This is more of a NEV: GM EN-V, Two Wheels Vehicle

[SEGsby]

GM EN-V: Two Wheeled, Two Seater, Automated Urban Transport

http://www.fastcompany.com/1596070/gms-en-v-can-drive-itself-to-your-house?partner=rss

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/03/24/financial/f044403D39.DTL

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wirestory?id=10187400&page=3

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link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVBZhuL5E2g)

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link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3JAyZxpyWE&NR=1)

[NeilBlanchard]

These vehicles seem to be a solution looking for a need? They are shown on plazas and paved malls -- which are *horrible* places to walk...:sign0003:

[SEGsby]

No. Not at all, just the assumptions you're making, are.

The older prototype's max speed was 35 miles per hour. It was never meant to be classed as a pedestrian device, like the Segway-- it just happens to use the same dynamic balancing technology to reduce the vehicles weight, and energy needs. GMs business is to makes vehicles, not wheelchairs.

This does not mean however, that they can't also safely operate EN-Vs indoors within designated areas, along side of pedestrians. A great example would be Airport Terminals in major cities, where many NEV-type EVs have proven their value at getting people to their destinations quickly. The advantage to the GM design, is how much more maneuverable, space saving and less power hungry they are, over a traditional 4 wheeled electric golf cart or NEV.

By using GPS and Collision Avoidance Systems, the EN-V is envisioned to be used to autonomously shuttle people to and from airports to specific user requested areas like restaurants, conventions & hotels. By using software control, they can be 'linked' into train-like configurations to handle larger groups of people.

Will you see a dynamically balancing 2 wheeled EV like this, for the freeway? Probably not for a long time yet. But NEVs are a perfectly valid transportation tool that has their place in a diversified urban mobility portfolio.

[PatQ562]

The world's smallest car! a 3 wheel closed car made in the Isle of Mann back in the 60's, powered by a 49cc motor, no bigger than an enclosed wheelchair, and light enough that "reverse gear" is "get out, pick up one end and swing it around". Top Gear has a hilarious segment on YouTube.

Pat Q

[SEGsby]

You mean the Peel P50...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_P50

How does that 3 wheeled, single seater, gas powered gocart have anything to do with the EN-V?

If anyone's been following the EV development on the other side of the world, the GM product is not that dissimilar from what Toyata's been experimenting for the Asian market, as well. In fact, GMs stuff actually seems a bit more conservative and practical minded:

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link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbtOJKSXhMA)

The smallest EV I know of, is Honda's U3-X. This video has a great essay about the evolution of EV's with less than 4 wheels. It even spends a bit of time explaining the Segway Hands Free Modification, which is what I use for local errands:

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link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LduYhx5lDY)

[PatQ562]

"How does that 3 wheeled, single seater, gas powered gocart have anything to do with the EN-V?"

You forgot "smoke-belching, oil dripping and British". But it shares an apparent desire to shrink the vehicular footprint to that of a seated driver. Of course 40 years of progress now enables computer controlled, 2-wheel auto-balancing instead of 3 wheels, electric drive instead of a chainsaw motor, weighing only hundreds of pounds more with only 50 times the manufacturing cost...

TECHNICALLY, the "smallest EV" is an electric skateboard - even smaller than an electric Razor scooter. A 250-500W motor will scoot you along at 15-20 mph. With a modern 10 lb lithium battery pack (600wh), run time could exceed 2 hours. What else can you carry on public transport as easily as a briefcase? I fear my board-riding days are over, but it's easy to imagine larger wheels with battery under a more stable deck, and a cable with hand controller for throttle and brakes, which would also be the "leash" for lifting over curbs and obstacles. Makes a Seqway look rather overdesigned doesn't it? (sorry, couldn't resist!)

Pat Q

[SEGsby]

I don't know where this mythology people spout comes from, but...

There is absolutely no need to lift the Segway over curbs or stairs. They weigh about 100 lbs. A big part of that being the two sets of lithium battery packs underneath-- so that would be pretty silly to try. Battery power is held in reserve, in case there is ever a hardware problem-- so you only get around 24 miles per charge with the current design.

Riderless Balance Mode (RBM) allows you to direct the machine either up or down such obstacles in a controlled fashion. This also helps in stowing the device in a car. Not a big deal.

Electric skateboards on the other hand, are not legal in many pedestrian environments. Their simplistic design only allows a far more generalized turning radius, and limited breaking capability than a Segway. I don't know of a single skateboard design that allows the user to rotate in place, 360 degrees. Tiny wheels on skateboards prevent the safe crossing of many common urban imperfections, like potholes, large pavement cracks, etc.

The Segway is perfectly well suited for it's native environment. And I would argue that it's not "over designed" at all, but "redundantly designed" for safety. The balancing technology keeps the footprint of the device incredibly small; both in terms of energy use and physical size. Scaling up the design for carrying more people at higher speeds on city streets, is a natural evolution of this technology.

Having owned a Segway for 4 years, I would be perfectly comfortable using the GM EN-V at 35+ miles per hour on city streets.

You should go rent one. I think you'd find the experience insightful.

[PatQ562]

If you re-read, I said nothing about lifting a Segway over obstacles - but as noted, a skateboard often needs to be, so a leash would be useful.

A Segway is a magnificent engineering accomplishment which (as far as I know) has failed to take the world by storm. The apparent mission is to allow people to move more quickly in pedestrian oriented environments (sidewalks, hallways, buildings) but it doesn't particularly lend itself to road trips, market runs, or "feeder trips" to the local bus stop. Unfortunately speeds in pedestrian environments are often limited by crowds on foot, negating the speed advantage (don't I recall some controversy about Segways on crowded NYC sidewalks?). I have however seen security personnel scooting around our local airport so they may be finding their niche.

Our forum, and this thread, is addressed to on-street vehicles. Although borderline, a skateboard (like bicycles and scooters) are street vehicles, and therefore "qualify" in some vague way as an "EV". I see the Segway as a sidewalk and assisted-mobility device.

The Pentagon used to (still does?) have messengers scooting around on roller skates, a vastly more economical solution to increase the speed of a standing person. Some skill (and youth) is required however.

I have seen Segway demos and the engineering looks great, but I would personally would get more use out of a $5K NEV vs a Segway. But a 20-lb device that can hasten the trip to and from bus stops, and can fit comfortably between a passenger's knees or hold by one end if standing, would be an asset, at least to younger riders, in a urban/suburban public transit scenario, and use almost no power.

I only offer this as a mind-opener; I probably wouldn't be a customer but I could have been 30 years ago.

Pat Q

[Telchar]

I agree that there seems to be no niche for which the Segway is the best solution. I'm curious though why you couldn't see yourself riding an electric skateboard? Is it a balance thing, or an image thing?

[SEGsby]

I think you're either suffering from bad PR poisoning, or a severe lack of imagination. And your question implies triteness of my mobility choice, which I resent. So let me educate you about aspects of life you've probably never given much thought to:

Two local Segway owners I personally know, have multiple sclerosis. One is a teacher at UCLA, and both these people use the technology for their mobility needs. They've each confided in me, the machine has changed their lives and allows them to escape being forced into a wheelchair. Body sores, digestive problems, and physical degeneration (balance, muscle strength, etc.) typically result from being constantly seated.

Being able to reach something at normal height from a shelf, seems like a trivial thing to a normal person. No big deal. But doing so with a disability that's traditionally been treated by making people sit down, makes huge improvements in people's lives-- emotionally as well as physically.

There is a program where wounded American Veterans with missing limbs, are trained and given Segways to help them reintegrate back into society with dignity, instead of hiding in the shadows of despair and shame:

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=54623

Unofficial statistics indicate that about one third of Southern California Segway owners have some kind of physical disability, and use the technology as a wheelchair alternative.

My medical status is no one's business, according to the Americans with Disabilities Act. But I will state for the record here-- that a bicycle is not a medically viable option for me.

Non-medical uses you ignore, are security applications (commercial space, patrol, airport, etc.), large scale facility mobility, and the growing global tourism industry. You probably didn't know that Disney is the largest fleet dealer for Segway. One might never get that from a surface reading in the media of lawsuits between disabled Segway owners and the Mouse. But Disney runs a couple of their own Segway tours within their parks and their maintenance staff, also use them to transport technicians & tools to where they're needed. Lots of advantages with using them over big NEVs in crowds or employee service hallways, etc..

I've already covered why skateboards suck, but let me do it again with respect to the question you've posed:

1. Skateboards, electric or otherwise, are not legal in pedestrian areas where I live.

2. Studies support the fact that Segways are a far safer option than other transportation options: http://www.segway.com/support/safety-studies.php Skateboards are just not known for their safety, or maneuverability. The tiny wheels on skateboards suck on imperfect surfaces with large cracks and potholes.

3. Segways are also designed to be used indoors. Opening and entering a door is easy. Elevators are not an issue. Even the tires are non-marking silicone rubber. They function perfectly well inside supermarkets, banks, bookstores and many of the restaurants I go to. Though there is a unified State Law allowing their use, owners must work out access to private property on a case-by-case basis. Don't think that would be as easy to accomplish with an electric skateboard for some reason. ;)

4. Besides pedestrian access ways, as of Jan 1st 2008, Segways can also legally access multi-purpose bike lanes in California.

5. The Segway Control Stick can be easily replaced with a variety of alternative input methods. I'm currently using the hands free modification, which is very much like year round electric snowboarding. Bet you didn't know that more calories are burned by a person using an i2 Segway, than someone sitting passively in a car. Its true. Using a Segway is akin to horseback riding. So if you want to be lazy, take the car, the bus, or the train...

6. Segways allow cargo frames to bolt on additional carrying cases for tools or cargo. A front cargo bag is also available for the default control stick. 50 lbs of cargo is cited as the upper limit. I commonly carry 30-40 in groceries, using a backpack with the hands free modification.

7. I see the Segway as a "local area" replacement for my gas-sucking car. Don't make assumptions here. I love walking. In fact, I do a lot of it (just got back from a great hike at Vasquez Rocks with some friends today!). But if I'm going from the Venice Canals to say, Guitar Center on the other side of town-- I'm not inclined to want to walk the 14 miles it takes to complete this errand in a timely manner. This is exactly the kind of urban context where the Segway shines. I don't need to use the car for everything, and pay for foreign oil as much I would, otherwise. Or, impose all that wear and tear on my car from inefficient, short trips. Electric cost is about a penny a mile. Range is about 18-20 for me and my older batteries. I've got about 6000 miles on mine, now. And it has more than paid for itself in the 3.5 years I've used it.

8. Segways are a great teaching aid to show kids (and close minded adults) how electric transportation / mobility work NOW (the technology is a decade old now), and explain the physics of how the device safely solves the problem of the 'Inverted Pendulum'. Disruptive technology forces people to think about things they otherwise wouldn't ever consider.

Just like the Aptera might one day lead people to think about how inefficient their gas vehicles really are...

[PatQ562]

Segways are, as noted, more of an assisted-mobility device for pedestrian environments. Just because many people don't choose to spend the big bucks for that particular solution doesn't mean they drank the poisoned Kool-aid. There's lots of high-tech solutions for problems that I personally have no interest in.

At 63, apparently my balance (and bone density) is no longer up to riding a skateboard, but I see kids zipping down my street frequently. My last attempt to ride my nephew's board about 15 years ago resulted in sprained wrists. I sailed along a sidewalk for a few feet getting my balance. Approaching a large crack, I tried to hop off. The new-fangled flexible, grip-coated deck clung to my feet somehow, so I hit the crack and fell on my wrists (saving myself from a face-plant). This points out the limitations of skateboards for general service but I couldn't resist playing with the concept.

Pat Q