Aptera Webcast with Paul Wilbur, Marques McCammon and a Testdrive

[Matthijs]

http://apps.attainresponse.com/home/TWhitener@vmdirect.com/LiveF5_Schedules/

Do not know any further details.

Direct link to the recording: http://apps.attainresponse.com/MediaF5/liveRecording.htm?id=90328

[palmer_md]

too bad you caught it about 2 hours late.

[Matthijs]

Strange because it's not in the archives yet. And still in the announcements department. Maybe Paul didn't show up? :p

[palmer_md]

Strange because it's not in the archives yet. And still in the announcements department. Maybe Paul didn't show up? :p

From reading his twitter account it sounds like it was prerecorded, or at least there was a ride in the car that was pre-recorded.

http://twitter.com/happytravler


First Global Showcase broadcast is Sat. 2pm @www.Power2You.tv. See the Aptera Car, 100+miles to a charge. Wild ride at end with CEO.
about 6 hours ago via API

ESP 1 of Global Showcase today at 2:00pm pacific time @www.Power2You.tv Tune in and see the Aptera battery car.
about 6 hours ago via API

First Global Showcase broadcast is Sat. 2pm @www.Power2You.tv. See the Aptera Car, 100+miles to a charge. Wild ride at end with CEO.
11:47 AM Apr 2nd via API

[jcodeglia]

"237 MPGe" Pretty specific number.

[Matthijs]

http://i39.tinypic.com/iwsoib.jpg

Technical difficulties prevented the first show of GlobalShowcase being broadcasted. Will try again today @2pm (http://twitter.com/2pm) pacific time. Power2you.tv http://twitter.com/HappyTravler/status/11651877383

That is in less than 1 hour no?

[jsnable]

Yes, 20 minutes from now...

Jay

[Matthijs]

On the air now!

[SEGsby]

That was fun, but I only caught the tail end of it. :(

Marques did say again, that they were going to build the Aptera in the US...

I dunno if that's just for the US market, or what. But again, it's directly contrary to what the author of the Chinese article has reported and verified was said there.

Hmm.

[jay92604]

According to the interview with Paul they will build in US for US market and China for Chinese market.

hear the interview at www.techxsw.com

[Matthijs]

That was fun, but I only caught the tail end of it. :(

Marques did say again, that they were going to build the Aptera in the US...

I dunno if that's just for the US market, or what. But again, it's directly contrary to what the author of the Chinese article has reported and verified was said there.

Hmm.

But that is what Marques said at the event, not what PW said to Namrita Chow in Shanghai. But was it said before or after he went to China?

[SEGsby]

Ah. No idea, sorry.

[Matthijs]

http://i41.tinypic.com/537a0x.jpg

[jcodeglia]

Their TV was stretched a bit too wide.

[SEGsby]

Ungh. I do not like the straight "cut off" style of the new skirts for the wheel pants.

Gently bow the center down twards the rim, where it's less likely to hit anything, and it won't look so god-awful fugly. See PP6 for reference. :P

[KarenRei]

Their TV was stretched a bit too wide.

One can only hope ;)

[NeilBlanchard]

Yeah, it looks like a 4:3 image widened to fit a 16:10 screen...

[butter]

I disagree that it's been stretched; look at the Aptera logo: if it had been stretched it wouldn't still look circular, but more ovalesque. Also the word "Aptera" next to the logo wouldn't look exactly the same as it does at the top of our forum pages here.

Well, upon closer inspection, I suppose the circular logo does look a tiny bit less circular than it ought to, but not nearly enough that would excuse the strangely elongated vehicle diagram. Ah well, a simple diagram doesn't have to be a perfect rendition to get the point of urethane bumpers across.

[jcodeglia]

Also, I was there and the presenter mentioned he had stretching. And on his laptop it was appearing correctly, and not cropped, etc.

[Grendal]

I disagree that it's been stretched; look at the Aptera logo: if it had been stretched it wouldn't still look circular, but more ovalesque. Also the word "Aptera" next to the logo wouldn't look exactly the same as it does at the top of our forum pages here.

Well, upon closer inspection, I suppose the circular logo does look a tiny bit less circular than it ought to, but not nearly enough that would excuse the strangely elongated vehicle diagram. Ah well, a simple diagram doesn't have to be a perfect ratio.

The logo looks stretched to me also...

[NeilBlanchard]

The Aptera logo is an oval:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/NeilBlanchard/Screenshot2010-04-05at65205PM.png

[10.5]

It is stretched, but only slightly so.
Is this the S0-1?
A bit stretched. I shall call it stretchy.

Why does it say 'Confidential' on the bottom?

[CyberBill]

The picture is from the March 27th event. They had it displayed on a screen inside of the restaurant and the presenter said it was being stretched.

From my understanding the picture is of the final S0-1 design. The entire presentation had 'Confidential' on the bottom... but the whole idea of saying it is confidential is kind of lost since it was being held at an event open to the public. :P

[Matthijs]

It says confidential because it's older material we first saw on 11-01-2009 in the Aptera War room video: http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=38883&postcount=2

nVsg6CYd1L8
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVsg6CYd1L8)

[Matthijs]

What I did not notice before is that in my opinion the roll down windows are poorly executed. Look at this bit here:

http://i39.tinypic.com/256h9jo.jpg

So now your window is pretty small and your B-pillar is even "thicker" then before. More opinions about this?

[palmer_md]

I hope your wrong. That would be an awful setup. I hope that that dark section is at least glass, even if it does not move. If I remember correctly, that is about where you head would be, so it would completely eliminate your peripheral vision. You'd definitely need the 3 monitors in front of you to be sure the "blind spot" is clear.

[palmer_md]

It's not quite as bad as I thought. Your head is a little forward of where that divider is going to be, but still creates a much larger blind spot due to the enlarged b-pilar.


https://www.aptera.com/sites/default/files/pics/0012.jpg

[SEGsby]

This is why we need to see the S0-1... April 14th should prove to be quite interesting.

After so many PP versions, I do find it hard to believe this will be the only one of it's kind, before production starts.

[palmer_md]

After so many PP versions, I do find it hard to believe this will be the only one of it's kind, before production starts.

How soon do you think they are going to start production? I don't believe they are very close, and it would be smart to just build one now and based on the results of that, make some modifications before building a bunch of preproduction prototypes. Just like they built one show car that Steve was driving around before the built the small run of preproduction prototypes.

[Matthijs]

Ah. No idea, sorry.

I just listened to the podcast, and MM said that PW just returned from Shanghai so it was after the China report. What happens in China stays in China...

I found a nice comment from someone on abg:

Poor Wilbur. He was sure that he could tailor his pitch depending on where he was on the globe.

In China: "China rocks! You guys are so good, we're going to build our cars here and ship them back to the USA, where the auto industry sucks. By the way, can you lend us some money?"

In the USA: "USA rocks! We're an all American company producing a superior product right here in California. By the way, can you lend us some money?"

That kind of nonsense doesn't work in the age of the Internet.

[DaveCodeglia]

At the event, the designers said the visibility to the rear would be improved. Hopefully this means that the black sliver in the back of the side window is either glass, exaggerated due to the TV stretching, or well out of the way and doesn't block seeing the blind spot. The colors represent material type, not appearance.

Hopefully.

[SEGsby]

The rear quarter panel windows were made larger.

So was the rear window in the cargo hatch door (along with the entire top and solar panel area).

I'm anxious to see how the redesigned rear hatch opens. Tilting to the side was a poor solution, imho.

[DaveCodeglia]

Someone at the event last month said the trunk will open up, not to the side.

[KarenRei]

I personally liked the side opening...

[DaveCodeglia]

Yeah, me too. I feel like it would make it easier to load stuff toward the seats.

[Matthijs]

I liked it because of: Less of a loading moment on the composite structure than if it were hinged at the top. Hinging at the top would have required a lanyard to pull it down, and larger (heavier) nitrogen pressure cylinders.


http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=361&postcount=20

[plainar]

I liked it because of:

http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=361&postcount=20

An efficient engineer would like it for this reason too. I get why the side opening was a good solution. I think this change falls under the let's make the Aptera more mainstream which will justify the delays.

Now that it opens up, it speaks Detroit convention. I'm disappointed in this news :(

[SEGsby]

I'm excited.

60+mph winds are not uncommon here on the coast, or even inland, during Santa Annas. A side opening door could act as a DOIM (Dangerous Object In Motion). Who wants a concussion while they're leaning in, or even broken fingers from a slamming side-mounted hatch?

Plus, you have more choice in how you install and remove cargo, since the door is now completely out of the way to allow access from either side. Tilting the door up on it's side, creates a barrier between you and your cargo.

This change makes my cello happy... Mainstream in this case, is perfectly desirable to me. :)

[RainCaster]

My guitars would have been happier with a side-opening hatch. It reminds them of the old XKE design.

[palmer_md]

60+mph winds are not uncommon here on the coast, or even inland, during Santa Annas. A side opening door could act as a DOIM (Dangerous Object In Motion). Who wants a concussion while they're leaning in, or even broken fingers from a slamming side-mounted hatch?

Plus, you have more choice in how you install and remove cargo, since the door is now completely out of the way to allow access from either side. Tilting the door up on it's side, creates a barrier between you and your cargo.

This change makes my cello happy... Mainstream in this case, is perfectly desirable to me. :)

It sounds like you thought they were not going to put gas shocks on the door with it side mounted. The wind will have a easier time blowing the roof mounted hinged door because it will make a much longer lever, sticking up into the wind much further. With a roof mounted hinge, side access will be limited due to the gas shocks. You may only have rear access with the roof mounted hinge. With the side mounted hinge you would have had total rear access as well as complete access from the passenger side of the car. Shock locations (side access) will depend on how far open they let the door hinge. I'd like it to open fairly far. We'll see how the final solution works out, but I did like the side mounted hinge. Not really a game changing factor really.

Side opening would have allowed you to put in a very tall object into the back and drive (slowly) with the hatch open (almost like a small pickup). Rear hinge will not likely allow it to open far enough to do that and the door would be pointing straight up if it did.

[KarenRei]

Side opening would have allowed you to put in a very tall object into the back and drive (slowly) with the hatch open (almost like a small pickup). Rear hinge will not likely allow it to open far enough to do that and the door would be pointing straight up if it did.

Yep. It's better to have an oversized object stretch out vertically than horizontally. Horizontally will get you into accidents. ;) Plus, the natural shape of the trunk lends itself to oversized vertical objects, not horizontal.

Meh, not the biggest issue in the world. But undoubtedly they added weight in making the change, and I don't like that either.

[Rat]

Top hinged is much better since it brings the door out of the way and allows for approach to the rear from either side. Aptera has made clear from day 1 that the production hatch lid would hinge at the top. This has been mentioned many times on this forum.

[KarenRei]

Top hinged is much better since it brings the door out of the way and allows for approach to the rear from either side. Aptera has made clear from day 1 that the production hatch lid would hinge at the top. This has been mentioned many times on this forum.

Huh? Just the opposite:

http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=361&postcount=20

Hello All,

Wanted to say thanks for starting the forum (we're still working on the myAptera forum...not as hard as we are working on the vehicles :-))

As to the hatch. The side opening was really for two reasons:

1) Safety. It forces you to the sidewalk when loading and unloading. Safer than in the rear, and safer than the street! (hinges go on the other side for British commonwealth countries)

2) Less of a loading moment on the composite structure than if it were hinged at the top. Hinging at the top would have required a lanyard to pull it down, and larger (heavier) nitrogen pressure cylinders.

Hope this helps,

Steve

[Matthijs]

That is what I linked to a couple of posts back. It was designed with efficiency in mind that's why I liked it.

[SEGsby]

I'm okay with it being a bit heavier for the added loading / unloading flexibility. I don't like the idea of being forced to use one side of the car to access cargo.

The new design is safer for carrying taller items too, as the door is always centered over the cargo, not off on the side as it was initially. 4 contact points make the hatch more stable in high wind situations, and for driving with it open but tied down. Wind and other stresses are now equalized, and you'd get much better aero if the hatch wasn't closed completely.

The ubiquitous hatch design is mainstream for a reason. Different for it's own sake, is not always a better solution.

[KarenRei]

A couple points worth consideration here. Do recall that this is not a normal shaped hatch. Here's a normal hatchback:

http://weburbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/hauling-boat-with-hatchback.jpg

Compare that to the Aptera hatch:

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/aptera-2e-leak_100229719_l.jpg

Note the primary difference: long and narrow. I don't think there's a single hatchback out there with anywhere near that extreme of an aspect ratio.

Now, stop and think of levers for a moment. What does long and narrow mean to horizontal loading? It means you're exerting a *lot* more force on the mounting point if you top mount the door -- but little force if you side mount it. If you want to top mount it, hence, you'll have to not only handle the weight of additional cylinders, like Steve mentioned, but also reinforce the heck out of the roof. So you're getting to the point of where your roof may be as heavy as a normal steel roof.

Also, stop and think about usage for a second. With such a long, low slope, and the tall side walls, think of how far "up" such a hatch has to go for you to be able to put things into the trunk on the cabin side (as opposed to the tail side). At least, what, a 30 degree angle from the horizontal, preferably more? Now think of how far up that hatch will be at the tail end. Maneuvering the hatch when it's that far up would be anything but easy. Basically, it either opens really high at the tail end or you can't easily access the space on the passenger end.

Basically, compare the normal hatchback to the Aptera, and you can see why the Aptera's hatch will be a lot more awkward opening vertically than a normal hatchback. A normal hatchback has a relatively steep slope in the back. The Aptera has an extremely shallow slope -- more like opening a chest. People seem to make the "normal hatchback" argument when talking about the vertical opening, but there's nothing "normal" about a shape like the back of the Aptera opening vertically.

And even if you wanted to go with a vertical hatch for some reason: is this really a change that needed to go in version 1.0?

[SEGsby]

There is a metal roll cage bar built into the cabin, right where the roof can support the minimal hatch load. Note that all the weight from the door is NOT shouldered alone by the hinge, but also by the 2 side air shocks in the door frame. That makes 4 points to distribute the weight now, instead of 2. So I don't get why you're complaining about roof stresses, when the cabin of the vehicle was designed to be crush resistant if it flips over. I would think a strong roof would be a favorable thing in an accident... So your argument makes no sense to me, sorry.

Totally not worried about the height of the hatch when it's open. A long door should not have to be as angled to have the cargo area accessible from the rear. Lets have some faith that they'll match the entry angle to the shape of the car. :) Wheel Pants on the other hand-- those still need to be tweaked some more, IMHO.

I'm confident when it's unveiled, the new cargo door will be perfect for hauling my cello, which lays down horizontally in my VW bug :)

[KarenRei]

There is a metal roll cage bar built into the cabin, right where the roof can support the minimal hatch load.

When I mention hatch load, note that I'm talking about *lateral* loads, not the weight of the hatch. I.e., something pushing against it to the side and ripping the attachment points off the structure. We're not talking compressive strength -- we're talking shear. The hatch is a giant lever, and the connection point narrow. There's not another vehicle on the market that has a rear hatch like this, and that's for a reason. The narrower your connection points, the more the lateral stress. The longer your hatch, the more the lateral stress. This has both of those to the extreme.

Reinforcing a structure to resist a particular load doesn't mean it's going to be stronger against others. In fact, it can often be weaker as a consequence, depending on the loads in question. Trying to make hinge attachment points resist unnecessarily large lateral loads will do nothing to help your roof crush strength.

Note that all the weight from the door is NOT shouldered alone by the hinge, but also by the 2 side air shocks in the door frame.

Pneumatic shocks are not structural elements. They do not add significant resistance to lateral loads.

I would think a strong roof would be a favorable thing in an accident...

Increasing shear strength in order to stop the hatch from twisting off under lateral loads doesn't increase roof crush strength. It just increases roof weight.

Totally not worried about the height of the hatch when it's open. A long door should not have to be as angled to have the cargo area accessible from the rear. Lets have some faith that they'll match the entry angle to the shape of the car. :)

"Match the entry angle to the shape of the car"? I'm not sure what you mean by that. What angle relative to horizontal are you picturing? If you're picturing a low angle, you can't fit large objects in on the side near the hinges -- they have to go in at the far rear. If you're picturing a high angle, the open hatch will stick way into the air at the tail.

Do an image search (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=hatchback%20open%20hatch&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi) of open hatchbacks and you'll notice an interesting property. For the convenience of owners, the angle between the side walls of the trunk and the fully open hatch is generally in the ballpark of 60-90 degrees. This is to meet two constraints: head clearance when loading (not a problem for the 2e) and clearance for loading large objects from the side (definitely an issue for the 2e). But try applying an angle anywhere near 60 degrees (or more) to the long, narrow 2e hatch and it'll stick way into the air. So you pretty much are forced to use a narrower-than-normal maximum opening angle (even 30 degrees would be really high up at the tail), which means poorer side access. Of course, with a regular hatchback, you can fully load it directly from the rear -- not so much for the 2e, however (unless you have ridiculously long arms).

Basically, picture a long, narrow chest. What Aptera has done is like putting the hinges of the chest on the narrow side. It's backwards from the logical engineering solution, in a manner that carries both mass and practicality consequences, in order to fit some standard that the shape of the hatch defies. Top-hinging hatchbacks don't have hatches shaped like that.

[NeilBlanchard]

The other nice thing about having it hinged at the top is that the open door will partially shelter the opening from rain and snow, etc.

I think the weight of the 2e hatch door is moot -- it is probably just a fraction of the weight of the Taurus hatch shown above, and probably less than almost any hatch on a current car. The struts will be positioned to get enough leverage, and since it is relatively long and relatively flat (not bent like the Taurus), it only has to open 25-35 degrees to provide enough space. This will put it up to just above horizontal.

[KarenRei]

Again, I'm not talking about the weight of the door being supported (although that does affect the mass of the pneumatic cylinders you have to use). I'm talking about the lateral loading (i.e., if a person or object pushes it side to side). Durable objects must be built to withstand forces in all directions that they might be exerted. To achieve that with such a long, narrow hatch means extreme reinforcing of the hinge attachments against lateral motion, which gives you a roof far heavier than it needs to be. We're not talking about the weight of the door, but of the reinforcements. You're talking something like 4x the lateral loads of a traditional hatchback, on a vehicle where keeping it light is essential. And while your composite shell will do an excellent job distributing compressive loads around, it's not going to help you in this regard; you're shearing. Aptera already had to build their own custom door hinges for the vehicles.

To keep it in perspective, do remember that weight equals range. So you're subtracting range by doing this. Or, conversely, weight equals battery pack, so you're adding cost and increasing charging time by doing this.

30 degrees won't give you much room near where it hinges. So you'll have to put large objects in further back, then slide them forward, rather than just setting them where they go. Do note that this is a vehicle that would be difficult (even if there was *no* door) to load from the back due to the length of its trunk space. So it's going to be something that you'll generally be loading from the side, except for perhaps very long objects which you'd be sliding in anyway (like the aforementioned cello). You're not going to be, say, loading a full trunk of groceries completely from the back unless you want to be pushing bags of groceries with other bags of groceries and sort of cramming them in there.

The rain advantage is real. Weigh that as you will.

[Antjel]

I do agree with Karen on the lateral vulnerability. It's simple leverage and it's what can give an "impression" of a vehicle.

"That Aptera is a cool vehicle but I was closing the trunk and it felt like I was going to break it!"

Little things like that could ruin the durability and impression of the vehicle.

With that said I think the point of increment weather and the rare occasion of driving it with the hatch open weighs in more on my scale. I would prefer to deal with a balanced hatch when driving with it open and tied down. I just feel this would be safer from an aero perspective and even if the hatch is sticking straight up it's only at risk of destroying my range (which I can't imagine hyper miling with oversized cargo) and slamming shut from wind resistance. I'm not sure if I would feel comfortable with a hatch swung out to one side even if tied down.

My guess (and this is just my own opinion) is Steve's original design was to never have the hatch open under any circumstance while driving. This would fall in line with his quest for efficiency. For some of us that would work but there is always that one day when you need to make something fit that just won't.

And lastly to contradict myself once more. I would have taken an Aptera without a hatch if it would get me one faster, all I care about is A/C and enough range to get me to work and back on a single charge. :thumbsup:

Antjel

[randyd]

30 degrees won't give you much room near where it hinges. So you'll have to put large objects in further back, then slide them forward, rather than just setting them where they go.

How could you say that, when you still remember this:
Do note that this is a vehicle that would be difficult (even if there was *no* door) to load from the back due to the length of its trunk space.

There is *NO* way I will want to lift anything, let alone a large object, near the hinge. My back just isn't that strong. My personal estimation is that the furthest forward I will want to stand when putting things in the back will be even with or just aft of the rear wheel.

So it's going to be something that you'll generally be loading from the side, except for perhaps very long objects which you'd be sliding in anyway (like the aforementioned cello).

This has been one of my concerns about the Aptera all along, but I always resigned myself to that inconvenience as one of the prices I will pay for having such a head-turning and innovated vehicle.

And regarding the rain, the hatch will only add protection if the rain is coming straight down, and there is some kind of gutter around the perimeter of the door to keep the rain from just falling from the door into the back. In other words, I weigh that feature very, very lightly.

Personally, I would prefer a side hinge, but this is so far down in the list of preferences, I am surprised I even commented on it.:sign0007:

[plainar]

I'm on the side of Steve's design since no else on the forum has driven the Aptera in a real world situation. Any of you loaded an Aptera with groceries or your cello? Opening the hatch "up" is a convention we all understand, but it doesn't mean it's the best solution for the Aptera. PBW and co have changed so much on the car, it's hard to distinguish what was in the name of safety or in the name of ego. The delays will only be defensible once the Aptera is in production. (The so1 is not production.) PBW will defend his position until he's out of job.

I'm very amused by the posters here that excuse the delays so their own Aptera vision is supposedly realized. Aptera ran out of money and PBW said so himself. Some people have been on the pre-order list for over 2 years and they'll probably wait at least another year only if the DOE bails them out. The DOE will make sure you buy an Aptera that speaks convention so keep your place in line.

[KarenRei]

Eh, once again, it's an issue of "even if you think it's better..." (which I don't, obviously) "... it's something that should have been part of a later model revision rather than holding up the entire vehicle."

IMHO.

[KarenRei]

To further this discussion, Aptera has kindly provided an illustration:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/04/29aptera2epplive.jpg

Note that:

1) You can't load at the forwardmost foot because of limited space and the supports.
2) Anyone but Shaq would want a lanyard on that thing to make it easier to reach.
3) Does anyone *seriously* think that that'll keep the rain out to any realistic degree?

Again, all issues of added weight (and its effect on range) and reduced lateral strength (and thus durability) aside.

[SEGsby]

I like it! And I don't think it's really that tall. The car is short, and the people shown in the image are standing several feet away from the centerpoint of the vehicle. That makes them look smaller than they really are in comparison.

My beetle hatch has built in hand pulls built into the inside of the door, so I can reach in and have a way to pull it down... The Aptera needs some.

I would so rather have this than the original hatch design. :)

[NeilBlanchard]

I also think that the hatch doesn't need to open this wide to be usable.

Nobody has commented on the struts on the side doors? They make sense, but they are unexpected. I guess the Scarab door design and the head clearance and the space under the dash are what drove this design choice?

[Anthony]

2) Anyone but Shaq would want a lanyard on that thing to make it easier to reach.
I like that it opens wide. It means we can put large things in and tie the hatch down (for short halls). Also, tall people wont hit their heads on it.
I can't tell you how much it hurts to do that. We have a Jeep Cherokee SUV that opens up. I live in total fear of the back door when it is up. While unloading, I have hit my head hard enough to make it bleed.
The slight inconvenience of pulling on lanyard is nothing compared to head trauma. Please don't make them lower it.

[notooilateride]

At the Casrlsbad event I had occasion to sit in the vehicle and I did feel cramped. I am 6-1, 215 lbs. So if boxing in the more circular cross section, thus the more "blotted look" gives us more wiggle room I believe it is a good idea. It is still a lot lighter than Leaf or Coda and that means more efficiency, more sustainability. Lets face it, it is far removed from conventional looking so a little tweaking of the lines will not change that. I am still favoring Aptera.

[SEGsby]

The side doors are a lot of weight to have up in the air. The other issue is average people having the strength to do this on their own. It makes sense to incorporate them with all the moving glass in there now.

The more I look at the metal door hinges, the more tacky they look to me. This design element does not exist anywhere else on the body, and it calls too much attention to itself. I liked it better when they blended into the body.

[OC-LA driver]

I agree the hinges call attention to themselves. If they were body color at least they'd be invisible from a distance, but in brushed stainless they look like duct tape...not a good image. They look completely "stuck on" instead of gaps simply outlining a functional element.

[KarenRei]

I like that it opens wide. It means we can put large things in and tie the hatch down (for short halls). Also, tall people wont hit their heads on it.

I fail to understand how any of this would be different with a side opening hatch, which fully exposes the opening and has attachments that are far lighter and more durable.

[randyd]

Has the pneumatic tube for the side doors always been there? I swear it was some where else on previous models. Can they make them any more vulnerable to kicking?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Randy,

The pneumatic piston on the side doors is new -- the hinges are now on the surface; instead of the long arcing piece that went into the dash space. They allow the door to lift higher and at a better angle to clear people's heads, and so the strut became necessary.