.

1) Spouse has a Camry Hybrid (a remarkable vehicle) and I love cruising parking lots in full EV mode (<30mph). Dead silent, smooth as glass... I'm sold on a full EV. Also, the Camry is a awesome vehicle when I need to carry more people or go longer distances.

2) Politically, don't want to buy gas anymore. No more gas stations for me, no more funding our enemies...

3) Live in SoCal, I want my HOV stickers and a clean, non-polluting vehicle to ride in the HOV lanes with.

4) Work commute is 30 miles one way. My company still has it's EV-1 paddle charge station right in front of the building. The parking spots sit empty with 2 duplex AC outlets on either side of the paddle charger. Perfect!

5) EV simplicity means I can do a some of my own maintenance.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2117/2323592756_84c3e982e9_o.jpg

:D

[futura]

Typ1-e; pretty much along the rationale of c0mp13x.
And I'm bolstering it with PV on the house.
Also:
My commute isn't that bad. I've got something else to tap into for
long trips.
I'll bank the $3k and bet on a battery that gives twice the range in 3 more yrs.
Betting on battery technology has been kind of like being a Cubs fan, but I figure of Boston could do it, maybe A123 can.
Cheers.

[butter]

Very much like the two before me: all-electric, all the way, because:

1. I don't want to give another cent to the evil evil oil companies,
2. Big fat zero direct emissions

also:

3. I never ever EVER go anywhere "far"; if I wanted to or had to, I am ready to rent a car for that less than 1% occurrence.

4. If I'm gonna go freaky and get a neat-freaky car, might as well go all the way!! Screw any semblance of an ordinary car!!! YAYYYY

[Dubito]

I’ll eventually hack the aptera and swap more batteries for the engine for local use, and swap the gas engine back in for trips. Figured it would be easier to start w/ the hybrid than with the all electric. (muffler, exhaust, noise dampening, etc.) Never had a laptop, or piece of electronics I haven’t eventually hacked.

[KarenRei]

The Typ-1e seems the perfect choice to hack. There'd be no need for a gasoline engine with a next-gen battery. Why pay $3k extra for it and have a vehicle set up to have to deal with all of the troubles that come with a gasoline engine, like exhaust and so forth?

If you do get into hacking Apteras, perhaps when some next gen batteries come out, I could pay you to upgrade mine perhaps? :)

[Dubito]

KarenRei,
I agree w/ you as far as next gen batteries, but I’m wanting to trade my 13 yr. old ICE car in for an Aptera and don’t want to wait years more. If those Stanford/Nanowire batteries that hold 10x the power come out, that little engine goes on ebay, but until then, I don’t want to leave the efficient car in the garage when I go on trips.
-Craig

[3-4-me]

Being a red blooded American male, I had a hard time giving up the freedom of the ICE completely.
My dad and sister both live in Las Vegas, so I'd like to have the range to make the drive.

On another line of thinking:
The generator on the Aptera is reported to be a 12kw.
Living in earthquake country, and the recent threats of brown outs etc. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a power backup in emergency.
Most larger motorhomes only have a 5kw generator, and they're huge(~2'X3' 200lbs). I'm curious how a 12kw can be so small:confused:

[Matthijs]

When I will get the chance to order it will be a Typ-1e simply because in my county the Aptera Local isn't local! Heck the Netherlands is so small I could get out of the county on one charge! From Amsterdam to somewhere in Germany will not be a problem. :D No more gas for me ever! And I will be so glad to be rid of an inefficient gas engine with everything that comes with it!

[IanO]

When it comes to Portland, I will order a Typ-1h. It will be my only motor vehicle. I go by bike for work and short errands. I mostly use my car for shopping (pure electric mode for either model) and longer trips, like to Seattle to see relatives. In fact, I expect getting an Aptera will spur me to go on more long road trips, simply for the fun of driving it and showing it off. (That was part of the honeymoon of being an early Prius adopter.)

[aptera1213]

i'm a bit torn...i ordered the hybrid, but i admit that i would likely use my aptera mostly around town...

but i want it to visit my daughter in phoenix and even my in laws in florida...i figure it will be cheaper than flying...and a lot more fun...i don't like flying


actually i have my two scooters and my bicycle for around town, so maybe the aptera will be for groceries and for long trips...

so i should keep the hybrid...though i love the idea of not buying gas ever again...and i would love to get it ASAP, which means i should get the electric only...but patience is a virtue, or so they say

g

[butter]

Yes, patience is a virtue, but I feel I must chime in and say I WANT MY APTERA AND I WANT IT NOW!!!!

************
Okay, I'm on earth again. Just had to let that out.

Back to normal but a little spazzy and excited as heck,
Amy

[qpham63]

I WANT MY APTERA AND I WANT IT NOW!!!!



You are not alone Amy. I want mine 20 years ago...It is just that Steve Fambro was busy working on that Human Genome thing:(

Perhaps Steve is cruising around checking out these Forums...Steve, dude. Can we be of some assistant on production?

Oh sorry, I don't mean to be myself at 10 in the back seat of my parent's '68Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser chanting "are we there yet?"

We are glad that you have focused more on your and our dream vehicle after you got done with the genome thing.

"are we the.. SMACK..." "ouch, sorry..."

[Dubito]

Quan Q Pham,
From your signature, do you have two apteras on order? Are they both “local” versions or one of each?

[Dubito]

Thought I saw this, but couldn’t remember where. On the aptera website FAQs it says:

Can I change my vehicle from an electric to hybrid or vice versa?
In the coming months, the MyAptera.com owners' page will be made available. On this page, you will be able to adjust any option including hybrid/electric. Nothing is final until you receive your purchase agreement about a month prior to obtaining your vehicle.

Looks like we have many months to reconsider our hybrid/electric decision.

[Aptera1171]

When I put in the order, I thought this decision was easy. The Aptera will be in Carlsbad and I'm in Fresno. If I can't recharge it along the way, I'd better get the hybrid :rolleyes:

Also, we do alot of trips from Fresno to Stanford hospital (congential heart defect issues). The trip is about 175 miles each way. I'd switch to the 1e if it could get us to Stanford, then we could recharge at Stanford in a reasonable time (say 4 hours or so). Right now, we drive a VW Jetta TDI (diesel) and average about 47 mpg on the trip. Not bad, but we just paid $48 to fill it up (at $3.99/gal). I HATE paying for energy that should have been converted to better forms back after the 1973 oil crisis (man I thought all this would be resolved under Carter's administrtion :mad: ).

Oh, and yes, I also have PV installed. With the solar up for the last year, the electric part of my PG&E bill was $315 for all of 2007.

Give me a better battery solution and I'll jump to the 1e!

[catmando]

I live in Texas(Ft. Worth) and before gas got so high we went on long in-state trips regularly, so my choice will be the hybrid.

[futura]

On another line of thinking:
The generator on the Aptera is reported to be a 12kw.
Living in earthquake country, and the recent threats of brown outs etc. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a power backup in emergency.
Most larger motorhomes only have a 5kw generator, and they're huge(~2'X3' 200lbs). I'm curious how a 12kw can be so small:confused:


Here's a photo of the Chinese Plug-in Hybrid from BYD (Detroit Auto show).
21
This is sitting cross-ways in a Camry-sized engine compartment. The motor on the left side is stated to be a 50 kW, 1-liter engine. Seems like 12 kW is reasonable for the power-plant space of the Aptera.
I like your idea of the power-backup, but I was thinking sort of the opposite. With a 10kWh battery (and rooftop PV) I could run my house in an emergency off the Aptera at night and panels in the day. Also, when the battery pack gets replaced, i.e.; too worn out for the car (80% charge) I can keep it in the garage for the same purpose.
Cheers.

[windfinder]

My line of thinking was that I could upgrade the type 1e in the future with a small DC generator, effectively turning it into a series hybrid. Maybe something removable like an APU (auxillary power unit) so that I can just put it in on extended trips. Something like this from ecycle:
http://www.ecycle.com/Imagesnew/hatzps.jpg

They are lower voltage than the Aptera's battery but that could be overcome with a customized job or power electronics.

[3-4-me]

Windfinder,
What's the size of that generator? That looks compact.
Does the size of the battery require a 12kw generator to provide enough charge?
I've wondered why you couldn't use one of the small Honda gen.s
They're small, light, and quiet. I figure 2kw just isn't enough to get'r done.

[qpham63]

Quan Q Pham,
From your signature, do you have two apteras on order? Are they both “local” versions or one of each?

The Aptera would have plenty of range for me as an electric version. I don't like the limitation though. I only commute 18 miles and will set up a charge station so the hybrid makes sense for me as I would not run the ICE often and can take the hybrid basically anywhere.

They are both hybrids that I have signed up for.

The cost difference is very minimal and the possibilities are greater in a hybrid.:D

[qpham63]

Also, we do alot of trips from Fresno to Stanford hospital (congential heart defect issues). The trip is about 175 miles each way. I'd switch to the 1e if it could get us to Stanford, then we could recharge at Stanford in a reasonable time (say 4 hours or so).


Congential heart defect issues? You better stick to the hybrid. I am sure that you will find that the majority of your local trips would be too short to get the ice running. I am sure if you opportunity charge you will do alright.



Oh, and yes, I also have PV installed. With the solar up for the last year, the electric part of my PG&E bill was $315 for all of 2007.

Give me a better battery solution and I'll jump to the 1e!


If the infrastructure was there, and the recharge or battery pack swap can be done in about 15 minutes (competitive with a gas stop), 1e would make all the difference in the world.

Care to give more info on our PV system? # in house hold, before PV electric cost, actual savings, cost of PV system, ROI, how long?:confused:

The last time I checked in to this, the system cost for us would have been ~$27K:eek: and that is our cost after all the incentives and government subsidies.

I am wondering if the cost has come down or what? With an Aptera, use of electricity would increase for sure. Seems like you need to add some PV panels when you get your Aptera.

[RoxChkPlusOny]

Typ-1e for most of the same reasons stated above by those who agree. However, I would also add the revelation Karen and I had in some other thread: that the Typ-1h might have to have its batteries replaced 2-3x earlier than the 1e model because the batteries will have to charge/discharge many more times per unit distance.

[Dubito]

...However, I would also add the revelation Karen and I had in some other thread: that the Typ-1h might have to have its batteries replaced 2-3x earlier than the 1e model because the batteries will have to charge/discharge many more times per unit distance.

If this is the case, and there are 2-3x the number of cells to be replaced in the type 1-e, then won’t the battery replacement cost between the electric and hybrid be a wash?

[KarenRei]

Yes, it would be a wash in terms of replacement costs. And I think people are way too worried about battery replacement costs. You're looking at changing something every 10+ years that may not cost much more than replacing a transmission or other major gasoline engine component (I'd be surprised if the batteries were more than $0.20-$0.30/Wh after that long in mass production). And you may get better batteries out of the deal. Overall, the maintenance costs will almost certainly be lower.

Oh, and as for the cost of solar: as an eco-minded computer geek, I coded the following solar power economics calculator a while back:

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/progs/insolation/

Its results match up quite closely with PVWATTS, which is the gold standard of solar power calculators. However, mine gives much more precise data, does economics calcs, and allows for a lot more customization of the setup to match your local situation.

[futura]

The last time I checked in to this, the system cost for us would have been ~$27K:eek: and that is our cost after all the incentives and government subsidies.

I am wondering if the cost has come down or what? With an Aptera, use of electricity would increase for sure. Seems like you need to add some PV panels when you get your Aptera.

qpham63,

Check KarenRei's solar calculator(link is in this thread here somewhere), it's quite thorough. The clincher for me was a discussion with a real estate agent who said houses with grid-connected solar were automatically selling at or above the cost of installation. So, ROI is built-in here in SoCal, maybe Lodi is different though.
Cheers.

[Dubito]

My line of thinking was that I could upgrade the type 1e in the future with a small DC generator, effectively turning it into a series hybrid. Maybe something removable like an APU (auxillary power unit) so that I can just put it in on extended trips. Something like this from ecycle:
http://www.ecycle.com/Imagesnew/hatzps.jpg

They are lower voltage than the Aptera's battery but that could be overcome with a customized job or power electronics.

Windfinder,
I hack a lot of electronics, but I’d be concerned with: Wiring up a generator to automatically start/stop, applying proper charging amps w/out overcharge. Have it be quiet, make it fit in the cramped space, not overheat the batteries which are likely sharing the same space, allow for exhaust, gas tank, filler nozzle cap and door (you’d be cutting into the composite shell of the aptera at this point.
You are a braver, more competent, man than I.
Craig

[Dubito]

PS. Windfinder,
Going from hybrid to pure electric, I would only have to remove engine/tank and replace with a battery pack in parallel with the installed batteries, making sure the cells are the same type and configured to the same voltage. If the charger in the type-1h is less powerful than on the 1e I’d either have to replace or allow longer charging time. This fits much more closely with my skill set.

[Chupacabra]

The decision has already been made for me because I have no place to charge it nightly, so I'll require a hybrid. Plus I don't like the idea of spending $30,000 on a car which is good only for commuting. If the Typ 1e ever evolves to a point it measures its range in the hundreds of miles, and the infrastructure gets built to a point that I can find charge stations everywhere - then I would consider a full EV.

With all these new EV's in design and production phases soon, I do realize they will create a demand. And where there is a demand, it will be filled. We CAN look forward to charging stations in our future! :)

[c0mp13x]

FYI Re: Hybrid vs Electric Resevations



I contacted CEO Steve Fambro. He said they now have 996 California customers. 70 percent of these orders have been for the hybrid. Aptera returned about 355 deposits from customers outside California. (The company wants to perfect its customer service in California before expanding.) So the total number of reservations is around 1,350. I can't wait to see them on the road in Los Angeles!
Link: Aptera at AlternativeEnergy (http://www.alternativeenergy.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1066929:BlogPost:21924&page=1)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2117/2323592756_84c3e982e9_o.jpg

:D

[butter]

YES! That moves me way up in the line!! I'm officially #1294 but I live in L.A. and want the all-electric!

All I do is commute. Nothing else. So it couldn't be more perfect.

BRING IT ON

P.S. It kind of bugs me (just a tiny bit, not much at all) to see it repeated everywhere that "aptera" means "wingless flight" when in fact it really only means "wingless." "Ptera" means wing, and the prefix "a" simply negates that. There is no "flight" involved in the word... sorry, had to vent that little piece.. otherwise the Aptera is nearly perfect.

[LQUAN]

I am all against ever having to stop at the gas station, except for junk food. I have my heart set on a Type 1e. But I think I'll wait for some real world range before I buy. If the Type 1e can deliver at least 120 miles at a constant 65mph with one occupant, I am game. I just hate to worry about remaining range every 5 minutes when I am driving. Otherwise, I will have to settle with the Type 1h. I like to get out of town with my Aptera once in a while, not just commuting to work.

Converting from electric gas-hybrid to pure electric is much easier than from pure electric to electric gas-hybrid. I am brave enough to convert my Aptera from electric hybrid to pure electric but not the other way around. Unless Aptera sells kit for you do such upgrade, I don't think it worth the headache to do it on your own. It is a headache when dealing with existing on-bard software/firmware that control the drive mode.

I hope the smart people behind those new battery technologies will deliver a marketable battery that exceed 120 miles range when I ready to buy my Aptera, hopefully Type 1e.:rolleyes:

[Dilekz]

I think by buying the hybrid, you are heavier. Less MPG.
Don't ever want to see oil again... except for bearings etc. =)

As other people said.. bank the 3k. And or upgrade the battery.

Hybrid people say: Okey but what if you want to drive long distances.
Well here is my answer: You dont drive alot long distances. And if you do? You rent a car. Or go with bus or train.

Im from europe.. ( NOT FAIR!! ). Equalivant to your gasoline we have to pay more then 8 dollar for a gallon.

But also, i can understand the people who love the hybrid version.
That's why its good they bring out both! Don't you think?


Also... about Solar panels. You have 2 situations. If you use the electric of your solar panels for home use. You will earn your solar panels way more slower back then if you use the solar panels for EV use. WHY ? you ask yourself...
Because Electric from the grid is cheaper then gasoline. And gasoline is used for the road. :) Think about it.

We have the Loremo this year. But it is a diesel that goes 1 litre on 70km.
If it was electric and cool looking like the aptera... i wasn't here :)

[drivin98]

We have the Loremo this year. But it is a diesel that goes 1 litre on 70km.
If it was electric and cool looking like the aptera... i wasn't here :)

An electric version of the Loremo has been announced.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/22/loremo-will-go-all-electric-skipping-this-years-geneva-motor-s/

[LQUAN]

Loremo looks is also very cool. However, with its door design, getting in and out of the car is not practical for some people. Opening the car door when it rains will certainly get your seat wet. Who would thought of lifting half the car chasis to get in and out?:mad:

[Chupacabra]

I just took a look at that Loremo car and at first the front half sounded cool, but the more I think about it there are some SERIOUS safety concerns there. And not to mention it doesn't look like they even took rain into consideration.

[butter]

Is it me or does that Loremo look like it's 3 feet tall? I don't get it; it looks like a toy model. Seriously, is that car in the photo in the above link a real-sized version?

[LQUAN]

No kidding about safey issue on Loremo. You need strong legs and back to get in and out of this car. Don't take grandma out for a drive in this car!

In a front end accident, how do you open the door when your car front end is stuck to the other car? What if the door power lifters get damage in an accident, how do you get out? This is the reason Lamborghini does not make butterfly doors like they did on Countach and Diablo anymore. At least the Countach and Diablo have 2 doors, if one failed, you can use the other one.

[KarenRei]

120 miles is the range at 55mph, not 65mph. I've never seen a range rating for 65mph, but I've seen on multiple occasions 70 miles range stated for at ~85mph. Extrapolating, I'd expect around 105 miles at 65mph.

Note that the PHEV only has 40 miles of EV range at 55mph. So if you have a commute that's long enough that you'd run out of juice in the Typ-1e, the trip will be mostly on gasoline in the PHEV. Efficient use of gasoline, mind you, but still mostly gasoline.

And yes, that Loremo picture looks like a toy. ;)