Will Aptera stay in the X prize race?

[turbo wing]

Tesla and two others have pulled out of the X prize race

Every one thinks Tesla is a big and going some were company, For those of you who have not heard yet,,, they have recently dropped out of the X prize race apparently because there new car failed miserably to get there desired range, only managing some were around a 50 mile range and not getting over 100 MPGe

[bardofoc]

That is surprising to hear that Tesla only gets around 50 MPGe from its vehicle. Of all the teams in competition, I considered them to have the most potential in meeting all their standards. I hope Aptera stays in the race until the end, cuz if not, then I dont think we will see Aptera hitting the production line ever. Isn't there also an actual race involved between the vehicles as part of the competition? In that case, I dont see how any of the others can keep up with Aptera if it truly is capable of hitting 90 MPH.

[turbo wing]

That is surprising to hear that Tesla only gets around 50 MPGe from its vehicle. Of all the teams in competition, I considered them to have the most potential in meeting all their standards. I hope Aptera stays in the race until the end, cuz if not, then I dont think we will see Aptera hitting the production line ever. Isn't there also an actual race involved between the vehicles as part of the competition? In that case, I dont see how any of the others can keep up with Aptera if it truly is capable of hitting 90 MPH.


It is a little surprising to hear Tesla has this problem, the car Tesla was entering in the race was not the sports car we all know Tesla for, it is a four seat four wheeled car. There are a few pictures floating around but not much ells, All so I hear there sports car apparently dos not get 100 MPGe so wouldn't make it in the race, I understand they claim over 200 mile range for the sports car but reporters claimed far less,

The X prise race is broken into three categories, the Tesla was entered in the main stream category which is for four seats, four wheels, the prize for this category is 5 million
The Aptera is entered in the alternative two seat side by side class and the prize is 2.5 million

Then you have the two seat tandem class for the other 2.5 million

In each class there are different rules, one stage of the race requires the vehicles to travel at 60 mph four 200 miles non stop, this is in the mainstream class so you can see why Tesla had no choice but to drop out,

In both the alternative classes they will only have to go 100 miles at 60 mph non stop so if Aptera can't get a solid 100 miles out of a charge they will loos this stage of the race,

Aptera 0 to 60 time is not that impressive and not likely to win this stage either, there will be three months of staged races one other one I heard of and I don't think Aptera will win is the slalom race as it has a high center of gravity which will slow it down thus loosing this category as well

Here is a link to the X prize contenders and the categories each teams are in http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/teams

For example under Aptera ( and all other teams ) you can see the category in brackets. you may also notice that Aptera is listed as entering a Hybrid Electric, this is important because if this is what they had in there business plan then they can not change this or they will be disqualified, I hope they get there onboard generator in the car before next May when the race starts.

APTERA
California (USA)
Vehicle Name: The Aptera
Fuel Type: Electric / Hybrid Electric
Class: Alternative (Side-by-Side)


On another note there are some very fast cars in the alternative classes, if you think the Tesla sports car is fast have a look at this,
the Tango absolutely kills the Tesla in a 1/4 mile race Tango v Tesla @ Infineon Nov 30th

[bardofoc]

Thanks for the info. I was going to actually wait it out for a year or so after Aptera hit the market before buying in just to see if all the kinks had been worked out for the final product. One of my biggest fears is that a month after I buy the car I'll realize that the Aptera is averaging nowhere near the amount of miles per charge or gallon of gasoline that it was projected to average. But with the way the rules have been set up for this race, I may have many of my questions answered sooner than I expected. According to your last post and what I read on the X Prize website, "next May" means this upcoming May 2010, or less than 5 months from now. Wow. I wouldn't think that Aptera would have a vehicle to race by then, but they obviously feel confident that they can make the deadline. I got a look at the Tango, and I still can't believe that this dopey upturned box managed to outgun a Tesla!!! I also looked at the vehicles from other teams, and one thing I can say is that electric cars, for the most part, are ugly as he**.

[turbo wing]

I also looked at the vehicles from other teams, and one thing I can say is that electric cars, for the most part, are ugly as he**.

Yes it dose seem that a lot of high MPGe cars are ugly in some peoples minds but then what we consider good looking is a personal choice. For example is a Corvette better looking then a Viper or Lambo.? or do you like a Zion lol I think the Zion is one of the all time ugliest cars ever made but look at how many people think there just the coolest thing ever lol

I think the biggest reason why high MPG cars look goofy is that physics plays a big part in getting high mileage, For example we all know the Aptera is supposed to get some were around 300 MPGe but has this ever been third party verified?, take a look at the evaro with a totally different aerodynamic approach from the Aptera and it gets over 300 MPGe verified by a university, so I would expect the Aptera to be right up there as well but look how different these to cars are from each other and from the conventional cars we see on the roads today,

Point is if we want the high mpg we have to go extreme in the body design, I highly doubt we will ever see a conventional looking car getting over 100 mpg, the biggest and most effective change we can make to a car to go the distance is to clean up the back of the car like the Aptera and a few others in order to reduce drag but then as we can see we end up with funny looking cars,

If people are serious about cleaning up the environment by using less oil we will see more odd looking designs on the roads in the coming years, it will be the only way.

[PatQ562]

It's interesting how much the era influences the style, even when the mission is nominally the same. For example you can immediately tell the 1930's version of a historic costume movie from the 1960's vs today, just by the hair styles alone, even though all the films are supposedly depicting the same historic period. Although all the serious high efficiency cars are super-streamlined, many of them resemble monsters from some kind of video game, with flaring nostrils and slit eyes. I guess this is what their designers think is cool. This is one reason many respond to the Aptera design, which has a much cleaner look, which usually stands the test of time.

I clicked thru all the Alternative X-Prize candidates, and I have to agree, to my eyes most of the radical concepts are ugly. It's also interesting to see how the teams describe themselves, and how many appear to have barely conceived a design, let alone run actual hardware. According to the rules, all of these hopefuls are supposed to have a business plan for building 10,000 units (or some such number)

Assuming the MPG-equivalent rating is properly designed to reflect total fuel burned to move the vehicle, I would expect electric power, per se, to roughly double the "MPG" of a given vehicle. The well-to-wheels efficiency for an EV is somewhere between 1X and 2X a normal gas car, depending of course on many factors. Some additional credit can be given for electricity generated by non-fossil-fuel sources, so 2X is a fair guess overall. On this basis, 50 MPGe for a full-size sedan, like the Tesla S, that would normally get 20ish, is actually doing pretty well. To get over 100 MPGe you need to get very radical with streamlining, ultralight design, and total efficiency. (To support this guesstimate, note that very few motorcycles, even small ones, get much over 50 MPG).

Pat Q

[bardofoc]

I agree with the concept that "cool" trumps "ugly" when it comes to selecting a vehicle. I think the Aptera is very ugly, but the main reason I like it so much is that it is so different than any other car out there. Another car I've been interested in is Peugeout's upcoming BB1, which I doubt will ever hit the American market unless its popularity explodes. That car is the ugliest I have ever seen (one person referred to it as a cross between the elephant man and a Yugo on Youtube, which I agree with), but I still think it is very cool. I just wish it could go faster. I will never buy an electric car designed in a conventional fashion. I mean, really, what's the point in that? I may as well buy the real thing and get the full horse power. I currently drive a Z3 that is over 10 years old, and I still get compliments on it from strangers. That is one thing I'll know I'll miss. I think the Aptera will garner comments for me as well, but they will not be so complimentary. They'll be like, "What the he** is that?" or "Cool. Is that a Jetsons car?" or "Are you an environmentalist?" instead of "Your car is beautiful."

[turbo wing]

Your right about the mpg on motorcycles, there are two reasons they are not getting good mileage, one is that believe it or not a motorcycle and rider are very dragy and I think the Aptera has far les drag for it size over the bike, the other is that bikes are generally made to make power so the engine is not all that efficient to start with,

I read some were that an all electric car in the X prize race will need to get the equivalent of about 130 mpg to compare with an all gas powered car at 100 mpg due to the carbon foot print when using coal to produce electricity, but what about were you use hydro dams to produce electricity, still a little fuzzy on all this.

[turbo wing]

Another car I've been interested in is Peugeout's upcoming BB1, ."


YIKES!!!! I just looked at the Peugeout's upcoming BB1 and holy cow this looks like a cross between the Zion and A smart car I think you should stay with the Z3 LOL
This is exactly what I was talking about earlier LOL, Every one has there own likes and dislikes for what ever the reason and so as long as the car is what the owner likes, really that's all that maters.
I thinks its great to have a variety of shapes and sizes of cars but in the end as we move forward we will have to find more aerodynamic shapes to make the best of energy consumption and with that I will say the BBI is not likely to get good mileage over 40 mph do to its large flat back

[turbo wing]

Just something to think about when deciding what type of EV best meets your needs
Remember the Smart car? when it was first introduced it was claimed to get 88 mpg, did you know that was only if you stayed below 50 mph anything beyond that and mpg dropped to below 50 mpg, the loss was directly related to the boxy shape ( lousy aerodynamics ) making this a bad choice if you spend much of your traveling time on the freeway, it would be ok if you stayed on city streets under 40 mph,
The Aptera, eVaro and other cars like these will give you great mpg at sustained higher speeds such as freeways and highways but in town they could be considered over kill because the sleek designs wont come into play until they go over 40 mph and up, However light weight vehicles can take full advantage of electric power at slow speeds were they get the best mileage, Look at the evaro for example ( I'm using this one for example because they are the only ones offering third party University verification ) you can contact them for the chart showing the different mileage at incremental speeds, at 70 plus mph they are getting 165 MPGe and in city driving starting at 20 mph they are as high as 332 MPGe so if all you want is a city car go light weight and electric and you will do ok, but if you do most of your driving on highways and freeways then you might want to take a close look at aerodynamics to get the beat mpg possible, The evaro was designed purposely for sustained high speed traveling and not necessarily something you would want to buy if you drive mostly in the city when a boxy design will do just as well as long as it has the same technologies under the hood and it weighs in at 2000 lbs or less.

[PatQ562]

There you go! Another good example of the "videogame" school of design. As noted, some like it, some don't. Under the lurid exterior is an ambitious but limited-mission concept car, 0-40mph in about 7 seconds, no mention of top speed, only 20HP but only 600kg (1320lbs) weight, using a tubular frame and carbon fiber bodywork, so urban performance promises to be sprightly. It does carry 4 people in an odd configuration (no floor pedals lets the driver be more upright). Range 120km (approx 85mi). This is indeed a good example of the "other extreme" relative to Aptera whose design is clearly targeted as a "freeway flyer" for suburban cities with room for normal size vehicle footprints.

We can suppose much of the BB1's quirkiness and non-standard controls would fall by the wayside on the way to production. The French have a limited-performance vehicle class, faster than our NEVs but less than full freeway speeds, that provides a market for innovative low-footprint cars. Peugeot also made a few hundred electric golf-car-class 3-wheel urban cars during WW2 for postal use and other essentials when there was no gasoline.

Is "Zion" supposed to be "Scion" as in Xb (the boxy microvan)? I obtained a 2006 Xb (the last of the original design) in refrigerator white to emphasize its resemblance to a runaway deep freezer. It's proved to be a happy car, with sprightly performance, useful versatility, and no problems, returning about 30mpg which isn't bad for its frontal area. The newer model gained 600 lbs, but mine is under 2500 lbs which passes for light, these days.

Pat Q

[rayfellow]

There you go! Another good example of the "videogame" school of design. As noted, some like it, some don't. Under the lurid exterior is an ambitious but limited-mission concept car, 0-40mph in about 7 seconds, no mention of top speed, only 20HP but only 600kg (1320lbs) weight, using a tubular frame and carbon fiber bodywork, so urban performance promises to be sprightly. It does carry 4 people in an odd configuration (no floor pedals lets the driver be more upright). Range 120km (approx 85mi). This is indeed a good example of the "other extreme" relative to Aptera whose design is clearly targeted as a "freeway flyer" for suburban cities with room for normal size vehicle footprints.

We can suppose much of the BB1's quirkiness and non-standard controls would fall by the wayside on the way to production. The French have a limited-performance vehicle class, faster than our NEVs but less than full freeway speeds, that provides a market for innovative low-footprint cars. Peugeot also made a few hundred electric golf-car-class 3-wheel urban cars during WW2 for postal use and other essentials when there was no gasoline.

Is "Zion" supposed to be "Scion" as in Xb (the boxy microvan)? I obtained a 2006 Xb (the last of the original design) in refrigerator white to emphasize its resemblance to a runaway deep freezer. It's proved to be a happy car, with sprightly performance, useful versatility, and no problems, returning about 30mpg which isn't bad for its frontal area. The newer model gained 600 lbs, but mine is under 2500 lbs which passes for light, these days.

Pat Q

One of the reviews I saw said 50 mph top speed... 75 mile range. 6 hour to charge... All quite vague. There is no mention of the battery size. To be truly useful -even in an urban setting - it should be freeway friendly (say 70 mph). Otherwise, it's a NEV... but just a bit faster.

[PatQ562]

One of the reviews I saw said 50 mph top speed... 75 mile range. 6 hour to charge... All quite vague. There is no mention of the battery size. To be truly useful -even in an urban setting - it should be freeway friendly (say 70 mph). Otherwise, it's a NEV... but just a bit faster.

Agreed! 50mph seems like a reasonable attainment for its power and drag, but we would certainly want more in California. A 6-hr recharge at European domestic current limits (230V, 16A) implies a 22kW-hr max battery which might be a little high, but assuming top speed requires most of the power, ie 15-20HP (12-16kW) at 50mph, a 50 mile range would imply a 12-16kWhr battery, and the full 75mi range would imply 18-24kW-hr, so the numbers sorta add up. A moderately optimistic lithium battery at 160wHr/kg would thereby weigh 100-150kg (220-330lbs), which seems like a reasonable percentage of vehicle weight.

By the way, there is a significant overhead in packaging batteries in stacks, for cooling, termination and safe accident mounting, so take these numbers with a grain of salt.

In contrast we have heard vague reports that Aptera's battery would be somewhere between 12kW-hr to 22kW-hr. It is reasonable to suppose that their slippery shape could maintain 70mph with 6-10kW of power, so the promised "100 mi range" could be delivered with 9-15kWhr of energy, leaving some on the table for extended battery life and reserve range. My EV1's best run was 140 miles at about 60-65, with one moderate grade coming and going, using about 25kWhr, implying a consumption somewhat higher than 10kW at freeway speed, which is reasonably consistent with the lowest road power I have seen of about 10HP at 60mph. It was my hope that an even more streamlined vehicle of about half the weight could cut this by perhaps 40%, reducing such a trip to 15kW-hr, thus requiring about 220-330lb of lithium battery rather than the 1050-lb NiMH pack in the EV1.

Such are dreams made out of.

Pat Q

[turbo wing]

According to the rules, all of these hopefuls are supposed to have a business plan for building 10,000 units (or some such number)




The business plane you mentioned is a two fold obligation, First the B/P needs to show the validity of the design all the way thru to production to prove it is a viable concept and production of your design is possible, you actually don't have to go into production but you have to prove it is viable .

The second part is once you submit your plan you can not make any changes to your car, for example if your B/P shows the use of 10 kilowatt hours of lead acid batteries once your plan has been submitted you can not change them to 15 kilowatts of lithium batteries half way along the way before or after the race starts, once your B/P has been accepted by the X prize Organization your locked in, I noticed the Aptera is listed as hybrid so did they submit a B/P showing the use of an onboard generator and if so now that they went to front wheel drive were will they put a generator, dose this mean they will try to race with out the generator only to be disqualified?

[speculawyer]

What happen in the x-prize 'race'? I thought it was this year?

[Tlee]

Turbo-wing,

Your grammar and spelling is much better than before. I hope you don’t mind a few more hints to correct some common mistakes made consistently in your posts. The plural possessive is ‘their’ not ‘there. The contraction of ‘you are’ is ‘you’re’ not ‘your’. And ‘where’ is not spelled ‘were’.

[KarenRei]

Tlee,
" your grammer and spelling ARE not is much better" but who cares if the message is clear

While we're in nitpicking mode, "Your grammar and spelling are not much better."

:)

[butter]

Also, I would suggest that "grammar and spelling" can certainly be considered one subject (as it's often used paired up that way to refer to someone's language usage -- like "couple" can be singular as well as plural in the same context) and thus "is" would perfectly suffice.

[Tanquen2]

While we're in nitpicking mode: "Your grammar and spelling are not much better."

:)

[mmalc]

From today's newsletter:

So when the team looked at [the details of the X-Prize rules etc.] objectively, we found that we could test our vehicles, get a fresh eye's view of our technology, and compete in the competition all in one fell swoop. It is a win-win-win. So like I said, we are going for it. And there may even be a way for you to get involved....Stay tuned!

[1051]

And it will be a 2H.

[Rat]

While we're in nitpicking mode: "Your grammar and spelling are not much better."
Your Grandma and Tori Spelling are not much better. :)

[turbo wing]

So as we move on from all this grammar and spelling crap dose any one know for sure what the Aptera's rang on batteries alone really is, can the Apter go 100 miles at 60 mph without recharging, One of the X prize events for the alternative class

[Apt3448]

So as we move on from all this grammar and spelling crap dose any one know for sure what the Aptera's rang on batteries alone really is, can the Apter go 100 miles at 60 mph without recharging, One of the X prize events for the alternative class
Who knows for sure? But we have been told time and again 100 miles per charge, at normal highway speed, with 2 people, luggage, all electronics running, so if true, the requirement should not pose a problem. The last reference I found (but there may be others) was in the German autobild report. I translated the german voice-over of Steve explaining:

http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=38325&postcount=7

"with a single charge one can drive 100 miles. And that is not with slow city driving, but with normal highway speed of about 120 kmh, occupied by two people, 125 kg luggage, running air conditioner, and headlights on"

120 kmh equals 75 mph.
Hope that helps.

[turbo wing]

Thanks Apt3448 I noticed many manufacturers reporting rang and mpg based on kilowatt hours in there battery pack and based on the energy draw of the motor however most mathematical calculations turn out to be far from reality so has Aptera actually got real numbers from drive tests and do they have any third party validity, I'm just curious

[Apt3448]

Thanks Apt3448 I noticed many manufacturers reporting rang and mpg based on kilowatt hours in there battery pack and based on the energy draw of the motor however most mathematical calculations turn out to be far from reality so has Aptera actually got real numbers from drive tests and do they have any third party validity, I'm just curious

They have been driving the various PP models (displayed at the X-prize show) long enough to know from experience, that I do not doubt. Third party conformation? The X-prize events would be, to the best of my knowledge, the first actual public validation. So the X-prize will be a great way of cutting through the BS of any and all of the contenders and see what it really amounts to.

[turbo wing]

Do you know how many kilowatt hour battery pack is in the Aptera?

[PatQ562]

According to the still available brochure for the car we didn't get a year ago, 10-13kWhr. According to my memory at some point in some thread, 22kWhr, which is what a lot of the other players have.

Readers will recall the idea was to make a car capable of traveling more than 100 miles at freeway speeds on a small battery, so it can be easily recharged on ordinary wall current. For the stipulated 8 hr recharge, at the UL limit of 1500 watts, that would be 12kWhr.

Pat Q

[Apt3448]

According to the still available brochure for the car we didn't get a year ago, 10-13kWhr. According to my memory at some point in some thread, 22kWhr, which is what a lot of the other players have.

Readers will recall the idea was to make a car capable of traveling more than 100 miles at freeway speeds on a small battery, so it can be easily recharged on ordinary wall current. For the stipulated 8 hr recharge, at the UL limit of 1500 watts, that would be 12kWhr.

Pat Q
I don't remember numbers that as large as 22, but the brochure numbers might be low. Indeed, charging demands at 115 are a limiting factor. As the vehicle has to be under 1700 Lbs to remain a motorcycle, and has amazing aero (even after mirror and windows), I doubt it will need that 22kWhr, and I doubt that 22kWhr would keep the weight under 1700 Lbs.

[rayfellow]

I don't remember numbers that as large as 22, but the brochure numbers might be low. Indeed, charging demands at 115 are a limiting factor. As the vehicle has to be under 1700 Lbs to remain a motorcycle, and has amazing aero (even after mirror and windows), I doubt it will need that 22kWhr, and I doubt that 22kWhr would keep the weight under 1700 Lbs.

Originally the Aptera specs quoted a 6 to 8 kWh use at 60 mph. If you want a 100 mile range, you would need about a 13 kWh battery. If you allow for an 80% DoD you would want a 16 or 17 kWh battery capacity. A 22KwH battery would give you a 75% DoD. In reality - 70 MPH speed, loaded up and hills - a 22 kWh battery seems to leave slack for a comfortable 100 plus mile range.

[turbo wing]

I heard the eVaro is using a 14hr kilowatt pack and it only weighs 286 lbs, they say it will take the car about 120 miles and only take 3 hours to charge on 220 volts, and apparently the 20 kilowatt onboard generator will charge it up in under 2 hours, I'm still looking into this

[wcabdefense]

The info they emailed me shows:
21KWH Pack
800HP
1400 torque-ft/lbs
275MPGe City/165 Hwy
1300 lbs weight
90-125 electric range/serial hybrid with gas generator
0-60 <5 seconds
Price~43K

If you can get past the tandem seating, I think it looks like a decent package.

[turbo wing]

At SEMA this year my buddy was talking to the FVT team about the tandem verses side by side issue and they told him that after the tandem concept goes into production they already have a side by side version in the works looking the same as the evaro but with a wider fuselage,
They told him that this is a niche market that is more a global then a North American market and in many other countries it is well received as a tandem and it is only in the US that people make an issue of the tandem seating, As a global market includes left and right hand driving it is a real advantage for them in production because they don't have to absorb the higher cost of left and right hand production,
The reason there is a split in the X prize from tandem to side by side is because the tandem has an obvious advantage over side by side in efficiency and FVT is trying to get the best they can while including high performance, this is something no one ells has done before that I am aware of, the FVT concept is interesting

Also FVT is developing leading edge technology for there drive train and plan on selling or licensing the complete package to other manufacturers to be installed in cars and trucks at the production level, My buddy was shown a picture of there new generator and said its really cool and will fit just about anywhere, they have made there own motor and it will produce 20 kilowatts so they can recharge the batteries while driving, it puts out twice as much power as the car uses at 60 mph so even when driving on long trips the generator will cycle rather then run the hole time like the Volt

[NeilBlanchard]

Well, maybe that chassis we saw in the last newsletter will (have to?) be the X-Prize vehicle?

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/01/automotive-x-prize-competition-at-detroit-auto-show.php

The do-or-die date is April 26...