Fiat 500...coming THIS YEAR...

[aptera1213]

Though not in EV form.

Still it is a damn cute car. Maybe I will buy one as a stop-gap car till EVs are really ready and on the road.

Or maybe I can just keep waiting...sigh.

A Fiat 500 EV would be soooo sweet. Perfect for the city AND good looking.

GavinABG post here (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/02/11/gilles-fiat-500-on-sale-in-u-s-by-the-end-of-2010/)


and news that the Leaf is coming in Dec...yikes, more and more good news.

[SEGsby]

The F500 is cute. I just don't want to go smaller than my bug, and lose cargo area. Too many things to haul around...

[SlowSRT4]

The F500 is cute. I just don't want to go smaller than my bug, and lose cargo area. Too many things to haul around...
Beetle? I'm sure it has at least as much cargo space. I saw it at the auto show and was amazed how much cargo room it has for being such a small car. :)

Not sure what the exact cubic feet are. :character0026:

[RainCaster]

The F500's in the UK are peppy little cars, and not much bigger than a Smart.

[SEGsby]

There used to be a Smart Car dealer just a couple streets down from my home, so I looked at them pretty carefully when they first opened.

I can't put anything useful in the back of a Smart. They're just too darn small.

The New Beetle has a pretty large storage area, but it's similar to the Aptera in that the cargo space tapers and is longer than it is tall. I'm fine with that.

Full sized cellos in hard cases, Segways, stage amps and Etherwave Pro's all fit back there in the bug, when the rear seat is folded.

Dunno how large the cargo area of the F500 is, but the entire car is smaller than mine-- so it can't be too big...

[SlowSRT4]

The Fiat 500 is not the size of a Smart. It has a back seat for starters...

But yes, you are right segsby, the Fiat 500 does have a smaller boot.

New Beetle

Rear seats up: 12 cu ft
Rear seats folded: 27.1 cu ft


Fiat 500

Rear seats up: 6.5 cu ft
Rear seats folded: 19.4 cu ft


But the Fiat 500 gets considerably better fuel economy. I can't believe the Beetle only gets 20/29. My Caliber is a large 5 door hatchback with 285 hp and it is 19/27. Rear seats up is 18.5 cu ft. and rear seats folded is 48 cu ft.

Fiat 500 FTW

[SEGsby]

The New Beetle is very heavy. The rumor was that VW wanted to put a completely glass covered roof on it (from windshield to rear hatch), so it was designed to be heavily reinforced to prevent frame flexion, like a convertible. The big single piece of glass on top, didn't work out in the end, but the rest of it was already designed. So when they put more sheet metal up there, it was REALLY SOLID AND REALLY HEAVY for it's size. Other collaborating evidence can be found in the lack of an overhead dome light, which was moved and integrated into the rearview mirror.

So yeah. New Bugs are not great on gas. :( I try to eliminate as many local trips using my two wheeled EV, as possible.

[DSC OFF]

Oh please, please let us get this version as well:

http://autoworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/fiat-500-abarth-essesse-official-img_3.jpg

[aptera1213]

Yeah...that one is a direct competitor to the Mini...lovely little car.

List of how I would buy my next car:

Aptera (If it gets made)
Fiat 500 EV
Th!nkCity EV
iMIEV/LEAF---I don't really love the LEAF, but an EV coming this year for 23 thou...yikes, hard to pass that up.

But a 500 EV would be my first choice if Aptera fails.

Gavin

[BrianK]

I've heard the Abarth is coming here. It's on my short list of alternatives, as well.

[Apt3448]

The Abarth 500? I'm definitely interested in the specs here. No details yet I presume, but what do you know? I thought Abarth was only making race cars (ah, all the gorgeous design from Torino - I love it there)

BTW: when I grew up, the fiat 500 (the original) was even by european standards considered very small. They were one of the firsts to offer seat belts as a standard if I recall correctly (yes, there was a time before seat belts). I recall this only because the joke at the time was that these were only there so that in case of engine failure you could use the 500 as a backpack.

[SlowSRT4]

The Fiat 500 is huge compared to the Peel P50:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo

[SEGsby]

Yeah, cute car... But mah Cello's too bigggggggggggggggh. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PONvX6LmAPo

[Apt3448]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PONvX6LmAPo
:sign0020:
You must have too much time on your hands! Now go practice on that cello!

[SEGsby]

Aww. It's friday... :(

[DSC OFF]

It looks like the Abarth might even be the 1st one available!

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1042538_2011-fiat-500-mini-car-on-sale-by-end-of-year-chrysler-says

[aptera1213]

With Fiat saying the 500 EV is not in their near plans (just a proof of concept), can Th!nk steal that body and throw in on their City? ;)

Gavin

[BrianK]

The Abarth 500? I'm definitely interested in the specs here. No details yet I presume, but what do you know?
All I know is rumor and conjecture. The current 500 Abarth has a 135hp 1.4 liter motor and weighs in at around 2300 lbs with a 0-60 of around 7 seconds. I suspect the US version will be a little heavier. No idea what will power it - I believe Chrysler's only EPA approved 4 cylinder is that of the Caliber & you have to wonder if it will fit in the tiny engine bay of the 500. Maybe it will come with a new-to-the-US motor.

The current car's wheelbase is 7" shorter than the Mini - about the same as a Lotus Elise or a Miata for comparison. I would guess it will be a hoot to drive.

Looks like it may be 2 years before it comes out. The rumor mill has the price set at around $19K for the Abarth.

[SlowSRT4]

All I know is rumor and conjecture. The current 500 Abarth has a 135hp 1.4 liter motor and weighs in at around 2300 lbs with a 0-60 of around 7 seconds. I suspect the US version will be a little heavier. No idea what will power it - I believe Chrysler's only EPA approved 4 cylinder is that of the Caliber & you have to wonder if it will fit in the tiny engine bay of the 500. Maybe it will come with a new-to-the-US motor.

The current car's wheelbase is 7" shorter than the Mini - about the same as a Lotus Elise or a Miata for comparison. I would guess it will be a hoot to drive.

Looks like it may be 2 years before it comes out. The rumor mill has the price set at around $19K for the Abarth.
I don't know where you are getting this information.

Curb weight on wikipedia is listed as:
Curb weight 865–980 kg (1,910–2,160 lb)

But as you said, that could increase slightly due to US homologation such as low-speed bumper.

The Fiat 500 will use Fiat's brand new MultiAir 1.4L Fully Integrated Robotized Engine. It will be built at Chrysler's advanced GEMA engine plant.

Source:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/17/chrysler-announces-179-million-investment-in-dundee-plant-to-bu/

So the power of the base 1.4L will be 99 hp, 97 lbs-ft torque. Abarth will be 133 hp, 152 lbs-ft torque. But if we are really lucky, we will also get the Abarth SS with 160 hp, 170 lbs-ft torque. :happy0025:

It won't be two years before it comes out. Fiat 500 is scheduled to be on sale by the end of this year. :doublethumbs:

[palmer_md]

According to this guy's site it is :

The launch dates for the various models of the Fiat 500 are:

Fiat 500: December 2010
Fiat 500c: mid 2011 (estimate)
Fiat 500 Abarth: fourth quarter 2011
Fiat 500C Abarth: not announced yet

These dates are from the various Chrysler sources. Of course, dates can change, but as of now, let's go with these.

http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/

Sa86DG1NJD8

[SlowSRT4]

That is true. Looks like the Abarth will come later. Oh well. The regular 500 is still a solid buy, just a bit less sporty, but also cheaper.

[BrianK]

I don't know where you are getting this information.

Car and Driver mainly.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q1/2009_fiat_500_abarth-first_drive_review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q3/2009_fiat_500_abarth_-second_drive

maybe the abarth is heavier? larger wheels + larger tires + turbo + ground effects = 100 lbs or so? Maybe it's dry -vs- wet weight? meh... splitting hairs.

Thanks for the updated info. ;)

[SlowSRT4]

Car and Driver mainly.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q1/2009_fiat_500_abarth-first_drive_review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/09q3/2009_fiat_500_abarth_-second_drive

maybe the abarth is heavier? larger wheels + larger tires + turbo + ground effects = 100 lbs or so? Maybe it's dry -vs- wet weight? meh... splitting hairs.

Thanks for the updated info. ;)
PROJECTED FUEL ECONOMY (C/D EST):
EPA city/highway driving: 25/33 mpg
They must just be pulling these numbers out of their asses. Larger, heavier cars such as the Aveo, Fit, etc. currently get better gas mileage than that.

[Matthijs]

UpAFi9nIJVQ
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ)

The 500 Abarth Esseesse has 160bhp and 230Nm at 3,000rpm. Fiat says the car travels from a 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds and has a top speed of 131mph fuel economy and CO2 emissions are unchanged.

[BrianK]

They must just be pulling these numbers out of their asses. Larger, heavier cars such as the Aveo, Fit, etc. currently get better gas mileage than that.
Well, it's not just the weight that plays into MPG. I bet the base 500 gets great mileage (over 40mpg according to this article (http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/06/05/fiat-500-to-get-more-than-40-mpg-in-the-us-fiat-engineers-and-execs-in-detroit-setting-up-launch/)), but slap a turbo on it, tune it up to 130hp & mileage goes down. Look at these as examples of mileage not being directly related to weight:

Smart car - 1800lbs, 33/41 mpg.
Mazda Miata - 2500 lbs, 21/28.
Lotus Elise - 2000 lbs, 21/27.
Toyota Corolla - 2700 lbs, 26/35.
Audi A4 - 3500 lbs, 23/30.

I agree with you that the figures seem low. Seems like a better engine choice would make for better economy, but the sacrifice is weight, handling, and packaging. I guess we'll see what happens when it finally heads this way. Certainly less weight = better fuel economy always, but the engine choice has a lot to do with the MPG rating as well. :indifferent0011:

[NeilBlanchard]

Don't forget the Toyota iQ! Weighs very close to the Smart, but get much better mileage.

[Matthijs]

The Fiat 500 will also come with 2 cylinder multiair engines that give the 500 as good of a milage as the IQ:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autointernationaal.nl%2Fartikel .php%3Fid%3D14390
http://bit.ly/c6iDh2

And Renault is coming with a direct competitor of the iQ with a small Twingo, maybe even electric!

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autointernationaal.nl%2Fartikel .php%3Fid%3D14390

http://www.autointernationaal.nl/img/fotogroot/Twingo2012A.jpg
http://www.autointernationaal.nl/img/Image/Twingo2012A2.jpg

[SlowSRT4]

Don't forget the Toyota iQ! Weighs very close to the Smart, but get much better mileage.
Is that sold in the US?

[RainCaster]

Yeah, cute car... But mah Cello's too bigggggggggggggggh. :(

My daily driver (Honda S2000) can't carry any of my acoustic guitars or my mando. Still, it is not a requirement for me when I'm commuting. and that IS a cute car...

[SlowSRT4]

My daily driver (Honda S2000) can't carry any of my acoustic guitars or my mando. Still, it is not a requirement for me when I'm commuting. and that IS a cute car...
Want to race? :evilgrin0013:

[RainCaster]

http://www.nextautos.com/files/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/abarth-500.jpg
I am renting one of these on my next visit to the UK. Should be more fun than my usual diesel powered minicar.

[Matthijs]

Are you renting an Abarth version? That would be fun! You can rent a standard version here in Holland for only €25 Euro's a day including 150 km free ex fuel. Also a very nice prize if you need a car to go longer distances than your (future) EV can do. In Geneva they presented the 2 cylinder multi-air version. That would be an interesting version.

[SlowSRT4]

Haha!

The US version will actually be lighter than the original, in addition to other improvements. :doublethumbs:

http://www.insideline.com/fiat/500/us-market-fiat-500-will-be-upgraded.html

Just more and more good news about my next car. :biggrin:

[aptera1213]

good news...i can see this as my next car...just make an ev version of the abarth :)

Gavin

[Matthijs]

In Europe they cannot use the name Cinquecento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Cinquecento) because it was already in use for an older model:

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7153/250pxfiatcinquecentofro.jpg


My sister has a Siecento (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Seicento):

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6836/250pxseicentosx2001.jpg

[RainCaster]

Are you renting an Abarth version? That would be fun! .


Yes! I get the Abarth version, but it won't be the SS.

[aptera1213]

I wonder how much it would cost to convert a base model to a pure EV...

15,000 for the car...sell the engine and exhaust for a couple thousand?

then ?? for EV parts and ?? for the batteries and ?? for the labor.

Gavin

[Matthijs]

Here is someone who did a AC conversion with a Seicento with Siemens parts but he made it a lead sled. http://www.evalbum.com/326.html

But you can make it as cheap or expensive as you want. I posted this question in another part of the forum as well: "Will the conversion market die because of the lack of incentives for conversions?"

But a good lithium conversion will set you back at least 20K if you choose good quality AC parts.

[aptera1213]

So 15k for a Fiat 500, add 20k for conversion...

subtract conversion incentive of 4k, a couple of k for selling the engine and exhaust and such...

so about 30k ?

I'd buy a Fiat 500 EV for 30K.

Gavin

[Matthijs]

If there was a 4K incentive here in Holland people would do a lot more conversions. All subsidies here are only for companies now. The best thing about an conversion is that you can choose your own favorite vehicle and convert it. I would like to convert this car: http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/A2TDI/content.shtml

[SlowSRT4]

So 15k for a Fiat 500, add 20k for conversion...

subtract conversion incentive of 4k, a couple of k for selling the engine and exhaust and such...

so about 30k ?

I'd buy a Fiat 500 EV for 30K.

Gavin
You said you only drive like 10 miles right? So you could get away with only a 20 mile, maybe 30 mile pack?

[aptera1213]

True...but I'd prefer a 60 miles pack minimum.

I'd love to put a similar pack to the th!nk in the Fiat 500...compact and low...should fit great if the Fiat was made to accommodate it...likely not though.

Personally I don't mind a conversion, but I would love Fiat to make the 500 an EV from scratch, so everything fit nicely and the weight would be nice and low and centered.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Don't know where they put the batteries, but look at that beastly motor!

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2010-fiat-500-bev_100303621_l.jpg

[KarenRei]

Is that a motor? Looks more like an inverter.

[Matthijs]

That's the controller. ;) Very clean setup btw. That's hard to achieve with a diy conversion. Very nice casing.

Edit: Karen beat me to it.

[aptera1213]

That's the controller. ;) Very clean setup btw. That's hard to achieve with a diy conversion. Very nice casing.

Edit: Karen beat me to it.

which is why I'd love for fiat to make it instead of me ;)

Gavin

[SEGsby]

Wow, clean looking. Nice.

Yeah... Batteries. Gonna guess that tiny cargo area got filled up with them?

[APTODRIV]

Can't see a motor or transmission under there. Possibly wheel motors?

[aptera1213]

If wheel motors, well while in theory that would be great, that would also be expensive.

I love the clean look under the hood, but wouldn't mind it being a bit more crowded if they threw the motor and trans in there and saved some money.

Though I imagine it will be a while before they bring a 500ev to the states.

Sad...it would be great if they threw all the Chrysler ev people at this hard and got it out about the same time as the LEAF. It could sell tons.

But that's just dreaming. I guess if I want to wildly dream, hell Th!nk throw a new shell on the city that looks just like the 500. I'd love that too and the City is ready to roll now as an EV.

Gavin

[evmavin]

The motor most likely under the inverter, and you can do a conversion that nice if you by an new car and AC parts and know what you are doing. Most conversion are done with DC motors, junk cars and slapped together. It is not difficult at all to make a car look factory with a conversion because that is what you are looking at in the picture. Notice the HV lines leaving the inverter and attached under.

[aptera1213]

cool...hey evmavin...if i buy a new 500 and the ac parts, will you make me an "engine" as pretty as that image above?

and if so, how much in labor?

:)

Gavin

[evmavin]

cool...hey evmavin...if i buy a new 500 and the ac parts, will you make me an "engine" as pretty as that image above?

and if so, how much in labor?

:)

Gavin


Conversions take much time, having nice AC parts other than (Azure) to work with make the process much simpler and cleaner. Most of the high-end components have great wiring harnesses and there are sealed charger options. I don't mind helping on conversion of new cars but not the old dirty ones:)

[Matthijs]

What I am most interested about is how to let on a modern car work things like ESP, ASR and other drive train electronics. All manufactures use different Canbus systems/profiles. This way you can make your conversion really look oem.

[aptera1213]

well it may be time for me to get my Aptera deposit back....

I had hoped to see the 500EV in the states sooner, but 2012 is probably about the same time as we might see the Aptera 2e and other EVs...

Only the LEAF and Th!nk and maybe the iMiEV will be here in 2011, so 2012 isn't too awful.

And maybe they will bump it up and get it here either late 2011 or early 2012??

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35983815/ns/business-autos/

So, maybe a Th!nk in 2011 or the 500EV in 2012...

I like small cars obviously.

Gavin

Edit...oh, forgot the Ford Focus EV for 2011 or 2012...so 2012 will be a good time for potential EV buyers.

[SlowSRT4]

Wow, for a minute there I thought you were just pondering about no Fiat 500 EV again. But that is an official announcement! I always thought they would make it eventually. That is great news! :happy0005:

I think they actually saw your forum posts Gavin and decided to make it. :scared0016:

[aptera1213]

Ha...I hope so...Maybe they will sell me the first one??

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Ha...I hope so...Maybe they will sell me the first one??

Gavin
Unfortunately the first car of any model goes straight to Jay Leno. :character0025:

But perhaps you can get the second. :doublethumbs:

[palmer_md]

SlowSRT4 and Gavin,

I suggest you log on to this site:

http://fiat500forums.com/

This is the Aptera forum. Just kidding...haha.

[SlowSRT4]

SlowSRT4 and Gavin,

I suggest you log on to this site:

http://fiat500forums.com/

This is the Aptera forum. Just kidding...haha.
Rofl. Too bad it looks like that site isn't very active and it is mostly European.

But, since we are in the "Competitors of Aptera" forum. Perhaps we can adjust this forum slightly and change it to the official Fiat 500 EV forum. :thumbsup:
Yep, I think we'll unpack our things and make ourselves comfortable right here. :wavey:

[SlowSRT4]

Well now that the Fiat 500 EV is official I think that is a competitor to the Duo.

Duo

Width 72”

Length 144”

Height 58”


Fiat 500

Width 64”

Length 139.6”

Height 58.6"


The main difference is obviously the Fiat 500 being four wheels vs three on the Duo. So the Fiat 500 maintains smaller dimensions but will have more cargo capacity and offer seating for four in a pinch (back seat is a bit cramped). I also suspect the pricing will be similar since the Fiat 500 will benefit from economies of scale and qualify for a larger federal tax rebate. Probably the full $7500 in fact, since it is a 4-wheel, 4-seater, and has a 22 kwh pack.

[evmavin]

Well now that the Fiat 500 EV is official I think that is a competitor to the Duo.

Duo

Width 72”

Length 144”

Height 58”


Fiat 500

Width 64”

Length 139.6”

Height 58.6"


The main difference is obviously the Fiat 500 being four wheels vs three on the Duo. So the Fiat 500 maintains smaller dimensions but will have more cargo capacity and offer seating for four in a pinch (back seat is a bit cramped). I also suspect the pricing will be similar since the Fiat 500 will benefit from economies of scale and qualify for a larger federal tax rebate. Probably the full $7500 in fact, since it is a 4-wheel, 4-seater, and has a 22 kwh pack.



And it's a factory EV, AC drive, has a dealer network, will most likely be far safer, more reliable, better built, have less maintenance, better resale, etc, etc, etc.

[NmGfan]

And it's a factory EV, AC drive, has a dealer network, will most likely be far safer, more reliable, better built, have less maintenance, better resale, etc, etc, etc.

Let's not forget it will be an ICE conversion vehicle with the bodies sourced from the Mexican assembly plant where the ICE powered 500 will be produced. Translated into not aerodynamic, heavier than ICE powered, may not have a back seat like a Mini conversion (where are 22kWh of batteries going to hide?), made safer by adding massive structural improvements to meet vehicle safety requirements (added weight), and probably way worse than 200Wh/mi. So how far can one go on those 22kWh of batteries? Probably less distance than a 2e using a "not 22kWh pack". It will have the more efficient AC drive with regen though. "Better Built" like most other Fix It Again Tony's, only this time made it Mexico by that hallmark of American quality automobiles, Chrysler.

:happy0025:

[SlowSRT4]

Actually it is very safe, and light, and aerodynamic.

"With a drag coefficient of just 0.32 Cd, the 500 slips through the air with greater efficiency than just about any rival small car. It is also exceptionally light — the top-of-the-line 1.4 model tested here tips the scales at a modest 2,050 pounds, complete with seven airbags (including a knee airbag for the driver) and a whole load of standard features. By comparison, the Mini Cooper weighs 2,348 pounds." source (http://www.insideline.com/fiat/500/first-drive-2008-fiat-500.html)


I'm guessing the coefficient of drag won't be as good as the Duo, what with having 4 wheels and all. But it certainly isn't terrible and still would be very efficient at highway speeds and do very well in the city with its low weight and regenerative braking.

The weight will increase in EV form of course. But assuming a 400 lb battery pack, that is still only 2,400 lbs, which is actually still considered very light for traditional cars that have to meet safety regulations.

From what I was reading on a Wired article, they said that the batteries are under the floor, and not in the back seat.

"He wasn’t available for comment, but we can tell you this car appears to be the real deal. We crawled over and under it, and this isn’t some slick shell on a tube frame (cough Toyota FT-CH hybrid cough). There’s a real motor under the hood, a real battery under the floor and all the interior bits you’d expect of a production car. We’re not sure why, but it’s even got five-point racing harnesses. Seriously." source (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/electric-fiat-500-bellissimo/)

The car is being made safer and structurally stronger for the US version, but it is actually lighter than the European version and "It will be built around Fiat's new-generation baby car A platform, which will also be used on the 2011 Lancia Ypsilon and Fiat Panda."
"The main benefits of the new platform are improved crash protection, reduced noise, vibration and harshness and a lighter body-in-white, all areas in which the U.S. 500 will be slightly superior to the European version. Europe will not be getting the update because the sizable cost of switching platforms is not justified by the gains. But the change-over makes sense in the U.S. because the 500 is being produced at a new plant on new machinery." source (http://www.insideline.com/fiat/500/us-market-fiat-500-will-be-upgraded.html)

The last of your comments I basically have to just laugh at. I don't know why you would be trying to make fun of the car because it is associated with Fiat and Chrysler. Fix It Again Tony was used in like the 60's. That's like saying the new Ford Focus EV will suck because Ford stands for "Found On Road Dead". It's not like the Duo is completely proven-out. Who's to say that chassis would be more durable than the Fiat? I doubt it.

[evmavin]

Actually it is very safe, and light, and aerodynamic.

"With a drag coefficient of just 0.32 Cd, the 500 slips through the air with greater efficiency than just about any rival small car. It is also exceptionally light — the top-of-the-line 1.4 model tested here tips the scales at a modest 2,050 pounds, complete with seven airbags (including a knee airbag for the driver) and a whole load of standard features. By comparison, the Mini Cooper weighs 2,348 pounds." source (http://www.insideline.com/fiat/500/first-drive-2008-fiat-500.html)


I'm guessing the coefficient of drag won't be as good as the Duo, what with having 4 wheels and all. But it certainly isn't terrible and still would be very efficient at highway speeds and do very well in the city with its low weight and regenerative braking.

The weight will increase in EV form of course. But assuming a 400 lb battery pack, that is still only 2,400 lbs, which is actually still considered very light for traditional cars that have to meet safety regulations.

From what I was reading on a Wired article, they said that the batteries are under the floor, and not in the back seat.

"He wasn’t available for comment, but we can tell you this car appears to be the real deal. We crawled over and under it, and this isn’t some slick shell on a tube frame (cough Toyota FT-CH hybrid cough). There’s a real motor under the hood, a real battery under the floor and all the interior bits you’d expect of a production car. We’re not sure why, but it’s even got five-point racing harnesses. Seriously." source (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/electric-fiat-500-bellissimo/)

The car is being made safer and structurally stronger for the US version, but it is actually lighter than the European version and "It will be built around Fiat's new-generation baby car A platform, which will also be used on the 2011 Lancia Ypsilon and Fiat Panda."
"The main benefits of the new platform are improved crash protection, reduced noise, vibration and harshness and a lighter body-in-white, all areas in which the U.S. 500 will be slightly superior to the European version. Europe will not be getting the update because the sizable cost of switching platforms is not justified by the gains. But the change-over makes sense in the U.S. because the 500 is being produced at a new plant on new machinery." source (http://www.insideline.com/fiat/500/us-market-fiat-500-will-be-upgraded.html)

The last of your comments I basically have to just laugh at. I don't know why you would be trying to make fun of the car because it is associated with Fiat and Chrysler. Fix It Again Tony was used in like the 60's. That's like saying the new Ford Focus EV will suck because Ford stands for "Found On Road Dead". It's not like the Duo is completely proven-out. Who's to say that chassis would be more durable than the Fiat? I doubt it.


I agree with what you said, the Tony part applied in the mid 80's for sure, I saw it first hand. You also need to subtract the ICE component weight and and more for other parts besides the pack but it will be of far better quality than the duo for sure. A bit pointless as I see the duo either not happening or dying fast as a viable option.

[Matthijs]

From experience I can tell you that Fiat has come a very long way when it comes to build quality. Very nice materials and sturdy feel. The 80' history is like it never was. And the 500 is very save. It has one of the best Euro Ncap scores ever for a small car: http://www.euroncap.com/tests/fiat_500_2007/298.aspx

[SlowSRT4]

From experience I can tell you that Fiat has come a very long way when it comes to build quality. Very nice materials and sturdy feel. The 80' history is like it never was. And the 500 is very save. It has one of the best Euro Ncap scores ever for a small car: http://www.euroncap.com/tests/fiat_500_2007/298.aspx
Exactly, it seems to be very safe and well-constructed. Then the US version is even improved over that, riding on the newest platform.

It doesn't matter that Fiat quality or Ford quality used to be mocked. Because right now, both of those have very high quality. I will feel completely confident driving a Fiat 500.

Originally I was very interested in the Duo and some other EVs. But then the Fiat 500 EV was announced, and it suits my needs perfectly so that is what I will buy. :doublethumbs:

[aptera1213]

I hope Fiat learns from Th!nk and not the Mini...do the batteries right and you don't lose the back seat...not that I plan to use the back seat, but it would still be smart to have it available....

If the Th!nk can get the batteries in under the seats and keep a back seat, I'm sure Fiat can too if they don't get lazy.

Gavin

[Matthijs]

In Germany they made a 500 EV (Check the plate) which can use the charge cable/plug to download data such as Podcasts, video or make use of an high speed Internet connection. This would be cool while having a quick charge! They are using the Mennekes plug (http://green.autoblog.com/tag/Mennekes+plug/) as this will be the European standard opposed to the J1772 for the US.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2expit3.jpg
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Newscenter/Pages/GenevaAutoShow.aspx
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/Newscenter/Pages/GenevaRWEElectricCars.aspx

[RainCaster]

I hope Fiat learns from Th!nk and not the Mini...do the batteries right and you don't lose the back seat...not that I plan to use the back seat, but it would still be smart to have it available....

If the Th!nk can get the batteries in under the seats and keep a back seat, I'm sure Fiat can too if they don't get lazy.

Gavin
Gavin,
I'm driving a Fiat 500 around England this week, and I can tell you that the back seat is non-existant. Yes, it has a seat behind the two front ones, but there is no room for legs. This makes it a nicely upholstered space for your groceries, or your dog. So please have no illusions that the rear seat is unusable by any human taller than a toddler. It is only usefull in getting an extra tax break.

Having said that, the car handles better than a Smart (I have the Abarth version- petrol/turbo engine), but not as responsive as my Honda S2000. It does make the roundabouts more fun. :happy0020:
RC

[SlowSRT4]

Gavin,
I'm driving a Fiat 500 around England this week, and I can tell you that the back seat is non-existant. Yes, it has a seat behind the two front ones, but there is no room for legs. This makes it a nicely upholstered space for your groceries, or your dog. So please have no illusions that the rear seat is unusable by any human taller than a toddler. It is only usefull in getting an extra tax break.
Well according to Autoblog:

"Despite our concerns about the covering, the seats were comfortable and supportive with plenty of room and grip. The backseat could even accommodate a pair of adults if the front seat occupants were no bigger than average. We had a 6-foot beanpole and a 300-lb, ex-intramural footballer back there and neither had reason to complain. There's not a ton of luggage room with all four seats occupied, but no worse than in a Mini Cooper for instance."

[aptera1213]

I mostly want the back seat open so I can put the seat down and have a larger back area...and I think it would be nice for people who have small kids.
And heck, I was in college, I know for sure you can put people just about anywhere...is it comfortable? Nope. Does it get people from point A to point B? Yep. And in reality I will be alone 90% of the time commuting, driving with me and my wife 9% of the time going to dinner or such, and craming a relative (brother or niece or something like that) in the back 1% of the time. Oh, and maybe our dogs in the back...but they don't mind small spaces as long as they are going to the dog park or someplace fun.

Gavin

[aptera1213]

ABG spy shot (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/06/spied-fiat-500-spotted-with-manufacturer-plates-in-colorado/)

Well it seems there is a Colorado version of byplug :) Somebody is out taking spy shots of the Fiat 500 driving in Colorado.

Great to see this car is coming to the states next year...I hope they speed things up and get the Electric here at the same time. That would be sweet.

The way I see it...Both Ford and Fiat should get some info out before 4/20. On 4/20 people can start putting down deposits on the LEAF. I will likely do just that....BUT if Ford or Fiat said, hey, this is some info on our car and we will also be taking deposits this summer...well I just might wait. Especially for that 500EV...gah, it's like the Th!nk, but instead of cute (which is nice), it is dead sexy.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

I guess spotting that in Colorado is a rare sighting indeed.

Because I was about to say that these have been running around Detroit for a while now. People have been spotting them and most seem to really love the styling of the diminutive little 500.

I saw a regular white one myself, but Abarth versions have been spotted as well by others. No EV sightings yet. :wavey:

[RainCaster]

I am driving an Abart version this week, courtesy of Hertz. The car is great fun, although it is much slower than my Honda S2000. It is quite stable up to 110, and I couldn't get the Audi ahead of me to go any faster. :) Handling isn't great, but it is better than your standard sub-micro-rent-a-car.

Plenty of room inside for two, and room in the back seat for the dogs- not for humans with legs. I am looking forward to the electric version- it should have the same interior space as the Aptera (more or less) and will get a higher government rebate since it is a 4 seater. A very short car- I could easily fit 2 of them in the kids bay of our garage. Barely longer and wider than a Smart4Two.

[RainCaster]

Well according to Autoblog:

"Despite our concerns about the covering, the seats were comfortable and supportive with plenty of room and grip. The backseat could even accommodate a pair of adults if the front seat occupants were no bigger than average. We had a 6-foot beanpole and a 300-lb, ex-intramural footballer back there and neither had reason to complain. There's not a ton of luggage room with all four seats occupied, but no worse than in a Mini Cooper for instance."

IMO, AutoBlog must be mistaking the Fiat 500 for some other car. I have been all over SoCal in the back seat of a Mini Cooper, and it was much bigger inside than the 500.

[Dolphyn]

Here's the article, including a lot of photos: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/04/first-ride-trekking-fiat-500-makes-socal-stop/

[SlowSRT4]

I am driving an Abart version this week, courtesy of Hertz. The car is great fun, although it is much slower than my Honda S2000. It is quite stable up to 110, and I couldn't get the Audi ahead of me to go any faster. :) Handling isn't great, but it is better than your standard sub-micro-rent-a-car.

Plenty of room inside for two, and room in the back seat for the dogs- not for humans with legs. I am looking forward to the electric version- it should have the same interior space as the Aptera (more or less) and will get a higher government rebate since it is a 4 seater. A very short car- I could easily fit 2 of them in the kids bay of our garage. Barely longer and wider than a Smart4Two.
Well you have to consider it for what it is. The car is not super low, and it has a very short wheelbase, so it will never handle as good as a longer car (except in quick lower-speed maneuvers). Also, I haven't driven it, and by numbers I know it is far slower than my SRT4, but it only has 130hp! So it's amazing it's as fast as it is, no car in its category can really compete with it except the Cooper S.

Would have been nice if you could have got the SS version (with 160 hp). Top Gear seemed to really like the Abarth SS. ;)

[aptera1213]

The US version is supposed to be a bit bigger. But really any rear seat is just bonus for me. My backseat will be folded down 95% of the time.
I view the 500ev as a purely commuter car. Any time you use it for more than getting to and from work and to and from the store is pure bonus for me.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

The US version is supposed to be a bit bigger.
Source for that?

[palmer_md]

Source for that?

here is one.

http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/04/us-fiat-500-bigger-than-european.html

[SlowSRT4]

here is one.

http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/04/us-fiat-500-bigger-than-european.html
Oh, well that's nothing of importance. Just a very minor adjustment due to the new platform and the bumpers are a bit bigger to fit US spec.

But Gavin was implying they made it larger to better accommodate americans in the backseat. But the backseat size does not seem to be changing at all, and the dimensions of the car are virtually identical, just the bumpers are a bit bigger.

[aptera1213]

Actually I said a bit bigger.... :)

I had heard that the 500 coming to the states was based on the 2011 panda platform and that it is a bit bigger than the euro 500. How much bigger? Don't know. Hoping for more info soon.

http://http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-to-get-upgraded-fiat-500.html (http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-to-get-upgraded-fiat-500.html)

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Actually I said a bit bigger.... :)

I had heard that the 500 coming to the states was based on the 2011 panda platform and that it is a bit bigger than the euro 500. How much bigger? Don't know. Hoping for more info soon.

http://http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-to-get-upgraded-fiat-500.html (http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/03/us-to-get-upgraded-fiat-500.html)

Gavin
Palmer just posted a link to those details. The US version is 3 inches longer and 0.71 inches skinnier. The author attributes the change in length only to the bumpers being redesigned for US license plates. So it doesn't appear that the interior dimensions are changing at all. ;)

Also, minor detail, but as far as I'm aware the new 500 will be based on the new Fiat baby car A platform, which the 2011 Panda will also be based on. That is different than the 500 specifically using the Panda platform and ending up having a longer wheelbase as a result, which does not appear to be the case. The Lancia Ypsilon will also use this platform.

[aptera1213]

Palmers link, while similar, is different.

It is all speculation at this point. I know nothing about bigger bumpers, but the bumpers are changed...


This platform upgrade will give the US 500 an advantage over its European cousin.

The chassis on the current Fiat 500 was derived from the Fiat Panda (which dates back to 2003). It was upgraded and refined in 2007 for use in the 500 and has held up very well.


The new, redesigned 2011 Panda will use a further revised version of the current platform and boasts significant improvements in torsional rigidity, strengthened crash structures and improved noise, vibration and harshness (NVH) characteristics.

This has been achieved with the use of even more high strength steel compared to the current 500 platform, reinforcing the side rocker panels, the rear cross member and frame rails.

Additionally, the roof on the US Fiat 500 will be strengthened to better withstand US spec rollover tests and the the reinforced rockers, and side members will help cope with higher speed US rear and side impact type tests.

This revised platform also offers all wheel drive
capability.

Longer wheelbase?

Fiat 500 with 4 inch longer wheelbase

One significant feature of the new Panda platform is the wheelbase will be stretched to 2400mm, up 100mm from the current 2300mm. That leads to speculation that the 500 could also receive the longer wheelbase. However, the reports on the internet state that the US 500 will look identical to the European version.

I would say almost identical because the front bumper and the rear tailgate of the US 500 will be different to accommodate the North American license plate. That change alone cost Fiat $10 million .

With that cost in mind, it doesn't seem likely Fiat will make any changes to the wheelbase of the US 500.

So nobody quite knows, other than Fiat, just how much of a change the US 500 will be from the Euro 500...we just know it will have some changes and it will be a "bit bigger". Just bumper increase, maybe. Maybe not. It will be made in Mexico and it will be based off the Panda 2011 body, it will be stronger, likely a bit heavier and will have modified bumpers to handle US licence plates... that's about all we know so far.

Can't wait to see it...really hope they kick butt and get the EV out at the same time as the gas version (like Ford is doing with the Focus), but that is likely a pipe dream of mine.

As for a bigger back seat...I don't know if it will be any bigger, I guess it would be nice for some if it was but for me I will not be using it for people...groceries, dogs etc...maybe my niece who is five. But any back seat is a nice perk for people starting a family...perfect space for a car seat, a toddler in a booster, even kids in elementary school and such.

Gavin

[aptera1213]

The US front bumper:

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs484.ash1/26490_115041041840026_112623495415114_295826_64913 59_n.jpg




Doesn't look much bigger, if at all, than the Abarth bumper...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7IhKWjDc9wg/Snu0Rvt2XcI/AAAAAAAAA0M/OleE057eVlI/S958-R/Fiat500USA-Fiat+500+Abarth+header.jpg


Dang that Abarth is sexy...the US one isn't bad either...If they offer the Abarth styling in the EV model I will be beating down the door at Chrysler to own one...and I never thought I would do that :) Owning a Fiat sold by Chrysler that runs on electric...I live in bizarro world.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

So nobody quite knows, other than Fiat, just how much of a change the US 500 will be from the Euro 500...we just know it will have some changes and it will be a "bit bigger". Just bumper increase, maybe. Maybe not. It will be made in Mexico and it will be based off the Panda 2011 body, it will be stronger, likely a bit heavier and will have modified bumpers to handle US licence plates... that's about all we know so far.
The new platform is LIGHTER than the previous, despite being much stronger.

[eestorfan]

The last of your comments I basically have to just laugh at. I don't know why you would be trying to make fun of the car because it is associated with Fiat and Chrysler. Fix It Again Tony was used in like the 60's. That's like saying the new Ford Focus EV will suck because Ford stands for "Found On Road Dead".

FORD in the 60's stood for: Fix Or Repair Daily...never heard the "dead" one...LOL :)

[SlowSRT4]

FORD in the 60's stood for: Fix Or Repair Daily...never heard the "dead" one...LOL :)
I feel bad for Fiat and Ford, it is just too easy to make a clever acronym out of either of those names, lol.

Meanwhile, look at Nissan for example, there's simply nothing you can do with that, it is impenetrable. :p

I'll try one just to prove my point:

Negative Insurance Statutory Symbol for Asinine Naturalists (NISSAN)

:evilgrin0013:

[gg222]

FORD in the 60's stood for: Fix Or Repair Daily...never heard the "dead" one...LOL :)

First on Race Day is the one I heard.

[Telchar]

Nissan, it steals spotlight Aptera needs

[SEGsby]

Well, 2010 came and went... Where is this EV? What's the status?

[Adreitz]

SEGsby,

Found this through the Wikipedia page: http://www.italiaspeed.com/2011/cars/fiat/03/500_prima_edizione_us_deliveries/1103.html. It appears that only the gas version was scheduled to start production in 2010. Wikipedia says production on the US EV is starting in 2012.

Aaron

[SlowSRT4]

Well, 2010 came and went... Where is this EV? What's the status?
Status is unchanged. BEV is still on schedule for 2012 launch.

The only recent update on the BEV's development has been a supplier change. A123 is no longer supplying the lithium ion battery cells. That duty is now being handled by SB LiMotive.

By the way, this thread is aimed more at the ICE version (or 500 in general, of which the ICE versions are first and more popular).

For information about the BEV specifically, see this thread:
http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4125

[SlowSRT4]

Also, I wonder if aptera1213 might make a post on here. He recently purchased a Fiat 500 to keep him occupied while he waits for more EVs to hit the market.

[aptera1213]

Hello :)

Yep, bought a gas car :(

But hopefully the last gas car I ever buy...in fact when it was delivered the saleman said: "Oh, you're the guy that will be trading in the 500 when the EV comes out." to which I replied, "Yep"

Anyways...wanted something small and fun for city commuting and the 500 fits that perfectly...Fun to drive...the stick is easy and the car loves to rev hard (feels like I'm driving an enclosed scooter)...I will admit that the one thing I will miss with an electric is the stick...but in the end I want small and fun and no gas (charging the car from my solar roof is my main goal as I like the idea of clean, limitless energy produced naturally...sun, wind, tide all have so many benefits over gas or coal or nuclear).

She is a great little commuter car. She is tons of fun to drive. And she fits my needs perfectly...almost. I mostly commute alone..fine...I take my wife out to dinner a couple of times a week...fine...I go to the gym with my wife and sometimes a daughter or two...still fine, but a bit small in back...ok for short trips though....i went over to paint my daughters spare room and took paint, supplies, etc etc...still fine...i like to go on rides in the mountain twisty roads...hella fine for that :)....so the only issue so far is gas...grrrr....of course I haven't filled her up yet...I have put 225 miles on her over the last 10 days...a lot for me...but I've tried to drive a bit more to break her in...

back on my scooter today...will likely drive the car a week, the scooter a week...once it is summer both will be neglected for my bicycle becomes the daily commuter.

the 500 EV is suppose to come in 2012...probably 2013...I might keep the gas 500 for 2 years...maybe 3...depends on the 500ev and how many they make a year...also on the Volvo C30 EV....I might go Volvo C30 EV...depends on price and such. Either EV would make me very happy.

Gavin

scooter next to 500--covered to look like old 500

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5305/5593632246_f9b0b15053_z.jpg

here she is at home...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5224/5593043401_cffc65d29a_z.jpg

small but surprisingly roomy inside...at least for the front two :)


haven't owned a car in 6 years...really hoped it would be electric...but: the LEAF was taking a bit too long...and really the LEAF wasn't the car I wanted. Bigger than I wanted. Kinda boring looking....yes it will be a great car...yes I hope they sell a ton...but in the end I want a tiny little city car....my next tiny little city car will be electric. To go with the electric motorcycle I'm getting later this year :)

[Grendal]

Gavin!

Congratulations on getting the 500. Looks pretty stylin'. Let us know what kind of mileage you're getting, please.

Good luck.

[SEGsby]

Nice car. :) Have not seen any on the road locally, yet.

[Matthijs]

My sister heard this week that she has the possibility to lease one. And she will get a baby blue twinair version.

http://www.autotrends.nl/images/stories/Fiat-500-TwinAir/Fiat-500-Twinair-01.jpg

I will post some more info when the car will be orded.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Twin-Air version seems to be the best ICE version, in my opinion. The performance (both FE and acceleration) and the sound make it very appealing.

Fiat is making lots of groaning noises about the EV version -- they say it will lose $10K per copy?! Sheesh.

[SlowSRT4]

I would definitely prefer the 85 hp TwinAir to the 1.2L, or even 1.4L (non-MultiAir). But I would rather have the 1.4L MultiAir Turbo (170hp possibly). Not sure which I would prefer between the TwinAir and 1.4L MultiAir (101 hp) because the 1.4 certainly has more power but the TwinAir has a unique sound/feel in addition to the efficiency.

However, the 105 hp TwinAir (on the 500 Zagato) I would prefer over all the other engines except maybe the 1.4L MultiAir Turbo. :)

As far as EVs, it seems like most will lose money initially. Nissan and Chevy have both admitted they are losing money on each Leaf/Volt. Wheego and Myers have high prices for the cars they are selling because they can't afford to lose money (not selling thousands of ICE cars 'on the side').

[Ardie3301]

As much as I like the concept of an electric car, I think I'll have to pass on this one.

Why?
Fiat got out of the US market some 20 years ago, and they didn't do it because they decided they didn't like the currency exchange rate. They did it because US customers stopped buying cars that ran great and were fun to drive for the first 2-3 years, but then parts started falling apart with regularity (and alacrity).
My wife had a new Fiat back in 1980. It *was* a fun to drive car, but almost like an alarm clock went off at 26 months, things started dying. The alternator conked out. The radiator (not the hoses) started leaking. The windshield wiper motor stopped. Dashboard lights died. The timing belt broke. Engine mounts needed replacing, and those are just the problems I can recall thinking about that car from 30 years ago.

Yeah, Fiat may have gotten better since then, but they can prove it by selling cars to somebody else. There are too many other choices that are (or will soon be) available for me to take a chance on a Fiat.

-- Ardie
Stay away from cars with well-used toolkits.

[SlowSRT4]

I fail to see the relevance of comparing a 1980 car to a 2012 car. Also, the EV powertrain is being engineered by Chrysler, for what it's worth. Then again, you probably had a 1954 Chrysler that used to break down all the time. :character0021:

[SEGsby]

As much as I hated that POS car-- I would never use my old 1985 Fox Chassis Mustang T-Top, to completely eliminate Ford Products from present day purchasing decisions.

I would read as many reviews and forums as I could, to get an idea what was going on with their product, well before I plunked down any money on a new vehicle.

The sad thing about Ford's Focus EV Forum, is that no one seems to be putting any effort into it... Then again, there is no product yet. *shrugs*

[aptera1213]

1) I will give some city mileage when I fill up...10 days of driving, about 225 miles of city roads...a couple on the highway, but not much. Riding my scooter this week...will alternate scooter and car for a while till summer bicycle riding takes over.

2) I would have gotten the twin air if possible...love small, high revving engines. the 1.4 is still very nice.

3) Fiat 500 EV...yeah, not loving the lastest comments about pricing...but that can change...take a 15k car, throw in 10k of batteries, a couple of k in other parts and you should have a 30k car...I'm willing to pay double (right now) for an EV over a ICE (like the LEAF...a 16k car with a 32k price), but not 3 times the cost....and I assume that ratio will change as battery tech comes down in price...I'll take a 500ev for LEAF pricing...I'll take a Volvo C30 for Volt pricing...over that and I'll just keep riding my Fiat 500 ICE for a year or two longer than I planned...

No big deal actually as I will have my Electric Motorcycle for daily commuting in fall and spring and some winter...my bicycle for commuting in summer and a rarely driven ICE that still gets 35 city, 45 highway** for dinners out with the wife and really nasty weather in the winter.


Gavin

**my assumptions on my potential gas mileage with the 500 here in Albuquerque...I haven't put enough on to know for sure, but a gentleman bought the only other 500 in New Mexico and then drove it a few hundred miles to Clovis...he got 44 mpg and that was breaking the car in...so that might improve. Car is rated at 30 city, 38 highway, but most people are getting above that...some by a good margin.

[Grendal]

**my assumptions on my potential gas mileage with the 500 here in Albuquerque...I haven't put enough on to know for sure, but a gentleman bought the only other 500 in New Mexico and then drove it a few hundred miles to Clovis...he got 44 mpg and that was breaking the car in...so that might improve. Car is rated at 30 city, 38 highway, but most people are getting above that...some by a good margin.

Sounds pretty impressive, Gavin. I've always found that I tend to get the EPA highway mileage on the cars I drive when driving in the city and 5 to 10 more on the highway. I think the EPA assumes the average driver is a lead foot.

With only 2 500's in New Mexico means you'll be easy to spot. If you ever see some idiot honking and waving in a silver Saturn Ion that will likely be me.

Good luck.

[SlowSRT4]

My wife had a new Fiat back in 1980. It *was* a fun to drive car, but almost like an alarm clock went off at 26 months, things started dying. The alternator conked out. The radiator (not the hoses) started leaking. The windshield wiper motor stopped. Dashboard lights died. The timing belt broke. Engine mounts needed replacing, and those are just the problems I can recall thinking about that car from 30 years ago.

Yeah, Fiat may have gotten better since then, but they can prove it by selling cars to somebody else. There are too many other choices that are (or will soon be) available for me to take a chance on a Fiat.

-- Ardie
Stay away from cars with well-used toolkits.
As for the Fiat 500 proving it is a good car: There are other places in the world besides the USA, where the 500 has been received well and sold for years. Just saying...

But you can watch the Top Gear cheap cars comparison and decide for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6eexAvDGFw&feature=related

They also did a full review on the 500/Abarth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ