VW 1L approved

[10.5]

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/vw-1liter-car_100209999_l.jpg


http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1023641_vw-1-liter-tandem-city-car-tipped-for-2010-production

[SEGsby]

Oh, nice redesign of the front end... Looks more in line with their UP prototypes.

Still too small to carry much cargo though. :(

[KarenRei]

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1023641_vw-1-liter-tandem-city-car-tipped-for-2010-production

It's going to be sad to hear how much the energy consumption has increased. Esp. once it's actually rated on the NEDC. From which you'll need to divide by 1.15 for gasoline equivalence and then again for NEDC/EPA equivalence.

[NeilBlanchard]

That ^^^^ is not the newest version of this car!

This is:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/14/frankfurt-2009-volkswagen-l1-concept-the-most-fuel-efficient/
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/09/13/frankfurt-preview-volkswagen-1-liter-concept-158-mpg-u-s-ta/
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/db2009au01460_medium.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/db2009au01459_medium.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2009/09/db2009al03068_medium.jpg

[virtualeric]

Those windows don't look like they roll down -- LOL

[rayfellow]

VW.. now and wow... From the VW Bug to this, 60 years ago - or maybe 70 - depending on when this one will be priced for every man. The 800 cc TD sounds awesome. VW stock.. may be a good investment.

[Matthijs]

Look at the date of the article. It's from July 3rd 2008. I do not think it's coming. And 100% sure it's not coming in 2010. Last reports say 2013...Maybe.

[aptera1213]

That is pretty sharp looking...and solid for it's size and shape...make it electric and I will add it to my growing list of EVs that I would like to test ride and pick from.


A little longer than I would like for a city commuter, but it will have some storage in the back.

Gavin

[rayfellow]

Look at the date of the article. It's from July 3rd 2008. I do not think it's coming. And 100% sure it's not coming in 2010. Last reports say 2013...Maybe.

um uh... "Frankfurt 2009: Volkswagen L1 Concept, the "most fuel-efficient automobile in the world" gets 170 mpg
by Sebastian Blanco (RSS feed) on Sep 14th 2009 at 5:02PM" From the url Neil posted.

[solardude]

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_2659.shtml

i contacted VW about the L1, and they responded that they are still debating as to whether or not they even bring the L1 to the US market.

[KarenRei]

Anyone know what the latest material for the windshield and transparent parts of the canopy is?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

I'd have to say glass. The body is carbon fiber reinforced plastic, and the crumple structures are aluminum. The canopy is opened electrically. It has video side view mirrors with OLED screens on either side of the dash.

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_2659.shtml

http://i31.tinypic.com/a9qvbt.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/volc0k.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/1zqf2up.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/omnfm.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2a9y0bm.jpg

[KarenRei]

The original version looked like acrylic or polycarbonate, but that definitely looks like glass. Good. Heavier, but BMW wouldn't want to ruin their quality reputation by putting out a product whose windshield will be pretty ugly (abraded, degraded, decreased light transmission, etc) a decade or so down the road.

They're definitely in the process of ruining efficiency in turning a concept into a production model. ;) But it'll still be a very efficient vehicle. I'm still not fond of such a narrow track or the canopy door, and there are some minor places where they've clearly sacrificed efficiency for style, and it's not electric... but apart from those things, it's turning into a real car and seems well done.

[Matthijs]

um uh... "Frankfurt 2009: Volkswagen L1 Concept, the "most fuel-efficient automobile in the world" gets 170 mpg
by Sebastian Blanco (RSS feed) on Sep 14th 2009 at 5:02PM" From the url Neil posted.

I was referring to the article used to start the topic. http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1023641_vw-1-liter-tandem-city-car-tipped-for-2010-production

[virtualeric]

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_2659.shtml

i contacted VW about the L1, and they responded that they are still debating as to whether or not they even bring the L1 to the US market.

That's the impression I get from every manufacturer. Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Ford, Subaru........ they all have electric cars, but THEY'RE NOT SELLING THEM....and they're certainly not entering any of them in the Xprize.

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't cut it for me. Why the waiting game?

[aptera1213]

That is much nicer than the previous model...though still will be expensive.

I want to see it with the trunk open. And with different rear lights... ughh

And with battery power vs diesel.

Gavin

[NeilBlanchard]

It is a diesel electric hybrid, though they do not say if it is a plug-in or not -- so probably not? Because they are trying to save weight -- this newest version is just 380 kilograms (838 lbs), the battery may not be very large, and so it may not be worth plugging in? Another unknown is whether it can be driven in EV-only mode, and/or whether the diesel engine can charge the battery.

But it does have regenerative braking.

[speculawyer]

WOBL1?

Wobble? :rolleye0003:

They might want to change that.

[PatQ562]

I had to dig back a ways to revive this thread. This week's Autoweek (Mar 7 2011) got a short test drive in the VW XL1 concept. It is an interesting glimpse of what a major company can accomplish (and seemingly, reaches some fairly familiar practical limits).
Key stats:
2 passengers, offset seating
153" long, 66" wide, 46" height
1753 lbs weight
27HP brushless motor, 48HP, 0.8L 2-cyl diesel engine
0-62 in about 12 seconds.
Claimed fuel economy 265mpg, exceeding the goal of using less than 1 liter of fuel per 100km of range.
Power to maintain 62mph = 8HP.
Cd 0.186 (similar to the EV1)

But the numbers don't quite add up, as the claimed range is 22 mi electric and 340 miles on the tiny 2.6 gal fuel tank. Assuming this range includes the electric run, this is about 320 miles on however close you want to get to exhausting 2.6 gal, or about 130mpg. Still very impressive, but only half as good as the claimed "1 liter" accomplishment, which must have been measured at an unrealistically low speed.

The 0-62 performance allows us to estimate peak power. The 3200 lb (w/driver) EV1 did it in about 8 seconds, using 100kW max. The 2000 lb XL1 (w/driver) takes 12 sec. Getting 2/3 the acceleration, with 2/3 the weight factors out to about 4/9 the peak power, or approx 45kW.

8HP at 62mph is a very good result relative to mainstream cars (but not quite as good as Edison2's claims). This works out to about 6500-7000 watts, yielding about 110wh/mi, pretty close to Aptera's early claims, and much better than their current claims, causing me to wonder again why Aptera does so poorly given only somewhat greater weight and a supposedly more streamlined body. Perhaps it's the benefit of reduced frontal area, or perhaps VW knows more about reducing rolling friction and other sources of drag.

With only 22 mi electric range, the battery must only hold about 3kWh, which keeps its weight down to about 50 lbs.

If this vehicle was converted to all-electric, it could have a solid 2 hour run at 62 mph on an 18kWh battery with 20% in reserve. This is a realistic 125mi range, adding another 300lbs of battery weight (but minus the diesel motor and stuff).

So in conclusion, an all-out assault on efficiency by a major car company, could result in a small 2-passenger EV, weighing just under 2000 lbs, with 125 mi range on an 18kWh battery, requiring about 3 hours recharge on 240V service, with Prius-level performance.

This is an example of estimation using known statistics and benchmarks.

Pat Q

[randyd]

Thanks Pat, for both the digging and the analysis!

[PatQ562]

Although my analysis might seem slightly dismissive, it occurs to me that the original Honda Civic Insight, of similar size and weight (1980 lbs, 2 seats) gets less than half the mpg (50-55mpg). So the XL1 really is an impressive piece of work, even at a "mere" 130mpg. Presumably, they would have swept the X-Prize in the 2-seat category.

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Yes possibly, though the 2 seat categories were dominated by electrics which got higher MPGe than that? And the Illuminati Motors Seven would have beat it as well; with it's clutch removed from the drivetrain.

[PatQ562]

Fair enough, but as I recall, mpge was not the key factor - you only had to exceed the 100mpge benchmark, then "winning" was a matter of performance. Presumably a mainstream car company prototype would have managed the handling and "race" easily. Of course my old EV1 with reasonably fresh NiMH batteries would have breezed thru as well.
Pat Q

[Mesuge]

Pat, thanks for the update - back of the envelope calc. summary. One comment, I doubt this platform can fit 18kWh even in Lipoly form factor as of now. But whatever capacity could be stored inside pure EV version of it, it would rock. I guess we will have to wait few years anyway, as people won't be hacking into completely new "extreme" car, should it appear one day on the streets in the first place..

[PatQ562]

The main point of my little exercises is to indicate what is reasonably possible for those considering a conversion, or thinking about the various offerings entering the market, whether mainstream or alternative.

Granted that placing 300 lbs of batteries in an unknown vehicle is "just a concept", although eliminating the hybrid engine and its accessories opens up some space.

We all approach our ambitions differently. I like to be reasonably certain of my footing before I take a big step.

FWIW, an advantage of waiting 3-4 more years (if ever) for an alternative concept is that available batteries should now be 35% better (at an average rate of improvement of 8% per year).

Pat

[NeilBlanchard]

This is good news!

http://www.plugincars.com/sites/default/files/2011-volkswagen-xl1-3_0.jpg (http://www.plugincars.com/volkswagen-confirms-2013-production-xl1-plug-diesel-hybrid-109650.html)
(click on image for link)

[SEGsby]

VW XL1 Concept: First Drive

U4tMIvou-Ds

[palmer_md]

City car for Bugatti owners...

Not exactly in my price range as it currently stands.

[NeilBlanchard]

MT seems to gloss over the raison d'être of this car -- the awesome efficiency and fuel mileage. I mean they *mention* it, but they don't even remark on the incredible achievement that this is. They complain about the tire's lack of performance, and say that the steering or braking will be too high effort for some people -- I mean c'mon!

Oh look -- the windows don't open completely!

[SEGsby]

It's been interesting watching this hyper-efficient L1 car concept radically evolve from a tiny capsule-shaped tandem seater-- back into a wider, heavier, more mainstream design.

Does this remind anyone of anything?

[NeilBlanchard]

Well, kinda' reminds me of almost every prototype out there. ;)

The L1 --> XL1 3 generation transition is pretty logical. The XL-1 is wider than the L1, but it is still quite narrow. The Cd has crept up only a little bit, while the weight has more than doubled. The efficiency went way down on the 2nd generation, but the 3rd gen is back up almost as high as the first.

The canopy of the original was the biggest issue with the first car. This design solves that. The tandem seating is a compromise that helped the economy, but not by as much as you might think; and having (near) side-by-side seating is an advantage that most people will want. And the 1st gen car had very slow acceleration.

So, all in all, if the price is reasonable enough, this car will be the thin end of the wedge, hopefully. A halo car, probably, but if it ushers in a Up! Light 4 seater, etc. then great!

[kerbe]

[QUOTE=NeilBlanchard]That ^^^^ is not the newest version of this car!

Actually, VW has killed the idea of a tandem L1, replacing it with the side-by-side XL1...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLBvoa3ouTk&feature=player_detailpage

[SEGsby]

Yes, we know.

This is just an ooooold thread that's been updated over time. Pay no attention to the first posts. ;)

[NeilBlanchard]

The XL-1 is a side-by-side but the passenger's seat is staggered back about 18" behind the driver's seat, so they can be set narrower.

So, in so quarters that is still called a tandem -- the Edison2 VLC tandem was this way, too.

[kerbe]

Didn't notice that I was on the wrong page...