Why I wanted an Aptera...and why I have canceled my reservation.

[aptera1213]

Ok, I thought I might lay out the reasons I soooo wanted an Aptera. And why I have, not happily, not hurtfully, canceled my reservation.

1) I loved the way the Aptera looked.
2. I loved getting an electric and getting off gas.
3) The Aptera was going to be priced very affordable compared to other Electrics planned. Loved that.
4) The Aptera was going to be first to market for affordable, highway capable, multi-passenger electric vehicles. Loved that.
5) It was highly efficient. I like that, but I was never a huge efficiency nut like some here...I just wanted electric with good range and soon...and I loved the Jetson vibe.

Canceling was hard. I still like the Aptera, I still hope it succeeds. We need EVs on the road. Many on the road and many styles. So it wasn't easy. But...

1) I still like the way the Aptera 2e looks, but I don't love it. So not really a huge negative, but a bit of a step backwards for me.
2) Still applies. Electric good, Gas bad. But now there are more choices. Before it was Aptera and....??
3) The Aptera was going to be the cheapest EV to market that was multi-passenger and highway capable. It could still be affordable, but others are as cheap or cheaper. So price, while possibly still nice, isn't the big plus that Aptera use to have.
4) First to market is lost. I really want an EV as soon as possible as I want to promote EVs, and I want to get the infrastructure going...NOW. So this was huge in Apteras favor before...and is actually huge against Aptera now.
5) Highly efficent wasn't big for me before, isn't big for me now. Aptera stays the same here. I want 70-100 miles range. I can get that from the 2e, the LEAF, the FocusEV (likely), the Th!nk City, Fiat and others. So this doesn't really change for the good or bad.

So....

1) slight minus (but not horrid as the PP6.5 was such a huge plus...so a bit less than a huge plus isn't too bad)... From Love to Like.
2) Same. Electric is good. Love it.
3) From cheapest to maybe still kinda cheap, but others are more affordable....From Love to OK.
4) From first to ???? Dislike.
5) No change...From Like to Like



So from 4 loves and one Like...we go to 1 love, 2 Likes, 1 OK and 1 dislike....yes all very scientific... :)

The last added point could be safety. I never worried much about it, nor even still now. I ride a bicycle or scooter every day of the year. Any Aptera was way WAY safer than anything I currently ride. But I always thought the 2e would be safe. I still think it will be, but I must admit I never thought it would handle as bad as it looked in the CR video.
But that is a minor point...and not part of my decision to get a reservation in 2008, nor to cancel it 2 plus years later.
And this doesn't include some of the other negatives that didn't really concern me...start ups fail often, no national dealerships or service, etc. I knew those where down points before, they are still down points today. So no real change. I was willing to roll the dice on a start up 2 years ago, I would still roll the dice on a start up today. I'm brave like that ;)

Gavin

[plainar]

Gavin's path to cancellation inspired me to reflection. I never reserved an Aptera, but kept looking for a reason to tie up $500. I fell in love with Zen. I watched and waited and watched and waited... and could never quite get to actually reserving one. After PBW took over, I held out hope for about a minute and then I realized the dream was over. I have watched so many (fans, employees and investors) come to the Aptera pinnacle of hope and then be let down.

I want to drive a pure EV! I was willing to live with a few quirks, but now that there are more EV options, I've reserved a Leaf. There's really no reason not to reserve a Leaf. Aptera lost its market position for cupholders, roll-down windows and the market research of ingress/egress. This is insane when you consider what was lost. Aptera is now overpriced, overweight and too late!

I will continue to watch Aptera and remark when I feel compelled. Aptera will have to win the xprize to regain momentum. The youtube video where the door flew open attracted 11k viewers. All other auto xprize videos were hardly viewed in comparison. I believe this is due to "original" momentum, not because Aptera suddenly has all these new fans. I'm still moved by the beauty of Zen, the performance of PP7 and the founders' vision--all of which are gone.

IF the 2e ever makes it to production and the new owners post here (I want a true third party opinion) about how happy they are, well I might reconsider an order. By then I should be half way through my Leaf lease and ready to reserve my next EV. The future looks bright :).

[JustWilliam]

I feel similarly. I have very simply fallen out of love with Aptera. There are a myriad of failures and broken promises that we've all discussed and debated to death, but for me, it boils down to grace.

In a memorable episode of Seinfeld, Elaine learns that there is no such thing as having "a little" grace. It's like pregnancy that way. You either have grace, or you do not. The PP series had grace, and was developed with grace. The "new and improved" 2e has NO grace, and came about through a graceless process.

I wish Aptera well, and would love to see them succeed, but the bloom is off the rose for me personally. The Think, Fiat 500EV, smart ED, ect. will be more practical for urbanites, and Nissan Leaf and Ford Focus EV's will be freeway commuters with far more practicality. Aptera has plenty of competition in the "alternative" class, fighting for a VERY limited market niche.

I still have my trusty old VW Dasher Biodiesel wagon for tri weekly commutes, hauling, and camping. My Trek Calypso bike still provides the majority of my urban transportation, and with the "E-Bike Kit" I can FINALLY afford ($1k, 20 mph, 20 mile range, LiFePO batteries, 18 month warranty) it will be even MORE useful. This forum, with it's whip-smart moderators and passionate members, is the only reason I care at all about Aptera. So thanks to all of you for keeping it all alive for me.

Peace,
William

[aptera1213]

Wow...thanks for that post...yes it is late on a Saturday night...and I just spent the last 5 hours hanging with family and friends drinking and eating and talking while music played and child ran and laughed through the backyard...but still that was a horribly sweet post... So thanks :)

Gavin

[Ardie3301]

My wife came home one day gushing about a co-worker who just put down a deposit on an all-electric car. Two seats, 100+ mile range, going to be built in Southern California around the end of 2008, and the price was going to be "reasonable."

I had to look into it, and surfed the 'net for the rest of the evening. What I found, I liked. I mean, I was their perfect demographic candidate. Southern California dweller, middle age with disposeable income and other conventional cars for other trips, a commute within the limits of the Typ-1's projected range, and an old car that could stand to be replaced. Shucks, I could even hold on to the car so there wouldn't even be a trade-in. How much better a match would Aptera want in a customer? Ohyeah. My daughter said "It is so cool! When do you get it?"

That did it. I coughed up a credit card and placed a $500 refundable deposit for a place in line when they started setting prices and building cars (er, "vehicles") for real.

I blundered onto this Aptera forum website that was a constant gossip line about Aptera's progress, and each and every announced (or sleuthed) feature was discussed ad nauseum. Prototypes were seen and photographed, tiny bits of information leaked, and general disappointment set in when the release date slipped from October 2008 to April 2009, a couple of "Aptera Sightings" that had been planned, with some four other Sightings never materialized, the announcement of new management with some savvy about how cars are built (and hopefully, advantageous sources for subassemblies), then 3rd quarter 2009, then end of year 2009, and the management shakeup with cofounders Steve Chris going away for a "vacation" that was surely to turn into a departure.

Then the stories of the refunds switching from getting checks in 10 days to getting notification that your credit card was being re-credited with the deposit refund.

That last bit was the signal for me to, um, step out of line, and ask for a refund of my 1-1/2 year old deposit in the fears that any day now Aptera's doors would shut forever. I have kept lurking because I couldn't just walk away from this. It was just too juicy.

More debate on the Forum raged on, and the rage became (more or less) real rage directed at the management as to why there were endless delays, why changes were being made without their permission, and every change that was revealed was declared to be "ugly" by at least one Forum member. The Forum slowly degenerated into a witch hunt to see who was responsible for *not* producing a car (er, "vehicle") that many thought would be built by now.

Okay, the Aptera 2e SO-1 version has been publicly announced, and the X-Prize competion is going on as I write.

Whether the Aptera actually comes in first place or not, it appears that if it *does* finish, it has become a vehicle worthy of respect. It *certainly* isn't the design that co-founder Steve F. had in mind, and it isn't the PP6 design that most of us here thought was the final cut. But barring some other X-Prize disaster, it seems that the SO-1 may actually hit the showrooms someday. Current scuttlebut predicts a roll-out date (and I use the term loosely) of 2012.

Do I regret reclaiming my deposit? Yes, a little. The SO-1 still sounds like a viable commuter for me. I still think it would be oh-so-cool for my daughter to start driving an all-electric car, being in that rareified vanguard of those who drive an elecric car and know no other kind.

HOWEVER, the competition is coming up fast. I may not wait for Aptera and purchase one of the many other all-electric vehicle that will be available in the next couple of years.

-- Ardie
And Fisker is even closer to me than Aptera.

[aptera1213]

Nice post.

For me the PP6.5 and the Fiat 500Ev are about the same in how much I want one and how much I like the looks and all that.

The SO-1 isn't ugly, but I don't love it...and without love, well the drawbacks are too huge (too wide for my garage...would have to add 5k to the car price to tear out my current garage front and make a new one).

So if I have to wait till 2012 for a SO-1, I would rather wait till 2012 and get the Fiat.

The nice thing is you don't have to wait for 2012...Get a Nissan in 2010 or 2011 for your daughter. Or a Ford Focus Ev in 2011. Or a Th!nk in 2011.

More choice is good for us. Good for getting the required infrastructure. Good for everyone...except maybe the small start ups like Aptera (and Th!nk could be a tough road too). But as you said, it seems likely Aptera just might make it to market, just how long they remain on market is the question...do they have a plan to sell 3k a year and survive? Or do they need to sell over 10k a year to survive? If so, well the Mazda Miata isn't even selling over 10k a year, and that is the most popular 2 seater on the market. 2 seaters don't sell a lot...just the way it is in America.

As for the rage...well I hope that has passed a bit. Many have raged and given up and moved on...others have raged, and still stay...

As for it being a viable commuter...yep...which is sweet...of course the viable EV commuter market is starting to get, not so much crowded, but it is growing...Aptera had the market all it itself, or so it seemed...now the horizon is cluttered with tailpipeless cars barreling silently down the road toward the consumers....yeah...

Gavin

[Marc]

It *certainly* isn't the design that co-founder Steve F. had in mind
and therein lies the greatest mistake of all. As I see it, Steve wasn't swinging for the fences... he wanted to get on base, or at best hit a double, with a NICHE car I call "Motorcycle PLUS". A home run wasn't required.. heck - I was fine without the damm windows and so were 3k other buyers...Incidentally, isn't that almost 100M of revenue? That color of money is a little better in hindsight, isn't it? You don't have to give up equity for it.

In this case and many others, the "swing for the fences" VC mantra was wrong. I would hope the limited partners are raising hell behind close doors.

[Grendal]

and therein lies the greatest mistake of all. As I see it, Steve wasn't swinging for the fences... he wanted to get on base, or at best hit a double, with a NICHE car I call "Motorcycle PLUS". A home run wasn't required.. heck - I was fine without the damm windows and so were 3k other buyers...Incidentally, isn't that almost 100M of revenue? That color of money is a little better in hindsight, isn't it? You don't have to give up equity for it.

In this case and many others, the "swing for the fences" VC mantra was wrong. I would hope the limited partners are raising hell behind close doors.

It would be great if the BOD were raising hell, but all indications we've seen here is that they aren't. They jumped on the mainstreaming idea with both feet and are backing it to the bitter end. They've gone down this road and we're all awaiting the outcome. You can still see the kernal of Steve and Chris's idea but the S0-1 certainly doesn't have the same feel as the Zen and the PP6. I'd still like them to win the X-prize but now I'm not so sure...

[JustWilliam]

and therein lies the greatest mistake of all. As I see it, Steve wasn't swinging for the fences... he wanted to get on base, or at best hit a double, with a NICHE car I call "Motorcycle PLUS". A home run wasn't required.. heck - I was fine without the damm windows and so were 3k other buyers...Incidentally, isn't that almost 100M of revenue? That color of money is a little better in hindsight, isn't it? You don't have to give up equity for it.

In this case and many others, the "swing for the fences" VC mantra was wrong. I would hope the limited partners are raising hell behind close doors.
Very succinctly said.

They traded an early niche market they could have owned and organically grown, for a massively delayed, overweight, poorly proportioned, less efficient EV that is now optimized for drive-through's.

But hey- I'm wrong all the time.

[Jonathan Sek]

I've kept the faith and my $500 deposit in place, but have similar worries:

I wanted an all-out move towards efficiency, which means best case aerodynamics, efficient drive train and lowest weight.

So, the company brings in Detroit veterans and we have people trained to "not fail" in the marketplace. They worry about ingress/egress, windows, front wheel drive etc., all moving the vehicle from the founders original design intent. It was originally intended to be a niche vehicle.

Engineering is a process of trade-offs and doing market studies with the general public who cannot understand, appreciate or evaluate these trade-offs will lead to a blander vehicle that can do many things well, but not a few things excellently.

[motornature]

There's nothing wrong with niche vehicles, but can the Aptera company be profitable selling low volumes?

If we want the Aptera company to be successful, the first thing we want is that its products are attractive to as many customers as possible.

[aptera1213]

Not to sound mean, but then Aptera should make a Camry.

The thing is Aptera did plan to be profitable at low numbers. They wanted to do the anti-tesla thing...start with the affordable 2e and then make the 4 door model.

But they always thought they could make the 2e at a good price, sell it at a good price and then expand.

The new model seems to be "sell a ton of them to survive." But the 2e is not a "sell a ton" model. No 2 seater is, let alone a start up with such an unusual shape.

Survive on a couple of thousand a year and then hopefully expand as people see and like them.

Lots of companies offer a product and survive with a small niche.

But waiting has been bad for Aptera. If they had gotten the 2e out when they had 4000 orders, well those order numbers would have gone up. Cars on the street sell more cars on the street. Instead those order numbers have taken a dive.

On top of that, and perhaps unexpectedly, Major Car Companies have decided to join the game, and join fast and strong.

Aptera might have been niche, but they would have owned that niche. Now they won't even be first to that niche market...let alone having the name, the service centers, the car dealerships.

Now Aptera can still have a nice little market...to people who love the shape, want to stand out from the crowd...but any hope of growth from that niche market is gone GONE.

So, to recap....

Before....Aptera is niche, but could grow a bit...maybe not mainstream, but definitely Niche Plus.
Now....Aptera is niche and will stay niche as some will like the Aptera, just like before, but any real growth market is taken by Nissan and Ford and Th!nk and Mits and Fiat and Toyota etc etc.

The Aptera is attractive to us, but really it is not a product that is attractive to as many customers as possible.

Gavin

[Grendal]

Before....Aptera is niche, but could grow a bit...maybe not mainstream, but definitely Niche Plus.
Now....Aptera is niche and will stay niche as some will like the Aptera, just like before, but any real growth market is taken by Nissan and Ford and Th!nk and Mits and Fiat and Toyota etc etc.

The Aptera is attractive to us, but really it is not a product that is attractive to as many customers as possible.

Gavin

And the current management abuses the happy niche consumer and is confused by their current unhappiness.

A niche customer would have been annoyed but amused by the fact that the door button could accidentally be activated by an errant knee. They would forgive the foibles of their unique vehicle and loved it in spite of its shortcomings. People have a completely different attitude and expectation toward a mainstream vehicle.

It's an old tune, but they should have put out the PP6.5 and lived with the consequences. Now they just look stupid.

[Marc]

A niche customer would have been annoyed but amused by the fact that the door button could accidentally be activated by an errant knee.

Disagree. That's an early adopter, not a niche customer. First movers get early adopters for customers, and they make your product better by being part of the family. It's cheaper that way, and its a proven effective strategy. So is swinging for the fences in less capital-intensive industries with more effective management. :)

[PPPPaul]

I'll take the earliest in line 'cause I want the nontraditional styling!

I'll offer an extra $25 for your trouble. Let me know when you put your $500 down.

[Grendal]

PPPPaul, if you could even place a reservation, you'd be close to the front. Nearly everyone has dropped out at this point. Either they've moved on to other vehicles or simply got tired of waiting. The few remaining probably just haven't bothered to ask for their money back. I'm very sad to say there is no production coming down the pipeline. Good luck.

[JustWilliam]

I'll take the earliest in line 'cause I want the nontraditional styling!

I'll offer an extra $25 for your trouble. Let me know when you put your $500 down.
Most forum members who had reservations for years have asked for their $500 BACK. No new reservations are being taken at this time. If you find a remaining reservation holder, it's unlikely that they CAN "sell" you their reservation slot, even with the sum of $25 you offer for their "trouble".

This forum is rather like an Aptera Historical Society, with the bonus of additional information and intelligent conversation on a variety of EV's, technological progress, and other "green" topics. It's remarkable that the forum has so many dedicated and active members, and the finest of moderators. Welcome!

My only recommendation and caveat is that you refer to the vast amount of data (both technical and emotional) collected over the last four or so years, and recognize that the 2e has almost no chance of reaching production under the present strategy, business model and management. The very idea that Aptera would become a manufacturer through a massive Department of Energy loan is laughable in the era of the Tea Party. When conservative politicians are eager to gut or dismantle the Environmental Protection Agency, or prevent any new plants and animals from the Endangered Species List, it's safe to assume that Aptera will NOT be funded.

Forgive me if I sound harsh, but our government is mere HOURS away from a potentially disastrous financial default, and you are using your first post to offer $25 to be "earliest in line" for "the nontraditional styling!". I'm not offended by your post, but it IS astonishingly ignorant in current context. I can only hope that you are more educated, sensitive and aware when submitting your second post.

Sincerely,
William

[PatQ562]

I started to read this relatively short thread from the beginning, nodding my head as another faithful fan calls it quits - until I got to the "X-prize" reference and double checked the posting dates. These expressions of dismay were written well over a year ago and the situation has only gone downhill since then. Sad, sad, sad.

Pat Q

[JustWilliam]

I started to read this relatively short thread from the beginning, nodding my head as another faithful fan calls it quits - until I got to the "X-prize" reference and double checked the posting dates. These expressions of dismay were written well over a year ago and the situation has only gone downhill since then. Sad, sad, sad.

Pat Q
I couldn't agree more Pat. SAD.

I'm even disappointed in myself, because I have little appreciation and patience for new forum members who seem to oblivious to the "Wilbur Era" debacle. So many begin their forum membership with outrageous and/or insulting two sentence posts, never sticking around long enough to learn, share, or intelligently debate.

[Grendal]

The "Wilbur Era" debacle. I became interested in the vehicle just after they hired him. I lurked on the forum through the first delay in January 2009. "Here's our promise - we're doing a redesign that'll improve the vehicle and the first production vehicle will go out in October." October comes and no vehicle. The owners are removed. New redesigns are promised. Are they even going to make it to the X-prize? Barely. Lots of chest thumping. Shame and humiliation at the X-prize. Crickets since... One only has to look at the sleek aerodynamic beauty at the top of the page to see Steve and Chris' dream. Debacle indeed. Paul Wilbur should be ashamed, along with those that empowered him to ruin the Aptera. Very sad. Now I'm just waiting for the denouement.

I still enjoy the knowledgable commentary. Thanks.

[SEGsby]

Mr. Travis needs to keep more up to date concerning the debacle the "Detroit Team" brought to bringing the Aptera to market...

Any existing reservations are worthless if there is no physical product for sale.