Possible New Competitor for the Aptera Type-1h

[MegaAutoBit]

Just read this today on AutoBlogGreen. Toyota in an effort to keep up with GM may be releasing the iQ within the next six months. With a drag coefficient of 0.168, and a 169 MPG, this would be the closest comparable product for the Aptera. Supposedly there are rumors of it also being a plug-in. A link is blow.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autobloggreen.com/media/2008/03/ufe301.jpg

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/15/toyota-to-counter-gms-hybrid-suv-onslaught-with-a-mini-hybrid-o/

[MegaAutoBit]

Does anyone remember the drag coefficient of the Aptera?

[c0mp13x]

The Aptera currently claims a drag coefficient of .11

But, the pic you're showing in your post is of the Daihatsu UFE III spoken about in that the article you linked. This cool little concept car unfortunately won't be produced in 6 months, but I would love to see one! Toyota has invested in 51% of Daihatsu and will be using them as a resource for small cars. The overall shape obviously took some design cues from the Honda Insight, especially the back end.

The Toyota iQ looks more like a tiny car response to the "Smart" car, take a look here: 2009 Toyota iQ (http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/04/geneva-08-the-3-1-seat-toyota-iq/)

[Aptera 1103]

From the picture that looks like a one seater. Seems like a lot of wasted space for one person.

[G-Jet]

It is not a one seater but a tandem. This would mostly get used as a single occupant car though. Notice how it is like the VW 1 liter in many ways. It has no mirrors like the aptera.

The IQ (smart?, get it), is exactly their response to the SMART.

[MegaAutoBit]

Sorry about the confusion, I was reading the article as I rolled out of bed this morning. Upstairs wasn’t all fired up yet. However, this new clarity puts my heart at eases.


The IQ (smart?, get it), is exactly their response to the SMART.

I never caught that before, good call.

[Dubito]

If you watch the video on AutoBlogGreen past the dancing girls, the UFEIII seats three; a driver up front and two passengers in back. ???

[evansm76]

According to this article, planned for early 09 release, is a five-seater hybrid for under $20K. No indication of gas mileage, though.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080521/bs_nm/honda_dc

Cheers...Mark
Corona, CA
#1681, Typ-1h :aptera:

[aptera1213]

yeah, honda is suppose to have a hybrid fit, a new 5 seat hybrid and also the crz hybrid all out within a year or two...amazing

i like the look of the crz and a hybrid fit would kick ass

all will only be 2000 more than the standard gas models...detroit is shitting bricks as i type

it would be nice if honda also made the crv a hybrid...that is the car my wife wants...maybe i can convince her to get the hybrid fit instead

[Apt Performer]

It IQ is definitely cute, but it appears (even if you can fold those back two seets down) there is more "trunk" room in the Aptera, which is a big selling point for a keyboard wielding musician like myself.

[johnvall]

The car shown on the video will never take off, just another death trap, in case of a wreck. How do you get out? Interresting..........but stupid

[No. 2604]

I like this one, but production date is still unknown. All electric with a motor in each wheel, and charges in 10 minutes. 644 HP and 0-60 in 4.8 sec. Top speed 155mph, and range of 350 miles. Seats up to 7 passengers... sounds tempting, even for $60k. I'll try to get my wife to trade in her Volvo for this... I'm getting the Aptera for my 30 miles/day commute.


http://www.zapworld.com/zap-x-crossover

[Pueo711]

I'm not so sure about ZAP. I've read some less than favorable things about that company. IMO, a strong competitor for the Aptera will be the Venture One (DVC tech, EV/PHEV trike) with this caveat: IF they produce their prototype in the near future and IF they're able to meet both their production schedule and price point.

[aptera1213]

that zap looks nice, but time will tell...for all those specs and a lotus body, the price will climb

the venture one i hear a lot about...i actually was on a waiting list for the carver quite some time ago when they first came out...expensive (near 50k) and never came to the states...

how the venture one decided they could make the same car, or better, of less than half the cost surprised me...i think of it as vaporware till i see them on the road...at least at that price...the problem is, if the ventureone ups it's price to 30k, it will be a small niche vehicle for people like me that want to lean and drive...at 20k it would sell more, but probably lose money...not something a small start up can stand...and you would have to get to 15k or less if you want a mainstream selling vehicle....

but it does look fun to drive...

[JoeReal]

Possible Aptera Competitor:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6844/jetdownloadsp9.jpg
By joereal (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/joereal) at 2008-06-05

Acabion. Does 340MPH! For Real! But they'll have to scale it back to 2-seater model, 600-700 lb composite body, 600 mile range, averaging 150 mpg and 120 mpc. With automatic outrigger to ease the turns. It will be a serious contender in the upcoming Automobile X-prize.

Have no fear, I haven't heard much...

[evolutionmovement]

I believe it goes for over a million.

[gistmarrs]

It won't compete for the x-prize. To enter, you must have a business plan to produce over 10,000 per year. From the Acabion web site, they take 3 years to build each one at a cost of nearly $3 million.

[JoeReal]

so the aptera has nothing to fear. Thanks!

[SpyderMike]

so the aptera has nothing to fear. Thanks!

yet...given enough time, others will be there.

[JoeReal]

150 mpg SUV!

http://www.afstrinity.com/images/press/xh150-bluesky-vid-sm.jpg

The SUV could possibly eat the Aptera for breakfast... Uses Extreme Hybrid Train (XHT). But it is not the SUV that is being sold, rather the XHT technology which the Aptera could also use, for an additional $8,750. The AFS trinity was mentioned earlier in this forum, but here's more information.

A couple of weeks ago, company called AFS Trinity has demonstrated to have our area's local reporters, ie, Sacramento Bee, have a test drive on their converted Saturn Vue that has a new type of extreme hybrid power train that can achieve 150 mpg! The AFS Trinity has made two prototypes in just 6 months out of locally available components, and then made the trip to Washington. Imagine, it would cost me only $15.46 per week on total gasoline and electric cost. How much more that there is no end to the increase and profits of oil!

I think the bigger vehicle as implemented can accomodate more diversified people.

In summary, it can achieve 150 mpg, 40 mile range in all electric mode, faster than most cars in 0-60 mph test, 87 mph top speed, $1/day electric charging cost (maybe $1.50 if you live in California).


http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/955111.html
Plug-in hybrids promise more power, greater efficiency
By Jim Downing - jdowning@sacbee.com

Last Updated 6:22 am PDT Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Story appeared in MAIN NEWS section, Page A1


AFS Trinity founder and CEO Ed Furia talks about the company's plug-in hybrids that are available for test drives in Sacramento today.
The Saturn Vue Green Line hybrids use ultracapacitors to boost power. Renée C. Byer / rbyer@sacbee.com

http://media.sacbee.com/smedia/2008/05/20/22/965-3W21HYBRID.embedded.prod_affiliate.4.JPG

Move over, Prius, the plug-in hybrid is coming.

With a recent mandate that effectively requires major automakers to put at least 58,000 gas-electric vehicles on California roads by 2014, the state is prodding new technology forward.

After years in the prototype stage, auto industry giants and startup companies are investing, researching and building prototype vehicles that can be fueled either with gas or electricity from a wall socket.

General Motors and Toyota plan to launch versions by late 2010, while Honda and some smaller manufacturers are expected to follow.

"Plug-in hybrids are going to be the vehicle story of the next few years," said Joseph Romm, an energy policy expert with the Center for American Progress, a think tank in Washington, D.C.

Before they become as prevalent as a Prius, however, plug-ins must clear a few hurdles, mainly involving battery technology.

"The largest issues are battery cost, life and reliability," said Menahem Anderman, a Yuba County-based consultant who specializes in automotive battery technologies.

The 300-pound battery pack General Motors is building into its Chevrolet Volt plug-in, for instance, can't yet deliver its promised 40-mile range and the long-term durability needed for a mass-market car, according to a report by a hybrid technology research team at the University of California, Davis.

GM says the batteries are progressing, but many experts doubt they'll be road-ready in time for a scheduled 2010 launch.

The problem: Batteries tend to perform best, and last longest, when discharged gently. But ordinary driving – accelerating up a freeway onramp, say – demands big bursts of power. While a huge battery pack – several times what GM wants – can handle that load, smaller ones wear out quickly under the strain and have problems with overheating. Big battery packs also are more expensive.

That has battery manufacturers and entrepreneurs hustling to find a fix.

One of those is AFS Trinity, an energy technology company staffed primarily by former Lawrence Livermore Lab engineers who've developed the XH-150, a plug-in prototype.

Backed by $50 million in venture capital, AFS Trinity believes its patented design resolves some battery problems. The company claims it has created the only functioning plug-in hybrid with a 40-mile all-electric range.

AFS Trinity founder and CEO Ed Furia, an organizer of the first Earth Day in 1971 and former federal EPA administrator, is in Sacramento this week, meeting with state officials and showing off his prototypes – a pair of modified Saturn Vue Green Line hybrids.

They're designed to get around the battery problem by using ultracapacitors – a scaled-up version of the devices that allow a small camera battery to provide the burst of electricity needed to power a flash.

The car's instrument panel looks ordinary, save for two analog gauges on the dashboard. One shows the battery level, the other the capacitor charge.

While Furia's Vue is driving at a steady speed, the batteries charge up the capacitors. On a hard acceleration, the capacitor acts as a booster, giving the electric motor the juice it wants, and taking much of the load off the battery.

During a recent test drive, Furia pulled over to the shoulder of Interstate 5 just north of downtown to show how the capacitors work. What came next is clearly his favorite part of a test-drive.

"Anybody have any health problems?" he said, jokingly.

Then Furia stomped on the accelerator, and the car rocketed to 65 mph.

Conventional hybrids have a reputation for being gutless, yet Furia takes pride in his vehicle's power. "There's the perception that if you get an electric car, you give something up," he said.

Furia has filed a number of patents on the capacitor design and hopes to sell the idea to a major automaker. If mass produced, he estimates, the XH-150 would cost $8,700 more than the standard Saturn Vue Green Line.

Based on prototypes like the XH-150 now being tested on California roads, plug-ins promise to put the fuel economy of today's hybrids to shame.

Comparing dollars per mile, internal-combustion engines are not as efficient as electric motors. It costs around $1 for enough energy to drive the XH-150 40 miles on battery power. Since most drivers are on the road less than 40 miles most days, the potential savings are huge, especially with $4-a-gallon gas.

What's more, a vehicle running on electricity has no smog-forming tailpipe emissions, and, even when pollution from electricity generation is taken into account, emits less greenhouse gases than a similarly sized vehicle burning fossil fuel.

Dan Sperling, director of the Institute for Transportation Studies at UC Davis, said the next few years will likely see companies large and small producing different riffs on plug-in hybrids, seeking the combination of sticker price, electric range and overall fuel efficiency consumers want.

"The industry is going to be experimenting for many years trying to figure out how best to design the tech in a way that consumers will value it," Sperling said. "They have to figure out what people are really willing to pay a premium for."



Here's the Company Website:
http://www.afstrinity.com/

AFS Trinity XH™ Plug-in Hybrid Program – 2008

AFS Trinity Power has developed patent-pending technology that makes it possible for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles to achieve 150 MPG, go 40 miles in all-electric mode, and use gasoline for additional unlimited miles in hybrid mode.

In July 2007, in order to very quickly demonstrate all of the key attributes of this technology, the company mounted an effort to build two fully operational XH-150 SUV prototypes using off-the-shelf components. The two vehicles—modified Saturn Vue SUVs—were built in less than six months. They were unveiled on January 13, 2008 at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit (Press Announcement) and (Salon.com test drive report).

On April 8, 2008, AFS Trinity started a cross country tour to give Americans their first onroad look at what CNN and others suggested may be “the car of the future.” The XH-150 arrived at the Capitol Mall in Washington, D.C. on Sunday, April 20, 2008 (Video of Congressional Ride-and-Drives). On May 2, 2008, AFS Trinity and Ricardo announced a joint Extreme Fleet™ program that will slash gasoline and diesel use by car, SUV and truck fleets. (Press Release).

[KarenRei]

Joe: It's a "150mpg SUV" using the same fuzzy math that presents the Typ-1h as a 300mpg, or even "infinite mpg" car. Except they're using it to an even more extreme degree. This is just a 2007 Saturn Vue Greenline that they've added their drivetrain onto. It still has the same drag as the Vue, but now it weighs even more. Their "150 mpg" figure comes from assuming people drive 40 miles a day six days a week (they have a 40 mile battery) and then 100 miles 1 day a week. That works out to 340 miles and the consumption of gasoline for 60 miles. This means that they're needing 2.27 gallons of gasoline for that 60 miles -- i.e., in charge sustaining mode, it's getting an unimpressive 26 mpg. In Aptera's case, if they used the trick to the same degree that AFS Trinity does, they'd come up with the Typ-1h getting *1100 mpg*. But it'd be an equally bogus number. You can see how you can get whatever mpg number you want out of it just by adjusting how much driving is short range and how much is long range, then ignoring the electricity component.

I hate that Aptera is using the same inflated mpg number trick as these people (and as almost every PHEV-maker out there), even if they're using it to a lesser degree. To report mileage for PHEVs, you need *three stats*:

1) All-electric range in an EPA drive cycle
2) Wh/mi in electric mode in an EPA drive cycle
3) Charge-sustaining MPG in an EPA drive cycle

Giving only one number is only going to mislead people and not accurately represent the real situation. You could potentially narrow it down to just two stats, since #2 and #3 should be roughly linearly related, but narrowing it down to one is going to really misrepresent the situation, *especially* if you pretend that the electricity is free.

[JoeReal]

That's great Karen! The people should be well informed, as most members here are, as how to interpret claimed mileages. We need close scrutiny and contextualize the mpg or equivalent rating of each model or technology coming into the market. More especially so, if reporters are the one citing technical data. Most companies, also including Aptera, will tend to report the best mpg or mpc achieved and the reporters not including the gory details under which the tests were conducted or how the "equivalent" numbers were arrived at.

[Eyelawdoc]

It does look like a second generation Insight. Very sleek and sexy!

Ironic that the real second generation 5 seat Insight to be produced by Honda looks like a Prius!

[Eyelawdoc]

Possible Aptera Competitor:

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6844/jetdownloadsp9.jpg
By joereal (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/joereal) at 2008-06-05

Acabion. Does 340MPH! For Real! But they'll have to scale it back to 2-seater model, 600-700 lb composite body, 600 mile range, averaging 150 mpg and 120 mpc. With automatic outrigger to ease the turns. It will be a serious contender in the upcoming Automobile X-prize.

Have no fear, I haven't heard much...

It reminds me alot of the 1950's lake racers built out of WWII fighter plane drop tanks!

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

The Honda Insight (the name of their new 5-seater hybrid) is going to sell for $18,500 and get ~60mpg. We should see it very soon at the Paris Auto show?

On the OT of the Daihatsu -- the structural integrity of the chassis with that HUGE door is pretty suspect...but the overall shape is quite impressive. And unless the bloke doing the video is really short, the car is much bigger than I thought.

[speculawyer]

All these bubble canopy cars better be designed with damn good AC systems.

[gg222]

Found this electric vehicle with easy to replace battery pack. ;)

http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/GermanElectricCar_thumb.jpg