An Aptera Outside of California [Archive] - ApteraForum.com

palmer_md

03-25-2008, 05:53 PM

I hope that you out of state buyers are aware that Governor Schwarzenegger is going to just love you. When you purchase the car you are going to help our economy by paying state taxes and fees. Then when you take the car home you will then pay your state taxes and fees if you can even get the car transferred into the state. California and several other states have rules about brining in new cars. For instance I cannot go to Oregon or Nevada and purchase a car to avoid taxes. California has a rule that all cars that are brought into the state from the outside must have 7500 miles. Check your state rules to see if yours has a similar law.

Your California friend is going to have to register the car in their name when they purchase from Aptera. When they do this they will pay about $3000 in fees and taxes. I'm assuming that you are going to pay them back for this when you buy the car from them and take it back home. When you arrive home with the car you will then have to pay taxes and registration fees in your home state.

If it were me I'd just wait til Aptera were selling cars in my state before spending the extra money on the car. Of course we need your money here in California, so feel free to help us out.

Here is an example of car fees from a purchase in San Diego County. Taxes in California vary from 7-9% depending on where you are.

Vehicle Registration Fee Calculator

Transaction Date: March 25, 2008
Type of Calculation: New California Vehicle Purchase

Type of Vehicle: Automobile
Model Year: 2009
Motive Power: Electric

Purchase Date: March 30, 2008
Purchase Price: $30,000.00

County: San Diego
City: El Cajon
Zip Code: 92021

Current Registration: 31.00
Current California Highway Patrol: 10.00
Current Vehicle License Fee: 196.00
Current County Service Authority for Freeway Emergencies Fee: 1.00
Current Fingerprint ID Fee: 1.00
Current Auto Theft and/or DUI Crime Deterrence Program: 1.00
Current Abandoned Vehicle Fee: 1.00
Current Air Quality Management District: 2.00
Use/Sales Tax: 2,325.00
City Vehicle Use/Sales Tax: 150.00
Reflectorized License Plate Fee: 1.00

Total Registration Fees: $244.00

Total Use/Sales Tax: $2,475.00

Grand Total Registration Fees: $2,719.00

See Registration Fees and Smog Abatement/High Polluter Fees for additional information.
This is an estimate based on the information provided. Fees may vary depending on the actual vehicle registration. All fees are subject to statutory change.

MarrInLA

03-25-2008, 06:05 PM

The MAIN reason, as I see it, is cuz there won't be any SERVICING available in other places...they will add that as they expand & grow...that can only be done so fast. Whatta ya gonna do in Alaska if it needs servicing? Fly a service person up there? Guess u'll have tolearn how to do it all urself. Not that they'll need alot but their is maintainance that ought to be done every 6 mos.

palmer_md

03-25-2008, 06:19 PM

I think everyone realizes why Aptera is growing slowly. Those who want to take the cars out of state seem to be comfortable with the maintenance side of things, but I dont think they realized they will be paying a 10% premium for the car to do so.

I just wanted to put this out there so they would be aware of this cost of early adoption.

Michael

KarenRei

03-25-2008, 06:29 PM

DCdreamin

02-10-2009, 12:20 PM

md_palmer: Why do you think "paying taxes" would be a surprise? If course I'm fully aware of that. There are also a number of various EV and low emission vehicle tax incentives, depending on where you live, so I may be taking some charity from your state, too ;). I plan to hire a tax attorney to minimize my tax liability and make sure I get as many tax benefits as possible. Worst case, I pay an extra $3k or so in taxes.

Between maintenance and gasoline, the Aptera will save me ~2k$ a year and let me start taking advantage (assuming it passes) of the $5k federal deduction for EVs and PHEVs, netting me another $2k per year until it expires. It'd be silly to wait several years for Aptera to expand nationwide when I can save that kind of money -- just ignoring the "neat new car" and "helping the environment" aspects.

MarrInLA: What maintenance? Changing tires? Local. Changing brake pads? Local. Changing a drive belt? Local. What sort of mechanic would be afraid to do these things? Certainly not ours. What else is there that would need to be done periodically? Nothing I can think of. So unless there's a car accident or a major component failure that can't be fixed by a local mechanic (within the first several years only), I'd have no need to go to California. And if there was such a big-ticket item, the cost of shipping the Aptera there and back ($2k) wouldn't be as big in comparison to the cost of the repairs. Plus, I couldn't complain too much about having to spend some time in SoCal. ;)

Right, KarenRei, I'm with you.

Another option is to not transfer ownership and to drive back to Cali every year or two (I can't remember how long it is) to get SMOG and Inspection completed. If you have a friend in CA, have them be the owner, you can pay them for the car and insurance (have you listed as the primary driver, and that it's driven out of state.) I'm not 100% on all of this, but I thought I'd propose it.

I think folks in our boat really do appreciate all the reasons that Aptera is only selling to CA residents. There are a certain % of folks who live outside CA, who want the Aptera, and are willing to jump through the requisite hoops to make it happen. Consider me tentatively in that group, I think more discussion about strategy is warranted.

evmavin

02-10-2009, 12:47 PM

md_palmer: Why do you think "paying taxes" would be a surprise? If course I'm fully aware of that. There are also a number of various EV and low emission vehicle tax incentives, depending on where you live, so I may be taking some charity from your state, too ;). I plan to hire a tax attorney to minimize my tax liability and make sure I get as many tax benefits as possible. Worst case, I pay an extra $3k or so in taxes.

Between maintenance and gasoline, the Aptera will save me ~2k$ a year and let me start taking advantage (assuming it passes) of the $5k federal deduction for EVs and PHEVs, netting me another $2k per year until it expires. It'd be silly to wait several years for Aptera to expand nationwide when I can save that kind of money -- just ignoring the "neat new car" and "helping the environment" aspects.

MarrInLA: What maintenance? Changing tires? Local. Changing brake pads? Local. Changing a drive belt? Local. What sort of mechanic would be afraid to do these things? Certainly not ours. What else is there that would need to be done periodically? Nothing I can think of. So unless there's a car accident or a major component failure that can't be fixed by a local mechanic (within the first several years only), I'd have no need to go to California. And if there was such a big-ticket item, the cost of shipping the Aptera there and back ($2k) wouldn't be as big in comparison to the cost of the repairs. Plus, I couldn't complain too much about having to spend some time in SoCal. ;)

I would expect the 2e to have initial issues, some minor some not, as well as possible fixes. If a module goes out on the pack or other pack related item it should not be serviced by a mechanic, they are not trained for this nor would Aptera likely send the parts do to liability. A 300V pack it not something one should touch unless you are trained professionally. Etc, etc. If I lived out of state I would wait for Aptera to become more stable and proven on reliability.

evmavin

02-10-2009, 12:52 PM

Right, KarenRei, I'm with you.

Another option is to not transfer ownership and to drive back to Cali every year or two (I can't remember how long it is) to get SMOG and Inspection completed. If you have a friend in CA, have them be the owner, you can pay them for the car and insurance (have you listed as the primary driver, and that it's driven out of state.) I'm not 100% on all of this, but I thought I'd propose it.

I think folks in our boat really do appreciate all the reasons that Aptera is only selling to CA residents. There are a certain % of folks who live outside CA, who want the Aptera, and are willing to jump through the requisite hoops to make it happen. Consider me tentatively in that group, I think more discussion about strategy is warranted.

And if you are in an accident the other party can sue all registered owners, there are liability issues here. Also the insurance company can deny your claim if they found out- they love to do that.

DCdreamin

02-10-2009, 12:57 PM

And if you are in an accident the other party can sue all registered owners, there are liability issues here. Also the insurance company can deny your claim if they found out- they love to do that.

What I'm saying is that you'd be on the insurance as the primary driver. They'd have no reason to deny your claim because the IC would know everything that's going on with the car. For example, when I was younger a friend of the family owned a car and put me as the primary driver so that I could borrow it for 6 months.

As far as liability goes, you very well may be correct. I don't know how liability works in that situation. Can somebody sue me if somebody steals my car and gets in an accident? I don't know.

NmGfan

02-10-2009, 02:47 PM

MarrInLA: What maintenance? Changing tires? Local. Changing brake pads? Local. Changing a drive belt? Local. What sort of mechanic would be afraid to do these things? Certainly not ours. What else is there that would need to be done periodically? Nothing I can think of. So unless there's a car accident or a major component failure that can't be fixed by a local mechanic (within the first several years only), I'd have no need to go to California. And if there was such a big-ticket item, the cost of shipping the Aptera there and back ($2k) wouldn't be as big in comparison to the cost of the repairs. Plus, I couldn't complain too much about having to spend some time in SoCal. ;)

Whoa there Karen. I have found that 3-wheels changes the local service situation pretty significantly. I called about six places before I found one that would even entertain a look at a three wheeler (Wheel Works). Anything to do with wheels, brakes, suspension, wheel bearings, etc. will require an open minded tire/wheel shop that handles custom vehicles. Why you might ask? Because none of their conventional lift equipment will work with three wheeled vehicles, nor will regular hydraulic floor jacks be able to lift on the nice fiberglass rounded (or in my case, too low) body. I had to provide the odd materials (pilot test the lift method at home first, supply wood blocks & soft pads) and supervise the first lift so the shop could comfortably perform a wheel bearing replacement and subsequent front-end alignment. Other simple mechanical stuff like a drive belt are easy enough to do at home, but the Aptera FWD is a little more complicated than most folks would want to break into, so that might be more complicated to find someone locally that isn't afraid of EV's unknowns (first answer is usually no). As far as accidents go, that'll probably be home repair/replacement of modular components unless one can find a body shop with fiberglass repair/painting skills (found one, a Corvette specialty shop, pricey though). Finally, vehicle transit costs shot up last year by 50%. My EV shipped from Ohio in May 2007 cost just under $1K one way; same vehicle in May '08 cost just under $1.5K.
I'd take some of those kewl pics posted here to your mechanic and ask him how he would approach working on an Aptera related problem like you mentioned. The further one is from the "mother ship", the more independently capable or resourceful one has to be.
:happy0025:

KarenRei

02-10-2009, 03:02 PM

Well, this is a really old post that's being responded to (check the date), but we can pick this topic back up if you'd like :)

I called about six places before I found one that would even entertain a look at a three wheeler (Wheel Works). Anything to do with wheels, brakes, suspension, wheel bearings, etc. will require an open minded tire/wheel shop that handles custom vehicles.

I don't go to a shop for service. My vehicle service is split between my spouse Elaine, and Alfonso, a guy we know who is about as close to a literal "shade tree mechanic" as you'll find (he does work in a shop, but he does work on his own on the side so he can earn more from it). He's great; he's even taught Elaine how to fix a number of things she didn't know how to, and I know someone who he replaced an entire engine for. We never get cheated on parts because they all come from a local auto parts store, w/receipt (he even lets us get them in advance if we want to save him time, or go with him), he doesn't charge much for labor (as he gets 100% of what we pay him), etc. He'll take on any sort of vehicle work that comes his way; if it's too big for him alone, he brings a friend or lets the owners help out if they want to.

As far as accidents go, that'll probably be home repair/replacement of modular components unless one can find a body shop with fiberglass repair/painting skills

Elaine once helped build a solar car and did some work when growing up at the place where her parents built fiberglass hovercraft. She helped build the family's hovercraft when she was little (plywood core, not foam core, but still...). She knows half the people who still work at Neoteric ;) When the subject of fixing broken panels the Aptera came up in front of her mother, she laughed and said that's easy, she could do it. It's funny hearing that from a little old 7th(ish) generation quilter. ;)

Finally, vehicle transit costs shot up last year by 50%. My EV shipped from Ohio in May 2007 cost just under $1K one way; same vehicle in May '08 cost just under $1.5K.

My estimate for IA was $1k (not as far as OH). But I'm not shipping it unless it breaks badly enough that there's nothing I can do up here (i.e., pack failure, or something like that).

NmGfan

02-10-2009, 05:01 PM

Well, this is a really old post that's being responded to (check the date), but we can pick this topic back up if you'd like :)
I don't go to a shop for service. ... ...He'll take on any sort of vehicle work that comes his way; if it's too big for him alone, he brings a friend or lets the owners help out if they want to.
Elaine once helped build a solar car and did some work when growing up at the place where her parents built fiberglass hovercraft. ... ...When the subject of fixing broken panels the Aptera came up in front of her mother, she laughed and said that's easy, she could do it. It's funny hearing that from a little old 7th(ish) generation quilter. ;)

Sorry for digging through old posts, but as things get closer to reality for Aptera fans I thought refreshing the service and maintenance thread with some experiences would be useful. Cool for you to have a fiberglass experienced spouse (and mother-in-law!) and know a local willing "shade-tree"!
In-house maintenance is likely to be what the majority of folks will have to do when far from an authorized service center. For those that aren't skilled enough or need maintenance that they may not have tools for, knowing what and where to ask for help will be important. As I mentioned, saying it's a 3-wheel anything does not help open doors, even for seemingly common work like brake pad replacement. The car guys will tell you its a motorcycle and the motorcycle guys will tell you its a car, and neither can help. I expect everyone to have this first encounter when needing new tires, typically not something done at home. My suggestion to all is this; look for the local (automotive type) repair shop early in the life of ownership, before needing help is urgent. Have your favorite shop/service provider take a look at the new vehicle and have the "cold feet" experience before you need their help. If they choke on doing anything, no worries, keep looking.
:happy0025:

evmavin

02-10-2009, 05:07 PM

Sorry for digging through old posts, but as things get closer to reality for Aptera fans I thought refreshing the service and maintenance thread with some experiences would be useful. Cool for you to have a fiberglass experienced spouse (and mother-in-law!) and know a local willing "shade-tree"!
In-house maintenance is likely to be what the majority of folks will have to do when far from an authorized service center. For those that aren't skilled enough or need maintenance that they may not have tools for, knowing what and where to ask for help will be important. As I mentioned, saying it's a 3-wheel anything does not help open doors, even for seemingly common work like brake pad replacement. The car guys will tell you its a motorcycle and the motorcycle guys will tell you its a car, and neither can help. I expect everyone to have this first encounter when needing new tires, typically not something done at home. My suggestion to all is this; look for the local (automotive type) repair shop early in the life of ownership, before needing help is urgent. Have your favorite shop/service provider take a look at the new vehicle and have the "cold feet" experience before you need their help. If they choke on doing anything, no worries, keep looking.
:happy0025:

This is all so true and reality will hit those who over simplify such things. I don't see a pert-time mechanic doing an alignment, fixing a pack, contactor, etc.

KarenRei

02-10-2009, 05:18 PM

This is all so true and reality will hit those who over simplify such things. I don't see a pert-time mechanic doing an alignment, fixing a pack, contactor, etc.

He's a full time mechanic, *plus* time on his own. Call him a "time and a half" mechanic. ;) We've never asked him to do an alignment, but I don't doubt he would; as I mentioned, he's replaced an entire engine for a friend.

I wouldn't ask him to fix a pack, though. I'd ship the car back to Aptera if the pack had troubles.

evmavin

02-10-2009, 05:27 PM

He's a full time mechanic, *plus* time on his own. Call him a "time and a half" mechanic. ;) We've never asked him to do an alignment, but I don't doubt he would; as I mentioned, he's replaced an entire engine for a friend.

Most people don't have access to someone who will bend the rules or have alignment rigs.

I wouldn't ask him to fix a pack, though. I'd ship the car back to Aptera if the pack had troubles.

My point exactly- not to mention the rest of the electronics.

G.M.

02-10-2009, 05:32 PM

Well, if I take mine back to New Mexico I have a couple of fairly good places for help.

One, I work at the University Hospital/University of New Mexico. We actually have a car maintenance facility and actually have a number of electric vehicles. So they are use to working on small electric "cars".

Two, I'm sure the Engineering dept would love to work on my Aptera anytime I wanted. Not sure I want them messing around though unless I need it.

Ha, and third, my scooter mechanic loves to take everything apart. Now you may not think it wise to have a scooter mechanic working on an Aptera, but if you work on vintage and modern scooters, you have worked on all kind of systems.

G.M.

IamIan

02-10-2009, 05:57 PM

If you look into the local EV conversion groups in your area... you might find some very nice people who are very knowledgeable and very able to help you with 90% of any battery problems you might have...

There are such EV groups all over the country.

Befriending an Electrical Engineering Professor at a local university might also be a nice in... for possible future repairs.

OC-LA driver

02-10-2009, 06:02 PM

I'm hoping my buddy with the VW shop can do the routine tires etc. for me. If Aptera charges too much for the anythign else I'll just put out a call on the forum, buy a case of beer, and let you all come by and fix it for me :) I'm one of the car-as-appliance consumers who will rarely raise the hood and wishes there were a longer warranty...but who also takes comfort in the simplicity of all-electric vs ICE or hybrid drivetrains.

Y'all know so much about newton-joules etc. I feel like Marty McFly next to Doc Brown in Back to the Future

NmGfan

02-10-2009, 06:51 PM

Well, if I take mine back to New Mexico I have a couple of fairly good places for help.
G.M.
It's all good until it's time for one or more wheels off the ground. That's when all the fun questions like "where are the lift points?" and "where does your tire jack go?" and "we can't align that, how do we support/square-up the rear wheel?" enter the picture. Everyone's favorite at the shop that I finally found was "how far up can we go balancing it on that one rear tire?". The next question I have is "how are we gonna jack that thing up high enough to change a rear tire?", since there are no obvious lift points or exposed frame rails. Even the intrepid pioneers have their limits, so at least go looking for a good tire/wheel shop before you need one.

:happy0025:

Holz

04-08-2009, 09:29 PM

I'm not sure if this is the best thread for this, and my apologies if not. I am interested in out of state registration, but am concerned about the Bureau/Dept of Motor Vehicles requirements in individual states. I know Aptera plans to look at national registration requirements after California, but individual states have their own requirements, and perhaps unfortunately are moving ahead now in passing new laws. Below is a response from Motor Vehicle people in the state of Maine on how registering an Aptera would have to be treated. And they are moving ahead now in what may result in rather a restrictive registration that would limit speed, types of road, etc. that the Aptera could be driven on.
Anyone with experience or more knowledge on this sort of issue?
------------------------------
BMV response to my query on how to register Aptera in Maine:
"I agree that the specifications seem to indicate that the Aptera will meet safety standards and inspection requirements. In terms of the limitation to 45MPH roads, the legislation doesn't have a provision for a variance of this highway safety condition.

With this said, let me try to explain the rational for creating another class of vehicle. As you know, the BMV registers and titles automobiles; 4-wheel vehicles that travel at the higher rates of speed. Under Maine law, an automobile means, "a motor vehicle designed for the conveyance of passengers that has a seating capacity of not more than 15
passengers."

www mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/29-A/title29-Asec101.html

BMV also registers and titles low-speed vehicles that can travel on a road or street where the posted speed limit is 35MPH or less. A low-speed vehicle (LSV) means "a 4-wheeled automobile that is able to attain a speed of at least 20 miles per hour but not more than 25 miles per hour and does not exceed 1,800 (soon to be 3,000) pounds in unloaded
weight. A low-speed vehicle must be originally manufactured and maintained in accordance with the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards." The LSV law can be found at the same website as the automobile definition.

The autocycle is an alternative type 3-wheel vehicle that is designed to travel at intermediate speeds that are lower than an automobile, but higher than a low-speed vehicle. The reason these alternative vehicles are built with 3 wheels is to avoid federal automobile highway safety requirements.

I know you are asking about a variance to the restriction to 45MPH roads and limited use for distance travel, but there is no provision in the legislation for any kind of variance. However, I hope this provides you with at least an answer and gives you some sense for the rational behind the autocycle legislation.

A study of alternative vehicles, including autocycles, will be undertaken in the upcoming months. The study results (recommendations) will be reported back to the legislature's Transportation Committee. Hopefully, this initiative will give interested people an opportunity to provide feedback about changes in the law they would like to see.

Please call or email me with your thoughts, questions, or concerns.

Regards,"

jstdadd

04-08-2009, 11:35 PM

I would send the guy some of the good videos.

hill

04-09-2009, 12:27 PM

I hope that you out of state buyers are aware that Governor Schwarzenegger is going to just love you. When you purchase the car you are going to help our economy by paying state taxes and fees. Then when you take the car home you will then pay your state taxes and fees if you can even get the car transferred into the state. California and several other states have rules about brining in new cars.
. . . . . . . . . snip

Yes, you 'may' end up being taxed by multiple states, but to clarify, you won't be paying double tax, which is what it sounds like you're saying. Sure ... if a state only charges 3% sales tax, and you take a car to a state that charges 7% sales tax ... the higher taxed state can collect the remaining 4%. Or in MT for example ... we have NO sales tax ... so CA would get the entire 7% (or whatever it is) for their self. Maybe that's what you meant.
Plus, the statement, " . . . states have rules about brin[g]ing in new cars" is kind of vauge ... sounding as though one can't take a car / motorcycle that's legally licensed in another state, & register it in another state. ALL states regulate vehicle licensing ... so my point is you need to sort of shore-up the vaugeness as to what you're meaning is. Do you mean states regulate (for example) whether a NEV can go 25mph versus 35mph? or what. Perhaps a code or case citation would flesh out your point. We have autos licensed in multiple states, so we have personal experience ... and of course, there's high school civics class (many decades ago, in my case :( ) ... where we all learned about the commerce clause (article 1, section 8 of the U.S. constitution) whereby no state can unnecessarily impinge on commerce between one state and another.

jstdadd

04-09-2009, 12:33 PM

The Aptera is manufactured in California and has a motorcycle VIN. You should be able to register it in any state as a motorcycle. The title should say motorcycle.

Helmet laws, wearing bright orange vests on military bases and that kind of thing are local control issues. You should not have speed restrictions.

You might write family@aptera.com and ask them if they have contacted DMV in the various states, or what a title will look like.

Pegasus

04-14-2009, 07:25 PM

That's really the only option right now, so if you want one before they go on sale nationwide (who knows how long that will be), that's your only choice. And it's what I'm doing, by the way ;)

I have to ask you, Karen, why you're so forthcoming with this information? I'd keep this sort of thing on the DL if it were me.

KarenRei

04-14-2009, 07:30 PM

I'm being helpful :)

We all know that Aptera employees read the forum, so it's no secret to them. I never mention my number, however, just in case any of them would see fit to cancel on me. All I'll say is that it's in the 300 to 400 range.

garygid

04-14-2009, 11:19 PM

I know somebody who will have a 2e for sale after having it for several months.
The same will likely be true for a 2h, I suspect.

And, it is said that "the one with the gold makes the rules" (the "golden" rule).

Would one suspect that as many as 5% (or ???) of the delivered vehicles will change owners within a year of delivery?

Gena

04-14-2009, 11:28 PM

well... like i said in another post... i know that people were "selling" the first few positions in line for an iPhone for $500.... so yeah - a car??? probably a better return!

jstdadd

04-16-2009, 12:48 AM

well... like i said in another post... i know that people were "selling" the first few positions in line for an iPhone for $500.... so yeah - a car??? probably a better return!

You owe the pizza fund at Aptera $1.00. You called the Aptera a 'car'.

Holz

04-16-2009, 12:25 PM

Perhaps the Forum will also have to tax some of the other states for Pizza funds too.
The response below is from the Maine Bureau of Motor Vehicles (BMV) and I suspect that other state's DMVs may have similar issues. This is a follow-up from my previous post in this thread, but any suggestions on how to deal with this would be appreciated. This could be big issue for Aptera if they plan on expanding out beyond California and I would be interested in seeing responses from other state DMVs on this issue.
-------------------------------
Response from Maine BMV:

Dear ,

I talked with the Director about your..................

Apparently, California's motor vehicle laws governing vehicle definitions and speed restrictions are different than similar laws in Maine. Under the laws of this state, the Aptera vehicle is not consider a motorcycle. The Aptera seems to fit the definition and intended purpose of the pending autocycle legislation. Unlike a motorcycle, the autocycle vehicle is designed with an enclosed cab, 3-wheels, seat belts, and steering wheel.

The fact that the Aptera is manufactured in California and has a motorcycle VIN does not conflict with the way VIN verification is handled in Maine.

The manufacturer's statement that, "you should be able to register it in any state as a motorcycle" is inaccurate. The statement implies that motor vehicle registration and title laws are the same in every state which is not true. The statement sounds like a sales or marketing strategy which is not uncommon.

A Maine title for an Aptera vehicle would not say motorcycle. We don't brand our title by vehicle type or design. We brand titles according to vehicle condition (i.e. repaired, rebuilt, reconstructed, salvage, water damage, etc.).

The autocycle is an alternative type 3-wheel vehicle that is designed to travel at intermediate speeds that are lower than an automobile, but higher than a low-speed vehicle. The Aptera, if registered as an autocycle, would be restricted for use on roads or streets with a posted speed limit of 45MPH or less. Consistent with legislative intent, an autocycle would be operated on roads where traffic normally flows at intermediate speeds.

Regards,

Sr. Section Manager
Vehicle Services Division

jstdadd

04-16-2009, 12:37 PM

The autocycle is an alternative type 3-wheel vehicle that is designed to travel at intermediate speeds that are lower than an automobile, but higher than a low-speed vehicle. The Aptera, if registered as an autocycle, would be restricted for use on roads or streets with a posted speed limit of 45MPH or less. Consistent with legislative intent, an autocycle would be operated on roads where traffic normally flows at intermediate speeds.

Regards,

Sr. Section Manager
Vehicle Services Division

Since when is the Aptera 'designed to travel at intermediate speeds that are lower than an automobile'...?

I think that the Sr. Section Manager might want to read an Aptera brochure.

KarenRei

04-16-2009, 01:57 PM

Yeah, I think a followup is warranted.

KarenRei

04-16-2009, 02:06 PM

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=5&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mainelegislature.org%2Flegis% 2Fbills%2Fbills_124th%2Fbillpdfs%2FHP013101.pdf&ei=r3HnSeyHJZzjnQeX-NGhBw&usg=AFQjCNEpGARGurKL3d-aBykwz8EYlHmtIw&sig2=mVIwYqALZ3XxrolRHEzwfg

Sec. 1. 29-A MRSA $101, $sub-6-A is enacted to read:

6-A. Autocycle. "Autocycle" means an enclosed motorcycle having no more than 3 wheels in contact with the ground and that:

A. Meets the general motorcycle inspection standards, except those standards that do not apply due to the design of the vehicle; and

B. Is equipped with:
(1) Safety belts for all passengers;
(2) A roll bar;
(3) A steering wheel or tiller; and
(4) Brakes on at least 2 main wheels

If it meets that definition, it's an autocycle. And then it falls under the "Road Restrictions" section, which prohibits driving it on a road with a speed limit higher than 45mph.

Oh, and you need a motorcycle endorsement, kids under 15 years old have to wear a helmet

So... better hope that the Aptera 2e doesn't have anything that counts as a roll bar! Either that, or rip out your seatbelts, brakes, or change the steering wheel to something other than a wheel or tiller ;)

Start writing your state representatives and your transportation department.

randyd

04-16-2009, 08:51 PM

So... better hope that the Aptera 2e doesn't have anything that counts as a roll bar! Either that, or rip out your seatbelts, brakes, or change the steering wheel to something other than a wheel or tiller ;)

Sheesh! If it doesn't have a roll bar, will it be classified as a NEV and only allowed to drive 35? Or will it be classified as a three-wheel all-terrain vehicle and not in need of registration, and not allowed on streets at all?

Let me paraphrase karenRei: "Make your vehicle less safe so we will allow you to drive it faster."

Of course, if you do take out the seatbelts, the Motor Vehicle Department will then deny you a registration because your vehicle is no longer configured "as manufactured" and is therefore unsafe.

Thankfully, there's time for lots of lobbying and educating.

KarenRei

04-17-2009, 01:39 AM

Sheesh! If it doesn't have a roll bar, will it be classified as a NEV and only allowed to drive 35? Or will it be classified as a three-wheel all-terrain vehicle and not in need of registration, and not allowed on streets at all?

Neither. If it doesn't have a roll bar, it'll be considered a motorcycle, and thus unlimited. Yes, it's completely ridiculous. Welcome to the wild world of American vehicle regulations. :P

Holz

04-17-2009, 09:13 AM

Since when is the Aptera 'designed to travel at intermediate speeds that are lower than an automobile'...?

I think that the Sr. Section Manager might want to read an Aptera brochure.

Yeah, I hear you....My questions to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles (BMV) was a follow up though, and they seem pretty insistent. And since they are the "law of the land" at least in that state, and it doesn't look like they plan on budging, this will be a problem in that State. If others would like to explore the same issues with the Dept of Motor Vehicles in other states, that would be helpful to see if they are coming up with similar rulings. Maine could be an anomaly, but I doubt it! As mentioned before, the problem is that the states are trying to jump out ahead before Aptera and other vehicles are even on the road, and that is creating problems with conflict between what the manufacturer and the public want, and what the states are going to dictate. So, I am pursuing individual action on this, but going at it state by state is going to be a long hard road.

Another question that I am posing to the BMV is, if the Aptera is registered in California as a motorcycle and drives across state lines on the highway to a state that classifies it as something else, what are they going to do? Are they going to have Apteras registered in one state that are only allowed to travel 45MPH whereas the same Aptera registered in California, but driving out of state, can travel 65MPH?

Ardie3301

04-17-2009, 03:03 PM

Well,

(Not a lawyer, and worth only the electrons its written with)
If you have a vehicle registered in state-A, and it crosses a state line into state-B, it does not immediately become illegal. State-B has to recognize that the state-A license was granted based upon state-A's rules.

Say I drive my California car to Texas. Texas cannot immediately impound my car just because I don't have an Texas annual vehicle inspection sticker.

Say I drive my Aptera to Maine. Maine cannot immediately impound my ca., er, vehicle because its a California vehicle, not a Maine vehicle.

Of course, once I re-register the Aptera from California to Maine, all bets are off.

-- Ardie
Oh. Commercial vehicles have a pile of additional state and federal rules that they must obey. I believe that I cannot drive a big rig through Louisiana without buying gas / diesel there at least once.

Holz

04-19-2009, 11:26 PM

Looks like several states have been enacting "autocycle" classifications that will likely restrict use/speed of three-wheeled vehicles and the article suggests the Motorcycle Riders Association is trying to promote those restrictions. Any reason why that would be? http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/18/editorial-why-make-three-wheeled-vehicles-are-they-legal-shou/

Quoted from the article:
"The federal government is aware of the issue of three wheeled enclosed vehicles and the fact that they are titled and licensed as motorcycles as is legal under current law. The Motorcycle Riders Foundation has asked the Federal Department of Transportation Secretary Mary Peters to create a new class of vehicle that is seperate from motorcycles for these "autocycles" in a July 1st meeting in DC. Three wheeled enclosed vehicles (even if enclosed with a simply a rollcage) are for all practical purposes a car that is allowed to skate around the rigorous federal safety standards that all autos built for use in the USA must meet. These autocycles are meant to perform as a car, yet do not have to meet any of the hundreds of Federal Motor Vehicle Safey Standards (FMVSS). We must be careful to not unwittingly create hardships for trike and sidecar setups or even vehicles like the new Piaggio MP3. For the safety of the future owners of enclosed autocycles, these vehicles must be put into their own class of road worthy vehicles and not just be considered another motorcycle."

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/01/massachusetts-revokes-zap-xebra-registrations/

tonyb34

04-20-2009, 03:11 PM

Is this whole issue just because it has 3 wheels?

Electric cars have had trouble since the very beginning. They were popular back in the day but I think a couple accidents happened and they were really downplayed to the gas engines.

A similar thing happened with Bucky Fuller's revolutionary 3-wheeled car Dymaxion when it had a fatal crash.

it seems that when things are revolutionary all it takes is one accident to discredit the entire concept

AZDDF.PK

04-20-2009, 08:00 PM

Aptera has stated that they will follow Toyota's model of introducing vehicles in California, Texas, Florida, then New York. Has anyone heard when their vehicles will be available in Arizona?

Holz

04-22-2009, 03:29 PM

Just got a reply from the BMV in Maine: Their take on the "Autocycle" Act is that, if an Aptera (or other vehicles that Maine and three other states would classify as Autocycles) crosses the border into the State of Maine, then it is subject to the rules of the road in the state. The example the Sr. Section Manager of the BMV gave, may not have been a good one, but he said the situation would be similar to someone with a learners permit trying to drive out of state.

I asked him if an Aptera registered as a motorcycle in another state, driving across the border into Maine, would be impounded. He said it would depend on the arresting officer, and that it could range from getting a ticket to impounding the vehicle.

So, for those with interests in traveling through states like Maine, Ohio, Massachusetts and Kentucky...all of which now apparently have "Autocycle" Bills in process, this will be a problem unless local folks in those states (or perhaps better, a consortium of lawyers from EV companies) can work through an amendment to the Laws/Acts in process. The the Federal Dept of Transportation is now involved, it seems likely that more states will follow this route. Does anyone have news on other states that are developing rulings on this? It would be good for people to start getting involved early on if possible in moving the language for the bills in the right direction. (Yes...golf carts should be restricted, but...)

Karen said the our vehicle regulations are completely ridiculous, which may be a mild assessment. I think it can be argued that a motorcycle with no enclosure, seat belts or air bags would be less safe than an Aptera. Yet motorcycles have no restrictions and the Aptera would be restricted to 45MPH road under the Autocycle classification. Let's see...the Motorcycle Riders Foundation asked the Secretary of the Federal Dept of Transportation to class these safer vehicles separately from motorcycles because "We must be careful to not unwittingly create hardships for trike and sidecar setups...." It seems like some overly protective politics is going to have to be worked through with the motorcycle riders group.

KarenRei

04-22-2009, 04:15 PM

Write your representatives and DOT.

I just hand-delivered a pamphlet to my senator last Saturday listing parts of the code that could be problematic for EVs, the Aptera, or other efficient vehicles, ranging from requiring all vehicles to have a muffler to requiring that motorcycle riders straddle the seat to forbidding the engine from being disconnected from the drivetrain while the vehicle os moving (without an exception for vehicles like the 1L car that *automatically* do that). He was the keynote speaker at a green expo that kicked off Earth Week here in IC.

Keep at it.

Should we also lobby the Motorcycle Riders' Foundation, since they seem to be the impetus for these bills?

Gena

04-22-2009, 04:42 PM

what a PITA!

i "love" the backasswardness of it.

Gena

04-22-2009, 05:54 PM

ooooo!!! it's earth day! start a facebook group, forum, or something to bring attn to it!!!

(i'm not going to start it, but i'll join if someone else does... matthijs???)

NmGfan

04-22-2009, 07:06 PM

.... So, for those with interests in traveling through states like Maine, Ohio, Massachusetts and Kentucky...all of which now apparently have "Autocycle" Bills in process, this will be a problem unless local folks in those states (or perhaps better, a consortium of lawyers from EV companies) can work through an amendment to the Laws/Acts in process.

Ohio, home to Myers Motors (NmG manufacturer), just repealed their silly law requiring helmets to be worn when driving an enclosed motorcycle. This requirement was brought to the attention of the Ohio BMV by Myers Motors who successfully lobbied to have it changed last year. Now it seems someone else is lobbying to have an even stricter set of limitations enforced on enclosed three wheelers. It would be a sorry state of affairs if the two-wheel motorcycle advocates are behind the notion that somehow fully enclosed three-wheelers are less safe than a two wheeler and should be restricted to low speed. The burden of proof is on them and I hope they see the light before they demonstrate their ignorance. And yes, I've been riding two wheel motorcycles for 36 years on the street; just add water, they are not as safe.
:happy0025:

Holz

04-22-2009, 07:22 PM

It would be a sorry state of affairs if the two-wheel motorcycle advocates are behind the notion that somehow fully enclosed three-wheelers are less safe than a two wheeler and should be restricted to low speed. The burden of proof is on them and I hope they see the light before they demonstrate their ignorance. And yes, I've been riding two wheel motorcycles for 36 years on the street; just add water, they are not as safe.
:happy0025:

The link to that "sorry state of affairs" is here http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/18/editorial-why-make-three-wheeled-vehicles-are-they-legal-shou/print/
scroll down

Holz

04-22-2009, 07:27 PM

Write your representatives and DOT.
Should we also lobby the Motorcycle Riders' Foundation, since they seem to be the impetus for these bills?

I am not sure how one lobbies a lobbyist group, but am open to suggestion.

Getting the facts out to Legislators as you suggest seems like the best way to combat this and I have some efforts in process. It will take more than one or two doing this though.

KarenRei

04-23-2009, 03:17 PM

For all of you Iowa Aptera proxy reservers out there (I know I'm not the only one! ;) ): I just got this back from the DoT, so this should be the official word on the subject:

Karen,

You are correct, this vehicle does qualify as a Motorcycle in the State of Iowa. All laws and rules shall apply as any other Motorcycle driven in Iowa.

If you have a Motorcycle endorsement on your Iowa D.L. the operation of this MC will be okay. If however you go to the Drivers License Station with this vehicle for testing, the course is changed to meet the turning radius for this type MC. The resulting Drivers License issued will have a restriction on the D.L. allowing you to only operate a 3 wheeled MC, not a 2 wheeled MC. I hope this answers your questions. If I can help further please let me know.

Now, of course, there's always the question of how to bring it to the DMV -- I don't think they'd look kindly on me driving up in it to get my license so I can drive it ;) Guess I'll need to find someone with a motorcycle license. Or a flatbed.

JimmyDreams

04-23-2009, 04:04 PM

Now, of course, there's always the question of how to bring it to the DMV -- I don't think they'd look kindly on me driving up in it to get my license so I can drive it ;) Guess I'll need to find someone with a motorcycle license. Or a flatbed.

Usually, there's a learners permit you can get by just filling out the form. That should allow for limited use before real licensing....i.e.; allowing you to drive it to the DMV to get your real license.

John Mammoth

04-23-2009, 04:20 PM

Thank you for using the Department of State's web site.

Under the Michigan Vehicle Code, MCL 257.31, "motorcycle" is defined as a motor vehicle having a saddle or seat for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, but excluding a tractor. If it meets this criteria, then it would be considered a motorcycle, of course.

If it doesn't, to see if it meets the requirement of a motor vehicle in Michigan, you will have to have the vehicle inspected by the police and give you a TR-54 form to bring with your title when you come to title and register this in Michigan. Be sure to bring your proof of Michigan insurance also.

If you have other questions, feel free to contact us at 888 SOSMICH (888-767-6424).

Sincerely,

A. Seegraves, Departmental Technician
Department of State Information Center

Holz

04-23-2009, 05:51 PM

KarenRei

04-23-2009, 05:57 PM

Sounds like you may be good in both Iowa and Michigan. The "Autocycle" designation effectively blocks transit through states, and having major highways going through two key Autocycle states of Ohio and Kentucky will make it tough for travel into the northeast US. Getting further into New England with most major routes going through Massachusetts (another Autocycle state) will make it even tougher. (Hmmm...I wonder what Canadian Provincial rules are for the Aptera?)

Do provinces have their own vehicle laws? AFAIK, Canada defines any three wheeler as a motorcycle, and they can go where cars can. So, if you want to get past Ohio... cut through Canada. Heck, depending on where you're going from and to, it can be shorter.

Technically, you could go through Ohio and Kentucky just so long as you slowed down and didn't take the interstates -- and you'd get more range per charge that way. I'm not sure if one should, though -- should they be punished by not getting the business of Aptera owners who need to pass through, or would it be good to pass through and talk to the people that you meet about the state's problematic laws?

These restrictions may be one of the reasons Aptera is citing in Texas and Florida next.

Well, also, lots of smaller states take their cues on transportation laws from the bigger states. Get established there and it makes it a lot easier to roll into the smaller ones.

John Mammoth

04-23-2009, 07:41 PM

I don't think it will be a problem to get around the country at all, even on interstates. The police may pull you over but only to get a better look at that strange craft cruising down the road. Except in the case where you just don't have your Aptera registered at all. They may have a problem with that. As its such a new piece of transportation technology I doubt they would throw the book at you. At most a suggestion that one should take it into the local DMV/Secretary of State/Police office to get it properly registered. Or, so I hope!!

Holz

04-23-2009, 08:16 PM

As its such a new piece of transportation technology I doubt they would throw the book at you. At most a suggestion that one should take it into the local DMV/Secretary of State/Police office to get it properly registered. Or, so I hope!!

J. Mammoth, please read further back in this thread. There are laws being passed now in 4 states that classify that Aptera as an "Autocycle". The language of the Act in at least one of the states (Maine) restricts the use of these vehicles to 45MPH roads. And yes, the DMV representative says the police will stop Autocycles if they violate this ruling, and police will be aware that any three-wheeled vehicle will not be allowed on the highway. So, action is needed to try to amend Acts in States that have passed these.

Telchar

04-23-2009, 08:16 PM

Holz

04-23-2009, 08:23 PM

I was under the impression that if one state allowed a vehicle on the road, crossing the border into another wouldn't cause a problem, as other states would recognize the registrations and inspections of another. Is this not the case then?

No. That is not correct. Each state has its own restrictions. Please see some of the earlier posts on this, in this thread that discuss this and provide information from DMV/BMV administrators. It would be good to get readings from other DMVs on this (as KarenRei and John Mammoth have done for Iowa and Michigan), but particularly from the states of Massachusetts, Ohio and Kentucky where the Autocycle laws are already on the books.

Telchar

04-23-2009, 08:27 PM

Federalism causes something of a problem in this case. Maybe the federal government should take over all auto regulations then as "interstate commerce". Being banned from interstate highways in some states in an Aptera would frankly suck.

kerbe

04-23-2009, 09:29 PM

Unlike that proverbial "30 Mile" American driver, my commute is a 112 mile round trip. I live in a vastly rural state -- the nearest full-scale Home Depot is 94 miles away, the nearest cinema, 63. Not only am I going to have to wait for Aptera to grow into a national company, I'm also going to have to wait for the hybrid 2h model to appear!

One would think, though, that any company that could service a golf cart could probably handle routine work on any electric vehicle, given the proper manuals.

WD-40

04-26-2009, 10:23 PM

Now, of course, there's always the question of how to bring it to the DMV -- I don't think they'd look kindly on me driving up in it to get my license so I can drive it ;) Guess I'll need to find someone with a motorcycle license. Or a flatbed.

I'm guessing that it would be easier to find someone with the motorcycle endorsement. Most of the rental flatbeds are not "full" flatbeds, but rather a frame with two tracks for car tires to sit on. The Aptera's third wheel wouldn't have anywhere to go. Also, I think the U-Haul "flatbeds" are <80" wide (fender to fender), so the Aptera wouldn't fit anyway.

I think to get a real flatbed for a "reasonable" cost, you would pretty much have to hire a tow truck. At the rate they charge, I'm sure there would be plenty of licensed motorcycle riders eager to help you out. :thumbsup:

Usually, there's a learners permit you can get by just filling out the form. That should allow for limited use before real licensing....i.e.; allowing you to drive it to the DMV to get your real license.

You can get a motorcycle instruction permit in Iowa by passing the written test, but that still doesn't let you ride (or in this case, drive) a motorcycle on your own. You still have to have another person with a motorcycle endorsement on their license, either with you, or near you in/on another vehicle that is within sight/hearing distance.