eTec charger / Leaf charger

[earther]

does anyone know if the eTec charger required to be installed by Nissan to order the Leaf is proprietary, or could it also be used to charge other EVs? (I noticed in the video it had the Nissan logo on it, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, as I'm pretty sure it's actually built by an independent manufacturer).

I tried to ask Nissan customer service this yesterday, but I think they must have been swamped during their deposit debut since I never really got a satisfactory response (just a canned answer that all my questions would be answered in an email on June 30th).

-Steve

[JimmyDreams]

does anyone know if the eTec charger required to be installed by Nissan to order the Leaf is proprietary, or could it also be used to charge other EVs? (I noticed in the video it had the Nissan logo on it, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, as I'm pretty sure it's actually built by an independent manufacturer).

I tried to ask Nissan customer service this yesterday, but I think they must have been swamped during their deposit debut since I never really got a satisfactory response (just a canned answer that all my questions would be answered in an email on June 30th).

-Steve

Unless there's some electronics in the charger that 'talk' to the car, then I'm sure you'll see adapters out there so you can use this charger with almost any EV. That's gotta be a side market just waiting to be filled.

[AndyH]

Nissan contracted with AeroVironment for charge interfaces. They are J1772 connectors - so the same charger can be used for any EV using the standard interface - and a LEAF can use any J1772 charge point.

http://www.avinc.com/plugin

eTech is installing some AeroVironment charge interfaces under a Department of Energy study - free charge interfaces in exchange for user data.

One of the public charger options is from Coulomb Technologies. So far the units fielded in the US appear to be 120V charge points (http://www.chargepointportal.net/index.php/device/devicelocation.html). I don't know who else is in the public charger game. One of the Nissan videos suggests that all of the legacy inductive chargers scattered around will be retrofitted with J1772 connectors so that should allow an easy expansion of the charger network.

Andy

[Matthijs]

They have a nice FAQ:

http://www.avinc.com/plugin/faq

Will it work with any electric vehicle?

Because the home charger's connector (the plug) is universal to most EVs, the charger is compatible with most EVs from large automakers.

[palmer_md]

Does anybody know the rating of the charger. All I get from the FAQ is that is it 240vac.

[AndyH]

Does anybody know the rating of the charger. All I get from the FAQ is that is it 240vac.

I don't know the rating of the internal charger. The J1772 standard and connector is good for up to 240V 80A. I've found one comment that the LEAF can use about 3300W from the 240V Level II charge port - so about 13A.

The Level III connector is apparently for a 440V DC feed, while the Level 1 and II connectors are 120V an 240V AC inputs.

I'm looking forward to exploring the 'car guts'. :D

Andy

[KarenRei]

I don't know the rating of the internal charger. The J1772 standard and connector is good for up to 240V 80A. I've found one comment that the LEAF can use about 3300W from the 240V Level II charge port - so about 13A.

The Level III connector is apparently for a 440V DC feed, while the Level 1 and II connectors are 120V an 240V AC inputs.

I'm looking forward to exploring the 'car guts'. :D

Andy

That would be surprisingly meager for 240V. I love the 440V port, but I am not surprised that they're not trying for any faster than 30 minutes to 80%, given their pack setup!

[palmer_md]

I've found one comment that the LEAF can use about 3300W from the 240V Level II charge port - so about 13A.

The Level III connector is apparently for a 440V DC feed, while the Level 1 and II connectors are 120V an 240V AC inputs.

I'm looking forward to exploring the 'car guts'. :D

Andy

According to the LEAF site the on-board charger is 3300 watts. This "charger" that they are selling to mount in the garage, seems to me that it is just a 240v plug to get 240vac to the on-board charger. If that is the case I'll just get a J1772 connector and make an adapter cord to go to the drier outlet I already have in my garage for charging my EV. The reason I say this is because 3300 is a bit much for the 120v outlet and it is not much on the 240v. They want a 20amp service for the wall mount charger so that would be 4800 watt which gives +/-5 hour charge time, but they are quoting 8 hour charge time which brings me back to 3300 watts which is the on-board charger rating.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong and that they are in fact selling a charger, but I still cant find any specs on it.



mechanical

* 80 kW AC synchronous electric motor
* 24 kWh lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery
* 3.3 kW onboard charger

[AndyH]

According to the LEAF site the on-board charger is 3300 watts. This "charger" that they are selling to mount in the garage, seems to me that it is just a 240v plug to get 240vac to the on-board charger. If that is the case I'll just get a J1772 connector and make an adapter cord to go to the drier outlet I already have in my garage for charging my EV. The reason I say this is because 3300 is a bit much for the 120v outlet and it is not much on the 240v. They want a 20amp service for the wall mount charger so that would be 4800 watt which gives +/-5 hour charge time, but they are quoting 8 hour charge time which brings me back to 3300 watts which is the on-board charger rating.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong and that they are in fact selling a charger, but I still cant find any specs on it.

Sorry, no. The charge interface is similar to the units used by the Ranger and other conductive EVs. On those vehicles, the charger is an integral part of the controller.

The interface feeds AC to the car, but not until it's made sure the car says it wants a charge, they negotiate current rate, and there are no error conditions (shorts, ground faults, etc.) that would make the car unsafe to charge or touch. The charge controller also provides the 'anti-driveaway under charge' lockout to the car.

One could buy a J1772 connector and connect to a dryer plug, but the car isn't supposed to take a charge until the interface and car communicate via the data wire/port on the plug.

In order to be 'legal' with the electric code, the J1772 charge interface must be hard-wired to the supply. (I know - I'll likely wire mine so I can take it on the road as well...)

Background:
http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/J1772_201001

http://teva2.com/J1772.html

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/13/clippercreek-now-taking-orders-for-ev-charger-with-new-j-1772-co/2 (some of the comments are more useful than the main post)

Andy

[palmer_md]

I realize that and I could easily go to Radio shack and design the required circuit for a few dollars. Over $2000 for a plug with a few resistors and capacitors and some fancy led's? If I'm going to pay for a charger in my home, then I'll put in a real charger. Heck even a Manzanito Micro PFC75 to dump the initial charge and then use the 120v onboard to finish it off.

[JimmyDreams]

FYI, I just chatted with Nissan's on-line help. I asked about the amperage requirements for the charger. They say 30amp minimum, 40 amp preferred.

YMMV.

[evmavin]

FYI, I just chatted with Nissan's on-line help. I asked about the amperage requirements for the charger. They say 30amp minimum, 40 amp preferred.

YMMV.


Not sure why as the charger is only 3.3 KW or so. At 240 that's under 15A. I think that may be the circuit as a reference for the charge box.

[palmer_md]

Well from the FAQ on the LEAF site it is :

# Q: If I want to "prewire" a new home for a future Nissan LEAF owner, what is required?
A: The home charging dock will require a 240V/20amp (40amp is even better) dedicated circuit connected to a breaker. The charger will need to be hard-wired directly to the circuit by a certified electrician..


If they are only going to use 3300 watts then 20 is all they need, but if you run something more you'll be sure it wont trip the breaker, and if they decide to change something in the future you'll be covered. I'd say run 40 amp service, but it won't take that much right now.

[evmavin]

I realize that and I could easily go to Radio shack and design the required circuit for a few dollars. Over $2000 for a plug with a few resistors and capacitors and some fancy led's? If I'm going to pay for a charger in my home, then I'll put in a real charger. Heck even a Manzanito Micro PFC75 to dump the initial charge and then use the 120v onboard to finish it off.


I did that with the AVCON and bought the cord and made the circuit for the pilot for about $10, saved a bundle. Since the Leaf has a DC input one could buy a PFC 75 and make it work, this could offer 18KW which would charge the car quite fast, one could even take it along for the ride since they are not too large.

[AndyH]

It's interesting to see some of the charging possibilities! I'll likely order the J1772 spec just to read thru, and will certainly explore the car when it arrives, as I do my own work and will want to know all the details.

And I'd enjoy the 'build your own interface' project.

But for my own use I'll likely not need the 240V charge interface very often if at all due to the low number of miles I drive each week. It's good to be retired/self employed and working from home (when I feel like it). :)

Andy

[AndyH]

Good briefing on the state of EV charging from the folks making equipment for Nissan

http://www.cars21.com/files/news/EVS-24-3960315%20Botsford.pdf

Abstract
This paper presents the issues facing the future widespread use of electric vehicles (EVs) relative to battery charging infrastructure for both fast charging and slow charging. In particular, we discuss:
• Charge scheme definitions: What is fast charging? What is slow charging?
• Infrastructure requirements and grid impacts: The role of connectors, charger/vehicle communications, time-of-use electricity costs, and grid upgrades/synergies.
• The trades between cycle life and charge schemes for the major competing lithium battery chemistries. Pack size versus vehicle cost and charge time. Energy density versus power density. The psychological factors of deploying EV infrastructure that includes both fast and slow charging.

[AndyH]

Nice overview of the LEAF from the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments. Covers history, production, charging, IT system, etc.

http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/committee-documents/a15ZXF5X20100316100552.pdf

[eestorfan]

Well from the FAQ on the LEAF site it is :



If they are only going to use 3300 watts then 20 is all they need, but if you run something more you'll be sure it wont trip the breaker, and if they decide to change something in the future you'll be covered. I'd say run 40 amp service, but it won't take that much right now.

Palmer...we don't use our dryer anymore (motor went out)...do you know how many amps a large dryer (Whirlpool Duet) uses? Thanks!

[AndyH]

http://www.automotivedigest.com/cms/docLibrary/2/2011_Nissan_Leaf_3_16_2010-10_31_AM.pdf

“Nissan's next generation of Li-ion batteries, which may double the car's range, according to the company, could be ready by 2012, when the Leaf should be available at dealerships nationwide.”

[AndyH]

...do you know how many amps a large dryer (Whirlpool Duet) uses? Thanks!

What's the label on the dryer say?

[KarenRei]

Palmer...we don't use our dryer anymore (motor went out)...do you know how many amps a large dryer (Whirlpool Duet) uses? Thanks!

Dryer sockets are 30A nominal, although you don't want to pull a steady 30 from it. Does anyone know if Nissan wants 30A rated or 30A steady capability?

[JimmyDreams]

Confession of an Aptera Lover:

When I first saw the Aptera, I thought it was the coolest EV ever conceived. I put down a deposit and waited. Even from the start, I felt like I had to pull information out of Aptera and then filter it through wiser-than-me forum members (like Karen). While I was always amped about Aptera, I always felt like Aptera would only occasionally stoop down to it's reservation holders to give them information. In short, Aptera (the company) stole the dream from me by being shitty communicators. They tried, but high-school level press releases and a web site that a 12 year old could maintain better screamed of a company with a great idea for a product, and no idea how to bring it to fruition.

Maybe it's just the initial stages, but I get the complete OPPOSITE feeling about the Leaf. I wish it looked a little cooler, but as far as professionalism and info-passing goes, Nissan could teach a thing or two (or more) to Aptera. Nissan hit the ground running and my interaction with them has been wonderful. Heck I hated the Prius when it first came out, now I'd love to own one. ;)

I'm on the Leaf reservation list. I may buy or lease. I feel one thing is certain; the EV market is about to make serious inroads into conventional wisdom when it comes to vehicles, and public opinion will change dramatically. Whether or not Aptera will be a part of that remains to be seen.

[aptera1213]

Dryer sockets are 30A nominal, although you don't want to pull a steady 30 from it. Does anyone know if Nissan wants 30A rated or 30A steady capability?

Not sure...but they have this blurb:


The home charging dock will require a 240V/20amp (40amp is even better) dedicated circuit connected to a breaker. The charger will need to be hard-wired directly to the circuit by a certified electrician..

I will probably go ahead and throw a 40amp line to my garage this summer....I replaced my 40 year old circuit box from 100amps with a new 200amp box last summer when we added our pool...At the time I thought 200 was overkill, but now I'm glad I did.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

Confession of an Aptera Lover:

When I first saw the Aptera, I thought it was the coolest EV ever conceived. I put down a deposit and waited. Even from the start, I felt like I had to pull information out of Aptera and then filter it through wiser-than-me forum members (like Karen). While I was always amped about Aptera, I always felt like Aptera would only occasionally stoop down to it's reservation holders to give them information. In short, Aptera (the company) stole the dream from me by being shitty communicators. They tried, but high-school level press releases and a web site that a 12 year old could maintain better screamed of a company with a great idea for a product, and no idea how to bring it to fruition.

Maybe it's just the initial stages, but I get the complete OPPOSITE feeling about the Leaf. I wish it looked a little cooler, but as far as professionalism and info-passing goes, Nissan could teach a thing or two (or more) to Aptera. Nissan hit the ground running and my interaction with them has been wonderful. Heck I hated the Prius when it first came out, now I'd love to own one. ;)

I'm on the Leaf reservation list. I may buy or lease. I feel one thing is certain; the EV market is about to make serious inroads into conventional wisdom when it comes to vehicles, and public opinion will change dramatically. Whether or not Aptera will be a part of that remains to be seen.

Well put .

[palmer_md]

I will probably go ahead and throw a 40amp line to my garage this summer....I replaced my 40 year old circuit box from 100amps with a new 200amp box last summer when we added our pool...At the time I thought 200 was overkill, but now I'm glad I did.

Gavin

40 is probably the safest bet. It looks like the car comes standard with one 3.3kW charger, but there are hints that the car might be available with an optional second on-board charger for a total of 6.6kW. 20amp is enough for the base model, but you'll need 40amp to have the second on-board charger. There is nothing that specifically states this, but there are hints on the LEAF website. The difference in cost for running 40 instead of 20 is almost nothing.

[earther]

...as far as professionalism and info-passing goes, Nissan could teach a thing or two (or more) to Aptera...

While I do agree with your sentiment, I think it's important to realize that to some extent we're comparing apples and oranges here (with respect to the companies, not necessarily the product).

Nissan is an multinational company that has (hundreds of) millions of dollars in resources, (hundreds of) thousands of employees, and nearly a century of experience making and marketing cars. Aptera has only the merest fraction of those resources. So to directly contrast the two and ask "why can't Aptera be like Nissan" doesn't feel like a fair comparison to me.

That said, I do wish Aptera's communication had been better, though certainly this is one area that we can say has noticeably improved under the new management.

-Steve

[aptera1213]

Really? Team A put out lots of early emails and such until Team B came on board. And my emails got answered very very quickly in the early days (Emily replied the same day all the time).

Then came a long absence of communication, followed by some monthly newsletters (which is good) but little else. The website floundered, updates non-existent and emails rarely answered.

Ask Antjel how it was to get in touch with Aptera to even try and give them money.

Now today, after days and days of emails, Aptera finally answered me. And that is great. But I had to send 5 or 6 emails to every contact at Aptera I could find.

So I see it as, fair communication for a start up at first, followed by insane silence, followed by nice newsletters, but no real communication other than that. I hope it improves, but the last week has not be comforting.

I don't know who to blame the middle silence on, it could be either team A or B...but communications is something Aptera needs to address stat and address hard.

as always...i wish them well...but hard work will work better than wishes :)

Gavin

[palmer_md]

That said, I do wish Aptera's communication had been better, though certainly this is one area that we can say has noticeably improved under the new management.

-Steve

I see you joined 7/08. Given that you are a late registrant and I don't know how long you were lurking before you joined, I'll have to say that I think I disagree with that statement.

Prior to Paul joining in 9/08 there was fantastic communication from Aptera. After that date communication fell off to nothing. In 11/09 they began to start a pattern of communicating again. If you mean that the "noticeably improved" over time then I agree. If you mean that Paul's marketing group is better than Steve's was then I disagree.

[LTLFTcomposite]

40 is probably the safest bet. It looks like the car comes standard with one 3.3kW charger, but there are hints that the car might be available with an optional second on-board charger for a total of 6.6kW. 20amp is enough for the base model, but you'll need 40amp to have the second on-board charger. There is nothing that specifically states this, but there are hints on the LEAF website. The difference in cost for running 40 instead of 20 is almost nothing.

Particularly if the run is short.

The most expensive way to go would be to put in a 20A two-phase circuit (#12 wire) then decide it isn't enough and have to re-do the job with #8 wire.

[KarenRei]

Yeah. The difference in price between different gauges of copper is (relatively) cheap. Labor isn't.

[evnow]

It looks like the car comes standard with one 3.3kW charger....

I wonder why they are doing that. Would a 6.6kW charger be materially more expensive ?

BTW, in my hurry I didn't note this - but I saw some commenting on the "fast charger" as one addition in SL model. Anyone saw this ?

[AndyH]

I wonder why they are doing that. Would a 6.6kW charger be materially more expensive ?

BTW, in my hurry I didn't note this - but I saw some commenting on the "fast charger" as one addition in SL model. Anyone saw this ?

The right charger plug on the front of the car is the Level I and II port. It accepts 120VAC or 240VAC with the J1772 connector.

The left connect is the 'fast charger' and is for 400V/480V DC. It should be on all the trim levels - SV and SL.

There's some question about whether later cars will have the quick charge connector (the initial cars are supposed to be shipped with the direct current ports) because there isn't yet a US standard for fast charging connectors. (This was from somewhere in blog/internet land - not from NISSAN.) The Japanese cars use a TEPCO connector and they're lobbying for this to be the world-wide standard (http://www.examiner.com/x-16352-Japan-Headlines-Examiner~y2010m3d16-Standardized-electric-vehicle-chargers-coming-to-Japan-CHAdeMO). There are US power companies and charger companies in CHAdeMO...

Here's a pretty good overview of the car: http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/committee-documents/a15ZXF5X20100316100552.pdf

And one of the US licensees of the Tokyo Electric Power chargers: http://akerwade.indigofiles.com/AkerWade_EVFC_Specsheet.pdf

Enjoy!
Andy

[AndyH]

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1044377_2011-nissan-leaf-we-order-ours-and-show-you-how

evnow - take a look at page 3 (http://www.allcarselectric.com/image/100310821_2011-nissan-leaf-ordering-process) - here's the info on the two trim levels. Nothing there about charge ports. I think we're safe. ;)

Andy

[evnow]

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1044377_2011-nissan-leaf-we-order-ours-and-show-you-how

evnow - take a look at page 3 (http://www.allcarselectric.com/image/100310821_2011-nissan-leaf-ordering-process) - here's the info on the two trim levels. Nothing there about charge ports. I think we're safe. ;)

Andy

Thx - I had forgotten about that article.

So, is homelink universal tranceiver only for SL ?

[NeilBlanchard]

What is a "homelink universal tran[s]ceiver"? I don't think there are any differences in the charging or anything to do with the EV, between the trim levels. They are *trim* levels...

[LTLFTcomposite]

What is a "homelink universal tran[s]ceiver"? I don't think there are any differences in the charging or anything to do with the EV, between the trim levels. They are *trim* levels...

It's basically a built-in garage door opener so you don't have to have one clipped to the sun visor. One of our other cars has it, with three "channels" so you can control multiple openers, and you can also set up some way to have it turn on the lights in your house. It will also control the gate on a gated community but more of those are going to bar codes and man traps.

[futura]

I don't think there are any differences in the charging or anything to do with the EV, between the trim levels. They are *trim* levels...
When I signed up, the Leaf-SV option claimed to not include the quick-charge connector (~400V DC) which the SV option did. I signed up for two vehicles, the first was SL and no mention was made of the connector, IIRC; the second vehicle was SV and I was specifically asked if I wanted to upgrade to SL as that was one of the included features.
Nissan is being kind of vague about feature specifics. Hopefully, this will be ironed out by their June 30 deadline.

[scottsim]

This from a dialog with a Leaf guy:

Scott:
so what will be the charging options on the finished car?

Roland:
"Level One Charging uses 110V - 15 A, The Charge Power is 1.4kW and would take about 18 hours to charge. Level 2 (low) Charging uses 220 V -15A, The Charge Power is 3.3kW and will charge in about 8 hours Level 2 (high) Charging uses 220 V - 30A, The Charge Power is 6.6kW and will charge in about 4 hours Level 3 Charging uses 480V - 167A, The Charge Power is 70 - 50 kW and will charge in 20 -50 minutes."

[AndyH]

I'll point out again one of the docs I provided up the chain. It's a 20 page 'briefing' document dated March 2010 provided to the Metro Washington DC Council of Governments as (I believe) part of Nissan US's EV infrastructure lobbying.

http://www.mwcog.org/uploads/committee-documents/a15ZXF5X20100316100552.pdf

It shows NISSAN's EV history, the car, charging, production, the IT system, diagrams, definitions, etc.

It's well worth adding to one's document collection and will save a lot of research and live-chat time.

I gave a copy to my shiny, new Nissan dealership Leaf specialist - he hadn't seen it -- or any other useful info on the car. :confused: :D

Andy

[evnow]

I'll point out again one of the docs I provided up the chain. It's a 20 page 'briefing' document dated March 2010 provided to the Metro Washington DC Council of Governments as (I believe) part of Nissan US's EV infrastructure lobbying.

I now have 3 versions of this !

Oct '09 : https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXNDcxMWMzZWUtNmJjYy00MDIwL WEwNzctZDA5ODdhN2ZjMTE2&hl=en

Jan '10 : https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXYWRjZTZmMmEtZGNiZi00NjJjL WE4OWItZDA5ZGE4NTIyY2Iw&hl=en

Mar '10 : https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXZmYzNWExN2MtZmQzZi00ODE4L WJiMDMtMmQxNTlkZmIxMjFh&hl=en

[AndyH]

Excellent! Glad you've got the latest version of the 'world' according to Nissan. From an information validity standpoint - this is likely more accurate than 95% of the info one can find on the internet. ;)

I look forward to reviewing the earlier versions for signs of 'evolution'. Thanks!

[AndyH]

I now have 3 versions of this !

Oct '09 : https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXNDcxMWMzZWUtNmJjYy00MDIwL WEwNzctZDA5ODdhN2ZjMTE2&hl=en

Jan '10 : https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXYWRjZTZmMmEtZGNiZi00NjJjL WE4OWItZDA5ZGE4NTIyY2Iw&hl=en

Mar '10 : https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1CIl2zp22pXZmYzNWExN2MtZmQzZi00ODE4L WJiMDMtMmQxNTlkZmIxMjFh&hl=en

Thanks again! The Oct 09 doc is FULL of good stuff!

Andy

[nogas]

Thanks for the files!