Thanks RAL

[SEGsby]

Thanks for setting me straight, "Real Aptera Lover"...

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4058/4612640875_9fb3d16596_o.png

Now I know what EV to buy.

[aptera1213]

Wow...RAL has gotten under somebodies skin... :)

Gavin

[magnru]

I would never purchase a Nissan again. I have a Nissan Quest 97 GXE MINIVAN and it couldn't pass smog because the NOX Sensor went out. To replace the sensor the engine had to be lifted in order to get to where the sensor was located. Only then could it be replaced. I remember it costing me an arm and a leg to have that sensor replaced. It was like the designers had a deal with the Nissan Dealer to place the sensor in a location that would make money for them. I swore never to purchase another Nissan product again. magnru 'TYPE 2H' #2783

[evmavin]

I have never owned one, always bought Toyotas but if the Leaf looks good then it's a done deal.

[scottsim]

On the Leaf...I care WAY less about looks than range. The 100mi LA4 range for me is the most serious deterrant.

[aptera1213]

No worries from me:...

One: don't think you have any problems with the O2 sensor on a LEAF :)

two: had a sentra for 10 years...not one day in the shop. Other than routine oil change and belts. Only car I've ever had that I can say tha about.

Range is fine for me too, but that will obviously be a case to case issue. Any city driver should be fine. Suburban drivers will be likely 50/50....rural drivers will likely have to wait some time for the correct battery range.

Gavin

[javan]

I love my Prius, but the most fun car to drive I ever had was a Nissan 280zx which was pure hot fun. That gave me an appreciation for Nissan handling. We will see what the Leaf can do (if Aptera doesn't make it).

[evmavin]

I love my Prius, but the most fun car to drive I ever had was a Nissan 280zx which was pure hot fun. That gave me an appreciation for Nissan handling. We will see what the Leaf can do (if Aptera doesn't make it).


I have a feeling the door won't pop open if you turn sharp. I would also expect the handling to be decent, much better with better tires but there goes the efficiency.

[SEGsby]

BTW... Was running some housekeeping operations and discovered this:

75.81.179.181 : cpe-75-81-179-181.socal.res.rr.com
Post IP Addresses

* Doctor Detroit 75.81.179.181 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
* Real Aptera Lover 75.81.179.181 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]

Registration IP Addresses

* Doctor Detroit 75.81.179.181 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
* Dr. Detroit 75.81.179.181 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]
* Future X Prize Winner 75.81.179.181 [Find Posts by User] [View Other IP Addresses for this User]


"Real Aptera Lover" is quite probably the good Dr. Detroit.

[NeilBlanchard]

I kinda guessed as much by the tone and the content of his posts...

[SEGsby]

I would venture that most folks did, but this does leave little doubt.

[Rembrant]

BTW... Was running some housekeeping operations and discovered this:
I am not comfortable with you using your admin powers to make a point. I also think it was a breach of privacy for you to post the IP's.
Disagreement's cool. Vigorous debate, love it. Flame wars and snooping, not so much.

[Grendal]

Disagreement's cool. Vigorous debate, love it. Flame wars and snooping, not so much.

RAL started the flaming but I agree that it's gotten old. If RAL had just posted another flaming attack and this information was posted as a response I think it would be justified. But to post it after RAL has begun to post with a little more civility and useful information is just inciting more animosity.

Dr. Detroit and Mrs. Dr. Detroit (RAL). They can still be two different people, living in the same house, using the same computer. Just a thought.

[SEGsby]

It's certainly a thought, but highly unlikely that 3 other Troll Accounts share RAL's registration IP address.

@Rembrant: Remember when you first joined here? Snooping is what I do, and I verify if folks are spammers or not. As for flames; truth is the best flame of all. ;) And only the registration IPs were shared. A number of other IPs have been used over time by the good Dr.

Some of them, quite interesting. :)

But it would have been a great disservice to keep the fact of RAL being Dr. Detroit, a secret from everyone. Trolls often exhaust a user name's "credibility" after causing chronic forum drama-- only to do it again and again, under another guise. "Real Aptera Lover" fits this abuse profile.

[aptera1213]

I will say that most sites don't allow, or at least heavily frown on, multiple accounts from the same IP address....it just lends itself to potential problems.

I do wish Aptera would do a couple of things to make this all moot.

One, activate your own forum. It would help aptera greatly and is really quite cheap to do....heck most of your mods will be doing it for free. And these free mods won't be taking time and effort from the making of the 2e. Cheap easy fast, and would allow Aptera to have a bit more control over the site.

Two, have a real and honest and open presence here...none of this hidden member, multiple fake accounts stuff. Open honest adult...it will work wonders.

Gavin

[EV4ALL]

It's certainly a thought, but highly unlikely that 3 other Troll Accounts share RAL's registration IP address.

@Rembrant: Remember when you first joined here? Snooping is what I do, and I verify if folks are spammers or not. As for flames; truth is the best flame of all. ;) And only the registration IPs were shared. A number of other IPs have been used over time by the good Dr.

Some of them, quite interesting. :)

But it would have been a great disservice to keep the fact of RAL being Dr. Detroit, a secret from everyone. Trolls often exhaust a user name's "credibility" after causing chronic forum drama-- only to do it again and again, under another guise. "Real Aptera Lover" fits this abuse profile.

Justify it whichever way makes you feel better about yourself. Simple fact is you came out looking petty and immature after the last exchange so RAL succeeded. If you behaved like an adult and ignored it like most of the rest of us did, RAL would have no power gotten frustrated and left but instead you sunk to his level. You call it troll hunting or public service, some see it as abuse and it alienates people from wanting to contribute which is certainly not the role of an admin. So RAL achieved his goal, one fewer person feels good about the content of this forum as a result.

[aptera1213]

Wow...really? You feel less likely to post or come here because a mod found out that multiple accounts are likely from the same person?

We do that checking at my Mac site. I'm sure almost all real forums do the same. It is an important way to keep sites open and honest.

Now the only issue may be that Segs talked about it here. Me? I would have just deleted the extra accounts and taken the IP down to one address...But then I would be accused of censorship.

As it is, I'm letting two accounts ride on that same IP...they could be husband and wife, or father and son. But history has shown at all my other sites that it is highly likely to be the same person just playing two roles (or more).

And how does that help any site? It doesn't...and often it hurts them.

Gavin

[BryanSR]

Justify it whichever way makes you feel better about yourself. Simple fact is you came out looking petty and immature after the last exchange so RAL succeeded. If you behaved like an adult and ignored it like most of the rest of us did, RAL would have no power gotten frustrated and left but instead you sunk to his level. You call it troll hunting or public service, some see it as abuse and it alienates people from wanting to contribute which is certainly not the role of an admin. So RAL achieved his goal, one fewer person feels good about the content of this forum as a result.
Another TROLL????????
I have been a member here for a LONG TIME & I have NEVER hid my information...

[SEGsby]

It seems odd that you're supporting the actions of an identified, multiple account TROLL-- while attempting to re-frame the role of a mod as somehow more desirable to ignore whatever they do in the forum?

Your statements appear to be outside the realm of what is reasonable. :jumping0001:

Sorry to disagree with you... But please feel free to participate here at whatever level you are comfortable with.

:thumbsup:

Justify it whichever way makes you feel better about yourself. Simple fact is you came out looking petty and immature after the last exchange so RAL succeeded. If you behaved like an adult and ignored it like most of the rest of us did, RAL would have no power gotten frustrated and left but instead you sunk to his level. You call it troll hunting or public service, some see it as abuse and it alienates people from wanting to contribute which is certainly not the role of an admin. So RAL achieved his goal, one fewer person feels good about the content of this forum as a result.

[aptera1213]

I'm not so sure it was a troll post as opposed to just not fully understanding what happens at most forum sites.

All forum sites protect themselves to a certain degree. All sites will make sure posts are mostly on the "up and up."

We have had at my mac site a member make multiple accounts and then start huge post battles...really upset the site till we realized that it was one guy having this huge argument with himself. Other similar things have happened where suddenly the same argument is made by 5 different "people" who ended up one person.

On the internet you are allowed a lot of freedom. You can post under a pseudonym, you can post as numerous people etc etc etc...and you can usually say just about anything and get away with anything. On the other hand, you leave "fingerprints" behind. So most of the time you can get away with anything, but at the same if you get "caught" you really can't suddenly complain.

To keep our server working at max performance we make sure (as best we can) that spam isn't getting through, that we don't have multiple accounts and all that. Do we find all the spam? Mostly. Do we catch all the multiple accounts? Not at all...but we do find some from time to time.

Is there ever a reason for multiple accounts? Sure...and if you need one (forgot the user name or password, have two people on your desktop) just let us know.

But if you are running several accounts to try and "play" the boards, well that is your choice, and you could get away with it...but no complaints if you are found out and the accounts deleted.

That's just how the internets work :)

Gavin

[KarenRei]

For what it's worth, the same person posting as multiple identities is known as "sockpuppetting", and on Wikipedia, it can get you permanently banned.

[randyd]

Ban or not the sockpuppettiers. The Admins here, overall, have been doing a great job. I thank the moderators for culling the herd when necessary.

But I object to this "castigate but do not ban" policy being applied to Dr.D/RAL. If his puppetting has not risen to the point of being banned, then delete the duplicate accounts privately. Posting private information IS an abuse of Admin power.

I request that SeSby's Admin powers be suspended or removed permanently.

[RainCaster]

I post on many boards from multiple IPs- it is the nature of my job to have several IPs on a given day. I always use the same name, so I guess that's OK. Karen- am I a sockpuppet? ;)

As for our admins- they get my vote of confidence. Leave all of them alone- they are doing a good job, and it is a job I surely don't want myself.

[aptera1213]

One account from multiple computers is fine...Probably most of us do that.

:)

I don't think an IP address is personal info...but I will look into our agreement clause everyone signs when they join this forum. If it is not part of it, I will see that the agreement is changed to include this fact. Nobodies IP address is ever "safe". It is on just about every post you make, every email you send. If somebody is truly worried about their IP address being secret, well I suggest that person never get on the internet.

But we have released no personal info that I know of. Home address, email address, etc etc should be as private as the owner wants it to be.

But it is true...as moderators we should strive to be as careful as possible with email address and such.

Sebs doesn't have admin powers. But you are free to PM the Admin with your concerns. He is the only one who can "punish" Sebs or remove his moderator status.

Gavin

[KarenRei]

I post on many boards from multiple IPs- it is the nature of my job to have several IPs on a given day. I always use the same name, so I guess that's OK. Karen- am I a sockpuppet? ;)

No -- you have a single identity. :) You're not trying to pretend that you're multiple people.

[EV4ALL]

It seems odd that you're supporting the actions of an identified, multiple account TROLL-- while attempting to re-frame the role of a mod as somehow more desirable to ignore whatever they do in the forum?

Your statements appear to be outside the realm of what is reasonable. :jumping0001:

Sorry to disagree with you... But please feel free to participate here at whatever level you are comfortable with.

:thumbsup:
Actually I wouldn't have a
problem with the previous solution from aptera1213, just go ahead an without fanfare delete the account, if it went outside the rules of the forum. What I and others took issue with was your approach. When your attempts at mockery fail will my ip info also be posted? Funny how someone who decries adolescent behavior of RAL suddenly resorts to gotcha politicking and sarcasm just because others beg to differ. I was not defending o aligning with a troll just what is the right way and wrong way to behave.

[SEGsby]

No one complained when Mark Twain / Trojan Rabbit's information was posted publicly, so everyone knew without a doubt, he was simply a troll...

I only regret that I didn't catch the RAL / Dr. Detroit connection earlier. It would have saved everyone here, much grief. :)

Save the paranoia and drama for Fox News. :)

BTW, both Dr. Detroit accounts were banned for trollish abuse. I recommend the same for RAL, since they're clearly the same individual.

Thanks very much for your consideration for this request...



Ban or not the sockpuppettiers. The Admins here, overall, have been doing a great job. I thank the moderators for culling the herd when necessary.

But I object to this "castigate but do not ban" policy being applied to Dr.D/RAL. If his puppetting has not risen to the point of being banned, then delete the duplicate accounts privately. Posting private information IS an abuse of Admin power.

I request that SeSby's Admin powers be suspended or removed permanently.

[Rembrant]

@Rembrant: Remember when you first joined here? Snooping is what I do, and I verify if folks are spammers or not. As for flames; truth is the best flame of all. ;) And only the registration IPs were shared. A number of other IPs have been used over time by the good Dr.
Yes I remember what you did when I first joined and still do not aprove of your actions in that case. But that's water under the bridge.
This is not about spammers. If you see spam then you ban the account, block the IP and delete the posts. Ideally this is all transparent to the other users.
In the case of sockpuppets I think you should PM the accounts in question and ask which of the accounts the user wants to keep. It would be a judgement call if they claim to be multiple people sharing a computer. Then delete the extra accounts. Again this should be transparent to the other users.
Posting IP's and telling everyone about it? That's taking advantage of your position to make someone you dissagree with and don't like look bad.
I don't think you should be punished. I just think it needed to be pointed out that I, for one, do not think this is a good way for a Super Moderator to handle the situation.

[RainCaster]

No -- you have a single identity. :) You're not trying to pretend that you're multiple people.
This makes all the voices inside me smile. :rolleye0018:

That said, while I am ~relatively~ certain that SEGsby is correct about Dr. Detroit and RAL... There was a time not too long before I put down my deposit on a Typ1/Typ2e/PigTera that I worked for a large software firm- Fortune 500 material. I am certain that I was not the only one registered on various car and music boards I frequented. We all had the same IP- all 50,000+ of us were routed behind one corporate firewall. Please keep that in mind when investigating these (possible) troll accounts. If you are smart enough, you know the techniques to use, I won't elaborate.

[Scott]

For what it's worth, I am also (as I think I have posted before) not comfortable with the "overt and public" management of accounts and identities. I heartily approve of the traditional management responsibilities and prerogatives. I just wish the manager(s) would keep it discreet and just take care of it quietly.

I didn't approve of it before (with Mark Twain), and I still don't.

If I wasn't a wee tad of a hypocrite, I'd limit my comments to a PM to the moderator/administrative staff, but it seems appropriate to share that this is not a totally isolated opinion.

[evmavin]

If someone wan't multiple accounts and is not spamming then so be it. People like this end up exposing themselves in time and the attention they get only slows that process. Besides, when left alone to do as they please they trip over themselves as we have seen in the past. Attempting to moderate the opinions on the forum is pointless. It's a "forum". Let people
"troll" away and watch what happens to them, control their behavior and they will keep doing what they do.

[SEGsby]

IMHO, Publicly exposing a TROLL is probably the single best way to eliminate them. It appears to have worked for Mark Twain/Trojan Rabbit/Trojan Rabbit33.

Unfortunately, it's the pathological ones that keep coming back... And I apologize for not connecting the dots sooner, and pledge to be even more vigilant in the future.

:jumping0004:

I don't believe in letting rotten, abusive people cause others chronic grief for their own, twisted enjoyment or agenda. Anarchy should never become an acceptable state of affairs for an online forum. This is why I'm so dedicated at removing spammers here. There is a great bunch of EV enthusiasts here, and you guys deserve better consideration than you've admittedly had in the past.

But I think it would also be good have an AUP and post it, so both mods and forum members know more precisely where the lines of reasonable social conduct, actually are. And they should be enforced.

[evmavin]

IMHO, Publicly exposing a TROLL is probably the single best way to eliminate them. It appears to have worked for Mark Twain/Trojan Rabbit/Trojan Rabbit33.

Unfortunately, it's the pathological ones that keep coming back... And I apologize for not connecting the dots sooner, and pledge to be even more vigilant in the future.

:jumping0004:

I don't believe in letting rotten, abusive people cause others chronic grief for their own, twisted enjoyment or agenda. Anarchy should never become an acceptable state of affairs for an online forum. This is why I'm so dedicated at removing spammers here. There is a great bunch of EV enthusiasts here, and you guys deserve better consideration than you've admittedly had in the past.

But I think it would also be good have an AUP and post it, so both mods and forum members know more precisely where the lines of reasonable social conduct, actually are. And they should be enforced.


Other than insulting others which is wrong and has been done on both sides here, I think people on the forum at times over react and over moderate based on their own personal feelings. Anyone that does not like what another is saying can choose to ignore that person, if everyone did they would go away, they would. Personally, if someone from Aptera or elsewhere were posting here under an alias I would let them dig a deep hole. These people are not ruining anything here and engaging them is 50% of the problem. This forum is has been over reactive at times and these so called "trolls" are fed like pigeons. Some of these "trolls" also have very valid points. Things get carried away here but the forum is also less of an Aptera forum now and more about general EV topics, discussing a few posters and boring news on the Aptera, the "trolls" are more interesting than the Aptera news at times.

[NeilBlanchard]

I would hope that we will see someone (or two or three people?) from Aptera be an "official" member(s) of this forum -- they would join under their real name; not an alias. Underhanded/covert posting is the worst thing to do. Overt and above board is the best thing they could do.

This forum is a huge asset to Aptera, and they should engage with us in a real discussion in good faith. If they were to do this, I think they would see a real benefit, and it would do a lot to regain our good will towards the company, and the 2e.

Which will it be, Aptera?

[SEGsby]

@evmavin

Your point is taken, as weak as it is...

But the issue of letting someone chronically abuse a group of people enough that members and mods eventually become negatively biased in any of their decisions, is exactly what's occurred. If the perpetrator were stopped earlier, we would not be discussing the end results of their actions, now.

The fact is, you are essentially authorizing a TROLLs destructive behavior to continue, knowingly. You've advocated this approach over and over and over, and it gets the forum nowhere closer to resolving these issues whenever they come up.

Allowing known TROLLs to reach this level of unfettered, unmoderated participation, is also a form of abuse, IMHO.

Just how many holes are you willing to let Dr. Detroit / RAL dig? As many as he wants, under as many user accounts as he pleases, so he can keep attacking forum members anytime he wants??? I think that is an unacceptable "solution" to the problem that will cause more harm than good; from the immediate, to the long term.

Simply put; I have to strongly disagree with you. It's the lack of enforcement that is the core problem. Your position only leads to chaos and anarchy, as this discussion has become witness to.

@neilblanchard

I understand your appeal to reason, but Team B hasn't historically shown anything but contempt for this forum, or worse-- fans of their vehicle. They've preferred to work in the shadows; pretended to be multiple people, while burning thru their credibility as they've abused, harassed and attacked forum members here.

How much more official of a "Team B" policy do you need proof of? :(

[KarenRei]

This forum is a huge asset to Aptera, and they should engage with us in a real discussion in good faith. If they were to do this, I think they would see a real benefit, and it would do a lot to regain our good will towards the company, and the 2e.

Perhaps they should hire a Chief Marketing Officer. I hear they're supposed to be good at dealing with customers.

[palmer_md]

HaHa. Good one.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi Karen,

Perhaps they should hire a Chief Marketing Officer. I hear they're supposed to be good at dealing with customers.

Touché!

[aptera1213]

Yes...ouch...

Really I have said it before...They need to do two things that cost almost NO MONEY...

Have a real, honest, open presence here....they don't have to post everyday or anything like that...but having an account of "Aptera marketing", "Emily from Aptera", "The man behind the curtain at Aptera"...whatever...but a real voice heard every once in a while will help...and no hidden voice...a real "named" voice.

Two...start their freakin' forum site at Aptera.com....it costs nothing...heck you, like here, get FREE mods who do most of the work (no insult to ADMIN...he is a great guy...but really the day to day "grunt" work at any forum is usually done by unpaid "fans")...

Should everyone abandon this site?? heck no....a great site and great people...it could work great in conjunction** with an Official Aptera Forum...but it will help Aptera "shape" the conversation...which will be good for Aptera...

why they haven't done those two SIMPLE, CHEAP things is surprising.

Gavin


**am i the only person who can't write conjunction with out going "conjunction junction what's your function" in my head for the next hour or so?

[Rembrant]

Have a real, honest, open presence here.

This is even funnier than Karens post.

[ChicoBob]

.. conjunction junction what's your function.. Now it's running in circles thru my head.

[randyd]

But the issue of letting someone chronically abuse a group of people enough that members and mods eventually become negatively biased in any of their decisions, is exactly what's occurred.

You don't get it yet, SEGsby. Let me try again.

You abused your moderator privileges by using private information to discredit a forum member. If you had privately dealt with the troll, without letting your personal dislike for the member affect your public behavior, I would not be admonishing you.

Get it now?

Protecting the forum from trolls is not what I and others are objecting to.

If the perpetrator were stopped earlier, we would not be discussing the end results of their actions, now.

If the troll had been admonished privately, and the duplicate accounts, if that's what they actually were, deleted, we would not be discussing the end results of your actions now.

It's the lack of enforcement that is the core problem.

You may have a point, there. But my request of you, as a Moderator, is to keep your emotionals in check when doing Moderator things. Act fairly and responsibly, even when the miscreants "don't deserve it." Rise above the juvenile behavior of trolls and other trying to destroy the forum, please.

Thank you.

[KarenRei]

For what it's worth, on Wikipedia, when people sockpuppet, they are exposed publicly for it (in *addition* to being banned)

I really don't see the issue. If you want anonymity, that should be your right.... *until* you start pulling stunts like sockpuppeting and the like. I have no problem with people connecting from multiple IPs, or connecting through proxies, or whatnot. Just don't pretend to be multiple people who second each other's statements.

[NeilBlanchard]

I am all for credibility and openness -- I dislike anonymity because it lets people hide from claiming their words. Whoever RAL is (someone from Aptera, or someone not from Aptera) they should realize that they are hurting Aptera.

Anonymity hurts credibility. And if we know who someone is, then we know that they will have to own to their words.

[evmavin]

For what it's worth, on Wikipedia, when people sockpuppet, they are exposed publicly for it (in *addition* to being banned)

I really don't see the issue. If you want anonymity, that should be your right.... *until* you start pulling stunts like sockpuppeting and the like. I have no problem with people connecting from multiple IPs, or connecting through proxies, or whatnot. Just don't pretend to be multiple people who second each other's statements.


What about hand puppets on astroturf with one two IPs? What do you do with them? Where do we draw the line?

[JustWilliam]

I am SO confused. I understand disappointment when a Mod seems to be trying to discredit or embarrass a LEGITIMATE forum member, but this really doesn't seem to be the case in this instance.

None of us are full time game show hosts to my knowledge. To ask anyone (Mod or otherwise) to be emotionless in order to somehow take a "high road" is a dead end. When a "member" is sock-puppeting, and generally abusing his or her forum privileges and peers, I personally WANT TO KNOW. If I DO know, I know WHEN to hold my emotions in check appropriately.

When I stopped lurking and started interacting here, I had similar feelings for one of the Mods whom I thought displayed "behavior unbecoming" of his/her position. We didn't seem to agree on anything, but I was happy and humbled to be told by fellow members that the argument was useless, ugly, and disruptive. I still disagree with that Mod often, but I have learned to deeply appreciate and respect the valuable intelligence, dedication, and even STYLE consistently and freely given to ALL of us. That Mod makes this forum as amazing as it is.

If I may offer my most humble opinion- Agree to disagree with SEGSby for now. Remember what unites you here. Realize that someone might very well "get" what you are saying, but simply disagree do to their personal perspective and level of responsibility here. You seem to have great empathy and feelings for what could be perceived as "the enemy" here, and it's an admirable quality indeed. Use those skills (gifts?) to play "devil's advocate" and I'd wager that you will find the experience intellectually AND emotionally rewarding. We ARE blessed with awesome Mods.

Thanks for your consideration.

Peace,
William

[JustWilliam]

Wow my Mavin! With a refinement of those basic rules, we could very well wind up with a sport like CRICKET!

<grins and runs like hell>

[SEGsby]

There are indeed, many amazing things one can do with a mallet... :)

[SEGsby]

You don't get it yet, SEGsby. Let me try again.

You abused your moderator privileges by using private information to discredit a forum member. If you had privately dealt with the troll, without letting your personal dislike for the member affect your public behavior, I would not be admonishing you.

Get it now?


Nope.

Did you ever look up what Dr. D's and RAL's 75.81.179.181 registration address was, before you bothered to publicly chide someone over posting it?

Bet you didn't...

But I did before posting it, and it's simply for a cable holding company, which provides internet access. This IP number, by itself, does not reveal any personal information about the home or work address of the person or persons in question.

http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/company.cfm?company=680961

Now, others have suggested I privately take care of the TROLL behind closed doors, but I prefer to not work in the shadows. IMHO, the best way to deal with the information that RAL was also Dr. Detroit, was to share it for all, who may or may not have been the victims of RAL's abusive participation here, and accompanied by sufficient evidence of sockpuppeting and TROLLing.

Not providing proof to anyone, or working in secret, isn't how I operate-- sorry.

Unfortunately, you appear to see things from a more sinister perspective, but that's your personal choice; not mine. :)

Next case... :fighting0027:

[KarenRei]

Basically, I see SEGsby playing by Wikipedia rules. Heck, wikipedia outright posts your IP on every post for everyone to see if you're not logged in. Anything you do wrong is met with public disclosure. Is Wikipedia somehow evil?

I guess different sites have different standards.

[Antjel]

I would hope that we will see someone (or two or three people?) from Aptera be an "official" member(s) of this forum -- they would join under their real name; not an alias. Underhanded/covert posting is the worst thing to do. Overt and above board is the best thing they could do.

This forum is a huge asset to Aptera, and they should engage with us in a real discussion in good faith. If they were to do this, I think they would see a real benefit, and it would do a lot to regain our good will towards the company, and the 2e.

Which will it be, Aptera?

:doublethumbs: :doublethumbs: :doublethumbs:

[JustWilliam]

Basically, I see SEGsby playing by Wikipedia rules. Heck, wikipedia outright posts your IP on every post for everyone to see if you're not logged in. Anything you do wrong is met with public disclosure. Is Wikipedia somehow evil?

I guess different sites have different standards.

Oh Karen! You have such efficiency with words and facts. Well done you.