Fiat 500 EV

[SlowSRT4]

It is official and coming to the US market first!

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/01/fiat_500_ev_01.jpg
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/01/fiat_500_ev_06.jpg


Source article:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/22/chrysler-500ev-all-electric-fiat-500-for-u-s/


Full press release:


Chrysler Group LLC to Develop New Fiat 500 Electric Vehicle for the United States

- New Fiat 500EV demonstrates benefits of Chrysler Group and Fiat Group alliance
- Zero-emission Fiat 500EV provides an environmentally friendly, clean, quiet driving experience freeing customers from escalating fuel costs and costly oil changes
- Department of Energy provides up to $48 million grant toward test fleet of 140 Ram Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles
- PHEV technology to improve fuel economy up to 65 percent with up to 20 mile electric-only driving range

Auburn Hills, Mich., Mar 22, 2010 -

Chrysler Group LLC today announced its plans to engineer and produce a pure electric vehicle using the Fiat 500 platform. Shown earlier this year at the 2010 North American International Auto Show, the Fiat 500EV demonstrates the immediate benefits of the alliance between Chrysler Group and the Fiat Group as well as the speed at which the two companies can work together on advanced vehicle programs.

"The alliance with Fiat presented new opportunities to merge Chrysler Group engineering knowledge with new platforms and the Fiat 500EV is an outstanding example of our efforts," said Scott Kunselman, Senior Vice President Engineering-Chrysler Group LLC. "The Fiat 500 is a small, lightweight platform perfect for integrating electric-vehicle technology."

The Fiat 500EV powertrain is comprised of three main systems; high power electric powertrain module, advance lithium ion battery, and an EV control unit to manage power flows. Beginning in 2012, Chrysler Group will manufacture the Fiat 500EV for the United States market. All powertrain engineering and vehicle development will take place at Chrysler Group headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. Pricing will be announced closer to launch, but will be competitive with similar electric vehicles in the market.

Chrysler Group is the vehicle electrification center of competence for both Chrysler Group and Fiat Group. The company is exploring ways to promote zero-emission transportation and the development of an electric-vehicle charging infrastructure through partnerships to be announced in the future.

Last year Chrysler Group announced the company's intention to build the Fiat 500 with a combustion engine for North America. The vehicle will debut in late 2010.

Ram Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV)

Chrysler Group has been selected for a U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) grant of up to $48 million as part of a $2.4 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Act DOE Vehicle Electrification program. Chrysler Group is planning to build a total of 140 Ram PHEVs for a three-year demonstration project that includes various geographic and climatic locations across the United States.

"This initiative represents how government, automotive industry, suppliers and key partners are reaching common goals and demonstrates how rapidly this type of advanced technology can be brought to market," said Paolo Ferrero, Senior Vice President-Powertrain, Chrysler Group LLC. "DOE-support for domestic advanced technology is an important enabler for Chrysler Group and its key suppliers in order to understand and test customer acceptance and the capability of PHEV systems in a variety of real-world conditions."

The Ram PHEV features Chrysler Group's 5.7-liter HEMI V-8 with a two mode hybrid transmission and a 12KwHr lithium ion battery. The vehicle is capable of up to 20 miles of zero-emission, pure-electric range without the need for gasoline. An overall fuel economy improvement more than 65 percent is expected for average drive cycles. Chrysler Group has partnered with Electrovaya Inc. to supply the advanced lithium Ion batteries for the Ram PHEV test fleet.

The DOE grant will expedite the development of vehicle-electrification technology. More than 21 Chrysler Group partners across the U.S., including utility companies, government agencies and Universities will independently test the Ram PHEV and provide valuable data for the advancement of the technology.

In 2008, Chrysler Group announced the company's intention to bring a Ram Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) to market. After closely evaluating the response to hybrid pickups in the marketplace, the company could not formulate an appropriate business case and has decided to cancel development work on the 2011 Ram HEV.

Chrysler Group's alliance with Fiat Group brings new platforms and technologies that allow the company to create an improved long-term product strategy with greater fuel efficiency and reduced emissions. Chrysler Group's five-year plan has an uncompromising product schedule, including a progressive vehicle electrification strategy.

[SEGsby]

Where is the link to the original article / material?

Thanks.

[Grendal]

It is official and coming to the US market first!


Before what? The ICE version will debut late 2010. The EV won't be until 2012 at best.

[Matthijs]

I think he means before the European market.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/01/fiat_500_ev_03.jpg
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/01/fiat_500_ev_04.jpg
Love the drive selector buttons.

[DSC OFF]

A Dodge Ram that will go 20 miles on electricity alone? What?

[SlowSRT4]

Where is the link to the original article / material?

Thanks.
Forgot. I just added it.

Before what? The ICE version will debut late 2010. The EV won't be until 2012 at best.
Haha, I meant before those darn Europeans. ;)

A Dodge Ram that will go 20 miles on electricity alone? What?
That's the beauty of a PHEV. I think it's a great idea for a truck like the Ram. :doublethumbs:

[SlowSRT4]

I hope Fiat learns from Th!nk and not the Mini...do the batteries right and you don't lose the back seat...not that I plan to use the back seat, but it would still be smart to have it available....

If the Th!nk can get the batteries in under the seats and keep a back seat, I'm sure Fiat can too if they don't get lazy.

Gavin
The EV drivetrain will be built and designed by the prior Chrysler ENVI engineers in Michigan. They produced the car that was at the auto show with the batteries under the floor. As was stated by Wired, for it being only a prototype it was actually very finished and well-designed.

I highly doubt they will suddenly change and decide to just drop the batteries in the rear seat. But I suppose anything's possible. :doublethumbs:

[aptera1213]

This car has suddenly moved to the top of my list (depending on Aptera of course....that said....).

I would love to own one in 2011, I will likely grudgingly wait to own one in 2012...

Of course if suddenly a Th!nk was available in 2011 for under 25k, I might have to grab one of those to use for a couple of years and get a 500 in 2014 or around then.

But if the 500 really looks that nice and has the back seat available and has that beautifully open front "engine" area...dang they will have done the EV right. If they hit their target of 32k and get a rebate of 7500, suddenly this is a beautiful EV for 25k.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Buy a regular Fiat 500 this year, then a Fiat 500 EV in 2012. You could have the cutest garage ever with two little baby Fiat 500's parked in there. :p

[SlowSRT4]

I'm looking forward to the U.S. market reaction to Fiat 500 Nuova, this is really tiny car, even as you pass it now in ICE format on euro streets in motion/parked. I'd guess some people across the pond might not survive this "psychologic moment" of truth, the smaller impression than from say a BMW Mini, hah. Seriously, there is some talk they will use a bit larger platform for the U.S. bound F500. It's a smart car, you have to sit in in it to appreciate the ergonomics, which went into the project. My only major negative observation was the relatively hard suspension setup, i.e. not good for the post peak oil world full of ever increasing mega pot holes, but if you are flipping cars say each 2-3years this prolly doesn't matter much.
Thought I would reply to this in this thread instead of the other one.

The Fiat 500 is exactly like a Mini, not a lot smaller like you say, it certainly is not a Smart car like you are saying. I compared the dimensions in one of my earlier posts:
http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=48633&postcount=287

Although that is based on the european Fiat 500's dimensions. You are correct the US Fiat 500 will be built on a new platform. The 2011 Fiat baby car A platform, same one which will be used in the 2011 Fiat Panda and 2011 Lancia Ypsilon. However, it is not a larger platform, the Fiat 500 won't be "bastardized" for the US. Its only changes will stem from the changeover to the newer platform and the redesign of the bumpers to meet US specifications. All explained in this post:
http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/04/us-fiat-500-bigger-than-european.html

There will also be great benefits to the new platform. Increased safety, decreased NVH (noise, vibration, harshness), and it will even shed a few pounds supposedly in the process. :D

I personally really like the car and can't wait to get one. I like Jeremy Clarkson's (of Top Gear) description of it as being your own personal pet mouse. Also, he seems to fit very comfortably in the car and he is a 6 ft 4 in tall man. I'm only 5'9". :tongue0006:

Here is the episode for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ

So this car seems perfect for me. Small, light, excellent fuel economy, fun to drive, and great looking.

But you ask about the market reaction in the US. Well I think it will do very well here, despite clearly being designed as a euro car. There are small cars that sell here. Mini, Smart, Honda Fit, Chevy Aveo, etc. The Fiat 500 should do very well in this segment. It is very affordable, but also desirable and well-equipped. So I definitely think that american consumers will see the value in this car over the Smarts, Aveos, and Fits.

I'm actually planning to buy a Fiat 500 this year, even though I will also be putting a deposit on a Leaf (just seeing how it plays out). This will give me excellent fuel economy and cost me less than $15k (likely), which I will use until the EV version arrives.

[aptera1213]

http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/04/fiat-500-waiting-for-news.html

So more Fiat news coming on 4/21...nice, but I wish they had pushed it up to 4/19 ahead of the LEAF reservations.

I could just get the gas Fiat 500 and drive that till the Fiat 500EV comes to the states...But I will likely still get a LEAF lease or Focus EV or Th!nk and drive that until the Fiat 500ev gets to the states. I love the look and size of the 500, but I really want to support EVs...so that means bypassing the gas 500 and getting one of the early EVs.

Still it will be an option that plays in my head a bit (cheap, tiny, will let me know how I will like the 500EV in size and driving before I laid down the extra cash for the EV model, etc)


Gavin

ps...nice to know the 500 has a 5 star crash rating in europe. and nice to see just how quiet the ride is...and that is with a gas engine...image it with the electric motor.

[aptera1213]

I'm actually planning to buy a Fiat 500 this year, even though I will also be putting a deposit on a Leaf (just seeing how it plays out). This will give me excellent fuel economy and cost me less than $15k (likely), which I will use until the EV version arrives.
Edit/Delete Message

This.

I am also seeing this as a possible stepping stone. I might get a LEAF or a FocusEV...or TH!nk or iMiEV.

Or I might get a 500 and ride it till the 500EV hits the market.

Either is a good option with pros and cons each way.

(500 is cheaper. Probably will have a faster ramp up. Is a beautiful car. But I'm still using gas, which I would prefer not to. The Leaf will get me off gas immediately. But will cost more and, while nice looking, is not the beauty that the 500 is.)


Gavin

[aptera1213]

mmmm, my two posts are mildly schizophrenic. :)
Similar, but not quite the same. I just really want a 500....Dammit, make the EV first, gas second....

was replying and didn't see I had already replied.

Gavin

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's a Fiat 500 plug-in serial hybrid, that looks pretty awesome:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/05/fev-20100512.html#more

A 295cc Wankel powered genset -- now yer talkin'!

[SlowSRT4]

mmmm, my two posts are mildly schizophrenic. :)
Similar, but not quite the same. I just really want a 500....Dammit, make the EV first, gas second....

was replying and didn't see I had already replied.

Gavin
Seems like they are trying to push the Fiat's out as fast as possible.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/11/marchionne-chryslers-fiat-infusion-may-come-earlier-than-expec/

Personally I'm rather happy with their timetables. I'm glad the Fiat 500 gas version is coming out this year which will really ramp up production (let's face it, gas cars are the real sellers), and I am extremely happy with the EV coming out in 2012. Yes, Ford and Nissan are bringing out EVs in 2011, but Chrysler coming out with an EV in 2012 (or 4th quarter 2011?) still seems pretty bleeding-edge to me. It's not like every other automaker has full-production EVs coming out next year and Chrysler is behind the curve... if anything I would say they are ahead of the curve. ;)

[aptera1213]

True...but I will have a one year old Nissan LEAF at home when the Fiat 500ev is released...And I don't think I need two commuter cars.

So I am torn. I want an EV asap to get off gas and to support the growth of EVs and the infrastructure needed. So I'm getting a LEAF no ifs ands or butts. But I really really love the 500ev.

And it is all about me really :)

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

We shall see. ;)

[NeilBlanchard]

A little teaser:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1045101_snapped-on-the-street-fiat-500-electric-car-visits-palo-alto

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/2012-fiat-500_100312380_l.jpg

[SlowSRT4]

Nice to see that in CA with Michigan plates, and it is not the same one from the auto show. So they definitely have multiples roaming about. :)

Go little electric Fiat! Go! :)

[aptera1213]

Gosh that would look nice in my garage...fiat get it here now...

:)

Gavin

[JustWilliam]

Here's a Fiat 500 plug-in serial hybrid, that looks pretty awesome:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/05/fev-20100512.html#more

A 295cc Wankel powered genset -- now yer talkin'!
SWEET! Nice find!

[NeilBlanchard]

I wish that the Fiat 500 came as a 3-door (a la Saturn?) or as a 4-door. Ditto for the Th!nk City...

[evmavin]

I wish that the Fiat 500 came as a 3-door (a la Saturn?) or as a 4-door. Ditto for the Th!nk City...


Then they would be different cars. It's like the MINI and the MINI clubman (terrible car), ruins the point. If Think survives they will launch a 4-door but the entire point of the Think is its size and weight capacity.

[aptera1213]

You'll be wanting not the 500, but the 2011 Panda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_rHftGSMUs&feature=player_embedded#!

Gavin

[randyd]

You'll be wanting not the 500, but the 2011 Panda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_rHftGSMUs&feature=player_embedded#!

Gavin

Thanks for finding that Gavin.

But the problem I have with both of the Fiat 500 and the Panda is their lack of aerodynamics. There is something cute about their look, but in a BEV, efficiency is critical (in my opinion). My first BEV must have a very low CdA, strong regen on the brakes, etc. Maybe when batteries have increased their capacity 4 fold, I will be less concerned with efficiency, but if it can't drive a 100+ freeway mile round trip, I won't be buying it. :fighting0001:

[evmavin]

Thanks for finding that Gavin.

But the problem I have with both of the Fiat 500 and the Panda is their lack of aerodynamics. There is something cute about their look, but in a BEV, efficiency is critical (in my opinion). My first BEV must have a very low CdA, strong regen on the brakes, etc. Maybe when batteries have increased their capacity 4 fold, I will be less concerned with efficiency, but if it can't drive a 100+ freeway mile round trip, I won't be buying it. :fighting0001:


If you are doing 100+ freeway RT a car like the 500 seems like a poor choice regardless of aero as it is more of a city car. Also it will be choppy on the freeway due to the short wheel base. I would guess that most buyer of the 500 will be short distance and recreational drivers and those that value parking and the cute factor, not long haul commuters for the most part.

[aptera1213]

Yep...which is why it is great to have choices...

Though at this time we have no real 100 plus highway mile choices except in the Tesla...

It also depends on do you want to go 100 plus highway miles with 4 people...

So choices are good...right now it sucks, but the horizon looks grand...hopefully it isn't all a mirage :)

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Thanks for finding that Gavin.

But the problem I have with both of the Fiat 500 and the Panda is their lack of aerodynamics.
The Fiat 500 has a 0.32 cd, which isn't bad for a car of this size (can't have much of an aerodynamic hood/windshield on a wheelbase that short). It is more aerodynamic than the Smart Fortwo, Mini Cooper, Honda Fit, etc.

For comparison to other EVs: Leaf is 0.29, Volt is 0.25, Aptera is 0.15.

However, the total drag should also be a consideration. The Fiat 500 has a smaller drag area than the Leaf for example, so you can't go only by cd.

Also, it is definitely going to be one of the lightest EVs. That will help it in the range/efficiency department.

Still, it is true that this car is better-suited for the cities than the highways. I doubt it would be able to get 100+ miles of range going 80 mph.

Based on your concerns, I would have to say the Volt would be your best option.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Scion xA Cd is 0.31 (though I have mine down to ~0.27)
The Scion/Toyota iQ is 0.29, as is the Yaris hatchback.

It's the trailing shape that matters the most for drag -- the Fiat 500 is too rounded; it would be better with a crisp trailing edge, and with more taper. A smoother underside always helps reduce drag, too.

Check Dave Cloud's Dolphin (elsewhere in this forum) for low drag -- I would not be surprised if it had a Cd similar to the 2e!

[aptera1213]

The Fiat 500ev could very likely have a nice smooth underside. That could shave off a few points.

Gavin

[randyd]

Based on your concerns, I would have to say the Volt would be your best option.:scared0011:

Ugh! Really? But it is not a BEV.

I think I will fantasize about owning a 2e, the Nido EV (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4367) or maybe something else I haven't seen yet.

[evnow]

:scared0011:

Ugh! Really? But it is not a BEV.

I think I will fantasize about owning a 2e, the Nido EV (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4367) or maybe something else I haven't seen yet.

Reliable 100+ highway miles on BEV ? That would have to wait for Model S or Leaf Gen 2.

[NeilBlanchard]

No, I expect the Th!nk City to have a 100-120 mile range -- they may even offer a bigger (than 24kWh) battery pack as an option for even more range?

[SlowSRT4]

:scared0011:

Ugh! Really? But it is not a BEV.

I think I will fantasize about owning a 2e, the Nido EV (http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4367) or maybe something else I haven't seen yet.
Well you have to be realistic. Gas is the only thing that will get you 300 miles of highway range.

I guess the Aptera is the only car for you. ;)

[evnow]

No, I expect the Th!nk City to have a 100-120 mile range -- they may even offer a bigger (than 24kWh) battery pack as an option for even more range?

Think says 160 km in ECE-R101 - which is 100 miles. This will probably be less than 100 miles on highway.

Ofcource they could come up with a longer range battery before S comes out.

[evmavin]

Think says 160 km in ECE-R101 - which is 100 miles. This will probably be less than 100 miles on highway.

Ofcource they could come up with a longer range battery before S comes out.

Depends on the market, there were models with 130 mile range produced. Recently they have been deciding on multiple range options based on cost but there is no reason they can't release a 100 plus solid freeway range model if they desire. I know of a person driving a gen 1 model getting 150 miles on a swapped lithium pack. I believe there was one with a 33kwh pack at one point as well. The model I had used a 10 kwh nicad pack.

[evnow]

Depends on the market, there were models with 130 mile range produced. Recently they have been deciding on multiple range options based on cost but there is no reason they can't release a 100 plus solid freeway range model if they desire. I know of a person driving a gen 1 model getting 150 miles on a swapped lithium pack. I believe there was one with a 33kwh pack at one point as well. The model I had used a 10 kwh nicad pack.

Yes - but doesn't everything get dumbed down & cheapened in the US :(

[evmavin]

Yes - but doesn't everything get dumbed down & cheapened in the US :(


Yes- that's what I meant to say. Dumb and Dumber. Just like noise makers on EVs and warnings on coffee cups. Remember, if your dog chews on your charging cord and gets killed because you locked him in the garage it is the manufacturers responsibility and the cord should have been braided in titanium to prevent that issue.

[SlowSRT4]

Yes - but doesn't everything get dumbed down & cheapened in the US :(
Not anymore. The superior European Ford vehicles in the US? Believe it or not, it is happening. :love0030:
Fiat-branded Fiats in the US? Yup. :love0030:

[RainCaster]

Yet BMW refuses to sell any of their high-mileage vehicles in the US. We will never see a diesel BMW or Mini, and the 100 series can't be found here either. But we do get an SUV! :)

[evnow]

Diesels have a particular problem - the emission standards are tougher in US compared to EU.

BTW, checkout gm-volt today. Volt in EU will get a feature where you can switch EV mode on & off. Not so in US.

http://gm-volt.com/2010/05/24/volts-ev-mode-could-be-manually-delayed-and-triggered-but-not-in-the-us/

[SlowSRT4]

Fifth Gear review of the Fiat 500 1.4L petrol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zpu-5qRSRA



Top Gear review of the Fiat 500 Abarth Esseesse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ



Register to keep updated on the Fiat 500

http://www.CiaoFiat.com/

[NeilBlanchard]

http://gas2.org/2010/07/07/fiat-500-officially-gets-2-cylinder-85-hp-twinair-engine-achieves-50-mpg/#more-8693

[SlowSRT4]

http://gas2.org/2010/07/07/fiat-500-officially-gets-2-cylinder-85-hp-twinair-engine-achieves-50-mpg/#more-8693
85 HP is not bad. I could almost see this engine making its way over here at some point.

By comparison the Smart Fortwo's 1.0 liter 3-cylinder makes 70 HP.

[evnow]

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/28/the-fiat-500-ev-is-coming-to-the-us-if-chrysler-can-convince-dealers-to-sell-it/

..according to Fiatsler’s CEO Sergio Marchionne. the small EV will go on sale in early 2012 for around $32,000. No word yet on whether that is a ‘post-rebate’ figure, but given the price of the standard petrol version…it is.
...
This coming Monday, Chrysler/Fiat has set up a meeting for 600 odd of their finer dealers, trying to convince at least 200 of them that paying several hundred thousand dollars for a separate/unique showroom and having a dedicated sales team is a good thing to do. Did I mention that the 500 is the ONLY car from the brand that will be available in the US? Sergio must be a heck of a salesman.

[NeilBlanchard]

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1050865_chrysler-to-tap-federal-money--this-time-for-green-cars

[palmer_md]

Diesel pusher for only $15,000 adder.


http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/EMAV-PRU-Specs-768x1024.jpg

http://www.emavco.com/

[SlowSRT4]

Batteries now being supplied by SB LiMotive (Bosch + Samsung SDI).

Full press release here:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/11/sb-limotive-batteries-to-power-fiat-500-electric/

Production is still on schedule for 2012, and is not being delayed like certain individuals had already concluded.

[NeilBlanchard]

The Fiat 500 BEV will be the first version sold in the US?

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/19/fiat-500-abarth-coming-to-u-s-all-electric-500-bev/#comments

[palmer_md]

I think they mean that the EV will sell before the Abarth. Everyone is so excited about the Abarth version, they compare everthing to it. The 500 Ice is first, the 500 convertable is second the EV is third and then the Abarth. Nothing new other than the EV is before the Abarth which did not have a slot set before today.

No date has been confirmed, but we've been told that the launch of all 500 models will be staggered and the Abarth is last in the queue.

[SlowSRT4]

The Fiat 500 BEV will be the first version sold in the US?

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/19/fiat-500-abarth-coming-to-u-s-all-electric-500-bev/#comments
Dang it Neil. I knew full well that the EV couldn't possibly be launching in two months and yet I still got excited when I read your post. I should have known better than to trust your reading comprehension. :tongue0006:

[NeilBlanchard]

Well, the title of the ABG post says the BEV is first. The article is vague -- it just says the Arbath is last; and the BEV in 2012.

[SlowSRT4]

Well, the title of the ABG post says the BEV is first. The article is vague -- it just says the Arbath is last; and the BEV in 2012.
Yeah, I know. Still funny though. :D

[JustWilliam]

I'm officially "down" with the 500.

I might as well confess right now- I'm "seeing" another forum. I know it's sudden, and I never intended to hurt anyone, but I think it could amount to something meaningful. It isn't you- it's me. Me and that heart-breaker Aptera.

Try not to judge me too harshly. We can all still be friends and hang out.

Peace,
William

[NeilBlanchard]

William, is there a Fiat 500 EV forum? Can you post a link, please?

[SlowSRT4]

William, is there a Fiat 500 EV forum? Can you post a link, please?
Nothing quite that exciting as a dedicated 500 EV forum I'm afraid. There is a small forum on www.fiat500usa.com which is mostly discussing the new models coming out soon (Prima Edizione, Pop, Sport, Lounge) as opposed to the EV.

There is an international 500fans.com website. Also there is a general Fiat-Lancia club forum http://fluforum.italiancarclub.com/

That seems to be about it right now. Fiat500forum.com is currently just an apache test page right now. I wonder if someone will end up making a forum on that domain.

[evmavin]

It's run by the same owner of mynissanleaf.com

[SlowSRT4]

It's run by the same owner of mynissanleaf.com
What is?...

[evmavin]

500 ev forum

[evmavin]

This forum should be changed form the aptera forum to something more generic. It's about 1% of the topic.

[SlowSRT4]

500 ev forum
Could you possibly post a link? A google search turned up nothing of interest.

[JustWilliam]

William, is there a Fiat 500 EV forum? Can you post a link, please?
Here's the easiest link http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/p/fiat500usa-forum.html

As SRT4 said, the forum IS incredibly small and basic. Not much in the way of technical discussion, or of the 500 EV yet. But it's encouraging and exciting to chat with reservation holders and early adopters about a vehicle that we can actually purchase soon, because it's already in early production. And seeing Gavin and SRT4 there was very cool.

There is an early edition of the Fiat 500 "configurator" online at http://www.fiatusa.com/en/build_your_own.html

I love what I see- a great city car for a great price. I have my fingers crossed that it will offer better efficiency than a MINI or smart, along with satisfying driving dynamics. And it's great to know I'll have that information SOON.

I think this thread could see it's fair share of activity between now and 2012.

Peace,
William

[JustWilliam]

This forum should be changed form the aptera forum to something more generic. It's about 1% of the topic.
That idea deserves it's own thread and poll. For SO many reasons. The primary one being relevance, and this forum and it's mods have more of it than Aptera itself.

It'd probably be the hottest Aptera specific topic since the X Prize. I know I'm in.

Peace,
William

[PatQ562]

But it's encouraging and exciting to chat with reservation holders and early adopters about a vehicle that we can actually purchase soon, because it's already in early production.
As charming as the Fiat may be, all the talk is about the ICE version.
Pat Q

[SlowSRT4]

As charming as the Fiat may be, all the talk is about the ICE version.
Pat Q
That's to be expected on a general 500 forum. Especially considering the EV isn't due out for a while yet.

[PatQ562]

Especially considering the EV isn't due out for a while yet.
My point exactly.
Pat Q

[JustWilliam]

As charming as the Fiat may be, all the talk is about the ICE version.
Pat Q
Silly me. I keep forgetting that a majority of forum members have little to no interest in light, efficient, emotional vehicles unless they're pure EVs. My bad.

Peace,
William

[PatQ562]

Well actually there is a lot of interest in the Fiat 500, for the reasons cited, but mostly as a prelude to the hoped-for EV version. We'll have to see how its gas mileage compares. If burning gas is OK, it's hard to beat the boring Prius. I've never driven the original Honda Insight - it's too bad they retired that platform without updating it to the improved motor pack used in the Civic Hybrids, which are somewhat fun to drive. Dropping that motor into the 25% lighter Insight would make it quite spirited.

But after all, this is an electric car forum focused on Aptera (for what little that's worth these days).

Pat Q

[lapwing]

..........I've never driven the original Honda Insight - it's too bad they retired that platform without updating it to the improved motor pack used in the Civic Hybrids, which are somewhat fun to drive. Dropping that motor into the 25% lighter Insight would make it quite spirited.

But after all, this is an electric car forum focused on Aptera (for what little that's worth these days).

Pat Q

I nearly purchaced an Original Honda Insight - it was my first choice over a Prius. However, it was suddenly discontinued, and the last few snapped up before I could get one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight#First_generation_.282000.E2.80.93200 6.29

It is really very civilized to drive, though the rear suspension is way to soft for my taste. I would have snapped up an all electric version of this vehicle were it available. I have seen a couple of EV conversions of the vehicle, and it makes a great starting point for a light two seater EV. It would take very little for Honda to get an EV version of it with a 150 mile range, on the road, but Honda's manned by a bunch of "petrol-heads", so it will never happen. Some enterprising individuals made it happen anyway!

http://ev.whitecape.org/insight/

http://www.99mpg.com/Projectcars/mikesinsight

The Audi A2 was another all aluminum vehicle, which would easily compete with the Nissan Leaf were it EV'd. I drove one in Europe for a few weeks, and it was a little lightweight sub 1000kg screamer!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_A2

http://groups.google.com/group/audia2ev/web/home

[aptera1213]

I'm expecting 35 city, 45 highway...so less than the Prius, but tons more fun to drive and way better looking... :) If they have a stop/start version, 40 city, 45 highway.

It will be a short term car for me...2, maybe 3 years...then replaced with likely an EV 500...though I will see what is around in EV form at that time. The Honda Fit EV is appealing too.

I won't be putting too many miles on the Fiat 500 anyways. I will still be riding my bicycle in the summer and my scooters the other times...and I will be getting an Electric Motorcycle soonish (#19 reservation holder for a Brammo Enertia Plus), so as soon as they make them I will buy that 100%...on a side note: I'm tired of having reservations and then not buying---Aptera for obvious reasons--nothing to buy sadly...My LEAF reservation, well I haven't given up totally on that. It is a nice car and most importantly ELECTRIC, just not the car I want. I want small...nimble...city car.

Almost 100% have decided to go Fiat 500 for a couple of years and then EV 500...but the LEAF is getting killer reviews...And part of me still feels that we have to support any Electric cars we can or they will be held back.

But at least a electric motorcycle this coming year (hopefully spring, worse case summer)...The company actually does sell product and I do think they will have the newest model out as planned. With a range of 80 miles and a top speed over 60 mph, it will fit my daily needs quite well.

I could even hold off on the Fiat 500 and go carless another year (been over 5 years, one more wouldn't be too hard) and get the Fiat EV when it comes in 2012...but I have a fear that the EV 500 will be late 2012 at best...EVs tend to get delayed.

Plus owning a fiat 500 for a couple of years will let me know if I want to get an EV in that form from that company...and since I plan to keep any EV I get till I am old and gray (or older and grayer :) ) well I would like to do it right.

Dang I ramble....

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Well actually there is a lot of interest in the Fiat 500, for the reasons cited, but mostly as a prelude to the hoped-for EV version. We'll have to see how its gas mileage compares. If burning gas is OK, it's hard to beat the boring Prius. There are no EPA numbers for the Fiat 500 yet, but it should do fairly well. The 500 starts at $16,250 compared to the Prius that starts at $23,560. The Ford Fiesta, that achieves a respectable 32 mpg, starts at $13,995.

Either the Fiat 500 or Ford Fiesta would also have lower maintenance costs than the Prius and less costly insurance. I would say there is at least an equally compelling argument for these cars from an efficiency/economy standpoint as there is for the Prius.

Also, some of us on the forum are waiting on more EVs (or specific EVs) to hit the market in the 2012 timeframe, subsequently with increased competition among car companies in the marketplace. From a certain standpoint, if the 500 seems more appealing than the Leaf, it makes sense to buy a 2012 Fiat 500 in February, and then trade up to an EV in 2012.

However, all of us on this forum do want to encourage EV development, but that doesn't mean we have to buy the first EV available necessarily. The Nissan Leaf already has a tremendous marketing campaign, and it will sell every unit produced in 2011. Less mainstream cars like the 500 might need some help getting a foothold as well. So I am content to be waiting until 2012 for a Fiat 500 EV. :)

I should clarify that I'm not completely decided on the Fiat 500 EV, and I do have an open Leaf reservation. But, ideally, I want to have a very efficient and practical A-segment EV. From the information I've gathered, the Fiat 500 EV seems to fit that bill the best, for the time being anyway.

[NeilBlanchard]

Why would the maintenance costs of a Prius be higher than the other cars?

[SlowSRT4]

Why would the maintenance costs of a Prius be higher than the other cars?
Could be more expensive components or more complicated work due to the hybrid drivetrain. I'm not exactly sure.

I get my information from Edmunds True Cost to Own:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/toyota/prius/101161780/cto.html?setzip=48071&vdp=off
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2011/ford/fiesta/101216523/cto.html?setzip=48071&vdp=off

The Prius has higher maintenance costs, and has a higher True Cost to Own than the Fiesta, despite the lower fuel costs from its higher fuel economy.

[JustWilliam]

Well actually there is a lot of interest in the Fiat 500, for the reasons cited, but mostly as a prelude to the hoped-for EV version. We'll have to see how its gas mileage compares. If burning gas is OK, it's hard to beat the boring Prius. I've never driven the original Honda Insight - it's too bad they retired that platform without updating it to the improved motor pack used in the Civic Hybrids, which are somewhat fun to drive. Dropping that motor into the 25% lighter Insight would make it quite spirited.

But after all, this is an electric car forum focused on Aptera (for what little that's worth these days).

Pat Q
Sorry Pat, but did I miss a poll or forum announcement? When did we become a generalized electric car forum that is merely "focused" on Aptera?

When I joined The Aptera Forum, both a hybrid 2h and a ICE 2g were very much part of the product plan. Neither this forum nor Aptera itself was an "EV only" proposition at their inception.

Due to Aptera's waning relevance, the "off topic" threads keep this forum alive. If even these threads must adhere to the concept that we are just another "electric car forum", I'm disappointed.

At least a few of us are genuinely excited about the Fiat 500 even with an ICE. For the merely curious, here are some interesting links to Fiat's engine technologies, which offer great efficiency and ultra-low carbon emissions-

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/30/fiat-all-automakers-will-eventually-adopt-efficiency-boosting-m/
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/11/28/fiat-multiair-captures-popular-science-best-of-whats-new-awar/
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/fiat_s_multiair_valve-lift_system_explained-tech_dept

I don't want to offend you Pat, or any other member. But I don't feel that sharing information on the 500 should be considered inappropriate or contemptible.

Peace,
William

[PatQ562]

Sorry Pat, but did I miss a poll or forum announcement? When did we become a generalized electric car forum that is merely "focused" on Aptera?
You're right, of course, this is still "the Unofficial Aptera Car Forum". But there's been so little going on at Aptera, for so long now, that we spend something like 99% of our time talking about other matters, 98% of which relates to EV's, 97% of which relates to BEV's, so it FEELS like an EV forum that is waiting for Aptera to amount to something. You are also correct in noting that some of the "regulars" are waiting for the hybrid Aptera, but they must be even more discouraged.
The underlying theme I detect in the most frequent posts is a burning desire for a dramatic leap forward in efficiency and reduced carbon footprint. A small, light BEV seems like the most elegant solution, but you are further correct that many "regulars" would be interested in dramatic improvements in heat-engine efficiency.
Pat Q

[motornature]

You're right, of course, this is still "the Unofficial Aptera Car Forum". But there's been so little going on at Aptera, for so long now, that we spend something like 99% of our time talking about other matters, 98% of which relates to EV's, 97% of which relates to BEV's, so it FEELS like an EV forum that is waiting for Aptera to amount to something. You are also correct in noting that some of the "regulars" are waiting for the hybrid Aptera, but they must be even more discouraged.
The underlying theme I detect in the most frequent posts is a burning desire for a dramatic leap forward in efficiency and reduced carbon footprint. A small, light BEV seems like the most elegant solution, but you are further correct that many "regulars" would be interested in dramatic improvements in heat-engine efficiency.
Pat Q

I came here because I was looking for more information about the Aptera, but there's not much news about it, so I guess there's nothing wrong talking about other cars while we wait.

[wcabdefense]

Wow. Novitec seems to have tweaked the 1.4L Fiat 500 to 212hp. I think that is just about the Websters definition of a Pocket Rocket. I mean, it is not Viper fast, but it is also not Viper expensive.

It would give you hope that perhaps the lower weight would facilitate some battery options like Myers Motors/Tesla are planning to offer. Why not offer Battery options in 2012, just like ICE manufacturers do with 2.8L/3.5L/5L engines?

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/fiat/2010-fiat-500-abarth-by-novitec-ar100955.html

[SlowSRT4]

Wow. Novitec seems to have tweaked the 1.4L Fiat 500 to 212hp. I think that is just about the Websters definition of a Pocket Rocket. I mean, it is not Viper fast, but it is also not Viper expensive.

It would give you hope that perhaps the lower weight would facilitate some battery options like Myers Motors/Tesla are planning to offer. Why not offer Battery options in 2012, just like ICE manufacturers do with 2.8L/3.5L/5L engines?

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/fiat/2010-fiat-500-abarth-by-novitec-ar100955.html
According to this:
http://fiat500usa.blogspot.com/2010/01/us-fiat-500-abarthhow-much-horsepower.html

The Abarth may have 170 hp and 170 lbs-ft torque out of the factory.


Different battery pack options probably won't be available for the Fiat 500. It seems like 100 miles of range is about the minimum for an all-around EV (EVs with lower top speeds and intended only for city use can probably make do with less). Nissan, Ford, and Fiat are all targeting 100 miles so far.

I'm sure they simply don't want the complexity or inconsistency of offering lower range packs. They probably have studies that show that a majority of consumers expect this type of range from an EV. Similar to how gas cars tend to target 300 miles of range (the US Fiat 500 has an upgraded 10.5 gallon gas tank for this reason). If they are shooting for larger volumes, they can safely ignore the market that would be interested in lower ranges.

Also, keep in mind that the 100 mile pack would eventually degrade to 60 miles, then to 40 miles, etc. I think I would rather have the buffer so that I could continue to use the pack for many years (over 10) and still have a useable range.

[PatQ562]

There might, however, be a market for a "boosted" battery, at commensurately boosted prices. Choices of 100, 150, or even 200 mile ranges would be interesting. However, it IS more work for the manufacturer.
Pat

[SlowSRT4]

There might, however, be a market for a "boosted" battery, at commensurately boosted prices. Choices of 100, 150, or even 200 mile ranges would be interesting. However, it IS more work for the manufacturer.
Pat
That seems the more likely scenario to me. Tesla is offering 160, 230, and 300 mile packs for the Model S. Along with a 45-minute quick charge and 1-minute battery swap capability.

But I think there is probably a limit to how many batteries you can cram underneath the floor of a Fiat, and adding weight will make it slower to accelerate, less efficient. I have a feeling they will stick to the "one-size-fits-all" 100 mile range pack.

[PatQ562]

One possibility is to offer a more advanced battery, of the same size, with higher performance at higher cost. The "old" battery may even come down in price. This offers new value to an old platform as the years go by. Otherwise, you're basically right about having a limited space to fill.

Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

This is not the 500 EV, but it is the standard 500:

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1051700_2010-los-angeles-auto-show-2012-fiat-500-minicar-unveiled

[JustWilliam]

Thanks Neil- That's a great overview article.

[SlowSRT4]

They are wrong about the Fiat 500 being smaller than a subcompact. In the US, a minicompact or micro car would be the Smart Fortwo (I don't know of any others). The Ford Fiesta, Mini Cooper, and Fiat 500 are all subcompacts. Above that are the compacts such as the Chevrolet Cobalt and VW Golf.

[palmer_md]

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?rssid=26366

http://www.evworld.com/press/fiat_500EV_gadhafiRebels.jpg

[SEGsby]

161 miles per charge? That's better than the fatS0-1!


http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?rssid=26366

http://www.evworld.com/press/fiat_500EV_gadhafiRebels.jpg

[palmer_md]

161 miles per charge? That's better than the fatS0-1!

yep, but they still had to push it the rest of the way home....haha. Must have been a Top Gear test.

[palmer_md]

its not an electric, but this certainly does not help the brand break free from its historical reputation....

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/jennifer-lopez-fiat-breakdown-875312

[NeilBlanchard]

CEO Sergio Marchionne Confirms 2012 Production of Electric Fiat 500 (http://www.plugincars.com/ceo-sergio-marchionne-confirms-2012-production-electric-fiat-500-112054.html)