Ford Focus EV coming in 2011.

[aptera1213]

Good to see Ford is getting the Focus out in 2011.

A bit more information and maybe it can steal some excitement and some sales from the LEAF.

http://www.brighterenergy.org/7236/news/transport/ford-promises-five-electrified-vehicle-models-by-2012/

We really are getting more and more EV releases as of late. Thanks Nissan for lighting a fire under some people's backsides :)

Gavin

[SEGsby]

It's good to have noncarplike alternatives. ;)

[SlowSRT4]

It's good to have noncarplike alternatives. ;)
Will be nice to hear more information about the Focus EV and hopefully they will do some early test drives for the press like with the Volt.

We've seen plenty about the prototype Focus EV which is the one pictured in the article, based on the old Focus. But the Focus EV will be on the brand new Focus platform which I imagine is a lot better, and they said it was designed from the beginning to be able to easily accept an electric powertrain.

[aptera1213]

Yep...I like the 2012 Focus (coming in 2011) much much more than the current model.

I really hope they come out with some info before April 20th. If not, well I'm likely getting the LEAF. Right now I'm leaning toward doing the 3 year lease. When that lease is up it will be a great time to buy a Fiat 500 EV.
Though I wish the LEAF lease was 2 years vs 3. That would be perfect.

But if Ford releases some Focus EV news soon and offers something like the LEAF (close in price and specs and such and lets us put down a deposit say sometime this summer) well I probably would wait. I like the looks of the Focus over the LEAF...but Nissan is working harder than anybody else it seems to get me to buy one of their EVs:)

Gavin

[eestorfan]

Yep...I like the 2012 Focus (coming in 2011) much much more than the current model.

I really hope they come out with some info before April 20th. If not, well I'm likely getting the LEAF. Right now I'm leaning toward doing the 3 year lease. When that lease is up it will be a great time to buy a Fiat 500 EV.
Though I wish the LEAF lease was 2 years vs 3. That would be perfect.

But if Ford releases some Focus EV news soon and offers something like the LEAF (close in price and specs and such and lets us put down a deposit say sometime this summer) well I probably would wait. I like the looks of the Focus over the LEAF...but Nissan is working harder than anybody else it seems to get me to buy one of their EVs:)

Gavin

Actually Gavin, you have until August to decide on the LEAF. You can put your deposit down Apr. 20, and if Ford comes out with the info on the EV Focus before August and you like it, you can get your deposit back. That's what I'm planning on doing. Because Nissan said that in August, if you want a LEAF, you have to confirm and actually order your car for delivery in Dec. I was hoping the Focus will be less expensive and maybe have a better range.

[aptera1213]

Good call. I will do the same. I'm actually thinking of leasing. By the time the 3 years are up I can then get a Fiat 500EV...and will have a year of them on the road to see how they are for reliability and all that. If they do well, I get a 500ev, if they have issues, well I either keep the LEAF or get a new LEAF or get a Focus EV or maybe by then Aptera will have the 2e out...

:)

Gavin

[LTLFTcomposite]

Good call. I will do the same. I'm actually thinking of leasing. By the time the 3 years are up I can then get a Fiat 500EV...and will have a year of them on the road to see how they are for reliability and all that. If they do well, I get a 500ev, if they have issues, well I either keep the LEAF or get a new LEAF or get a Focus EV or maybe by then Aptera will have the 2e out...

:)

Gavin

Anybody heard info on what the residual/buyout will be on the Leaf? The lease has the advantage that you can walk away if it's a lemon, but the disadvantage that if it's a peach and you want to keep it 3yrs lease payments plus the buyout may be substantially more than if you had just bought it in the first place.

[eestorfan]

Anybody heard info on what the residual/buyout will be on the Leaf? The lease has the advantage that you can walk away if it's a lemon, but the disadvantage that if it's a peach and you want to keep it 3yrs lease payments plus the buyout may be substantially more than if you had just bought it in the first place.

I saw it on their tv ad. I think the buyout price was around $16K which would be a total of around $28K or so. I'll watch for it again, and write it down. It sounds like a pretty good deal, especially if you love the car after three years.

[LTLFTcomposite]

I saw it on their tv ad. I think the buyout price was around $16K which would be a total of around $28K or so. I'll watch for it again, and write it down. It sounds like a pretty good deal, especially if you love the car after three years.

Wow that's fantastic! When you factor out a small percentage for the interest you aren't paying (if you financed the purchase, or would otherwise be losing if you paid cash) that looks like almost no penalty for leasing. Assuming they will have at least a three year warranty you'd be covered for issues that could arise with this new technology. And if the 2014 models have a 300 mile range I wouldn't be stuck with something that could be worth a lot less just based on technology obsolescence.

What am I missing?

[KarenRei]

And if the 2014 models have a 300 mile range I wouldn't be stuck with something that could be worth a lot less just based on technology obsolescence.

What am I missing?

That the 2014 models won't have 300 miles range. ;)

[gistmarrs]

Where can you put down a deposit on the LEAF on the 20th?

[eestorfan]

That the 2014 models won't have 300 miles range. ;)

If the EESU doesn't exist, then I would agree. But even if it doesn't, we could buy a less expensive, better technology car in 2013. I'm going to believe that with all the latest technology breakthroughs that there will be a lighter, denser, and less expensive battery which would lower the price of the BEV tremendously. :)

[eestorfan]

Where can you put down a deposit on the LEAF on the 20th?

If you have already signed up on their website (email), then you will get an email telling how they are going to do the deposits on the 20th.

[SlowSRT4]

Where can you put down a deposit on the LEAF on the 20th?
NissanUSA.com official website

[LTLFTcomposite]

That the 2014 models won't have 300 miles range. ;)

OK, so the rate of advancement of this technology may not track to Moore's Law, but it might be something along the lines of Cole's Law.

[KarenRei]

OK, so the rate of advancement of this technology may not track to Moore's Law, but it might be something along the lines of Cole's Law.

Ouch. You got me with that one. ;)

[LTLFTcomposite]

Ouch. You got me with that one. ;)

No I didn't. You were supposed to say "What is Cole's Law?"

[KarenRei]

No I didn't. You were supposed to say "What is Cole's Law?"

I did say that. To Google. ;)

[Schrodinger]

Thinly sliced cabbage! :D

[SlowSRT4]

Great new feature called AppLink will integrate your Blackberry, Android, and iPhone apps with SYNC. It will be coming to the new Focus as well.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/20/2011-ford-fiesta-to-include-applink/

[SlowSRT4]

Some good and bad news about the Focus Electric.

Bad news is it won't be coming until later in 2011 (3Q?). In the following markets:
Atlanta, Austin and Houston, Texas; Boston, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, New York, Orlando, Fla., Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz.; Portland, Ore.; Raleigh Durham, N.C.; Richmond, Va., Seattle, and Washington, D.C.

It does make sense that they would start with the ICE car, and it is a 2012 model year vehicle, but I was hopeful they might launch simultaneously anyway.

Good news is that the assembly plant upgrades are complete and ready for production. The plant is said to be very flexible, so production of the EV can be scaled to meet demand. It is also very nice to learn of the solar panel installations and electric delivery trucks, etc.

See article here:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/12/15/fords-retooled-michigan-assembly-ready-to-build-electrics-hybr/
.

[Jack5297]

I cannot understand all the excitement over a 100% electric vehicle where you would be extremely lucky to get close to 100 mile range. I know the Leaf, I have driven it and studied it. The 100 mile advertised range, depends upon the driving speed, the terrain, the payload (one or more passengers). On top of all of that, one has to pay $2,500 for a home charging station. In fact, most drivers will be lucky to get 70 miles on a charge.

[palmer_md]

I'm glad you were able to give the Leaf a good review and determine that it is not the car for you. There are a great number of people who feel that the car will work quite well for their situation. Thats why we have choices.

[Jack5297]

Ah yes, choices are good, but they should be informed and intelligent choices. That is the purpose of discourse. To state not just opinions, but opinions based on facts.

[SlowSRT4]

Ah yes, choices are good, but they should be informed and intelligent choices. That is the purpose of discourse. To state not just opinions, but opinions based on facts.
Which is why I would rather not speculate on the real-world range of the Focus based off a competing EV. We know the official EPA range of the Leaf. For the Focus all we know is they are targeting 100 miles of consistent range, and have an active liquid thermal management system for the battery pack. But we won't have EPA numbers for a while yet.

[evnow]

On top of all of that, one has to pay $2,500 for a home charging station. In fact, most drivers will be lucky to get 70 miles on a charge.
Wrong on both counts.

The first Leaf owner thinks you can get more than 80 miles of range traveling @ 70mph ...

[aptera1213]

I drive no more than 20 miles each day...so all planned electric cars are actually overkill for me :)

As for the charging station...well one: I can easily charge on 110v...so no extra costs at all...two: if I want 220v, I can get a charging station for around a grand...and will be cheaper as more product comes to market.

So if you are a city person with a garage like me and many others, electric is the future...if you are a city person with a garage and solar panels on your roof like me, well electric is the only way to go...anything else would be silly at best. Clean, renewable energy. No gas station trips. No supporting countries that hate us.....Sweet.

Gavin

[SlowSRT4]

Ford Focus Electric unveiled at CES:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/01/07/2011-ford-focus-electric-ces-unveiled/

[eventhusiast]

I think the auto manufactures are focusing on minimum 100 mile range with easy driving and as we all know here that type of range is great for a primary local travel car for the majority of people.

Now for big news, Ford EV available in late 2011...I see this as another Aptera killer. Along with the Leaf and a slew of others scrambling to get out into production, it looks like Aptera has missed the boat.

I can not fathom why the government would fund this start up now, not in the financial situation they are in at the moment (announcing cut backs). They Already did Tesla S and Fiskar, plus all the battery companies. Why would they fund Aptera now when all these EV are starting to be produced in numbers and other big name companies are gearing up production factories?

Plus, I dont think Aptera can compete on price, unless they are under $25K. They should have produced the car in low, low volume at the higher cost just to get them out on the road. People would have bought them at $40-50k like they did with Tesla Roadster.

I really dont think they will survive now.

[evmavin]

Anything kills the Aptera because it will never exist likely. Have you seen the incredible weight of the focus EV at 10 pounds shy of 3,700 lbs!!!

[SlowSRT4]

Anything kills the Aptera because it will never exist likely. Have you seen the incredible weight of the focus EV at 10 pounds shy of 3,700 lbs!!!
Would you mind posting a source for that?

[evmavin]

Would you mind posting a source for that?


Reported form several sources inc:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/11q1/2012_ford_focus_electric_official_photos_and_info-auto_shows

[SlowSRT4]

Reported form several sources inc:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/11q1/2012_ford_focus_electric_official_photos_and_info-auto_shows
Hmm. So it weighs 325 lbs more than the Leaf and yet they expect to achieve the same fuel economy. I could see how the liquid heating/cooling would help with efficiency (and longevity of the battery), but I don't know if that even factors into EPA ratings.

Interesting that it charges twice as fast as the Leaf. I could see that being a big selling point for some people.

[SEGsby]

I really LIKE the style of the new EV Focus, and the updated electronics in the interior brings Ford into the current decade. Glad they spent the money on a more robust internal charging system. All good things.

But all the problems with the design are due to it being shoved into a re-purposed frame and body meant for an ICE:

1. Middle of cargo area eaten by batteries, instead of being flat along the entire length, in the floor. Higher center of gravity compared to other designs.

2. Requires more weight just to retrofit an additional bottom pan for the aero. Vehicles like the Leaf and Tesla S get this for "free" with their design.

3. Overweight frame / limited range. Maybe 70 miles? The better charging electronics might help offset the limited range ? *shrugs*

4. 84 mph top speed. Gah. :P

It's a first (timid?) step for Ford, but pales in comparison to the Tesla's pure EV engineering approach. Conversions just don't make the best Electric Vehicles. You end up with unpleasant compromises.

[SlowSRT4]

I really LIKE the style of the new EV Focus, and the updated electronics in the interior brings Ford into the current decade.
:confused: You mean the decade that started 9 days ago? Or was it 1 year and 9 days ago? :rolleyes:

If anything, Ford's Sync systems have been considered the industry standard. I would say the new MyFord Touch system is ahead of the other competing systems. Having dual thumb pads with corresponding screens is very smart. The color-coding and quick reference to various pieces of information makes a lot of sense.

1. Middle of cargo area eaten by batteries, instead of being flat along the entire length, in the floor. Higher center of gravity compared to other designs.

I agree about the cargo area, ideally it would be flat. But the Leaf also does not have a flat cargo area.

http://image.motortrend.com/f/29621959+w750/2011-nissan-leaf-japanese-spec-cargo-space.jpg

[evnow]

I agree about the cargo area, ideally it would be flat. But the Leaf also does not have a flat cargo area.
Leaf trunk is deep. With the cargo organizer installed you get flat surface.

Focus hump is too high. They didn't even give a trunk photo ... it's that bad.

[SlowSRT4]

Leaf trunk is deep. With the cargo organizer installed you get flat surface.

Focus hump is too high. They didn't even give a trunk photo ... it's that bad.
Right, but the cross-member still inhibits total cargo volume and the rear seats are higher than the fronts. The cargo organizer is a $225 option.

This video gives a good look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfjzXId4hRc

[SEGsby]

:confused: You mean the decade that started 9 days ago? Or was it 1 year and 9 days ago? :rolleyes:

Yes, it's that fresh. :cool0008:


I agree about the cargo area, ideally it would be flat. But the Leaf also does not have a flat cargo area.


The Leaf's hump is level with the height of the folded rear seat. The space is limited, but at least the exposed surface area is more usable. The floor extender option makes the issue for the Leaf, pretty much moot.

My cello case, however, is not bent into a U shape. So it will not slide into the Ford from the back hatch, or lay flat with ease. So, no cute Aston-Martinesque Ford for me. Which is too bad; the styling is surprisingly clean and tasteful for an EV. :(

Hopefully Ford eventually forgoes the recession-inspired engineering and makes a pure EV platform that has a better center of gravity, less weight and allows for improved cargo area layout.

[SlowSRT4]

Yes, it's that fresh. :cool0008:

The Leaf's hump is level with the height of the folded rear seat. The space is limited, but at least the exposed surface area is more usable. The floor extender option makes the issue for the Leaf, pretty much moot.

My cello case, however, is not bent into a U shape. So it will not slide into the Ford from the back hatch, or lay flat with ease. So, no cute Aston-Martinesque Ford for me. Which is too bad; the styling is surprisingly clean and tasteful for an EV. :(

Hopefully Ford eventually forgoes the recession-inspired engineering and makes a pure EV platform that has a better center of gravity, less weight and allows for improved cargo area layout.
I wouldn't say that the cargo organizer makes the issue moot. It makes it flat, but the load floor is still quite high up at that point, so larger items that would fit in my Caliber would not fit in the Leaf. Also, the cargo organizer is of course an extra $225. Seems like a must-have option to me, for anyone that might transport more than just grocery bags. Nissan should have just included it as standard imo. I also don't know if the passenger seat folds flat in the Leaf.

Not sure I understand the comment about recession-inspired engineering. Ford still has to weigh all its decisions very carefully, recession or not. As EV enthusiasts, we may think there is no such thing as too much investment in EVs. But the reality is that there is a lot that happens on the business side and these investments are indeed risky. None of us know if EVs will immediately take off, or how fast their market penetration will increase. Ford is hanging by a thread. They are heavily in debt and have an abysmal credit rating:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1625588320101216
They can't afford to lose money right now, they have to maintain profitability. Hence the strategy with the Focus. Global platform, multiple types (gas, EV, hybrid, plug-in hybrid), and flexible plant to scale production. The dedicated EV approach is more costly and risky. But I do agree that they should have put the batteries under the floor like the other mainstream competitors (500 EV, Fit EV, etc.).

Edit: Never mind about the Fit EV. Apparently it also has its batteries in the back, and not under the floor.

[NeilBlanchard]

They have a photo from the back door looking into the back:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/44-2012-ford-focus-electric.jpg
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/43-2012-ford-focus-electric.jpg

Here's the chassis, which I had not seen before:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/01/64-2012-ford-focus-electric.jpg

[randyd]

By the way, if you want a more appropriate place to make these comments, there is a new Ford Focus EV forum: http://fordfocuselectric.com. I joined a couple of days ago, and I am member #11. :) (Yes, it is that new.)

Here's a link to forum post #19 (http://fordfocuselectric.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4#p19) I think y'all can relate to it. Would some one please reply to it? It's lonely over there...:character0009:

And thanks for the photos Neil. That is one big hump. Seems silly to have a folding back seat with a barrier right there....

[byplug]

By the way, if you want a more appropriate place to make these comments, there is a new Ford Focus EV forum: http://fordfocuselectric.com. I joined a couple of days ago, and I am member #11. :) (Yes, it is that new.)

Here's a link to forum post #19 (http://fordfocuselectric.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4#p19) I think y'all can relate to it. Would some one please reply to it? It's lonely over there...:character0009:

And thanks for the photos Neil. That is one big hump. Seems silly to have a folding back seat with a barrier right there....


...right behind you...
...joined Ford Focus EV forum as well... #12
...As a company, not excited about Ford's decision on the new Fiesta..
...not Econetic diesel for USA (74 MPG) but instead gasoline and hecho in Mexico...
...but, looking forward to the the Focus EV
...thanks randyd for the tip....

[c0mp13x]

Right behind you guys on the FFE forum at lucky #13...

Love the looks of the Focus, pricing and performance will seal the deal for me. I definitely waiting until fall '11 to see how the Focus compares to the rest.

The other Focus Electric thread: http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=3903&highlight=%22ford+focus+electric

:wavey:

[evmavin]

By the way, if you want a more appropriate place to make these comments, there is a new Ford Focus EV forum: http://fordfocuselectric.com. I joined a couple of days ago, and I am member #11. :) (Yes, it is that new.)

Here's a link to forum post #19 (http://fordfocuselectric.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4#p19) I think y'all can relate to it. Would some one please reply to it? It's lonely over there...:character0009:

And thanks for the photos Neil. That is one big hump. Seems silly to have a folding back seat with a barrier right there....


There is no more appropriate place to post about other EVs than on the Aptera site:) It's the new portal to all things NOT Aptera.

[PatQ562]

Although a slower turnover than Apteraforum in its heyday, I look in on the Volt forum every several days. They're starting to have reports from actual owners, and they have several topics (competitors, advanced batteries, engineering) with interest beyond just the Volt. Winter performance is, not surprisingly, at the low end of the range - one reported 27 mile battery range, 32mpg in sustaining mode.
Pat Q

[NeilBlanchard]

Here's a video of the Focus Electric:

mkBQmQ2F54c

[Grendal]

Okay - what's with the butterflies? The car looks really great, however.

[SlowSRT4]

Interview about Ford's electric plans:

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/01/10/detroit-2011-bill-ford-discusses-blue-ovals-electrification-pl/


Turns out there is a good reason for choosing a C platform. :)

[palmer_md]

2KtdOu6xIQY

[SEGsby]

Okay - what's with the butterflies? The car looks really great, however.

Pretty much a "Me Too" nod from Ford, since Nissan already used trees...

I would be neat if you could customize your vehicle's display to whatever creature you were championing. Like, Polar Bears, or other endangered species.

Or Zombies. Yeah, that would be cool. ;)

:jumping0006:

[randyd]

Does anyone know if Ford and Nissan will have the same power connector? Can I charge my Focus using my friend's Leaf charger? More importantly, really, is the question, "Will the public charging stations being installed by various utilities be able to charge the Focus EV, the Leaf, and the next BEV to hit the market?

[SEGsby]

Yes, the new Level 2 US EV plug standard is called SAE J1772:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

Unfortunately, a totally different standard appears for EU countries:

http://www.evplugalliance.org/

[SlowSRT4]

Does anyone know if Ford and Nissan will have the same power connector? Can I charge my Focus using my friend's Leaf charger? More importantly, really, is the question, "Will the public charging stations being installed by various utilities be able to charge the Focus EV, the Leaf, and the next BEV to hit the market?
Yes and yes. In fact, your friend's Leaf charging station would charge your Focus twice as fast as his own Leaf. :p

[SEGsby]

Ford's own Website / PR for the Focus EV:

http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

Unfortunately, it's a little thin on details...

[PatQ562]

In fact, your friend's Leaf charging station would charge your Focus twice as fast as his own Leaf.
Isn't the recharge time governed by the vehicle's on-board charger electronics, at least until you reach the approx 7kW limit of the level II, 32A, 240V AC connector system?
Pat Q

[SEGsby]

Yes, but Ford spent more on a better on-board charging system...

Probably to compensate for the lower expected range (compared to Leaf) from being so heavy.

The good news is, this probably raises the industry's bar for higher quality chargers in the next vehicle update cycle. Tesla is also reported to be working on faster recharge rates. This is all awesome for the consumer.

[SlowSRT4]

Isn't the recharge time governed by the vehicle's on-board charger electronics, at least until you reach the approx 7kW limit of the level II, 32A, 240V AC connector system?
Pat Q
Indeed, and the Focus has a 6.6 kW charger compared to the Leaf's 3.3 kW.

Yes, but Ford spent more on a better on-board charging system...

Probably to compensate for the lower expected range (compared to Leaf) from being so heavy.

The good news is, this probably raises the industry's bar for higher quality chargers in the next vehicle update cycle. Tesla is also reported to be working on faster recharge rates. This is all awesome for the consumer.
I believe Ford is still claiming 100 miles of range.

[SEGsby]

Ford Focus Electric Range:

http://fordfocuselectric.com/2010/08/12/ford-focus-electrics-range/

No EPA numbers out yet, so the jury is still out.

[evnow]

I believe Ford is still claiming 100 miles of range.
Ford doesn't say what range they expect - except to say "comparable to competition". Does that mean 90 miles LA4 or 100 miles LA4 we don't know. My guess is it will be smaller than Leaf's 73 EPA number - given that they said the mpge is more than Volt's but "comparable to competition".

[evnow]

Ford Focus Electric Range:

http://fordfocuselectric.com/2010/08/12/ford-focus-electrics-range/
That is 6 months old and wrong on a few counts in terms of what we know now.

[PatQ562]

Indeed, and the Focus has a 6.6 kW charger compared to the Leaf's 3.3 kW.

AH, I had it backwards, and thought the 3.3kW Leaf was supposed to magically charge faster on the "Ford" plug-in.

Having only a 3.3kW charger, even on 240V, was yet another complaint about Aptera back when we actually looked forward to getting vehicles. With the full 6.6kW capacity, one could substantially recharge a 20kWh pack in about 3 hours. This means I could drive Laguna Beach to San Francisco in three gentle runs with two 3-hour breaks - a long day's work but conceivable. 3.3kW effectively means "overnight" for a 20kWh pack - at least 6 hours.

It was theoretically possible to make the SF run in the EV1 but I would have needed a long 6 hour stop in Ventura or Santa Barbara, an overnight in San Luis Obispo, and probably a booster charge on Day 2 in San Jose. I never dared try for fear the solitary charger in San Luis Obispo would be broken or inaccessible. The NiMH EV1 could only be recharged with the unreliable Magna-Charge system. Having a car you CAN plug in anywhere means you should never be stranded, merely delayed, if a public charger is down.

Pat Q

[Mesuge]

Yes, the new Level 2 US EV plug standard is called SAE J1772:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
Unfortunately, a totally different standard appears for EU countries:
http://www.evplugalliance.org/


They are both evolution of the IEC standards applied in "previous" wave of EV in the mid/late 1990s. Nowadays, there are several J1772 related infrustructure 3rd party suppliers poping up for self installers in the US, so hopefully you won't be all the time dependant on the "official/pricey" addon equipment from big OEMs and pals. This will help crack up the situation for the EU diy market as well.

The global players like Benz/Ford/Toyota/Tesla want keep some form of global standartization in place for their products, it's their priority too, so the differences are mostly in the moulds for the plugs, power charging levels, resitor values and few lines of code, it's not about different underlying technology.

[SEGsby]

Yeah, once you toss out the shape of the plugs, the different power levels, incompatible interface protocols, etc.-- they're all still basically electric power plugs.

Amazing observation.

... so the differences are mostly in the moulds for the plugs, power charging levels, resitor values and few lines of code, it's not about different underlying technology.

[Mesuge]

This forum is becoming hopeless, the first sentence clearly stated it's an evolution of older global standard for charging infrustructure (under IEC) from the 1990s. The rest of the text can be translated for dummies as, don't worry 3rd party plugs/charging dongles won't be that expensive.

It's not my problem that you are apparently oblivious to the fact you can buy the very same hardware components and assemble it on your own (or buy it from mentioned OEM independent vendors).

[SEGsby]

Clarity of language and thought, is always something to strive for. I appreciate the renewed attempt. :)

[Mesuge]

For the jokers lets offer some more of that predigested food, e.g. start here with the most interesting part the EVSE controller, basically a chip in control of the contactor/relays. There is more info elsewhere (on the cabling end of it), also Rickard posted something about alt. vendors, circuit schematics on his blog etc. This diy/3rd party scene will just explode as more EV/PHEVs get in the hands of commoners.. Sticking to at least 2001 IEC issues backward compatibility (older EV or parts for EVSE)..

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=61271#p61271
http://modularevpower.com/EVSE_module_development.htm
http://modularevpower.com/Charging%20Station/1772_2010.htm
http://modularevpower.com/
perhaps evolving into feature overloaded commercial units like Blink: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=850

[SEGsby]

Let It Snow: Cold Weather No Problem for Ford Focus Electric’s Liquid-Heated Battery System

http://www.iewy.com/18675-let-it-snow-cold-weather-no-problem-for-ford-focus-electric%E2%80%99s-liquid-heated-battery-system.html

[SEGsby]

The Parts it doesn't have:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1055187_2012-ford-focus-electric-all-the-parts-it-doesnt-have

[SEGsby]

Ford Names 25 Top EV Ready Cities in The US

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20053589-48.html

[SEGsby]

Phoenix will be among first cities to sell all new electric Ford Focus

http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/2011/04/13/20110413phoenix-will-among-first-cities-sell-new-all-electric-ford-focus.html

[randyd]

And there's been a bunch of recent activity on http://fordfocuselectric.com/.

[c0mp13x]

Ford updated the Focus Electric homepage:

http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012

http://www.thecollegedriver.com/system/photos/1275/large/FocusElectric.jpg

:thumbsup:

[miamisunray]

Can I assume that since no one has posted here since May of 2011 that there is no more interest in the Aptera?...Just asking, as I would love to get an all-electric or a kick-a57 hybrid small car, but the $$ are a little much

[SEGsby]

I think there was a lot of interest-- just no effort by Aptera to maintain it. :P

[SEGsby]

Sometime in Spring of 2012, now? And only available in California and NY, initially:

http://www.autotalk.com/ford-focus-electrics-release-gets-pushed-back-11481/

[Grendal]

And the price will be:

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/02/ford-focus-electric-priced-from-39-200/

If Aptera could have pulled off the 25K pricing then fought the government for some kind of rebate I think they still could have been in the competition.

[SEGsby]

Wow.

Seems pretty pricey for a vehicle that has less range than a Leaf, is several hundred pounds heavier, has a smaller battery pack, less usable cargo space, and offers no Level 3 fast charging support. :P

Leaf has already committed to updating their on-board L2 charging hardware and thermal battery support to compete with the Focus-- which isn't even on the market yet...


Ah, Detroit... You suck so bad. Time to learn from the Japanese, me thinks.

[NeilBlanchard]

My issue with the Focus EV is the battery pack takes up much of the trunk; and the Cg can't be very good.

I'm hoping the Honda Fit EV is a better design and a better price.

[c0mp13x]

Wow... what a gigantic disappointment, $40k for a Focus!

I guess I was dreamin' when I though Ford could pull this off at $30-35k. Good luck selling these at that price.

So... how's that Jason Hill styled Edison2 coming?! Ha

:wavey:

[SlowSRT4]

Ah, Detroit... You suck so bad. Time to learn from the Japanese, me thinks.
You come to this conclusion based on nothing but speculation.

Based on a few select factors that you are not even sure of (weight, range, L3 charging, cargo space) you assume that the value proposition is extremely low. Meanwhile, ignoring any items that aren't in the Leaf's favor.

L3 charging: Ford will adopt the new SAE standard for L3, possibly even before the launch date (new SAE standard set to be finalized 1st quarter 2012). This standard will be more widespread by far in the US. This can easily be considered an advantage to the Focus, as the Leaf's L3 charging plug could see diminished support. Also, your hypocrisy is showing. You criticize the Focus for not outfitting a L3 charger (as of yet), but don't criticize the Leaf's inferior L2 charging due to the future availability of an update kit (with unknown price or launch date). SAE compliant L3 charging could more than likely be added to the Focus pre-launch, or post-launch as well. Furthermore, I would argue that L2 charging is far more important than L3 charging for the foreseeable future.

Arguably, the ~4k price premium of the Focus can be justified by its feature set.

8 inch touchscreen nav on Focus vs 7 inch touchscreen nav on Leaf
92 kW motor vs 80 kW motor
6.6 kW L2 charging vs 3.3 kW L2
L3 SAE vs L3 CHAdeMO
HD Radio
9 speaker Sony sound system vs 6 speaker Nissan generic system
seats from 100% recycled material vs seats partially containing recycled material
produced in 100% emission-free factory (solar array + Transit Connect EV transport trucks) vs reduced-emission, partially environmentally-friendly factory
built in US, lithium from Canada (minimal shipping involved, reduced environmental impact) vs shipping many resources to Japan, building there, and shipping completed cars here (increased environmental impact)
17 inch aluminum wheels vs 16 inch
liquid thermal regulation for battery pack vs air circulation
fully independent Control Blade SLA rear suspension vs torsion bar rear axle
premium luxury Aston Martin / Ford kinetic style vs catfish-inspired ugliness

They each have their pro's and con's. How you can claim the Focus to be a dud already is beyond me. At this point, with the information available to me, both cars are absolutely fantastic. Which one is better is a matter of personal preference.

[Grendal]

Well said SlowSRT4, however with a 5.9 Billion loan from the Feds and a recent 1.6 Billion in profits from just the 3rd quarter I would have expected a bit more. With 7.5 Billion available to them they should be making Tesla look like a bunch of amateurs. Instead they're just dipping their toe in the EV waters and leaving the field open for Nissan to take a solid lead in the low end EV market. In two years Tesla will hit the market with their 30K vehicle and I now expect them to truly blow everyone else away. I'm happy for Tesla but disappointed no one else has managed to stand out. The more the merrier but little in the way of Wow Factor for the Ford and the FFE.

[SlowSRT4]

Well said SlowSRT4, however with a 5.9 Billion loan from the Feds and a recent 1.6 Billion in profits from just the 3rd quarter I would have expected a bit more. With 7.5 Billion available to them they should be making Tesla look like a bunch of amateurs. Instead they're just dipping their toe in the EV waters and leaving the field open for Nissan to take a solid lead in the low end EV market. In two years Tesla will hit the market with their 30K vehicle and I now expect them to truly blow everyone else away. I'm happy for Tesla but disappointed no one else has managed to stand out. The more the merrier but little in the way of Wow Factor for the Ford and the FFE.
That financial information is being somewhat misapplied. The 5.9 billion dollar loan was not designated solely for the Focus EV, but to improve fuel economy across Ford's product line. Also, Ford is already 14 billion dollars in debt. Remember, they narrowly escaped bankruptcy and are still paying for it. So they don't exactly have a surplus of extra money to spend.

Toyota, on the other hand, has absolutely massive cash reserves. Maybe they can build your dream EV and sell it to you at an insanely low price? If they are feeling charitable that is...

[SEGsby]

Someone's not been doing their research...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric

Focus EV Top Speed: 84 mph. Leaf: 93 (95 observed) mph.

Ford EV battery pack size: 23 kWh. Leaf: 24 kWh

Ford Ev L3 Support: None. Leaf: CHAdeMO (80% in 30 minutes)

Ford EV Curb Weight: 3700 lbs. Leaf: 3400 lbs.

Nissan makes updates to Leaf public:
http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/car-news/110309/nissan-updates-leaf-for-2012-2013.jsp

The two most relevant updates to this discussion, are L2 hardware that meets Ford's specs, and improved thermal management for the battery.

Do I think the one inch border around the touchscreen and the uber-sound system are going to make me forget the price premium of the Ford, along with its limited top speed, range and charging options?

No.

Nissan's made a huge commitment to making and supporting EV's. They've already shown what their next EV might be like, in their ESFLOW concept. Has Ford shown off their next EV concept yet? Nope.

And where are all the ads for the Focus EV??? Where is all the media hype for their new product!?!?!? It's November. They're supposed to be doing a limited rollout, and it's been pretty boring so far.

Ford clearly isn't interested in winning the EV market, IMHO... Not with specs like the above, and prices that aren't justified in the market as it currently stands.

[miamisunray]

Over the past several years I have been all 'gung-ho' about getting my first all-electric vehicle. I have been watching all the start-ups (Arcimoto, Meyers duo and a host of others) scramble to try to get financing to get off the ground so they can finally produce a car for the masses.

After going to the still-on-going Miami auto show, I suddenly realized (not just due to the fact that in the entire show there were only 4 electric cars shown --Miev, Focus, leaf and Volt---yawnnnn) but there were quite a few interesting little cars that get around 35+MPG.... for $15K!!

I turned to my brother and said "Ya know?, gasoline ain't going no-where"

Well, perhaps I phrased it using a bit better grammar, but the point was made. show me a $15K electric car with an 80-mile range, that is safe to drive---no extra frills but WITH a small a.C. unit for those really steamy days down here--- and I would buy it in a pinch NOW. I simply cannot afford to come up with, or finance, a $25K car that only does 80 miles, as much as I REALLY want to help the environment.

I will still try to scout what else might be available out there, in terms of hybrid vehicles and the like, But I would rather buy a 37MPG scion IQ or something neat like that, than pay almost double and get 1/3rd the range. I figure 37 MPG is far better than my present 17 MPG 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo, even if I DO only drive 300 Miles each month--I really only drive so little because the gas $$ is so much with my vehicle (bought from my sister-in-law as I was desperate to find a car after my sale of my Honda Element).

I am still all for electric cars, but I am not prepared to wait another 10 years before something really useable and affordable comes out.

Just my 2 cents....



Ray

[Grendal]

That financial information is being somewhat misapplied. The 5.9 billion dollar loan was not designated solely for the Focus EV, but to improve fuel economy across Ford's product line. Also, Ford is already 14 billion dollars in debt. Remember, they narrowly escaped bankruptcy and are still paying for it. So they don't exactly have a surplus of extra money to spend.


Thanks for the info. I did know the ATVM money was for general mileage improvment but I still expected more from Ford. I still hope they kill with the FFE.

[SlowSRT4]

Someone's not been doing their research...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric

Focus EV Top Speed: 84 mph. Leaf: 93 (95 observed) mph.

Ford EV battery pack size: 23 kWh. Leaf: 24 kWh

Ford Ev L3 Support: None. Leaf: CHAdeMO (80% in 30 minutes)

Ford EV Curb Weight: 3700 lbs. Leaf: 3400 lbs.

Nissan makes updates to Leaf public:
http://www.autotrader.com/research/article/car-news/110309/nissan-updates-leaf-for-2012-2013.jsp

The two most relevant updates to this discussion, are L2 hardware that meets Ford's specs, and improved thermal management for the battery.

Do I think the one inch border around the touchscreen and the uber-sound system are going to make me forget the price premium of the Ford, along with its limited top speed, range and charging options?

No.

Nissan's made a huge commitment to making and supporting EV's. They've already shown what their next EV might be like, in their ESFLOW concept. Has Ford shown off their next EV concept yet? Nope.

And where are all the ads for the Focus EV??? Where is all the media hype for their new product!?!?!? It's November. They're supposed to be doing a limited rollout, and it's been pretty boring so far.

Ford clearly isn't interested in winning the EV market, IMHO... Not with specs like the above, and prices that aren't justified in the market as it currently stands.
Your responses are always hilarious. I "didn't do my research"? And that apparently consists of reading wikipedia and taking that as fact?

Fine, I will read the wikipedia page and use that as fact.

You stated the Focus EV is "a vehicle that has less range than a Leaf". However, the wiki page and other sources clearly state the Focus to have a 100 mile range (same as Leaf). So what exactly are you basing your information on?

Also, I like how you give the 3 mph bonus to the Leaf's top speed. It is plainly stated on Nissan's website and official specs that the top speed is 90 mph. And where is your "observed" top speed for the Focus? Try comparing apples to apples for a change.

Here is another example. You state "Ford EV battery pack size: 23 kWh. Leaf: 24 kWh". But the citation in the wikipedia page links to this article: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/ford-unveils-focus-electric-in-new-york-and-las-vegas/
The article states: "Ford said the car would have a 23.8 kilowatt-hour lithium-ion battery pack. It is liquid-cooled, not air-cooled, for better heat management."

So you basically disregarded every positive aspect I listed of the Focus and boiled it down to nothing more than a "one inch border around the touchscreen." Very clever of you indeed. Although I am now questioning if you know what a border is.

But you are right, all the positive merits of the Focus are completely meaningless. Who cares about a "one inch border" and some speakers and a bunch of other nonsense. No, what is really important is range and battery capacity. Surely the Leaf will offer more range than the Focus, despite the stated range being the same, and despite its lack of liquid cooling system. After all, it has a significantly larger battery pack, a whole .2 kWh!

I'm sure Focus EV owners will really be missing that .2 kWh when their car is charging TWICE as fast as the Leaf. So the Leaf will get an upgraded charger for the 2013 model year? That won't roll out until the second half of 2012. But again you state the Focus EV won't support any L3 charging. Even though Ford has stated they will adopt the SAE standard for L3 when it is finalized, which is set to happen 1Q 2012. As it stands, the Focus will have L3 charging before the Leaf gets decent L2 charging.

As for the marketing argument, my response is only a question. What does marketing have to do with the quality of the product? If you think that successful advertising indicates a quality product, then I have some revolutionary microfiber towels that hold 12 times their weight in liquid, which you might be interested in.

Kidding aside, I am arguing against your assertions that the Focus EV is a poor product. I won't bother to address arguments about marketing, corporate strategy, or financial standing. None of those things pertain to the quality of the actual product that we are evaluating. We, as consumers, should be comparing the products against each other and determining which one to buy based on their own merits. Ford's financial situation, for example, has no influence on my decision of which car to purchase.

[SEGsby]

Facts are hilarious? I guess they could be, if you somehow accept a manufacture's estimate of range as 100% valid, even though it's known that:

1. The Ford product's curb weight is heavier by 300 lbs, over the Leaf. This is a published fact. That's why you have links to verify the information.

2. Bigger motors consume more power, even if they are speed limited about 10 mph less than the Leaf's top speed. This is also a fact.

3. The Ford Product has a smaller battery pack, compared to the Leaf. This is also easily verified information.

4. The Ford product appears to be using less tricks at drag reduction, then the Leaf design...

So, where exactly do you think the extra efficiency is coming from, for the Ford Focus EV to get anything close to their estimated range of 100 miles per charge? Magic pixie dust?

I'm betting one will be lucky to get 65-75 miles on the Focus, with a strong wind blowing behind you, while driving downhill.

;)

[BryanSR]

You come to this conclusion based on nothing but speculation.

Based on a few select factors that you are not even sure of (weight, range, L3 charging, cargo space) you assume that the value proposition is extremely low. Meanwhile, ignoring any items that aren't in the Leaf's favor.

L3 charging: Ford will adopt the new SAE standard for L3, possibly even before the launch date (new SAE standard set to be finalized 1st quarter 2012). This standard will be more widespread by far in the US. This can easily be considered an advantage to the Focus, as the Leaf's L3 charging plug could see diminished support. Also, your hypocrisy is showing. You criticize the Focus for not outfitting a L3 charger (as of yet), but don't criticize the Leaf's inferior L2 charging due to the future availability of an update kit (with unknown price or launch date). SAE compliant L3 charging could more than likely be added to the Focus pre-launch, or post-launch as well. Furthermore, I would argue that L2 charging is far more important than L3 charging for the foreseeable future.

Arguably, the ~4k price premium of the Focus can be justified by its feature set.

8 inch touchscreen nav on Focus vs 7 inch touchscreen nav on Leaf
92 kW motor vs 80 kW motor
6.6 kW L2 charging vs 3.3 kW L2
L3 SAE vs L3 CHAdeMO
HD Radio
9 speaker Sony sound system vs 6 speaker Nissan generic system
seats from 100% recycled material vs seats partially containing recycled material
produced in 100% emission-free factory (solar array + Transit Connect EV transport trucks) vs reduced-emission, partially environmentally-friendly factory
built in US, lithium from Canada (minimal shipping involved, reduced environmental impact) vs shipping many resources to Japan, building there, and shipping completed cars here (increased environmental impact)
17 inch aluminum wheels vs 16 inch
liquid thermal regulation for battery pack vs air circulation
fully independent Control Blade SLA rear suspension vs torsion bar rear axle
premium luxury Aston Martin / Ford kinetic style vs catfish-inspired ugliness

They each have their pro's and con's. How you can claim the Focus to be a dud already is beyond me. At this point, with the information available to me, both cars are absolutely fantastic. Which one is better is a matter of personal preference.
BESIDES... it is MUCH better looking than the "CATFISH" look of the Leaf & Juke (which rhymes with PUKE!!!!!)
JMHO :aptera:

[SlowSRT4]

Facts are hilarious? I guess they could be, if you somehow accept a manufacture's estimate of range as 100% valid, even though it's known that:

1. The Ford product's curb weight is heavier by 300 lbs, over the Leaf. This is a published fact. That's why you have links to verify the information.

2. Bigger motors consume more power, even if they are speed limited about 10 mph less than the Leaf's top speed. This is also a fact.

3. The Ford Product has a smaller battery pack, compared to the Leaf. This is also easily verified information.

4. The Ford product appears to be using less tricks at drag reduction, then the Leaf design...

So, where exactly do you think the extra efficiency is coming from, for the Ford Focus EV to get anything close to their estimated range of 100 miles per charge? Magic pixie dust?

I'm betting one will be lucky to get 65-75 miles on the Focus, with a strong wind blowing behind you, while driving downhill.

;)
It humors me how you completely ignore the majority of my post and fail to acknowledge any of the numerous points in which you are proven wrong.

But, alas, I grow weary of arguing this topic ad infinitum. As far as I'm concerned, I have made my point and you have made yours. Our arguments are stated for everyone to see. So, I will admit that you are right. The Focus EV is an atrocity and Detroit sucks so bad. I'll leave it at that.

[SEGsby]

Your post is ignorable, until you have facts to support your statements. Otherwise, you're simply trolling...

[rayfellow]

Personally, I find all the information, back and forth quite informative. Thank you both for getting to the details noting the differences. Time will tell which machine proves to be the best value.

REgards

[SEGsby]

Ford's clearly not the value leader at present. Its product seems like a halfhearted attempt to follow in other automaker's shoes... Even the front of the Focus, looks like a poor-mans version of the Tesla Model S.

And for a mere $10,000 more-- why not just get the vastly superior Tesla? That's what the market will say.

But aesthetics alone, isn't worth a premium price.

I could live with a carp that that goes 10 mph faster on the highway, when I'm trying to pass someone...

[SlowSRT4]

And for a mere $10,000 more-- why not just get the vastly superior Tesla? That's what the market will say.
The Tesla is not a "mere $10,000 more" you silly goose. I will let your brain take a moment to comprehend why the actual price difference is not $10,000.

I could live with a carp that that goes 10 mph faster on the highway, when I'm trying to pass someone...
Enjoy your ticket for reckless driving. ;)

[SEGsby]

You've never lane changed in LA traffic on the freeway, have you... Average speed is typically 80 (sans traffic jams). You think you're really gonna be able to pass someone with a whole 4 mph more? These real world driving limitations imposed by the Focus's hardware, are going to kill it in the market. And it's likely the Focus will cause accidents-- because it can't physically keep up with everyone else.

$7500 Fed credit minus the 160 mile range Tesla S (US $57400), is $ 49,900. Ford's automatically made the Tesla a much more attractive product, by overpricing their inferior EV conversion. Think about that for a bit.

If you really want an overpriced, under performing Ford EV so bad, you can reserve a Focus now:

http://www.ford.com/electric/focuselectric/2012/

:jumping0001:

[jhm614]

$7500 Fed credit minus the 160 mile range Tesla S (US $57400), is $ 49,900. Ford's automatically made the Tesla a much more attractive product, by overpricing their inferior EV conversion. Think about that for a bit.


Remember the Focus will qualify for the same tax credit, so the price difference stays the same...

Model S - 57,400 - $7,500 = 49,900
Base FFE - 39,995 - $7,500 = 32,405

The Model S is definitely worth the price difference (IMHO) but it will put it out reach of some folks. Like me, for example.

[SEGsby]

Yeah, I know. :)

[PatQ562]

You've never lane changed in LA traffic on the freeway, have you... Average speed is typically 80 (sans traffic jams). You think you're really gonna be able to pass someone with a whole 4 mph more? These real world driving limitations imposed by the Focus's hardware, are going to kill it in the market. And it's likely the Focus will cause accidents-- because it can't physically keep up with everyone else.

If traffic is moving at 80mph you don't really need to pass anyone. The EV1 was limited to 80 and it rarely held me back. A few times I wished it could do 85. That said I'm not much interested in an EV conversion of an already heavy ICE car.

Pat Q

[randyd]

That said I'm not much interested in an EV conversion of an already heavy ICE car.

Me either. What is your "leading candidate" at the moment?

[PatQ562]

What is your "leading candidate" at the moment?
"None of the above" unfortunately. I can afford a Model S if I like the way it drives but it's actually a much bigger car than I need. The Aptera would have been something of a toy but if it held up I could have used it for daily commuting. None of the other wannabes are aiming for a world-class goal, or show any signs of actually getting anywhere. The VW 1L would be interesting if it comes out.

Oh Well

In the DIY category, Vectrix is marketing a LiPO super-scooter rated for 68mph and freeway legal, with a 2.8kWh or 5.4kWh battery, for $12K-$14K. It has a tidy looking hub motor alongside the rear wheel with a swing-arm suspension, so it meets my personal criteria of a sealed powertrain. Next year they are supposed to market a 3-wheeler with rather closely spaced front wheels and the same saddle-type seating. This version does not require a motorcycle endorsement in CA (but still needs a helmet). If this actually comes out, it suggests a home conversion project to a low-slung single car seat, wider front wheels, and a streamlined closed canopy. Presumably most of the wheel hardware and the rear end could be retained. Such a vehicle, while quite limited in its mission, could exceed the Aptera efficiency bar due to minimal size and frontal area, and would be a good study as a before-and-after streamlining project.

Pat Q

[rayfellow]

Me either. What is your "leading candidate" at the moment?

I like the route of the Edison VLC. It's a completely different shape, yielding a low drag coefficient, weighs in at under 1,200 pounds, carries 4 passengers, in a pinch anyway, and is being built with low cost materials.

The VLC has a steep hill to climb in passing crash tests, and in acceptance in the market. I believe the low cost, high efficency will make it acceptable over time. Their crash tests should prove to be interesting. Their contention is that the out rigger wheels will provide the necessary crumple zone.

The VLC has quite a ways to go before it will see the market. Too bad, I want one

[SEGsby]

Still curious about the "Jasonized" Studio 11 redesign...

[AlfredWAB]

I've been following the Ford vehicles closely because I can get Fleet Pricing due to my employer.

I gave up on Aptera and all the others coming to market anytime soon and bought the Ford Fusion Hybrid over a year ago now. I am very happy with that vehicle for the family car.

However, I'm still looking for a "Personal Commute Vehicle". And the Ford Focus EV is definitely NOT that. I need a vehicle that will got about 20 miles per day and can carry a few things or a 2nd person on occasion. Why do we have SO many big vehicles with 1 person in them all over the roads? And why can't we get any of these super efficient Personal vehicles to market? I want one, I'm sold. Why is it taking so long?

My favorite is still the Evaro. I liked the Aptera enough to put a deposit on it a long time ago. I like the Edison. I like Persu Mobility. Can't we just get it all together and make one of these things? Frustrated . . . .

[Grendal]

As I've mentioned before, I'm in no rush so I'm thinking hard about the Tesla 30K mass market vehicle due out in 2015ish. I'd still like an Aptera but I don't see it happening. Maybe the VLC if it's priced right and looks reasonable.

[SlowSRT4]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/14/ford-says-focus-electric-will-get-100-mpge-c-max-models-also-re/

More efficient than the Leaf? Say it isn't so...

Let's hear what all the naysayers have to say about this efficient, locally-sourced, solar-power manufactured, 100% recycled seating, pure electric vehicle...

[Jack5297]

All of ;you electric car afficianos, are like those who waited for the Aptera. :You better have your bottle of tranquilizers handy, while you watch the electric charge remaining guage while driving. Lithium battery car is not the answer. It is only an interim step.

[SEGsby]

Interim step to what? Portable nuclear batteries?

[Jack5297]

Interim step to what? Portable nuclear batteries?
Interim step to hydrogen or natural gas. We have an abundent supply of natural gas. Buses and heavy vehicles are now running on it. Honda has produced a prototype of one.

With electric cars, who is going to generate the additional energy to charge their batteries and where are we going to dump the used up batteries and who is going to pay the big price for lithium and what will the value of the car be when it approaches the end of the battery useful life??

[chijayhawker]

Interim step to hydrogen or natural gas. We have an abundent supply of natural gas. Buses and heavy vehicles are now running on it. Honda has produced a prototype of one.

With electric cars, who is going to generate the additional energy to charge their batteries and where are we going to dump the used up batteries and who is going to pay the big price for lithium and what will the value of the car be when it approaches the end of the battery useful life??

Jack, it seems you are giving into mis-information regarding battery vehicles and the propaganda about hydrogen vehicles.

Currently available hydrogen vehicles get barely any more range out of a full tank than the electric vehicles that are available today, so I don't see the advantage for hydrogen. For that matter, there are fewer hydrogen stations than there are charging stations, again, no advantage to hydrogen.

There doesn't need to be any "additional" energy that needs to be generated for battery vehicles. Most of the time battery vehicles are going to be charged over night when there is a surplus of energy being generated at power plants. Batteries at the end of their life as a vehicle's energy source can be re-purposed for other applications and most of the time completely recycled. Lithium is expensive, but mainly becuase there isn't as much mass production of it. An electric vehicle will have the same value as an old gasoline car that might need a new engine. Its not like once the battery of an electric vehicle has reached its end of life that you throw away the whole car, you just replace the battery, and it drives on. Just like you might have to do for a gas engine that needs to be replaced.

As an EV enthusiast...I would think you would know these things.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hydrogen has several major problems: the two ways to make it are steam reforming of natural gas and electrolysis, and neither one is very good. Why use energy to change natural gas to hydrogen? And it takes at least 3X as much electricity to make hydrogen than if you just use it directly in EV's.

Hydrogen is incredibly unstable, hard to compress, offers virtually the same range as EV's, presents huge safety issues, costs way more than an EV, and the fuel cells wear out fairly quickly. Hydrogen cars are basically EV's with a hydrogen powered range extender, so they have batteries and an electric drivetrain like EV's -- but also have hydrogen storage tanks and a fuel cell, too. So they will always cost more.

And natural gas is not renewable, and now that it takes fracking to get it out of the ground it produces more carbon and has many other problems, like poisoned ground water. No thanks!

Electricity can be renewable and will be available for about a billion years -- as long as the earth exists. Electricity is pure energy, and doesn't need to be converted into another form before it is used to produce torque.

[SEGsby]

If we didn't have evil people in the world, we could have nuclear batteries... :(

[TruthSeeker]

If we didn't have evil people in the world, we could have nuclear batteries... :(
What happens if the Nuclear Powered Car in an a Car Accident and the Nuclear Power Batteries are ripped open and all the radioactivity is spread? How would a fire dept. clean up that mess?

[Grendal]

With 1950's school desks. They are the perfect shield for radioactivity.

Duck and Cover.



Too obscure a reference?
:sign0006:

[NmGfan]

Only for those that weren't there.
The central hallway in my elementary school was the Duck and Cover location of choice in those days. Only after watching Mickey Rooney try to hide from a Nuclear Blast in that fake town in Nevada did I realize the central hallway was NOT the place to be. Nice charade we all bought into back then...

:happy0025:

[SEGsby]

Duck and Cover! Awesome! ;)

4Yt877r5bFQ

ZdxibxcTc6U

There is unfortunately, no sarcasm font. ;)

[Grendal]

"...might cause a meltdown on Main St." Fabulous.

Check out the tailfins on that babe! :ashamed0002:

[PatQ562]

We were promised! In the 1950's Ford published pictures showing "a happy family flying their 1999 Ford to the moon"!

Pat Q

[c0mp13x]

Focus EV assembly video:

http://www.plugincars.com/watch-ford-focus-electric-roll-down-assembly-line-111324.html

A year ago, I was so pumped-up for this nice looking EV... then the price was announced. Even with the tax credit, it's really $10k too expensive for what it is.

Yes, yes... I know, I know... converted ICE vehicle = heavy, not optimized for EV use. Heavy = large battery to get decent range. Heavy + large battery = expensive. A formula for low volume sales and EV failure?

Who's going to buy this thing now?

:(