My dad's criticisms

[butter]

My dad is an aerospace engineer. He's got a doctorate in physics and EE from CMU. He's old. And he's still working.

So, like.. I told him about the Aptera and today I showed him the link to the ABC news report on it (posted earlier today in the "video" section).

Now, I would like to add that he was also one of the people very interested in GM's little EV car -- he was *this* close, but didn't end up leasing one. So he holds a healthy dose of practicality and caution. I can't fault him for it. He has been successful in his career from hard work and planning and smarts, and generally isn't a big risk-taker.

Having told you all that -- and please, I really don't want to hear people saying mean things about him because he *is* my dad and I do love and respect him a lot, so I just ask you all to be gentle, okay? -- this is what he emailed me after seeing the little news bit on the Aptera (and mind you he has *not* been exposed to any other source of info on Aptera other than that short but fairly thorough video):

*********
The first question I would ask is what's special about this car? That is:
what's its innovation? You can get very high mileage from a small electric
car/motor cycle, and good top speed if it has high gear ratio. But what's
its range, horse power, maximum load...? How long a warranty does it carry
for its battery? Who can service this car? What safety features does it have
- airbags?....

Basically I would rate it as a "toy" for people who can afford a second car.
It can not replace one's primary car as a reliable transportation vehicle.

I would wait for a major car manufacturer to make the next-generation
electric, hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell cars.

************
So yes he is somewhat of a naysayer, not a *basher* at all -- but as someone who is not only his daughter but an Aptera lover, I will say he is simply trying to play it safe and not letting the excitement and hype blind his senses. And it's not like anything he says is wrong, right?

Also, as evidenced by the questions he brought up, he doesn't actually know all the facts on the Aptera (i.e., the airbags issue) -- and I haven't really talked to him about this at all, so it's possible that if I actually explained more of the confirmed details of Aptera, his impression will change slightly. I will probably do that later.

But the point of this is to ask you guys if there's anything I can really say to all the other things he's said (not the stuff I can answer with info straight from Aptera's website). NOTHING DUMB OR RUDE, of course. I'm not looking for retorts but actual you know.. CONVINCING points to make. I suspect there aren't really any, because nothing he says is straight-up irrational.

Right?

Signed,
a daughter who loves her safe-playing dad

[MarrInLA]

Most of the answers ARE on the site or in videos on YouTube.
They will be setting up service sites in So Cal, that's why they're
starting "local", then branching out ot No Cal. Does have airbags,
passenger side can be turned off when a baby seat is in place, tho
also room for baby seat behinf/between front seats. Cargo room for
15 grocery bags or 2 golf bags but don't know weight maximum tho
I presume, the average weight of those items would make sense!
And since it can handle a 6ft tall person, I would assume with driver
& passenger it can handle 400 lbs or so. I LOVE that they are using
recycled plastic material for the interior! Both models sound brilliant--
like the answer to what we need in this country! I'm VERY excited
about it & commend Jason & Steve for their work.

[butter]

Okay.. I guess I kind of panicked at first sight of his email response. It's my dad, after all, I'm kind of sensitive to his criticisms... but I also know that he tends to play devil's advocate -- I mean why not, right? Why not play it safe, get your questions answered, and then take the plunge.

I guess I need to explain all that stuff to him before I post any more of his emailed questions, heh. sorry...

I just hope I can erase his strong impression that this is a toy for people who can afford to drop $30k (cause that's not me, for sure).

[futura]

butter,

First of all, he's your Dad. Some of his reaction can be chalked up to his concern for your well-being and the role he has probably had to assume as the "practical voice of reason" in the family. My Dad was also an aerospace engineer and I can think of so many features of the Aptera he would appreciate from an "conservative Dad" POV as well as an engineering one.
Here's three off the top of my head.
(1) It's super aero; doesn't waste all that energy pushing air.
(2) It's super strong; but built of lightweight 'aerospace' composite; doesn't waste all that energy pushing iron.
(3) It's made in the USA; right here in SoCal (won't come with a "Made in China" sticker)

These points may or may not appeal to his "conservative, inner-geek" but you might consider this an opportunity to engage him with something you both can be excited about. I'm just guessing (from your previous posts) you and he are quite different :rolleyes: Maybe with the Aptera there's more in common than it first seems.
Cheers.

[Matthijs]

Basically I would rate it as a "toy" for people who can afford a second car.
It can not replace one's primary car as a reliable transportation vehicle.

I would wait for a major car manufacturer to make the next-generation
electric, hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell cars.
I can understand that someone who are always on the safe side can be pretty skeptical about the Aptera. But how can he come up with this two conclusions just by watching the video? There are allot of different people with different needs and lifestyles. For me the Aptera would be a great primary car and I would not rate it as a toy but as the way cars should always have been build.

And for him waiting for the major car manufacturers to build something he would want to buy? I think he is up for a long wait. In my opinion it's gonna be the new small car makers that will make a difference on vehicle design and introducing EV's to market.

I would like to see his opinion on the Aptera as an engineer. And maybe he could explain how he based his opinion on the Aptera. Maybe his opinions will change overtime, like to see an update on it. :)

[KarenRei]

My response ot your father:

The first question I would ask is what's special about this car? That is:
what's its innovation?

I find it odd that he had to ask this, given that just looking at it, you can tell that it's light and has extremely low drag.

You can get very high mileage from a small electric
car/motor cycle

If by "small electric car" he means NEV, then this is in a whole different ballpark. This is a 120-mile range, 85+mph, 0-60 in <10 second car rated for highway driving, not a cramped go-cart mocked up to look like a car.

An electric motorcycle like the Vectrix will cost you half as much but not use any less power, leave you exposed to rain, only carry one person comfortably, not be nearly as safe, not let you carry any cargo, and so on. All of the usual reasons why people choose cars over motorcycles. Also, the Vectrix has a slower top speed (~60mph) and a range of 68 miles at a mere 25mph. Aptera can best that range at 85mph.

But what's its range, horse power, maximum load...?

* 120 miles range at 55mph, 70 miles range at 85mph.
* Horsepower does not apply to EVs in the same way it does to regular cars because of the broader range of maximum torque; you get more "oomph" out of an electric motor with a given amount of horsepower than you do from a gas or diesel engine with the same horsepower. The best way to compare gas vs. electric vehicles is to look at performance stats. The Aptera does 0-60 in less than ten seconds, which is better than average for an economy car. Not sports car performance, but it'll certainly feel quite responsive.
* Maximum load stats have not been published. From the descriptions of what you can carry in the trunk, I can't picture it handling any less than two full grown adults and a hundred pounds of cargo. Certainly, they're nowhere near the limits of what the tires (the same ones on the Insight) can carry.

How long a warranty does it carry for its battery?

The battery manufacturer has not been selected yet (a couple are in competition, as of the last releases on the subject). However, it is known that they're using lithium phosphate. Probably the most famous lithium phosphate battery manufacturer, A123, rates their automotive batteries for 10+ years and 7000+ cycles, although I've seem some analysis that suggests 15 years of typical use should only see a 20% loss in charge capacity.

Specifics will come out later, but there's ample reason to think this will not be a problem.

Who can service this car?

Major service needs to be done by Aptera. It is likely (although I haven't seen verification on this yet -- anyone have any?) that minor service should be able to be done by a normal mechanic -- things like the brake pads, tires, belt, and so on are just normal car parts, nothing special about them.

Note that unlike a gasoline car, there is little need for "regular service". There are no fluids that need changing periodically or anything of that nature. You just need to make sure that your brake pads are still good (for the front wheels only; the rear wheel uses a regenerative brake instead of disk brakes) and that your tires aren't getting bare.

What safety features does it have - airbags?....

In-seat airbags (like used on small planes; they don't explode toward you, but upwards so that they take up the space between you and the dash), side airbags, a F1-style safety cage that exceeds most car safety standards by several times over, very long crumple/deflection zones (deflection aided by the vehicle's light weight), and traction control. AFAIK, ABS hasn't been announced yet, but it would be very surprising if they didn't do ABS with the rear regenerative brake, as that's incredibly easy to accomplish.

Basically I would rate it as a "toy" for people who can afford a second car.

Well, that's quite a strong opinion to have for a person who just had to ask all of those questions, now isn't it?

It can not replace one's primary car as a reliable transportation vehicle.

And the reason for that is...? It goes the range I need, as fast as I need, charges as as quickly as I need, carries all I need... it can't meet my needs why? I'm not supposed to like paying half a penny per mile why? I'm not supposed to like almost no maintenance why? I'm not supposed to enjoy never having to stop at a gas station again why? I'm not supposed to like emitting only a small fraction of the greenhouse gasses and other pollutants (by charging) why?

I would wait for a major car manufacturer to make the next-generation electric, hybrid or hydrogen fuel cell cars.

The fact that you just lumped them all together as though there is no difference reveals that you have much to learn on the subject. Fuel cells, for example, are *not* environmentally friendly, while electric vehicles are very environmentally friendly, and hybrids are what we already have (excepting PHEVs/E-REVs, like the Typ-1h). If you wish to learn more about this, just ask.

Small vehicle manufacturers are not as good in volume production, certainly, but they benefit from faster turnaround times and the ability to take more risk. I find it sad that an aerospace engineer would denigrate the huge contributions that small engineering companies have made to the US throughout its history.

[LQUAN]

butter,

Like your dad, I am, too, a bit skeptical of Aptera. I am an engineer in many fields (electronics, mechanical, software programmer, etc.). I also build large scale RC aerobatic aircrafts as a hobby. It is not that I cannot afford to plunk down $27K for a car that has not yet been tested by the puplic. We all learned not to buy the first product of its kind or any kind. I am skeptical enough that I have not yet put in the deposit for a Type1e. However, I love the design and apperance of Aptera. I also admire Steve and his vision. Because I am, too, very environmentally concious. That is the reason why I am staying close to this forum and any other news regarding Aptera. Everybody on this forum knows that Steve is reading our comments and suggestions very closely. Perhaps, your dad should join us on this forum and share his concerns with Steve and all of us.

If Aptera ever let us test drive before buying, I'll be one of the first in line.

Despite being an engineer, my concern is not in the reliability and driving range of Aptera. The car seems simple enough not to inherit similar problems to cars with internal combustion engines. It has far less components to fail often. The concept of electric car and teardrop body shape are not new - they have been around for at least 60 years. My concern is how the car handles the road and how much effort it takes to drive it compare to my current car (Toyota Matrix). Aptera does not have power steering and power brake; therefore, in an emergency situation it would take more effort to quickly maneuver it out from a potential accident. For my wife who does not have a lot of muscles, this can be a safety problem for her.

[butter]

Well, I emailed him back, plagiarizing about 99% of KarenRei's itemized responses. Thanks, Karen!

And thanks to everyone else who responded. I appreciate all of your support and understanding. I swear, I don't know what I'd do without this forum.

[Apteratude]

Came in late on this one. I'll just say that while I find it hard to make logical sense out of buying the Aptera which I have a deposit on, vs. a toyota Yaris, I don't make this decision logically. I'm simply sending a message to the world that I'm not putting up with oil dependancy. That I don't want the wars we fight to be about oil supplies and the steady flow of it. Energy independence will make us a stronger superpower.

We know electric makes sense to all of us, the technology exists, and only large automakers/oil companies stand in our way.(Quite large hurdles). I'm willing to make sacrafices, both financial and with my time, should there be any reliability/quality issues with the Aptera. I'm fed up, and with the CARB appearing to be backing down from some of their previous goals and regulations to their previous ZEV ambitions, the future of the electric vehicle really is in our hands, as in those of us who have committed to buy one.

Maybe something like the Aptera will be mass produced by Detroit or Japan in subsequent years, and for much less hopefully. But until then, the Aptera is the best choice available.

[GunnyD]

Butter,

Picture the same conversation from the days when people just knew that those infernal contraptions will NEVER replace the horse.

[KarenRei]

Well, of course.

* Automobiles have to be cranked to be started up. With a horse, you just get up and ride off.
* Automobiles can only go a hundred or so miles, and then they need more gasoline. Apart from major cities, where are you supposed to get it? It's not like they can haul it up to every little town in New York, let alone places like Montana! Horses can eat oats or just graze almost everywhere in the country.
* How could we possibly picture every American driving an auto? We've put oil wells in every place in Pennsylvania where the oil used to bubble to the surface; it's being produced as fast as possible. There's simply not enough oil in the world for everyone to drive.
* Given a good-sized hill, an auto will stall and even roll backwards! Since when have you seen any healthy horse that couldn't make it up a hill?
* A new car costs well more than a horse. How are poor farmers supposed to afford them?
* Autos will never survive those muddy dirt roads that exist everywhere except in cities. Horses won't get stuck in the mud, but autos certainly can! Heaven forbid trying to drive across the country in one.

Basically I would rate the automobile as a "toy" for the well-to-do who can afford to spend that kind of money on a runabout.
It can not replace a horse as a reliable transportation vehicle.

[basjoos]

Not totally accurate, for the early electric cars, you just got in, flipped a switch and were off (also had to check the electrolyte levels in the batteries every few recharge cycles). On early gasoline cars you had to prime the cylinders, pump up the fuel line pressure, set the ignition and choke, and then crank it up (while making sure the crank didn't kick back and break your fingers) and then adjust the ignition and choke after the engine got started. Figure at least 10 minutes before you were rolling. Early steam cars were just as complicated. You had to fill the boiler with water, pressurize the fuel line(s), start the burner (kind of like starting a Coleman camp stove), and wait for the steam pressure to build. This whole process would take over 30 min.
As for the horse, you had to catch it first, get a bridle on its head (and the bit into its usually uncooperative mouth), then either saddle it (while playing more games with the horse to make sure the cinch is tight) or put a harness on it and hitch it to the wagon. And then repeat the process if you had more than one horse in the wagon team. Figure 10 to 30 minutes depending on your rig.

In the days before Standard Oil, you went to the local chemist's shop to buy gasoline and hoped that the blend they sold you would work in your car's engine. Also you had to call ahead and make sure that the chemists along your route stocked gasoline (which many didn't).

Early steam cars had no problem climbing hills, the early gasoline cars and electrics had problems on steep uphills.

In the early days of automobiles, you either had to be a mechanic or take a mechanic along with you to fix the car for WHEN (not IF) it broke down or you got a flat (you carried at least 2 spare tires with you).

In the early days when only the wealthy could afford cars and with the unpaved roads of the day, some enterprising farmers used to augment their income at the wealthy folk's expense by dumping a wagon load of water on a low laying section of road. Then when an automobile came by and got stuck in the quagmire, they would just happen to be nearby with a team of horses to pull them out of the mud after the payment of a fee.

[futura]

Jeez you just reminded me about hand cranking.
I had a 1950 MGTD that I restored from the frame up when I was 17.
It had a crank (kept behind the seat) and one day when the starter was out I tried and failed to start it. Called my Dad (at work) who explained to me the technique...key ON, handbrake ON, choke SET, insert handle, rotate slowly downward clockwise and then pull UP quickly making sure thumb is NOT gripping handle otherwise if engine backfires you risk breaking thumb, breaking wrist, getting thrown in ditch..or all three! Good times.
(BTW, it started just fine with these directions).

Cheers.

[davidrools]

he lost me at "fuel cell." Not only are those so far from being economically marketable (they cost about $1M each now!) there's no way that hydrogen infrastructure will be available anytime soon. Also hydrogen doesn't store well and won't even give you as much range as a typ-1e. And if you park for a few days all your hydrogen will have vented off and you'll have an empty tank. Sorry but I have a bit of a gripe against the promise of fuel cells as a practical alternative. They're really just electric cars with a hydrogen tank and fuel cell instead of a battery. They "work" but they don't really work.

[Brav]

The car speaks for itself. We will not ever have "overnight" progress with any vehicle, but this one is a large leap in the right direction. It definitely is not a replacement car for everyone, would have to be a 2nd car for most. Those that can afford to have a 2nd car like this are ones that are in support of not only the car, but the concept and proponents of the cause. With many once before ignorant Americans frowning on such "abnormal" cars ( I get this all the time, I have been driving a Smart for the last 2 years) people will be more likely to try new things. Especially and gas-crunch time. The more people see these things on the road, the more accepting they will be. It takes A LOT of work and effort to start a new auto company like this, especially in the US. Its no easy task! They really should be commended to be able to bring such innovation to the table, at a relatively affordable price, all while conforming or vastly exceeding saftety standards.

There will always be critics, and there should be. Again, it is not the cure-all, end all vehicle. There are compromises as in anything else, but there is nothing else like it. Its a huge leap.

[wpatters]

Lots of snip
============================
My concern is how the car handles the road and how much effort it takes to drive it compare to my current car (Toyota Matrix). Aptera does not have power steering and power brake; therefore, in an emergency situation it would take more effort to quickly maneuver it out from a potential accident. For my wife who does not have a lot of muscles, this can be a safety problem for her.[/QUOTE]
=============================
It is my humble opinion that power steering is needed for parking heavier vehicles. The light weight of the Aptera should allow us to turn the wheel at low speed. High speed handling shouldn't be compromised.

As an engineer myself, simplicity and lightness always trumps having to include unnecessary equipment.

I do admit that a test is always better than anyones theory.

Bill Patterson

[Aptera 1103]

With the low weight of the car you would not want or need power steering or brakes. Our MG does not have them, nor does it need them. Power steering would only take away the feel you get when steering.:cool:

[LQUAN]

My 1979 2-door Honda CVC back in the golden days of school weighted about 1600lbs. It has powered brake but didn't have power steering. And it was a pain in the butt to squeeze in any tiny curb side space I could fortunately find at night in downtown Los Angeles. I am sure its body was much narrower that Aptera but still required some effort to steer the wheel in right hand turn at city speed. I imagine wider car will require more effort to make right hand turn in the city. I could be wrong. Like you said we must test drive it to be sure. :)

[butter]

Update on my dad and his attitude towards the Aptera:

So initially I posted this thread to show you guys the response my dad wrote me in an email about the Aptera. In his defense, all I mentioned to him was a link to a local news channel's short video clip, and in my original post you saw all the questions he had.

Then KarenRei offered an amazing point-by-point reply, which I plagiarized nearly in full in my email response to my dad.

After that, I didn't hear anything (but also keep in mind I don't talk to my parents very much).

So today I saw them and they talked about the Aptera like it was a certainty in my future -- it wasn't an "if" anymore, it was a straight-up "when are they letting us test-drive it?"

LOVE IT!!

All my thanks go to KarenRei, I must say, for helping arm me with FACTS, not heart-tugging opinions, to win over my parents.

Drooling at the chance to test-drive...
Butter

[gg222]

He better not have a lower number than me. :mad: :D

[butter]

He better not have a lower number than me. :mad: :D

He's not in line for one -- I just like having my parents' support (and, really, approval) in life in general.

But I'm in line -- AND I'M AHEAD OF YOU! MWAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA!

(Can't say you weren't asking for it...)

p.s. Plus, I'm in Southern California and I'm in it 100% for the all-electric. I see you are in Novato and are, at least for the moment, into the hybrid.

That means... [DELETED due to increasing obnoxiousness]

[KarenRei]

Glad to help :)

[gg222]

Watch it Butter...I know what forum you hang around. :D

[swinti]

Dear APTERA Community

I’m also dad of two adults and my age is almost 63. During my life I gained experience as a ship diesel engine engineer, professional helicopter instructor and then as a industrial consultant in company culture (Ph. D. in human behaviour) and last but not least as the CEO of an all terrain vehicle builder.
66
For better understanding of my position about APTERA, I have to confirm, that I was in the board of several ventures companies and maybe I know a little bit about people like the ones at APTERA. I know by experience about all the problems they have to solve and all the difficulties they face, including all the fan-post from people who never can afford their product.

What do I think about APTERA?
FACTS:
• The traditional car industry (specially the US) failed to develop a green car.
• Energy is still to cheap
• Most of the world leaders are irresponsible
• Bankers are not capable to understand entrepreneurs
• As a real inventor you have all the realists with money against you
• Nice hands are coming from enthusiast, most of them without money
• Hundreds of ventures like APTERA failed and ended in bankruptcy
DREAMS:
• I hope that APTERA is not a dreaming team
• This type of a vehicle is more than needed, but it should come from VW, Toyota, Citroen or even GM or Ford.
• The third world needs green cars to start mobility
• The technology what APTERA needs is existing, but the body type is not the technology for a large serial production.
REALITY:
Unfortunately I believe that
• APTERA will never have a real breakthrough
• most of the enthusiasts will never even test-drive an APTERA
• the investors will loose their money
• this wonderful project will end up like many others, as a nice dream
• The US government prefers to finance the war-industry instead of peaceful projects like the APTERA.
FUTURE:
• One day the word will drive cars like the APTERA or this
67
• All the inventors of the past will see, how the sharks are eating up the small fishes
• Our grandkids will pay the open bills of my foolish generation

Never the less, I would like to buy some APTERA cars* and even more, I would like to manage and finance the APTERA dealership in Switzerland. Why? Switzerland has the quality streets, the technology base for the maintenance, the money and a lot of people who are green minded and already driving or waiting for an industrial made car like the APTERA and Switzerland is the traditional testmarket for any car importer to Europe. Best conditions for a successful start-up.

* What some people called SPAM is, that I would like that all the sales people of the innovative SWINTI FUSS-FIT (a prophylactic gel product for the feet’s of sportsman and hard walking people) would drive an advertising APTERA.

[garygid]

While it is likely true that some on the waiting list will
not actually buy the reserved "car", Aptera seems to
think that they could sell 300 cars and break even.
I suspect that they will need to sell more, as costs
mount to try and increase production. However,
maybe the first 500 or even 1000 sales will get them
into "the black".

Aptera is not a high-overhead company like the "big"
companies that say that they have had 400 people working
(for 10 years?) on a green car, and that the technology
is not yet right. Aptera does not need to manufacture
the car for $5,000 to sell it for $29,000 like some others
might be waiting for.

Think "Aptera is Now", with a determination to do the best
they can with existing technology, and good innovation.
Battery technology has just turned the corner.

The slogan "Aptera is now, and the Future can be Anything
you want, so we better get working to make sure that we
are still here." (or something similar) might be good.

I think we (after getting Aptera's permission and blessing)
could do some things to make this vehicle known to many
more people, and help raise Green Awareness.

How about activities like:
1. Carry a "full-size" poster/drawing of the Aptera Typ-1p
(yes, the "p" is for the prototype that we see in pictures)
in your local May-Day parade, with just "Aptera.com"
lettered on the "side" of the vehicle? Of course, check
with your local parade people to see if they will permit
your parade entry.

Get a carry-pole for the top and a smaller weight-down
pole to hold the bottom edge down. The carry pole
should be at just about the correct height when riding
on the-proper-height somebody's shoulders.

Use cloth or sturdy paper for the "canvas". Maybe the
cloth could be green, or a painted "green" scene. Then,
draw and paint the Aptera on both sides. Maybe we
can take a nice picture from the web and blow it up
to full size, so it can be printed out on many sheets,
pasted together, and either glued on, or used as a
pattern for the artistic teenagers.

2. Other ideas ... later.

[SpyderMike]

I hear you swinti!

Gas has been more expensive, and cars are taxed more heavily, in Europe. Therefore, you would expect the movement to Aptera-type cars to have started there years ago and really taken stride. To expect it (an Aptera type movement) to start and take off in the US (and particularly California) is, to me, rather absurd.

Sure, there are a lot more smaller engined efficient cars in Europe for years if not decades, but us Americans are/were still buying the bigger and less efficient vehicles. Even the last gas "crisis" in the 1970s helped companies like Honda get going in the US and then ultimately they too are building SUVs. Sure the big bloated US car was trimmed down for a decade or two, but then was replaced by the SUV.

I am skeptical that Aptera will find more than a small niche market. I hope they have the cash to get there even. I don't see the US auto market going in this direction too far, they are not about to make any radical departures from their current direction. They move like an oil tanker that takes miles to turn.

I would be happy to have Aptera be successful, even as a niche market product. That is why I put a deposit in.

[evolutionmovement]

Crossover SUV sales are increasing in Europe, as they are here (mainly at expense of sales of large, traditional SUVs) and I've never seen that electric assist HPV thing that keeps getting posted here when I was in Europe, so they certainly aren't there in great numbers either. People are people and most are controlled by their fears - these kinds of unique vehicles will not appeal to them, at least not until they are accepted as a norm by society as a whole and that will take a while.

There are two sides to the equation - car companies don't build radical vehicles because they know they very likely won't sell. Look at the top ten cars for sales in nearly any market and you'll find most of the blandest cars built. Companies move like ships - the bigger they are, the more time and energy it takes to change direction. Something as simple as an engineer handing a PO down to purchasing can cost over $50 (that's what it was at my old company), so imagine what the kind of complete change in manufacturing techniques and ideas would cost. Not that you'd ever get it past bean counters and corporate to begin with. It's much cheaper and less risky for a big company to wait it out for a little innovator to succeed and then absorb them later.

Aptera is smart in that they recognize this and have (apparently) engineered the car for profitability at very low volumes and aren't overreaching themselves by going national (unfortunately for me).

[LQUAN]

I understand your concerns swinti and I am with you in most aspects. I have been thinking about the same FACTS, DREAMS, and REALITY as you have. Most small players like Aptera failed in the past because they did not time their bets carefully. And nobody can blame them for not timing their bets correctly. Energy (fuel) used to be cheap in the US. However, today the increasing rate of fuel and food price has surpassed the rate of earnings of many americans. EVs have been very expensive. Aptera is the first company that I know that selling EV for less than $30K. And yes, it is still about $3k to $4K more expensive compare to a decent midsize family car in the US. I believe that Aptera vehicle certainly has pratical functionality. However, their body type and style are not.

Regarding the body style. If they are committed enough to keep the price low or even lower, I think it won't be long before the public begin to accept its body style (with the help of ever increasing fuel price of course). They have to get enough of their products out there for the public to see that their product is being accepted. Pricing at $30K is in the right direction. And they are enticing the public with enough options to justify the price. I think they still need to load up Aptera vehicle with a few more luxury options. The state of CA is somewhat committed to help its people to buy efficient vehicles. They give tax breaks and all sorts of incentives. This is worth taking into consideration when buying an Aptera.

The body type is composite. That is a drawback when it comes to production speed. Composite pannels cannot be stampped out like metal pannels. Composite material is more expensive than metal. Worst of all, composite pannels have to be hand made. Each pannel will tie up the mold for several hours compare to a few seconds when stampping cold metal pannel. If they want to speed up the bonding process, they have to inject heat. And heat is not free.

The bottom line for Aptera is to become profitable. Regardless of how many Aptera vehicle the public wants or needs, if they can produce at the rate that they can be profit, I think it will be around for while. Unfortunately, I have no doubt that Aptera will be bought out by some large corporation. However, if Aptera proves that it is profitable, no large corporation will want to buy it just to kill it.

Just my own 2 cents.:D

FYI, my production number is 1893 for a Type1e. I am not just another enthusiast without money.;)

[Aptera #1159]

I understand your concerns swinti and I am with you in most aspects. I have been thinking about the same FACTS, DREAMS, and REALITY as you have. Most small players like Aptera failed in the past because they did not time their bets carefully. And nobody can blame them for not timing their bets correctly. Energy (fuel) used to be cheap in the US. However, today the increasing rate of fuel and food price has surpassed the rate of earnings of many americans. EVs have been very expensive. Aptera is the first company that I know that selling EV for less than $30K. And yes, it is still about $3k to $4K more expensive compare to a decent midsize family car in the US. I believe that Aptera vehicle certainly has pratical functionality. However, their body type and style are not.

Regarding the body style. If they are committed enough to keep the price low or even lower, I think it won't be long before the public begin to accept its body style (with the help of ever increasing fuel price of course). They have to get enough of their products out there for the public to see that their product is being accepted. Pricing at $30K is in the right direction. And they are enticing the public with enough options to justify the price. I think they still need to load up Aptera vehicle with a few more luxury options. The state of CA is somewhat committed to help its people to buy efficient vehicles. They give tax breaks and all sorts of incentives. This is worth taking into consideration when buying an Aptera.

The body type is composite. That is a drawback when it comes to production speed. Composite pannels cannot be stampped out like metal pannels. Composite material is more expensive than metal. Worst of all, composite pannels have to be hand made. Each pannel will tie up the mold for several hours compare to a few seconds when stampping cold metal pannel. If they want to speed up the bonding process, they have to inject heat. And heat is not free.

The bottom line for Aptera is to become profitable. Regardless of how many Aptera vehicle the public wants or needs, if they can produce at the rate that they can be profit, I think it will be around for while. Unfortunately, I have no doubt that Aptera will be bought out by some large corporation. However, if Aptera proves that it is profitable, no large corporation will want to buy it just to kill it.

Just my own 2 cents.:D

FYI, my production number is 1893 for a Type1e. I am not just another enthusiast without money.;)
so you finally plunked down the $500. Cool.

[KarenRei]

Each pannel will tie up the mold for several hours compare to a few seconds when stampping cold metal pannel. If they want to speed up the bonding process, they have to inject heat.

Either that or make more molds. Which of course has its own costs, as you know ;)

At least it's not like carbon-carbon panels. Those have to bake in the mold for days at high temperatures while they inject acetylene under pressure. Now *that* would be expensive.

[swinti]

From the bottom of my heart, I hope that APTERA becomes successful.
The low $ rate would help them to sell their cars for 30k (final customer price) to Europe.
Here is really a waiting market. I guess that I could sell without any doubts 500 to 1000 units in the first year only in Switzerland. But as I said earlier, it must be a finished industrial product, with the standard all included guaranty of 100’000 km or 3 years. But we have to understand, that the import and marketing raises costs of about 50%! So the ex factory price must be around 15k! Here we start to dream. The other way round the car would cost 60k (60’000 CHF) and then you sell maybe 5 to 10 per year.