Edison2 Very Light Car

[SEGsby]

I think it's a much better lookin' vehicle after Jason cleaned it up... Thanks for posting this.

What usually makes or break a design for me, is how the headlights / running lights are implemented. Those items are so key to giving a vehicle its distinctive look, project a personality and help form an overall aesthetic...

I think surface flush LED lighting will look sweet on this. Can't wait to see it.

[Jas11]

Just wait...

The model Neil posted was a shape defined purely by the aerodynamics, and represent one early phase. I only assisted in some window graphics for this model.

There were/are more evolutions after this one, and the latest will raise the bar beyond what you expect.

Jason

[SEGsby]

Schweeeeeeet!!!! :)

[BryanSR]

I like it too!!!!!!!!

[c0mp13x]

Great to have Jason commenting here, so Jas11... when do you think we'll see a updated version of the VLC? 2 weeks, a month, 6 months?

Your 'Design by 11' fans are anxious! Ha

:thumbsup:

[Tkaypro]

I too cannot wait to see your design blended with the VLC... Keep us posted on viewings, press or even teasers.

-Tricia

[shotgunslade]

Most important questions: Where can I put down a deposit and when can I pick it up?

[palmer_md]

You might have to purchase one in China or Germany and import it...

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/11/why-china-could-get-americas-most-fuel-efficient-car-before-us/

[Grendal]

According to the article it looks like we're in the same boat. Someone needs to actually begin making the things. Kuttner clearly says he's got the ideas but doesn't want to build the VLC because he's not a manufacturer. He's waiting on someone to step in and do that. Where's an Elon Musk that wants hyper-efficiency? It looks like it may be a long wait...

That 30K Tesla's looking better and better to me...

[shotgunslade]

You might have to purchase one in China or Germany and import it...


Ah ha. The fallacy of blaming job creation failure on the "guvment." If the US doesn't have the manufacturing cojones to manufacture this car, I have no problem with buying it from China.

I'm a consulting engineer involved with the design of high performance buildings. I would rate US engineering expertise in that area as among the best in the world, with, perhaps Germany, being the only equal. I know this because I've been involved with projects all over the world and have seen the efforts of my competitors, and I work for a multi-national engineering firm headquartered in the UK. In that organization of 9000 people worldwide, I would rate my US colleagues as the leaders of the pack.

If the US were more engaged in actually making stuff, rather than wallowing in "Financial engineering," we could be the world leader in improving the world.

When my alma mater, Princeton, announced that they had developed a new major "financial engineering", I asked one of my engineering professor friends if that involved designing new types of slot machines.

[SEGsby]

Ah ha. The fallacy of blaming job creation failure on the "guvment." If the US doesn't have the manufacturing cojones to manufacture this car, I have no problem with buying it from China.
...

Not sure where you get your information, but here's the truth about producing anything in the US:

The US does not make anything anymore, simply because businesses don't care about the ethics of making more money by paying far less in labor costs (up to 30 times less, in China), they get direct tax benefits on profits generated overseas (Foreign Tax Credit), and obtain cash kickbacks from foreign governments (Generally up to 40% of a company's operating costs) trying to attract said work to their economies.

And here's what the US Tax Code says they can legally do with those profits: US companies that make money in overseas countries have the option of reinvesting that cash back into the same foreign country. If that money is never transferred back to the United States, then that company will NEVER pay taxes on those profits. Never.

This is why there is now, no longer any financial incentive to build anything in the United States of America.

And the reason these unsustainable things are allowed to occur, is because the folks who helped re-write the trade & tax laws since the 1970's, were heavily influenced by Corporate Lobbyists & greed-driven "Deregulators" who were seeking to disconnect a corporate entities ethical & financial obligations from their hard working employees, and even their own country. The country that helped birth their initial success. And new legislation designed to reverse this destructive trend (Tax Overseas Profits, Financially Incentivise Returning Production Onshore, etc.), has been blocked by the GOP.

So your 'Cajones' and "guvment' comments comes off as rather naive & insulting...

[AlfredWAB]

Yes, I did some consulting with computer stuff 10 yrs ago or so. (Been at a regular job for about 6 yrs now) But saw a lot of the corporate restructuring to move profits off-shore. Build in China, etc. and only have a Marketing Company in the US that gets paid a commission that is a fraction of the real profit.

I've concluded that the only solution in this "free" global trade environment is to go 100% to a Consumption based tax system. This would tax all imports equally to domestic products and our exports would pay no tax at all. The only program I've found like that is the "Fair Tax" proposal. I don't like the word "Fair" as I don't believe taxes are ever fair. But the current tax structure and policies are an utter failure and too easy for the politicians to mess with.

[byplug]

Not sure where you get your information, but here's the truth about producing anything in the US:

The US does not make anything anymore, simply because businesses don't care about the ethics of making more money by paying far less in labor costs (up to 30 times less, in China), they get direct tax benefits on profits generated overseas (Foreign Tax Credit), and obtain cash kickbacks from foreign governments (Generally up to 40% of a company's operating costs) trying to attract said work to their economies.

And here's what the US Tax Code says they can legally do with those profits: US companies that make money in overseas countries have the option of reinvesting that cash back into the same foreign country. If that money is never transferred back to the United States, then that company will NEVER pay taxes on those profits. Never.

This is why there is now, no longer any financial incentive to build anything in the United States of America.

And the reason these unsustainable things are allowed to occur, is because the folks who helped re-write the trade & tax laws since the 1970's, were heavily influenced by Corporate Lobbyists & greed-driven "Deregulators" who were seeking to disconnect a corporate entities ethical & financial obligations from their hard working employees, and even their own country. The country that helped birth their initial success. And new legislation designed to reverse this destructive trend (Tax Overseas Profits, Financially Incentivise Returning Production Onshore, etc.), has been blocked by the GOP.

So your 'Cajones' and "guvment' comments comes off as rather naive & insulting...




http://byplug.com/the_vote2.jpg


.... controlled markets and forced POOR choices here in the U.S........The real world .......short run profits over country, over people, over ideas, over votes. Money. Period.

...example and a quote...

keyword Finland: "Fisker has said it expects to build up to 15,000 Karma sedans a year once the line at assembly contractor Valmet in Finland is operating at full speed."

"If we do not change our direction, we are likely to end up where we are headed."
–Chinese Proverb

So........

Here we are in the U.S. and spending ourselves into a crisis with DEBT OIL.
Let's take the 2011 Ford Fiesta as an example.... The 2011 Fiesta is the same body style as built in Europe and selling in Europe back in 2008. The European version is diesel so lower emission than the new 2012 Prius and better mileage... ..... and the European Fiesta..... wait for it........76.3 MPG highway and that is back in 2008...

Now...current day...break out the cheerleaders and the fancy FORD marketing here in 2011. "Ford Motor Company".. This time, I am going to buy American... ....American right?... must be built in USA...(insert buzzer noise here)

So Ford builds the U.S. Fiesta in Mexico to import to the U.S and releases it 3 years later (same body style as Europe) and....
28 city, 40 MPG highway... WTF? THAT IS 34.3 LESS MPG and more emissions....PER GALLON..... OF FUEL!!!! BUILT OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
Ford has the 76.3 MPG technology and is already producing and selling it..... deficit, DEBT OIL, remember???

The real world ....
Profits over country, over people, over votes. Money. Period.

I get it. Making money. The REAL real world... The other day I was behind a car at the ATM drive through in Escondido, CA ...the driver of the car with multiple babies just kept putting card after card into an ATM machine and taking out money....WTF? ... why are you taking so long? ...what are you doing? ...get going!!! She, had about 5 ECB cards (food Stamps) and was taking money from multiple cards.....I know this because when I pulled up.. she had left one of the cards sticking out of the machine... wow..

What happens when she is cut off? What happens to her standard of surviving?

15% of Americans on Food Stamps, forclosures, highest national debt, mortgage rates that did not follow the Federal Funds rate back in 2008 so richer banking execs..investors buying in bulk - foreclosed homes and renting back to previous home owners (the ones with a job for now)......people living at more and more of the expense of others...... and too many people.

So, time for some new U.S. incentives to build factories and products here to create jobs before the U.S. poor get sick of it and just start taking stuff and some of them already are in programs.

Face it. This is what I call the "averaging of the world wage". As our U.S. standard of living decreases for most of the population, the richest global percentage will live larger and the poorest populations with slave or cheap labor potential will see a rise in their standards of living.

Bottom line:

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
–Albert Einstein (original Aptera 3 wheel not four)

You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
–R. Buckminster Fuller (original Aptera 3 wheel not four)


This is the reason that I was exicited about Aptera initially. It was a solution to a host of problems. It is Fantastic. Simple in design. Something I could work on or repair myself. 25K. Electric car made in U.S. Not hydrogen. Not oil. Electricity, hard to export and can be purchased or produced here in SoCal without ..for lack of a better
description ...."the man".

Vote with your wallet while you have a job.

[PatQ562]

This is why there is now, no longer any financial incentive to build anything in the United States of America.
This is a naive and simplistic evaluation. As one who is winding up a 43 year career, having started a company that actually DOES make things, here is the situation from our viewpoint:
--Offshore manufacturing is a realistic necessity for certain products of a more generic type that compete largely on price, but the NET savings for decent quality levels are more like 15-30%. Significant, but not a game changer; inventory holding costs and shipping delays are a factor, and offshore labor costs are rapidly rising. From an ethical standpoint, 3rd world workers don't want to starve, sending them some of our work is not inherently evil, and Americans benefit from lower prices.
--We see plenty of straightforward business reasons for manufacturing in the US: rapid prototyping and production startup, short delivery pipelines, short build-to-order response times, ability to service and support the product, etc. These factors matter greatly to certain customers, mostly in the installation or construction business, where time is money, the show must go on, and their customers demand after-sales support. Meeting these needs requires good teamwork, clear thinking, and knowledge of the technology.
--My company sells partly to retail dealers, who are more price oriented, and partly to installers who are more delivery and support oriented. Consequently we use both types of manufacturing. We would not be able to develop advanced new products and manufacturing systems if we offshored everything. We have watched some competitors founder trying to do this.
--We make specialty professional audio equipment. The ability to conceive and build "mid volume" products (thousands, not millions) seems to benefit from the American mind set - independent thinking and common sense problem solving combined with teamwork.
--As long as we are confident that taxes and regulations are fairly applied to all our competitors, we are OK paying for our share of government. The main problems with taxes and regulations is ambiguity and complexity. If the requirement or tax bill is clear and simple we can comply, move on, and focus on our core business. We live here too and want a decent society.
--In many ways, "starving the government" has made it harder to grow our business. We have a very hard time finding people with basic educations, who can spell, construct a logical argument, check a long list, or develop a systematic skill. The failure to raise gasoline taxes to keep up with inflation results in congested, broken-down roads than hinder quick deliveries and site visits. Air travel has become an insulting nightmare. Health care insurance is a chronic and ever-increasing burden. I could go on and on.
--On the plus side, the growth of the internet has radically improved access to information, specs, and technical knowledge, and therefore stands as a good example of public-private sector co-development, but the US is far from the leader in this.
--I can't deny that something seems very rotten in Washington and Wall Street. The lack of simple, sensible financial-sector regulations has allowed short-sighted fools to sell financial "products" they don't understand to fund managers who don't understand them, and the house of cards started falling apart in 2008. As an engineer, I am all-too-aware that increasing the power and speed of a complex system, without corresponding brakes and governors, inevitably leads to a crash. This is pretty much a law of nature.
--We live on a crowded planet. Population has almost tripled in my lifetime. The opportunities and dangers have both increased, and people need to play well together. We need to agree on what we expect from a government "of the people, for the people" and a realistic level of funding to secure these benefits.
--Personally, I recommend a policy of "fertilization" (education, infrastructure, basic science research), "guardrails" (regulations to make people think about what they're doing and prevent witting or unwitting disasters) and "externality capturing" (taxes designed to pay for the external costs imposed on the rest of us by various activities). In the unlikely event we could agree on fair policies for the above, especially the latter, it would become quite obvious and profitable to innovate, "do the right thing", and make the world a better and easier place, without a lot of intrusive meddling in the day-to-day lives and activities of the people.

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

A new promo video with a slightly different version of the VLC included, along with the VLCe and the X-Prize cars.

http://vimeo.com/30875917

[palmer_md]

I can't wait to get my hands on one.

[Grendal]

A new promo video with a slightly different version of the VLC included, along with the VLCe and the X-Prize cars.

http://vimeo.com/30875917

Was the blue one an ICE version? It had a wider body and curvier design. Very interesting. Go Edison2!

[NeilBlanchard]

I don't know what the drivetrain is in the blue one, with the hood scoop. The electric one is the one with the windshield canopy, seen at 1:23 and again at 2:21, and at the very end.

[palmer_md]

The blue car looks like a variation of the xprize car and not one of the newest versions (vlc 4.0) that they recently took to the wind tunnel. I'd guess it is a technology test bed car. Looks like they modified the a-pilar and now have new door openings (I like it better than the way the eVLC opens the entire canopy). They changed the way the windows are installed, and it seems to give far more glazing which should translate into better field of view. I have no idea what the scoop is on the front, but perhaps air for the condenser on an A/C system. There are probably hundreds of other changes that we cant see from the outside. I'm looking forward to the reveal of the vlc 4.0.

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/383330_10150464568251133_255167146132_11013296_196 5666009_n.jpg

[Jas11]

From 11 and with Oliver' blessing...

http://designby11.blogspot.com/

Jason

[palmer_md]

From 11 and with Oliver' blessing...

http://designby11.blogspot.com/

Jason

You tease. I want to see more! Thanks for sharing. Your work is awesome. Can't wait to see it come to life.

[NeilBlanchard]

Thanks Jason!

Oliver mentioned that the blue car is the one they put a stock Smart Car engine and auto transmission in -- and it is more powerful than the VLC needs. It goes *very* fast and gets about 89MPG on regular gas.

They are working on improving the electric drivetrain, and as the image Jason posted shows, they are working on VLC 4.0 -- looks great!

[SEGsby]

Wow, the transformation is incredible. Can't wait to see more!!! Thanks for sharing / teasing Jason. :)

[Sheepdog 44]

Look what i found at the sweet briar college youtube. This is probably the most refined 4th gen iteration of the design. If you watch the video for the survey at youtube you can also see a 1/4 scale model and a much larger one as well. Its really nice, although I miss the much sharper nose. You can really see the convergence of the VLC and Aptera 4 wheel concept art.

Link Edited by Segsby:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NQ76L58

I guess thats a full scale model you in one of the frames.
24TOHA8Uzow

I couldnt manage to pull out a link for the actual image.

[NeilBlanchard]

Thanks for finding this! I think the larger one is a full size foam buck.

Take the survey for additional images. I think the sharp nose is still there, but it is flush with the leading edge of the horizontal plane for the wheel support / front bumper.

[Ken Fry]

From 11 and with Oliver' blessing...

http://designby11.blogspot.com/

Jason

Very nicely done Jason.

You have probably seen the Milner Motors Electricar, which shares some features of the (pre-Jason) Edison design (but predates the VLC). Some of your aesthetic tweaking could help the Milner, too... particularly the wheel fairings.

http://www.milnermotors.com/images/101018%20036a.JPG

(I say, as if I can judge... The Zing! is not styled at all in any meaningful sense.)

[Sheepdog 44]

The design of the VLC 4.0 has grown on me, though i still like the current race car looking model better. Maybe if they changed the paint so it looks less like a minivan. But that is also a good thing too. This car is hyper efficient and yet the design in the survey looks like a very mainstream production model. You can have a super efficient car that looks normal enough (hence familiarly safe) for house moms to drive there kids to school in. This broadens the market acceptability of it to cost conscious middle class people while still being a hypermilers dream and technologically advanced for the electric version.

They are making real progress with credible numbers. This is what ive wanted to happen at an automotive company for a long time.

Maybe the next step for the VLC is to make it a flying car! Imagine, very light car, supreme aerodynamics, retractable wings, turbo prop rear propellor. Everything theyve done to the VLC also solves the issues of making a flying car, which is weight and unaero car design.

[palmer_md]

The design of the VLC 4.0 has grown on me, though i still like the current race car looking model better. Maybe if they changed the paint so it looks less like a minivan.

Where are you seeing this "minivan". I've never seen anything but a model of the 4.0. I'm sure one exists by now, but I've not seen any photos.

http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=60434&postcount=250

[SEGsby]

The pinched off tails on these type of vehicles, aren't exactly cargo capacity friendly (unlike the Aptera), but I understand why people keep repeating these designs.

The Milner's needs some wheel pants tailoring, Jason 11 Style. ;) The vehicle looks like it's incomplete. The wheels are uncomfortable to look at.

The VLC preview on Jason's site is pretty slick. It's got that thrust-forward starship feel, like it's moving just sitting there, that I absolutely love. Deformable bumper / wheel skirts for the win!

[Jas11]

@Ken,
Thanks for the kind words. I am aware of the Milner, and in fact a former Aptera employee had worked on some of the styling aspects of it prior to joining aptera. (he also designed the aptera logo and corporate identity).

The design on the VLC is following the same path as the original Typ1 (both versions), whereby design and engineering is working extremely closely to achieve the overall goal. Otherwise you end up with styled elements that don't fit overall.

Think of the purity in design and engineering at say, Ducati. The raw, uncovered, exposed, and pure beauty of the engineering creates its own aesthetic "style". This is the same result you see in first Aptera vehicle(s) (still not a car!). One must manage all the aesthetic choices and tailor the lines and form to fit, but also meet all engineering hardpoints and material processes (etc. etc.). Only then do you get a design language and overall pure result, instead of a collection of things, or some add on parts, or just goofy styling. (See: Detroit, with some notable and wonderful exceptions) It truly is function and form built around the user and the manufacturer.

I could go on and on about Apple and their design and engineering achieving a pure result, devoid of "styling" yet creating a style all its own.

The Milner is curious to me in its aero approach on the airfoils (front and rear)....I wonder how much CFD or Tunnel time was spent vs. aero intuition (everybody is an expert!;)).

By the way the Zing! (I would watch the exclamation point. See: Zap!;)), is very cool and is also not a car. Aptera made that mistake and also let themselves be portrayed as a EV company instead of an efficiency vehicle company. (IMHO only).

Just my 11 cents...

Respectfully,

Jason

[PatQ562]

A "car" is generally defined as an enclosed space that carries passengers, such as an elevator car, the car under a dirigible, a side car for a motorcycle, a railroad car, or an automotive car. The latter most commonly has four wheels, but I submit it's the enclosed cab that makes it a "car" and on that basis, Aptera clearly qualifies to be called a car.

Just Sayin....

Pat Q

[Jas11]

Vehicle. You say car and people have pre-conceived notions. But you are correct in your assessment of the true meaning of "car".

Just sayin...2

Jason

[SEGsby]

The meaning of "car" will evolve, just as the underlying technologies, engineering and design take that notion into unexplored areas.

The GM EN-V prototypes, for example, demonstrate how using clever application of forces, can reduce the structural need & overhead for what once physically required 3 or 4 wheels to do. Driving by wire, also allows computers to pilot these, instead of depending on humans. Devices such as these, are clearly not "cars" in any traditional sense.

But the term "Vehicle" seems the safest, least concept-biased term that implies conveying more than one person at a time. And "Mobility" seems more often used to describe transportation tools that are designed to accommodate the individual.

Looking forward to seeing more road-spacecraft awesomeness for the VCL, Jason. :)

[steve]

@Jas11

" (See: Detroit, with some notable and wonderful exceptions)"

Indeed, I can think of a few...

http://www.plan59.com/images/JPGs/cadillac_1958_eldorado_biarritz_01.jpg

[Ken Fry]

@ steve:
Now you've done it!!!

http://64.19.142.12/www.chooseyouritem.com/classics/photos/1053000/1053314.1962.Lincoln.Continental.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_VnpZkc3GzxI/SYb_rnM_54I/AAAAAAAAC0o/MHcHQpVFxn4/s400/1963+Buick+Riviera.JPG

http://64.19.142.11/www.amosminter.com/130/img001.jpg

http://image.streetrodderweb.com/f/features/1004sr_1956_lincoln_continental_mark_ii/32447178+pheader_460x1000/srop_1004_01_o+1956_lincoln_continental_mark_ii+le ft_side.jpg

http://www.chooseyouritem.com/classics/photos/5753000/5753109.1965.Chevrolet.Corvair.Monza.2-Door.Convertible.jpg

[Ken Fry]

Not from Detroit (few of my faves are) but this one is high on my list of car designs I like:

http://64.19.142.12/www.shorey.net/Auto/British/Talbot/1937%20Talbot%20T150%20SS%20by%20Figoni%20et%20Fal aschi.jpg

1937 Talbot Lago, Figoni and Falaschi

[Ken Fry]

Maybe the next step for the VLC is to make it a flying car! Imagine, very light car, supreme aerodynamics, retractable wings, turbo prop rear propellor. Everything theyve done to the VLC also solves the issues of making a flying car, which is weight and unaero car design.

Some of the unusual details of the Milner have to do with it first being designed as a flying car: canard in front, main wings (folding) in back.

http://64.19.142.13/www.milnermotors.com/images/080124%20allthreew.JPG

[Ken Fry]

The meaning of "car" will evolve, just as the underlying technologies, engineering and design take that notion into unexplored areas.



True. Little I do in terms of naming the Zing! will change the fact that everyone who sees it says "Cool lookin car". Essentially none of my buyers will think of it as serving the same function as motorcycle, a Segway, or a bicycle.

The legal aspects become clear to anyone who is interested in buying one.

[Ken Fry]

Vehicle. You say car and people have pre-conceived notions. But you are correct in your assessment of the true meaning of "car".

Just sayin...2

Jason

My brother used to rail against things like (Pontiac) Grand Prix (pronounced with English "grand" and French "prix") and chaise lounge (a bastardization of chaise longue). Try though (tho) he did, people did not change.

Dictionaries and grammar are both descriptive, not prescriptive. The Rolling Stones tune "I can't get no satisfaction" sold just fine.

[Ken Fry]

The Milner's needs some wheel pants tailoring, Jason 11 Style. ;) The vehicle looks like it's incomplete. The wheels are uncomfortable to look at.

I agree, but offer in its defense that it is an air car first, electric car second. The intention is to use sales of the electric car to fund further development of the air car -- a longtime dream of the older Milner, especially. An incredibly ambitious project.

[Ken Fry]

@Ken,

Think of the purity in design and engineering at say, Ducati. The raw, uncovered, exposed, and pure beauty of the engineering creates its own aesthetic "style".

The Milner is curious to me in its aero approach on the airfoils (front and rear)....I wonder how much CFD or Tunnel time was spent vs. aero intuition (everybody is an expert!;)).

Just my 11 cents...

Respectfully,

Jason

I love Ducatis, and have lusted for many of them from the mid 60's on. Never owned one... but never lost a race to one, either. (In one endurance race, our little 350 Honda beat every bike in the field: Ducatis with more than twice the displacement, Kawasaki's with almost three times the displacement, etc.)

But I still love Ducatis and Bimotos. The last time I was at the Bimoto dealer, I remarked on the artistic, sculptural quality of the bike being so well-integrated with its engineering... and the shop owner knew just what I meant.

Your designs capture a similar feeling, in what might be an intuitively non-obvious way. On the surface, your designs hide what's underneath, unlike the Ducati design, which bares all. But they suggest that what lies within works well. (I suppose it is not unlike a really nice dress.) And then again, the shape of the surface is the function, it doesn't merely reflect the function. (Psychologists would say that the dress analogy holds in this sense too.)

Re the Milner:
They did a fair amount of CFD early on, and again upon redesign of the basic shape. I suspect (but do not know) that the the wheel pants have escaped analysis.

I did not groan too loudly at "just my 11 cents".

Regards,
Ken

[c0mp13x]

Back in December, Sheepdog44 posted a link to the survey below. I don't remember seeing these Design by 11 preview pics of Jason Hill's VLC design in the survey, so I thought I would post them here for those that might have missed it:

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/20476527/cc54e61f-c9a0-4418-bb4b-45b2a27f92a6.jpg

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/20476527/6f1aa51d-14c2-48e0-a915-d9253d3844a7.jpg

These images are from the Sweet Briar College survey about the VLC here:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NQ76L58

Here is the previously released sneak preview image from Jason's blog:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WANUGa9aCAM/Ttp4TjUmTSI/AAAAAAAAARI/_TeTUkrfr1M/s320/VLC+4.0.jpg

:thumbsup:

[SEGsby]

Wooo, nice find! :)

Just wish there was a VLC that had a wide hatchback cargo-friendly option...

Greeaaat work, Jason!!!

[dfbvt]

Once again Jason, nice work.

It always amazes me how a little extra angle there, a bit more curve here, a touch more flair on over on that part and a item that looked rather plain before now looks awesome. And its VERY important that products look nice. I believe that a major part of a sale is decided in the first few seconds that a potential buyer looks at the product. After all, the majority of the human information input is the through to eye.

Dave Bowles :thumbsup:

[PatQ562]

The B/W images show a real pro's touches. The planes replacing the spindly axle fairings convey more visual strength (and hopefully less drag), and now we can see how the front wheels work (sort of) - the pods don't turn, just the wheel covers (although still unclear on where the inside faces of the wheels go in sharp turns).
I do agree with SEGsby that using a flat tail like the Aptera rather than the vertical tail would be more functional on several levels.

Pat Q

[Sheepdog 44]

Back in December, Sheepdog44 posted a link to the survey below. I don't remember seeing these Design by 11 preview pics of Jason Hill's VLC design in the survey, so I thought I would post them here for those that might have missed it:

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/20476527/cc54e61f-c9a0-4418-bb4b-45b2a27f92a6.jpg

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/20476527/6f1aa51d-14c2-48e0-a915-d9253d3844a7.jpg

These images are from the Sweet Briar College survey about the VLC here:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NQ76L58

Here is the previously released sneak preview image from Jason's blog:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WANUGa9aCAM/Ttp4TjUmTSI/AAAAAAAAARI/_TeTUkrfr1M/s320/VLC+4.0.jpg

:thumbsup:


Here's one i missed dated from last summer. It's one of the several quarter scale models of the potential 4.0. It apears to be very similar to the other pictures, except the side mirrors and headlights are mounted on the wheel fairings (instead of body and nose) which looks very sports-car like, and also some lines for the doors. Still say i like the way the 3.0 looks in a stripped down sportscar way.

I can't say i like the pillar seperating the front windscreen. Looks like this one is a composite of the VLCE in that the door hinges from the front like gull wings.
http://www.readthehook.com/files/imagecache/300px_wide/images/field_images/cover-whateverhappened-edis.jpg

[SEGsby]

I don't mind the center split. The window is so pinched there, that splitting it removes distortion from refractive glass bent at extreme angles.

This design still works fine for aircraft. I'm fine with it.

[Sheepdog 44]

Maybe its also part of a "central structural beam" That is Oliver Kutner is fond of in small cars. I'd like to see how they mount windshield wipers to it. I can see now how it would be necessary for aerodynamics and cost, where normal cars like a Prius can get away with smaller glass because it's aligned more vertical into the wind. I imagine you can fit alot of trinkets above the dash of that thing!

Also, what ever happened to the cool triangular ducts on the side?

From what i hear, this year is gonna be big for the 4.0.

Some more old ones that are new to me. they apear to be date jan-march 2010: Ever wonder what those pictures on the wall of their youtube videos are? Couldn't pull this img link, it shows molded seats.
http://www.coroflot.com/martingdesign/Edison2/2#scroll
Look at the third image second from the top left drawing. Maybe the first VLC before they decided what it would look like?
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/original_440681_5YH4Uo0g38XnDK_TJqK5tHjvT.jpg
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/original_440681_ZfGnMakkazij0pfai7IWcSD5N.jpg
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/original_440681_wj_UZJ5uW6zjdDXZx14S8Bmoo.jpg
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/original_440681_FyQfk2mEXV0xzWBrdreJpju0i.jpg

[PatQ562]

Many a vintage car of the streamlined 30's and 40's had split windshields. I think my 49 Caddy did. No problem at all as long as the divider is much smaller than the distance between the driver's eyes (so at least one eye can see past). Modern side pillars have gotten fatter than this rule, to the detriment of visibility.
Pat Q

[Sheepdog 44]

Check this video from Feb 24:
http://ideastations.org/video/charlottesville-inside-out-look3-festival-of-photograph-edison2-2012-02-24

Skip to 13:20. That's where the VLC comes in.

Holy cow is the 4.0 quarter scale model beautiful! And appears to be modeled for suicide doors. Can someone screen cap it for the rest of us? The 2.0 they drive in looks spacious except how close the seats are width wise, but i think it's nice and just not what we Americans are accustomed too. I'd really like to own one someday!

Maybe two, one 4.0, one 4.0 sport like the black scale model looks like that you get a peek at which i think is the current version. More pointy and slek, 80 mpg bat out of hell and great handling.

[dfbvt]

Sheepdog

Can someone screen cap it for the rest of us?

Is this the kind of photos you are looking for? If so, I can get some more screen caps at different angles and pretty them up. It may take me a few days though. Busy as always.....

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/dfbowlesvt/Edison2FrontViewOfNewVehical.jpg


Dave Bowles :thumbsup:

[Sheepdog 44]

Yeah, can you get a side view?

[NeilBlanchard]

Thanks for posting the video. There is a lot of new info to chew on. I'm wondering if the front wheel fairings are now fixed; since the headlights are on them, and hinging them would either open up large gaps or there would have to have telescoping panels or flexible material to allow for the pivot? They could have hinged panels on the outside?

My attempts to do a screen capture has the Play button in the middle of the image...

By the way, I'm in the still image from the X-Prize of the whole team -- I'm on the left third in on the back row; but naturally you can't see my face... :-( Only my hair... Here's one with my face:
http://www.sdcleanfuels.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Edison2-Team2.jpg

[Grendal]

The Volkswagen Bug of the 21st century priced at around $20K. That's an ICE version from what they said. The E version would probably cost a bit more. In a couple more years the E version should be comparable to the ICE in price. I'd say when batteries are $200 per kWh since the VLCe only needs a 10kWh pack. Since they've run the numbers, I wonder how much the weight of the batteries hurts their overall efficiency?

[Sheepdog 44]

I have a feeling that it may be priced between $15,000-$10,000. You can get really heavy cars full of metal with giant engines for $20k. Heck you can get a brand new Prius C with a Hybrid powertrain.

The VLC is made of a lot less materials and is much simpler. Granted they would have to make a completely brand new car with 100% of the parts never manufactured before. But even at $10,000 wouldnt they still make a good profit? I don't think emerging countries would be so interested if it couldnt be made to sell for less than $20k.

Everyone would be prepared to pay $20k but we might be pleasantly surprised for what it goes for.

[SEGsby]

Batteries of any significant capacity and quality are still expensive, so I can see the EV version costing about twice as much as the gasoline version.

And the unusually low prices you cite, would only be after economies of scale kick in... *shrugs*

[dfbvt]

Sheepdog

Yeah, can you get a side view?

Yep! Can do!

However it won't be tonight because I got to go play Hockey and it might not be tomorrow night because amazingly enough, little ole Burlington VT is hosting the Women's International World Hockey Championships at UVM and I've never been to a game at that high a level for real. And it’s happening 20 miles from me…. Wow! Oh. And the USA Women's team is the lead seed for the semi finals!

But I'll get to the picture(s) by this weekend.

Dave Bowles :thumbsup:

[AndyH]

IT support on the hoof! :)

http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/LEAF/edison_side.jpg

Thanks for the video!

[NeilBlanchard]

Yep, with both the mirrors and the headlights on the front wheel fairings means that they are fixed. The circular panel over the front wheel must then be pivoting. (Not unlike CarBEN...)

I also wonder about the front suspension -- the unique need to reinvent it may no longer be needed. At the very least, the front structure can now be much simpler -- it was a large diameter, long aluminum tube. But now that the front fenders are joined to the main chassis with a much broader shell, it could easily become small diameter steel tube frame. Which will be much lower cost and stronger.

If a more conventional front suspension could be used, then the VLC *could* have front wheel drive, which would be much better for an electric drivetrain, since you can then get much better regenerative braking.

[smilingcat]

Check this video from Feb 24:
http://ideastations.org/video/charlottesville-inside-out-look3-festival-of-photograph-edison2-2012-02-24



Soo I've been looking at this video literally frame by frame to see the setup of the suspension system.

I became very curious when I saw the large diameter metal tube connecting from the body to the wheel assembly.

I wish there were better images of the area both front and rear. How much travel? what is the compliance? bushings to deal with the noise and vibration?
What about camber? not obvious from the images,
and toe adjustment for the front wheel? It's relatively easy to do so I would imagine they can adjust it.
Caster is probably fixed.

[Sheepdog 44]

This is the front suspension. Entirely in wheel
http://dayerses.com/data_images/posts/edison2-very-light-car/edison2-very-light-car-04.jpg
The rear suspension on the first xprize models is different and im not sure if its changed. I can only provide a link to it. What you don't see are the wheels which would be placed behind the axel. The spring suspension provides torque to the bar twisting it, the wheel being behind the bar then can move the wheel up and down. Maybe im explaining it backwards.
http://www.edison2.com/photos/early-ideas-and-creation-of-the-very-light-car/4066690?originalSize=true
You can see how it works in the early videos without the shell on. Around 1:30 they wheel it backwards and you can see how it's all in wheel.
http://vimeo.com/6887214

[NeilBlanchard]

Right, and the rear suspension works differently -- the wheels are on trailing arm casing that has a chain reduction in it, and the whole tube pivots with it. There are two large bearings supporting the tubes on each side. The drive shafts are inside the tubes.

http://www.edison2.com/picture/rear%20axle%20suspension%20edited.jpg?pictureId=40 66690

Another thing that is very different on the new quarter scale model is that the rear wheel struts seem to be much higher up, above the centerline of the wheel? Compare the X-Prize picture with the model.

[palmer_md]

Design by 11's latest showing for the VLC 4.0

http://designby11.blogspot.com/2012/04/vlc-40.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MDPua3NB-zw/T44X69VokHI/AAAAAAAAARw/mQvBhx0N804/s1600/VLC+4.0+B.jpg

[Sheepdog 44]

WOW, thank you thats amazing! I love how the back looks. Better conventional doors, lowered rear window for better viewing. I just hope they don't go an inch conventional and sacrifice an iota to aerodynamic drag. What worries me is A, not seeing concrete evidence of completely faired in front wheels, B, The engine inlets (can't remember their proper names) are they the ideal form? and C, could the rear be lower than is exactly optimal?

I know though that these are just versions of the upcoming 4.0, and Oliver has stated that it will have a lower CD even with bumpers etc.

I see they are up in the air on how to get the best placement on the windows.

[smilingcat]

air inlet looks like its taking some idea from NACA inlet/duct. The sharp side edge helps with the boundary layer on the "bottom" of the inlet and allow for higher inlet pressure if I remember right. The outer edges of the inlet is far from NACA but I think they are trying for the same aerodynamic effect.

NACA inlet is far better than a scoop which juts out from the body and upsetting the laminar flow behind it. Scoop generates far more drag.

The designed inlet meshes far better with the overall design than a "standard" NACA inlet. just my 2 cents.

[SEGsby]

Awww, what a tease! Wanna see the front headlights in a 3/4 view. :(

Is that wheel cover a spinner style cover that stays relatively fixed by weighting? Or will this weird graphic rotate and strobe, hypnotizing everyone who looks at it? ;)

Weird graphic is also on the roof...

[c0mp13x]

Hmmm... this version of the VLC is certainly more developed, but I don't find some of the shapes as pleasing as these earlier versions:

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/20476527/cc54e61f-c9a0-4418-bb4b-45b2a27f92a6.jpg

http://secure.surveymonkey.com/_resources/20476527/6f1aa51d-14c2-48e0-a915-d9253d3844a7.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WANUGa9aCAM/Ttp4TjUmTSI/AAAAAAAAARI/_TeTUkrfr1M/s320/VLC+4.0.jpg
I understand that the design is more refined for actual production, and it's really not fair to assess the entire design without a good shot of the front end.

As for the scoop, I think it's a great design. It provides function with the least amount laminar air flow interruption. Because it is formed by the rear door panel; it is easy to delete and smooth over for a drivetrain (electric, etc.) that may not need rear air intake.

While I don't mind the rear window line dipping down below the side window line to provide better rear visibility, I don't care for the high top arch of the front window. I guess it bring more light into the cabin... I just don't like how it forms points at the top of the 'A' pillars. I think the shape the front roof line conflicts with the 'forward thrust" of aerodynamic design of this vehicle.

The exposed front wheels are fine with me, even with the aerodynamic compromise. It simplifies the front end, saves weight and cost by not having the wheel faring turn with the wheel.

Ohhh... and I REALLY don't mind the split side windows for tolls and burgers. Saves weight, complexity and cost. We've all seen how a full, roll down window can drag a whole project down... ohhhh boy :rolleyes:

Did you guys notice the new wiper cavity between the hood and the windshield? It looks like the hood line has risen quite a bit and I wonder how the low sight lines will be for shorter drivers...

Hey Edison2 & Jason - great job, keep up the good work!

:thumbsup:

[c0mp13x]

Congrats E2... United States Patent 8152184 - Vehicle Suspension System

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/523758_10150816267826133_255167146132_12259361_104 4781740_n.jpg

[Sheepdog 44]

Hmmm... this version of the VLC is certainly more developed, but I don't find some of the shapes as pleasing as these earlier versions:

As for the scoop, I think it's a great design. It provides function with the least amount laminar air flow interruption. Because it is formed by the rear door panel; it is easy to delete and smooth over for a drivetrain (electric, etc.) that may not need rear air intake.

While I don't mind the rear window line dipping down below the side window line to provide better rear visibility, I don't care for the high top arch of the front window. I guess it bring more light into the cabin... I just don't like how it forms points at the top of the 'A' pillars. I think the shape the front roof line conflicts with the 'forward thrust" of aerodynamic design of this vehicle.

Ohhh... and I REALLY don't mind the split side windows for tolls and burgers. Saves weight, complexity and cost. We've all seen how a full, roll down window can drag a whole project down... ohhhh boy :rolleyes:

Did you guys notice the new wiper cavity between the hood and the windshield? It looks like the hood line has risen quite a bit and I wonder how the low sight lines will be for shorter drivers...

Hey Edison2 & Jason - great job, keep up the good work!

:thumbsup:

I like the Naca ducts and split roll down windows. I didn't catch those until you mentioned it, those are nifty. I hope they do suicide rear doors for clearance with the rear wheel fairing but if not fine, just icing on the cake!

[c0mp13x]

Turned the lights on for you guys...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7183/6945691986_66a2230237_b.jpg

:doublethumbs:

[palmer_md]

Turned the lights on for you guys...

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7183/6945691986_66a2230237_b.jpg

:doublethumbs:


where do I sign?

[Jas11]

"Turned the lights on for you guys..." Hey! no fair! just joking.

Jason

[NeilBlanchard]

Okay, the two things that jump out at me: the front wheel openings means the front fairings do not pivot; and the rear doors! And the side view mirrors look soooo 20th century!

Shared!

[Schrodinger]

Ohhh... and I REALLY don't mind the split side windows for tolls and burgers. Saves weight, complexity and cost. We've all seen how a full, roll down window can drag a whole project down... ohhhh boy :rolleyes:


Seconded


Did you guys notice the new wiper cavity between the hood and the windshield?

I saw that too. Kinda like the car has a Bond Villain reinforced under-bite. Looks somewhat aggressive.

And the side view mirrors look soooo 20th century!

Hey, didn't the recent video detail the side mirrors as being mounted on the front wheel fairings?

[Apt3448]

Go Jason!
I was never too excited about Edison 2 because of the odd looks, but now I'm listening!

[NeilBlanchard]

The mirrors on the back of the front wheel fairings would not be visible to the driver; or the passenger's side one anyway would be obstructed by the door.

[PatQ562]

As a recent owner of my first British car (62 Austin Mini), I can report that the stylish fender mirrors are practically useless for seeing your surroundings. And I think most vehicle codes still require mirrors (rather than cameras) although I'm not sure how many. At least the proposed mirror is streamlined.
Pat Q

[dfbvt]

Sheepdog

Yeah, can you get a side view?

Dave Bowles

Yep! Can do!

However it won't be tonight because I got to go play Hockey and...

Well, So it took a little longer than I intended but here is the side view you wanted.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/dfbowlesvt/Edision2SideViewFromVidio.jpg

Looks like lots of great stuff is happening @ Edison 2!!

Dave Bowles :thumbsup:

[shotgunslade]

I think that this is a worthy succesor to Aptera. Perhaps it will wind up a little heavier and not quite as aerodynamic as the earlier, better versions of Aptera. But, 4 seats and 4 doors (sort of) give it much broader appeal. The one thing that put me off with respect to the Aptera is that it had such a huge footprint (long and wide) for 2 seater car with not that much interior space.

[SEGsby]

Would like to see a version with a larger rear cargo area... But is is evolving really nicely. Great work Jason! :D

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's an image on Design by 11 blog:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TTuVlNLDAK0/T66RYlXJIbI/AAAAAAAAAR4/h1PiTHQcLV4/s1600/5-11VLC.jpg

http://designby11.blogspot.com/

[SEGsby]

Miss the rear tailights / reflectors on the back of the wheelpants...

The appearance of a small, singular brake / reverse light, concerns me.

[PatQ562]

There could be tail/turn/brake lights lower down on the rear fender, with the middle as the mandatory 3rd brake light. Otherwise, agreed.

This configuration obviously addresses a rear-engine with its cooling requirements etc, somewhat limiting the cargo space. There could be a front space...

Pat Q

[dfbvt]

SEGsby

The appearance of a small, singular brake / reverse light, concerns me.

I agree with Pat's coment. There could be tail/turn/brake lights lower down on the rear fender, with the middle as the mandatory 3rd brake light.


As you can see from the first two pictures below that Jason probably was just working out possible different wheel pant designs and had not gotten around to detailing the turn signals like he did in the last 2 pictures.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/dfbowlesvt/Edison%202%20VLC%20Concepts/TruningflashersonJasonsConceptOftheNewVLC40R1.jpg

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/dfbowlesvt/Edison%202%20VLC%20Concepts/TuningflashersonJasonsConceptOftheNewVLC40R4.jpg

In the above picture I colored the section of the wheel pant where I'm sure he will put some kind of turn signal such as shown in these next pictures.

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/dfbowlesvt/Edison%202%20VLC%20Concepts/TuningflashersonJasonsConceptOftheVLC40R3.jpg

http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/dfbowlesvt/Edison%202%20VLC%20Concepts/TruningflashersonJasonsConceptOftheNewVLC40R2.jpg

This last concept is by far my personal preference.

It does seem like Jason likes to play with us by give us tantalizing sneak peeks of his work which in turn keeps us active members going into a frenzy of speculating as to what he might be coming up with next. Thats OK with me Jason. It sure has given us Diehards some fun stuff to talk about which is a much needed change from the past year.

So go ahead Jason, keep tantalizing us with your ideas and keep up the great work!!

Dave Bowles:thumbsup:

[Jas11]

Rear lights: the VLC must have proper automotive lighting, which includes marker lights, signals, brake and CHMSL (third brake light, center high mount). With any design we undertake, all considerations such as these are taken into account. It is what I do. So, there will of course be rear lights located in the proper position with proper functions, as well as fully integrated front lighting including all marker and indicator lamps. This philosophy applies to all aspects of the VLC design development so areas such as handles, access points, storage, interior seating position and vision angles are paramount to the design process. The final result will answer any questions one may have as to the perceived lack of an item...right?;)

Will do my best to keep revealing a bit at a time.

Jason

[SEGsby]

Open speculation is the best part of looking at Works In Progress. ;)

[Jas11]

Agreed SEGs, I do enjoy it of course. Speculate away!

Jason

[SEGsby]

Give us more stuff to look at! :D

[Sheepdog 44]

I have a hard time pulling img links.
http://designby11.blogspot.com/2012/05/strip-tease.html#links

[dane bramage]

It looks to me like the vehicle centerline viewed from the top. Do I win the Kewpie Doll?:jumping0001:

[SEGsby]

The bold texture patten is weird... Not sure I'm a fan of it. Are they supposed to be paint, molded in, or decals applied to the surface?

Shouldn't the end be tail light red? The yellow confuses me... *pokes Jason for explanation*

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Rx8f9sGV4UI/T7BbvtuKDpI/AAAAAAAAASE/Hgb_giXiUgo/s1600/VLC+strip+tease.jpg

[Schrodinger]

Shouldn't the end be tail light red?

Actually I do see a flash of tail light red at the very tail end of the Very Light Car. It seems as if the taillight is recessed into the bumper, but is sufficiently convex to peak slightly proud of the bumper.

[Adreitz]

The front of the car is on the right. The rear is on the left.

Aaron

[SEGsby]

Ah, okay. The yellow band in front still confuses me...

[Schrodinger]

The yellow band in front still confuses me.

It looks like the yellow in front would match the yellow accent found on the wheel skirts and side mirrors in other renderings.