Any love for NON ev tadpoles? Elio Motors

[JustWilliam]

In a previous thread (Nissan Leaf as Aptera alternative? REALLY? http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=3669) I tried to gauge the level of enthusiasm for Aptera's actual configuration as an ultralight, ultra aero reverse trike (or "tadpole"). I even went so far as to take pure EV propulsion OUT of the equation, as the premise was to compare platforms and configurations. The thread evolved into a Nissan Leaf thread, and at one point there was more discussion about the Leaf among Aptera "fans" on ApteraForum than there was on the Leaf's own forum. It was great, even humbling, to see the thread take on a life of it's own, but almost NONE of the posts ever acknowledged the original premise of the thread. Worse, it became clear early on that a significant proportion of Aptera's biggest "fans" could be more accurately described as pure ev fans and early adopters. They were primarily interested in comparing battery packs and production dates, and the Leaf's extra doors, seating capacity, and over-all more mainstream demeanor was far more valuable than Aptera's radical approach of true efficiency from the ground up. If so many of Aptera's biggest fans think of it's remarkable "form follows function" design as "pretty" or "exotic" at best, it would appear to have almost ZERO chance of meeting the required sales production numbers to make it a viable business proposition.

So what do forum members think of the proposed "Elio" from Elio Motors? (http://www.eliomotors.com/index.html) The vehicle aims to approach the "tadpole" configuration as ultra efficient and ultra AFFORDABLE with an ICE. It is less than lovely to be sure, but is anyone interested in the proposed specs? Front wheel drive, 5 star crash rating, 75+MPG, and a price under $7500.00?

Myers Motors and it's Duo have a few fans amongst us, though many have derided it for it's cost vs. technology ratio. Does the Elio as proposed make a better case for it's existence? Are there any Aptera fans who would even CONSIDER a ICE alternative?

Testify!

[SEGsby]

I'm always a little suspicious when their are so few images of the vehicle, and the "Select Color" page is just cloned, colorized copies of the same image, badly comped onto a gradient background. That screams low budget to me.

And after looking at the contact page that has the (seemingly hidden) front on shot of the machine... Ungh, its just got too high of a fugly factor for me to consider it. Those insect-like eye headlamps on the sides are awful.

The low, flat bottom of the machine seems like it would have to not have any form of comfortable suspension in it. And there were no interior shots, or views of cargo space, etc..

Sorry. Too small, too fugly. No room for cellos or segways... :(

[Scott]

If they actually hit that price point, it would serve admirably as a very inexpensive commuter that could reasonably be supplanted by a second car for cello-hauling.

It costs what a moderately priced motorcycle does, without having to go through the hassle of armoring up in the morning or freezing your tuckus off (and gets better mileage). (I have a motorcycle to offset my inefficient SUV and pickup, but I don't ride it for those reasons.)

I'd rather have an Aptera-shaped ICE than this, but <$7,500 versus <$40,000 is a *big* difference.

On the other hand, I have my doubts that it could be produced as described; if it could though, I'd think about it. Yet another to add to my "watch" list.

[palmer_md]

On the other hand, I have my doubts that it could be produced as described; if it could though, I'd think about it. Yet another to add to my "watch" list.

I agree. for that price I'd be interested, but don't believe they will be able to do it.

[Bajajim]

Yeah, at that price and with that mileage I would consider it...

[Dolphyn]

Based on the contact page image, it looks like a one-seater, which will limit its appeal for a lot of people.

They've spent $120,000 (http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?lname=Elio+Motors+LLC&year=2009) for lobbying efforts?!

[PatQ562]

I freely admit I AM an EV fan, but realistic about its early-adopter cost premium. The Elio reminds me a bit of certain 2CV "Torpedo body" conversions pursued by enterprising Britons. With such a scheme, the low-tech air cooled 2CV could probably advance from its typical 33-35mpg well into the 40's. The 2CV was a reliable and well-sorted platform after its decades of production, but note that modern compact cars can meet or beat its mileage and performance despite twice the weight and having modern conveniences, so the 75mpg figure is not inherently absurb, IF the engine is indeed of fully modern design and the vehicle is focused on efficiency.

Others have noted that the Elio presentation is so far, very thin even for vaporware, but setting this aside - yes, if they started shipping, and I could drive one, and it wasn't a lawnmower powered death trap, I'd probably give it a whirl at such a low price. But I would want it to be as clean as current regulated automobiles, not to mention having some sense of safety, both of which are tall orders for a startup.

Aptera seemed to have a chance because they chose electric propulsion (solves the emissions and vibration problems) and could focus on designing a decent and reasonably safe vehicle. Despite better than average funding, they appear to be stalled short of delivery.

The history of automobiles is littered with short-lived "cycle cars", various permutations of "enclosed motorcycles" (or even not-so-enclosed as per the one long-lived exception, Morgan). Their noise and general cheapness seems to lose its charm and the customer base moves on to "real" cars as soon as they can afford to. China and India are swarming with "cabin scooters", 3-wheel "tuk tuks" using smoky motorcycle technology and a flimsy enclosed cabin to keep you dry (more or less). Tata's Nano seeks to capture this $1000-$1500 customer and move them up to their $2500 Nano, with real doors, glass, 4-seats, some semblence of emission control, etc.

Note the incredible cheapness of these vehicles. There is an "obvious" profit opportunity to import them at a reasonably markup and sell them if only on a novelty basis. HOWEVER: we have strict emissions and safety regulations to get through, and even with the 3-wheel loophole, if volume ever became significant, crackdowns would follow (hence the need for serious lobbying - and $120K is just a drop in the bucket). But even more, what about the challenge of building a dealer and support network? Volkswagen became the first successful European import because they patiently built a nationwide dealer network around a very focused but usable vehicle. Many others couldn't/wouldn't go the distance.

Back to Aptera: despite my pessimism regarding "cycle cars", the Aptera seemed to have a chance to break the mold. New, smooth-running green propulsion technology "whose time has come", encapsulated in a vehicle whose shape's efficiency is obvious to all, love it or not. Their brand recognition would be incredible, and the conservation angle, if coupled with a car that actually satisfies a daily driver, could become a once-a-generation vehicular landmark.

Pat Q

[JustWilliam]

Thanks everybody! I was really concerned that I might get a cold or possibly negative response, but all of you really make great points and it's sweet to gather opinions.

Elio has been on my watch list since August when I looked into who was lobbying strongly for tadpoles as a transportation alternative worthy of funding. It would be HUGE to a start-up like Aptera, who should have seen investment before Tesla or Fisker in my mind. Dolphyn is absolutely correct- Elio spent a TON of cash lobbying and are mentioned right alongside Aptera in their efforts. On the PR front they have been incredibly low key. One single webpage became the three or so pages we have today, and they do a bare minimum of press releases. The word on various tadpole forums, is that by using the "contact us" option, you will get a friendly and prompt response from a Mr. Chip Stempeck, VP of Marketing and Sales. Not surprisingly, they feel they have "the next big thing", the design is close to final, and they are just waiting for funding. Optimists are of the opinion that Elio are the antithesis of vaporware- a near production vehicle from a start-up that isn't taking deposits and want's to keep a minimal profile until funding and production plans are in place. Detractors, well- they don't believe any of it. Who can blame them?

So in essence, Chip Stempeck says, "As a quick overview, we have created a vehicle that seats two in tandem that will exceed every existing car in mileage and overall value. We will start out with a gas powered vehicle, available in manual and automatic transmission, and move to other technologies as soon as the they become more reliable and affordable to the masses. We are committed to making a safe vehicle, one that will stand up to the upcoming changes in occupant safety. On top of that, this car will be fun to drive and afford the owner a chance to really make it his or her own. Over 70 mpg, 5-star, and less than $7500."

"The reality is that if a start-up company doesn’t get funded, it doesn’t go. We are all too aware of that and are trying to manage the flow of information to the consumer until we get closer. That is one of the reasons we did such a slow roll on the website. We want to avoid the messes that some of our competitors have created by coming out too early, without a price, and then being late before ever delivering a vehicle. We have a plan, of which all of our suppliers have signed off on, to be in production in record time.Keep the faith, I know I will, and I’ll keep you posted. Chip Stempeck".

The vehicle is indeed homely and insect-like, but so were the Citroen 2cv and VW Beetle. IF (mighty IF) they can attain their specs and price, they might have a market beyond wet cold motorcyclists and minimalists and sell in sustainable niche numbers.

They definitely have my attention anyway!

[PatQ562]

I respect a company that keeps a low profile until they really have something, but if they really have a "design" of any meaningful sort, then all dimensions, and even weight, should be known. Don't they have TARGETS before starting their engineering work? I get very impatient with a lack of such information, because it implies they DON'T have a real design, just a concept. The magic words "specifications subject to change" lets us know there may be revisions, but at least we know what the goal is.

Aptera too has failed to publish specs, but in their case, we are told the design is in flux. So although I am impatient with them too, at least we have been given some general targets in the past.

In both cases there's little to lose by publishing numerical targets, as it's not like major auto companies are ready to pounce on their concepts and "steal their ideas". Publishing actual specs adds credibility even if they change over time.

Pat Q

[byplug]

I respect a company that keeps a low profile until they really have something, but if they really have a "design" of any meaningful sort, then all dimensions, and even weight, should be known. Don't they have TARGETS before starting their engineering work? I get very impatient with a lack of such information, because it implies they DON'T have a real design, just a concept. The magic words "specifications subject to change" lets us know there may be revisions, but at least we know what the goal is.

Aptera too has failed to publish specs, but in their case, we are told the design is in flux. So although I am impatient with them too, at least we have been given some general targets in the past.

In both cases there's little to lose by publishing numerical targets, as it's not like major auto companies are ready to pounce on their concepts and "steal their ideas". Publishing actual specs adds credibility even if they change over time.

Pat Q

I agree with you..
"Publishing actual specs adds credibility even if they change over time."

....so to keep things on a positive note.....Aptera has indeed published specs for the Aptera 2009 2e.

These specs are tucked away in a brochure element on their web site and has been presented as a folded paper printed piece as well (I have two of them). It is a cover with 3 information pages.

... you will find dimensions, weight and more. The magic words "specifications subject to change" are found in the lower right corners listed as "Content is subject to change without notice. v1.6"

...the specs are live, on their web site right now located here:

http://aptera.com/brochure/APTERA_2009_2E_BROCHURE.pdf

[PatQ562]

Byplug correctly points to the long-available Aptera brochure, which does indeed give the kind of specs one generally needs to draw conclusions. For example, the rather minimal "10-13kWhr" battery pack is all you can have if you want to charge from 120V in 8 hrs (8 x 1500 watts UL limit = 12kW-hr). The cited range assumes they can do 60mph at 5-6kW which is POSSIBLE with a super-efficient design (this is about half the rate of the EV1, but weight target is half, frontal area is reduced, and Cd improved, so it's POSSIBLE. If this all holds up, then the battery capacity can be half of the EV1, which was about 25-30kWhr in NiMH. The motor and gearset specs reflect the Azure Dynamics package identified quite a while back.

The problem is, these are the specs for the OLD Aptera, the one everyone hoped to get a year ago. Since then, we had hints of many changes before the Wall of Silence descended. Still, this brochure is a model of what a serious contender should be publishing.

Thanks for reminding us of this.

Pat Q