No Aptera? Guess I'll take a Focus Electric in 2011...

[c0mp13x]

Aptera, MiEV, Leaf, Volt, Think, Meyers, Coda, et al... seen 'em all, none are perfect and many are ugly. If Aptera can't produce, I'm buyin' elsewhere.

I want a EV and if Ford can pull this off in 2011 (as a 2012 model), this is a very attractive possibility. Something like: 100 mile range, 0-60 in 10 seconds, 5 seats and ~$30k?

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/01/11/detroit-2010-2012-ford-focus-electric-could-be-both-sedan-and-h/

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/01/14/abg-quick-drive-ford-focus-ev-mule-w-video/

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/news/car/10q1/2012_ford_focus-auto_shows/gallery/2012_ford_focus_sedan_photo_8/3159371-1-eng-US/2012_ford_focus_08_cd_gallery.jpg

:thumbsup:

[KarenRei]

Where's the $30k number coming from?

That thing's going to require a big battery pack.

[Rhodomel]

After tax rebates the volt is rumored to be in the high 20k$ to
- low $30k.

[KarenRei]

Last I heard, they were saying around $32k for the Volt after rebate. It's actually been pretty stable for a while.

But the Focus is going to need a much larger battery pack than 16kWh.

[jcodeglia]

Hey, it's not ugly!

[evmavin]

The focus needs to be over 33 KWH to get a real 100 mile range, OVER 33.

[wcabdefense]

http://www.gizmag.com/ford-outlines-aggressive-ev-strategy-battery-electric-small-car-in-2011/10739/


The Battery Electric test vehicles are powered by a 100 kW three-phase alternating current (AC) permanent-magnet, chassis-mounted electric traction motor which drives through a single speed gearbox with a 5.4:1 final drive ratio with standard planetary differential centre. There is a boot mounted 23 kilowatt hours lithium-ion battery pack that is good for a range of 80 miles (130kms) on a single charge. The Ford Focus EV can be charged from either a standard 220-volt in 6 hours or 110-volt in 12 hours. Ford and Magna are targeting a range of up to 100 miles when the vehicle is introduced to the retail market.

[evmavin]

http://www.gizmag.com/ford-outlines-aggressive-ev-strategy-battery-electric-small-car-in-2011/10739/

One key detail missing, at what speed? And there are statements their that allude to the pack size changing just like Nissan. This is a sly marketing tactic that keeps them from revealing competitive efficiency numbers and gives them and open to change things. 22 KWH pack @ 70MPH does not equal 80-100 miles in that car, not unless they have a one year pack life for 100% DOD cycling.

[roflwaffle]

What chemistry besides LA is going to die after ~300+ cycles?

[aptera1213]

it is nice looking (surprisingly i like the sedan more than the hatchback...usually it is the opposite)...

it has been added to my EVs to watch...

[speculawyer]

One key detail missing, at what speed? And there are statements their that allude to the pack size changing just like Nissan. This is a sly marketing tactic that keeps them from revealing competitive efficiency numbers and gives them and open to change things. 22 KWH pack @ 70MPH does not equal 80-100 miles in that car, not unless they have a one year pack life for 100% DOD cycling.
Yeah, it is really tough to build full-sized normal car EVs that do highway speeds.
They are big & heavy, so they require big battery packs. And big battery packs make them even more heavy. And more expensive. And even if you don't mind paying for a very big expensive battery, the resulting car will require 220V in order to charge in a reasonable amount of time.

I'm really starting to think that EVs should take off in Europe much faster than in the USA. They have the high gas taxes that push people towards EVs. They have governments that want to do something about climate change. They generally have shorter commutes. They are used to driving smaller cars. And they already have 240V service in all their outlets.

The only downside is that single family houses with garages are probably not as prevalent. Apartment/townhouse parking structures are not as conducive for adding a charging infrastructure.

[RainCaster]

I would love to have an Audi e-tron. The one shown in Detroit looks very muscular, although the specs are a bit puzzling.
http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/Media/425x255/12/129103a99522466eaba8deee1864290a.jpg

[aptera1213]

the e-tron is sex on wheels...that thing is gorgeous...

heck, i would take that easy over the tesla sports car

that said, it will be around 150,000

so out of my budget for sure...

[hill]

Focus? Like there's any more or less likelihood it'll be in production than the apters. I'm sticking with plan "A". Who ever is first gets the business.

.

[aptera1213]

the funny thing about the focus is, very quietly and seemingly out of nowhere, they are mentioned as probably being first to market...even ahead of the LEAF...at least for the average consumer...

as with all things EV....time will tell

[c0mp13x]

Where's the $30k number coming from?
I pulled that number completely out of my BACKSIDE!

Something like: 100 mile range, 0-60 in 10 seconds, 5 seats and ~$30k?
Ok... do note that I preceded my statement with "Something like:", tempered it with a "~" and then finished with the all-encompassing "?".


But anyways... here's my math, let me know how far off I am:

PLUS $s: Current Focus retails for $17k-20k and Ford want the new car to represent the same price range; the new Fiesta (smaller) will be $14k-18k and the current Fusion (bigger) is $20k-28k, topping out with the Fusion Hybrid. In addition, philosophically, Ford management has expressed the want for the entire Focus family to be "affordable".

MINUS $s: ICE drivetrain: throw out the engine, transmission, smog equipment, exhaust system with Cats, fuel tank, etc.

PLUS $s: Electric drivetrain with ~23kWh battery (as used in the Magna Focus mule).

MINUS $s: Economies of Scale: the new Focus is a world platform designed with both ICE and EV drivetrains in mind. It benefits immensely from Ford's economies of scale, something Aptera, the Volt, the MiEV and even the Leaf can not approach. Think about specific Focus body-units produced, Ford wants to make 200k!

MINUS $s: All EV incentives, I live in California and may get some extra here (along with a HOV lane sticker :thumbsup:).

MINUS $s: Ford's on a roll, and they want to kick GM's, Chrysler's and even Toyota's arse. They are highly motivated to get the Focus Electric out quickly and show the world they are not only a big-time alternative fuel vehicle manufacturer... but now a leader. If they really start to produce the Focus Electric in 2011, they'll have my attention!


So... is ~$30k crazy?

:wavey:

[KarenRei]

23kWh wouldn't get you 100 real-world highway miles on a car like this, and good EV drivetrains are very expensive right now. Even a cheap AC system will run you $10k or so.

That said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ford emerges as a dark horse candidate in the US EV market.

[roflwaffle]

To be fair, 23kWh could get ~100 real-world highway miles if someone stays around ~60-65mph. Most drivers wouldn't see this, but there are some who drive at that speed in th real world.

[KarenRei]

For something like a Focus, I wouldn't even expect that.

By the way -- here's a really crazy idea that I've never seen implemented: rear wheel covers as an optional accessory, . Seriously -- why hasn't anyone done this (to the best of my knowledge)? Right with all of the other optional features, for an EV, you could have something like:

"Rear wheel covers: Adds 5-10 miles to your range. $250"

Wouldn't that eliminate the entire argument about aesthetics vs. function, by letting the customer choose? That way, they could leave the covers off in all the ads if they're concerned, but still boast of the range with them on.

[evmavin]

To be fair, 23kWh could get ~100 real-world highway miles if someone stays around ~60-65mph. Most drivers wouldn't see this, but there are some who drive at that speed in th real world.


60 MPH and 100 miles with a 23kwh pack in that car with a DOD that is in line with an auto makers standards for longevity, I just don't see it, they are using 80% DOD. The MINI E is even 35kwh. The leaf is completely unrealistic as well, expect the pack size to go up on both or the numbers to go down or there will be very angry customers. They must be using the same metric as the leaf to get those numbers. Based on their numbers it uses 190 wh per mile, at a freeway speed, that must be at 55 MPH on flat ground. I would estimate more in the 60-70 mile range.

[aptera1213]

though i really like the looks of the new ford focus sedan, i still think most automakers are missing the point and the "focus" of their early EV attempts

ford should be making the fiesta into its first EV, not the focus.

the fiesta is smaller, lighter and more aerodynamic...

honda should be making its fit into an EV....well that or the EV-N...that is the only car that if it and an aptera were both for sale, well it might make me buy it instead of the aptera...it is just toooooo cute (yes, aero is out the window...but LOOK at it....it's like a pokemon you can sit in and will take you to work)

http://images-2.drive.com.au/2009/10/01/764289/hondaEV_N_7_L-600x400.jpg


of course honda won't make it but will instead make the accord an EV or something like that...

grrrr...small and light and aero for the first EVs....then as batteries improve and all that, make the bigger cars EVs slowly over time...

[KarenRei]

Honda's not planning on making an EV until 2015. They're probably the most anti-EV major automaker out there.

[aptera1213]

yeah, i know...i don't understand...

well i also know they got taken in by the hydrogen 3 card monty game...

but look at that EV-N....awwwwwww


over the years i have learned to hate concept cars...they always break my heart...either they don't get made, or when they do get made they look and drive nothing like the concept car looked or performed....

[KarenRei]

It is cute. ;)

Honda also has an additional reason, besides hydrogen hype, to play down EVs, and it's the same one Toyota has. Honda is #2 in the hybrid realm (with Toyota being #1). They already have the green crowd cornered concerning hybrids. They don't and can't have the EV market cornered. So if the green crowd flees hybrids to EVs, they stand to lose out, even if they throw their hat into the ring and release an EV or two.

For now, it's in their best interests to portray EVs as "not ready yet".

[evmavin]

It is cute. ;)

Honda also has an additional reason, besides hydrogen hype, to play down EVs, and it's the same one Toyota has. Honda is #2 in the hybrid realm (with Toyota being #1). They already have the green crowd cornered concerning hybrids. They don't and can't have the EV market cornered. So if the green crowd flees hybrids to EVs, they stand to lose out, even if they throw their hat into the ring and release an EV or two.

For now, it's in their best interests to portray EVs as "not ready yet".


Exactly, not ready in the public eye but ready behind the curtain in some cases. Some of these guys are playing dumb all the way to release date. I want a RWD Toyota IQ with a 100KW motor for city driving fun.

[KarenRei]

Certainly in Toyota's case that seems quite likely.

[Apt3448]

It is cute. ;)



It's a Fiat 500 remake! So small, when it first came out with seat belts, we joked it doubled as a backpack.

[evmavin]

It's a Fiat 500 remake! So small, when it first came out with seat belts, we joked it doubled as a backpack.


Actually, there were several honda micro or compact car styles which I think this was modeled after, here is one example:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Honda_600.jpg

[roflwaffle]

For something like a Focus, I wouldn't even expect that.

By the way -- here's a really crazy idea that I've never seen implemented: rear wheel covers as an optional accessory, . Seriously -- why hasn't anyone done this (to the best of my knowledge)? Right with all of the other optional features, for an EV, you could have something like:

"Rear wheel covers: Adds 5-10 miles to your range. $250"

Wouldn't that eliminate the entire argument about aesthetics vs. function, by letting the customer choose? That way, they could leave the covers off in all the ads if they're concerned, but still boast of the range with them on.W/ 23kWh usable I think it could pull 100 miles at 60mph, but I'm not sure if it has 23kWh usable or something less. I'd love custom aeromods, but manufacturers are complaining about stop/start systems because they won't show up much in the EPA tests, even when the dealers could make a profit off of them. If they think it's too much work they won't bother. That's why (IMO) they tend to stay away from belly pans. They just add more labor for service, and lower consumer costs is not what auto manufacturers are in the business of.

[evmavin]

W/ 23kWh usable I think it could pull 100 miles at 60mph, but I'm not sure if it has 23kWh usable or something less. I'd love custom aeromods, but manufacturers are complaining about stop/start systems because they won't show up much in the EPA tests, even when the dealers could make a profit off of them. If they think it's too much work they won't bother. That's why (IMO) they tend to stay away from belly pans. They just add more labor for service, and lower consumer costs is not what auto manufacturers are in the business of.


THey are using 19KWH as stated in my earlier post which is still about an 80% DOD which is a deep cycle.

[roflwaffle]

60 MPH and 100 miles with a 23kwh pack in that car with a DOD that is in line with an auto makers standards for longevity, I just don't see it, they are using 80% DOD. The MINI E is even 35kwh. The leaf is completely unrealistic as well, expect the pack size to go up on both or the numbers to go down or there will be very angry customers. They must be using the same metric as the leaf to get those numbers. Based on their numbers it uses 190 wh per mile, at a freeway speed, that must be at 55 MPH on flat ground. I would estimate more in the 60-70 mile range.The Mini E is also limited to 80% of capacity IIRC, so that's only 28kWh usable, but it still pulls ~100 miles highway according to BMW. Didn't ABG report that the Focus EV could pull ~75 miles real world city? The Focus also has a lower CdA than the Mini, but it's not a huge difference, only ~15% or so. If we're looking at 23kWh of usable energy I think it (60mph cruise) might be doable, but if it's only ~18kWh then I think you're right.

[roflwaffle]

THey are using 19KWH as stated in my earlier post which is still about an 80% DOD which is a deep cycle.I'm not seeing the link to Ford using 19kWh.

[evmavin]

I did not post one but you can use google, besides the are not going to cycle the pack past 80%.

[roflwaffle]

Found it (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/12/08/la-2009-ford-focus-bev-update/)! Also has the reference ~70 miles of real world city range.

Still, w/ a brick of an SUV at ~290Wh/mile (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ltKHpBnX2-YJ:avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav96.pdf+rav4+ev+wh/mile&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuweO8ZuAYEl_IXfmyUemn07qJgExeWqEkoftH D66zX4lFvh9BhX7xkyeclsHTJPHKY4cGiV8Xa-3jn6G1sNNiltY577T8jTBWTt-bxzqyihWxJydbl2xAXnj-6g00hUzNOytS&sig=AHIEtbRf-ojQvFzulsvVj10SBdxzj-jOKw) at a steady 60mph, I'm thinking ~190-200Wh/mile from the pack is possible considering a Focus has ~15% less reference area and a much lower drag coefficient.

[evmavin]

Found it (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/12/08/la-2009-ford-focus-bev-update/)! Also has the reference ~70 miles of real world city range.

Still, w/ a brick of an SUV at ~290Wh/mile (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ltKHpBnX2-YJ:avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav96.pdf+rav4+ev+wh/mile&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuweO8ZuAYEl_IXfmyUemn07qJgExeWqEkoftH D66zX4lFvh9BhX7xkyeclsHTJPHKY4cGiV8Xa-3jn6G1sNNiltY577T8jTBWTt-bxzqyihWxJydbl2xAXnj-6g00hUzNOytS&sig=AHIEtbRf-ojQvFzulsvVj10SBdxzj-jOKw) at a steady 60mph, I'm thinking ~190-200Wh/mile from the pack is possible considering a Focus has ~15% less reference area and a much lower drag coefficient.


70 is more realistic and not 100. The focus is not going to be a light weight car either.

[roflwaffle]

70 is more realistic and not 100. The focus is not going to be a light weight car either.Fer sure less range tends to be more realistic. People drive like they're late to their own funeral for the most part. Sometimes they get there early because of it. :(

Anyway, a Focus EV doesn't have to be lightweight. Even if it weighed as much as the old LA RAV-4 EV, and had the same drag coefficient, the difference in reference area alone cuts the energy needed at a 60mph cruise by ~30Wh/mile. I can't find any info on the RAV-4 Cd, but if it's anywhere near .4-.45, which is pretty common for older boxy vehicles, then w/ ~290Wh/mile at 60mph for it, that puts a Focus EV at ~200Wh/mile at 60mph. If they can get down to 190Wh/mile, then they can hit 100 miles on 19kWh. Even if they can't, it's still pretty close to 100 miles at 60mph, and at a 55mph cruise it's probably 100 miles.

[KarenRei]

RAV4EV didn't get 290Wh/mi highway. If I recall correctly, the official rating worked out to 340Wh/mi highway (as an EV, it did notably better in city driving). And that was not with the revised cycles. And the RAV4 is one of the more aero SUVs. Depending on the model, the gasoline 2003 RAV4s got between 25 and 28mpg highway.

The Focus EV will not get 200 Wh/mi highway, or particularly close to that. That's barely above what the EV1 used on the highway.

[evmavin]

RAV4EV didn't get 290Wh/mi highway. If I recall correctly, the official rating worked out to 340Wh/mi highway (as an EV, it did notably better in city driving). And that was not with the revised cycles. And the RAV4 is one of the more aero SUVs. Depending on the model, the gasoline 2003 RAV4s got between 25 and 28mpg highway.

The Focus EV will not get 200 Wh/mi highway, or particularly close to that. That's barely above what the EV1 used on the highway.


1. Internet figures are rarely accurate
2. No way will the focus be 200 Wh/mile as Karen states
3. This type of comparative estimating is not accurate and misses other variables
4. Even with proven driving straight on flat ground, once there is the slightest incline in the road those consumption numbers go up up fast and very high when the car weighs a bit, much much more in fact! Ask an experienced EV driver with a mid-weight EV.

"Lab" and calculator based specs in the EV world seldom translate to reality and then you need to do the "real world" conversion on that, even for efficient drivers. I'll easily take a pizza bet on this one as it's easy eats:)

[Stunt Driver]

After tax rebates the volt is rumored to be in the high 20k$ to
- low $30k.

you would think new tax rebates will apply to Aptera as well?

But for now all you get back is 10%, which will not make volt high 20's.

[roflwaffle]

RAV4EV didn't get 290Wh/mi highway. If I recall correctly, the official rating worked out to 340Wh/mi highway (as an EV, it did notably better in city driving). And that was not with the revised cycles. And the RAV4 is one of the more aero SUVs. Depending on the model, the gasoline 2003 RAV4s got between 25 and 28mpg highway.

The Focus EV will not get 200 Wh/mi highway, or particularly close to that. That's barely above what the EV1 used on the highway.The RAV4 EV used 289Wh/mile (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ltKHpBnX2-YJ:avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav96.pdf+rav4+ev+wh/mile&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuweO8ZuAYEl_IXfmyUemn07qJgExeWqEkoftH D66zX4lFvh9BhX7xkyeclsHTJPHKY4cGiV8Xa-3jn6G1sNNiltY577T8jTBWTt-bxzqyihWxJydbl2xAXnj-6g00hUzNOytS&sig=AHIEtbRf-ojQvFzulsvVj10SBdxzj-jOKw) at 60mph. The EV1 used 164Wh/mile (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:aooMCyvR8k4J:avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/genmot.pdf+ev1+wh/mile&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShQsWszidp26o-YoRH9aCLA1qyB2jnRHhTWPN_FhyYEnn3nS42l2N5-HIuyowQWFyYRkwZeEJ0jQWtEacvDRlBhFBgmMYypgMZlDcIWZZ v0qtHLjygUWM5zRUrLBM9i0TWa3C4z&sig=AHIEtbQk4nSmypHUiay7sfed4L81yAQ47A) at 60mph. Now, I'm not sure where exactly a Focus EV would end up, but at the very least I'm sure it'll be between ~290Wh/mile and ~160Wh/mile. The drivetrain efficiency of a modern production EV will probably be better than what the EV1/RAV4 EV were at, and using lithium batteries instead of LA will almost certainly improve efficiency, although I can't accurately estimate (offhand I'm guessing it would be at least a ~10% improvement, w/ a lithium powered RAV4 probably seeing ~260Wh/mile) how much w/o knowing the Peukert's exponent of the LA batteries used. Considering a LA RAV4 EV only needs ~289Wh/mile at 60mph, I think it's possible a Focus EV can approach ~200Wh/mile at 60mph since it has ~15% less in the way of reference area, a lot less in the way of drag, a more efficient battery pack, and probably a more efficient motor/controller, but w/ ~19kWh usable I don't think 100 miles is a slam dunk like it would be w/ ~24kWh usable.

[evmavin]

The RAV4 EV used 289Wh/mile (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ltKHpBnX2-YJ:avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav96.pdf+rav4+ev+wh/mile&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShuweO8ZuAYEl_IXfmyUemn07qJgExeWqEkoftH D66zX4lFvh9BhX7xkyeclsHTJPHKY4cGiV8Xa-3jn6G1sNNiltY577T8jTBWTt-bxzqyihWxJydbl2xAXnj-6g00hUzNOytS&sig=AHIEtbRf-ojQvFzulsvVj10SBdxzj-jOKw) at 60mph. The EV1 used 164Wh/mile (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:aooMCyvR8k4J:avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/genmot.pdf+ev1+wh/mile&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShQsWszidp26o-YoRH9aCLA1qyB2jnRHhTWPN_FhyYEnn3nS42l2N5-HIuyowQWFyYRkwZeEJ0jQWtEacvDRlBhFBgmMYypgMZlDcIWZZ v0qtHLjygUWM5zRUrLBM9i0TWa3C4z&sig=AHIEtbQk4nSmypHUiay7sfed4L81yAQ47A) at 60mph. Now, I'm not sure where exactly a Focus EV would end up, but at the very least I'm sure it'll be between ~290Wh/mile and ~160Wh/mile. The drivetrain efficiency of a modern production EV will probably be better than what the EV1/RAV4 EV were at, and using lithium batteries instead of LA will almost certainly improve efficiency, although I can't accurately estimate (offhand I'm guessing it would be at least a ~10% improvement, w/ a lithium powered RAV4 probably seeing ~260Wh/mile) how much w/o knowing the Peukert's exponent of the LA batteries used. Considering a LA RAV4 EV only needs ~289Wh/mile at 60mph, I think it's possible a Focus EV can approach ~200Wh/mile at 60mph since it has ~15% less in the way of reference area, a lot less in the way of drag, a more efficient battery pack, and probably a more efficient motor/controller, but w/ ~19kWh usable I don't think 100 miles is a slam dunk like it would be w/ ~24kWh usable.


You are getting your figures from postings on the web not actual real world testing and from experienced users. Your are making the same relative comparisons for inaccurate facts with no baseline or defined standards. They could squeeze 100 miles at a max of 60 with 24 kwh to zero DOD but that is still under optimal conditions. In my opinion cycling to 80% DOD for 19 kwh is aggressive on the pack regardless of what the mfg "paper" results on pack life are. I suspect you have not driven an EV at freeway speeds and monitored the variances in consumption as even small changes in speed and grade make exponential changes in consumption. Real world driving needs to average these extreme peaks which almost all drivers of EVs will not be able to avoid without uncompromising driving skills and monitoring. Driving an EV is a shocking lesson in power consumption and efficiency for most.

If the LEAF and a 24 kwh stated pack were to do the listed 100 miles of real world range for even a conservative and experienced driver, I would buy it in a heat beat. I remember in the early days of this forum when the Aptera stated 100 miles range with a 10 kwh pack and everyone was arguing that was possible, then suddenly it seemed to go to 17-22 for the same 100 miles.

[KarenRei]

Indeed, in my modelling of the Tesla Roadster, I saw those sort of fluctuations you speak of in the videos my driver took. What may look like a flat road and steady speed to you doesn't necessarily to your motor! :) For an accurate model, you *must* take that into account.

To be fair for the Aptera, that was assuming a constant 55mph, 1 passenger, no payload, no accessories. I don't think many (if any) thought they'd get that in real-world highway driving. Also, the number was "120 miles". ;) As the vehicle matured, they had to change the 55mph number to "10-13kWh". The 17-20kWh number was for a different metric -- full passengers, full payload, accessories, and much higher speeds.

[aptera1213]

ha, and i thought the new focus was a bit big for ford's first EV (should still be the fiesta...or heck an even smaller car)...

GM is talking about making a Volt EV model...

gah, do they just not understand?? the volt makes sense as a hybrid...people get some EV qualities, but don't have to worry about range...it is a way for some people to dip their toes in the EV market, so to speak

but the volt is big and heavy...and making it an EV will make it even heavier...

GM, make a small, light EV for now for city commuters...later, in a few years, as batteries improve, then make a bigger EV or the volt into an EV...

but now?? is idiots too strong a word?

[evmavin]

ha, and i thought the new focus was a bit big for ford's first EV (should still be the fiesta...or heck an even smaller car)...

GM is talking about making a Volt EV model...

gah, do they just not understand?? the volt makes sense as a hybrid...people get some EV qualities, but don't have to worry about range...it is a way for some people to dip their toes in the EV market, so to speak

but the volt is big and heavy...and making it an EV will make it even heavier...

GM, make a small, light EV for now for city commuters...later, in a few years, as batteries improve, then make a bigger EV or the volt into an EV...

but now?? is idiots too strong a word?


Exactly, it's a pig and they could have made an easy full EV, guess making a pack work made them realize it's possible again.

[SlowSRT4]

Now I'm excited for this supposed EV only Volt. I might just wait for that version, even though the range extender could really come in handy.

I don't understand the hate towards it being not a subcompact. These vehicles still aren't Escalades or something. The Volt is about the size of a Prius, it is quite small actually. The Focus is of course quite small.

If the range is adequate and the price is right (due to the volume that Ford/GM can put out, especially Ford using the new Focus which is a worldwide platform), then that should be the major concern. Heck, you can carry more people/stuff in these normal-sized cars at least. I would love an Aptera because it is very cool, but I'll admit I'm not super-concerned about whether I would get 300 MPGe or 180 MPGe. Just because I currently get like 25 mpg, so anything that high seems great, and price/availability/practicality is more of a concern for me anyway.

[KarenRei]

Do note that the difference between efficiency in EVs not only impacts the environment, but also pack replacement costs and recharge times.

[evmavin]

Do note that the difference between efficiency in EVs not only impacts the environment, but also pack replacement costs and recharge times.


Not to mention your electric bill!

[SlowSRT4]

Do note that the difference between efficiency in EVs not only impacts the environment, but also pack replacement costs and recharge times.
That's true, but if the price was right, you would have 100k miles before you needed replacement. Battery costs might be lower in roughly 10 years.

[aptera1213]

price...

to push that much weight you will need lots of batteries

if the volt that takes you 40 miles on a charge is 40 grand, then a volt that takes you 100 miles on a charge will be in tesla s money range...

[roflwaffle]

You are getting your figures from postings on the web not actual real world testing and from experienced users. Your are making the same relative comparisons for inaccurate facts with no baseline or defined standards.I'm getting my figures from United States Department of Energy tests. I don't see why the DOE would lie about a RAV4 EV sucking down 289Wh/mile at 60mph on flat ground and all that, but if you think the DOE is falsifying information, feel free to prove it. Otherwise, cut out the Fox Newz style posts. ;)
They could squeeze 100 miles at a max of 60 with 24 kwh to zero DOD but that is still under optimal conditions. In my opinion cycling to 80% DOD for 19 kwh is aggressive on the pack regardless of what the mfg "paper" results on pack life are.

I suspect you have not driven an EV at freeway speeds and monitored the variances in consumption as even small changes in speed and grade make exponential changes in consumption. Real world driving needs to average these extreme peaks which almost all drivers of EVs will not be able to avoid without uncompromising driving skills and monitoring. Driving an EV is a shocking lesson in power consumption and efficiency for most.

If the LEAF and a 24 kwh stated pack were to do the listed 100 miles of real world range for even a conservative and experienced driver, I would buy it in a heat beat. I remember in the early days of this forum when the Aptera stated 100 miles range with a 10 kwh pack and everyone was arguing that was possible, then suddenly it seemed to go to 17-22 for the same 100 miles.Like I said before, I think it's possible for a Focus EV to see or get close to ~100 miles at 60mph w/ 19kWh since it'll be using a drivetrain/pack that's ~20 years more advanced than the LA pack and it also has a much lower drag coefficient. It may not be possible in all weather conditions, but that wasn't what I was referring to in my initial post. Real world conditions in a San Diego winter aren't the same as real world conditions in a Juno winter, but like I said before, given the info from the DOE, I think it may be possible for a Focus EV to pull ~100 miles at 60mph in at least some real world conditions.

[SlowSRT4]

price...

to push that much weight you will need lots of batteries

if the volt that takes you 40 miles on a charge is 40 grand, then a volt that takes you 100 miles on a charge will be in tesla s money range...
They could leave it at 40; or go to 60 or 80.

In the other thread some people were basically just complaining that the Volt had an ICE, now it seems like they will make a Volt without one, so problem solved.

Don't just assume everything about the Volt will be bad, let's keep an open mind here people. :sad0126:

[aptera1213]

i think the volt as an EV is fine in about 5 years...but that it shouldn't be GMs first EV..

wait for batteries to improve and get cheaper, then make the volt an EV

till then GM should make a smaller EV model

volt for families and some commuting and some long travel

smaller GM EV for true commuting

the Volt EV will not do well if it comes out in 2 years and costs 50 grand

till prices come down with volume, and til battery efficiency improves (both will happen), EVs really are commuter cars only