Leaf Reservations?

[A1phaGeek]

Nissan opened up their Leaf reservations today.

Did anyone else sign up for a reservation?

I still have not canceled my Aptera reservation yet, but personally I think the Leaf might end up being a better fit for my needs. I also have much higher hopes for a deliverable vehicle from Nissan in the near future.

[AndyH]

Please add a 'no' Aptera option for (at least) those of us that cannot reserve one?

[KarenRei]

I can't find my emails from them, so I can't put my reservation down :(

[ChicoBob]

I pressed yes, but I should have pressed #4 ... I'm still keeping my 2 Aptera reservations.

[LTLFTcomposite]

I can't find my emails from them, so I can't put my reservation down :(

Presumably you checked your spam folder. I have found the folks in the chat window very helpful, I bet they can get your reservation processed for you.

Was the "priority" period just last night?

[aptera1213]

Well I'm the lonely #3 poll person....but in truth I don't know if that is right...I haven't heard boo from Aptera about my deposit, so I have no idea if I've "officially" cancelled mY reservation.

Gavin

[1E 1721]

I have my reservation in. 63E3842D. I wish I knew how to decipher that number. Hoping to have gotten in early enough to score one of the free chargers.

[aptera1213]

Sadly I don't live in an area with free chargers...though maybe the local government will push for some kind of rebate (we get them for low flow toilets and all kinds of stuff, why not rebates to get people of gas?)

Gavin

[aptera1213]

I will say that I think Aptera misjudged it's competition a while back. It wasn't/isn't Tesla or Fisker...It was/is Nissan and Ford and others like that.

I guess Aptera kinda wished that the competition was Tesla and Fisker, then Aptera wins big on price...really big. Huge big win there.

But against Nissan and Ford and Th!nk and Fiat, well the price war is even.

(The war was about Price and Time. Aptera was ahead on both. Heck in 2008 it was way ahead on both counts. Coming soon and coming cheap was the winning hand...that and efficiency. Coming soon and coming cheap is now Nissan's winning hand.)

Gavin

[A1phaGeek]

I can't find my emails from them, so I can't put my reservation down :(
from Nissan's Facebook Leaf page:
"For those that have had problems with the process, we apologize and will work to resolve your issues. If you signed up before the Priority Reservation Period, but have not received your reservation email OR did receive the email, but are not able to complete your priority reservation on the site, please contact our helpline at 1-877-NO GAS EV (664-2738) or use the “live chat” functionality on the Nissan LEAF website. Don’t worry, Priority Reservation is open until mid-May!"

[A1phaGeek]

Please add a 'no' Aptera option for (at least) those of us that cannot reserve one?

I do not think I can edit the poll after it is posted.

My intent was that the just plain no option would fit for anyone without an aptera reservation. Aptera

[KarenRei]

Thanks, A1phaGeek. I got ahold of them and they sound like they're going to be helpful at resolving this. I'd hate to have to wait even longer to get an EV ;)

[Matthijs]

I do not think I can edit the poll after it is posted.

My intent was that the just plain no option would fit for anyone without an aptera reservation. Aptera

I added the option for people who did not reserve a Leaf or an Aptera.

[Aptera#1434]

I too checked yes, but should have checked box #4, keeping my Aptera reservation as well.

[Matthijs]

I too checked yes, but should have checked box #4, keeping my Aptera reservation as well.
I corrected the results for the 2 votes. I do not know how to switch the names though.

[eestorfan]

I can't find my emails from them, so I can't put my reservation down :(

Karen...same thing happened to me yesterday...It was almost 3 PM (end of time window) and I hadn't received the 'reserve' email. So I checked my spam folder and there it was! I even had added them to my address book and it STILL went to the spam folder. Someone had said that because they sent so many at once, that before it got to me, it had already been marked as spam. So it came at 2:55 MST (same as Pacific).

[AndyH]

I do not think I can edit the poll after it is posted.

My intent was that the just plain no option would fit for anyone without an aptera reservation. Aptera

Makes good sense. Thanks! Vote's in.

[Matthijs]

Please add a 'no' Aptera option for (at least) those of us that cannot reserve one?

Lol this is a good one. So I added the option just like you asked. You ignore it and just vote no? :sick0018:

[1E 1721]

Karen,
I know you will decipher the confirmation number once you have yours. Please post.

[AndyH]

Lol this is a good one. So I added the option just like you asked. You ignore it and just vote no? :sick0018:

Sorry for the misunderstanding Matthijs -- I wasn't interested in capturing 'I didn't reserve an Aptera', my request was for a 'I coudn't reserve an Aptera'. I did reserve a LEAF.

Cheers

[byplug]

..reserved a black LEAF with SV (basic) trim... hack in the quick charger plug after owning a while..?

[Matthijs]

Sorry for the misunderstanding Matthijs -- I wasn't interested in capturing 'I didn't reserve an Aptera', my request was for a 'I coudn't reserve an Aptera'. I did reserve a LEAF.

Cheers

Ah see. Well all good. I am jealous of you now. :happy0025:

[SlowSRT4]

I reserved silver, base trim model.

[aptera1213]

Byplug, black could get hot in the San Diego sun. :)

On a more positive note, it will be more stealthy when you try and get spy shots of Aptera mules driving around Vista. ;)

Gavin

[JimmyDreams]

Byplug, black could get hot in the San Diego sun. :)

On a more positive note, it will be more stealthy when you try and get spy shots of Aptera mules driving around Vista. ;)

Gavin

I read somewhere in the Leaf info that you can remotely control/time the environmental controls... so if you park your Leaf where the is/are public charging, you can just tell it to crank the a/c and cool off the car while it's plugged in (and before you open the door), thereby saving your batteries for the ride home. Nice touch. :)

[prberg]

I was curious if a darker color would reduce the efficiency in the warm summer months (when it's sunny and in the 90s and 100s). Maybe even shorten the battery life a little bit? Anybody know for sure?

[NeilBlanchard]

I think a dark color will make it hotter in the sun, than a very light color; so yes, the cooling will work a little harder when the car is a dark color.

I think the Leaf has an option to heat/cool the car ahead of time *before* you disconnect the charging plug, so it gets warm/cool on grid power...

[SlowSRT4]

I think the Leaf has an option to heat/cool the car ahead of time *before* you disconnect the charging plug, so it gets warm/cool on grid power...
But it does not also heat/cool (condition) the battery pack as the Volt does to prolong battery life.

[NeilBlanchard]

Maybe it doesn't need it? Nissan is talking about a 10 year warranty on the battery, and GM is talking about at least an 8 year warranty on the battery.

[evmavin]

Maybe it doesn't need it? Nissan is talking about a 10 year warranty on the battery, and GM is talking about at least an 8 year warranty on the battery.


I think it's five for Nissan.

[aptera1213]

We expect the battery to have a lifespan of 5-10 years. Like any battery, time and age will lead to a corresponding decrease in range.]

Nissan hasn't stated what the warranty will be yet. I hope they will soon. I imagine they will have to by June 30th, but I hope sooner.

Gavin

[NeilBlanchard]

We'll have to wait for an official warranty from Nissan and GM.

Mark Perry (of Nissan) was speaking of a 10 year warranty at the Boston tour event -- the battery would be at 70-80% at the end of 10 years, even with frequent fast charging. We'll see if this is close to what the official warranty says...

[Mesuge]

I read somewhere in the Leaf info that you can remotely control/time the environmental controls... so if you park your Leaf where the is/are public charging, you can just tell it to crank the a/c and cool off the car while it's plugged in (and before you open the door), thereby saving your batteries for the ride home. Nice touch. :)

Yes, that's a functionality which many EVs hope to provide, however, this point leads us to very interesting speculation. It's quite possible, the Nissan people ran the statistics on A/C use on the american market. Lets say there is above 60% penetration/saturation, so this give them some confidence, the car is not going to become a giant heat bulb in the summer, but rather stay cooler than the ambient temp or at least cool off some of the accumulated radiant energy from the surroundings. Hence another point in favor of air-cooling only on their project board. Well, lets hope it will work in the end.

[AndyH]

But it does not also heat/cool (condition) the battery pack as the Volt does to prolong battery life.

Well...not quite.

Articles scattered around the 'not always accurate' internet use words like 'passive cooling' when talking about the LEAF pack. And we tend to hear things like 'inactive' or 'inert' or 'not responding' when we hear 'passive', right?

Here's the best overview I've yet found on EV/PHEV pack thermal management: Battery Thermal Management in EVs and HEVs:
Issues and Solutions (http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/aabc_lv.pdf) from the US National Renewable Energy Lab.

One point from page 3 is that in EV/PHEV battery-speak, 'passive' heating and cooling includes moving outside air thru the pack with fans, and includes moving heated/cooled cabin air thru the pack. It can also include moving water thru the pack.

One other data point that really nails one of the many benefits of lithium in an EV - see page 5. At a high discharge rate, we need to get rid of 14 watts of heat from a sealed lead acid battery, almost 23W from NiMH (!), but only 3.5W from lithium ion.

What about the difference between the more common round cells and the flat 'pouch' cells? The battery manufacturer - AESC (51% Nissan 49% NEC) - shows that on their website (http://www.eco-aesc.com/en/laminatecell.html). The flat cells generate less than 1/2 the heat of a cylindrical cell. The beauty here - you don't have to get rid of something that isn't there. :)

This same type of 'passive' thermal management works very well for the Gen 1 Honda Insight (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/Thermal_Eval_Insight.pdf) - in spite of using cylindrical NiMH cells (a heat-making double whammy compared with flat lithium cells).

If the folks at NISSAN are pumping cabin air thru the pack, and considering that the battery has a wider temperature range than the humans in the cabin, I think the pack is going to have a happy life.

Andy

[SlowSRT4]

Andy, if you look at my post you would see I was replying about being plugged in. It doesn't matter how little heat li-ion generates if the car is not even running. The ambient temperature could be extremely hot (110) or extremely cold (0), which will obviously affect the battery life, even when not running.

What I was saying is that if the Volt is plugged in, it will regulate the battery's temperature (actively) by either warming or cooling it, to keep it within a safe range.

[aptera1213]

We'll have to wait for an official warranty from Nissan and GM.

Mark Perry (of Nissan) was speaking of a 10 year warranty at the Boston tour event -- the battery would be at 70-80% at the end of 10 years, even with frequent fast charging. We'll see if this is close to what the official warranty says...


If that is the case, I would buy it. If the warranty is less than 7 years, I will lease.

Gavin

[AndyH]

Andy, if you look at my post you would see I was replying about being plugged in. It doesn't matter how little heat li-ion generates if the car is not even running. The ambient temperature could be extremely hot (110) or extremely cold (0), which will obviously affect the battery life, even when not running.

What I was saying is that if the Volt is plugged in, it will regulate the battery's temperature (actively) by either warming or cooling it, to keep it within a safe range.

I appreciate that. I don't claim to know all the details, but I do work with LiFePo4 cells (cylindrical) and have three years of bench testing, on-road use, and study with these cells. While I understand that you say GM has chosen to heat/cool the pack even when the car is off, I just don't understand why.

A123-Systems says their cylindrical cells have a storage temperature range of minus 50°C to plus 60°C (-58°F to 140°F) and an operating range from minus 30°C to the same 60°C.

I understand that the cells perform better when warm. I do expect that pack temperature might be a significant factor in the emissions profile, so they may have to do more thermal management to keep the emissions profile within EPA limits. Dunno.

If you can point me to a reference that shows what GM's doing or why I've love to read it. All I've seen is this doc from A123-Systems (http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/A123_Systems_Prismatic_Report.pdf).

Andy

[KarenRei]

Andy, the Volt isn't using A123 or phosphates. They're using LG Chem manganates. That said, the manganates have pretty similar operating profiles, and yes, I fully agree that GM has way over-engineered their pack.

[KarenRei]

We'll have to wait for an official warranty from Nissan and GM.

Mark Perry (of Nissan) was speaking of a 10 year warranty at the Boston tour event -- the battery would be at 70-80% at the end of 10 years, even with frequent fast charging. We'll see if this is close to what the official warranty says...

One thing that's interesting about phosphate and manganate li-ion degradation profiles, IMHO, is that the rate of degradation falls over time. I've seen half a dozen of them, and they all fit this general curve:

http://energyanalysis.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/a123-plug-in-cycle-life.jpg

There is, of course, the caveat that not only is your capacity dropping, but your internal resistance is rising, too.

Not all chemistries follow this sort of profile -- for example, a number of techs involving lithium metal anodes have a profile that plateaus and then falls off a cliff (probably because of damage to the separator). But with the stable olivines and spinels with carbon anodes, the rate of capacity loss tends to decline over time.

[evnow]

One thing that's interesting about phosphate and manganate li-ion degradation profiles, IMHO, is that the rate of degradation falls over time. I've seen half a dozen of them, and they all fit this general curve:

Let us say a driver uses 5 to 10 kwh everyday and recharges at night. How do they behave on shorter charge/discharge cycles ?

[1E 1721]

I read somewhere in the Leaf info that you can remotely control/time the environmental controls... so if you park your Leaf where the is/are public charging, you can just tell it to crank the a/c and cool off the car while it's plugged in (and before you open the door), thereby saving your batteries for the ride home. Nice touch. :)
Nissan says on the Leaf web site that there will be a mobile phone App to control A/C, charging, and system monitoring.

[LTLFTcomposite]

Let us say a driver uses 5 to 10 kwh everyday and recharges at night. How do they behave on shorter charge/discharge cycles ?

If they're like the drivers around here, probably quite rudely.

[KarenRei]

Let us say a driver uses 5 to 10 kwh everyday and recharges at night. How do they behave on shorter charge/discharge cycles ?

They love shallow discharging cycles. Deep discharges cause more degradation than shallow ones (although not nearly to the extent of cobalt cells). No type of li-ion cells have memory effects.

Optimally, if you're really concerned about longevity, you'd be able to limit the upper end of your vehicle's charging range. The optimum long-term energy storage level for li-ions is at around 60% SOC, so if you use 30% of your range in a typical day, you'd want to charge it to 60% when you get home, then to 75% right before you leave in the morning, run it down to 45% during the day, then back up to 60% when you get home. Obviously, most people wouldn't do that, so don't expect car makers to offer such a feature. ;) Likewise, most li-ion cells like to be stored at about 40F when not in use, but don't expect to see that done in practice. In practice, what you'll see is the extremes being eliminated -- extremes of heat, of cold, of upper charging SOC, and of lower charging SOC.

Aptera is going without any restrictions on SOC, but since they're going with A123, I see no problems with that strategy. While most people will hit the upper end of their charging SOC every evening, the lower end is only rarely hit. If you run your 100% DOD battery down to 0V, that means that you stranded your car on the side of the road. ;)

[AndyH]

Let us say a driver uses 5 to 10 kwh everyday and recharges at night. How do they behave on shorter charge/discharge cycles ?

I don't know of a standardized test that looks at that, so can only reply with a broad-brush 'guestimate'.

Shortest life seems to come from constant high-charge and discharge current cycles that use 100% capacity. Anything that brings temperatures in line, reduces charge and/or discharge current, uses more conservative voltages for charge and discharge (less than 100% - even down to the ~40% hybrid window) gives more cycles.

A couple of examples of standardized tests conducted by Sandia Labs (http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/images/SANDIA2008-5583_PSI.pdf)are the hybrid power pulse and utility pulse tests. A cell that will provide ~1500 cycles to 80% capacity with 100% discharges can give more than 8000 cycles if supplying power in one of these pulse modes and still be above 80% capacity.

These cycles are too quick and too shallow to directly compare to your question, but at least show that you should be able to get more shallower cycles. ;)

My guess is that it's going to be hard to predict the exact effect of short cycles only because the cells will also lose some capacity over time even if sitting half-charged.

NISSAN has about 17 years of experience with Lithium cells in EVs - more than anyone that I know of. I figure they're in the best position to understand how to build and manage a pack to give a specified life or performance level.

Andy

[edit] Karen's a faster typist. ;)

[evnow]

Optimally, if you're really concerned about longevity, you'd be able to limit the upper end of your vehicle's charging range.

Thanks for the answer.

My preference to address the concern is to lease !

[KarenRei]

Woohoo! I got my order in! Had to be on hold for about an hour, but hey!

Browsing through the info, I didn't know that the Leaf comes standard with LED headlights. Unnecessary, but neat. :)

I wonder if anyone will come up with a kit for covering those rear wheels... bet you could snag at least 5 more miles that way.

[AndyH]

Woohoo! I got my order in! Had to be on hold for about an hour, but hey!

Congrats!

I wonder if anyone will come up with a kit for covering those rear wheels... bet you could snag at least 5 more miles that way.

Ha! I've been wondering the same thing! Those flat areas around the wheel well are screaming at me! :)

And maybe some airsplitters ahead of the wheels? What else can we borrow from the Gen 1 Insight?

[aptera1213]

Congrats Karen...and I see you are already giving good information to the Nissan forum members.

They might not all be as learned at the Aptera forum members :)

Gavin

ps...what color did you pick?

[SlowSRT4]

Browsing through the info, I didn't know that the Leaf comes standard with LED headlights. Unnecessary, but neat. :)
I wasn't sure about that either, I kind of assumed based on the blue reflections I saw in the headlights, but didn't know for sure.

Anybody know if that's the same for the Volt? I tried to google for it but I couldn't find any info about the headlights. They sort of look like HID projectors to me.

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/running_on_empty_is_the_2011_chevrolet_volt_hype_o r_hope_car_news/running_on_empty_is_the_2011_chevrolet_volt_hype_o r_hope/chevol_11_22/1704205-1-eng-US/chevol_11_22_cd_gallery.jpg

[KarenRei]

ps...what color did you pick?

(sheepish grin)... white ...

[Mesuge]

Browsing through the info, I didn't know that the Leaf comes standard with LED headlights. Unnecessary, but neat. :)

I wonder if anyone will come up with a kit for covering those rear wheels... bet you could snag at least 5 more miles that way.

?Excuse my contrarian style hah, but do you realize ICE cars or generaly vehicles full of computers like hybrids/Prius eat ~500W just on standby-idle (incl. fan, lights etc.) So, efficiency counts on every single item..

Btw. the ecomodding freaks build their wheel covers from Ikea alu-pizza plates, there is going to be lot of afterm. toys available for it..

[KarenRei]

LEDs aren't particularly more efficient than HID, if at all, in terms of light perception by the human eye. But they're a lot more expensive.

[aptera1213]

But LEDs, at least on my scooters, use way less battery power....I changed out almost all my bulbs for LEDs to put less drain on my batteries.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

But LEDs, at least on my scooters, use way less battery power....I changed out almost all my bulbs for LEDs to put less drain on my batteries.

Gavin

I assume your scooter wasn't using HID previously.

Luminous efficacy of commercial LED lighting solutions is lower than that of HID (both metal-halide and both high and low pressure sodium). The problem is the "green gap"; human eyes are most sensitive to green, while LEDs are best at producing red and blue (the edges of our visual perception). "White" LEDs are just blue LEDs with a phosphor coating, so you have conversion losses.

The day an affordable true-green LED hits the market is the day all other lighting solutions' days are numbered.

An additional problem with LED headlights is, ironically, heat. Even though LEDs don't put out much heat, they're also very sensitive to heat, and heat reduces their light output (and thus lowers their efficiency). So an efficient, full-sized car headlight assembly needs a good cooling system. Smaller LED assemblies, by virtue of not putting out as much heat, don't have this problem as much.

[SlowSRT4]

But LEDs, at least on my scooters, use way less battery power....I changed out almost all my bulbs for LEDs to put less drain on my batteries.

Gavin
Your scooters had HID's? :scared0011:


I have some EarthLED.com LED light bulbs in my house. There are numerous differences involved with LED's. As Karen mentioned the LED's are very sensitive to heat. My bulbs are mostly the standard 7 watt (60 watt equivalents), but they have fairly substantial heatsinks on them. Overall, I like them a lot better than incandescent, they use hardly any power and will last forever.

Of course with cars you have halogen, HID, and LED. Versus incandescent, CFL, and LED for home light bulbs.

[plainar]

I chose silver, but would take any color besides black. I reserved a Leaf for many reasons, but my main reasons are:
*I want to drive a pure EV and I can't wait much longer
*The price is reasonable
*It has a backseat for when I need it

I think I'll always follow Aptera out of habit and curiosity.

[earther]

NISSAN has about 17 years of experience with Lithium cells in EVs ...

Whoa, I didn't realize that Nissan had offered other EV models in the past; I had just naively assumed that the Leaf was their first. Were they only sold in Japan, or perhaps their other EVs were purely commercial/fleet ventures?

[aptera1213]

The Nissan Altra was an electric car produced by Nissan Motors between 1998 and 2002. The Nissan Altra was introduced at the Los Angeles International Auto Show on 29 December 1997.[1] Nissan described the Altra as a combination of a sedan, SUV, and minivan.[2] It was mainly used as a fleet vehicle for companies such as electric utilities.[2][3] Only about 200 vehicles were ever produced.[3] It used the bodystyle of the Nissan R'nessa.

Technologically, the Altra was significant as being the first production electric vehicle to use a lithium-ion battery (li-ion) battery. Nissan called this a third-generation battery (after lead acid and nickel metal hydride) and chose li-ion primarily for its power density.[2] It was managed by a passive system, ensuring the batteries never reach charge levels outside their recommended zones.

So 200 cars...but the first to use li ion batteries...and they have worked on the tech for many years.

Gavin

[AndyH]

Whoa, I didn't realize that Nissan had offered other EV models in the past; I had just naively assumed that the Leaf was their first. Were they only sold in Japan, or perhaps their other EVs were purely commercial/fleet ventures?

It shocked me too! I knew of most of the cars from the late 90s ZEV/'who killed the electric car'/EV1 timeframe - but somehow only stumbled on the Altra last week in fits of caffeine-supported late-nite Googling. :)

Supposedly, there were a couple hundred made. This new info is forcing me to completely rethink the overall EV hierarchy! ;)

Wikipedia - Nissan R'nessa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_R'nessa)

Altra EV Test Drive (http://www.altfuels.org/events/testdriv/altra.html)

Nissan Altra - A Look Back at the World's First LiIon-Powered EV (http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1036152_nissan-altra-a-look-back-at-the-worlds-first-li-ion-powered-ev)

I wonder how much farther EV development might be today if the California ZEV mandate had been allowed to run it's course unmodified?

Andy

[PatQ562]

Technologically, the Altra was significant as being the first production electric vehicle to use a lithium-ion battery (li-ion) battery.

I remember this well when the last generation of EV's were briefly semi-available. The Nissan EV was just another heavy boxy car compared to the EV1, but oh how I wish GM had lost the big bucks pioneering lithium instead of NiMH. History coulda been different.

Pat Q

[ScottA]

After posting in error that the leaf was still asking for buyers to leas the battery and fiding out that hear in CA the leaf could cost around 20K after rebates and tax credits and finally after determining that I could get rid of (Sell or trade in) my old Subaru if I get the LEAF I put in my reservation. I even took the day off of work so that I would not miss the e-mail from Nissan.

I must say I feel a little dirty right now. I mean I stated why I am looking at the LEAF (Primarily money) but I am still in love with the Aptera. It will be 2 to 3 times more efficient then the leaf. It will have a longer range then the leaf. It will be sportier then the leaf. The Aptera wil,l or at least we think it will be made in America. The Aptera will not require any modifications to my homes electrical system and even with all the recent changes the aptera is still so much cooler then the leaf.

But with not knowing when the Aptera will be built what the final price tag will be after government incentives (with will be less since the Aptera is not actually a car 3 wheel motorcycle) and I realize that Nissan is selling the leaf for a loss to capture market share and squeeze out litile guys like Aptera,
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR
OK I will step back from the edge of the cliff.
Maybe by the time the Aptera comes out I will be able to buy both.
Well I can dream

[KarenRei]

1) Aptera won't be 2-3 times the efficiency.

2) The guilt will pass. It did for me.

[evnow]

I even took the day off of work so that I would not miss the e-mail from Nissan.

LOL. Thats some commitment. I just forwarded my hotmail to office mail and monitored it more closely.

The Aptera wil,l or at least we think it will be made in America.

So is Nissan. They are building a billion dollar car & battery plant in TN. BTW, Nissan's current Smyrna factory is the largest auto factory in the US.

I realize that Nissan is selling the leaf for a loss to capture market share

Apparently not. By committing to large volumes, they are spreading their initial research investment over a large # of vehicles. They also manufacture batteries inhouse.That lets them price Leaf low and still make a profit.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article7086781.ece

“We not going to lose money on this. I don’t have a boss who would endure that,” he said, referring to Carlos Ghosn, whose nickname is “the cost killer”.

Maybe by the time the Aptera comes out I will be able to buy both.
Well I can dream

A bird in hand ...

[spear-fish]

My reservation # is A0FE41D5, looks difficult to make any sense of the numbering system. I reserved on 4/20/10 at around 15:30.

[eestorfan]

After posting in error that the leaf was still asking for buyers to leas the battery and fiding out that hear in CA the leaf could cost around 20K after rebates and tax credits and finally after determining that I could get rid of (Sell or trade in) my old Subaru if I get the LEAF I put in my reservation. I even took the day off of work so that I would not miss the e-mail from Nissan.

I must say I feel a little dirty right now. I mean I stated why I am looking at the LEAF (Primarily money) but I am still in love with the Aptera. It will be 2 to 3 times more efficient then the leaf. It will have a longer range then the leaf. It will be sportier then the leaf. The Aptera wil,l or at least we think it will be made in America. The Aptera will not require any modifications to my homes electrical system and even with all the recent changes the aptera is still so much cooler then the leaf.

But with not knowing when the Aptera will be built what the final price tag will be after government incentives (with will be less since the Aptera is not actually a car 3 wheel motorcycle) and I realize that Nissan is selling the leaf for a loss to capture market share and squeeze out litile guys like Aptera,
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRR
OK I will step back from the edge of the cliff.
Maybe by the time the Aptera comes out I will be able to buy both.
Well I can dream

There seems to be one thing some people on here keep forgetting: Aptera was going to petition to have it declared an 'auto' so people could get the $7500 fed tax credit IF they qualify for all of it, which I wouldn't. I would much rather have a 2e, BUT since I'm not in CA, it would probably be at least 2-3 years. So I'm going to lease a LEAF, which I should be able to get this Dec., and then hopefully buy an Aptera after the lease expires.

[1E 1721]

I asked about the number through thier web chat. I was told that the alpha numeric sequence has no meaning. And does not indicate your place in line. Somehow I doubt that. My # is 63E3842D. I reserved on the 20th at 2:35 PST. Northern California reservation.

[ScottA]

Thanks for all the fact checking and feedback.
In regard to the LEAF e-mail. I work for the DOE Livermore Labs and they block all outside e-mail sights. I suppose I could have found a way to forward but I had lots of other things I wanted to take care of in addition to getting the LEAF E-Mail. Plus when I am at work I get involved in things away from my computer.
Buy now

[ScottA]

Will the aptara qualify for the $5000 CA state rebate?

[SlowSRT4]

Will the aptara qualify for the $5000 CA state rebate?
By the looks of it, that rebate will be long gone by Tesla/Volt/Leaf/Focus/etc. buyers before any Apteras could be bought.

[evmavin]

By the looks of it, that rebate will be long gone by Tesla/Volt/Leaf/Focus/etc. buyers before any Apteras could be bought.


Yes- All the funds wil be gone as they were before by Tesla folks, oh the irony.

[aptera1213]

Not sure how you petition to be an auto...but I guess they could try. Being an Automobile will, in the short run, cost Aptera several million dollars. But in the long run it could be a smart move.

As of right now Aptera gets a 2,500 fed rebate. 4 wheel EVs get 7500.

Nissan, if you lease, is giving that 7500 off the lease price right away...which is nice.


As for the California funds...yes, it's funny to think of 4 million dollars being gone in mere months...if is less than funny knowing most of those funds will be gone because millionaires used them up...but that is how it generally goes. The rich get richer...It is funny...I use to see it all the time at the hospital (recent regulations have stop this thought)...a doctor comes in with his wife or child for a study or visit and we would go, "oh, comp that" or "don't charge them"...and I was..."what? wait, they actually have insurance. They actually have money. Why are we comping them?" "Professional courtesy"..."But they have insurance and won't have to pay...we should be giving professional courtesy to the guy with no insurance..." "what? that's crazy. why would we give free exams to a guy with no insurance?" me: "Why the hell are we giving free exams to rich freaking doctors?" and on and on it went...strange how i couldn't understand them and they couldn't understand me :)



Gavin

[evnow]

Yes- All the funds wil be gone as they were before by Tesla folks, oh the irony.

They should definitely limit the rebate to cars with an MSRP of less than $50K. Giving $7.5K+$5K rebate to Tesla Roadster makes no sense.

[plainar]

If only Aptera had been on time with production, PBW could have given the Aptera a higher MSRP with less complaints. The MSRP dealer shell game at least gets simpler with the Aptera.

[aptera1213]

If only Aptera had been on time with production, PBW could have given the Aptera a higher MSRP with less complaints.

Well that is true for me...a year ago they could have asked for 35k and I would have said, "ouch, but ok."
Now I expect the Aptera has to be under 30k...actually making it under 25k (24,999 :) ) is almost a necessity for it to sell with the LEAF advertising a 25k price point.

Gavin

[evmavin]

True- besides competing on a dollars to dollars scale there is less perceived value to many buyers as the Aptera is not a "factory" vehicle like the big makers, this will demand a lower price point outside of the EV crowd. If Nissan were to produce this vehicle in numbers intended for the Leaf it would need to be priced in the low 20's before rebates and if they had a low cost process to build the shells it certainly could be viable. Once EVs are more established I could see a big market for small, fun EVs that are used primarily for use under 70 miles as second cars. The Aptera is a bit wide a and long for this strategy but they had an opportunity to catch that space and the commuting market before the gap closed and EVs become more segmented. As a wild card, I still believe the vehicle could be viral and trendy in many demographic groups but the clock is really running out and urgency and customer focus are Aptera's worst attributes.