Range Anxiety: Is it overplayed, Is it FUD or is it Justified? [Archive] - ApteraForum.com

aptera1213

03-04-2010, 10:59 AM

MSNBC BUSINESS Section (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35352973/ns/business-autos/)

I personally think "Range Anxiety" is overplayed.

For most range is not an issue. And for those who need long range, an EV is not the car for you. Simple.

It seems this slight against EVs is already becoming a non-player in anti-EV attacks.

Do people need to know the range of a car they buy? Hell yes.

But I think this issue isn't a big deal for early EV adopters who understand the pros and cons of current EVs (get it...current ha---god, puns are truly the lowest form of humor)...and will be less of a deal as battery packs decrease in price, increase in size/power and more infrastructure is added.

evchels is a great voice on this, and a very good example. She drove an EV everyday for some time...and didn't find range an issue...or I don't think she did...evchels? your thoughts?

And for the rest here, what do you think?

Gavin

ps...you can vote for 2 answers...i did that so everybody can vote for beer. :)

speculawyer

03-04-2010, 11:29 AM

I picked 'beer' as an 'all of the above'. Here is why:

Will not be an issue as EV buyers will be well informed of Pros and Cons
Is not FUD...Range Anxiety is real and well deserved.
Is real, but will subside very quickly as infrastructure is added.

These are all true. Range anxiety will not be much of an issue if people are well informed and buy an EV with limited range only for commuting a regular small distance. People do need to know that they can't drive their 100 mile EV on a long weekend trip (unless better place battery swap succeeds). And it won't be an issue for people that get PHEVs like the Volt.

Range anxiety is not FUD . . . it is real. Yeah, gas cars run out of gas but if you run out of a charge with an EV you are in much worse shape. A gas car can get a gallon of gas and then off you go. An EV . . . well, situation is worse:
1) You could be towed . . . that is very expensive.
2) Perhaps highway service vehicles could start carrying little portable generators and give those to EVs that are stranded. However, the EV won't be able to move for a long time since it needs to charge. And this infrastructure does not exist yet.
3) It would be nice if there was a standardized genset interface so a service vehicle could give a genset device like trailer or small portable generator.

Range anxiety is real but will subside as infrastructure is built up. If charging stations start appearing everywhere . . home, work, parking garages, the mall, strip malls, etc. then you'll be able to charge where ever you go. If there was a good infrastructure then people could really get away with EVs that have small batteries. 40 miles or might be fine. If the EV wants to get things moving, it would really be nice to start getting laws (mostly building codes & development requirements) that require a charging infrastructure.
1) Perhaps require X EV chargers per Y parking places.
2) A more important law might be requiring base infrastructure for ALL parking places to be upgraded to having charging ports. You wouldn't need to actually install chargers yet, just have the conduit needed later install chargers at a later time. This would be a really smart law. Adding a little extra conduit at the time of building something would be dirt cheap. It is just a few extra pieces of PVC or steel tubing. When compared to the cost of retro-fitting a charging infrastructure into something that wasn't designed to have one, it is just a no-brainer.

If the charging infrastructure were built up and they boosted the allowed NEV speed to 35 or 40mph then NEVs wouldn't be such an EV ghetto. If you are just driving to the local store, the local school, the local mall, the local movie theater, etc. An NEV would be fine. 25 mph is just too damn slow though . . . that is barely above electric bike & Segway speeds. The standard speed within towns is 30mph, so 35 to 40 mph should be fine.

KarenRei

03-04-2010, 11:47 AM

It depends on who your target buyer is, too.

aptera1213

03-04-2010, 11:50 AM

Ev evolution:

City commuter to Suburban commuter to Rural commuter.

Will take some time. But will happen.

Gavin

chijayhawker

03-04-2010, 12:08 PM

Since I'm one of those people who belongs to a couple that has 3 vehicles, I think Range anxiety will not exist. Knowing where my destination lies will determine which vehicle I choose to use. Once I get an EV that choice will be much more clear. Right now my choice is based on non-economical reasons. I think it will make a new group of consumers for the automakers of the world to appeal to. Those who want to make "green" decisions in their life when they CAN, but when they don't have an option will be forced to select a non-green choice. It will make more sense for all those homes that were built with 3 car garages during the housing boom, too, which are usually only occupied with only 2 primary drivers.

SEGsby

03-04-2010, 04:51 PM

The real downside to forgetting to plug in an EV overnight, is that you can't fill it to capacity as quickly as you can with a gas car, should you suddenly discover you need to use it for a trip of significant distance.

This will be less and less of a problem as times goes by... But for me, it's currently a real issue and I need to keep mindful of it, and plan my recharge time as best I can. Cold weather (especially evening use) also significantly limits my range, and my anxiety drops as it warms up...

error79

03-04-2010, 04:52 PM

I've got range anxiety in petrol cars...

scottsim

03-04-2010, 06:08 PM

Range anxiety was an issue in moving me toward a PHEV (aside from the lack of a reasonable EV on the market).

Without infrastructure and rapid charging it is a REAL issue. Yeah I can pick one of the ICE cars/truck when I need to go further, but the ideal is to have an EV without anxiety.

KarenRei

03-04-2010, 06:10 PM

The real downside to forgetting to plug in an EV overnight, is that you can't fill it to capacity as quickly as you can with a gas car

The real downside to forgetting to turn off a gasoline car overnight is that you can't fill it back up from home.

;)

I expect to forget to plug in my EV about as often as I forget to turn off my gasoline car.

SlowSRT4

03-04-2010, 09:38 PM

The real downside to forgetting to turn off a gasoline car overnight is that you can't fill it back up from home.

;)

I expect to forget to plug in my EV about as often as I forget to turn off my gasoline car.
Not really. It is nearly impossible to forget to shut off a gas car. You will probably need your keys to unlock your door, and to lock the doors on your car. Plus you can hear it running when you get out.

Plugging your car in, on the other hand, is something new that you need to remember to do and get into a routine with. Unless there is some kind of reminder (for example, an iPhone/Droid reminder that is tied to the charging app like the Volt might have), then I think a number of people will get caught with a low charge at least once.

It may seem easy to you, but I assure you some people are forgetful of these things until they make a habit of it.

SEGsby

03-04-2010, 10:37 PM

I've certainly forgotten and woken up the next day (on multiple occasions) to discover that I only have 20-50% charge and need access to a power cord for about 2-8 hours to get any suitable range back. When you have a lot of things to deal with at home, it's not at all surprising that folks can get distracted, often remembering the hundreds of prior rituals of plugging in-- only to find that's not actually been the case in the morning...

Frack!

After the first couple times you screw yourself by forgetting, I will say it does impress upon you how important it is to check again, before you go to bed. That is precious recharge time that can't easily be made up if it's lost.

As for filling gas at home, we used to have a gravity tank on the farm. The Marathon truck would come by once a month or so, to fill it. And it was faster than recharging any battery technology available at the time. I still remember my younger bother daring me to put the nozzle in his mouth and pull the handle; which he did. His cheeks puffed out and he fell backwards and didn't get up. He started thrashing on the ground. I ran screaming to the house for my parents... The ambulance came and they pumped his stomach out.

So, it's entirely possible to fuel even partially up at any home (even with those tiny refillable cans with a carrying handle) so you can limp back to a fueling station for a proper fill up. There is currently no equivalent for this with the electric device I own.

The Aptera was supposed to have software that communicated via your cell phone, so you could basically be informed about what attention it needs, and when you wanted it to start charging. Plus, the big tail lights showing charge levels (if Team B hasn't abandoned that idea), should be a big help and nearly eliminate the issue.

Can't wait for fast charging stations to become mainstream...

aptera1213

03-04-2010, 10:47 PM

Ha, I know one group of drivers who will love electric cars and charging at home...KIDS...

Free fuel in their eyes...never having to bum money to hit the gas station. Every morning the tank is full. Sweet.

As for range anixiety, I remember putting 50 cents in the tank in high school so I would have enough to make it through that day...and scrounging up more coins the next day to do it again...Ha, I remember once driving up and putting 24 cents in the tank because that was all I had...I didn't know if it was worth traveling out of my way to the station to do it...I would have LOVED to plug in every night on my mother's dime.

I don't think I actually ran out of gas more than a couple of times...but I was worried about it just about every day.

Gavin

palmer_md

03-04-2010, 11:01 PM

No more fears about range anxieity...these guys have it all figured out. Just give them a call.

RANGE DOUBLER For EV's

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Phone Jeff 386-837-9455 or Write Jeff

You may view pictures and a low quality video at www.triplebatterylife.com

SEGsby

03-04-2010, 11:11 PM

Yes, the photo of his "range doubling circuit" in a trailer pulled behind a Zap Car, almost as large as the vehicle pulling it, is impressive... ;)

PatQ562

03-05-2010, 01:37 AM

I had minimal "range anxiety" with my EV1 because the capacity gauge and range estimator were pretty good, and showed you the benefits of slowing down if you were looking marginal on range. Plus it was kind of a game. BUT I will admit I experienced "range liberation" when I switched to the Honda Civic Hybrid and started taking long weekend drives on not very much gas.

Pat Q

speculawyer

03-05-2010, 02:05 AM

The real downside to forgetting to turn off a gasoline car overnight is that you can't fill it back up from home.

;)

I expect to forget to plug in my EV about as often as I forget to turn off my gasoline car.
C'mon, that is not comparable. The gas car has that noise which reminds you it is running. Plus you can't take you keys with you w/o turning it off.

But I don't think forgetting plugging in will be a problem as long as there is something like a phone app that sends you a reminder if you didn't do it.

Rhodomel

03-05-2010, 08:34 AM

I don't want to buy another car nor rent one so that I can drive the occassional long distance. There will be no suited batteries nor infrastructure for quick charging over the next decade.

Many people who are testing the Leaf have to be towed several times because of wrong range indicator. It is quite complex to calculate remaining range when temperature fluctuates wildly. Not everyone lives in coastal areas.

aptera1213

03-05-2010, 09:21 AM

Then I wouldn't buy a current or near future EV :)

Evs are not for everybody. Just like trucks aren't for everybody. Nor scooters. Nor Buses or Trains.

It is good to have lots of choices though...the more the better.

Gavin

SlowSRT4

03-05-2010, 11:34 AM

C'mon, that is not comparable. The gas car has that noise which reminds you it is running. Plus you can't take you keys with you w/o turning it off.

But I don't think forgetting plugging in will be a problem as long as there is something like a phone app that sends you a reminder if you didn't do it.
Are you poking fun at my post or something?

speculawyer

03-05-2010, 12:00 PM

I've certainly forgotten and woken up the next day (on multiple occasions) to discover that I only have 20-50% charge and need access to a power cord for about 2-8 hours to get any suitable range back.

After the first couple times you screw yourself by forgetting, I will say it does impress upon you how important it is to check again, before you go to bed. That is precious recharge time that can't easily be made up if it's lost.
Yeah, it does seem like something that will happen on occasion. But again, new EVs like the Volt will apparently have an application that will send your phone a message if you forget to plug-in your car at night . . . that is awesome. The Leaf better have the same since it is much more important on that car.

As for filling gas at home, we used to have a gravity tank on the farm. The Marathon truck would come by once a month or so, to fill it. And it was faster than recharging any battery technology available at the time. I still remember my younger bother daring me to put the nozzle in his mouth and pull the handle; which he did. His cheeks puffed out and he fell backwards and didn't get up. He started thrashing on the ground. I ran screaming to the house for my parents... The ambulance came and they pumped his stomach out.
Ugh. And depending on your age, that gas may have had lots of lead in it. And again, when people complain about any safety aspect of EVs you really need to keep in mind the real danger of gas cars with a toxic and very flammable substance.

So, it's entirely possible to fuel even partially up at any home (even with those tiny refillable cans with a carrying handle) so you can limp back to a fueling station for a proper fill up. There is currently no equivalent for this with the electric device I own.
Yeah, someone needs to invent something here. Perhaps a super-capacitor that can be charged fast, connected to a dedicated special port, and used in an emergency. Or perhaps a special port for allowing a little gas-powered generator to be connected?

SEGsby

03-05-2010, 12:18 PM

speculawyer

03-05-2010, 12:49 PM

Another issue that isn't much discussed, is when families start depending more on the stability of their home's power to run everything... Even their transportation needs.

The effects of hurricanes, tornadoes, lighting strikes, drunk drivers hitting power poles, exploding transformers, sun spots, et al., will have an even more dramatic effect on people (and so too, the larger economy) as they transition over.

Eventually, I expect all power lines to be buried or go wireless to some degree. Home generators that use fuels will probably also become more popular. Home solar / wind with on site storage might be another way around this?
Wow. That is a good point. It might just become something we all have to live with. Perhaps the utilities will create reserve teams of fixers so they can fix outages faster? Home generators will probably be used to a limited degree.

I don't see solar/wind really helping much . . . the way most grid-tied solar inverters are designed, they quit working if a power outage occurs. (The reason is to protect utility workers that go out to fix the lines . . . they want the lines to be unpowered so they can fix them.)

Most people don't get batteries for their solar systems since it greatly raises the cost and adds an annoying maintenance factor. And they are actually not good for the system since the idea is to have that solar power available immediately for use by others during the day time peak. The solar user gets the solar power they gave out during the day back at night from the utility when demands are lower.

aptera1213

03-05-2010, 01:35 PM

I've certainly forgotten and woken up the next day (on multiple occasions) to discover that I only have 20-50% charge and need access to a power cord for about 2-8 hours to get any suitable range back.

While I can see this happening, I imagine it will happen about as often as I forget to close the garage door...so about once every 2 years...It seems a routine...Park car, turn off car, close garage door, go inside...Add plug in car and all is good...yes you can forget, but you can forget closing the garage door, putting the car in park and have it coast down the driveway...etc etc...but most routine things become, routine.

Of course the difference is my neighbor won't be coming over to remind me to plug in my car like he reminds me my garage door is open.

Luckily my commute is small. I plan to charge my EV everynight. But the reality is I could go a few days without recharging and still be fine (my daily commute is about 12 miles a day).

Gavin

KarenRei

03-05-2010, 04:18 PM

The effects of hurricanes, tornadoes, lighting strikes, drunk drivers hitting power poles, exploding transformers, sun spots, et al., will have an even more dramatic effect on people (and so too, the larger economy) as they transition over.

What do you think happens to gas stations when the power goes out for any significant amount of time? Gas pumps run on electricity, too. After Hurricane Ike, the power shortages meant there was almost nowhere to buy gas where my family was. On the other hand, the power outages being random and sporadic, while most of my family didn't have power, my grandmother's house did. So while my family there couldn't have gotten gasoline without a really long drive, they could have gotten electricity by staying at my grandmother's house for a bit. A place that also had air conditioning. ;) After a hurricane, it's sweltering outside.

evmavin

03-05-2010, 04:28 PM

What do you think happens to gas stations when the power goes out for any significant amount of time? Gas pumps run on electricity, too. After Hurricane Ike, the power shortages meant there was almost nowhere to buy gas where my family was. On the other hand, the power outages being random and sporadic, while most of my family didn't have power, my grandmother's house did. So while my family there couldn't have gotten gasoline without a really long drive, they could have gotten electricity by staying at my grandmother's house for a bit. A place that also had air conditioning. ;) After a hurricane, it's sweltering outside.

And if you have solar and the power is down you can charge off your solar if needed.

KarenRei

03-05-2010, 05:17 PM

Plus, in the lead-up to a major hurricane, there are literal fights at gas stations at times, that's how much demand surges beyond what supply can provide. And many if not most stations get run out of gasoline. But electricity demand is low because of all of the people who leave.

Anyway, if you do stay behind after a major hurricane hits, you generally don't want to drive around too much. You're impairing repair and rescue crews, and the roads are littered with debris and can be quite dangerous. Heck, in Galveston, both a lion *and* a tiger (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2977856/Lion-on-the-run-hampers-Hurricane-Ike-rescue-efforts.html) were on the loose for a while after Ike. There can be just cause to get out of the home (for example, my younger sister and her husband braved the streets to saved my parent's RV from the rising waters at its storage facility -- it was up to the tires, and several others had already been flooded). But in general, you want to just stay wherever you are until the roads are cleared and safe.

evmavin

03-05-2010, 05:20 PM

speculawyer

03-05-2010, 05:59 PM

And if you have solar and the power is down you can charge off your solar if needed.
No, with most grid-tied solar systems, you cannot. See my above post.

speculawyer

03-05-2010, 06:01 PM

Heck, in Galveston, both a lion *and* a tiger (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/2977856/Lion-on-the-run-hampers-Hurricane-Ike-rescue-efforts.html) were on the loose for a while after Ike.
No bears?

Perhaps they got blown to Kansas?

SEGsby

03-05-2010, 06:24 PM

When I lived in Pittsburgh, we had power interruptions due to the city's service tunnels becoming flooded every spring.

Much of the power systems got flooded and it's the only place where I've seen huge pipes duct out water from manholes, directly into the river.

Many unfortunate cars parked down by "The Point", would get trapped and submerged. They'd sit or float there for days, until they cleared the area up.

I wonder how well an EV would do if submerged for any length of time? Do Apteras float, like the early Beetles did? What would happen if you were stuck in high water, sitting in an EV that got inundated?

This is the kind of stuff I think about...

evmavin

03-05-2010, 07:07 PM

No, with most grid-tied solar systems, you cannot. See my above post.

Yes you can. It takes a modification but you can, and safely.

KarenRei

03-05-2010, 07:27 PM

I wonder how well an EV would do if submerged for any length of time? Do Apteras float, like the early Beetles did? What would happen if you were stuck in high water, sitting in an EV that got inundated?

That's what circuit breakers and fuses are for. You can have fuses all the way down to a per-cell basis. Plus, you're anything but the shortest route between two battery terminals. Also, a lot of hybrids have systems that preemptively throw the circuit breakers if flooding is detected.

Due to the mechanical simplicity, assuming that the battery pack is designed to not be ruined by flooding (just temporarily disabled), I'd think you'd end off for the better in an EV than an ICE. Of course, if you had to replace the pack, that'd not be cheap to say the least.

evmavin

03-05-2010, 07:29 PM

That's what circuit breakers and fuses are for. You can have fuses all the way down to a per-cell basis. Plus, you're anything but the shortest route between two battery terminals. Also, a lot of hybrids have systems that preemptively throw the circuit breakers if flooding is detected.

Due to the mechanical simplicity, assuming that the battery pack is designed to not be ruined by flooding (just temporarily disabled), I'd think you'd end off for the better in an EV than an ICE. Of course, if you had to replace the pack, that'd not be cheap to say the least.

Yes, but not with a brushed, non-sealed DC motor like the NMG.

PatQ562

03-06-2010, 01:03 AM

This talk of flooding reminds me of a dream I had, either when I had the EV1 or shortly thereafter. As usual in dreams, "somehow" I ended up having to drive the car into deep water. To my amazement, it ran fine. Then I realized there was no particular reason for the car to stall since it doesn't breathe air. Reasonably clean water is not that great of a conductor although I don't know what 350 volts will do. Anyway it was just a dream. But fuses and breaker don't help with mild shorts such as water since they must be sized to carry the peak amperage of the motor. A gas engine car that has been submerged is really pretty much toast due to silt getting in the motor and hidden areas, although unscrupulous salvagers will clean off the visible mud and sell them to suckers. An Aptera would probably require dismantling and washing down with clean water but it probably could be brought back to life.

PatQ562

03-06-2010, 01:31 AM

Especially if battery management is conservative and a few deep discharges are tolerable, there is a considerable "reserve factor" to alleviate range anxiety. If you're 90% confident of going 120 miles, and fall a few miles short, a 20% reserve cushion will get you home.

Pat Q

SEGsby

03-06-2010, 01:49 AM

Especially if you have a tail-wind, it's warm and you drive slooooow. ;)

speculawyer

03-06-2010, 10:08 PM

Yes you can. It takes a modification but you can, and safely.
Not with most inverters sold with grid-tied systems. And if you are modifying them, then I believe you are taking quite the legal and safety risk.

speculawyer

03-06-2010, 10:12 PM

I wonder how well an EV would do if submerged for any length of time? Do Apteras float, like the early Beetles did? What would happen if you were stuck in high water, sitting in an EV that got inundated?
They do get tested for safety in such situations.

http://thinkev.com/var/think/storage/images/media/images/ev_technology_safety_2/10133-1-eng-GB/EV_Technology_Safety_2.gif

rayfellow

03-07-2010, 05:48 AM

Especially if you have a tail-wind, it's warm and you drive slooooow. ;)

Well... when I was a kid, we walked to school... up hill... both directions... in the snow... bare foot.. AND we liked it! :rolleye0003:

evmavin

03-07-2010, 11:26 AM

Not with most inverters sold with grid-tied systems. And if you are modifying them, then I believe you are taking quite the legal and safety risk.

You modify the design not the inverter, as I mentioned "you can". Mt system is capable by safely and completely disconnecting from the grid when local power is needed when there is no mains voltage present.

SEGsby

03-07-2010, 12:56 PM

No, I mean water INSIDE the cabin with a live passenger.

If you end up in a flooded ditch, at some point; at least one door will need to be opened...

Although fun to see, floating on top the water like an amusement park ride isn't the worst case scenario.

They do get tested for safety in such situations.

http://thinkev.com/var/think/storage/images/media/images/ev_technology_safety_2/10133-1-eng-GB/EV_Technology_Safety_2.gif

SEGsby

03-07-2010, 12:57 PM

I did too, so I don't get the point you're trying to make. Sorry.

Well... when I was a kid, we walked to school... up hill... both directions... in the snow... bare foot.. AND we liked it! :rolleye0003:

PatQ562

03-07-2010, 02:24 PM

I can't say for sure, but I am fairly certain that an occupant trapped in a flooded EV would not be subject to electrocution, assuming the connections are all insulated and no live metal can be touched.

The problem of escaping from a submerged vehicle is another story. Generally, doors can't be opened against the pressure of the water until the cabin has nearly filled up, requiring the occupants to remain unusually cool headed, using the diminishing pocket of air at the top until nearly gone. Rolling down a window to escape is another possibility, although said pressure may create too much drag for electric windows, until nearly equalized. Of course, once you get a window or door open you're committed to escaping as the remaining air will rush out.

Will an Aptera float? It might! The body forms a tub with significant sills. Much depends on how it settles on the water (where the center of gravity is). The front suspension and motor compartment is open to the water so it won't add buoyancy, but if the batteries go behind the seats, this may keep the rear end down. If we estimate the "boat's" sills at 8 inches, the width at 4 feet, and the floatable length at 8 feet, this displaces about 20 cubic feet of water, at 64 lbs/cuft, providing 1280 lbs of buoyancy. Unfortunately, even if we assume the "pan" is leak-proof, this is not enough to stay afloat (with 1800 lbs of vehicle weight), but only about 4-6 inches of door should be submerged, which could float for a while, depending on the door seals. It would be hilarious if the front wheels could "dog paddle" to safety during this period - depending on where the motor controller lives, it might not short out until it finally sinks.

Pat Q