Rankings for efficiency of pure EVs?

[butter]

Does anybody know a general "ranking" of efficiency for the pure EVs that are realistically slated to be released within the next two years?

I assume that the Aptera, even with its reduced efficiency (from its original design), is head and shoulders above the rest, but considering it may not realistically be sold in the very near future, I'd still like to know if anyone can help me filter through all the marketing babble and bells and whistles (fun as they may be) and just give me a general idea of the efficiency of the other EVs coming out soon.

Which EV should cost me the least in terms of my electricity bill? Can anyone put together a rough order, from most efficient to least?

Thanks in advance!!

[SlowSRT4]

I'm sure someone here on the forums could make a rough list based on certain data known about the cars.

The EPA numbers for EVs need to be finalized before we get something concrete.

[PatQ562]

I can see no further through a brick wall than the next person, but you can pretty much figure on the following:

1. All mainstream EV's will have a highly efficient power train and usable regeneration.
2. If your usage is primarily city stop-and-go, at moderate speeds, look for the lightest weight. I believe the Fiat 500 is the winner here (other than Aptera).
3. If you need a freeway flyer, look for the best streamlining. It's hard to tell which mainstream cars will excel here - they should all be "OK" but there could be significant differences.
4. The Myers Duo uses a less efficient powertrain which more-or-less negates probable advantages in weight and drag. The "Mainstream" cars will of course have the full benefit of modern safety and durability engineering by large companies. Even Aptera is highly focused on safety, but it will be years before we know what the reliability looks like.
5. The Triac is a fairly heavy and not-very-streamlined China-built 3-wheeler but does have some valid technology. Not really freeway-oriented however.
6. As more specs get published, the range and battery size will tell you much (a short range despite a large battery points to high losses).
7. Other than a fairly full-size footprint the Aptera should still excel on both duty cycles, especially freeway commuting. If they ever ship, of course.

Pat Q

[butter]

Awww, thanks for responding to my plaintive call, Pat Q. I was starting to fret that my question would be buried in this tiny corner of the forum.

I guess I'll just have to sit tight until more info comes out. I thought maybe you more-informed people knew stuff I didn't because you could make sense out of all the tech-y numbers and stats being batted around that mean nothing to me.

[SEGsby]

It's also 12:30 AM when you posted... Give the sleeping time to respond. ;)

[butter]

It's also 12:30 AM when you posted... Give the sleeping time to respond. ;)

I posted this thread at 1:47 pm (yesterday). Nearly 13 hours ago.

[SlowSRT4]

1. Aptera 2e
2. Fiat 500 EV
3. Mitsubishi iMiEV
4. Th!nk City
5. Ford Focus EV
6. Nissan Leaf
7. Chevrolet Volt

Some of these cars are very close in specs so it was hard to rank one above another. But I think that's about right.

[rayfellow]

1. Aptera 2e
2. Fiat 500 EV
3. Mitsubishi iMiEV
4. Th!nk City
5. Ford Focus EV
6. Nissan Leaf
7. Chevrolet Volt

Some of these cars are very close in specs so it was hard to rank one above another. But I think that's about right.

Is there a way to say XX number of watts per mile, or something @ say 60 mph on a level surface? It would be good to compare these EV's the same way we compare ICE cars.

[butter]

1. Aptera 2e
2. Fiat 500 EV
3. Mitsubishi iMiEV
4. Th!nk City
5. Ford Focus EV
6. Nissan Leaf
7. Chevrolet Volt

Some of these cars are very close in specs so it was hard to rank one above another. But I think that's about right.

Thanks for the rough list, SlowSRT4. While I realize it's a rough estimate based on what little information is out there (and which may still change before the final product), what I appreciate about this simple ranking by efficiency is how it could help me make my decision better. Seeing the Leaf at the bottom, only better than the Volt, makes me think twice now about jumping eagerly to snap one up as soon as possible. I'm a big sufferer of buyer's regret, so I know that if I get the Leaf later this year or early next year, only to see Ford come out with a Focus EV shortly thereafter that is more efficient, I'll really be bellyaching about it to myself.

Anyway, thanks again for the rough rankings, and I do hope they will be refined (if necessary) as more specs come out. This is extremely useful.

[SlowSRT4]

Yes, I gave the benefit of the doubt to the Ford Focus. With the new Focus, Ford is going global so that means we will finally benefit from Ford's excellent european division (aside from the Fiesta). The new ECOnetic Focus model in Europe will be able to achieve 74.2 mpg with a 1.6-litre Duratorq TDCi engine.

The new Mustang will have the best fuel economy in its class, the new Fiesta will as well, the Taurus/Police Interceptor, etc. This is why I'm tending to favor the Focus. They have been making huge strides in fuel economy in general, and I believe this will translate to the new Focus and Focus EV, especially with the European engineering and global platform.


Also, I just realized something about the Focus. I assumed it would be coming out LATE 2011, but in fact they will launch in EARLY 2011. So if anyone is undecided between the Leaf and Focus EV, it doesn't seem like you will have to wait much at all, considering there are only initial Leaf units rolling out in December 2010, with production ramping up in 2011 when the Focus will also be coming on-line.

New range will start production simultaneously in Europe and North America in late 2010 and go on sale early in 2011. Asia, Africa and South America production will follow
Source:
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=31755

[KarenRei]

I don't see how the focus EV would do so well when the regular Focus isn't that great. The Volt and the Leaf strive for near-Prius aero.

[aptera1213]

I wonder what the 2012 Focus (coming early 2011) aero is...the new Focus clearly looks better and seems like the aero would be improved (the Fiesta gets better mileage than the similar Fit partly because the back end is lower...seems Ford is thinking aero some.)

I would love more info on the Ford Focus EV...especially before 4/20...that would be very helpful...well that and if Fiat comes out before then and tells us the 500ev is coming sooner than 2012. That would be great news.

Right now I plan to put a deposit on a LEAF come 4/20, but if Ford or Fiat or even Th!nk comes out before that and has some good hard info, good hard specs and such, well I could be tempted to wait a bit longer. Aptera has taught me how to be patient...or at least semi patient :)

Gavin

[plainar]

I would really hate to see the Leaf and the 500 driving around while holding out for an Aptera. I REALLY want to drive an EV! I'm a short commuter, but still a commuter. I held off on an Aptera reservation when I saw the schedule slipping. I'll be reserving a Leaf on 4/20 as well.

[SlowSRT4]

I don't see how the focus EV would do so well when the regular Focus isn't that great. The Volt and the Leaf strive for near-Prius aero.
I know the Prius and Volt have cd 0.25, but I have not heard what it is for the Leaf, nor the weight.

What do you mean the regular Focus isn't that great? What are you basing this on and how do you even know anything about it? Please divulge any information you have on it because I have none. :p

[Telchar]

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/ford-focus-econetic-1005850.html

The 2009 ECOnetic has cd=0.31

The 2012 Focus on Ford's site has a lot more warts than the 2009 ECOnetic (seems that way from the pic), so I wouldn't expect any improvement. I swear if the EV has a grille I'm going to be pissed.

[SlowSRT4]

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/ford-focus-econetic-1005850.html

The 2009 ECOnetic has cd=0.31

The 2012 Focus on Ford's site has a lot more warts than the 2009 ECOnetic (seems that way from the pic), so I wouldn't expect any improvement. I swear if the EV has a grille I'm going to be pissed.
Well the ECOnetic is definitely improved, that 2009 ECOnetic's fuel economy is 65 mpg combined, whereas the new ECOnetic gets 74.2 mpg combined.

There's no way to guess the CD or weight until they release specs. But Karen already saying the "Focus isn't that great" is a bit premature I think. Heck, we don't even know the weight or CD of the Leaf if I am not mistaken!?

[roflwaffle]

I don't see how the focus EV would do so well when the regular Focus isn't that great. The Volt and the Leaf strive for near-Prius aero.It really depends on what Ford changes. Lexus/Mercedes managed to get the Cd of their sedans down to the ~.24-.26 range, so it's not outside the realm of possibility. The cooling system/flow- through the engine bay adds ~20+% of the drag for most vehicles depending on packaging, which is probably why Nissan was hinting at a respectable Cd for the Leaf even though it's a box on wheels.

[KarenRei]

The 2010 Focus is 24 mpg city / 35 mpg highway. That's "good" for a non-hybrid, but not exceptional.

[BryanSR]

The FIRST new car I ever bought got over 40 MPG in 1972 BUT it didn't have a LOT of bells & whistles ... Not even A/C or Auto trans, and NO Airbags... It was a Dodge Colt which was made by Mitsubishi. You would think they could do a little better in the MPG...

[aptera1213]

The 2010 Focus is 24 mpg city / 35 mpg highway.

Yes, but the 2011 Fiesta is 30/40mpg and the 2012 Focus is rumored to be very very close to those numbers...I'm betting on 29/38 or 28/37mpg for the 2012 Focus.

Gavin

[Matthijs]

I am not even bothered by those cars or numbers. Where I live you can get tons of cars with that or much better economy. I want full electric or none.

[SlowSRT4]

The 2010 Focus is 24 mpg city / 35 mpg highway. That's "good" for a non-hybrid, but not exceptional.
FYI 2012 Global Focus is not based on 2010 US Focus. Also, US Ford's have been crap, but the Euro Ford's are in a different league. So these new Euro-based Fords are not comparable, don't prejudge.

[basjoos]

The 2010 Focus is 24 mpg city / 35 mpg highway. That's "good" for a non-hybrid, but not exceptional.

I'm still waiting for any non-hybrid car sold in the United States to get even in the neighborhood (much less spitting distance) of my aero modded car's mileage. Among the current hybrids, only the original 5-speed Insight betters it, but only at lower speeds. You get above 65-70mph where the Insight's lean burn drops out (but where my car is still running in lean burn), its mileage will even leave the Insight behind.

[SlowSRT4]

I'm still waiting for any non-hybrid car sold in the United States to get even in the neighborhood (much less spitting distance) of my aero modded car's mileage. Among the current hybrids, only the original 5-speed Insight betters it, but only at lower speeds. You get above 65-70mph where the Insight's lean burn drops out (but where my car is still running in lean burn), its mileage will even leave the Insight behind.
The Geo Metro XFI is quite impressive. Its original fuel economy was 53/58 mpg.

But even under the revised EPA ratings, it still attains a very impressive 43/51 mpg.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=1994&make=Geo&model=Metro%20XFI&hiddenField=Findacar

[basjoos]

Is there a way to say XX number of watts per mile, or something @ say 60 mph on a level surface? It would be good to compare these EV's the same way we compare ICE cars.

EV efficiency is measured in watt hours per mile in two forms, electical usage from the battery or electrical usage from the plug (which includes changing losses) under some (unspecified) driving regime. Its the EV equivalent of mpg. Here's a few of the former (usage from the battery) I dug up in a quick search on the internet. No idea of their accuracy.

Aptera 105 wh/mile
EV1 164 Wh/mile
Tesla 216 Wh/mile
Nissan Leaf 225 Wh/mile
Mitsubishi iMiEV 226 WH/mile
Chevy Volt 262 Wh/mile
Th!nk City 266 Wh/mile

[basjoos]

The Geo Metro XFI is quite impressive. Its original fuel economy was 53/58 mpg.

But even under the revised EPA ratings, it still attains a very impressive 43/51 mpg.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=1994&make=Geo&model=Metro%20XFI&hiddenField=Findacar

I'm averaging mpg in the mid 70's (US gallons) in mostly interstate driving. The best I could get with a Prius on the same route was a mpg in the low 60's. Not bad for $400 in aero mods and, more recently, a swap to a VX lean burn engine.

[SlowSRT4]

Well EPA ratings are more strict, in actuality you can do a lot better.

Look at the 09 Prius for example 48/45:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=2009&make=Toyota&model=Prius&hiddenField=Findacar

So the Geo Metro XFI actually does better highway than the Prius.

[PatQ562]

The following table from basjoos looks plausible to me, given the "unknowns". I would allow +30% for ordinary everyday driving as opposed to "mileage runs".

Aptera 105 wh/mile
EV1 164 Wh/mile
Tesla 216 Wh/mile
Nissan Leaf 225 Wh/mile
Mitsubishi iMiEV 226 WH/mile
Chevy Volt 262 Wh/mile
Th!nk City 266 Wh/mile

We can also add reported results of approx 200Wh/mile for the Triac, on a real-world road course at only about 50mph. This is yet another >2000 lb vehicle with only average Cd, so mediocre results are no surprise. We also have reports in the 170wH/mi range for a Myers NMG (single seat). We don't know about the 2-seat Duo yet.

So it can be noted that the Aptera and EV1 stand out due to excellent Cd, whereas the "mainstream styling" candidates all exceed 200Wh/mi. It seems fairly reasonable to lump the compact-car EV's together as they probably have similar drag. I would bet the Fiat-500 might be in the low 200's, and presumably a Ford Focus EV would be similar to the Leaf and iMiev. The Volt suffers from weighing 1000 lbs more, and the Th!nk might improve a little if their new power train is more efficient, but it's actually fairly heavy and not very aero.

As noted before, one could well choose a compact-based EV based on the lightest weight and appealing appearance.

[PatQ562]

I'm averaging mpg in the mid 70's (US gallons) in mostly interstate driving. The best I could get with a Prius on the same route was a mpg in the low 60's.

As noted previously, in steady highway running, hybrid equipment is merely extra weight that adds drag, since there's no regen benefit. So it is not surprising that a thoroughly streamlined, lightweight car with state-of-the-art ICE lean burn could excel on long trips. It's stop-and-go driving where the hybrid scheme adds value, sometimes resulting in "City mpg" that exceeds "Hwy mpg".

[roflwaffle]

The 2010 Focus is 24 mpg city / 35 mpg highway. That's "good" for a non-hybrid, but not exceptional.I'd be careful about assessing EV energy consumption based on the gasoline fuel consumption of the same platform. The Corolla for instance only has a Cd that's ~15% greater than the Cd of the Prius (And their CdAs are nearly identical IIRC), but the Prius gets ~65% better mileage due to much better powertrain efficiency. Large differences in the powertrain efficiency of current vehicles probably won't translate into the same differences in EV versions of those same platforms.

[Grendal]

The Geo Metro XFI is quite impressive. Its original fuel economy was 53/58 mpg.

But even under the revised EPA ratings, it still attains a very impressive 43/51 mpg.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/compx2008f.jsp?year=1994&make=Geo&model=Metro%20XFI&hiddenField=Findacar

My '94 Metro (station wagon/larger style) got over 50 mpg city/hwy combined for the first few years and after 250K miles was still getting 45 mpg when I sold it. :love0030: Great car. I'd buy another if they still made it. Part of the mileage drop was because they came out when the maximum speed on the highway was 65 mph. It changed to 75 mph around '96 or '97.

[SlowSRT4]

I'd be careful about assessing EV energy consumption based on the gasoline fuel consumption of the same platform. The Corolla for instance only has a Cd that's ~15% greater than the Cd of the Prius (And their CdAs are nearly identical IIRC), but the Prius gets ~65% better mileage due to much better powertrain efficiency. Large differences in the powertrain efficiency of current vehicles probably won't translate into the same differences in EV versions of those same platforms.
That, and the 2012 global Focus is completely different platform than the 2010 US Focus. :p

[butter]

Aptera 105 wh/mile
EV1 164 Wh/mile
Tesla 216 Wh/mile
Nissan Leaf 225 Wh/mile
Mitsubishi iMiEV 226 WH/mile
Chevy Volt 262 Wh/mile
Th!nk City 266 Wh/mile

Thank you, basjoos. So wow, the Tesla may in fact be far more efficient than everybody but Aptera and EV1! That's amazing! As a non-techie, non-car person, I don't really follow (or easily comprehend) the stats on these cars, so pardon me if I sound silly for being so suddenly impressed by the Tesla's relative efficiency. To date, I'd only thought of it as a gorgeous, exorbitant, expensive work of EV art (I mean "art" loosely, of course), but wow.

Every time I drive by the Tesla dealership in Santa Monica, I hope to be stuck in traffic at just the right spot so I can ogle the cute cars behind the window.

[NeilBlanchard]

I wonder about how it is then (based on the above wH/mile numbers), that the Th!nk City has a longer range than the Leaf, when they have virtually the same battery capacity?

[aptera1213]

Are they using the wrong weight to get the numbers? I know the city has two weights out on the web...a lot of people use the heavier number...when that is the weight fully loaded with people and max luggage.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

based on the gasoline fuel consumption of the same platform. The Corolla for instance only has a Cd that's ~15% greater than the Cd of the Prius (And their CdAs are nearly identical IIRC), but the Prius gets ~65% better mileage due to much better powertrain efficiency. Large differences in the powertrain efficiency of current vehicles probably won't translate into the same differences in EV versions of those same platforms.

Indeed, hence the reason I stated "for a non-hybrid".

[roflwaffle]

Doh! I gotcha.

[eklut]

Hi,
1. Nissan Leaf
2. Aptera 2e
3. Mitsubishi iMiEV
4. Chevrolet Volt
5. Ford Focus EV
6. Fiat 500 EV
7. Th!nk City

There are few cars that are on the top of all other car's, as I think so. But I have and love to drive my SX4. You can also visit the site for further maintaining of cars.

Thanks!!

[PatQ562]

As noted from the specs below, copied from the Coda web site, here's another example of how easy it is to "not get" decent energy usage. Taking their stated range of 90-120 miles, battery size of 33kWh, and maximum 6.6kW charge time of 6 hours, we are looking at an energy use of some 300-330wh/mile. Overall, the vehicle is pretty close to an EV1 burdened with a vehicle weight of 3660 lbs and mediocre aero drag, but benefitting from a newer battery system.

The Coda is something of a sleeper, allegedly available in 2010. Price rumors appear to be $45K, which is getting a lot of pushback for a China-built vehicle. The specs are reasonably complete however, indicating that they actually have hardware running.

Pat Q

CODA SPECIFICATIONS

Motor Power: 100 kW/134 hp
Motor Torque: 300 Nm/221 lb-ft
Transmission: Single Speed Gear Reduction
Drive Ratio: 6.54:1
Suspension: Four-wheel independent with front and rear MacPherson strut
Steering: Rack-and-pinion with electric power steering
Air Conditioning: 2.0 kW cabin cooling
DC:DC Converter 2.2 kW @13 V output
Charger: 6.6 kW / 220VAC Input or 1.3 kW / 110 VAC Input (back-up charging)

Brakes: Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS), Electronic Stability Control
Air Bags: Intelligent 6 air bag system (two advanced frontal, two seat-mounted side, and 2 side curtain airbags), Occupant Detection System
Seat Belts: 3 point
Safety Compliance: All applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards
Crash Safety: Anticipated 5-Star NCAP (New Car Assessment Program)

CODA will perform all maintenance and service through an outsourced network of world-class, brand name service partners.

Drive with assurance: the CODA is backed by a 3-year/36,000 mile limited vehicle warranty, with the battery covered for 8 years/100,000 miles.

Standard iPod® dock, MP3 and USB connectivity, and satellite -ready AM/FM/XM radio. Standard Bluetooth® hands-free phone capability with an embedded microphone speaker in the headliner and touchpad or voice dial capabilities. Standard touch screen navigation with turn-by-turn directions.

Vehicle range: 90-120 miles (US 06 & UDDS)
Top Speed: 80 mph (Electronically Limited)
Acceleration: 0-60 mph - under 11 seconds
Charge Time: 6 hours from 220V (30AMP)
Occupancy: 4 passengers
Vehicle Warranty: 3 years / 36,000 miles
Battery Warranty: 8 years / 100,000 miles

Battery Chemistry: Lithium-ion (LiFePO4)
Battery Configuration: 728 cells (104s7p)
Battery Energy: 33.8 kWh
Nominal Battery Voltage: 333V

Wheelbase: 102.3 inches
Track-Front 66.0 inches
Track-Rear 66.5 inches
Overall Length: 175.0 inches
Overall Width: 69.0 inches
Overall Height: 57.6 inches
Turning Radius: 17.5 ft (curb)/18.6 ft (wall)
Headroom (front/rear): 36.5/35.0 inches
Shoulder Room (front/rear): 22.0/17.0 inches
Legroom (front/rear): 44.0/31.0 inches
Trunk Space: 14.7 cubic ft
Curb Weight: 3660 lbs

ANALYSIS:
Battery of "728 cells" appears to comprise 7-wide, 104 tall, with individual cells rated at approx 14Ah, 3.2V.
Motor power and top speed similar to EV1, but reduction ratio is lower, indicating a less ambitious motor limit of about 10,000 rpm.
Note the "outsourced service partners" business model.
Visit the Coda web site for pictures. The car does not resemble a catfish but is bland as can be.

[SlowSRT4]

Hi,
1. Nissan Leaf
2. Aptera 2e
3. Mitsubishi iMiEV
4. Chevrolet Volt
5. Ford Focus EV
6. Fiat 500 EV
7. Th!nk City

There are few cars that are on the top of all other car's, as I think so. But I have and love to drive my SX4. You can also visit the site for further maintaining of cars.

Thanks!!
Your efficiency rankings are way off buddy, you must be smoking something. :character0025:

[NmGfan]

I can see no further through a brick wall than the next person, but you can pretty much figure on the following:

1. All mainstream EV's will have a highly efficient power train and usable regeneration.
2. If your usage is primarily city stop-and-go, at moderate speeds, look for the lightest weight. I believe the Fiat 500 is the winner here (other than Aptera).
3. If you need a freeway flyer, look for the best streamlining. It's hard to tell which mainstream cars will excel here - they should all be "OK" but there could be significant differences.
4. The Myers Duo uses a less efficient powertrain which more-or-less negates probable advantages in weight and drag. The "Mainstream" cars will of course have the full benefit of modern safety and durability engineering by large companies. Even Aptera is highly focused on safety, but it will be years before we know what the reliability looks like.
5. The Triac is a fairly heavy and not-very-streamlined China-built 3-wheeler but does have some valid technology. Not really freeway-oriented however.
6. As more specs get published, the range and battery size will tell you much (a short range despite a large battery points to high losses).
7. Other than a fairly full-size footprint the Aptera should still excel on both duty cycles, especially freeway commuting. If they ever ship, of course.

Pat Q

4. The Duo will be lighter, narrower, and shorter in overall length (2 feet) than an Aptera 2e. It will also be lighter and have about 30% less rolling resistance than all the "mainstream" 4-wheelers. The brushed DC motor and belt drive are over 90% efficient to the rear wheel, just like Aptera (93% efficient motor, 98% efficient gear reduction transaxle yields 91.1% efficiency to the front wheels). I expect the Duo to be in the 200Wh/mile range at freeway speeds (65+mph).

:happy0025:

[SEGsby]

It's a spammer, whos email matches up to other forum sites pushing skin care products, under different user names. They've been banned.


Your efficiency rankings are way off buddy, you must be smoking something. :character0025: