The great Leaf batt. pack thread [Archive] - ApteraForum.com

aptera1213

04-21-2010, 10:13 AM

But I do know, interestingly and perhaps relevantly, that the electric car that has probably driven more miles than any other model, the Toyota RAV4 EV, does not have batteries with an active system. A fan circulates air. The Honda EV+ used the same Panasonic EV-95 NiMH battery modules with an active system, and those packs didn't last as long.

So passive can, and has, work well in the real world.

As with all things, time will tell...but I won't discount out of hand that Nissan knows what they are doing and that a passive system can work very well with their battery placement. Think of it as a computer...a fan and a heatsink will get you through the day. The Nissan has a fan, and with the batteries down on the floor, they have a mighty big heat sink in the car frame.

Gavin

aptera1213

04-21-2010, 10:19 AM

Thinking the lease option is the more safe bet especially with the questions regarding the batt life. I don't even know if I will be able to trully afford one, but hey...I'll figure it out. I want an EV NOW! Not a year from now...Aptera. :(

Actually it will be about a year for the Nissan...of course it will be 2 years for the Aptera.

And both those times depend on ramp up speed. Nissan, being bigger, could get more tires on the road faster...but they will also have more people waiting in line.

I would love Nissan to pump out 50k cars in the first year for the US market alone...I just don't know if they can do it. Maybe. But it would be sweet if they did.

Gavin

And I plan to lease because I would like a 500ev in a couple of years...but if when I get to the Nissan store and they tell me the battery has a warranty of say 7 years and 75 thousand miles (10 years and 100k would be better) well I might just buy it and give it to the wife or daughter in a couple of years. We are all 2 car families, so having a second car EV makes great sense for any one of us, and any one of us would only put a few thousand miles a year on it...so the batteries would last a long long time. Seeing the pack and reading the plug in america article has actually made me much more comfortable with the Nissan pack. That and knowing Nissan isn't in the business to fail or lose money on a poor pack.

palmer_md

04-21-2010, 10:23 AM

Jack Rickard of evtv.me has done some testing with lithium batteries and has noted that the low resistance of the cells does not allow them to generate much heat. He finds that keeping them in the airflow under the car should be enough to keep them much cooler than the specs allow. If they are not under the car in the airflow, just minor cooling fans were required. Sounds like the Nissan engineers came to the same conclusion with their battery chemistry.

chijayhawker

04-21-2010, 10:24 AM

Actually it will be about a year for the Nissan...of course it will be 2 years for the Aptera.

Well, at least Nissan is willing to take my money now (afterall it seems lately like I'm more than happy to part with it! :( ) Aptera wouldn't even let me make a reservation since I don't live in CA. And Nissan is supposed to start delivery by the end of the year. Not that I'll be one of those lucky ones to get mine towards the end of the year, but at least I'm in line.

And per the production, yeah, I could see Nissan being able to pump out my car before Aptera could.

Mesuge

04-21-2010, 10:36 AM

but if when I get to the Nissan store and they tell me the battery has a warranty of say 7 years and 75 thousand miles (10 years and 100k would be better)

No it seems to be like 3-5yrs, if you lease it's not a problem, however they still haven't explained their policy towards pack replacements and/or extra prepaid warranty schemes, kind of weird given the fast advancing pre-ordering process. I guess the Nissan strategy is just to flood the markets, and if your car starts to spin into the derating vortex of stated range (upto 40-75%, i.e. real range x 0.4-0.75) they will replace it. And after few years time they will just swap it for better density pack, and again happy 3-5yrs of motoring. Well, I don't like such strategy, but that's my problem only, I'd rather like to see how they are going to deal with people with potential problems shortly after the warranty runs out, a discount?

The little problem with PIA's article is they are comparing appples-2-oranges. The NiMH chemistry/robustness used in RAV4EV is different to way how these tiny prismatic lithiums in series react to temp swings. Also, you can often times "recondition" heat affected NiMHs like those with some degree of success. Another aspect to consider is that in response the Voltec team announced that they will "simplify" their gen2-3 products in the similar manner. Sounds like wallmart - rat race mentality again.

palmer md> large part of the U.S. sub/urban setting is concrete/asphalt jungle with the effect. of increased avg. temp, I doubt the pack will enjoy the heat radiated from the street surface upwards (to battery pod) when stationary very much. Not every parking lot or drive way has a shade for everybody.

aptera1213

04-21-2010, 10:55 AM

Heatsink of frame will help. Fan will help. Placement will help.

The thing is the battery is running hot when your car is moving fast. At the same time, you get the most air cooling when you are moving fast. So that is good.

Now stopped in traffic, or slow moving traffic, you will have much less air cooling from the wind, and you will have more heat from the road...but you also have very little heat from the battery at that time (basically none while stopped, very little in slow motion traffic).

So passive has the ability, with low and spread out battery placement like Nissan and Th!nk are doing, to work very well.

But I am still leaning toward leasing...but will see what the final numbers are in terms of warranty and such.

Nissan isn't dumb. They won't have a crappy battery or battery plan...if they do everybody will lease and Nissan is stuck in 3 years with a slew of crappy batteries? I think not....but time will tell.

Gavin

palmer_md

04-21-2010, 10:55 AM

palmer md> large part of the U.S. sub/urban setting is concrete/asphalt jungle with the effect. of increased avg. temp, I doubt the pack will enjoy the heat radiated from the street surface upwards (to battery pod) when stationary very much. Not every parking lot or drive way has a shade for everybody.

Well, if the car is stationary then there is very little load on the batteries, so they wont be generating much heat. They are under the car, so they are by definition, in the shade. Once you start moving they have airflow to cool.

aptera1213

04-21-2010, 10:57 AM

Yep.

Gavin

Mesuge

04-21-2010, 11:14 AM

Have you ever touched "shaded" highway surface in the summer? It radiates heat as an owen.. I'm not saying this will be "catastrophe" or a problem for most, but for some locations quite likely.

palmer_md

04-21-2010, 11:18 AM

Have you ever touched "shaded" highway surface in the summer? It radiates heat as an owen.. I'm not saying this will be "catastrophe" or a problem for most, but for some locations quite likely.

Yes, but the batteries are not going to touch this surface. They are going to be 6" above the surface. While the car is sitting above this surface, it is shading it, so it should be cooling down, and because the car is not moving it is not generating any additional heat on its own. The pack will not pick up any significant heat from the road surface that cannot be removed with fans or by vehicle motion.

Mesuge

04-21-2010, 11:24 AM

The are no fans in the pack to circulate the air out of the car, there is only a loop of fans, which makes sure the heat gets distributed evenly inside the sealed batt. pod, which in itself is rather interesting, because this pod is not very thick comparatively to airspace given to previous similar aircooled pack type, e.g. RAV4EV. The chieftains of Nissan said it plainly, they prefer cabin space and passanger "ergonomy" over batt. pack termo issues. It's a calculated risk on their part, ok, but they should share more details on the warranty, in case they are going to absorb the price of "premature" pack degradation, it's still sort of win situation for the user..

aptera1213

04-21-2010, 11:45 AM

Do we know there is no air flow over the pack? Aptera had the "nostrils" to channel air through the car.

I do know Nissan has a smooth underbelly for aero (similar to the Aptera), but it could easily have external air flow over the pack area...or not...I haven't seen the whole underbelly.

I still think having a huge heatsink, ie the whole freaking frame, will be a bonus (that is one area Aptera is missing out on by having a composite frame). As for the rest...who knows. Real world miles will be fun to see. I'm not so worried by road heat...sure it gets hot here, but, again, when stopped the pack makes no heat of it's own..when moving and the battery is actually making heat, well the road heat isn't an issue as the car is moving and wind from the car itself is keeping heat from batteries. Kinda a balance of heat factors...Stopped, heat from road, no heat from batteries. Moving, heat from batteries, no heat from road. Hopefully it is a good balance.

Gavin

PatQ562

04-22-2010, 02:54 AM

The NiMH batteries in the EV1 required the air conditioning to run for cooling during charge and sometimes, in use. The RAV4 apparently reduced losses, and used two 12-inch cooling fans instead. Modern lithium batteries run a lot cooler.

Just personally, I'm used to "passive" cooling meaning no fans, just depending on breezes or the vehicle motion. "Active" cooling means fans; it subdivides into air-cooled (blow ambient air thru the pack) or liquid cooled (circulate cooling fluid to a radiator that is then fan cooled). The latter solution is expensive and only justified if the batteries are tucked away where air can't get to them. I hope there's no need to run the AC on a modern pack, as you are chasing your tail by adding to the pack's load to remove the heat from loading the pack.

Pat Q

NeilBlanchard

04-22-2010, 06:46 AM

The Nissan Leaf has no *active* cooling in the battery pack. I got this straight from Mark Perry at the Boston tour event.

Mesuge

04-25-2010, 07:39 AM

Hm, seems like confirmation of what I've been saying for some time. Based on this marketing-sales road show belle presentation (no guarantee), they will offer you a credit for the remaining usefulness of the batt. when exchanging the pack for a new one, then they will either recycle or move it to some sort of storage application. This very procedure has been also put on their poster as 5yrs life span, so this has got corroboration. The placement of batt. temp gauge on the dash is also quite telling. So, for some really hard core climates (or reckless owners leaving it on the sun in asphalt/concrete jungle) the aircooled batt. pack only system WILL matter. For many/most not an issue, for some definately yes. Time ~4:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndNeupaY6Sc&feature=related

It's too soon to call it that way as of now, but we can't completely discount the possibility, this is all calculated strategy, to replace the -minus maintanance revenue of OEM EVs (v. ICE) with shorter, say ~5yrs lifespan batt. pack and more or less "mandatory" overhaul as your pack goes south of 70% original range, and likely cut on top speed/accel. envelope as well. I've never heard from them to include the cost of batt. pack over mile into their price structure calculations they use during presentations, all is based on just how cheap the charging per mi is, not the overall cost of ownership. Obviously, this will be less and less issue as the automotive grade batts. hit <<$500/kWh, but complete whitewashing for the meantime is not good strategy either.

evmavin

04-25-2010, 12:49 PM

From what I understand the fan only circulates the air in the sealed area to keep the temp the same in the entire enclosure, not to circulate hot air out. I don't envy those in hot climates that will charge right between drives. I can't wait to see the pack warranty and the exact terms of the coverage. I hope there is extra space in the pack cavity for a redesigned or larger pack.

Mesuge

04-26-2010, 06:40 AM

evmavin

04-26-2010, 07:19 PM

Correct, one can almost see it beforehand (like prophet's vision, ha), various ghetto additional cooling setups necessary, picture a guy running extension cords closer to his Leaf, running smaller blowers to push some air under the car to affect the batt. pack's bottom face, and that's on the condition it won't be covered with some aerostreaming plastics.. Not dissimilar to these diy setups when Tesla raced or used fast charger in Australian heat and had to use blowers/fans. The Roadster genII (and other models) will feature completely watercooled drivetrain, not only batt. pack.

The Tesla drive is a version of the air-cooled ACP drive which uses a squirrel cage fan. I always wondered why they never had water cooling, most likely the duty cycle was lower in non-Tesla applications. I know the MINI-E controller is turned down quite a bit. I really wish Nissan had a version of the ACP technology, it's brilliant.

AndyH

04-27-2010, 06:44 PM

The Nissan Leaf has no *active* cooling in the battery pack. I got this straight from Mark Perry at the Boston tour event.

In 'battery geek speak', "passive cooling" means only that the pack doesn't have it's own heating or cooling system. Current tech 'passive cooling' includes battery boxes vented to the outside with or without fans, and fans that move heated or cooled cabin air thru the pack. See page three in this doc. (http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/energystorage/pdfs/aabc_lv.pdf) And this post for more detail. (http://apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=51053&postcount=34)

Let's not get our knickers in a knot over vocabulary. ;)

Andy

AndyH

04-27-2010, 08:36 PM

Can anyone point me to the source of the info that the battery pack has an internal fan? Thanks!

These three docs have a TON of info on the LEAF and her systems. I claim (http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=51124&postcount=32)the 'finders fee' for the March 2010 doc and give credit for the other two to evnow (http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=51169&postcount=40).

October 2009 Nissan Leaf Overview (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXNDcxMWMzZWUtNmJjYy00MDIwL WEwNzctZDA5ODdhN2ZjMTE2&hl=en)

January 2010 Nissan Leaf Overview (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXYWRjZTZmMmEtZGNiZi00NjJjL WE4OWItZDA5ZGE4NTIyY2Iw&hl=en)

March 2010 Nissan Leaf Overview (http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/committee-documents/a15ZXF5X20100316100552.pdf)

The Oct 09 doc has the best info on the pack - see pages 11, 12 (crash testing!), 23 (cut-away with pack), 24 (pack with cover, dunk testing, icewater testing, etc.), 55 (overall pack diagram)

There are also great interior layout/headroom/foot room/cargo room diagrams with pack position shown on pages 38-40. Thinking about interior room? Think Prius and Gen 2 Insight... :thumbsup:

The map on page 17 shows where there are memorandums of understanding, partnerships, and other target markets. It appears to support some of the the roll-out progression 'rumors'. For those of us in the 'black pin' areas - are we going to make phone calls and/or mail the 'get off your butt and get us a charger' (http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/tags/show/infrastructure#/leaf-electric-car/advocacy/index) letters? ;)

There's additional battery info at the joint Nissan/NEC manufacturer AESC (http://www.eco-aesc.com/en/liion.html) - including thermal response info.

Happy Tuesday!
Andy

palmer_md

04-27-2010, 08:46 PM

Can anyone point me to the source of the info that the battery pack has an internal fan? Thanks!
Happy Tuesday!
Andy

The very first post in this thread has the links.

The key engineering trade-off Nissan has made is opting not to include active thermal management, where the temperature of the pack is controlled by an HVAC system similar to what cools the passenger cabin on a hot day. Instead, Nissan has opted to use only an internal fan that circulates the air within the sealed pack to evenly distribute the heat, which escapes by passive radiation through the pack’s external case.

Read More http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/01/nissan-leaf-2/#ixzz0mLpTyRo8

Second, and the point on which the article devotes most attention, is whether Nissan is "cutting corners" by forgoing an active thermal management (HVAC) system for the batteries. Instead Nissan is relying on air circulation with a fan.

Read More http://blogs.pluginamerica.org/outreach/2010/01/wired-blogger-takes-on-nissan-leaf.html

AndyH

04-27-2010, 10:11 PM

The very first post in this thread has the links.
Thanks very much Michael!

I think that once folks look at the Nissan PDFs they'll realize that the Wired article might not be accurate. There's not a lot of room in the battery box and there's not much an internal fan would really do for a bunch flat cells in stacked aluminum boxes.

I'll bet the 'passive' cooling the packs have is conduction thru the box. And I'll also bet that it's enough. I'm on record saying "there's no fan" and will put out a pizza bet. :D

What I really want to know is if the battery boxes have heating pads for winter - that's where folks will notice the performance loss. Lithium cells work better when hot - one of the reasons the KillaCycle (http://www.killacycle.com/) folks preheat the pack before running down the track.

Andy

evmavin

04-27-2010, 11:36 PM

SEGsby

04-27-2010, 11:53 PM

Mm, pizza... Nom.

KarenRei

04-27-2010, 11:55 PM

Yeah, modeling a pack in winter without a heater using some standard li-ion voltage discharge curves and assuming a minimum operating voltage of about 2/3rds maximum, I found a *huge* drop in range if you don't use heating. Now, if you can still drive on lower voltages, it's not as bad, but it's still a problem. Do remember that the pack does heat up while in use, and that resistive heaters burn a ton of power. So the optimum isn't to heat it up "a lot" -- just "enough"; there's a sweet spot. Oh, and it's a *big* benefit if you pre-heat your pack to the minimum temperature while still connected to the grid.

SEGsby

04-28-2010, 01:23 AM

Now it makes more sense why the one Leaf video I saw, had the car sitting in the living room. ;)

AndyH

04-28-2010, 06:32 PM

I'll take the bet that there is a fan in the pack. The fan is used to circulate the air within the pack so the batteries remain a relatively similar temp. Be careful on the pizza bets here, posters tend to disappear just after loosing, I have several outstanding and will be sending some thugs to collect soon. You know who you are:fighting0001:

All Righty Then - we're on. Do you have any moral or ethical restrictions on buying pizza with anchovies? :)

Level 1 'call' - are you relying solely on the Wired article or do you have a reliable source of info? ;)

Here're a couple of images from one of Nissan's papers:

http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/images/Leaf_Pack.jpg
http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/images/Leaf_pack2.jpg

There's no room between battery module cases for air to flow. The center of the pack is filled with wiring, safety switches, and breakers. A small fan would use energy and make noise but little else.

Andy
www.rechargeablelithiumpower.com

evmavin

04-28-2010, 08:32 PM

All Righty Then - we're on. Do you have any moral or ethical restrictions on buying pizza with anchovies? :)

Level 1 'call' - are you relying solely on the Wired article or do you have a reliable source of info? ;)

Here're a couple of images from one of Nissan's papers:

http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/images/Leaf_Pack.jpg
http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/images/Leaf_pack2.jpg

There's no room between battery module cases for air to flow. The center of the pack is filled with wiring, safety switches, and breakers. A small fan would use energy and make noise but little else.

Andy
www.rechargeablelithiumpower.com

No worries on the fish- if there is a fan inside or attached to the battery pack enclosure I win. Also, you would never hear a small fan and the consumption on even two efficient ones would be so insignificant it would be not worth mentioning. The fan only needs to circulate air not blast the inside of the pack. I need to lose a bet so I'm rolling the dice.

AndyH

04-28-2010, 11:45 PM

aptera1213

05-05-2010, 10:32 AM

ABG Linkage...click here :) (http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/05/report-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-costs-only-6-000-9-000-or/)

Nissan has the pack cost at 9k...SWEET....that must be why Nissan is claiming they will make a profit on the LEAF from day one...

Profit is good...it means the LEAF can survive on its own.

So much for all those crap papers stating that battery packs are $1000 or more a kWh....Nissan has theirs at $375 today (on par with the best cost you can find for crappy Chinese batteries). That should help keep costs down...and maybe put some pressure on other battery makers to cut the price of theirs...I'm looking at you A123...and Enerdel (though theirs is supposedly much less than the A123 battery).

Gavin

NeilBlanchard

05-05-2010, 12:38 PM

If the FVT team has done their research thoroughly, then it may well be that EiG (http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/applications/lev.htm) batteries are among the best performing and best value?

http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs032/1102017010071/archive/1103211731674.html

Oh, and Tata Motors will be using EiG batteries, as well.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/10/tata-motors-selects-eig-lithiumion-polymer-batteries-for-indica-vista-electric-vehicle-program.html

KarenRei

05-05-2010, 02:03 PM

spear-fish

05-05-2010, 10:27 PM

If a report in the Times of London is accurate, it would go a long way toward explaining Nissan's claims that the Leaf electric car will be profitable at just $33,000. The report, which focuses mainly on Nissan executive Andy Palmer, states that the 24 kilowatt-hour lithium ion battery pack for the EV costs only £6,000 (about $9,000) to produce. That works out to just $375 per kWh, a figure that no one else in the industry is currently claiming is possible.

This is huge..... if true.

http://green.autoblog.com/category/nissan/

KarenRei

05-05-2010, 11:56 PM

I have no reason to doubt it. They're going to be making 200,000 of these per year in TN alone. They better be able to get a good price at that volume!

Mesuge

05-12-2010, 05:08 AM

AndyH

05-12-2010, 09:04 AM

Yes, there's profit to be made from the batt. packs replacements, not spare parts or ICE like maintanace schedules, hence the Nissan's strategy with cheapo non temp managed disposable pack (the aircooled inner circulation only doesn't cut it for some climates).

For which climates is this pack not a good match?

Now, what's still missing from the picture is the replacement price for the pack after warranty. Nissan is clearly releasing the inconvenient truths just bit by bit, speculating that over-hyped consumers would buy in the end anyway. In my book this is bordering on dishonest campaign, especially after the much open spec-wise approach of Tesla and GM-Voltec team.

Absolute rubbish. Nissan has made clear that they do NOT yet have warranty specs and they do NOT yet have lease details. You actually suggest that GM should be held up as a gauge of honesty? I grew up in Flint, MI in a GM family. I've seen waaay too much of GM's 'honesty'. GM is so wrapped up in PR spin as they try to save their collective tails that I doubt many of THEM know the truth.

How many cars were on the road before Tesla released their pack price?

Here is the latest Leaf review from Yahoo, they speak about 5yrs lifespan for the pack too, and range derating issues I mentioned in the first post and elsewhere. The car company is about to make profit in the first place, not save planet earth, wake up.

Every company exists to make a profit first - otherwise they cannot do ANYTHING else. Profit and positive goals are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Here's info from a trusted source and someone that should have a clue - the SAE and a gent from Nissan USA (http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/vehic/7714) - Mark Perry is from Nissan USA and is in charge of the Leaf roll out (in other words - his butt is on the line if he messes this up).

"The "over 100 mi" (160 km) claim is derived from the U.S. EPA's LA-4 urban driving cycle, operation at well below the 90 mph (150 kph) top speed of the Leaf. The figure apparently does not include operation in an "ECO" mode, which could extend range about 15-20%, AEI was told. Also, there is the "running out of juice" mode, in which the car will operate at reduced power and accessory load."

"Perry said the first-generation battery pack is expected to retain 70-80% of its initial life after 10 years. The Leaf reportedly will maintain a 100-mi range for 10 years, even with the 20-30% battery deterioration. That would indicate that the 100-mi range is a conservative specification."

"The battery is high-density laminar-cell Li-ion type with manganese oxide in the cathode, characteristics of a design with low internal resistance, and as a result good thermal stability."

Info from an engineer that spent a number of hours of quality time with Nissan USA engineers and drive the car:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=2525#p2525

"I got a chance to drive the Leaf test vehicle in Phoenix. I spoke to two members of the design team and 3 members of the test team from Arizona. They have been testing the vehicle all over Arizona and their test track is on the west side of Phoenix near Sun City. They said that all of the cooling is conductive with no active cooling. When I asked about temperatures inside the battery, they replied that the temperature only rose 1 or 2 degrees above the ambient temperature. They did admit that the high temperatures reduced the mileage by 10 to 20%. They also said that they were doing tests in Japan's northern island of Hokkaido this last winter. So they have done an excellent job of testing performance under extreme environmental conditions."

You're certainly welcome to your opinions, even when they don't hold up to the light of facts. (But please don't take it personally if people giggle from time to time.)

Andy

chijayhawker

05-12-2010, 09:55 AM

Here is the latest Leaf review from Yahoo, they speak about 5yrs lifespan for the pack too, and range derating issues I mentioned in the first post and elsewhere. The car company is about to make profit in the first place, not save planet earth, wake up.

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1439/2011-nissan-leaf-first-drive/

My concern on relying on Yahoo for news is that I have seen a slant to their reporting. In this case it would be a slant to attempt to ruin the image of EVs in general. Maybe they are 100% right, but it is hard to determine if they are putting on the spin or if EV makers are. Even shooting in the middle in belief can harm the chance that EVs will become mainstream. A lackluster image won't be enough to make EVs popular enough to help reduce oil consumption, which is desperately needed in this country.

Mesuge

05-12-2010, 11:36 AM

andy> sorry your fanboyish rant is a bit misplaced, don't paint it as my opinions only, look at the very first post/links of this thread. There have been several indications that the Leaf's pack is targeted at ~5yrs lifespan/warranty only, including their own (Nissan's) presentation boards used during the PR tour/autoshow, where they explain the issue of energy storage/recycling for old packs. That included a scheme where a credit is issued for the owner based on the rest of the batt. capacity/utility to lessen the burden of buying brand new replacement pack. This might in the end change with providing longer warranty, so they as the company eat the costs for the first gen packs, all possible, but certainly THAT WAS NOT their original plan, otherwise they would have announced it properly months ago (so, ask your dear buddy Mr. Perry, not me, why they are one day implying ~5yrs warranty and on other ocassion talking about 8-10yrs, also ask him what's more important while testing it in Phoenix climate, winter/spring or summer time?).

Now, apply your math skills for honest range derating:
EPA range issues, temp issues, average %DoD, aging, .. ends up with ~70% realistic range of the claimed one after 5yrs usage in the [very] optimistic scenario.

Which is all nice and dandy, it's their corporate strategy and product afterall, what I'm talking about is the fact they launched the media hype and reservations before many of the important technical/warranty issues and prices are known to the public. That seems as rather unconvincing way how to launch a product.

Pls. don't use strawman tactics, it's rather silly, I was specificially talking about the info released in those EV related projects (Tesla, GM-Voltec), which have been by all independent metrics clearly more informative and forthcomming during development and pre-launch phase of their products in comparison to just haphazzardly released claims by Nissan up to this point. Btw. I have no illusions about the overall ICE/EV industry (Detroit, or elsewhere).

NeilBlanchard

05-12-2010, 12:21 PM

Where is the 5 year warranty mentioned?

I have only heard about a 10 year warranty -- straight from Mark Perry.

Mesuge

05-12-2010, 01:01 PM

Several sources, including reviewers, last example the Yahoo guys report 5yrs warranty..
It's quite outlandish that they have not been able to release the warranty related specs up to this advanced point, also given their "17 yrs of lithium EV" pedigree claims hah.

I was talking about their projected batt. lifespan, as they presented it in their PR recycling related materials. So, they expect you to trade-in the battery after 5yrs for a "credit" on the replacement pack, as to whether is it reasonable to expect 5yrs warranty from this scheme or not, I don't know, it depends on their overall strategy, i.e. Toyota subsidized their genI (II early) HSD hybrids (incl. long pack warranty), now supposedly makes a profit on each unit sold. Also, some people might enjoy the combination of favourable factors (climate, driving profile, ..) that they will not be pushed to have it replaced as early, I'm not bashing Leaf per se. In any case, so far 8-10 yrs warranty has been hybrid or extended range EV category (low DoD) only..

SlowSRT4

05-12-2010, 01:37 PM

I don't think it is that bad that they haven't released warranty information yet. It is not like anybody else is releasing that information. Plus, the Leaf is not rolling out until 2011 (a few units will be released December 2010 for PR purposes, however) and not hitting production capacity until 2012.

aptera1213

05-12-2010, 01:39 PM

quite outlandish...

hehe...

We will likely know in June...about 6 months before anybody can buy one...18 months before they are released countrywide.

Sigh....Of course the first few early adopters will not have a year to read and re-read the fine print like most future buyers. But then early adopters don't usually need a year to understand. A few months is plenty of time for them to either pull that huge 99 buck reservation fee, or to accept whatever warranty that comes with the LEAF.

I think we will all be fine. Either the battery comes with an 8 year warranty, or a 10 year...the two numbers I've heard the most. Or it could come with a 5, but I doubt it.

Neither matters much to me as I plan to lease. But if the LEAF comes with a great warranty (10 years, 100k or more) well I might just buy instead of lease. Either way I plan to get one until I can get a Fiat 500EV.

Gavin

AndyH

05-12-2010, 04:55 PM

andy> sorry your fanboyish rant is a bit misplaced, don't paint it as my opinions only, look at the very first post/links of this thread.

I've read the info you linked in the first post. The Wired article has already been proven to be wrong. Much of the garbage floating around the internet is little more than circular reporting.

I'm an analyst and don't play in the 'fanboy' zone - but I also don't play in the 'eternal pessimist that bashes something without providing data' zone either.

There have been several indications that the Leaf's pack is targeted at ~5yrs lifespan/warranty only, including their own (Nissan's) presentation boards used during the PR tour/autoshow, where they explain the issue of energy storage/recycling for old packs. That included a scheme where a credit is issued for the owner based on the rest of the batt. capacity/utility to lessen the burden of buying brand new replacement pack. This might in the end change with providing longer warranty, so they as the company eat the costs for the first gen packs, all possible, but certainly THAT WAS NOT their original plan, otherwise they would have announced it properly months ago (so, ask your dear buddy Mr. Perry, not me, why they are one day implying ~5yrs warranty and on other ocassion talking about 8-10yrs, also ask him what's more important while testing it in Phoenix climate, winter/spring or summer time?).

Your 'warranty' complaints are completely groundless because Nissan has confirmed that they have not yet released warranty info. You seem to find recycling and/or end of life plans to be questionable. Are you also critical of Tesla's battery recycling plans? Does GM have any pack recycling plan? Please tell me why I should value your assessment of Nissan's plan.

Now, apply your math skills for honest range derating:
EPA range issues, temp issues, average %DoD, aging, .. ends up with ~70% realistic range of the claimed one after 5yrs usage in the [very] optimistic scenario.

Nope. You're way off here in spite of using the word 'honest' in a sentence. Yes - cell capacity will drop as the cell ages - both in use and if the cell sits unused. Yes - temperatures, load, speeds, and likely phase of the moon can affect range. The good news is that you are not the only person on the planet that knows this. In order for a vehicle to maintain a specified range after 10 years, the pack can simply be increased in size.

Which is all nice and dandy, it's their corporate strategy and product afterall, what I'm talking about is the fact they launched the media hype and reservations before many of the important technical/warranty issues and prices are known to the public. That seems as rather unconvincing way how to launch a product.

Pls. don't use strawman tactics, it's rather silly, I was specificially talking about the info released in those EV related projects (Tesla, GM-Voltec), which have been by all independent metrics clearly more informative and forthcomming during development and pre-launch phase of their products in comparison to just haphazzardly released claims by Nissan up to this point. Btw. I have no illusions about the overall ICE/EV industry (Detroit, or elsewhere).

Can you reference the independent metrics for the systems? For Voltec - why has it taken so long for GM to allow journalists to drive the car as it transitions into charge sustaining mode?

Andy

NeilBlanchard

05-12-2010, 05:16 PM

Mark Perry works for Nissan; I tend to think that he knows what he is talking about...

SlowSRT4

05-12-2010, 05:19 PM

For Voltec - why has it taken so long for GM to allow journalists to drive the car as it transitions into charge sustaining mode?
The transition to and from charge-sustaining mode is what they have been primarily working on toward the end of their development cycle. Obviously that requires a lot of work and tweaking and testing.

Operating on pure electricity is quite easy, but turning a generator on and off, and making that feel seamless to the driver, is rather tricky.

Mesuge

05-13-2010, 04:41 AM

This is getting ridiculous, I only repeatedly stated the info provided by Nissan, which indicates 5yrs lifespan in their batt. replacement/recycling scheme (hence sub 8yrs basic warranty), Perry claims something different, the official warranty position is not released yet, industry insiders commenting on Nissan story tell something different, reviews based on interaction with Nissan people tell otherwise etc. I don't question their recycling policy at all. Your argument is weak not the other way around..

On the other hand, e.g. the Voltec engineering guys are on the record numerous times, saying they guarantee only 20% capacity loss after 8-10yrs (yes it's a "different" technology, %DoD), and beyond reasonable doubt given the additional corp. statements the warranty will be in the same ballpark, my emphasis is simply on information supply. As these cars will be released in similar timeframe, I just find the Nissan's campaign up to this point bordering on dishonest one, perhaps this is just splitting hair (as they claim releasing full info next month), but that's how many feel it.

You see, we are not in point zero on the timeline, the HSD hybrids have proven record of 10yrs warranty/fleets over 200k miles, we have got the experience with the BEV fleets of the mid 1990s etc. Simply, Nissan's obfuscations are quite strange today, their "17yrs EV experience" is bogus marketing joke, they are licensensing HSD from Toyota, and their ZEV mandate cars were not released to public as Toyota/Ford did, so there is no independent record.

Your idea that after ~10yrs simply replacing derated pack with higher capacity one is again nice and dandy only on the surface. Firstly, you don't know there will be even optional 10yrs warranty for sure (conflicting information as of now), secondly the derating issue might be quite severe after say 5yrs (for certain combination of climate & driving profile), so some people might not be happy to plunk down ~$5-10k if they want to retain the same performance as with the brand new car, only after say 5-7yrs of ownership. Unless further details released, this possibility of <<10yrs pack replacement need creates havoc in terms of calculating comparative overall cost of ownership against other full EVs, mild/strong hybrids, PHEVs, 3rd party PHEV kits, extended range EVs, modern s&g diesels (70mpg), LPG/CNG cars and what have you on the market. Which is the most or second most important metrics for some, but not that important for others, like BEV first adopters etc. No value judgment placed on that decision making process/personal preferences. In summary, the idea that in the near/post peak oil world people will be flipping cars/replacement packs as t-shirts is beyond me..

SlowSRT4

05-17-2010, 01:24 AM

I think that this article puts things in perspective.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/15/nissan-leaf-profitable-by-year-three-battery-cost-closer-to-18/

aptera1213

05-17-2010, 11:05 AM

I have never seen an official post from Nissan stating that the battery is only 5 years.

June will tell us more. Nissan will sell tons of them and other car companies will be playing catch up. It is a good time to be wanting an EV...the next few years are going to be the start of something great...and Nissan is helping that with a strong first effort.

Thanks Nissan

Gavin

NeilBlanchard

05-17-2010, 01:54 PM

I don't think the Wall Street Journal knows any better than anybody else. But even as a loss-leader, spending well over half of the cost on the battery doesn't make any sense. It may not be a low as $375/kWh, but I'll bet that is closer to the truth than the WSJ number (of about $791/kWh).

AndyH

05-19-2010, 09:41 PM

pVwtwhvmK0I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVwtwhvmK0I

One of the best inside/outside overviews of the Leaf. Nissan's Perry talks about the car, aerodynamics, range, why LA4, heat and AC efficiency, the battery, and lights.

I highly recommend Vaporware-Volt 'fanboys' not watch because the video includes a frank look at real-world range expectations. (Extra credit for anyone that adds the 'distance traveled' to the 'range remaining' on the instrument display.) ;)

:biggrin:

AndyH

05-19-2010, 10:14 PM

This is getting ridiculous, I only repeatedly stated the info provided by Nissan, which indicates 5yrs lifespan in their batt.
<blah blah blah snipped>

Let me start by agreeing with you 100% when you suggested this is getting ridiculous. :D Beyond that, you seem to think your selective presentation of cherry-picked-facts-wrapped-as-FUD-fodder is disguised more than it is. ;)

On the other hand, e.g. the Voltec engineering guys... <voltec fanboy blah snipped>

I don't care about GM, new or old. Moving on...

You see, we are not in point zero on the timeline, the HSD hybrids have proven record of 10yrs warranty/fleets over 200k miles, <assorted other BS snipped>

With respect, what has Toyota's hybrid system got to do with anyone's EV again? Nothing? Gotcha - Thanks!

and their ZEV mandate cars were not released to public as Toyota/Ford did, so there is no independent record.

Now - I am very sorry to hear about this. :( I would have thought that Nissan, after building at least two model years of the world's first lithium-ion powered EV, would have at least had their vehicles evaluated by an independent organization. Thanks for setting me straight on this!

Southern California Edison Performance Characterization - 1999 Nissan Altra EV (http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/sce_rpt/altra_report.pdf)

Southern California Edison Performance Characterization - 2000 Nissan Altra EV (http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/sce_rpt/2000nissanaltra.pdf)

Your idea that after ~10yrs simply replacing derated pack with higher capacity one is again nice and dandy only on the surface. Firstly, you don't know there will be even optional 10yrs warranty for sure...

Warranty has nothing to do with swapping the battery pack. Current S10, E10, and Ranger EV owners have had to dig into the pack multiple times as the lead aged, and some to swap NiMH cells. Others do it to replace the dinosaur-tech packs with lithium iron phosphate and move from 40 miles to ~100 miles range. Frankly, having broken packs down, I actually do think it's nice and dandy!

... (conflicting information as of now), secondly the derating issue might be quite severe after say 5yrs (for certain combination of climate & driving profile),

And it might not. Nissan has multiple years of summer testing in Arizona (this is a very hot place) and does winter testing in Japan (a very cold place) making your fears irrelevant FUD.

so some people might not be happy to plunk down ~$5-10k if they want to retain the same performance as with the brand new car, only after say 5-7yrs of ownership.

Continued FUD. Nissan has already gone on record saying that they have designed the pack to provide full tested range after 10 years. ("Perry said the first-generation battery pack is expected to retain 70-80% of its initial life after 10 years. The Leaf reportedly will maintain a 100-mi range for 10 years, even with the 20-30% battery deterioration. That would indicate that the 100-mi range is a conservative specification.") (http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/vehic/7714) <- SAE BTW. This strongly implies the car starts with a pack of larger than necessary capacity to allow for the expected 20-30% capacity loss. Therefore the rest of your thoughts are comical but irrelevant.

In summary, the idea that in the near/post peak oil world people will be flipping cars/replacement packs as t-shirts is beyond me..

That's fine. I work with LiFePO4 cells and assemble cell management systems so I might not be the best yardstick with which to compare post peak oil t-shirt flippers. I'll check with the worms in my kitchen that recycle my veggie scraps and see what they think about battery swapping. They're likely to think swapping is OK though - hermaphrodites are like that. ;)

Take care,
Andy

SlowSRT4

05-20-2010, 12:46 AM

I highly recommend Vaporware-Volt 'fanboys' not watch because the video includes a frank look at real-world range expectations. (Extra credit for anyone that adds the 'distance traveled' to the 'range remaining' on the instrument display.) ;)

:biggrin:
You think the Volt is vaporware? Ok.....

Wouldn't "real-world range expectations" be to the Volt's advantage, seeing as it has no range anxiety issue?

aptera1213

05-20-2010, 08:27 AM

Vaporware can become real...but something is vaporware if it has had many delays and changes...the 2e is vaporware at this time...lots of promises, no sales.

In fact the Volt is surprisingly more vaporware at the moment than the 2e...at least a few average people have driven the 2e...nobody but a few reporters have driven a Volt.

That said, I think the Volt will change from Vapor to fact.

But compare it to the LEAF...physical model didn't change, Nissan gave release schedule and has kept to it. Nissan has taken show model across the states. Hundreds of random people have test drove it. Reservations taken, price set...

The LEAF is rolling out like the Fiesta or like any new model year car. The Volt is rolling out like it is the new space shuttle replacement for Nasa...lots of delays and changes and mystery on prices and timing and all that.

Gavin

NeilBlanchard

05-20-2010, 08:59 AM

Thanks for the video link, Andy!

aptera1213

05-20-2010, 10:36 AM

Yeah, thanks...very nice video...as a bonus i like that at the 10:15 to 10:30 mark you see the Fiat 500 in the background :)

I have moved from wanting to lease, to probably buying...the only thing that might get me still to lease is the dealer markup...can they mark up a lease??

Gavin

evmavin

05-20-2010, 11:00 AM

I'm waiting for the video where they say charging can be in as little as four hours rather than eight. Since there are two trim packages like many cars there also may be options to be added come june, perhaps charging for a 6.6kw charger.

palmer_md

05-20-2010, 12:09 PM

In fact the Volt is surprisingly more vaporware at the moment than the 2e...at least a few average people have driven the 2e...nobody but a few reporters have driven a Volt.

That said, I think the Volt will change from Vapor to fact.

But compare it to the LEAF...physical model didn't change, Nissan gave release schedule and has kept to it. Nissan has taken show model across the states. Hundreds of random people have test drove it. Reservations taken, price set...

The LEAF is rolling out like the Fiesta or like any new model year car. The Volt is rolling out like it is the new space shuttle replacement for Nasa...lots of delays and changes and mystery on prices and timing and all that.

Gavin

I respectfully disagree. The Volt has always had a November 2010 release date (2011 model release) and they have followed the schedule for that quite closely. There have been no delays in the schedule, nor changes to the car mid-development. They have been very methodical in their slow release of information about the vehicle, and have not yet even set a price, and it is true that not many have driven the car, but that does not make it vaporware.

NeilBlanchard

05-20-2010, 12:45 PM

Hi Gavin,

Yeah, thanks...very nice video...as a bonus i like that at the 10:15 to 10:30 mark you see the Fiat 500 in the background :)

It looks like Goldmember's Fiat 500! :biggrin:

AndyH

05-20-2010, 04:36 PM

You think the Volt is vaporware? Ok.....

Wouldn't "real-world range expectations" be to the Volt's advantage, seeing as it has no range anxiety issue?

I personally don't see the volt system as an advantage. I'm a bit annoyed that GM is trying to market their hybrid car in the EV space - I see that as trying to pull some of the EV community back into ICE, rather than promoting ICE folks to move to EV. That's a good business decision for a company that builds ICE, is in financial trouble, and makes more money selling parts and service than vehicles.

I don't have range anxiety issues with my VW diesel and it's 700 mile range until I'm driving from NYC to Boston, the fuel gauge is in the red, and I forgot that the NE doesn't have diesel at most fuel stations like other parts of the country. I didn't have range anxiety issues when I operated a number of motorcycles from 125cc thru 650cc and their different sized fuel tanks, and didn't have range anxiety issues when I operated snowmobiles thru the UP of Michigan woods. I didn't have range anxiety issues when I flew a Cessna 150 from St Louis to central Florida and back. My primary transportation for the past 14 months has been a Chinese electric motorcycle with a 60 mile range at 25 and 44 miles if I ride it hard.

If one chooses the vehicle based on the mission needs 'range anxiety' is only a distraction.

GM is simply doing what many other sales processes do - point out a potential customer's 'pain', grind in it so the customer feels the pain, then provide a solution to the 'problem'. Focusing on 'range anxiety' - in other words turning something that is NOT a problem into a perceived problem - is using FUD as a marketing tool. Nothing more.

Andy

AndyH

05-20-2010, 05:13 PM

Thanks for the video link, Andy!

My pleasure!

We're collecting decent Leaf and charging infrastructure info on 'the other forum (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewforum.php?f=15)'. The five Nissan papers are a great starting place (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=255). These papers have been found in DC computers and in Texas city computers - it appears these are being used by Nissan to promote the electrification of their target regions.

There are a number of groups working on policy and infrastructure. They include Nissan, the Electrification Coalition (http://www.electrificationcoalition.org/), The Rocky Mountain Institute (http://www.rmi.org/rmi/) and their Project Get Ready (http://projectgetready.com/). Also supporting the move from oil to electrons is The Pickens Plan (http://www.pickensplan.com/theplan/) (windmills and grid upgrades good, natural gas not so much), the Rocky Mountain Institute's Winning the Oil Endgame (http://www.oilendgame.com/index.html), and CNA's Powering America's Defense (http://www.cna.org/documents/poweringamericasdefense.pdf).

I really think there are finally enough people working on the 'oil off-ramp'. Once that's complete it will be much easier for more folks to get off the old system and start homesteading in the new territories. :)

Andy

evmavin

05-20-2010, 06:33 PM

I personally don't see the volt system as an advantage. I'm a bit annoyed that GM is trying to market their hybrid car in the EV space - I see that as trying to pull some of the EV community back into ICE, rather than promoting ICE folks to move to EV. That's a good business decision for a company that builds ICE, is in financial trouble, and makes more money selling parts and service than vehicles.

I don't have range anxiety issues with my VW diesel and it's 700 mile range until I'm driving from NYC to Boston, the fuel gauge is in the red, and I forgot that the NE doesn't have diesel at most fuel stations like other parts of the country. I didn't have range anxiety issues when I operated a number of motorcycles from 125cc thru 650cc and their different sized fuel tanks, and didn't have range anxiety issues when I operated snowmobiles thru the UP of Michigan woods. I didn't have range anxiety issues when I flew a Cessna 150 from St Louis to central Florida and back. My primary transportation for the past 14 months has been a Chinese electric motorcycle with a 60 mile range at 25 and 44 miles if I ride it hard.

If one chooses the vehicle based on the mission needs 'range anxiety' is only a distraction.

GM is simply doing what many other sales processes do - point out a potential customer's 'pain', grind in it so the customer feels the pain, then provide a solution to the 'problem'. Focusing on 'range anxiety' - in other words turning something that is NOT a problem into a perceived problem - is using FUD as a marketing tool. Nothing more.

Andy

What else did you expect them to do, build an EV with a 150-200 mile range? The logical step from an EV1 is a bloated hybrid with a limited electric range every target buyer will exceed repeatedly. It is not an EV.

SlowSRT4

05-20-2010, 07:32 PM

I personally don't see the volt system as an advantage. I'm a bit annoyed that GM is trying to market their hybrid car in the EV space - I see that as trying to pull some of the EV community back into ICE, rather than promoting ICE folks to move to EV. That's a good business decision for a company that builds ICE, is in financial trouble, and makes more money selling parts and service than vehicles.

I don't have range anxiety issues with my VW diesel and it's 700 mile range until I'm driving from NYC to Boston, the fuel gauge is in the red, and I forgot that the NE doesn't have diesel at most fuel stations like other parts of the country. I didn't have range anxiety issues when I operated a number of motorcycles from 125cc thru 650cc and their different sized fuel tanks, and didn't have range anxiety issues when I operated snowmobiles thru the UP of Michigan woods. I didn't have range anxiety issues when I flew a Cessna 150 from St Louis to central Florida and back. My primary transportation for the past 14 months has been a Chinese electric motorcycle with a 60 mile range at 25 and 44 miles if I ride it hard.

If one chooses the vehicle based on the mission needs 'range anxiety' is only a distraction.

GM is simply doing what many other sales processes do - point out a potential customer's 'pain', grind in it so the customer feels the pain, then provide a solution to the 'problem'. Focusing on 'range anxiety' - in other words turning something that is NOT a problem into a perceived problem - is using FUD as a marketing tool. Nothing more.

Andy
So basically:
GM = bad

You could have just said that without typing a whole paper. Certainly you didn't say anything meaningful in those paragraphs, you just reiterated your slanted opinion of GM multiple times. :evilgrin0013:

AndyH

05-20-2010, 07:41 PM

So basically:
GM = bad

You could have just said that without typing a whole paper. Certainly you didn't say anything meaningful in those paragraphs, you just reiterated your slanted opinion of GM multiple times. :evilgrin0013:

If that was my point, it would have been much more efficient to express it as you so masterfully did.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you. Enjoy your Volt.

SlowSRT4

05-20-2010, 08:14 PM

If that was my point, it would have been much more efficient to express it as you so masterfully did.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you. Enjoy your Volt.
I'm getting a Fiat 500, and sorry but I don't feel the need to hate products other than the ones I use. In my mind competition is a good thing, and I have no bias towards any company.

You are evidently the one with some kind of issue. I don't see you posting a bunch of nonsense about the plug-in Prius or any other vehicles besides the Volt. :sick0026:

AndyH

05-20-2010, 10:15 PM

I'm getting a Fiat 500, and sorry but I don't feel the need to hate products other than the ones I use. In my mind competition is a good thing, and I have no bias towards any company.

You are evidently the one with some kind of issue. I don't see you posting a bunch of nonsense about the plug-in Prius or any other vehicles besides the Volt. :sick0026:

The message one gets when reading a document reflects their beliefs and prejudices more than the author's. The focus of my message was that I don't feel the need to accept a company's marketing message. I then shared a broader view of a sales tactic I learned when I started selling (but choose not to use) in the hopes that awareness would allow others to see it for what it is. You apparently saw it only as GM bashing. So be it.

I don't waste my time with 'hate' and also believe competition in the marketplace is a good thing.

Sorry. Enjoy your Fiat.

[edit] Here's an example of competition in the serial-hybrid space. I look forward to your thoughts. In 2003 a battery and consumer device company with zero auto experience bought a defunct car factory. By early 2009 they had shipped 100 range extended EVs with a 62 mile electric range. They are ten percent owned by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technology/gunther_electric.fortune/), and are in China. Why can BYD do - without being ~60% owned by the state - what GM apparently cannot?

Cheers.

randyd

05-21-2010, 12:05 PM

You are evidently the one with some kind of issue.

I don't waste my time with 'hate' and also believe competition in the marketplace is a good thing.

Please don't waste the time of every reader of this forum with personal attacks.

Thank you.

KarenRei

05-21-2010, 02:16 PM

All right, everybody simmer down now. :fighting0027:

I think this has gone on long enough. :) Anyone else want to go back to the original topic -- the Leaf's battery pack?

DonC

05-22-2010, 03:19 AM

So from this thread we know the Nissan pack will have some kind of warranty, costs $18K, and doesn't use liquid heating or cooling.

aptera1213

05-22-2010, 09:14 AM

Costs less than 18k....could be 17999, could be 9k, could be somewhere in-between.

Gavin

DonC

05-22-2010, 11:52 AM

Costs less than 18k....could be 17999, could be 9k, could be somewhere in-between.
Not really unless you're suggesting that Nissan is being intentionally deceptive. If it were less than $17K they'd say "less than $17K", so you have to believe it's more like $17,999 than even to $17,000, where it would be described as "about $17K". IOW when Nissan describes the 0-60 times as "under 10 seconds" it doesn't mean 3.5 seconds.

When you look at the 0-60 times you also have to think the power density is little lower than you'd like. The battery pack in the Volt has been criticized as wanting on the power dimension but it will move the Volt, which I think is a slightly heavier car, to 60 MPH a little faster (under 9 seconds as compared to under 10 seconds) than the Leaf's pack will take the Leaf to the same speed, though perhaps this is due to the Volt's electronic transmission rather than the pack.

NeilBlanchard

05-22-2010, 12:22 PM

Actually, it doesn't use any active cooling. And I don't know if I trust the WSJ (owned by Rupert Murdoch) to be very objective on the cost. Somehow, I can't see how Nissan could pay for ~60% of the total cost of the car to one component alone. ~28% of the total cost going for the battery pack is far more plausible.

SlowSRT4

05-22-2010, 01:46 PM

Not really unless you're suggesting that Nissan is being intentionally deceptive. If it were less than $17K they'd say "less than $17K", so you have to believe it's more like $17,999 than even to $17,000, where it would be described as "about $17K". IOW when Nissan describes the 0-60 times as "under 10 seconds" it doesn't mean 3.5 seconds.

When you look at the 0-60 times you also have to think the power density is little lower than you'd like. The battery pack in the Volt has been criticized as wanting on the power dimension but it will move the Volt, which I think is a slightly heavier car, to 60 MPH a little faster (under 9 seconds as compared to under 10 seconds) than the Leaf's pack will take the Leaf to the same speed, though perhaps this is due to the Volt's electronic transmission rather than the pack.
Volt is more powerful than the Leaf according to unofficial specs.

Volt:
110-120 kW power
370 Nm torque
100 mph top speed

Leaf:
80 kW power
280 Nm torque
90 mph top speed

Also, the Volt should only weigh 400-500 lbs more than the Leaf. The main reason why its range is so much less is that it only has a 16 kwh pack, and only 8 kwh of that is actually useable.

evnow

05-22-2010, 02:04 PM

Not really unless you're suggesting that Nissan is being intentionally deceptive. If it were less than $17K they'd say "less than $17K", so you have to believe it's more like $17,999 than even to $17,000, where it would be described as "about $17K".

Depends on who that "they" is. We have multiple Nissan / AESC people say multiple things about the battery. With a high of "less than 18K" - all the way to #6K ($9k) and several numbers in between.

evmavin

05-22-2010, 05:15 PM

Volt is more powerful than the Leaf according to unofficial specs.

Volt:
110-120 kW power
370 Nm torque
100 mph top speed

Leaf:
80 kW power
280 Nm torque
90 mph top speed

Also, the Volt should only weigh 400-500 lbs more than the Leaf. The main reason why its range is so much less is that it only has a 16 kwh pack, and only 8 kwh of that is actually useable.

Only 400-500 lbs, that has a huge impact on acceleration. The volt is a pig in weight.

SlowSRT4

05-22-2010, 06:08 PM

Only 400-500 lbs, that has a huge impact on acceleration. The volt is a pig in weight.
The 0-60 for the Volt is supposed to be around 8.5 seconds I believe.

None of the journalists have described it as a pig, they all said it felt quick.

The Leaf is also probably around that acceleration figure, and the Volt has a 10 mph higher top-end. So I don't think it looks like a clear acceleration advantage for the Leaf at this point.

NeilBlanchard

05-22-2010, 06:18 PM

Another important difference between the Leaf and the Volt, is the Leaf is probably much roomier; and technically it seats 5 while the Volt seats 4. The Volt's battery tunnel splits the rear seats making them effectively into bucket seats. And in general, the Volt looks very typical GM with thick/bulky seats and doors, etc. Almost every GM car that I have ever sat in feels a lot smaller inside than you would expect them to be.

I have not seen the Volt in person, but I have seen the Leaf. The Leaf looks big to me, and having the flat floor (front and back) without a hump, will allow it to be far more practical. The hatch area on the Leaf looks pretty cavernous, frankly.

DonC

05-23-2010, 12:43 AM

I have not seen the Volt in person, but I have seen the Leaf. The Leaf looks big to me, and having the flat floor (front and back) without a hump, will allow it to be far more practical. The hatch area on the Leaf looks pretty cavernous, frankly.
I've been in both. They're about the same size. Can't say much about the backseat as I didn't sit in the backseat of either, but just by looking you can see that neither offers a ton of space in the back. Because of the hump for the battery pack the Volt has four bucket seats, which obviously makes it suitable for four only, but that didn't seem much of a deal to me because the back buckets seemed nicer than standard bench seating and I wouldn't want anyone to be the fifth person in the Leaf.

Both cars looked and felt on the small side to me, which may just be the result of the size vehicle I'm used to.

DonC

05-23-2010, 01:12 AM

What else did you expect them to do, build an EV with a 150-200 mile range? The logical step from an EV1 is a bloated hybrid with a limited electric range every target buyer will exceed repeatedly. It is not an EV.
By definition, since the Volt is always powered by one or more electric motors, it is an EV. For that matter the Honda FX Clarity is likewise an EV.

You're conflating the drive with the power source. The Leaf is an battery electric vehicle. The Volt is a battery electric vehicle and a gas/E85 electric vehicle. The FX Clarity is a hydrogen electric vehicle. What I suspect you meant to say is that the Volt is not a BEV.

As for whether that's a good thing, the answer is that you should never buy more battery than you need. That would be a waste. I'd rarely if ever use the Volt's range extender since I normally drive less than about 25 miles in a day. For longer trips I'd use a larger ICE car. But if that option wasn't available to me I wouldn't be able to use a Leaf because those days usually involve driving 150 miles at fairly high speeds. Likewise, some people, including at least one who posts here, go less than ten miles a day. Why would they pay for and lug around a huge battery they'd never use? A plug in Prius would probably work best for them. Basically what car works best for you depends on your driving habits

evmavin

05-23-2010, 01:31 AM

[QUOTE=DonC]By definition, since the Volt is always powered by one or more electric motors, it is an EV. For that matter the Honda FX Clarity is likewise an EV.

You're conflating the drive with the power source. The Leaf is an battery electric vehicle. The Volt is a battery electric vehicle and a gas/E85 electric vehicle. The FX Clarity is a hydrogen electric vehicle. What I suspect you meant to say is that the Volt is not a BEV.

As for whether that's a good thing, the answer is that you should never buy more battery than you need. That would be a waste. I'd rarely if ever use the Volt's range extender since I normally drive less than about 25 miles in a day. For longer trips I'd use a larger ICE car. But if that option wasn't available to me I wouldn't be able to use a Leaf because those days usually involve driving 150 miles at fairly high speeds. Likewise, some people, including at least one who posts here, go less than ten miles a day. Why would they pay for and lug around a huge battery they'd never use? A plug in Prius would probably work best for them. Basically what car works best for you depends on your driving habits[/QUOTE

So a hummer with electric motors and a 100 kw gas guzzling generator and a battery bank is is an EV. Should qualify for the diamond lane then. Sounds like GM logic.

DonC

05-23-2010, 05:02 PM

So a hummer with electric motors and a 100 kw gas guzzling generator and a battery bank is is an EV. Should qualify for the diamond lane then. Sounds like GM logic.
Under your reasoning when I turn on a light switch I don't necessarily have electricity flow to the light bulb because whether something can be defined as "electricity" depends on the generation process. In my mind I'm getting electricity and it matters not for this purpose whether the electricity has been generated from hydro, sun, wind, nuclear, natural gas or coal. Likewise if a car is driven by electric motors it's an EV, and it matters not if the electricity driving the motors is being generated by a battery or hydrogen or diesel or a gasoline.

You're allowing yourself to become a prisoner of your preconceptions of what you think an EV should be. All BEVs are EVs, but not all EVs are BEVs.

aptera1213

05-23-2010, 06:35 PM

For me it is simple...if I have to stop at a gas station and fill my gas tank with gas, I have a gasoline using car. If I plug in each night at home, and never ever ever put a drop of gasoline in my car, i have an electric car.

Now if I have a car that sometimes runs on home electricity and sometimes needs to burn gas to make electricity, I have a hybrid.

Now the Volt might always turn it's wheels with an electric motor, but if you need gasoline in that car to run that motor, then you don't have an electric only car...you have a gas and electric car. Which is fine, but call it what is is...a gas and electric car, or hybrid.

Gavin

evmavin

05-23-2010, 08:39 PM

SEGsby

05-23-2010, 09:38 PM

Diesel-Electric Trains from the 1920's-30's are also hybrids...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric_transmission

The Volt is essentially the same idea-- just repackaged to look like a weird Malabu. :P

Malabu:
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/7/F/b/gm_08malibu_frt.jpg

Volt:
http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/09/gm-volt-unveiled.jpg

SlowSRT4

05-24-2010, 02:27 AM

Now the Volt might always turn it's wheels with an electric motor, but if you need gasoline in that car to run that motor, then you don't have an electric only car...you have a gas and electric car. Which is fine, but call it what is is...a gas and electric car, or hybrid.
No, you don't need gas to run the motor. There is only one motor, which is electric. There is a battery pack hooked up directly to that electric motor. Then there is a flex-fuel generator hooked up to the battery pack which turns on once the battery is depleted.

The fact that the generator only turns on once the battery is depleted, should be a very good indication that you are dealing with an Electric Vehicle. Of course, whether somebody wants a generator or not is completely personal preference. But there is obviously a market for it, people have even discussed towing a generator behind an Aptera or other EVs.

NeilBlanchard

05-24-2010, 08:50 AM

The Volt is a [plug-in] serial hybrid.

SlowSRT4

05-24-2010, 11:59 AM

The Volt is a Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicle.

DonC

05-26-2010, 11:48 AM

The Volt is a [plug-in] serial hybrid.
Yup. And the Nissan Leaf is a battery electric vehicle (BEV). Neither of these observations answers the the question, which is whether a vehicle driven entirely by motors is an electric vehicle. If you think this isn't the case, don't argue with me, argue with these guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 12:15 PM

Furthermore, if you want to take such a ludicrously strict definition of saying that the Volt is NOT an EV, then really neither is the Leaf. Coal can recharge its batteries. Somebody could have a gas generator at their house and charge the Leaf 100% with that generator.

Somebody could run out of battery and get stranded on the side of the road, such that they have to have their Leaf towed home, which would burn a lot of gas.

Where do you draw the line? These EVs aren't powered by good intentions.

Schrodinger

05-26-2010, 12:28 PM

Furthermore, if you want to take such a ludicrously strict definition of saying that the Volt is NOT an EV, then really neither is the Leaf. Coal can recharge its batteries...

Or I could say that the Hummer H2 is a solar-powered vehicle, 'cuz that is where the energy came from. Gasoline is just a storage medium.

Is there a point to arguing these semantics?

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 02:01 PM

Or I could say that the Hummer H2 is a solar-powered vehicle, 'cuz that is where the energy came from. Gasoline is just a storage medium.

Is there a point to arguing these semantics?
No, there isn't a point, but I'm not the lunatic saying that the Volt is NOT an EV. :confused:

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 02:29 PM

Eh, lunatic is a bit harsh, but what the heck...the internet is fluid...terms are bandied about fairly loosely...

The Volt is a hybrid...it should be proud of that and sing it out loud...it is a selling point for it...and yes in some ways it is an electric vehicle...but it also takes gas in a gas tank...so in some ways it is a gas vehicle too...does it put out emissions from a tailpipe?

Yes a LEAF or other BEVs can have a long tail pipe...or, like mine, will be used with solar panels on my roof...no tail pipe at all (long or short)...the current Volt will never be that (unless you plug up the gas tank with cement or something), but that is ok...we need lots of different options...

So can the Volt be as clean as a BEV? Yep. Some BEVs will have a long tailpipe back to less clean sources (though we can also argue about the degree...a single factory is easily to keep cleaner than millions of cars etc etc).

Can a pure solar BEV be cleaner than any Volt. Yep. Much much cleaner.

Can a Volt go solar BEV? Yep...but why would it. Short range and you have to remove the gas tank. Why would anybody want the Volt without the gas tank?

It's good that the Volt is a hybrid. But it is confusing to think of a car that has a gas tank and a tailpipe putting out emissions as an Electric...but this is all just starting out and the definitions and classifications will take a while to settle out...at which time we will have something new and more classifications and definitions will have to settle out...rinse and repeat.

Gavin

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 02:39 PM

Oh, a good idea....

How about we come up with the definition of an Electric Vehicle.

To me, not saying it is right, it is: a vehicle that does not have a gas or hydrogen tank and runs on electric power from a battery. It has no tail pipe and put out zero emissions from the vehicle itself.

Gavin

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 02:53 PM

I don't know the lingo in Albuqu-bla-bla-dljw$@%-superlongname :) but I don't consider lunatic to be a harsh, derogatory term lol. I know some guys that are lunatics but they are also wizards at their work.

DonC and I have already stated why the assertion that the Volt is not an EV is false. It isn't about how clean the car is, nor how heavy, nor what makes the electricity.

It is much simpler than that.

Is the car driven by electric motor(s)? If yes, then it is an EV. The Volt IS an EV.

Also, you keep talking about how you are required to use gas or make emissions in the Volt, when that is clearly not the case. It isn't like a Prius where you need the gas motor to go over 25 mph or whatever. The generator turns on after the batteries are depleted, not before. This is no different than any other BEV, except that you have the option to use the generator. It would be equivalent to towing a generator behind a Leaf. Or it would be equivalent to somebody who owns an EV that needs to take a longer trip and so they hop in their gas vehicle since their EV won't cut it.

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 03:28 PM

I think it is a gas electric car...or an electric gas car...or a gas electric hybrid...or an electric gas hybrid...

But calling it an Electric vehicle without the gas part is just strange...it is selling it short. And it, if nothing else, "feels" false. It has a gas tank. You stop at gas stations to fill it up with gas. Yes it can go 40 miles without ever using gas, but go 41 miles and you are...not saying that is bad, just a thing that happens.

So shout to the rooftops that the Volt is electric and gas...because that is what it is.

But we do need proper definitions....The Volt is not, to me, an electric only vehicle. That isn't a bad thing, just a thing.

Nor is the Volt ever an electric only vehicle...unless you never put gas in it. Then it is an electric only vehicle...once you hit a gas station and put gas in the gas tank, well then it is a hybrid.

Why wouldn't GM want everybody to know that? Hybrids are good for most people...heck they are good for more people than pure EVs (BEVs I guess) are....pure EVs have limitations...pluses too, but lots of limitations.

So the only people who GM might be trying to "fool" by calling the Volt an EV instead of a Hybrid EV or whatever would be people who want to never use gas again...and people like that (me) are a very small minority right now...

Gavin

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 04:37 PM

Of course GM isn't trying to fool anybody, and they describe the Volt as an RE-EV (Range-Extended EV) to advertise the fact that it is an electric vehicle you won't get stranded in or restricted by.

But the Volt is, by definition, an EV. There are many subtypes of EV. The subtype most commonly associated with this type of vehicle is PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle).

The Volt is also a BEV, by definition. In fact I will quote wikipedia on this:

A battery electric vehicle, or BEV, is a type of electric vehicle (EV) that uses chemical energy stored in rechargeable battery packs.
As with other electric vehicles, BEVs use electric motors and motor controllers instead of internal combustion engines (ICEs) for propulsion.
Sometimes, all-electric vehicles are refered as BEVs (although a plug-in hybrid is also a battery electric vehicle).

evmavin

05-26-2010, 06:04 PM

Of course GM isn't trying to fool anybody, and they describe the Volt as an RE-EV (Range-Extended EV) to advertise the fact that it is an electric vehicle you won't get stranded in or restricted by.

But the Volt is, by definition, an EV. There are many subtypes of EV. The subtype most commonly associated with this type of vehicle is PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle).

The Volt is also a BEV, by definition. In fact I will quote wikipedia on this:

No mention of a generator there. I think the definition should be WHERE the power is supplied.

EV- batteries only
Hybrid- anything where the power is from multiple forms

Calling something an electric vehicle just because the wheels are driven by motors is not a good description of where the energy originates. Anything that has multiple origins of power supply should be called a hybrid and in fact the fuel at the end of the chain should be the nomenclature but that is subjective.

GEHV
- gasoline electric hybrid vehicle

BEV

battery electric vehicle

Calling something an "electric vehicle" when it is a hybrid seems like lobbying for acronyms to make them have greater qualifications and seem greener. Electric is electric and hybrid is hybrid no mater how many or what types of fuels it uses. It's a bit of greenwashing and over classification IMO. Seems all other hybrids strive to be EVs in name:)

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 06:12 PM

I agree...I do think we need very set definitions...

One sees it as "of course GM isn't trying to fool anyone", another sees it as "of course GM is trying to fool someone".

Take away the confusion.

One sees: to advertise the fact that it is an electric vehicle you won't get stranded in or restricted by. Another sees: to advertise the fact that it is an electric vehicle you won't get stranded in or restricted by (a plus), but hides the fact that you still need a gas tank to do that (a minus to "some").

To me Electric Vehicle means I never have to buy gas for it.

Gas vehicle means I always have to buy gas for it.

Hybrid means...well quite a few different things.

If your car carries a gas tank around 24/7, you aren't electric only...you can be electric plus gas, but electric only? Nope.

Gavin

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 06:26 PM

ps...my daughter would tell me never to quote Wikipedia :)

Gavin

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 06:30 PM

No mention of a generator there. I think the definition should be WHERE the power is supplied.

EV- batteries only
Hybrid- anything where the power is from multiple forms

Calling something an electric vehicle just because the wheels are driven by motors is not a good description of where the energy originates. Anything that has multiple origins of power supply should be called a hybrid and in fact the fuel at the end of the chain should be the nomenclature but that is subjective.

GEHV
- gasoline electric hybrid vehicle

BEV

battery electric vehicle

Calling something an "electric vehicle" when it is a hybrid seems like lobbying for acronyms to make them have greater qualifications and seem greener. Electric is electric and hybrid is hybrid no mater how many or what types of fuels it uses. It's a bit of greenwashing and over classification IMO. Seems all other hybrids strive to be EVs in name:)
I encourage you to look up the definitions. EV does not mean battery only. A PHEV is also an EV (says so right in the name).

Again, if you want to talk about the possibility of how the power is generated, you have to do the same for any other EV. So if I recharge a Leaf from coal-power, would you now consider that to be a coal vehicle (CV)? If I charge it up from gasoline, is it now a gasoline vehicle?

GEHV? You are talking about lobbying for acronyms and here you are making them up on the spot. I'm using standard acronyms and going by their official definitions.

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 06:42 PM

I don't care where you get your power from (well I do...which is why I want an EV that uses only my solar panels), I care what power you carry in your car with you...I can't always control (away from home) where my power comes from, but i sure as heck can control what actually resided in my car (batteries under the seat, under the hood or gas in a tank...or both).

I choice not to have gas in a tank in any car I buy from now on...is that for everybody? Nope. But it is my choice. But if somebody chooses to carry gas in a tank in their car and uses it to provide power for that car, it is no longer an electric vehicle. It is an electric gas vehicle. A hybrid. It carries two fuels inside it...battery charge and gas.

Gavin

evmavin

05-26-2010, 06:45 PM

I encourage you to look up the definitions. EV does not mean battery only. A PHEV is also an EV (says so right in the name).

Again, if you want to talk about the possibility of how the power is generated, you have to do the same for any other EV. So if I recharge a Leaf from coal-power, would you now consider that to be a coal vehicle (CV)? If I charge it up from gasoline, is it now a gasoline vehicle?

GEHV? You are talking about lobbying for acronyms and here you are making them up on the spot. I'm using standard acronyms and going by their official definitions.

Clearly that would be silly since the method to supply the electricity varies but not on a hybrid. I am very aware of the emerging definitions, that does not make them accurate or appropriate which is my point. So everything that has electric motors is now some form of an EV by that logic, it's silly. A pure electric vehicle should be called and EV and all others should be called XXX ED, ED for electric drive, that is more accurate. By the way, freight trains are DRIVEN by electric motors and powered by generators so now they are EVs, I don't mean the hybrid models.

KISS

EV
HYBRID
Plug in Hybrid

That covers them all and wont make the publics head spin to understand.

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 06:50 PM

I agree...and I'm not ragging on the Volt....I really hope it does well. We need the Volt and similar cars to help transition to pure EVs...it will be a while before EVs are long distance travel cars.

The Volt isn't for me, but it will be for many people...good for GM....

But it will never be, to me, an EV. If you have a gas tank, you are not an EV. Does that make the Volt bad? Nope. In fact for many it is a good thing.

But we need better terms. The power that sits in your car defines your car. If you only have batteries you are an EV. If you only have gas you are a gas powered car. If you combine them you have a hybrid.

Simple.

But if you really think it is correct that saying the Volt is a EV or BEV, well you are short changing the Volt and you are confusing the masses. "Huh, I bought an Electric Vehicle...why do I put gas in it??"

Gavin

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 06:57 PM

Clearly that would be silly since the method to supply the electricity varies but not on a hybrid.
You are saying that on a Volt it isn't the same thing?
I can have a 100% coal-powered Leaf. Same with a Volt.
100% solar-powered Leaf, same for Volt
100% gas-powered Leaf, same thing

or any mixture.

Also, what you just said about EV is exactly the case, including the trains. If anything I think that changing all the current definitions would introduce an equal amount of confusion.

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 07:00 PM

100% solar-powered Leaf, same for Volt...as long as you never put gas in the Volt, yes you can...the question is "Why"...It takes away a main selling point of the Volt.

Once you add gas to the tank of a Volt, it is not longer 100% solar...and it is not longer an EV...it is an electric gas vehicle.

Gavin

I just think we need it simple...with simple rules...as for changing terms being confusing, heck all this is new stuff...nothing is set to be changed...but, again to me, nothing is more confusing than telling me I am buying an electric vehicle and then telling me to put gasoline into it. that just doesn't make sense at all. Gas is simple. Electric is simple. Hybrid, well yes that will have a few variations...but still hybrid alone is easy to understand.

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 07:13 PM

...as long as you never put gas in the Volt, yes you can...the question is "Why"...It takes away a main selling point of the Volt.

Once you add gas to the tank of a Volt, it is not longer 100% solar...and it is not longer an EV...it is an electric gas vehicle.

Gavin
What happens if I attach solar panels to the top of my Leaf, is it no longer an EV? It is now just a hybrid?

The Volt is a hybrid, but it is also an EV. If a vehicle is powered by electricity, then it is an EV, how the electricity is generated is not relevant. If you want to change the definition, by all means start a petition.

I also just thought of a funny scenario.

Let's say that some person bought a Volt and drove it for 100k miles purely on electricity generated by solar-power. Then you walk up to him and tell him very sternly that his Volt is not an electric vehicle. He would probably spit right in your face. :)

AndyH

05-26-2010, 07:21 PM

Of course GM isn't trying to fool anybody, and they describe the Volt as an RE-EV (Range-Extended EV) to advertise the fact that it is an electric vehicle you won't get stranded in or restricted by.

Stop for a minute or three and read your sentence again. One more time.

Are you laughing yet?

Anyone that tries to paint a hybrid as "electric vehicle you won't get stranded in" is either a new marketing intern or a politician.

Here are two questions for you: What's the fuel mileage for a Volt - how many miles will it travel on a gallon of liquid fuel? How much CO2 comes out of the tail pipe when the ICE is running?

IF you can answer either of those questions then the volt is a HYBRID vehicle.

"A PHEV is a hybrid electric vehicle with additional battery-storage capacity sized to satisfy the daily average driving requirements (33 miles per day), solely on electricity. The battery is charged with electricity from the electric grid during off-peak hours, most of which occur during the night. Driving beyond the daily driving range (i.e., long distances) requires that the PHEV’s gasoline engine be used." Source - Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (http://www.ferc.gov/about/com-mem/wellinghoff/5-24-07-technical-analy-wellinghoff.pdf)

"Hybrid vehicles add a parallel direct electric drive train with motor and batteries to the conventional internal combustion engine (ICE) drive train. This hybrid drive train permits significant reduction in idling losses and regeneration of braking losses that leads to greater efficiency and improved fuel economy." Source: MIT (http://web.mit.edu/chemistry/deutch/policy/2004-HybridCarsNow.pdf)

"PHEVs are powered by two sources: (1) petroleum in the fuel tank and the internal combustion engine; (2) electricity from regenerative braking and from the electric grid. In contrast, EVs are solely powered by electricity." Source: OEMtek (http://www.oemtek.com/resources.html)

"A plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) is defined as any hybrid electric vehicle which contains at least: (1) a battery storage system of 4 Kwh or more, used to power the motion of the vehicle; (2) a means of recharging that battery system from an external source of electricity; and (3) an
ability to drive at least ten miles in all-electric mode, and consume no gasoline. These are distinguished from hybrid cars mass-marketed today, which do not use any electricity from the grid. The official EPA mileage gives a good picture of how much gasoline they save..." Source: IEEE (http://www.ieeeusa.com/policy/POSITIONS/PHEV0607.pdf)

"The power train control strategy could favor electrical power over internal combustion engine power early in the drive cycle such that stored electricity is the preferred energy source while the battery is near full charge. However PHEV’s can offer efficiency and petroleum fuel displacementadvantages even without offering electric-only operating range." Source: Johnson Controls/SAFT (http://www.aqmd.gov/tao/conferencesworkshops/phev_forum-07-12-06/6-michaelandrew-jci.pdf)

You appear to be the only one trying to change the definition...well, you and GM. The rest of the world is quite happy with the definitions as they are.

Andy

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 07:36 PM

palmer_md

05-26-2010, 08:08 PM

Let's say that some person bought a Volt and drove it for 100k miles purely on electricity generated by solar-power. Then you walk up to him and tell him very sternly that his Volt is not an electric vehicle. He would probably spit right in your face. :)

Why would anybody purchase a volt a drive EV only? The entire purpose of the Volt is to have the gasoline backup. If you were going to drive 100k miles EV only you'd be far better off getting a car with much more range like the LEAF instead of getting a Volt and dragging around 10 gallons of gas and 500lbs of ICE all over town. Volt is a hybrid.

"spit in my face"...sound like someone with anger issues.

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 09:13 PM

Why would anybody purchase a volt a drive EV only? The entire purpose of the Volt is to have the gasoline backup. If you were going to drive 100k miles EV only you'd be far better off getting a car with much more range like the LEAF instead of getting a Volt and dragging around 10 gallons of gas and 500lbs of ICE all over town. Volt is a hybrid.

"spit in my face"...sound like someone with anger issues.
That's a theoretical situation to point out the silliness of ranting and raving about the Volt not being an EV.

Obviously the ICE would be pointless in such a case.

However, I personally wouldn't mind seeing a 60-mile EV, and I chose that option on the Th!nk survey. Seems like 100 miles is the standard. I know that's probably better for most people to be safe. But I am very aware of how far I can drive. Probably 90% of the time I will be driving less than 40 miles in a day, so I am going to be lugging around an extra 60 miles of dead weight.

If you think about it, there are some merits to a serial hybrid approach. If the ICE were very light, it could very well be more efficient than carrying around extra battery. I believe Neil posted an article about a Fiat 500 with a small genset that weighed very little. Fiat has also developed a 2-cylinder engine that is significantly lighter than a 4-cylinder.
This was the post:http://www.apteraforum.com/showpost.php?p=52268&postcount=14

evmavin

05-26-2010, 10:05 PM

If you think about it, there are some merits to a serial hybrid approach. If the ICE were very light, it could very well be more efficient than carrying around extra battery. I believe Neil posted an article about a Fiat 500 with a small genset that weighed very little. Fiat has also developed a 2-cylinder engine that is significantly lighter than a 4-cylinder.

That makes no sense. Please explain how a motor is going to be more efficient. The volt is not and EV, GM call call it whatever they want until everyone calls it what they prefer but that changes nothing.

evnow

05-26-2010, 10:28 PM

The volt is not and EV, GM call call it whatever they want until everyone calls it what they prefer but that changes nothing.

You mean Volt is not a pure EV - usually called BEV.

Volt is a serial PHEV. Prius plug-in would be a parallel PHEV. Prius is a HEV.

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 10:29 PM

That makes no sense. Please explain how a motor is going to be more efficient. The volt is not and EV, GM call call it whatever they want until everyone calls it what they prefer but that changes nothing.
I don't know what your point is. It may be your opinion that the Volt isn't an EV, but it is an EV by definition (PHEV, most specifically). So I don't know why you are saying it isn't an EV as if that is a fact or something.

What I was saying about the motor is that if it was very light, lighter than the additional battery to attain a certain range, it could be more efficient depending on the driving cycles. I don't actually know how much that 295 cc genset weighs and how much 14 kwh of battery weighs.

aptera1213

05-26-2010, 11:08 PM

Again, I hope the volt succeeds, that it sells lots of cars.

But I think it is very confusing to call it an electric vehicle...a hybrid? Heck yes. A gas electric hybrid? Heck yeah.

A better, and real, example other than somebody driving a Volt 100,000 miles on electric only is this:

I live in Albuquerque. Santa fe is 60 miles away. I visit family up there a few times a year.

Now I buy an "electric car" like the LEAF or Fiat 500ev and I want to go visit. I say to the salesman, hey I want to drive my car 60 miles to visit family in Santa Fe and the drive home later that evening. He goes, sure, no problem, just make sure you charge it enough while visiting to make it home...so now I know I have to add some electric charge to my electric car.

Now I buy an "electric car" like the volt and I want to drive to Santa Fe and back later that day. So I tell the salesman, and he goes, sure, no problem, just make sure you put some gas in your electric car before heading out...WTF, gas in my electric car?

Hybrids use two internal energy sources. Gas cars use one...gas. Electric cars use one, electricity. If your car uses two, it can't be a gas car or an electric car...it is a hybrid car. Not sure why that is considered a bad thing? GM should be proud of that and pushing it.

Gavin

AndyH

05-26-2010, 11:17 PM

Andy, I already know from multiple posts that you are very much against GM. I'm not even trying to defend GM or anything they've done, because I honestly do not care.

So you may continue to try and troll in any way you see fit.

I am not against GM. I am against twisting facts to fit someone's idea of marketing. I arrive there by being a sales/marketing professional that studies tactics and techniques used to manipulate. Please do not try to brush aside my request for a fact-based examination by suggesting I would allow one to distort the truth if only I liked GM.

I find it somewhat comical that you would call me a troll while you're again caught in the middle of pulling a Leaf battery thread back into your Volt-fanboy-zone. ;)

Do you have any comment on the definitions of 'hybrid' as outlined by DOE labs, PHEV battery producers, and other members of industry?

Andy

SlowSRT4

05-26-2010, 11:39 PM

I am not against GM. I am against twisting facts to fit someone's idea of marketing. I arrive there by being a sales/marketing professional that studies tactics and techniques used to manipulate. Please do not try to brush aside my request for a fact-based examination by suggesting I would allow one to distort the truth if only I liked GM.

I find it somewhat comical that you would call me a troll while you're again caught in the middle of pulling a Leaf battery thread back into your Volt-fanboy-zone. ;)

Do you have any comment on the definitions of 'hybrid' as outlined by DOE labs, PHEV battery producers, and other members of industry?

Andy
Everybody took the thread in that direction and the topic being discussed does have merit.

Your posts however, aren't worth responding to. :sign0014:

aptera1213

05-27-2010, 12:04 AM

I think somebody is confused as to what spam is :)

I will always call the volt a hybrid...still not sure why that is a bad thing...play to your strength...

And they can spit in my face, but I will always laugh when somebody calls their volt an electric car as they pull into the gas station.

The volt will be a very nice hybrid...I hope it does well.

But, again it's simple, if you ask the average person on the street if a car that uses gas in a gas tank to charge a battery to move an electric motor, well is that a gas car, an electric car or a hybrid car, well the answer will be.....

Gavin

AndyH

05-27-2010, 12:24 AM

I normally don't believe in coincidence, but it's kinda funny that I checked-in here after spending a bit over 4 hours slogging thru Texas alternative fuel vehicle bills and reading the state's view of what's electric and what's hybrid. :D

If it matters to the smart folks that are already on record, the state of Texas is on your side:

""Hybrid vehicle" means a vehicle with at least two different energy converters and two different energy storage systems on board the vehicle for the purpose of propelling the vehicle" Texas Senate Bill 1425 (http://www.legis.state.tx.us/search/DocViewer.aspx?K2DocKey=odbc://TLO/TLO.dbo.vwCurrBillDocs/81/R/S/B/01425/4/B@TloCurrBillDocs&QueryText=&HighlightType=1)

Thankfully, Texas recognizes the Leaf as a BEV, and San Antonio is planning on a Level 2 charger in all public parking garages in the city. Once the Level 3 solution is approved in the US, they'll be installing a number of these as well. The green cities office thinks that the Level 2 EVSE will only be around 10 years or so as they figure they won't need them once the Level 3 infrastructure is in place.

One just has to start believing that EVs are here to stay if a state like Texas is on-board!

DonC

05-27-2010, 10:45 AM

If it matters to the smart folks that are already on record, the state of Texas is on your side:
These definitions are usually the result of successful lobbying more than anything else. The federal statues define a Volt as an electric vehicle but that doesn't mean much other than GM had a lot of clout with Dingell's office. (Not that I'd disagree with the conclusion). And we can remember the definition which prevented three wheel vehicles from getting government money.

DonC

05-27-2010, 11:00 AM

On the cost of the battery, GM has now said that the 16 kWh battery pack for the Volt costs about $10,000. Just applying this cost to the larger 24 kWh Leaf pack would mean the Leaf pack costs $15,000. Less than the $18,000 estimate but more than the $9,000 estimate.

Just a quick calculation. At current gas prices the battery pack will always cost more than the gas you'd buy for running an ICE vehicle. You'd use 400 gallons of gas going 10,000 miles a year in a car which got 25 MPG. At $3/gallon that's $1200 a year. Assuming you spent $200/year on electricity you're well in the hole at the end of ten year, without considering the cost of money.

So batteries are not cost effective at the moment. What a revelation! :scared0016:

Hopefully they can get the costs down to the $400 target. That would make the numbers work assuming people are willing to tolerate long payback periods, which they're not.

Lots of issues on costs.

KarenRei

05-27-2010, 12:28 PM

Not all batteries are created equal. A PHEV needs a higher power, longer life chemistry, which generally costs more.

chijayhawker

05-27-2010, 12:47 PM

Here is my math:
$45-$50 a week on gasoline in Chicagoland area depending on price per gallon, so for a year - $45 * 52 = $2340. For ten years provided the gas price stays around what it is now, which I doubt will happen, * 10 = $23,400.

Average electricity bill for last 3 months for me $67, which may be on the low side. If charging the Leaf, which I have a reservation for, increases my monthly bill by 50% that would be $100.50 then annualized $1206. I also assume the cost for electricity won't stay the same, but for 10 years that's $12,060.

The difference between petrol and electricity = $11,340. Sounds close to the cost of a new battery in 10 years, if it is a $10,000 battery. If it is an $18,000 battery then I agree with DonC that an EV may not be a good purchase, but I am not taking into consideration such things as environmental impact and feeling good about not adding to pollution of the earth, which is rather intangible. From my POV.

Grendal

05-27-2010, 01:18 PM

aptera1213

05-27-2010, 01:18 PM

also no oil changes and less engine work needed over 10 years...minus the cost of renting a car the times you do have to go long distance...i'm not really getting an electric car to save money (though that would be nice), but mostly to show the industry that there is an interest in never buying gas again.

as for battery price... that GM battery is made by an outside source and GM is asking for only a few the first years (? 10k Volts the first year?)

Nissan is majority owner of the battery company and will be ordering / making many many more than GM is buying...so the cost will be less per kwh for the Nissan battery...9,000 might not be so low...if GM can get an outsourced 16kwh battery in lowish numbers for 10,000 bucks, then Nissan could likely get their internally sourced 24 kwh battery in largeish numbers for around 10k or so.

Gavin

NeilBlanchard

05-27-2010, 03:29 PM

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/27/details-on-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-including-how-recharging-sp/

Nissan has said it expects to Leaf drivers to have around 70 to 80 percent capacity left in the pack after ten years. What will get drivers to the upper or lower end of that range? The amount of fast charging one does. With regular Level 2 charging, drivers should expect 80 percent live left in the battery. With a lot of Level 3 charging – two or three times a day – the pack will only be at the 70 percent level.

Battery life: After 10 years, the battery is expected to have 70-80 percent of its original storage capacity

This sounds exactly like what Mark Perry told me at the Boston event. I am expecting them to have a 10 year warranty.

aptera1213

05-27-2010, 04:10 PM

10 year warranty = buy vs lease

at least for me...

Now the question is who do I give the leaf to once the Fiat 500EV comes out?

At least that lets me get the 2013 Fiat 500ev, let the first year models work out the kinks on somebody else's time

Gavin

SlowSRT4

05-27-2010, 04:24 PM

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/27/details-on-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-including-how-recharging-sp/

This sounds exactly like what Mark Perry told me at the Boston event. I am expecting them to have a 10 year warranty.
Same information we already knew. :indifferent0008:

aptera1213

05-27-2010, 04:36 PM

The nice thing is that the other companies are going to have to support the 10 year warranty too...So if Nissan's is 10 years, then Ford's will be 10 years, Fiat's will be 10 years, Th!nks will be 10 years...etc etc...

So that should deflect some worries about having to spend big cash to replace the battery in 5 years.

Gavin

aptera1213

05-27-2010, 04:40 PM

And while the Nissan Leaf battery is quite fetching...

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2010/05/leaf-grndbrk-03.jpg

the Th!nk City battery is just a beauty...very Apple...simple, elegant...

http://img0.bloggum.com/upload/lib/img/17168/500/r_8ksiir4xr5ecygk0x47l.jpg

Gavin

gah, this stuff is like battery nerd porn...i keep coming back to stare at it...

i was the same way when they came and discussed putting solar panels on my roof...i'm asking a bazillion questions and looking at the inverter and panels and even the dang simple roof attachment brackets...it was all so pretty...needless to say i was an easy sell :)

DonC

05-27-2010, 08:21 PM

Not all batteries are created equal. A PHEV needs a higher power, longer life chemistry, which generally costs more.
This is the conventional wisdom but is this really true? We're not talking about a one or two kWh pack here. The Volt has a 16 kWh pack and its DOD is 50%. The Leaf has a 24 kWh and its DOD should be significantly greater than 50%. So which pack will last the longer? For people driving less than 40 miles the stress on the packs will be about the same. For driving more than 40 but less than 60 miles the stress on the packs will be about the same. And driving more than 60 miles will put more stress on the Leaf pack.

Then think about this hypothetical. The Volt now has a 24 kWh pack and it has a DOD of 75%. The Leaf has the same size pack and the same DOD. Are we really to believe that slapping a PHEV label on the Volt pack subjects it to more stress or more discharge cycles?

Now take into consideration that the Volt pack is liquid cooled while the Leaf pack is air cooled.

How the pack will be used and how its conditioned matters more than a label.

DonC

05-27-2010, 08:30 PM

So that should deflect some worries about having to spend big cash to replace the battery in 5 years.
I doubt the Leaf Gen I pack will come with a ten year warranty. It might but until they announce the warranty color me skeptical. My guess is five to seven years.

In any event I'm not sure that a warranty that says you'll lose 30% of your range is meaningful. Now if Nissan said the pack would deliver 100 miles of range at EOL that would be different. But that's not going to happen.

The lease seems like a far better deal than the buy. You get the $7500 rebate up front, you don't have to pay sales tax on the full MSRP, you aren't on the hook if the battery underperforms, and you're free to buy the next generation car with the better battery at the end of three years.

You can also choose to buy the car at the end of the lease if you like so you're not really out anything.

NeilBlanchard

05-27-2010, 09:13 PM

Don't you think Nissan would have used liquid cooling if their pack needed it?

SlowSRT4

05-27-2010, 09:49 PM

Don't you think Nissan would have used liquid cooling if their pack needed it?
Nobody said anything about liquid cooling being a requirement. But it makes sense that the battery with liquid cooling would be subjected to less stress, which is what DonC was implying.

KarenRei

05-27-2010, 11:08 PM

This is the conventional wisdom but is this really true? We're not talking about a one or two kWh pack here. The Volt has a 16 kWh pack and its DOD is 50%. The Leaf has a 24 kWh and its DOD should be significantly greater than 50%. So which pack will last the longer? For people driving less than 40 miles the stress on the packs will be about the same. For driving more than 40 but less than 60 miles the stress on the packs will be about the same. And driving more than 60 miles will put more stress on the Leaf pack.

Then think about this hypothetical. The Volt now has a 24 kWh pack and it has a DOD of 75%. The Leaf has the same size pack and the same DOD. Are we really to believe that slapping a PHEV label on the Volt pack subjects it to more stress or more discharge cycles?

Now take into consideration that the Volt pack is liquid cooled while the Leaf pack is air cooled.

How the pack will be used and how its conditioned matters more than a label.

Well, certainly the Volt's cells run at a 50% higher discharge rate per unit capacity. The lower DoD will help -- but how much? That depends on the typical Leaf user's normal discharge profile and how the chemistry responds to that. For example, if your average Leafer generally uses only 40% of their pack in their daily drive, how much of an advantage is that, really?

evnow

05-27-2010, 11:22 PM

The lease seems like a far better deal than the buy. You get the $7500 rebate up front, you don't have to pay sales tax on the full MSRP, you aren't on the hook if the battery underperforms, and you're free to buy the next generation car with the better battery at the end of three years.

You can also choose to buy the car at the end of the lease if you like so you're not really out anything.

I've been saying that for sometime.

But the numbers I'm running show lease may not be that good. We will pay $17K for the SL in 3 years - instead of $27K to buy. This is for WA (where if I buy I don't pay sales tax, but if I lease I will - since sales tax exemption expires this year).

NeilBlanchard

05-28-2010, 05:57 AM

If a battery *needs* liquid cooling, then I would say that it will be more stressed under similar use conditions; as will a battery that does not *need* liquid cooling.

Here's another data point: the FVT eVaro has a 100-120 miles range on its 14kWh EiG battery pack.

SlowSRT4

05-28-2010, 10:55 AM

If a battery *needs* liquid cooling, then I would say that it will be more stressed under similar use conditions; as will a battery that does not *need* liquid cooling.
That doesn't make any sense...

NeilBlanchard

05-28-2010, 01:00 PM

If the battery gets hot enough to require liquid cooling, then it is a lot more likely to get too hot. If the battery doesn't get very hot, and it doesn't need liquid cooling (or even any kind of active cooling) then it is very unlikely to get too hot.

Anything that depends on active systems to maintain the right conditions is more likely to fail, or to have issues. If the active system gets stressed, or if it is not controlling exactly the right parts (all the hot spots!), then the battery pack will suffer.

Think of two houses: one has zero insulation and has no natural thermal storage -- it needs active systems to heat and cool it. The second house is superinsulated and has lots of thermal mass integrated into the construction -- it will maintain a very consistent temperature at all times, and is extremely unlikely to get too hot or too cold.

Or, think of an ICE powered vehicle vs an EV -- just because the ICE has liquid cooling doesn't mean that it is superior, or that it will have less thermal stress than the EV.

SlowSRT4

05-28-2010, 01:41 PM

In that example I would rather have the house with the active systems. It would always be a comfortable 68 F in there. The other house would be very cold in the winter (where I live anyway), and stifling hot in the summer. Not to mention the significantly lower amount of air exchange. I'd rather breathe fresh air over stale air, but that's just my preference.

DonC

05-28-2010, 02:46 PM

But the numbers I'm running show lease may not be that good. We will pay $17K for the SL in 3 years - instead of $27K to buy. This is for WA (where if I buy I don't pay sales tax, but if I lease I will - since sales tax exemption expires this year).
With a lease you're simply paying for the depreciation during the lease period, which is just the difference between the purchase price and the buyout price at the end of the lease. If it turns out the lessor has misjudged and the car is worth more at the end of the lease period than thought, you can just buy the car and either keep it or resell it. If they lessor has misjudged and the market price is below the buyout price you can just turn it in.

The risk for new technology is obviously higher than for proven technology.

If you do decide to buy hopefully you can do it before January 1 given what you say about the sales tax. But I'm not sure how many cars are going to be delivered in December.

DonC

05-28-2010, 02:55 PM

If the battery gets hot enough to require liquid cooling, then it is a lot more likely to get too hot.

Anything that depends on active systems to maintain the right conditions is more likely to fail, or to have issues. If the active system gets stressed, or if it is not controlling exactly the right parts (all the hot spots!), then the battery pack will suffer.

Think of two houses: one has zero insulation and has no natural thermal storage -- it needs active systems to heat and cool it. The second house is superinsulated and has lots of thermal mass integrated into the construction -- it will maintain a very consistent temperature at all times, and is extremely unlikely to get too hot or too cold.

Or, think of an ICE powered vehicle vs an EV -- just because the ICE has liquid cooling doesn't mean that it is superior, or that it will have less thermal stress than the EV.
But here is the deal. There isn't any reason to believe the chemistries of these two batteries are all that different. So it's not that one needs liquid cooling and one doesn't. In your example, it's more like you have two houses which are both well insulated, and one has an efficient HVAC system and one doesn't.

It's really that one battery pack is designed to have a longer life than the other. If GM was only warranting a 28 mile EOL range the Volt pack probably wouldn't need the prima donna treatment its receiving. Personally I'm in favor of a longer lasting pack but views on this can differ.

NeilBlanchard

05-28-2010, 03:23 PM

DonC

05-28-2010, 06:08 PM

A highly insulated house would stay warm with just the people and lighting and appliances' heat. I live in New England, and I know this is possible.

Ditto in reverse during the summer -- insulation keeps the heat out, as well.
Well in my mind it's more like one house has an efficient heater and one house just requires you to tolerate being cold. That's probably the more apt analogy.

Both the Leaf and the Volt pack will be well insulated, and I doubt either one will be deficient in this regard. But the fact is that batteries will last longer if they're not subjected to either high or low temperatures. If you park an EV in a parking lot and the pavement is 110 the battery pack is going to be far better off if it's plugged in and conditioned. Ditto for very low temperatures (though heat will effect longevity more).

DonC

05-28-2010, 06:13 PM

Well, certainly the Volt's cells run at a 50% higher discharge rate per unit capacity. The lower DoD will help -- but how much? That depends on the typical Leaf user's normal discharge profile and how the chemistry responds to that. For example, if your average Leafer generally uses only 40% of their pack in their daily drive, how much of an advantage is that, really?
Yeah, true enough. On the other hand, the 50% discharge rate advantage also depends on the drive cycle. Not much of an advantage for a .1C rate over a .15C rate, but the difference between 1C and 1.5C might be significant. In this regard the Volt's transmission should make for much greater efficiency at higher speeds, which would translate into a lower C rate. We'll have to see how that works out.

futura

05-28-2010, 10:10 PM

gah, this stuff is like battery nerd porn...i keep coming back to stare at it...

i was the same way when they came and discussed putting solar panels on my roof...i'm asking a bazillion questions and looking at the inverter and panels and even the dang simple roof attachment brackets...it was all so pretty...needless to say i was an easy sell Yeah. It gets worse with solar panels once that meter starts counting backwards. I'll stand there with a Margarita and stare like it's the TV. The dog has learned to enjoy this ritual and joins me. My wife... too much sense for that.

NeilBlanchard

05-28-2010, 10:49 PM

The super insulated house stays warm with almost no heat input. It is virtually guaranteed to be stable and comfortable all the time, because it just is that way naturally.

In the house with zero insulation, the active heater/cooler has to be very well designed, and there is almost guaranteed to spot that are way too hot/cold. And the active system has to be run much of the time, and if some small thing goes wrong, or is different than it was designed for, it will have problems.

Getting back to the batteries, a more extreme comparison would be the Tesla vs the Leaf -- the Tesla needs to be plugged in all the time, or it will drain itself in a few days keeping itself cool. The Leaf will stay full charge for up to 3 days without being plugged in -- it is far more stable just sitting there. I don't know where the Volt fits in the spectrum, but if it requires active cooling just sitting there, then it is obviously very different than the Leaf, as well.

aptera1213

05-29-2010, 01:23 AM

Yeah. It gets worse with solar panels once that meter starts counting backwards. I'll stand there with a Margarita and stare like it's the TV. The dog has learned to enjoy this ritual and joins me. My wife... too much sense for that.

Ha, I had both companies I talked to guarantee me that they wouldn't flip the switch till I got home some I could be there to watch the meter go from forward to backward...god i need help in soooo many ways

Gavin

DonC

05-31-2010, 04:08 PM

Ha, I had both companies I talked to guarantee me that they wouldn't flip the switch till I got home some I could be there to watch the meter go from forward to backward...god i need help in soooo many ways
Usually the installers are long gone before the utility signs off so it's up to you flip the switch when you're authorized to connect. Now a test flip is something different.

Telchar

06-01-2010, 09:06 PM

Gavin, you changed your avatar. You're going to kill Fiat.

SlowSRT4

06-01-2010, 09:13 PM

Gavin, you changed your avatar. You're going to kill Fiat.
hahaha rofl :D

SlowSRT4

06-03-2010, 10:37 AM

The Leaf could possibly weigh up to 3500 lbs:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/02/report-leaf-curb-weight-around-3-500-pounds-about-the-same-as/

aptera1213

06-03-2010, 01:30 PM

Yeah...it might...but dang has ABG been bugging me lately...

Half their articles are sketchy at best...and this one is all just idle guessing (which is cool...i love me some idle guessing), but don't label it "REPORT"...label, "we have nothing much going on right now and thought we would guess about the LEAF's weight." At least be honest with what it is.

Gavin

I mean really...this is the Header:

Report: Nissan Leaf curb weight around 3,500 pounds, about the same as Volt

Does that sound like 1) A fact based article that is likely from a source from Nissan or 2) wild ass guess work by a bunch of internet dudes?

Cuz to me it sure sounds like 1, but it is actually number 2...kinda like the reporting lately at ABG (who i loved...just seems they have not been up to snuff lately).

butter

06-03-2010, 02:31 PM

KarenRei

06-03-2010, 02:35 PM

My thoughts exactly when I read that.

SlowSRT4

06-03-2010, 06:50 PM

My thoughts exactly when I read that.
The dog or the car? :wavey:

KarenRei

06-03-2010, 06:53 PM

The car... but the dog is cute, too ;)

aptera1213

06-10-2010, 01:14 PM

Hot weather testing going on in Phoenix...they even picked the Black version to test...smart as it will get the hottest...

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1307/4687759233_75a1074944_b.jpg

Gavin

SEGsby

06-11-2010, 01:45 PM

Wonder what they stuck on the top of the charge port cover?

NeilBlanchard

06-11-2010, 04:31 PM

There is also a small shiny metal cylinder on the roof over the rear passenger side roof, and yellow tape on the door handles...

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2010/06/leaf-spy-2.jpg

evmavin

06-11-2010, 06:36 PM

Estes Rocket

rayfellow

06-11-2010, 10:19 PM

Estes Rocket

LOL.. but will it fly?

DonC

06-12-2010, 12:14 AM

So something less than a 50 mile range with the HVAC running in traffic. Assuming the pack is new. After a few years things could get ugly on a cold day going 75 MPH.

This should still work for a lot of people but range anxiety is going to be more than a state of mind.

Nothing to do with the pack but the back up sound is truly horrible. Reminds me of a dump truck.

SlowSRT4

06-12-2010, 12:24 AM

What back up sound?

DonC

06-12-2010, 11:08 AM

What back up sound?
This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZK74nUJl48

DonC

06-12-2010, 11:14 AM

More on the real world range:

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/2010/06/11/warning-your-mileage-may-vary/

SlowSRT4

06-12-2010, 11:26 AM

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZK74nUJl48
Well, that is really annoying. So that engages automatically when you put the car in reverse?

I don't want to be making a bunch of noise when I am backing into a parking spot, or waiting to back out of my driveway. That wouldn't fly.

I'd be at the dealer taking delivery of my car. As soon as the keys were handed to me, I would pop the hood and start rummaging around. Pulling fuses left and right hoping one of them would disable the dang thing. The look on the salesman's face would be priceless. :D

Grendal

07-27-2010, 06:10 PM

The speculation is over:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/nissan-announces-leaf-rollout-plans-8-year-battery-warranty/

8 year, 100,000 mile warranty. Same as the Volt.

evmavin

07-27-2010, 06:18 PM

The speculation is over:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/27/nissan-announces-leaf-rollout-plans-8-year-battery-warranty/

8 year, 100,000 mile warranty. Same as the Volt.

It's only the same by title, the warranties are ONLY the same if the fine print and detail match. One could be pro-rated and the other without conditions, Nissan has not released any details, yet. The announcement is only PR at this point since we don't know the conditions.

AndyH

12-21-2010, 02:23 PM

No worries on the fish- if there is a fan inside or attached to the battery pack enclosure I win. Also, you would never hear a small fan and the consumption on even two efficient ones would be so insignificant it would be not worth mentioning. The fan only needs to circulate air not blast the inside of the pack. I need to lose a bet so I'm rolling the dice.

The various Leaf manuals are available now, including the full service manual by subscription. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2066

Here's the guts of the Leaf battery pack per the service manual:

http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/LEAF/leaf_pack_exploded.jpg
http://www.absoluteefficiency.com/LEAF/leaf_pack_exploded_key.jpg

The manuals also include schematics, wiring diagrams, and error codes. There are no fans, wires for fans, or error codes for bad fans.

The pack maintenance procedure includes full battery box sealing and an air pressure leak test to ensure there are no leaks prior to re-hanging the pack under the car. So there's no heating or cooling air directed to the pack from another source.

No worries about the pizza - donate a pie or cash to the organization of your choice.

Merry Christmas!
Andy

Mesuge

01-10-2011, 06:03 AM

So there's no heating or cooling air directed to the pack from another source.

Andy, thanks for the upload. Btw. I guess "having my I told you so moment", anyway this generation of Renault-Nissan is going to be a lemon just to position the company and sort potential problems later on, perhaps under warranty. What a concept or shall we say a trap.. He who is waiting for other more mature brands or left grandma at pawnshop to get his Tesla today wins. Btw. Prius has got some online TV, PR event today, revealing details about the new family..

NeilBlanchard

01-10-2011, 08:25 AM

There are battery cells that do not need active cooling. The EiG cells that FVT is using can go safely to 10C. The latest A123 cells are also very stable. The DBM Energy Hummingbird cells are certainly very thermally stable, as well.

Mesuge

01-10-2011, 09:16 AM

eventhusiast

01-10-2011, 09:47 AM

so what you are saying Mesuge is that a major auto manufacture and their team of engineers went to all this trouble and design time to build a battery pack that is doomed because they did not put in a simple cooling system which you say they need but they say they dont?

Mesuge

01-10-2011, 03:04 PM

eventhusiast

01-11-2011, 09:01 AM

Pretty respectable of you to say a company is doomed when you dont have any data of their battery packs to back your up statement. You sound like a BMS lover or wanna be who thinks he knows everything about ev battery systems...we will have to wait and see how Nissan ev's do in the real world ... or do you have actual test data of their battery packs that we can see now?

lapwing

01-11-2011, 10:08 AM

Hm, thermally stable in average user temp envelope -20 <> 40C, and in high %DoD cycling, sorry your are dreaming.. It's all about the fine print, and this generation of Renault EV has been advertised as designed for ~5yrs lifetime, afterwards (or even before) severe capacity degrading takes place. The fact they placated the product launch over with factory subsidized warranty (matching competition) to possibly take over the market in leading position is another issue..

Based on the electrolyte solvents listed in the MSDS of batteries online I estimate that the safe temperature for most "safe lithium" is currently around 60-70 Celsius. Much higher than that and they run into trouble with electrolyte loss.

Mesuge

01-12-2011, 05:44 AM

Pls. read comments you are going to muse about not twice or at least three times in a row. I didn't say Renault-Nissan is doomed, I just despise this corpo strategy engaged in fact obfuscation and overblown hype, similarly I voiced critical opinion the way GM finally revealed in last second, that Volt is just a hybrid. So far Leaf is the only major product with no active batt. thermal management involved (beyond some bms level work), so ask them not me.

Yes the MSDS seems to be tweaked for such "passive" application on purpose, that however doesn't change the fact, Renault-Nissan was talking about ~5yrs design life for their first gen batt. technology, later subsidized (prolonged) warranty aside. The derating issue on this batt pack will be likely severe in specific climate areas.

He who will treat this EV with substantially derated performance envelope from the day one in mind (i.e. not pushing it to official limit), would prolly enjoy it the most, so good luck. I just don't see such rushed package as interesting as it has been portraid by some groupies.

NeilBlanchard

01-12-2011, 09:41 AM

I'm fairly certain that some battery cells are incredibly stable in this regard. Nissan has specifically stated that even frequent Level 3 charging will only have a nominal effect on the pack life.

As I said earlier, the are several cells that are capable of long discharge rates -- the EiG cells that FVT uses in their eVaro are capable of 10C. They can be loaded at their rated current for 10 hours. (http://www.engineersedge.com/battery/capacity_battery_ratings.htm)

PatQ562

01-13-2011, 03:08 AM

Actually "10C" means the battery can be safely charged or discharged at currents of 10X its Ah rating, ie in 1/10 of an hour. For example, a 10A battery at a 1C rate is delivering 10A, thus good for 1 hour. If such a battery will do 3C, you can draw 30A, and discharge it in 20 minutes, without losing much capacity or overheating the battery. A 10C battery would deliver 100A but of course for only 1/10 of an hour (6 min). But this means it can be recharged in this period so a "10C" rating is indeed very impressive, and indicates very low internal losses, hence little need for cooling especially at more realistic current flows. An EV with a 2 hour running range (120 miles at 60mph) will be discharging at only 0.5C average, but if for example it is a 20kWh pack and you want peak powers of 100kW, this is a 5C rate. Hybrid car batteries with approx 5 minutes of run time at full power are therefore routinely operating at >10C, but they keep them well within the charge/discharge limits to minimize wear.

Lead-acid batteries flag severely when used at rates above 2C if not less - I could never get more than about 60% of the rated Ah with a 1-hour discharge. The nominal rating is taken with a 20 hr discharge, or 0.05C. Thankfully this is not the case with well made cells of the newer technologies.

Pat Q

Mesuge

01-13-2011, 03:50 AM

Pat> good overview, plus there are more stuff to be watched, low/high temp charging at different %DoD levels, "storage/idle" %DoD levels etc.

AndyH

01-15-2011, 08:39 PM

Pls. use search function, there has been a lenghty and detailed debate on this issue last year and before that. They simply rushed the project to get on the market in volume w. shoddy technology (cutting corners), counting on the fact that they could swap the old pack for new technology, say during those 5yrs or earlier under warranty.. Renault-Nissan was hyping their EV programme to the last minute obfuscating these very issues surrounding the batt. pack technology.

On principle, I hate such corpo behaviour, on the other hand the approach of Ford, Toyota, GM (in terms of battery while they bamboozled people over drivetrain specifics) and other manufs. is much more inline with respectable standards..

You're correct that it's been talked to death - but that doesn't make it right.

Nissan's using very tough cells with very low internal resistance. The simple fact is that there's no 'active' cooling in the battery box because the battery DOESN'T NEED IT. Period. And word count isn't going to change that. :D

aptera1213

01-16-2011, 11:27 PM

Leaf battery warranty is 8 years.

Gavin

evnow

01-17-2011, 11:48 AM

I just don't see such rushed package as interesting as it has been portraid by some groupies.
Do you have anything back your speculation that it is "rushed" ?

NeilBlanchard

01-17-2011, 01:05 PM

Hi Pat,

Actually "10C" means the battery can be safely charged or discharged at currents of 10X its Ah rating, ie in 1/10 of an hour. For example, a 10A battery at a 1C rate is delivering 10A, thus good for 1 hour. If such a battery will do 3C, you can draw 30A, and discharge it in 20 minutes, without losing much capacity or overheating the battery. A 10C battery would deliver 100A but of course for only 1/10 of an hour (6 min). But this means it can be recharged in this period so a "10C" rating is indeed very impressive, and indicates very low internal losses, hence little need for cooling especially at more realistic current flows. An EV with a 2 hour running range (120 miles at 60mph) will be discharging at only 0.5C average, but if for example it is a 20kWh pack and you want peak powers of 100kW, this is a 5C rate. Hybrid car batteries with approx 5 minutes of run time at full power are therefore routinely operating at >10C, but they keep them well within the charge/discharge limits to minimize wear.

Lead-acid batteries flag severely when used at rates above 2C if not less - I could never get more than about 60% of the rated Ah with a 1-hour discharge. The nominal rating is taken with a 20 hr discharge, or 0.05C. Thankfully this is not the case with well made cells of the newer technologies.

Pat Q

Thank you for the clarification -- I am glad to learn more about batteries. The EiG cells that FVT uses are capable of 10C discharge, and I don't think they have active cooling in the battery pack.

eventhusiast

01-19-2011, 03:25 PM

PLS...Mesuge did say the Leaf was going to be a lemon, i take that as doomed. His speculation is just that, he has nothing to back up his opinion on the Leaf battery pack at all, nothing. There are battery packs quite capable of doing the job without aux cooling systems.

Mesuge

03-02-2011, 09:19 AM

For those lazy readers and/or late comers, and groupies, once again, the so called "my speculation" was based largely on available data, incl. initial warranty/recycling campaign by Renault-Nissan, which specifically talked about 5yrs batt. pack overhaul, later and long after registering prospective customers they increased it without tech. upgrades to match the competition at least on the PR front (GM,Toyota,..); meaning they will eat the extra warranty costs for the rushed in gen1. Another issue was the severe derating factor, which was in detail described by former high ranking Tesla employee, such metodology has got universal appeal and validity cross-technology wise. It applies in the same fashion to Tesla, Renault, Ford or Toyota, you adjust the parameters for given batt. chemistry, vehicle platform, and other important onboard systems or lack thereof.

You can believe in what you want, I just don't like companies (and hopium drinking groupies) pulling my leg, some companies "perform" in this area worse than others, relatively speaking one can only salute the underpromise-overdeliver stance of Ford and Toyota to name a few. Hopefully next gen Leaf and/or weather/cold climate addon package?(joke in itself in 2010s carindustry) might establish it as mature product, which it is clearly not at the moment.

A sarcastic person might add that you just dearly miss the personal experience with the Renault group (owner of brands Nissan, Dacia, ..) in contrast to the euros, who just offer you some insights here.

palmer_md

03-02-2011, 10:05 AM

What? Maybe its a language issue, but there were a bunch of words there, but I'm really not sure what you are trying to say.

I'm pretty sure you are saying that the Nissan Leaf pack is not very good with some comparisons to Tesla, Ford and Toyota. Could you explain in detail with references or something what Nissan did wrong but the others got right.

Mesuge

03-03-2011, 07:04 AM

Language issue? Details?
What about laziness and rigid groupthink for starters!

You guys are simply unreal, this is #20 page of debates on this very topic. Either read it again from page #1 or don't post at all, lol. So far most of the arguments against Renault-Nissan came true. Plus, the company is not even shipping the product in volumes as promised, also avoiding the winter season as plague, etc. Hopefully the preordered cars and rumped up production stock (sometime in the future?) will be made available after these delays and more like in ver 1.5 or 2.5, so complete disaster being avoided. I don't wish "EV grin" turning to "EV gnawing" on anyone.

palmer_md

03-03-2011, 09:06 AM

Thankyou..

Mesuge

03-03-2011, 09:10 AM

When D. Siry posted that warning article about the need for derating of these fantasmagorical performance specs presented by Renault-Nissan PR machine, many if not most doubted it, a lot of people went ballistic even on this forum only because someone pierced their dreamy bubble. That was more than a year ago, plus other related stories developing in the meantime (production delays, slow EVSE/chargers, ..)

Now, we got the confirmation from the first adopters, and mind you this is still before applying that derating factor for cycle life of the batteries, so in another words it will get progressively worse with elapsing time..

Stories from apparently "not rushed in" product, hah:

The second rule would be that, in cold weather, take the range that you think you should get, or apparently what the Leaf suggests you will get, and half it. Then subtract another 10 miles for a buffer. This may limit your range and when you can use the car but it will also prevent you from getting stuck and having to call for a tow.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2746&sid=664ef455f9d8a45e2916cb5b020bd4f0&start=100

I know a number of us have worried about Nissan (and even more Mitsubishi's) claims of being a 100 mile range car. To my experience the Roadster in Standard mode, on the highway, in around freezing temperatures is a 100 mile range car. That's with 40kWh accessible (Standard mode). A 24 kWh Leaf will be 60 miles. (An iMiev with 16 kWh probably just 40.)
This is all just disappointment and disillusionment waiting to happen.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/3093-Nissan-Leaf-100-Mile-Range-5-seat-EV-Announced/page73

// that latter comment is perhaps too optimistic in the data comparison, to be on the extra safe side Leaf is more like ~19.5kWh accessible energy storage, the same for iMiev or Volt (w. 25-30mi winter range)..

No true %SOC meter for gen1 (it has bee done +decade ago by GM/Toyota,..)
+another little secret (erratic range displaying dash from "outer space" apparently not designed for decimal system thinking creatures):
http://www.plugincars.com/ev-expert-says-nissan-leaf-dashboard-lacks-most-important-number-106590.html

!No OEM SOC meter on the dash so people have to pay 3rd party developers (crazy enough?):
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2794&hilit=obd

blast from the past, battery warranty games:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/11/16/follow-up-nissan-leaf-battery-warranty/

edit: providing some more links for general amusement..

chijayhawker

03-03-2011, 10:16 AM

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2746&sid=664ef455f9d8a45e2916cb5b020bd4f0&start=100

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/3093-Nissan-Leaf-100-Mile-Range-5-seat-EV-Announced/page73

PS and that latter comment is perhaps too optimistic in the data comparison, Leaf is more like ~19.5kWh accessible energy storage, the same for iMiev or Volt (w. 25-30mi winter range)..

Mesuge, you are quoting one person on the MyNissanLeaf Forum, who admits in his other posts that he isn't being a very cautious EV driver. Being an EV driver expecting long ranges without tempering your driving habits is a setup for failure. So of course that poster is having range issues. Others on the site in that same thread have pointed out that they are having no issues at all with the Leaf and are quite happy with the product. Again, your rants against the Leaf seems like your own personal "beef" with Nissan.

Mesuge

03-03-2011, 11:27 AM

Exactly, it's just my pet problem (disregard the voices of EV industry veterans and advocates) also it's because I'm still quoting only "one person", which is in fact perfectly fine with the Leaf, apparently posting hints on the brand forum to other users how not to get stranded on the cold street/highway, because the range estimator is oh-so reliable, so his advice is to derate the range mentaly by +50% all the time. What a concept and they say using handset is dangerous while driving because of lack of concentration. Hahaha..

Seriously, you Renault groupies are turning this into dark-comedy thread..

chijayhawker

03-03-2011, 02:21 PM

What a concept and they say using handset is dangerous while driving because of lack of concentration. Hahaha..

Are you suggesting that distracted driving isn't an issue? I can guarantee you that those who use hands free devices are significantly less distracted while talking on the phone in their vehicles. I would suggest that we should eliminate phones in vehicles altogether, but that is a bit draconic.

You have a strange sense of reality.

Mesuge

03-03-2011, 07:13 PM

SlowSRT4

03-03-2011, 08:22 PM

evmavin

03-03-2011, 08:41 PM

?Ever heard of sarcasm..
I'm saying the gen1 (or shell we say ver0.xx) Leaf is such an rushed-in/unfinished product (designed by ICE heads) it doesn't even have a proper %SOC meter on the dash, so people have to constantly compute the range, which is obviously very distracting. Or have to use 3rd party payware addons as linked in previous post..

That's because the average consumer has no clue what SOC is or how to use it. For most people using the car as intended it seems to work quite well. The Focus is a flat out conversion with a hefty curb weigh of 300 lbs more than the leaf. If the gen1 packs are a disaster Nissan will have to replace them for free or the company is gone. It's by no means a perfect EV but it certainly has no butterflies or doe snot cost over $100K.

DSC OFF

03-04-2011, 11:17 AM

doe snot cost over $100K.

That's some expensive boogers.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFcJa57S59seE_OdOHFn0oo7k8qc1QO 1kPmpzRA2yjDzzIx7YY

Mesuge

03-11-2011, 11:32 AM

That's because the average consumer has no clue what SOC is or how to use it. For most people using the car as intended it seems to work quite well.
Sorry, if avg. consumer doesn't know % he shouldn't be allowed on the streets driving >1t assault weapon in the first place, I gather that's a tough one, especially in the freefalling U.S. culture of the past years.

But it should have been due dilligence on the part of OEMs to take the advice and experience of EV community (true story linked on previous page) and incorporate dash %SOC as it was usually done in the mid 1990s or at least allow for some solid dataouput via OBD/can port of the car, no hacking needed. No, Renault people knew better and here is the expected result..

Left for dead - Nissan-electric-car-stranding-owners:
http://jalopnik.com/#!5780215/nissan-electric-car-stranding-owners

x