eVaro

[wcabdefense]

Future Vehicle Technologies (FVT) is taking Retail Investors at 10K intervals. If the eVaro makes it to market, that could be a really big payoff. The vehicle goes about 100 miles just on charge and has effectively unlimited range with an onboard gas generator. It should be comparable in price to the Volt, and has acceleration similar to the Tesla. I think it embodies most of what the Aptera 2h would aim for, with better acceleration. I drive alone 90% of the time, so the tandem passenger seat just puts more space between a rear-end collision and my rear end. I think it has EVERYTHING that I would want in a Hybrid: High MPGe, reasonable price, and sexy acceleration. I don't see much compromise.

[randyd]

But the seating is not side-by-side. That classifies it as a single-seater to me.

P.S. I like your License!:happy0025:

[Aptera#1434]

I'm seriously looking at taking a trip to their facility. I've been corresponding to their marketing guy and I have an invite. Vehicle is a beautiful design.

I don't mind the tandem seating. It's similar to the VW L1 style seating. I think the public just isn't used to this seating arrangement.

New design ideas take time to accept.

[bardofoc]

I still cant get over how cool this vehicle looks. It has a sporty and aggressive appeaL that I like in my cars. Do you know of any options that might be available? Like mp3 player, or rearview camera, or climate control like Aptera?

[wcabdefense]

Take a look around and see if FVT is not placing concrete plans into motion. They are also creating proprietary systems that they can license to other vehicle manufacturers, providing additional sources of revenue while other companies enter the market.

http://futurevehicletechnologies.com/index.html

[wcabdefense]

The info they emailed me shows:
21KWH Pack
800HP
1400 torque-ft/lbs
275MPGe City/165 Hwy
1300 lbs weight
90-125 electric range/serial hybrid with gas generator
0-60 <5 seconds
Price~43K

If you can get past the tandem seating, I think it looks like a decent package.

[Aptera#1434]

FVT wrote me back:
(Mike Zimmerman @ FVT said ok to post)

"Hello again Steve and Friends:

As a subscriber to our newsletter, you will be kept up to date with our progress and where-about, having said that there are no tours planned prior to the actual competition(XPrize).

We will have a small R&D operation in Maples Ridge BC Canada where we build and develope our prototype vehicles, pre-arranged visits are possible, actual factory will be post XPrize.

FYI, we are busy building our fourth improved prototype for the competition. It has an even better drive train, with proprietary technologies and lots of bells and whistles like AC, retractable canopy, better vision and comfort for the passenger, two trunks, etc.

We are really excited about what we are doing and the great support we get from folks like yourself, we thank you for your support.

On closing, there still are investment packages available, for those that can, and want to join our journey.

From the FVT Team, wish you the best in 2010.

Cheers, Mike

Director of Logistics/Investor Relations"
-------------------------------------------

I've been emailing with Mike a few times over the holidays. The company seems to be quite communicative.

[wcabdefense]

I am thinking that licensing the proprietary technologies is a second income stream that will benefit the company, aside from putting cars on the road. We all know that EV and Hybrid are the future. Licensing great technology to the lazy larger manufacturers is the way to leverage the R&D to greater profit. Think windshield wiper or lap/shoulder belt.:doublethumbs:

[wcabdefense]

"FVT Motors has an alliance with Steve Saleen of SMS Engineering (makers of the Saleen S-7, the Ford GT40 and the Saleen Mustang) to certify, homologate and produce the first run of eVaro’s in his new facility in California."

I like the way that sounds. :happy0005:

[KarenRei]

Really? That's interesting. That's the sort of thing that could actually help get investors. Maybe.

[aptera1213]

two trunks?

[evmavin]

The info they emailed me shows:
21KWH Pack
800HP
1400 torque-ft/lbs
275MPGe City/165 Hwy
1300 lbs weight
90-125 electric range/serial hybrid with gas generator
0-60 <5 seconds
Price~43K

If you can get past the tandem seating, I think it looks like a decent package.



800HP? Really, what exactly is generating 800HP? Looks like an air cooled AC bus motor to me, like and AC55 or larger. And 1400 torgue-ft/lbs? Even if that were true it's not going to that real wheel or a FWD setup on that box frame. These specifications are completely unrealistic. That motor alone must be over 250 lbs! Notice the FAQ does not address any real questions.

[SEGsby]

Hmm, any crash testing done on this puppy yet? :tongue0014:

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's a picture of the FVT:
http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss202/BonanderRoss/ale023.jpg
It does not appear to have much of a belly pan:
http://www.futurevehicletechnologies.com/assets/images/evaro-jenset-008.jpg
Does it have an onboard generator? If so, it is a serial hybrid, I guess.

[wcabdefense]

You would guess correctly, Neil. The battery runs the car, and the generator tops off the battery. The generator is supposed to recharge the battery in 1 hour if you are not near a plug. Not the ideal situation, idling for an hour to charge, but comforting to know that you can.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Why can't you drive it during that hour? That sounds like a fairly fast charge, so it would seem to be able to at least drive at a reduced speed.

Also, the second seat looks to be pretty darn cramped -- low headroom, and legs straddling the driver's seat. A 1+1?

I'd like to know more about this fuel vaporizing, and the engine the eVaro uses. And I really like the quote they have on their web page:

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world.
Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

[wcabdefense]

I suppose you could after a few minutes, once you generated a small buffer charge. It sounds like the generator exceeds the usual energy expenditure while driving at normal speed, so you would have a net charge gain. In the absence of drag racing, obviously.

[turbo wing]

800HP? Really, what exactly is generating 800HP? Looks like an air cooled AC bus motor to me, like and AC55 or larger. And 1400 torgue-ft/lbs? Even if that were true it's not going to that real wheel or a FWD setup on that box frame. These specifications are completely unrealistic. That motor alone must be over 250 lbs! Notice the FAQ does not address any real questions.


I saw there first prototype electric car with a small generator, it used an AC 55 coupled to an Eclipse rear diff for front wheel drive, they used an Azure dynamics controller, this was all just for testing. the new evaro has two custom made DC permanent magnet motors driving the front wheels, no diff and no transmission, at 600 amps there good for 2000 ft lbs of torque combined, I think the new evaro is going fly :)

[Aptera#1434]

I saw there first prototype electric car with a small generator, it used an AC 55 coupled to an Eclipse rear diff for front wheel drive, they used an Azure dynamics controller, this was all just for testing. the new evaro has two custom made DC permanent magnet motors driving the front wheels, no diff and no transmission, at 600 amps there good for 2000 ft lbs of torque combined, I think the new evaro is going fly :)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow. Impressive. The more I hear about the eVaro, the more excited I get about it. I reminds me of how I used to feel about the Aptera.

[turbo wing]

Hi,

Why can't you drive it during that hour? That sounds like a fairly fast charge, so it would seem to be able to at least drive at a reduced speed.




Neil
Yes the generator is computer controlled to come on while driving when needed and will run as long as is needed to top off the batteries, the new evaro has a 20 kilowatt generator designed to charge the batteries while driving at seeds over 70 mph, if the evaro is using 12 kilowatts at 70 mph and the generator is putting out 20 then your ahead by 8 which means on long trips the generator can cycle on and off keeping your batteries topped off at sustained high speeds, now that is cool,

[KarenRei]

I just can't get excited over it. The first thing that turns me off when I look at it is all of the pointless styling flair. After being so excited over the Aptera which forgoes flair for function, I look at this and just go "ugh". The second thing that hits me is that plastic canopy door. There is no part of "plastic canopy door" that I like. The third thing that hits me is how little space there is inside, both for people and for gear. The fourth thing that hits me is how little focus there seems to be on safety. And the fifth thing that hits me is how little budget they have, which screams to me "kit car".

Don't get me wrong; I wish them the best. But I just can't get excited about this thing.

[turbo wing]

I just can't get excited over it. The first thing that turns me off when I look at it is all of the pointless styling flair. After being so excited over the Aptera which forgoes flair for function, I look at this and just go "ugh". The second thing that hits me is that plastic canopy door. There is no part of "plastic canopy door" that I like. The third thing that hits me is how little space there is inside, both for people and for gear. The fourth thing that hits me is how little focus there seems to be on safety. And the fifth thing that hits me is how little budget they have, which screams to me "kit car".

Don't get me wrong; I wish them the best. But I just can't get excited about this thing.

just my thoughts based on some of many conversations with the FVT gang

KarenRei said: I just can't get excited over it. The first thing that turns me off when I look at it is all of the pointless styling flair. turbowing said I was told that the style or design was based completely on aerodynamics and while trying to make a slippery body to fit around the needed mechanics this is how it turned out, kind of like trying to make a fast aeroplane, styling is secondary to function After being so excited over the Aptera which forgoes flair for function, I look at this and just go "ugh". The second thing that hits me is that plastic canopy door. its only the canopy that's plastic and its no different then a convertible however it dose have safety in mind with three role bars and side impact structure, you have to remember that once it goes into production it will be completely re-engineered for production and this includes being crash worthy certified or it wont make it to the road There is no part of "plastic canopy door" that I like. the actual door is a carbon fibber/civiler fabricated peace with a chrome molly side impact bar that locks in place once the door is closed, this car is likely safer then the Aptera as if you do take a side impact your protected by the fender long before the fuselage gets hit, did you know that industry standards allow for 18 inches of side impact penetration, half of this on the evaro is in side fender so I think that goes in its favour The third thing that hits me is how little space there is inside, both for people and for gear. yes the back seat aint great but I hear the new one has plenty of room and bigger windows for the back seat as well as the canopy over the driver now slides back like an electric sun roof, also this car will take two people and two sets of golf clubs as well as three shopping carts worth of groceries, not bad for its cramped looking design The fourth thing that hits me is how little focus there seems to be on safety. And the fifth thing that hits me is how little budget they have, which screams to me "kit car". I can assure you it is not nor will ever be a kit car :)

[evmavin]

I just can't get excited over it. The first thing that turns me off when I look at it is all of the pointless styling flair. After being so excited over the Aptera which forgoes flair for function, I look at this and just go "ugh". The second thing that hits me is that plastic canopy door. There is no part of "plastic canopy door" that I like. The third thing that hits me is how little space there is inside, both for people and for gear. The fourth thing that hits me is how little focus there seems to be on safety. And the fifth thing that hits me is how little budget they have, which screams to me "kit car".

Don't get me wrong; I wish them the best. But I just can't get excited about this thing.


Yes, it screams kit car and it sounds like they are using DC motors for power at a lower cost. I don't see this thing going anywhere as even a low volume production car and once the final price and specs are listed it will not be attractive. It looks very unsafe.

[turbo wing]

Yes, it screams kit car and it sounds like they are using DC motors for power at a lower cost. I don't see this thing going anywhere as even a low volume production car and once the final price and specs are listed it will not be attractive. It looks very unsafe.

In case you haven't kept up, twin custom made DC motors cost five times what an AC motor cost and DC is over 95% efficient compared to 85% efficient for AC motors

[evmavin]

just my thoughts based on some of many conversations with the FVT gang

I just can't get excited over it. The first thing that turns me off when I look at it is all of the pointless styling flair. I was told that the style or design was based completely on aerodynamics and while trying to make a slippery body to fit around the needed mechanics this is how it turned out, kind of like trying to make a fast aeroplane, styling is secondary to function After being so excited over the Aptera which forgoes flair for function, I look at this and just go "ugh". The second thing that hits me is that plastic canopy door. its only the canopy that's plastic and its no different then a convertible however it dose have safety in mind with three role bars and side impact structure, you have to remember that once it goes into production it will be completely re-engineered for production and this includes being crash worthy certified or it wont make it to the road There is no part of "plastic canopy door" that I like. the actual door is a carbon fibber/civiler fabricated peace with a chrome molly side impact bar that locks in place once the door is closed, this car is likely safer then the Aptera as if you do take a side impact your protected by the fender long before the fuselage gets hit, did you know that industry standards allow for 18 inches of side impact penetration, half of this on the evaro is in side fender so I think that goes in its favour The third thing that hits me is how little space there is inside, both for people and for gear. yes the back seat aint great but I hear the new one has plenty of room and bigger windows for the back seat as well as the canopy over the driver now slides back like an electric sun roof, also this car will take two people and two sets of golf clubs as well as three shopping carts worth of groceries, not bad for its cramped looking design The fourth thing that hits me is how little focus there seems to be on safety. And the fifth thing that hits me is how little budget they have, which screams to me "kit car". I can assure you it is not nor will ever be a kit car :)


It may not be a fit car but it is constructed like one, and will look and feel like one on the inside. All of these tube frame cars are the result of low production design and low capital investment. These are very limited production vehicles like the many ICE cars made the same way. Best of luck to them but based on the construction used, I don't see it lasting in the market.

[turbo wing]

It may not be a fit car but it is constructed like one, and will look and feel like one on the inside. All of these tube frame cars are the result of low production design and low capital investment. These are very limited production vehicles like the many ICE cars made the same way. Best of luck to them but based on the construction used, I don't see it lasting in the market.


I know what your saying but the tube frame car you see in the web pictures are only the prototype, the new evaro is made the same way the Aptera is made, it has no steel frame and is 100% carbon fibber/civiler with some aluminum motor mount and front suspension mounting peaces, plus the chrome molly tube in the door

[KarenRei]

I was told that the style or design was based completely on aerodynamics and while trying to make a slippery body to fit around the needed mechanics this is how it turned out, kind of like trying to make a fast aeroplane, styling is secondary to function

http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/fvt-evaro-front-quarter_100225890_s.jpg

That is not "based completely on aerodynamics". Yes, aerodynamics is definitely playing a role in the design -- the tapered rear, low cross-section, and shrouded rear wheel being examples. But that V-shaped front-end, oversized ground-hugging air intakes, and stylized fenders are not there for aero. They're for aesthetics, and it annoys me.

its only the canopy that's plastic

That's what I said.

and its no different then a convertible

Convertible windows are automotive safety glass and are not canopy doors.

however it dose have safety in mind with three role bars and side impact structure,

First off, it's not just about safety. Plastic is a "cheap" building material. It has inferior greenhouse properties and degrades much more rapidly than glass. It even feels cheap. Ever looked out the window of a commercial jet? That's what your windshield will look like after a few years of road debris.

As for safety, there's a single bar across the top, on a low-to-the-ground (i.e., easy for something to end up on top of you) vehicle. Good luck with that. :P

you have to remember that once it goes into production it will be completely re-engineered for production and this includes being crash worthy certified or it wont make it to the road

It certainly will need to be :P As it stands, I'm not impressed.

the actual door is a carbon fibber/civiler fabricated peace with a chrome molly side impact bar that locks in place once the door is closed

There's such a small amount of room between the driver and the road, there's almost no give allowable. That's not a good thing.

Also, don't forget the whole "canopy door" part. Canopy doors by their nature have countless problems. They tend to let in too much sun, meaning too much heating. They tend to let rain in. They can trap you if you roll (and on a light, narrow vehicle, that's a very high likelyhood). They tend not to be as structurally sound. There's just all sorts of problems with them.

if you do take a side impact your protected by the fender long before the fuselage gets hit

Assuming that what hits you is the size of the eVaro :P Most car front ends will be perfectly lined up with your head, not the fender (except at the very front, where the wheel is). And this thing will slide under most vehicles like they're not even there.

Lastly, I have very little confidence that such a low-budget company will turn out a safe product. The onus is on them to show otherwise. With that canopy, they *especially* need to show roof crush testing.

did you know that industry standards allow for 18 inches of side impact penetration

18" with a direct hit on the cabin would mean halfway through your head.

also this car will take two people and two sets of golf clubs as well as three shopping carts worth of groceries

I call BS on that.

http://www.cargurus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/sema-evaro-06.jpg

There's no way you can seat two people, two sets of golf clubs, and three shopping cars of groceries in that. I doubt you could fit one person and two shopping carts of groceries in it, unless they're nearly empty carts. Maybe 1 and 1. I look at it and expect circus clowns to come climbing out.

I can assure you it is not nor will ever be a kit car :)

If you mean literally a kit, I agree with you. But quality takes money. Unless they can show actual fundraising potential, their quality will be that of a kit car.

[turbo wing]

http://images.thecarconnection.com/sml/fvt-evaro-front-quarter_100225890_s.jpg

That is not "based completely on aerodynamics". Yes, aerodynamics is definitely playing a role in the design -- the tapered rear, low cross-section, and shrouded rear wheels being examples. But that V-shaped front-end, oversized ground-hugging air intakes, and stylized fenders are not there for aero. They're for aesthetics, and it annoys me.



That's what I said.



Convertible windows are automotive safety glass and are not canopy doors.



First off, it's not just about safety. Plastic is a "cheap" building material. It has inferior greenhouse properties and degrades much more rapidly than glass. It even feels cheap. But as for safety, there's a single bar across the top, on a low-to-the-ground (i.e., easy for something to end up on top of you) vehicle. Good luck with that. :P



It certainly will need to be :P As it stands, I'm not impressed.



There's such a small amount of room between the driver and the road, there's almost no give allowable. That's not a good thing.



Assuming that what hits you is the size of the eVaro :P Most car front ends will be perfectly lined up with your head, not the fender (except at the very front, where the wheel is). And this thing will slide under most vehicles like they're not even there.

Lastly, I have very little confidence that such a low-budget company will turn out a safe product. The onus is on them to show otherwise.



18" with a direct hit on the cabin would mean halfway through your head.



I call BS on that.

http://www.cargurus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/sema-evaro-06.jpg

There's no way you can seat two people, two sets of golf clubs, and three shopping cars of groceries in that. I doubt you could fit one person and two shopping carts of groceries in it, unless they're nearly empty carts. Maybe 1 and 1.



If you mean literally a kit, I agree with you. But quality takes money. Unless they can show actual fundraising potential, their quality will be that of a kit car.

I love a sceptic :)

[evmavin]

In case you haven't kept up, twin custom made DC motors cost five times what an AC motor cost and DC is over 95% efficient compared to 85% efficient for AC motors


Thanks, thankfully I knew that years ago, do some research on the issues with using PMM with high output. And there is a reason for the high cost, that does not make them better for the application. I'll try and keep up, update me when they sell 200 of these with the specs listed on this forum, I'll buy you a pizza and beer and you can give me a test ride in yours.

Speaking of Pizza, and diner bets, I think there are at least a few people on the forum that are due on their year end Aptera bets:) Karen, I erase all bets with you as a New Years gift:)

[RainCaster]

A skeptic who still carries a torch for Aptera- and actually believes Aptera has a greater chance of raising funds than FVT.

[evmavin]

If this thing is going to be carbon fiber and have high performance specs I would expect it to be expensive. It looks cool from the front but the rear is a bit unrefined and the vehicle does not seem practical in space consideration, This would be a nice vehicle with a single high-power AC drive like the ACP system and FWD which would still make it a 5 second car and not be a 600A power hog. My guess is they can't find an affordable high-power AC drive based on the limited production, like most of these companies.

[evmavin]

A skeptic who still carries a torch for Aptera- and actually believes Aptera has a greater chance of raising funds than FVT.


I have been more critical of Aptera than anyone on this forum from day one, they just have the best concept, and that's all both of these vehicles are at this point. Concept cars. I'm speaking from a business perspective and not a "wow that's cool I want it" perspective. I have never been a fan of Nissan products of any kind but I like what they have done with the Leaf so far even if it has limited range. Let's see what the final specs are on this related to safety, performance, and price. I bet this thing ends up being noisy on the inside as well, consider how it will be assembled, like a "kit car", shell on frame. Unless it has an insulated and sealed composite structure on a frame or with frame attachments. It's not a unibody with insulation and full interior panels like a traditional car. All these vehicles including the Aptera really should be $25K vehicles to be viable in volume, they all just don't have the means to do that today like the big auto makers.

[PatQ562]

I have to question the assertion that a DC motor can have 95% efficiency vs 85% for AC. PM DC motors barely break thru 90% at their optimum loading. Look them up. Even if they hit 95% at some point, the problem is that fixed brush drag (and we can bet that a 600A motor has large brushes) will sap efficiency at normal cruising speed, where it really counts. A wound-field DC motor will have 85% efficiency or less. An AC induction motor can hit 90%, but it has very low frictional losses so we get better efficiency at light loads. This is the real charm of AC propulsion. A PMSM can hit 95% efficiency, the best available performance.

If the goal is awesome punch to impress the customers, the pair of DC motors with high-current drive makes sense. But it's not the highest range solution.

Pat Q

[turbo wing]

These are DC brushless rare earth permanent magnet motors, nothing like these motors exist on the market
that I am aware of, the design of these motors is truly top notch, current on going dyno testing has shown
these motors to be far more efficient then the AC55 they got from Azure which was around 85 % efficient.
also with not transmission and no differential or reduction gearing an ac motor is gutless, this set up is direct
to each wheel, at 135 mph the motors are only spinning at 1800 rpm at 70 mph they are about 1000 rpm

[KarenRei]

Observation: one needs to not look at motor efficiency and instead look at motor + inverter/controller efficiency.

[evmavin]

For those that like tube frames or want to build their own shell and "bail" to a conversion, this is an off the shelf chassis that is fully built. This conversion uses the ACP drive which is what the Evaro should use but is too expensive in limited numbers. The irony, that sure looks like Sand Hill Road, home of the many VC firms.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216942962130013214#

[turbo wing]

For those that like tube frames or want to build their own shell and "bail" to a conversion, this is an off the shelf chassis that is fully built. This conversion uses the ACP drive which is what the Evaro should use but is too expensive in limited numbers. The irony, that sure looks like Sand Hill Road, home of the many VC firms.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216942962130013214#


There using the same drive as the Tesla sports car.
I hear the Tesla roadster dose not get over a hundred miles per gallon this
one might because it's way lighter, not that it maters when your having so much fun :)

[evmavin]

There using the same drive as the Tesla sports car.
I hear the Tesla roadster dose not get over a hundred miles per gallon this
one might because it's way lighter, not that it maters when your having so much fun :)


Yes, as I stated in my post (ACP), that is the same drive but with different specs. The miles per gallon figure is irrelevant to the drive of course. The ACP drive is far more efficient than the drive on the Evaro or any other high-power DC drive for that matter. If the ACP drive were MASS produced at a low cost it would change the direction of many EV start up companies and make the kit conversion market very exciting. Imagine a Porsche Speedster kit car with an ACP drive and high-power pack, Efficient, fast charging, grid tied, super quick, low weight. It's about volume production with EV component costs. If Evaro could buy this setup at a cost comparable to what they are using they would most likely jump at the opportunity.

[PatQ562]

Turbowing said "DC brushless rare earth permanent magnet motors". This is the "PMSM" (Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor), the gold standard of motor efficiency, that can indeed get 95% efficiency, when fed with the requisite multi-phase AC input voltage. This of course is the job of the motor controller, to convert battery DC to variable-voltage, variable frequency, multiphase AC, matched nicely to what the motor wants to see at that exact RPM and loading.

The term "DC brushless motor" is generally used to indicate such a motor (usually small) with BUILT-IN controller circuitry, so the user can just connect DC. This is very common for instance in small cooling fans. There is no obvious technical reason the controller and motor can't be integrated in a large EV size, in fact I would expect this to become common when things get more standardized. For now, there's enough cooling requirements at both ends, and the interconnecting wiring isn't that bad, to have the motor and controller separate.

To facilitate discussion, we should reserve the term "DC motor" for brush-type motors. "DC brushless" could indicate a motor with built-in controller. "AC Motor" would refer to multi-phase motors, with external controllers. Within each class, you would have PM (permanent magnet, usually rare-earth for reduced size and weight, but higher cost) or wound field (for AC motors, the induction motor, which is a pretty decent compromize all around, as AC Propulsion has discovered). The permanent magnet needs protection against extremes of heat or current, which is another job for the controller.

So anyone using "PMSM" (including the unloved Triac) gets kudos for choosing the most efficient scheme.

Pat Q

[NmGfan]

I built motors like that at AMPEX for use in a rotating head assembly for digital data recorders back in the early '80's. The term used for them then was Salient-Pole-Self-Synchronus DC motor. They used a permanent magnet for the rotor and three interlaced coils placed at 120 degree orientation around the motor housing. We purchased the coil assembly from Portescap (Swiss) and built the rest of the motor from custom machined parts. These motors were designed to run at 32,400 RPM (w/angular contact bearings!) spinning a 6-recording-head drum perpendicular to the tape travel path. What was different than described above is the the controller output was DC, electronically commutated to fire each coil in succession. The motor test station only permitted use of fractional speeds like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full speed. I don't know if that technology is scaleable to EV sized traction motors, but it was selected because of the simplicity and efficiency for the data recording application.

:happy0025:

[turbo wing]

At FVT they have designed and are writing the codes for there own controllers, they finished the design on there own BMS and they are now working on there own battery charger
there goal is a one stop shop were you can buy state of the art drive systems all components made to actually work together rather then buying peaces from here and there trying to make something work right, they have been running there new drive system on a dyno for the past four months, the same dyno they ran the Azure system on, so far there getting far better results
with the DC then they got with the AC, I don't know all the details on there new motor design other then they are unique and the only ones like this any where, there kind of made inside out ??
and have some kind of two stage high low torque system built into the windings, I heard at 40 amps there ripping the tires off on the dyno from so much torque and they have the frame tide down as hard as possible with multiple comealongs, it is a mustang dyno with 40 inch drums and can only simulate as low as 2200 lbs cars, even with this much power the mileage is much better then with the AC 55

[NeilBlanchard]

That's cool that they are doing their own electric pieces! Do you know if they plan on using a supercapacitor and/or have it "learn" via GPS and elevation data?

I want to know more about the fuel vapor ICE, too.

BTW, you might want to check out homophones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone).

[evmavin]

At FVT they have designed and are writing the codes for there own controllers, they finished the design on there own BMS and they are now working on there own battery charger
there goal is a one stop shop were you can buy state of the art drive systems all components made to actually work together rather then buying peaces from here and there trying to make something work right, they have been running there new drive system on a dyno for the past four months, the same dyno they ran the Azure system on, so far there getting far better results
with the DC then they got with the AC, I don't know all the details on there new motor design other then they are unique and the only ones like this any where, there kind of made inside out ??
and have some kind of two stage high low torque system built into the windings, I heard at 40 amps there ripping the tires off on the dyno from so much torque and they have the frame tide down as hard as possible with multiple comealongs, it is a mustang dyno with 40 inch drums and can only simulate as low as 2200 lbs cars, even with this much power the mileage is much better then with the AC 55


Of course they will get better specs over an AC55, it's designed for large heavy vehicles not automotive applications like theirs.

[PatQ562]

With all due regard to what may be "lost in translation", it SOUNDS like FVT is doing a multi-pole motor design with a permanent magnet core (the "inside out" part - windings are static, the magnet rotates, unlike a standard DC motor), plus a pole-switching scheme to optimize results at low rpm's. Conventional wisdom suggests that the path to high power and light weight is to increase rpm (note the entire history of the gas and electric motor), but perhaps a detailed analysis shows that the few percent lost in a gear train can be made up with an optimized low rpm motor design. I recall reading some good material on a solar racer forum along the same lines.

I am impressed that FVT is engaged in such deep engineering. Where does Turbowing get all this inside scoop? Is he permitted to pass along actual quotes? I am further impressed that FVT appears to be conducting ongoing dyno testing. I wonder if Aptera has such equipment?

There's still some contradictory statements to resolve. "Using the same drive as the Tesla" implies a 3-phase controller driving a high speed AC induction motor with gear reduction - the AC Propulsion (ACP) technology. The notes above indicate a low-speed permanent magnet synchronous MOTOR - although the controller would look very similar if built for 3 phases. Actually, any number of phases can be added with appropriate adjustments to the control code.

One method of "high low torque" changeover could be a delta-to-wye shift, although it sounds kind of messy.

Anyway, assuming this info is accurate, FVT is doing real engineering, with implied delays in time-to-market. There was also an earlier statement on this thread that the current tube-frame-and-panel design would go into production with a monobody like the Aptera. This sounds like a lot of remaining work to reach market, similar to Aptera about 2 years ago.

Based on their ambitious engineering, I'd be interested, except I can't stand the looks. I also wish they would take their creditable achievements, cut power in half, (0-60 in under 10 seconds is just fine), save money, save weight, extend range - just like the Aptera was supposed to. If FVT intends to sell power trains or power train technology, maybe others will use it more judiciously - although this means more delays, sigh.

Pat Q

[evmavin]

With all due regard to what may be "lost in translation", it SOUNDS like FVT is doing a multi-pole motor design with a permanent magnet core (the "inside out" part - windings are static, the magnet rotates, unlike a standard DC motor), plus a pole-switching scheme to optimize results at low rpm's. Conventional wisdom suggests that the path to high power and light weight is to increase rpm (note the entire history of the gas and electric motor), but perhaps a detailed analysis shows that the few percent lost in a gear train can be made up with an optimized low rpm motor design. I recall reading some good material on a solar racer forum along the same lines.

I am impressed that FVT is engaged in such deep engineering. Where does Turbowing get all this inside scoop? Is he permitted to pass along actual quotes? I am further impressed that FVT appears to be conducting ongoing dyno testing. I wonder if Aptera has such equipment?

There's still some contradictory statements to resolve. "Using the same drive as the Tesla" implies a 3-phase controller driving a high speed AC induction motor with gear reduction - the AC Propulsion (ACP) technology. The notes above indicate a low-speed permanent magnet synchronous MOTOR - although the controller would look very similar if built for 3 phases. Actually, any number of phases can be added with appropriate adjustments to the control code.

One method of "high low torque" changeover could be a delta-to-wye shift, although it sounds kind of messy.

Anyway, assuming this info is accurate, FVT is doing real engineering, with implied delays in time-to-market. There was also an earlier statement on this thread that the current tube-frame-and-panel design would go into production with a monobody like the Aptera. This sounds like a lot of remaining work to reach market, similar to Aptera about 2 years ago.

Based on their ambitious engineering, I'd be interested, except I can't stand the looks. I also wish they would take their creditable achievements, cut power in half, (0-60 in under 10 seconds is just fine), save money, save weight, extend range - just like the Aptera was supposed to. If FVT intends to sell power trains or power train technology, maybe others will use it more judiciously - although this means more delays, sigh.

Pat Q


The dyno testing is most likely to test the product they are designing. Aptera is not building a motor so why would they need to do dyno testing. I find it interesting that such a small company would develop their own components and go to all the trouble to manufacture them for vehicles unless they intend on licensing the technology. If it is good and proven better than what is available then it makes more sense to do just that rather than build vehicles as it is lower cost and risk and does not require a large investment for the auto production. This is what ACP did with Tesla and others. Why dilute a good thing with a questionable auto business if you have a good technology and why risk manufacturing unless you have huge orders. They certainly are not going to build a plant in the US to build motors and hand assembly is fat to costly, look at UQM and ACP, the ACP system in low volume can be built over seas at half the cost.

[turbo wing]

Hey have you checked out the FVT web site lately ? www.futurevehicletechnologies.com they have a real short video on the front page of there car screaming around the end of the shop and about 50 mph or so. not to shabby!!!...looks real stable:thumbsup:

[turbo wing]

That's cool that they are doing their own electric pieces! Do you know if they plan on using a supercapacitor and/or have it "learn" via GPS and elevation data?

I want to know more about the fuel vapor ICE, too.

BTW, you might want to check out homophones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone).


I don't think so as the supercapacitor seems to be more theory then fact at the moment but if they become something viable I'm sure they will take a closer look at the idea
the fuel vapour system is a closely guarded secret so can't help you there

.

[PatQ562]

I, of course, don't know what Aptera has in their shop, but if they're serious, they have one or more dynos running 24/7 testing the various battery candidates as well as their motors. How else are you really going to KNOW which ones are better? Even if they're using off-the-shelf components, they need to know what they can really do, and which ones really work. You can in theory gather this information using actual cars, but we don't see reports of CARS tooling around 24/7 putting miles on batteries and power trains either.

You might suppose battery and motor manufacturers would have this info, but even assuming you trust their numbers (and you'd be surprised how hard it is to get even basic data), there's no substitute for seeing what you get AS INSTALLED in the final application, with real-world load cycles.

I note all this to point out what it takes to be a REAL vehicle developer, as against what we loosely call "kit car" class. "Kit cars" may well use decent components (as pointed out previously) but their TESTING is basically "We've worked on our prototype until it drives OK, and it hasn't broken recently, so let's start selling them". This approach gets you going, but you have no real idea of vehicle lifetime, response to abnormal conditions, and of course, what happens in crashes.

Pat Q

[evmavin]

I, of course, don't know what Aptera has in their shop, but if they're serious, they have one or more dynos running 24/7 testing the various battery candidates as well as their motors. How else are you really going to KNOW which ones are better? Even if they're using off-the-shelf components, they need to know what they can really do, and which ones really work. You can in theory gather this information using actual cars, but we don't see reports of CARS tooling around 24/7 putting miles on batteries and power trains either.

You might suppose battery and motor manufacturers would have this info, but even assuming you trust their numbers (and you'd be surprised how hard it is to get even basic data), there's no substitute for seeing what you get AS INSTALLED in the final application, with real-world load cycles.

I note all this to point out what it takes to be a REAL vehicle developer, as against what we loosely call "kit car" class. "Kit cars" may well use decent components (as pointed out previously) but their TESTING is basically "We've worked on our prototype until it drives OK, and it hasn't broken recently, so let's start selling them". This approach gets you going, but you have no real idea of vehicle lifetime, response to abnormal conditions, and of course, what happens in crashes.

Pat Q



True, and real MFG have extensive test labs that test for durability and longevity for almost every part. Aptera may have a dyno but I doubt they have testing equipment like the big auto makers have.

[palmer_md]

True, and real MFG have extensive test labs that test for durability and longevity for almost every part. Aptera may have a dyno but I doubt they have testing equipment like the big auto makers have.

Here is an interesting article about the business in 2007, just after the release party for the mk-1 prototype.

North County Times Article (http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_2f94e173-27d8-53a2-9be4-b894c0399015.html)


An interesting quote that they were testing the original mk-1 prototype at a Ford test track. I bet this testing is what led them to front wheel drive.


And it has secured the rental of a test center from Ford Motor Co.
"We can rent the whole test facility," Fambro said. "We have access to the high-speed oval, to the bumpy roads, the salt water bath … "

So apparently they don't own the test equipment, but they do have access to it.

http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_2f94e173-27d8-53a2-9be4-b894c0399015.html
__________________

[turbo wing]

You guys are both right however it's good to keep in mind all the over head needed for testing and any one starting off including the big three in the early days had to start some where. I think both Aptera and FVT are biting off a big peace to go into production, I believe there will be plenty of on going up grades along the way, even thou I'm sure they both use high powered computer programming to bridge the time and money gap to come to the best engineering possible, I applaud the both of them for even starting down this path. maybe there efforts and technologies will end up in some other vehicles by the time they actual end up in production

[Aptera#1434]

For those that like tube frames or want to build their own shell and "bail" to a conversion, this is an off the shelf chassis that is fully built. This conversion uses the ACP drive which is what the Evaro should use but is too expensive in limited numbers. The irony, that sure looks like Sand Hill Road, home of the many VC firms.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216942962130013214#

Yup. 2882/2884 Sandhill Rd., Menlo Park, CA. I used to work at 2882. Sandhill is VC central.

[wcabdefense]

This vehicle may or may not win the X-Prize, but I think it will be the most affordable solution within the Top 3 commuter entries for overall range, performance, and functionality. If that is the result, I say "Close Enough." However, if they win, they will take off like the 2008 Aptera Reservations. :thumbsup:

[wcabdefense]

Plan A: Buy an Aptera 2e in 2010.

Plan B: Invest Aptera 2e money in FVT and use the Post-X-Prize IPO profits to buy Aptera 2h and a Tesla Roadster in 2015. :doublethumbs:

[evmavin]

Plan A: Buy an Aptera 2e in 2010.

Plan B: Invest Aptera 2e money in FVT and use the Post-X-Prize IPO profits to buy Aptera 2h and a Tesla Roadster in 2015. :doublethumbs:


I would like to take an insurance policy on that investment. Ponzi style. I suggest a healthy dose of due diligence for plan B.

[wcabdefense]

I still have not figured out where their 20M infusion is coming from in 2011. That number seems to be facilitating profitability and production in their investment spreadsheet. Maybe a little like "as soon as I win the Mega-Millions Jackpot, I will pay off my Mastercard bill."

[randyd]

I, of course, don't know what Aptera has in their shop, but if they're serious, they have one or more dynos running 24/7 testing the various battery candidates as well as their motors. How else are you really going to KNOW which ones are better?
I, of course, don't know what Aptera has in their shop either, but to answer your question, most large consumers of batteries invest a few $K each for a group of all electronic battery stress testers. No moving parts (except a fan for cooling) and no moving of the units under test, either. A bank of testers cost less than a single a dyno, plus they happily run 24/7, even on holidays, plus the batteries don't need to be installed in a vehicle to be tested. :thumbsup:

[PatQ562]

Fair enough. An electronic load tester and recharger is better than nothing, but "installing in a car" and loading with the actual motor would be important to me so you would capture the effects of ventilation and any oddities about the controller waveforms etc. I would probably want both.

Pat Q

[randyd]

I would absolutely want dyno and long distance road testing because they test all the components assembled. Does the the motor whine at high speeds? Do the wheels cause a resonant vibration in sympathy with the motor at certain speeds? Do the shocks over dampen or under dampen? Etc. It's just that dyno and road testing are both much more expensive than an electric battery tester. So, in a startup, you buy the bank of battery testers, and borrow or rent the dyno, and let the founder drive the vehicle to/from work and elsewhere.

[evmavin]

Fair enough. An electronic load tester and recharger is better than nothing, but "installing in a car" and loading with the actual motor would be important to me so you would capture the effects of ventilation and any oddities about the controller waveforms etc. I would probably want both.

Pat Q


This is very important due to the very tight packaging in the 2e as well as stress testing the vehicle long term like the big makers do, look at all the machine tests the volt went through for it's many components. My dad was a structural and materials engineer in aerospace and did quite a bit of long-term testing for autos made by GM and others, which is something most startups don't have the resources, budget or time to do.

[wcabdefense]

I want with all my heart to receive Aptera 2e #111 in Feb/March 2011. If they close the doors for some unforeseen (or foreseen) reason, this is probably where I will land. I know the eVaro will see daylight, but do not know how popular it will be. Then again, this quest is not a popularity contest; it is a calling of conscience. EVaro has all the qualities I am seeking, including a head-turning form, high MPGe, power, and HOV entitlement. No vehicle is perfect for everyone, so I think they have to market to the niche and hope it will naturally grow.

[NeilBlanchard]

From this PDF (http://www.futurevehicletechnologies.com/275mpge_Press_Release.pdf):

The eVaro weighs a mere 1250 lbs., turns 0-60 times of five seconds and has a top speed of 135 mph. The new series hybrid achieves an amazing 275 mpg equivalent (MPGe) for city driving (15-40 mph) and 165 MPGe for highway driving (45-75 mph), and a range of 65-90 miles (electric)

The mileage numbers are from tests done by University of the Fraser Valley, in British Columbia.

[eventhusiast]

I have been looking at this car for years...and not much has happened until the x-prize was announced. Its cool BUT....in my opinion it wont see major production and I know they wont sell their technology. The big auto manufacturers rarely buy anything and almost never from a small company, unless their forced by lawsuit because they made their own version which fringed upon a patent. Look at Toyota Prius and their lawsuit on their drivetrain design. Its been going on for years and years.

FVT will probably fade away after they build a couple dozen units, if that.

[evmavin]

I have been looking at this car for years...and not much has happened until the x-prize was announced. Its cool BUT....in my opinion it wont see major production and I know they wont sell their technology. The big auto manufacturers rarely buy anything and almost never from a small company, unless their forced by lawsuit because they made their own version which fringed upon a patent. Look at Toyota Prius and their lawsuit on their drivetrain design. Its been going on for years and years.

FVT will probably fade away after they build a couple dozen units, if that.


I could not agree more for dozens of reasons. The only viable market for cars like this and the Duo are in the Sub $15K category.

[wcabdefense]

You folks may be right about it not selling more than a few dozen vehicles. On the other hand I only need one, and it may be a limited edition model that fits all my needs and also fits in a 1 car garage. :biggrin:

[PatQ562]

Although I still can't stomach the styling, PM's from Turbowing reveal that E-varo is conducting some serious high-tech PMSM prototyping (due to a misunderstanding of terms, it's NOT a plain old brush DC motor as I first thought). If they ever adopt grown-up styling, the car could be quite interesting technically.

Pat Q

[NmGfan]

The only viable market for cars like this and the Duo are in the Sub $15K category.

Are there any DC powered, freeway speed capable EV's, proposed or available, for sale for under $15K? No.
Under $20K? No.
Under $25K? No.
Under $30K? One.

I'm not sure why simpler DC powered EV's are *Supposed* to cost less than $15K when no one is capable of making any freeway capable EV for that price, AC or DC powered.

For reference, *all* proposed AC powered EV's pricing seems to be north of $30K. For proposed EV's that look like they'll make it to market, Th!nk's target price is $45K (maybe $40K after launch), Roadsters are over $100K. Even Aptera is claiming they'll have a way for their EV to cost $45K, and if the 2g ever materializes, that'll go for $25K and it runs on gasoline.

Right now nothing freeway capable is going for anything less that $25K in the EV space, nothing. I know EV specific component prices will drop over time as demand increases and economies of scale materialize, but that will be for all EV's, not just AC powered models.

So, AC powered EV's will be expensive, in the Over $35K category. Makes sense, they are more complex; having expensive AC specific inverters, the costly but superior heavy gear reduction FWD set-up, and sophisticated regenerative braking systems.

:happy0025:

[aptera1213]

I think the Th!nk City will be much below 45K...I've heard talk of 30K in the US. Of course who knows.

At 30K I would be interested in the City. At 45K I would not.

At 30K I would be interested in the Aptera 2e. At 45K I would not.

It I'm going 45K on a car I will add a few more Ks and get in line for the S.

Gavin

[palmer_md]

We are talking real world prices. Of course people are interested in cars under $30k, and carmakers know this so to generate interest they say they would like to build a car for $25k-$30k. But so far nobody has been able to do it. It's all talk up to this point.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Gavin,

I have seen a price mentioned for the Th!nk City to be around $22,000. And the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Global) mentions a lower range than that:

Think CEO Jan-Olaf Willums indicated that the City will sell in the US for $15,000 - $17,000, with a Mobility Fee of $100–$200 per month to lease the batteries that may also include Wireless and Car Insurance.[19 (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm)]

[Matthijs]

Hi Gavin,

I have seen a price mentioned for the Th!nk City to be around $22,000. And the Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Global) mentions a lower range than that:

Man at that price it would be a no-brainer considering that the Thinks costs €37,000 ($51K) here but that is with the battery included. But for the price difference you can do a lot of payments on the lease and insurance.

[SlowSRT4]

Man at that price it would be a no-brainer considering that the Thinks costs €37,000 ($51K) here but that is with the battery included. But for the price difference you can do a lot of payments on the lease and insurance.
I don't know about where you live, but that doesn't seem like a no-brainer here in the States. Smart car sales have been down this past year and that car is around $12k. Even at $22k with battery included (best case scenario probably) I think the Fisher-Price car will be a hard sell for most people. Many economy-minded folks will simply opt for a Smart Fortwo, Fiat 500, Ford Fiesta, or similar.

But as Neil quoted if they get the base price to $15k and a relatively cheap monthly payment, they could carve a niche. I certainly hope they get that price down, because absolutely nobody would buy this thing at $30k, not when it looks like that imo.

[turbo wing]

Are there any DC powered, freeway speed capable EV's, proposed or available, for sale for under $15K? No.
Under $20K? No.
Under $25K? No.
Under $30K? One.


Of all the proposed new EV's coming to market the only one I know of that was designed specifically for long range high speed highways & freeways is the eVaro.

Because the eVaro and for that mater the Aptera construction is all composite, I can't see either car ever coming off a robotic assembly line like current cars do, this of course driving costs up, Do to the higher cost of producing of these vehicles, it is unlikely you will ever see them in the 20 to 30 K range, they will likely be 30 + K, because they just cost to much to produce. this doesn't mean they wont sell lots of cars it just means they wont be most peoples first choice,

Also if you want range and speed for highway driving it will have to be light weight and aerodynamic, electric cars built out of steel like every other car today will never get as good of range or mileage as the composite construction will.

[NmGfan]

Think CEO Jan-Olaf Willums indicated that the City will sell in the US for $15,000 - $17,000, with a Mobility Fee of $100–$200 per month to lease the batteries that may also include Wireless and Car Insurance
That sounds pretty good until the battery lease costs are included, say for 5 years of use. A Th!nk City for $16K (someday) plus 60 months @ $200 ($12K) equals $28K over 5 years, not a less than $25K EV. If pricing at US launch is a more realistic $22K and the battery lease is for $150/mo then the final five year ownership price is $31K, just north of $30K which fits in with what others are proposing that include owning the pack with a 10 year warranty. IMHO it is overly optimistic to believe $16K for the glider and $100/mo for the pack lease (everything at the lowest proposed price, unless the lease contract is for 10 years!); nothing indicates that is possible in the EV space today.

If I replaced all the PbA batteries (13 new ones) in my ("overpriced") EV after a five year period, my costs would be $25K + ($155x13)* = $27K, less than a realistically proposed Th!nk City price, even if the glider were priced at $16K.

*$1950/8580Wh = $0.22727Wh or $227.27kWh
Not quite the holy grail of $200/kWh yet, even for PbA...

:happy0025:

[KarenRei]

And the car's not going to be on the road for only 5 years. The average age of a car on the roads in the US is ~9 1/2 years, implying an average life expectancy of 19 years. And growing.

Battery leasing is indeed a gimmick. But if it makes more people be able to afford an EV, I have no problem with it -- so long as I don't have to do it.

[aptera1213]

Ah, but the Th!nk City is 4 wheels and 4 seats (kinda...more like 2 seats and lots of storage or 2 seats and 2 kids under 10 in the back.)

I don't see the battery as being 200 a month. I could be wrong.

I hated the idea of leasing batteries....Now not so much. I like the idea of trading in the batteries every three to five years for new, updated batteries.

If you can buy a think for under 20K and have a range of 100 miles range and then in 3 years or so suddenly have 200 miles range, it's like getting a new car every 3 to 5 years. :)


The down side for me of "renting" the batteries is that I will only put about 5 to 6 thousand miles a year on the car. But I imagine the lease is the same price whether you drive 5 thousand vs 15 thousand miles a year. So I won't benefit cost-wise as much as people who drive a lot more (i bike and scooter a lot...and would still bike and scooter a lot even if I get an EV).
Gavin

[NmGfan]

The average age of a car on the roads in the US is ~9 1/2 years
Even if I replace all my batteries twice over 10yrs, I'm still under $30K. A Th!nk City with leased batteries (in my example) for 10 years would then cost $40K.

Sure it cost $16K, without a battery pack; and then $18K more over ten years so it can be driven, hellava deal...

:happy0025:

[NmGfan]

I don't see the battery as being 200 a month. I could be wrong.

I don't either, nor do I see $100/mo as realistic for the reasons that you mentioned, some folks will hammer the batteries, and others will never stress them. Even at that price, it is still an extra $10K on top of the purchase price. It feels to me like owning a mobile home (low purchase price) but still having to rent the space it's parked on (for ever), more expensive, not less.

:happy0025:

[KarenRei]

If you can buy a think for under 20K and have a range of 100 miles range and then in 3 years or so suddenly have 200 miles range, it's like getting a new car every 3 to 5 years. :)

That's not going to happen, though. First off, they're going to want to use their battery packs until they die, so even if the tech suddenly advanced, they wouldn't want to start phasing in the new packs except to replace dead ones (they'd probably handle it as charging a significant premium for the better pack). Second, that's way too much improvement in 3 years.

Now, a 200 mile pack in 10 years, that's a lot more realistic. Perhaps even a little less. But I can't see their packs doubling in energy density in three years, and even if it did, I can't see them just retiring all of their packs that still have significant life left on them.

[aptera1213]

Old packs go to the electrical grid to live a long life there.

Yeah 3 years is optimistic. I went three years as that is a common lease term.

5 years is good too. :)

As for some people pounding and some being gentle on the battery pack:

It could be a length of time/use miles lease. Return your batteries at 40 thousand miles for a new pack lease. If that is in 3 years, the new batteries lease cost this: new battery lease plus 2000. If that is in 4 years, new battery lease plus 1000. If that is in 5 years, new battery lease plus 0.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

Again, 5 years or 40,000 miles are both extremely optimistic. :) GM's warrantying the Volt's pack for 10 years or 150,000 miles to 80% capacity -- and that's just the warranty. Also, energy density improvements have been averaging about 8% per year -- so if the rate holds, that'd be about 9 years to double the range.

Yes, there will always be *some* packs that die early and need to be replaced. However, new packs from the new, higher-capacity lines will surely first go to new vehicles first. These new, higher-capacity packs will probably only come every 3-4 years at first to save on design and tooling costs. Due to new vehicles getting "first dibs", replacement packs for existing vehicles will come from old stock until they exhaust it. So it'd probably be about 5 years before any newer packs hit the lease market, and the tech in these packs would be a year or two old. And even then, due to their scarcity and demand for them, Th!nk would almost certainly charge a significant premium for them. And again, these wouldn't be 200-mile packs; they'd be more like 125-mile packs.

And that's assuming Th!nk prioritizes increasing range rather than reducing costs -- a pretty big assumption.

Yes, old battery packs can go to the grid, but the key is *old* battery packs. Power companies don't want to pay anywhere close to the sort of rates EV buyers will pay per kWh. They want to buy the stuff that nobody else wants anymore at bargain-basement prices.

[aptera1213]

Dang it, you're messing with my dreams of long range EVs in 2012 :)

Actually the world is more likely to end in 2012 than for me to get 300 miles from an Aptera or Th!nk ;) Damn you Mayan Calender

I do think most car companies will prioritize range...The first wave of EV users will not be overly concerned with range. They are the believers. But the second wave will need some prodding. Range is a good prod. Well, actually, lack of range is a good prod against EVs.


They will at least do what Tesla is doing...offering different pack sizes (econo, Mid and Long range)
Gavin

[KarenRei]

I do think most car companies will prioritize range...The first wave of EV users will not be overly concerned with range. They are the believers. But the second wave will need some prodding. Range is a good prod. Well, actually, lack of range is a good prod against EVs.

Gavin

With conventional hybrids, they've prioritized pack cost reduction over capacity increase, and probably will largely do the same with PHEVs, but I think you're right for BEVs, at least in part (I expect them to try to tackle both at once, but probably more towards increasing range than toward cost reduction). Also, if they want to mainstream them, they're going to have to have rapid charging and rapid charging stations. Range without rapid charging is only a partial solution for mainstream customers.

[SlowSRT4]

Smaller durable pack w/ active liquid temp control and very light cycles + range extender FTW

[KarenRei]

Smaller is bad, actually. The bigger the pack, the less stress that gets put on it. Just the opposite of light cycles, compared to a BEV. The range extender, too, stresses the pack, as it's used for buffering.

The pack size argument works to Th!nk's favor. To their disadvantage is their use of a higher DoD.

[SlowSRT4]

Smaller is bad, actually. The bigger the pack, the less stress that gets put on it. Just the opposite of light cycles, compared to a BEV. The range extender, too, stresses the pack, as it's used for buffering.

The pack size argument works to Th!nk's favor. To their disadvantage is their use of a higher DoD.
I was referring to the Volt (16 kWh pack, 8 kWh usable). :)

[KarenRei]

I was referring to the Volt (16 kWh pack, 8 kWh usable). :)

Ah, so desu...

[randyd]

However, new packs from the new, higher-capacity lines will surely first go to new vehicles first.
Most assuredly.
These new, higher-capacity packs will probably only come every 3-4 years at first to save on design and tooling costs.
If that often. When vehicle manufacturers retool for style, they *might* retool the battery pack. If they do retool the battery pack, I don't expect the new batteries to fit the older model vehicles. For example, there won't be enough (or the right kind of) cooling, there will be connector changes, weight distribution changes, etc. If customers demand longer range, they will retool to build larger packs for their new (more expensive) models. All of these factors will ensure that the new pack won't just drop into the older vehicle.
Due to new vehicles getting "first dibs", replacement packs for existing vehicles will come from old stock until they exhaust it.
Replacement packs will most likely come from aftermarket vendors, much like laptop batteries.
So it'd probably be about 5 years before any newer packs hit the lease market, and the tech in these packs would be a year or two old.
I expect aftermarket batteries to be available with "the latest" battery tech for any/all high volume vehicles within a year of the vehicle reaching moderate sales volumes. (Just guessing: 1K/month?)
And even then, due to their scarcity and demand for them, Th!nk would almost certainly charge a significant premium for them.
They would have to charge a heck of a premium for them to use their own resources to build battery packs instead of vehicles.
Yes, old battery packs can go to the grid, but the key is *old* battery packs. Power companies don't want to pay anywhere close to the sort of rates EV buyers will pay per kWh. They want to buy the stuff that nobody else wants anymore at bargain-basement prices.
They won't want to pay a penny more per kWh of storage than they currently pay for their current energy storage options. I have a hard time seeing a building full of batteries and supporting electronics competing economically with Pumped Hydroelectric Storage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity).

[NeilBlanchard]

An update (http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render?v=001FbEh9Xz0N4JhmMhS8JGZQQ4yOMIcCYZDj1s9ox dw_fg40XENbpQh4u--H3C7tOrbtCYMMiFsL4Qime3E7_GNQTcrYRuCDUKiBOAzhtw0gV GjALsHtvs87Q%3D%3D) from FVT, on the eVaro.

[rayfellow]

An update (http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render?v=001FbEh9Xz0N4JhmMhS8JGZQQ4yOMIcCYZDj1s9ox dw_fg40XENbpQh4u--H3C7tOrbtCYMMiFsL4Qime3E7_GNQTcrYRuCDUKiBOAzhtw0gV GjALsHtvs87Q%3D%3D) from FVT, on the eVaro.

Kind of makes you wish this was the team C for the Aptera. These folks have what Aptera needs. Turned on, motivated believers. Sheee

[rayfellow]

An update (http://campaign.constantcontact.com/render?v=001FbEh9Xz0N4JhmMhS8JGZQQ4yOMIcCYZDj1s9ox dw_fg40XENbpQh4u--H3C7tOrbtCYMMiFsL4Qime3E7_GNQTcrYRuCDUKiBOAzhtw0gV GjALsHtvs87Q%3D%3D) from FVT, on the eVaro.

This verbage in the url noted above... I wonder what the output of this 'generator' is?

'As we have mentioned in the past, FVT believes an on-board generator plays the key role in making mass produced electric vehicles successful. Results from the generator so far are very impressive. It has the capacity to keep the vehicle at highway speeds and charge the batteries at the same time. All this in a package that weighs less than 200 lbs and is smaller than an average suitcase.'

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello Ray,

They mean their own proprietary engine (FVT *used* to mean Fuel Vapor Technologies) and generator. This vehicle is a serial hybrid, as they mention.

[rayfellow]

Hello Ray,

They mean their own proprietary engine (FVT *used* to mean Fuel Vapor Technologies) and generator. This vehicle is a serial hybrid, as they mention.

I was thinking it might be a particularly effective one at 200 lbs and suitcase sized. I was trying to speculate as to its power output? It must be 10kw output or more to keep up with the eVaro's average energy consumption.

Personally I don't care much for the eVaro's layout (tandem seating and canopy top) but am quite impressed with the way they are bringing the vehicle to production, the teams abilities, and especially some of the innovative mechanics... like the generator. The FVT engine may find applications on other hybrid vehicles.

[turbo wing]

I was thinking it might be a particularly effective one at 200 lbs and suitcase sized. I was trying to speculate as to its power output? It must be 10kw output or more to keep up with the eVaro's average energy consumption.

Personally I don't care much for the eVaro's layout (tandem seating and canopy top) but am quite impressed with the way they are bringing the vehicle to production, the teams abilities, and especially some of the innovative mechanics... like the generator. The FVT engine may find applications on other hybrid vehicles.


Hey guys the FVT generator is 20 kilowatts and 400 volts, it's an 1100 cc's four cylinder pancake water cooled engine that runs a steady 3,700 RPM
they plan on making there entire drive train available for other production vehicles

[NeilBlanchard]

Thanks for that info -- do we know what sort of FE this setup gets in charging mode? In other words, if you start out with a discharged battery, and drive it with the genset, what FE will it get?

[turbo wing]

Thanks for that info -- do we know what sort of FE this setup gets in charging mode? In other words, if you start out with a discharged battery, and drive it with the genset, what FE will it get?


testing is on going, there are no official numbers as yet however all indications are exiting, the genset runs so clean they had to take the cats out to fine tune it,
there may be some hard numbers in the next month maybe even sooner

[NeilBlanchard]

The FVT team and their eVaro have made it to the Michigan Speedway:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/evaroMay2XPrizeRace010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/evaroMay2atMichiganInternationalSpe.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/evarogensetMay2005.jpg

The final paint job will have to wait; but they made it!

[organic]

Wow the FVT looks to have some nice build quality, great welds. Anyone know what the big blue thing is near the air filter? Guess it's part of the "Fuel Vapor Technologies" part.

[SlowSRT4]

It does look very solid. Though I think the rear end could look a little better, just aesthetically speaking, because the front end looks great.

[NeilBlanchard]

I believe the large blue cylinder is the generator -- [20kW]. It is attached to the crankshaft of the flat 4-cylinder ICE; of which you can see the 2 valve covers.

The twin electric motors are down underneath -- you can just see the black drive shaft behind the blue coil spring on the shock unit.

Has anybody heard of the EIG batteries they are using?

[NeilBlanchard]

BTW, the eVaro seems to be achieving the electric-only range very similar to what the Aptera *used* to. They have awesome regenerative braking: it provides *all* of the braking down to 5mph, when the inboard hydraulic brakes take over.

[KarenRei]

I agree, it looks like they've improved their build quality. I'm still no fan of that canopy, but it looks more solid than it used to.

[gistmarrs]

I believe the large blue cylinder is the generator -- 20kWh

Only 20kwh! what happens after that, does it need to be rebuilt?

Just kidding.

I have been extremely skeptical of Fuel Vapor Technologies since I first read about them 2 or 3 years ago. I am a little less now, but there is no way I would invest any money in them. They have made wild claims that appear to be non-sensical. (ie. 800hp, 1400 ft.lbs., 1,300 lbs, yet only 5 sec. 0-60) If they can actually backup some of these claims, I might become a supporter.

[palmer_md]

I have been extremely skeptical of Fuel Vapor Technologies since I first read about them 2 or 3 years ago. I am a little less now, but there is no way I would invest any money in them. They have made wild claims that appear to be non-sensical. (ie. 800hp, 1400 ft.lbs., 1,300 lbs, yet only 5 sec. 0-60) If they can actually backup some of these claims, I might become a supporter.

Luckily for all of us, you'll have your supporting evidence (or lack of) in the next few months.

[NeilBlanchard]

Oops -- I did mean 20kW, of course. It is enough to run the motors and charge the battery pack in short order, as I understand it. The FVT eVaro is how a serial hybrid should be done.

[NeilBlanchard]

Here are pictures of the 20kW generator they made for the eVaro:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/genset054.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/FVTgenerator.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/gl1100goldwingmotorconvertedtoFVTge.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evarogensetMay2005.jpg
It uses the engine block of a Honda GL-1100 (Gold Wing) motorcycle, and everything is designed to run at a constant RPM. It is able to run the eVaro at highway speed, AND charge the battery in about 1 hour.

[RainCaster]

That is a fine piece of mechanical artwork. If only I could place an order...

[shotgunslade]

Very interesting that the 20 kW is being supplied by a 68 in3 displacement engine. Assuming standard generator and power conditioning losses, that works out to a little over 30 hp, or less than 0.5 hp/in3. The stock Honda engine is good for over 80hp. Have they modified the valve timing to achieve a "modern" Atkinson cycle?

[NeilBlanchard]

They apparently have made their own cam, and all the intake design is theirs, too -- they used to be named Fuel Vapor Technologies, after all. The number on their web page is ~165MPGe on the highway (presumably including some charging?)

[NeilBlanchard]

Some pictures of the custom drive motors:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/FVTevarodrivemotors005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/FVTevarodrivemotors003.jpg

[NeilBlanchard]

More pictures:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/random051.jpg

Check out the inboard brakes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/random047.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/random039.jpg

The 14kWh EiG battery pack:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evarofireApril910047.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evarofireApril910045.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evarofireApril910046.jpg

[NeilBlanchard]

I've had an update on the eVaro: they have fully solved their software glitch that was preventing them from going 60mph -- they took a fairly long road trip and went as fast as 80mph.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission035.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission034.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission033.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission031.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission029.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission038.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaroatmission036.jpg

Also, they have tested the regenerative braking, and can do 60-0mph in 130 feet.

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/ecb6ec1f6b27ee4d1a9db12636978cd3/video/14888193

[NeilBlanchard]

So, no discussion of an electric drive vehicle that can manage 100-120 miles on a 14kWh battery pack, and also manage to do 0-60 in under 5 seconds? And brake from 60-0 in 130 feet using only regenerative braking down to 5mph?

[chijayhawker]

I like the look of the EVaro (just as radical as the Aptera), but I haven't heard them make any claims about delivery dates or pricing (which maybe should have been Aptera's methdology since now they look like total fools by consistently failing on their statements). So for now, the EVaro to me is a sicence experiment and not a real product yet. The Aptera used to have that "real product" feel, but they have definitely fallen into the category of "failing" science experiment.

[wcabdefense]

I think the eVaro is fantastic, and I will be in line as soon as they feel comfortable taking reservations. As I said in the 1st post here, I think it embodies everything that I am looking for in a fun/fuel efficient vehicle. Of course, they are not much closer than Aptera to putting vehicles in driveways but I am definitely keeping me eye on them both.

My only criticism so far is that the front looks like a lobster tail. I feel like the front grill could be a little more aero/smooth, but that is my personal taste.

[SlowSRT4]

So, no discussion of an electric drive vehicle that can manage 100-120 miles on a 14kWh battery pack, and also manage to do 0-60 in under 5 seconds? And brake from 60-0 in 130 feet using only regenerative braking down to 5mph?
It has a gas tank, therefore it is absolutely terrible for any use or situation.

"Electric drive vehicle"? What is that, some sort of false association with it being an electric car? It has a GAS tank, so it is a GAS car. There is no distinction beyond that.

[AR-51]

You can find information on the eVaro's design here. Its a Canadian web site about three wheel vehicles.

http://www.clevislauzon.qc.ca/Professeurs/Mecanique/ethierp/3-wheels/best3w.htm

[aptera1213]

it's cool what they are doing and i wish them luck...but i'm looking for electric only.

it's also good that they fixed their problems and that the car is now all one color...though i must admit i don't like the flat putty grey color...that car calls for some bold color and shine.

Gavin

[NeilBlanchard]

The serial hybrid genset of the eVaro is probably an option! So, you will likely be able to buy an electric-only version. And since it is a serial hybrid, and since it moves only from power of the 2 custom permanent magnet motors, it is an electric drive vehicle.

It is sorta' similar to the Volt -- except FVT has done a serial hybrid the "right" way; with a much more sensible genset, that can run the eVaro at highway speeds AND charge the battery in an hour -- and then it shuts off. So, a long trip scenario might be: charge it at night, drive 100-120 miles on electric only, then the genset kicks in for an hour, then you can drive another 100-120 miles on electric only, then the genset kicks in for another hour, and then you can drive 100-120 miles... That adds up to about an 8 hour drive, and the ICE has only run for a total of 2 hours! When it is running, it runs at a fixed RPM, where everything is optimized.

A while ago, they mentioned a price of about 40,000 -- I'm assuming that was Canadian dollars.

[PatQ562]

I guess I'm the official Evaro skeptic. But things don't add up. Here's a car that is clearly less aero than Aptera, weight is unknown, motors seem to violate known engineering principles, and all we have is their claims for range - much like Aptera's in 2008. So as of date, we have no objective evidence (nor about Aptera for that matter). Hopefully the X-prize results will clarify things, although I don't know if they will specifically look at battery-only range.

The construction photos reveal a labor of love but it hardly looks cheap to build. A full panic stop on regen is impressive (if we actually believe that no brakes were used) but how many times will that come into play?

Regarding the motors, the "known engineering principles" reflect the century of experience that getting more power from a lighter motor requires high rpm - but eVaro's motors are said to be directly coupled to the wheels. So either they are heavier than necessary, or will run hot, or both. Since they do achieve impressive torque and acceleration, they are handing their users a means to quickly drain their batteries - fun, but hardly conducive to range.

Regarding the styling, I will have to fall back on Thumper's Rule -- "If you can't say somethin' nice, don't say nothin' at all".

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Pat,

We will see what happens at the X-Prize, for sure. We do have third party tests (http://futurevehicletechnologies.com/275mpge_Press_Release.pdf) of the efficiency (of the previous version, I think, using an Azure set up). They said their custom permanent magnet motors beat the Remy for maximum efficiency, and they are direct drive, so there is much less transmission loss because they do not need a reduction gear set, and there is no differential, either. The software acts as the differential -- that was related to the glitch they had in the first stage, that is now solved.

They said that the (inboard) friction brakes are used from 5mph down to 0. Regen simply cannot generate enough stopping power below 5mph.

[PatQ562]

This "third party test" is so vaguely described as to be hard to evaluate, starting with the big question, how does "mpge" relate to electricity consumption? To properly relate to other benchmarks such as Aptera, or the EV1, we need relatively uncomplicated metrics such as electrical power consumed at various speeds. With several speed vs power measurements to calibrate the total drag numbers, it becomes relatively straightforward to at least estimate the impact of hills and acceleration (which will be a function of weight of course).

Avoiding transmission losses is a point in favor, saving typically 5% of the power required, and of course, the software has to cope with slightly different motor speeds on each wheel. However, a direct coupled motor is only turning at about 800 rpm at 60 mph, vs something like 8000 rpm for a "conventional" high speed motor with gearset. Since torque is proportional to current, this means that the direct coupled motor must use 10 times the current to produce the same net wheel torque. This can be compensated for by winding ten times as many turns at the same current, but then you have ten times the amount of copper winding. I am simplifying the point, but it is very well known in electronics that the size of AC magnetic elements (such as motors or transformers) is inversely proportional to the operating frequency. The 8000 rpm motor is operating at 10 times the AC frequency of an 800 rpm motor, which means it can be 1/10 the weight for the same power capacity. Motor weight and cost tend to track the amount of copper and iron (and expensive magnet material) required in the design. Therefore, I would expect the direct-drive motors to be costly, large, and heavy, and indeed, they LOOK like 150 lbs apiece.

It's hard for me to reconcile the eVaro's 1250 lb weight claim with an 1800 lb Aptera. The Aptera motor and gearset should weigh about 150 lbs total vs 300 lbs (guess) for eVaro's two motors. The Aptera's 20kWh battery probably weighs about 150 lbs more than eVaro's 14kWh battery, so the weight of the entire EV powertrain of both vehicles might be similar. BUT eVaro adds an electrical genset with gas tank that appears to weigh another 150-200 lbs altogether. Since these two weight budgets add up to about 600-700 lbs, this suggests the rest of the eVaro must weigh about 500-600 lbs vs the rest of the Aptera weighing about 1100-1200 lbs. I just don't SEE a 2:1 weight advantage in the eVaro construction.

Furthermore, with the body-enclosed wheels (non skirted), wind-catching nostrils and blunt rear end, and many gratuitous body angles and protrusions, it's hard to see the eVaro outperforming the Aptera on aero drag, even with the tandem seating and awkward canopy entry.

I give them points for silent power transmission (no gear whine), awesome peak power, and inboard front brakes. I also agree with their provision of a relatively large battery and small genset. Furthermore, if they're smart they can use the "differential compensation software" to actively assist in pulling the vehicle around corners, as Honda and others are doing in 4 wheel cars. But providing twin motors and twin controllers is not a low-cost solution, not to mention a "full EV size" battery plus an advanced 4 cylinder genset.

It will be interesting to see how they do in competition.

Pat Q

[rayfellow]

I'm thinking of the eVaro of today - as the VW was in the mid 1950's. The evolution of the VW drive train ended up in everything - vans, pickup trucks, dune buggies and modified VW autos. I'm a California boy who is in the Philippines, and Asian countries, and see the honda 50cc motor (and its big brother up to 110 cc's) in everything from street racers to small heavy duty trucks.

The eVaro drive train is the thing that has a future. The vehicle itself may or may not be loved for its utility and beauty. Pat correctly points out the lack of 3rd party and real world - hands on review. Time will tell, but.... if the eVaro drive train does what it says it is doing in terms of efficency of battery, drive train, genset, regenerative braking etc. then they have the next VW/Honda 50.

The Chevy Volt is sort of the same thing, only using off the shelf parts for the ice, and not going quite far enough with regen braking.

My wife and I both think the eVaro car is.. well if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. But the drive train... wow.

[SlowSRT4]

The serial hybrid genset of the eVaro is probably an option! So, you will likely be able to buy an electric-only version. And since it is a serial hybrid, and since it moves only from power of the 2 custom permanent magnet motors, it is an electric drive vehicle.

It is sorta' similar to the Volt -- except FVT has done a serial hybrid the "right" way; with a much more sensible genset, that can run the eVaro at highway speeds AND charge the battery in an hour -- and then it shuts off. So, a long trip scenario might be: charge it at night, drive 100-120 miles on electric only, then the genset kicks in for an hour, then you can drive another 100-120 miles on electric only, then the genset kicks in for another hour, and then you can drive 100-120 miles... That adds up to about an 8 hour drive, and the ICE has only run for a total of 2 hours! When it is running, it runs at a fixed RPM, where everything is optimized.

A while ago, they mentioned a price of about 40,000 -- I'm assuming that was Canadian dollars.
You have fallen off your rocker if you think that it can go 120 miles highway, turn on the tiny generator and run it at a low RPM for 1 hour (which is powering the car), and then go another 120 miles on the highway.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Edison2 Very Light Car has similar steel tube and composite panel construction to the eVaro, and the heaviest VLC is under 800 pounds in total. So, the chassis sans the ICE, fuel tank and its transmission and cooling system is probably ~100 pounds lighter. So, the 1,250 is plausible, but maybe it was for the previous version with it's single Azure AC motor? Or, maybe it is w/o the genset?

They have improved the canopy entry, btw. I agree that the aero (at least the details) look to be less good than the Aptera 2e. The VLC, btw is rated also rated of a Cd of 0.15; very similar to the 2e -- part of this due to the fixed struts with airfoil covers.

Edit: I didn't say the eVaro genset runs at a low RPM -- I said it runs at a fixed RPM. The GL-1100 flat-four "pancake" engine (which is used with FVT's cams and intake, etc.) was originally designed as a generator engine I understand, so things have come full circle? They may well be using Atkinson timing and their "fuel vapor technology" (the original name of FVT, which now stands for Future Vehicle Technology). It is a 20kW generator, so I would imagine the RPM would be 3000-3500 or so? It is hardly tiny...

[SlowSRT4]

The Edison2 Very Light Car has similar steel tube and composite panel construction to the eVaro, and the heaviest VLC is under 800 pounds in total. So, the chassis sans the ICE, fuel tank and its transmission and cooling system is probably ~100 pounds lighter. So, the 1,250 is plausible, but maybe it was for the previous version with it's single Azure AC motor? Or, maybe it is w/o the genset?

They have improved the canopy entry, btw. I agree that the aero (at least the details) look to be less good than the Aptera 2e. The VLC, btw is rated also rated of a Cd of 0.15; very similar to the 2e -- part of this due to the fixed struts with airfoil covers.

Edit: I didn't say the eVaro genset runs at a low RPM -- I said it runs at a fixed RPM. The GL-1100 flat-four "pancake" engine (which is used with FVT's cams and intake, etc.) was originally designed as a generator engine I understand, so things have come full circle? They may well be using Atkinson timing and their "fuel vapor technology" (the original name of FVT, which now stands for Future Vehicle Technology). It is a 20kW generator, so I would imagine the RPM would be 3000-3500 or so? It is hardly tiny...
Well, whatever the case is, it simply is not feasible. There is obviously no way that the engine could power the car at 70 mph and produce 120 miles of charge running at 1500 rpm in one hour. At 3000 rpm? I still am skeptical.

And even at 3000 rpm the engine is going to be very loud. Nobody in their right mind is going to be driving for an hour just listening to an engine roaring away at a constant 3000+ rpm.

[rayfellow]

The original Aptera used 6,000 watts to go 60 MPH. If the eVaro has similar weight and drag, then it must be about the same. A Honda generator producing 20,000 watts per hour should be able to propel the vehicle (6,000) and have 12,000 left over to recharge the battery. I know this is rather simplistic but, the numbers add up. Drive two hours (2* 6000 is 12000), then start the generator for one hour to recharge the battery - good for another 2 hours of battery only driving. That's assuming 60mph, flat surface. If you're driving faster, up a hill.. use more.

I will assume that the eVaro team has figured a way to keep the Honda engine quiet and fairly vibration free... they seem to be doing everything else right.

[NeilBlanchard]

Ray, I think you are on the right track! Remember, the 2h was/is supposed to be very similar to the eVaro.

If the eVaro can do 100-120 miles on a 14kWh battery pack, then it's consumption is probably close to the old prototype Aptera, or slightly higher -- say 120Wh/mile? So, a 20kW genset running for 1 hour should be able to do it (on average).

Have you ever heard a Gold Wing motorcycle cruising? They are very smooth and quiet -- the primary balance is excellent. If this one is set up for Atkinson cycle, then it is probably quieter and smoother, since the exhaust flow is less "peaky" since it flows into the other cylinders during the valve overlap. I do not know if there are counterbalancers in the engine, but if there are, they could be very finely tuned, since everything is optimized for the one RPM.

[NmGfan]

The four cylinder 1100cc Gold Wing has been out of production for well over two decades. No counterbalance shafts in that smooth runner. The newer Gold Wings sport a 1800cc flat six, sort of a half size 911 Porsche motor.

:happy0025:

[rayfellow]

The four cylinder 1100cc Gold Wing has been out of production for well over two decades. No counterbalance shafts in that smooth runner. The newer Gold Wings sport a 1800cc flat six, sort of a half size 911 Porsche motor.

:happy0025:
There are any number of good - maybe approprate - ICE out there that would drive a 20,000 watt generator. Personally, I have always been impressed with the flat 4 (or with my BMW MC flat 2) engine. I have owned many BMW motorcycles, and VW's and marvel at the engine. Easy on vibration, w/little needed for counter balancing, it's flat! and takes up little space..

When I heard eVaro using the Honda flat 4, I thought it was a smart move. Hopefully tooling for that engine can dusted off and built again.

[NeilBlanchard]

The X-Prize eVaro has gotten it's new paint:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaronewpaint029.jpg

More images, including a shot of 1/3 of their battery pack are here:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/

[Aptera#1434]

The X-Prize eVaro has gotten it's new paint:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/evaronewpaint029.jpg

More images, including a shot of 1/3 of their battery pack are here:

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/FVT%20eVaro/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the pic Neil; love it!

Still lurking occasionally on this site. Canceled my Aptera reservation over a month ago. Leaf has been ordered.

[evmavin]

Once the late 70's is back in and mattel slaps a sticker on they may sell a dozen. I see parts from at least three cars from that period. All these x-prize cars are a fun exercise but the only one that ever had a serious chance to market in it's present form is Aptera and now that's slim to none. The Myers Duo had a better sales chance and if ever produced above $20K will sell fewer than 100 at best to individuals. All good fun for EV watchers but good luck ever being mass produced. If the Leaf is proven viable there will be many more options and these nice one-off cars will just be a little too late, too bad they were not here six years ago.

If there is a $7500 three-wheel rebate that will change things for a bit, a quick grab on some three-wheeled toys.

All fun stuff though!

[AlfredWAB]

Evaro is still my 1st choice. I think it should be the winner of the Tandem division and don't like the technicality in the xprize rules that eliminated it.
I dropped my reservation for the Aptera a long while ago, bought a Ford Fusion Hybrid. But I still want this Evaro. It is my dream car. :tongue0006:

[RainCaster]

I would put down a deposit on an evaro. I like it better than the Aptera in it's current form. I wonder if I could buy one of the old prototype cars at Aptera's bankruptcy auction?

[PatQ562]

Once the late 70's is back in and mattel slaps a sticker on they may sell a dozen.
Apologies to eVaro fans but couldn't have said it better myself.
Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Brief video of the latest eVaro in action:

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/06c6bcde87db5012ec177032220b7d32/video/18584356

[PatQ562]

I know I've harped on this enough but -- after seeing the video, all it needs is a giant handle and cloth bag and it would look just like my Mom's old Hoover vacuum cleaner.

Pat Q

[rayfellow]

I know I've harped on this enough but -- after seeing the video, all it needs is a giant handle and cloth bag and it would look just like my Mom's old Hoover vacuum cleaner.

Pat Q

I have to agree... it's kinda butt ugly, but... As a hybrid drive train, on other vehicles (small van?), it might be quite efficient.

[NeilBlanchard]

Some big news about the eVaro:

http://www.wheels.ca/article/asset/791746

A North American auto manufacturer with a proposal to build and distribute its plug-in eVaro electric car — which graces the September cover of Popular Mechanics magazine — has approached FVT.

Pratt declined to name the company until a deal is signed, but hinted that an announcement could come sooner than later.

“For our purposes, we wanted to work with a North American company rather than one from offshore,”

[organic]

Odd but not an "American" Company I would guess by the wording. I'm going to guess Brazil's Batista?

Edit: but I guess that's South America?

[NeilBlanchard]

FVT is in British Columbia, Canada; so they may be saying North American to include American and Canadian?

[NeilBlanchard]

A new video of the newest FVT eVaro:

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/76d74b7a120877797def9d80718114f0/video/22514991

[evmavin]

Now that's funny.

[palmer_md]

Now that's funny.

Thank goodness the drag fast forward feature works on this video. It is 5 minutes of the same shot of the car, and a few drive by shots in the middle. Pretty much worthless video at this length. Should be edited down to :30 to 1:00.

[rayfellow]

I like the part where the camera car is on the wrong side of the road, over a double line.

[Mesuge]

In of their recent videos mentioned ~$40k pricetag, I'm wondering what kind of spec it will retain from the xprize model, since that car was using 2x semikron inverters, 2x custom PMSM and high end batt. pack, that's almost the entire budget, you have to add the vehicle, ice, .., hah. The announcement they are going to be picked by major OEM in NA is encourgaing, good luck.

[randyd]

I hope the whining/clicking noise was the camera car. It was like fingernails on the blackboard for me.

[Grendal]

Not exactly the quiet peaceful sounds of a BEV. Lots of wheezing, grinding, and clicking. I don't think most of the sound was coming from ICE either...

I wish it had made it through a little more of the X-prize so we could have a better idea of it's specs.

[palmer_md]

The sound was from the camera vehicle which I believe was a motorcycle. It sounds very much like a kawasaki 1100 or something like that.

[PatQ562]

In of their recent videos mentioned ~$40k pricetag, I'm wondering what kind of spec it will retain from the xprize model, since that car was using 2x semikron inverters, 2x custom PMSM and high end batt. pack, that's almost the entire budget, you have to add the vehicle, ice, .., hah.
Any start up faces the hurdle of selling for what the market will bear, while building volume to the point that costs get reasonable. They can expect to lose money initially. It's especially difficult when competing in a highly mature industry with a century of cost optimization. Aptera's initial $24M nest egg promised some leeway along these lines but it's been consumed with no production to show for it.
The only option for most entrants is to KEEP IT SIMPLE and play to the dedicated fans. The basic package and its performance must appeal to early adopters (ie lean and efficient). Add the bells and whistles after building some volume, to maintain momentum. I was leery of Aptera over-reaching even under Team A, who felt it necessary to have electric door latches, deluxe electronic amenities, etc etc before they had shipped a single vehicle.
Pat Q

[AlfredWAB]

Excerpts from the Latest E-mail from the guys at FVT

Revenue Road


It took some time for the team to recover from the X Prize competition so the shop was a little quiet for while. For the past 4 years FVT has been intensely focused on developing game-changing technologies and a remarkable vehicle. I remember last December several of us put in over 300 hours in the month. Our efforts have produced one of the world's most remarkable and efficient vehicles along with some of the best electric vehicle technology on the planet. It is refreshing to know we are now heading down a new path for the company called "Revenue Road".


We already have contracts in place for design and engineering services along with several orders for our batteries and battery management system. We have developed a very special set of technologies and abilities and now have the opportunity to share them with customers around the world bringing more electric vehicles to market. This is a very exciting time for our investors and the FVT Team.
From the net


We now have a total of 4 potential manufacturers for the eVaro. This is a very interesting time for the automotive industry. More and more companies are taking advantage of new technologies, lean manufacturing and strategic partnerships to bring EV's to the market in new and creative ways.

Stay tuned for many more announcements as they come to fruition.

[PatQ562]

It's great that eVaro is getting interest in their technology. Of course, they, like so many other EVs we have been tracking, have not published any 3rd party verification, or even their own performance data, in a form that can be scrutinized and evaluated, and they didn't make it thru XPrize, for what little that has turned out to be worth.
Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's a preview of a 2 hour video -- there are several pauses with a black screen; just let it keep playing.

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/Showpage.aspx?sid=29631

[JustWilliam]

Thanks Neil! My DVR is set!

[c0mp13x]

Thanks for the heads-up Neil, looks like a great show. I've set my DVR (right next to my series recording of Cafe Racer (http://www.caferacertv.com))!

:wavey:

[NeilBlanchard]

FVT has done a full overhaul on their web page, and there is a lot of new, more specific information:

http://www.futurevehicletechnologies.com/index.php?

[PatQ562]

Lots of capabilities offered for hire, and it's good to see a wide range of power targets (AC Propulsion only seems interested in the 200kW market which is Tesla territory). The Evaro, with 125 mile claimed electric range, makes one wonder about deleting the genset for lower weight and cost. Weight is 2250 lbs (sim to Aptera) and so is efficiency at about 160-200wh/mile. Time for an updated body style in my opinion.
Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Pat,

I'm fairly certain that they are going to offer it with and without the genset. And I think the eVaro is more efficient than the Aptera? 125 miles on 21kWh vs 100 miles on about the same battery pack? (I'm am sad to say I can't remember the size of the S-01 battery pack?)

I've been corresponding with George Parker, and they are working on improvements in their motors and the genset. The one spec that they don't mention is that the gas tank is just 2.2 US gallons, so to get ~300+ miles from the genset is already impressive.

I agree that aerodynamic drag is the most important factor to overall efficiency -- weight is not as critical, since the kinetic energy can be partially regained by coasting and/or regenerative braking. I think FVT has done an outstanding job on the drivetrain, especially with the regeneration.

When I get a prototype CarBEN EV built, I hope to work with FVT to put in an all electric drivetrain. If I "only" match the eVaro for Wh/mile, that would give the CarBEN EV about 320 miles range; based on the 54kWh vs 21 kWh pack size...

[rayfellow]

I am imagining the Evaro drive train in all kinds of different vehicles; like the CarBEN, or even a utility van. For my taste, the Evaro body is... not pleasant to look at. I wonder just how aerodynamic the body is.

I was encouraged by their new web site with the many Genset applications.

[PatQ562]

And I think the eVaro is more efficient than the Aptera? 125 miles on 21kWh vs 100 miles on about the same battery pack? (I'm am sad to say I can't remember the size of the S-01 battery pack?)

Given the inherent ambiguities of self-reported numbers, I would credit both vehicles with "about" 200 mpge, when driving carefully, equating to about 175 wh/mi. Given the similar weights and net aero drag (Aptera sleeker, eVaro smaller frontal area), this should make sense. Aptera "virtually effectively just about" got 200mpge at the X-prize which appears to be as close as we've gotten to seeing some actual data. Both have similar 20kWh packs - and either car's range could vary at least 25% depending on speed.

Pat Q

[shotgunslade]

Any news on the Evaro? It certainly showed the best technology at the X-Prize, even its looks lacked universal appeal. Their website is completely mum about plans for producing the car.

[NeilBlanchard]

I have been occasionally exchanging emails with George Parker, and the most recent news is they are doing a lot of development work for other companies, and they have had a lot of interest in the eVaro. Production is planned but they need investors to ramp up. They were featured in a Canadian Discovery Channel show recently; as noted on their web page.

[PatQ562]

The big problem with Evaro, NMG, Arcimoto, Li-ion, etc etc is that they are small startups trying to enter a very demanding market with no funding. Their chances of ever producing usable breakthrough products are less than average. What makes the Aptera story an almost criminal tragedy is that they HAD funding - enough to support a large and creative design staff for several years, driven by the vision of a passionate founder. It looked like they might make it over the hump into at least small scale production of a truly radical vehicle, but now under the "professional" management team, the money is gone with little or nothing to show for it.

The eVaro system remains somewhat untested and undocumented. There are still basic questions about their direct-coupled motors (and ICE technology) that anyone familiar with power technology would want answered.

Pat Q

[SlowSRT4]

The eVaro is also the least practical vehicle; referring to ingress/egress, lack of rear window, windows don't open, low ride height, etc.

[AlfredWAB]

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=xmgkvkcab&v=001-9B9G95DKuoRew2pYqC_z89_dBViqdg49osvDvXViyTkyJFIP5r 0Xia7nnnN1p5x0o77H8_QTgAlWF7w4gMDs69v7lbjTUBZkfFuN QGTDts%3D

Traditionally, Ontario is the center of Canada's automotive development and production, but with west coast enthusiasm earning an Automotive Partnership Canada (APC) grant of $1.38 million, a slight "shift" might be in the works. Simon Fraser University, in collaboration with Future Vehicle Technologies, was awarded an APC grant to research how the excess heat from electric vehicles can be better controlled and managed. The full scope of the project involves a thermodynamics study of hybrid electric vehicles to develop new innovations for electric drive systems, battery packs, and air conditioning. This will be one of the first complete studies of electric vehicle thermodynamics at a fundamental, scientific level and sees SFU and FVT join Toyota, Ballard, and Bombardier to be awarded funding from APC.

Still my favorite car from the x-prize.

[Adreitz]

Though I like the Aptera better, I've been interested in the eVaro as long as I've known about it. I received the above letter from them yesterday. It's good to hear something from them, but it's also disheartening that it has been months since they have communicated anything about their vehicle (as opposed to other EV-related info, Discovery Channel show, etc.).

Aaron