Arcimoto Pulse

[RainCaster]

Here is an interesting alternative to the Aptera-
Three wheels, hiway speeds, two seats. $20,000 price target
http://arcimoto.com/
http://blog.marketplace.nwsource.com/nwautos/2010/01/bold_moves_a_pacific_northwest_company_sees_an_ope ning_for_its_ev_startup.html

http://arcimoto.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gallerymain/images/vehicle_back_threequarters.jpg

[rayfellow]

Let's see:
Motor - Aptera: AC - ARC: DC
Battery - Aptera: Li Ion - ARC: lead Acid
Range - Aptera: 100 mi plus - ARC: 50 mi
Drive wheel - Aptera: FWD - ARC: Rear wheel (belt?)
Seating - Aptera: side by side ARC: Tandem
Storage cap. - Aptera: Lots in the rear ARC: Not too much
Price - Aptera $25/40K ARC: start at $20K

Hmmm. I think we have a winner.... Unless you get the ARC price down to say $14k or so.

[SlowSRT4]

Let's see:
Motor - Aptera: AC - ARC: DC
Battery - Aptera: Li Ion - ARC: lead Acid
Range - Aptera: 100 mi plus - ARC: 50 mi
Drive wheel - Aptera: FWD - ARC: Rear wheel (belt?)
Seating - Aptera: side by side ARC: Tandem
Storage cap. - Aptera: Lots in the rear ARC: Not too much
Price - Aptera $25/40K ARC: start at $20K

Hmmm. I think we have a winner.... Unless you get the ARC price down to say $14k or so.

Aptera beats everything, they just need to make it.

[PatQ562]

Given that the Arcimoto has manifestly higher drag and powertrain losses, I would expect there to be much more than a 2:1 difference in effective range using lead-acid in the Arcimoto. 50 miles may be possible at 50mph, whereas we're "supposed" to get an easy 100 mile range at freeway speeds with Aptera. Real-world range ratio under comparable conditions should be at least 3:1.

Another problem with short-range batteries - you use up your "500 cycles" a lot quicker. 500 cycles x 50 miles = 25,000 miles, if all goes well (the EV1 was going thru lead acid packs at about 15K miles at least initially, and my Karmann Ghia only went about 1500 miles). If the best lithium cells really will deiiver 1000 cycles or more, we are exceeding 100K miles of usable lifetime.

Like SlowSRT4 said - all Aptera needs to do is make it.

[Dolphyn]

The Arcimoto Pulse was previously announced (http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/28/arcimoto-pulse-the-latest-tiny-3-wheeled-electric-vehicle/) with a top speed of 55 mph. I wonder when they changed the spec to "65+ mph"?

Cup holders are standard. Woo-hoo!

[PatQ562]

Maybe when they daringly upped the power and hit 65 without actually losing control? :D

Actually wasn't there something about a lithium upgrade?

Pat Q

[PatQ562]

Tailgating protection provided by uncovered rear tire throwing rain and gravel in the face of anyone following too closely. Isn't lack of mudflaps or fenders illegal?

Pat Q

[IanO]

Yeah, Arcimoto is definitely going the low-tech route. Unlike Aptera, most of their design decisions prioritize low-cost rather than maximum efficiency. Hence the DC-motors, lead-acid packs, and more angular body.

The upside? Fewer engineering challenges. I'm pretty certain they will be in production before Aptera. They are also poised to quickly incorporate technology improvements as the increased volume spurred by the EV big boys brings down component costs.

Even with the compromises, they expect the Pulse to have over 400 preorders before they enter production.

[Dolphyn]

Actually wasn't there something about a lithium upgrade?Yes, the spec sheet (http://www.arcimoto.com/vehicle/specifications) shows Lithium-ion batteries for the Premium model.

[SlowSRT4]

Tailgating protection provided by uncovered rear tire throwing rain and gravel in the face of anyone following too closely. Isn't lack of mudflaps or fenders illegal?

Pat Q
3-wheeled vehicles are considered motorcycles and do not have to adhere to any car regulations that might exist regarding that.

[Apt3448]

Tailgating protection provided by uncovered rear tire throwing rain and gravel in the face of anyone following too closely. Isn't lack of mudflaps or fenders illegal?

Pat Q

As long as we're going low tech, a piece of shower curtain should do the trick :D
Actually, I am looking seriously at their progress. My wife would never go for the tandem seating, or me in such a small object on public roads (certainly above 35 mph). But I like the idea. Who knows what will emerge when they keep at it.

[IanO]

Recent Arcimoto news:

They have been showing off their fourth prototype (http://www.arcimoto.com/platform) of the Pulse, now with front wheel drive and regenerative braking. Interesting that they took the same developmental road as Aptera here. They mostly have been doing summertime drivetrain testing, so they decided to leave off the body panels, giving the prototype a distinctly Mad Max appearance. They are fundraising for a fifth prototype. The next one will have extra cooling and low-end torque due to extra testing driving the hills of California.

Earlier, they stumbled into a publicity windfall when Nathan Fillion (star of "Firefly") discovered the vehicle and tweeted his test drive. He was so enthused, he started a donation drive (http://www.arcimoto.com/angels) to help get the next prototype built, so he can buy "his spaceship" a little sooner. The company seems to be lining up enough funding for the Pulse's early development.

Arcimoto is one of three finalists in the Northwest region of the Clean Tech Open (http://www.greenvc.org/2010/10/clean-tech-open-announces-2010-finalists.html). They also made a showing at the Plug-In 2010 conference in San Jose.

[NmGfan]

Given that the Arcimoto has manifestly higher drag and powertrain losses, I would expect there to be much more than a 2:1 difference in effective range using lead-acid in the Arcimoto. 50 miles may be possible at 50mph, whereas we're "supposed" to get an easy 100 mile range at freeway speeds with Aptera. Real-world range ratio under comparable conditions should be at least 3:1.

Another problem with short-range batteries - you use up your "500 cycles" a lot quicker. 500 cycles x 50 miles = 25,000 miles, if all goes well (the EV1 was going thru lead acid packs at about 15K miles at least initially, and my Karmann Ghia only went about 1500 miles). If the best lithium cells really will deiiver 1000 cycles or more, we are exceeding 100K miles of usable lifetime.

Like SlowSRT4 said - all Aptera needs to do is make it.

It will most likely have more aerodynamic drag than an Aptera at freeway speeds, just like everything else on the roads today or in the foreseeable future. However, I'm not convinced that the power train losses will be manifestly higher though. After three years of daily driving, I haven't found any conditions that my DC motor and rear belt drive powered EV to be less efficient in watt hours per mile than anything one could buy or convert today or is proposed to hit the market in the next three years. The highest consumption has been 171 Wh/mi for a 14 mile freeway drive at 65 mph. The lowest I've recorded is 102 Wh/mi for a 9 mile drive at 50 mph with two complete stops and accelerations back to 50 mph. These are pack to motor numbers in real world everyday driving conditions, rain and shine, year round.

I got about 9,600 miles over 3.25 years with over 800 charge cycles out of the original Lead Acid pack. The pack replacement cost was just under $2,000 or roughly $227/kWh for 13 Optima Blue Top batteries.

:happy0025:

[PatQ562]

I got about 9,600 miles over 3.25 years with over 800 charge cycles out of the original Lead Acid pack. The pack replacement cost was just under $2,000 or roughly $227/kWh for 13 Optima Blue Top batteries.
The Optimas are the good stuff, and this is respectable performance, but you still spent over 21 cents per mile in battery wear-out costs, and apparently you used only about 12 miles per recharge, for a very conservative DOD. A gas motor would only require this level of overhaul expense after 100K miles or more. This is why lead acid never really made economic sense as a battery system. We need a "100 mile" system that takes 1000 charges, over a period of 10 years. This is still unproven but allegedly possible with top-grade lithium.
Pat Q

[NmGfan]

The Optimas are the good stuff, and this is respectable performance, but you still spent over 21 cents per mile in battery wear-out costs, and apparently you used only about 12 miles per recharge, for a very conservative DOD. A gas motor would only require this level of overhaul expense after 100K miles or more. This is why lead acid never really made economic sense as a battery system. We need a "100 mile" system that takes 1000 charges, over a period of 10 years. This is still unproven but allegedly possible with top-grade lithium.
Pat Q

I totally agree that Lead Acid doesn't really make sense for longer ranges and more charge cycles compared with Li-Ion. My daily commute involves two round trips home, one is home for lunch and back, for 13.6 miles of driving per day, then recharge overnight. The maximum recommended consumption is about 2,700Wh out of a fully charged 9.3kWh pack or about 30% DOD, the sad reality of Lead Acid. I could probably drive another one-way and half way back before hitting the recommended maximum discharge level though.

Although my costs for battery replacement works out to $0.21/mile the electricity only adds another $0.012/mile so I'm crusin' around at 23.2 cents per mile total cost for a little over 3 years. Working on my next 10K miles.

:happy0025:

[IanO]

Arcimoto will be unveiling their fifth generation Pulse prototype (http://www.arcimoto.com/journey/arcimoto-unveils-red-5) this Saturday the 23rd. I'll be visiting the party. Any questions people want me to ask?

Here are my own concerns:

Previously, they only advertised efficiency at neighborhood speeds. What efficiency do they get at freeway speeds?
Have they measured aerodynamic properties of their prototypes?
What production figures are they planning for? What is their minimum run while still remaining viable?
Any difficulty obtaining funding in this economic climate? (They got the interest of Steve Jurvetson (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/5061260090), a major Tesla investor.)
What lessons have they learned from other fledgeling EV makers who have failed to produce (:logo:, LiIon Motors)?
How does the competition of mainstream EVs (Nissan Leaf) affect their plans?


(My wife's concerns are simply whether she will be comfortable in the rear tandem seat.)

[IanO]

It was more of a party than a presentation, so I didn't get much new information or any of my questions answered. The throbbing dance beats drove me out of the venue early. The Pizza Research Institute, which shares a building with Arcimoto, provided excellent grub, as did Ninkasi whose main brewery is a few blocks down the street. As a former game dev, it was unsurprising that Mark Frohnmeyer was showing off an SRK driving simulation for those who couldn't get through the press of people surrounding the prototype.

Bonus though: I sat next to one of Arcimoto's University of Oregon design department liaisons. She commented that they specifically designed the interior of this tandem two-seater to put the heads of the two occupants at the foci of an ellipse, so that it is easier for the driver and passenger to converse. (This design iteration they were focussing a lot on human factors like this.)

The main news: renamed from Pulse to SRK (http://www.arcimoto.com/products) (because everyone's comment is "it drives like a ShaRK"), drivetrain is more efficient and higher power (to deal with some steep driveways they encountered on their last tour), lighter (curb weight 1700 lbs), and four body styles on a common chassis to sell to more market segments (open frame, custom-patterned canvas, closed body "Pulse", and cargo "Deliverator" with rear seat removed). They reduced the preorder commitment to $100, and expanded availability to the entire US and territories. Next comes an eleven vehicle limited edition run (four are already pre-sold), and after that mass production.

And as expected, Nathan Fillion and "Castle" co-star Jon Huertas were on hand to drive the new prototype to the podium. (Any car maker would be overjoyed to get this much free celebrity publicity, much less a fledgling EV company!)

[PatQ562]

My personal evaluation of Arcimoto is "another brave attempt to slip past the Federal crash standards for "real cars" with a 3-wheel product", but they lack the depth of vision exhibited by the early Aptera or Edison2. So far they do not appear to have burdened themselves with Detroit management, so they remain young and enthusiastic. "Not knowing what you don't know" can help maintain enthusiasm in the face of hurdles, and they should be commended for systematically working thru multiple generations of prototypes, but I don't see the relentless focus on aerodynamic efficiency exhibited by the early Aptera, Edison2, or even the Li-ion Wave2. Therefore, their efficiency at speed is unlikely to be outstanding, and their platform design seems rather ad hoc. Their construction methods are much more mainstream, and thus they might reach at least low volume production at somewhat reasonable cost, but their appeal will be limited to those who want a minimalistic EV instead of a motorcycle. A vehicle like this will not change the world. Still, I would remain interested in their progress as an indication of what is possible.

Pat Q

[BryanSR]

Generation 4 Platform Prototype Specifications



Drive System

HPGC AC50 induction motor
5.13 : 1 ring and pinion gear reduction
Front-wheel drive
Regenerative braking system



Estimated Range

40 miles, base pack, lead-acid batteries
80 miles, commuter pack, lithium iron phosphate batteries
160 miles, touring pack, lithium iron phosphate batteries



Ergonomics

Fully comfortable front and back seat



Safety

3-wheel manual disc brakes
Mechanically actuated parking brake
3-point seat belts
Space frame design with full roll cage and crumple zone

I like the Option I have highlighted above BUT it still looks too much like a golf cart....

[PatQ562]

Despite my lukewarm evaluation, the Arcimoto embodies many perfectly reasonable design decisions, but there's a long way to go before characterizing, confirming, and costing out the rather broad specs shown above. Gen 5 should be informative as they plan to actually make some.
Pat Q

[shotgunslade]

Some confusion on the web-page. The specifications cited above are on the platform page. One the product page, for the SRK specifications, it has the following:

DRIVE TRAIN

Motor horsepower (peak): 83 HP
Motor torque (peak): 130 ft-lb
Motor type: Series wound, brushed DC
Transmission type: Synchronous belt drive, fixed ratio
Transmission ratio: 5.67:1
Battery pack type: 12 AGM lead-acid batteries in series (144VDC nominal)
Battery pack capacity: 8.9 kWh

[NmGfan]

That pack is smaller than the one in my NmG. The motor has twice the HP and Torque, but with a Lead Acid Pack at 144VDC, it will only have about 2,600Wh that are useable, so certainly LESS range than I have (even @ 100Wh/mi efficiency, which I doubt it has).

:happy0025:

[IanO]

While the Triac goes bankrupt and Aptera restructures its debt, Arcimoto's SRK prototype racks up another good review.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/07/13/video-translogic-drives-arcimoto-srk/

[shotgunslade]

This platform certainly has evolved. From belt driven rear wheel, brushed DC motor, to front wheel drive and HPGC AC motor. I'm still not a big fan of the tandem seating. Tough sell to my better half that she gets the back seat.

I put down a deposit today. Would opt for the enclosed version with the Li-ion batteries.

One of these days, one of these suckers is going to come thru. I will have my less than 200 W-hr/mi, reverse tricycle, 2 person, 80+ mi. range, rechargeable overnight at 120V solution.

[eventhusiast]

I dont know...they seem ultra low budget, they have built a couple prototypes but their address is really shady when you google it. Lots of renderings on their site, but no pics of their facility, making the prototypes etc. I am in favor of the low budget guy but i need confirmation from an outside person who visited them, saw what they are doing before I put down money on a vehicle...especially with that google map view.

[shotgunslade]

Your mean right next to the Living Art Botanicals and the Pizza Research Institute.

[PatQ562]

I wish anyone success in the area of simple, low-cost transportation solutions. Arcimoto is aiming considerably lower than Aptera, which may improve the chances of actually delivering something. Their aim is similar to the NMG Duo. They have switched to FWD, but there is still a double belt reduction system coupling motor to axles. This is less perishable than an exposed belt to the wheels, so it may meet the needs of a "medium lifetime" vehicle. The front track is not as wide which may impair rollover stability, although CG is reasonably low. The bodywork is a tubular frame as seen in the photos which they propose to cover with various materials or leave open. Overall, their results, and the amount of testing they can do, are similar to what a skilled person with some money could build for themselves (ie, "kit car" grade), and they have years to go before achieving stable production. There's no "big ideas" in their architecture, other than the generic desire to save the planet by offering a minimalist 3- wheel cabin motorcycle. The Triac is relatively sophisticated compared to the Arcimoto, with its Chinese-made automotive interior, transmission, etc. So if Triac is toast, I have to rate Arcimoto's chances as less than average.

Any such vehicle will be fun to tool around in, and the reviewers would probably have as much fun in a Wheego, Duo, Triac, electric T-Rex, or the like. None of these choices emphasize efficiency and new materials like the Aptera promised.

Those interested in the Duo might like the Arcimoto just as well. I assume the Duo is closer to shipping at least a few vehicles.

Pat Q

[miamisunray]

Hey all... I thought I was the only one who knew about these machines.

One thing I noticed was (I suppose as a result of the somewhat older posts) that you all talk about lead-acid battery packs. I think one can see now that they are offering only one lead-acid solution. The other two are for an 80 mile and a 160 mile lithium-pack.

Unfortunately, I could not follow through with my deposit as I do not reside in the 3 states in their 'fine-print' section, just before you make a deposit.

If I had the time or the inclination I would spend all day blogging about this car to all the 47 other states that CANNOT place a deposit down, to PLEASE contact this company with your verbal support. After all, these folks simply need to know that there are 10's of thousands of folks who would love this vehicle.

There ARE valid points made here, specifically in comparison to the Aptera (yet another start-up that seems to be flapping in the breeze) relating to overall quality, safety..... not to mention the least of which is deliverability...

Someone that replied to one of my posts in the main 2 and 2e forum said "why don't you just put a deposit down on all of them? One of them is bound to come through".... or words to that effect.

in conclusion (collective 'sigh' out there?), i think I still might get something like a cool $1,500 1976 Datsun 260z and have an acquaintance of mine do a complete $10,000 Lead-acid conversion on it. At least I can go to Publix in a car I have always liked.... and I'll be doing my envirnmental part....

Ray

Miami Beach

[PatQ562]

I have noticed a rising tide of kit-car Speedsters with electric conversions. The standard repros are built on VW chassis with charming Speedster bodies and a late-model air cooled VW motor. The electric conversion adds about $20K-$25K to install 450 lbs of Flux Power's finest lithium batteries, with a bus voltage of about 100-115Vdc, and somebody's AC motor and 3-phase controller, running thru the original VW transmission for more flexibility and sporty shifting. Euromasters here in Costa Mesa CA is selling theirs retail for $49,995.

All this makes me think that for $10K or somewhat higher, you could do better than lead-acid, which aside from high weight, suffers from short lifetime. If you settled for a DC motor, I believe you can get a Warp motor and good controller for about $4K. This leaves $6K for batteries (probably including $1K for a charger). If you can get a deal, $5K should buy about 16kWh worth of Thundersky lithium or maybe even Flux power. This assumes your friend knows how to do all this, and is willing to work for free.
For several $K more, you might be able to go AC brushless, for a little more power and range, but if you plan to keep the transmission, the DC motor might actually be a reasonable choice.
Once you know the desired operating voltage for your chosen motor (say 100V), divide by nominal cell voltage (3.3V) to obtain a stack of 30 cells; the 160Ah or even 200Ah cells will weigh about 15 lbs each, or about 450 lbs total. A pack this size in a minimalist vehicle should give you the 100 mile range everyone wants, at reasonably moderate speeds, and will not take up excessive space in the car. An old, lightweight, fairly streamlined sports car is a reasonable choice for an efficient platform - a rear engine/RWD or front engine/FWD car may make even more sense -- although one builder on the DIY EV site cautions readers not to start with a junky car, as you will be stuck with it after spending all the money on the power train.

Pat Q

[miamisunray]

Interesting post, thanks.

Yes, I have always thought about getting a Lotus esprit or an older Ferarri 308 and have a conversion done (much to the utter horror of the purists of the aforementioned), but the cheapest Lotus I have found is around $10K.. still way out of MY range for an electric car.

I will certainly do more research along the lines of a $15,000 conversion,say, including labor---if I can--, then I can select a reasonable 'under 2 grand' donor car for the ultimate local driving experience. some of the cars I like for that are:

Opel Gt
Lotus (any)
Datsun 240, 260
Corvette would not be out of the question
any cool classic car
Fiat X19,
Lancia zagato
Aptera... oops....

[eventhusiast]

Pat, the motor going into the speedsters is an AC unit with regen, an AC-50 puts out i believe 67hp, the motor and controller cost under $5k, this would have been perfect for Aptera

The main thing i dont like about Arcimoto, the car looks so unfinished and low budget, especially the open cockpit model.

[BryanSR]

Interesting post, thanks.

Yes, I have always thought about getting a Lotus esprit or an older Ferarri 308 and have a conversion done (much to the utter horror of the purists of the aforementioned), but the cheapest Lotus I have found is around $10K.. still way out of MY range for an electric car.

I will certainly do more research along the lines of a $15,000 conversion,say, including labor---if I can--, then I can select a reasonable 'under 2 grand' donor car for the ultimate local driving experience. some of the cars I like for that are:

Opel Gt
Lotus (any)
Datsun 240, 260
Corvette would not be out of the question
any cool classic car
Fiat X19,
Lancia zagato
Aptera... oops....
I have a 1993 Mercury Capri convertible that I would LOVE to convert... It is in good condidtion BUT I don't have the physical ability anymore or a place or tools to do the job anymore. There is a guy down under in Australia who did one with the help of many people & he even got sponsors after his film got popular for a minute...

[miamisunray]

HEHE... I like your take on the Desiderata!!

Yes, you are right about the open cockpit one. That's why I was excited when I scrolled down to see they actually DO have enclosures for the thing. I think it looks cool enough... A bit 'low-budget", perhaps, but at an anticipated $20,000 I would expect top-notch production values... otherwise forget it.

The more I think about the former post mentioning the cost of a reasonable li-battery pack suggests to me that perhaps, since it will be around a year from now that I will actually be buying something, that I indeed WILL get a cool donor car, and have someone do a conversion, hopefully for no more than $15,000 all-inclusive of labor. In a year the prices and quality of li batteries may be down a bit... so all will be good. A nice, clean, production vehicle would be nice.... but it seems that most of us are just butting our heads against our collective wall wondering when these things will become available, and at what price.

It seems these companies should keep rock-solid quiet about what they are doing, until they are financed and ready-to-go. Otherwise they are just turning off people like you and me.

[PatQ562]

Yeah, too bad about the "Aptera---oops". Oh Well. Other interesting donor cars are as humble as the VW bug (actually slightly lighter and more aero than the Karmann Ghia), various early Honda Civics if you can find an intact one, and VW-based kit cars such as the afore-mentioned Speedster or dune buggy if you like open-air motoring. VW parts are widely supported in stock form or beefed up for the dune buggy crowd. Another possible candidate is an original Mini, surely one of the neatest packaging jobs for four adults, with legendarily nimble handling. The good thing about old, tin-can cars is they didn't need power steering or brakes which removes considerable complexities from the EV conversion.

Pat Q

[miamisunray]

True, lots of cars to consider. Here's hoping that we hear some fantastic news that SOME EV start-up is finally producing cars available for FLORIDA... not just Caleefornya.

There's so much money down here you'd think there was a Florida-based EV.... however I have not heard of one.