Epic EVs: Torq and Amp:

[KarenRei]

Not much info about them, but Autoblog Green just ran an article summing up the news that's out there about them:

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/07/18/aptera-co-founder-going-epic-with-new-electric-line-up-hiring-h/1#c29371949

Basically, they're already hiring employees for making electric watercraft and prepping to make two land EVs:

Torq: A ~$35k open two-seat trike with a ridiculous hp-to-weight ratio and 24-30kWh battery pack.
Amp: A ~$22k offroader with an aggressive "dune buggy" styling with 10" clearance, independent suspension, 50mph top speed, and 60 miles range (14.4kWh).

Thoughts? I'll have to see how it progresses from prototype to sale product, but it looks like a nice start. Unlike most "also-rans", they seem to be targeting EV niches that aren't already filled.

[aptera1213]

The video is nice...good to see Chris out selling to the media...he has always done that well.

The Torq reminds me some of the VW GX3 that I loved...I would like it a bit thinner and sleeker like the GX3...but I guess they have to fit all those batteries somewhere...

It would make a fun weekend car...a few years ago I would have jumped on it...but now I'm pretty set on getting a Fiat 500 EV in a couple of years, so buying a 35k fun car as a "transition" car is just not in the books for me.

So I will keep with either getting the LEAF as my transition car, or a Fiat 500 2 cylinder.

Gavin

[JustWilliam]

I think they're both wonderful. The Torq in particular looks to provide amazing performance figures for it's intended price. I hope a more practical windscreen is in the works as an option. A top to keep the elements at bay is tough on a door less vehicle, but it could then appeal to a much larger audience.

What impresses me most is how much Chris learned from the Aptera debacle. He quickly developed new vehicles that are true to their functions, and announced them as production workers were being hired and trained to build them in the next quarter. Amazing.

I'll bet he sells them as quickly as they are built. Well done Chris.

[G-Jet]

What JustWilliam said. Well done Chris.

G

[aptera1213]

I wonder two things:

Will there be these vehicles for sale before we see an Aptera in a customers hands?

And I wonder if Chris has approached best buy yet to see if they will carry them at select locations?

Gavin

[rayfellow]

I wonder two things:

Will there be these vehicles for sale before we see an Aptera in a customers hands?

And I wonder if Chris has approached best buy yet to see if they will carry them at select locations?

Gavin
What goes around - comes around. The question comes back (again.. again) to how the Aptera Board of Directors decided to let this man -and Steve- go, in favor of the PW group? I could better understand the shift, if there was no other option. The story we are told is that Steve picked PW to replace himself, and then at some point (the showdown board meeting) had a change of mind.

Anyway, and 20/20 hindsight, we see that the best talent, engineers, management and entrepreneurial drive was in place with team A.

I still feel that the Aptera design is a great one for a commute (high speed freeway) vehicle. That design will prevail.

[KarenRei]

Will there be these vehicles for sale before we see an Aptera in a customers hands?

I'd bet dollars to donuts you will. Partnering with another manufacturer that needs more stuff to build and sell was a strange choice for Aptera, since they already had an in-house composite shop with years of experience building their particular vehicles, at a solid price point... but for a new startup looking for a quick ramp, partnering with such a manufacturer seems a good way to go about it without having to raise a ton of capital. This looks like a relatively simple design (same sort of approach used for the Ariel Atom, which was used for the base of the obscenely fast Wrightspeed X1), and I imagine anyone from the old Aptera team would rather get their teeth drilled than participate in "redesign after redesign" again. So I fully expect to see them in consumer hands well before Aptera -- if Aptera ever does get any in consumer hands.

Perhaps they'll next make one enclosed in an aeroshell, pretty please? :)

[Grendal]

Perhaps they'll next make one enclosed in an aeroshell, pretty please? :)

And call it the Epic-tera. :wavey: Congrats, Chris.

[aptera1213]

Yeah, I could easily see a Torq2 that suddenly looks very Aptera-ish...it's not like Chris isn't familiar with the shape and the composites and how to make the molds.

I'm sure any non compete clause will either be void after they sell the Torq for a year or so...or will be moot due to one or the other company not producing vehicles.

Gavin

Gavin

[drivin98]

And call it the Epic-tera. :wavey: Congrats, Chris.

...or EpicTerra...

Nice ATV, that's for sure. Think the Torq shows promise but needs to spend some quality time with Jason Hill or some other designer.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs100.ash2/38315_137176642980046_137174886313555_234588_57867 68_n.jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs100.ash2/38315_137176646313379_137174886313555_234589_77930 80_n.jpg

[JustWilliam]

I've been thinking about these vehicles and their VERY specific missions...

Is it all niche strategy, or is Chris/Epic bound by some "non compete" clause with Aptera?

Karen is absolutely correct- the Torq is an electric T-Rex or Atom competitor at a price that undercuts both in ICE form. They WILL sell at that price if only in relatively small numbers.

Imagine the same basic principals, but with a less performance biased (and more affordable) drive train and canopy type aero management and weather protection? Sounds more like the original Aptera than the SO-1 has shown itself to be.

Regardless, you have to hand it to Chris and his partners for actually producing a salable product in record time. Unless of course they don't.

[palmer_md]

http://www.ksla.com/global/category.asp?c=151146&clipId=&topVideoCatNo=105761&topVideoCatNoB=105817&topVideoCatNoC=107380&topVideoCatNoD=145675&topVideoCatNoE=160161&autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=4951698&flvUri=&partnerclipid=

[KarenRei]

I've been thinking about these vehicles and their VERY specific missions...

Is it all niche strategy, or is Chris/Epic bound by some "non compete" clause with Aptera?

Karen is absolutely correct- the Torq is an electric T-Rex or Atom competitor at a price that undercuts both in ICE form. They WILL sell at that price if only in relatively small numbers.

Imagine the same basic principals, but with a less performance biased (and more affordable) drive train and canopy type aero management and weather protection? Sounds more like the original Aptera than the SO-1 has shown itself to be.

Regardless, you have to hand it to Chris and his partners for actually producing a salable product in record time. Unless of course they don't.


Remember the early days of Aptera, when everyone was driven, focused on the finish line, and the small team made one huge advancement after another in record time? I'm seeing shades of that again. Only this time, they're starting with lessons learned, connections made, etc. More like an existing manufacturer putting out a new model than a new team starting from scratch.

[aptera1213]

I wonder how the Torq would have done at the Xprize...it clearly would be the fastest car there....

I imagine they would have to add a capsule/canopy like the TW4XP to reduce wind/drag.

Oh well, the Torq really isn't made for the Xprize...it is made for fun and speed...

Gavin

[Grendal]

I wonder how the Torq would have done at the Xprize...it clearly would be the fastest car there....

I imagine they would have to add a capsule/canopy like the TW4XP to reduce wind/drag.

Oh well, the Torq really isn't made for the Xprize...it is made for fun and speed...

Gavin

Oh the irony if the Torq went to the X-prize and beat the Aptera! Not gonna happen...didn't happen...But...:evilgrin0013:

[Rembrant]

Remember the early days of Aptera, when everyone was driven, focused on the finish line, and the small team made one huge advancement after another in record time? I'm seeing shades of that again. Only this time, they're starting with lessons learned, connections made, etc. More like an existing manufacturer putting out a new model than a new team starting from scratch.
And just like the early days of Aptera there is no independent confirmation of the claims made.
Consider the early claims for Aptera vs their performance in the X Prize. I know, I know, it's the redesign and it's all Pauls fault.

[aptera1213]

Mmmm, yes we never did get independent verification of the PP6 range and all that.

We really don't know much about the Torq and Amp just yet, but I bet we will soon enough...

Any quesses...Torq before Christmas, before Thanksgiving, before Halloween?

I imagine they will have some in customers hands before 2010 is through...

Should be interesting to see...Shaped like the Atom, big pack...0-60 in under 6 seconds? Under 5? Under 4?!?!?

It isn't a hyper-miler car

Gavin

[KarenRei]

Going from the very rough numbers at hand, I'd think around 4.

[JustWilliam]

More Photos!

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/24/epic-torq-and-amp-photo-bomb-yields-revealing-details/

[Matthijs]

The China version if you want to do your own conversion:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/271743786/800CC_GO_KART_800CC_BUGGY_800CC_4X4_GO_Cart_TKG800 _2_.html

Sold to you by this lovely lady:

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1971/originalix.jpg

:jumping0001:

[palmer_md]

gotta love the see through center console....

http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2010/08/epic-ev-torq-15-1282332082.jpg

http://green.autoblog.com/photos/epic-ev-torq/#3283273

[chucho]

The China version if you want to do your own conversion:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/271743786/800CC_GO_KART_800CC_BUGGY_800CC_4X4_GO_Cart_TKG800 _2_.html

The AMP happens to be a $22K EV ‘by’ Epic, but actually converted from a $4K 800CC Chinese Go Kart?

As a reminder, some quotes from the “Chinagate” thread (http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4150):

could anyone here point to a single "good" made in China car?

there is no way I would buy any product made in China as ultimately it ends up as junk.

Please, for the love of God, no more Chinese-made vehicles. I'll pay MORE for a vehicle made in this country.

They go to China and I'm out for sure- bad idea!

Please name a reasonable quality product produced in China

I only want to hear about Aptera putting Californians to work. I would settle for Aptera putting any US citizens back to work. "Made in China" is a complete turn off. I definitely will not put a deposit down or purchase if China is chosen.


The autobloggreen article requires clarification from Epic. Either the AMP is really a chinese Go Kart, or the design/concept was quickly (very quickly actually) 'stolen' by either the nice chinese lady referenced by Matthijs or by http://www.tuokaimoto.com/


-Chucho

ps. What about the Torq? Is this an Epic design? Or an Epic conversion of another chinese car?

[JustWilliam]

The AMP happens to be a $22K EV ‘by’ Epic, but actually converted from a $4K 800CC Chinese Go Kart?

As a reminder, some quotes from the “Chinagate” thread (http://apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4150):














The autobloggreen article requires clarification from Epic. Either the AMP is really a chinese Go Kart, or the design/concept was quickly (very quickly actually) 'stolen' by either the nice chinese lady referenced by Matthijs or by http://www.tuokaimoto.com/


-Chucho

ps. What about the Torq? Is this an Epic design? Or an Epic conversion of another chinese car?
I understand your point, or what I believe to be your point! It is difficult and expensive for Americans in general to completely boycott Chinese products or components.

But in the spirit of moderation, I don't personally think you are successfully questioning or debating the posts or poster's opinions that you reference.

I'd prefer 100% American content and labor, but I am also encouraged that Chris Anthony and Epic seem to have learned valuable lessons from the Aptera experience and the poor business decisions made by it's current management. I believe that Chris and Epic will produce vehicles, sell them, and employ fellow Americans before Aptera does, and in a far shorter time frame with a far smaller budget. But neither company has sold a vehicle to a customer at this point in time, and we all have to wait for verifiable or trustworthy evidence of a sale to do more than speculate to the best of our knowledge and abilities.

Because of Matthijs's post, I will agree with you that the Epic Amp is based on a Chinese vehicle. But I object to you using the information to present a "laundry list" of forum members to dispute or accuse.

Would you care to clarify or further support your post?

Peace,
William

[Grendal]

I don't want to claim to speak for JustWilliam but I think the point he's trying to make is: are you trying to say we're hypocrites for saying we like Chris and Epic? If so, the major difference is, as far as I am aware, that no one here has put a deposit down on either of Epic's new vehicles. They're both interesting BEV niche vehicles but they are not the Aptera. And I haven't seen any mis-management yet from Chris and Epic that is rampant at Aptera. :character0009: Buying a shell from a Chinese manufacturer at this point does not make me want to dismiss Chris's vehicle. If the Aptera came from a Chinese factory at this point I'd suspect the current management motivations and vision.

[aptera1213]

Well it's not like Epic is buying a 3 thousand dollar Chinese dune buggy and bringing it to the states and selling it for 20 thousand...

It appears Epic might be buying a 2 thousand dollar Chinese frame and then bringing it to America and having US employees put in batteries, extra support, wiring, battery management etc etc.

As for the Torq...no idea where the frame is made...but the Epic factory for putting it all together is in the US.

Gavin

[chucho]

Well it's not like Epic is buying a 3 thousand dollar Chinese dune buggy and bringing it to the states and selling it for 20 thousand...


Well, it is. Epic is buying a $3K Chinese dune buggy. And they are reselling it for $22K. But I never meant Epic was making a $17k profit.


It appears Epic might be buying a 2 thousand dollar Chinese frame and then bringing it to America and having US employees put in batteries, extra support, wiring, battery management etc etc.

Epic appears to not just be buying the frame. They appear to be buying the whole dune buggy. Please, compare the pictures side-by-side:

Same frame, same tires, same wheels, same fenders, same headlights, same console, same mirrors, same color!!

Epic seems to be just pimping a Chinese dune buggy. It is not Epic's original design, neither an Epic original prototype. Epic did design the battery system and related components, added a few off-road off-the-shelf parts like shocks and seats and the steering wheel. And put "EPIC" stickers and labels. Are there any copyright laws being violated here? Is it wrong when Chinese copy our designs, but ok the other way around?

As the original autobloggreen articles says, this is a photo bomb but no one in this forum has comments about it?

Let's change names for a minute, let's assume that it was Aptera that introduces the Amp but then a reporter/blogger finds out that the Amp is not really an Aptera vehicle but a Chinese dune buggy. What would have been the reaction of this forum?


-Chucho

[Grendal]

Epic appears to not just be buying the frame. They appear to be buying the whole dune buggy. Please, compare the pictures side-by-side:

Same frame, same tires, same wheels, same fenders, same headlights, same console, same mirrors, same color!!

Epic seems to be just pimping a Chinese dune buggy. It is not Epic's original design, neither an Epic original prototype. Epic did design the battery system and related components, added a few off-road off-the-shelf parts like shocks and seats and the steering wheel. And put "EPIC" stickers and labels. Are there any copyright laws being violated here? Is it wrong when Chinese copy our designs, but ok the other way around?

As the original autobloggreen articles says, this is a photo bomb but no one in this forum has comments about it?

Let's change names for a minute, let's assume that it was Aptera that introduces the Amp but then a reporter/blogger finds out that the Amp is not really an Aptera vehicle but a Chinese dune buggy. What would have been the reaction of this forum?


-Chucho

IF we were all buying the AMP and Chris/Epic had made promises then we probably would be calling him on it. But this isn't the AMP forum and the AMP isn't the Aptera.

[drivin98]

Where do you get $22,000 from? I wasn't aware a price had been released.

While personally, I'd prefer if the whole thing was made in the US, I'd also like to be able to afford one, so having a chassis from China is not necessarily bad.

The suspension looks like it's been upgraded as well as the steering wheel. Not sure how much I'd trust the gearbox and wish they had of just gone for the single speed electric goodness.

Still, looking forward to seeing some video and reading some reviews.

[aptera1213]

Chinese scooters are often bought and rebranded for the states...Heck cars are rebranded going from market to market too...

Nothing illegal or even unethical.

As for Chinese stuff...Yeah, currently I don't love it...I wouldn't buy a Chinese scooter today...In 10 years, probably. That's how it works....and i don't worry about the frame or stuff like that, it is the engines and spare parts I worry about...

Now in the 50's, made in Japan meant it was junk that would break...10 years later that all changed. Made in Taiwan...was junk...now they make some of the best scooters out there...Made in South Korea...from junk to great cars in 10 years. The same will happen in China.

I know a couple of people who deal in making Scooters...you just have to keep on the builders while the mind set changes...so they spend a lot of time in China getting the manufacturing people to understand you have to make a long term commitment to making a product...and make extra parts too...In China they will make something (yes usually a copy of somebody else's work) for a few months and then totally retool to make something else for a few months...so there is no continuity...and usually no spare parts if some thing breaks...that will change. But it usually takes...well about 10 years...give or take...

Guess I am just more use to seeing re-branded scooters...Genuine Scooters of Chicago gets their scooters from India and Taiwan. Carter Bros gets theirs ATVs and Scooters from Taiwan. Baron Motorcycles gets all their scooters and motorcycles from main land China. It is not stealing their designs, it is buying their stuff and selling it here...

But that is actually very different than with the Amp...the Amp is a frame and wheels that gets a whole new power source and seats and such...a much bigger remake.

And perhaps over time Epic will make the frames too...but maybe not...affordable bodies are sometimes nice to get...you would be surprised where many of the parts and more were really made on your American car or motorcycle.

That said, no real interest in either product...the Amp is useless to me as I am a city driver, the Torq is more interesting, but like the Aptera I don't like the width..my garage door is only 91" wide...86" wheel width is just cutting it too close.

Gavin

[chucho]

IF we were all buying the AMP and Chris/Epic had made promises then we probably would be calling him on it. But this isn't the AMP forum and the AMP isn't the Aptera.

This is funny. So, is it safe to assume that all posters in this forum are buying an Aptera, therefore claiming the right to criticize current Management? A lot of posters (even Moderators) have clearly stated they are not buying an Aptera, but keep posting and keep being Moderators and keep criticizing. This has become more like an Anti-Aptera forum!

It is also funny how handy the technique of saying "this is not the XX forum" or "this is not the xx thread" comes when trying to deviate the attention from uncomfortable topics.


-Chucho

[chucho]

Chinese scooters are often bought and rebranded for the states...Heck cars are rebranded going from market to market too...

Nothing illegal or even unethical.

As for Chinese stuff...Yeah, currently I don't love it...I wouldn't buy a Chinese scooter today...In 10 years, probably. That's how it works....and i don't worry about the frame or stuff like that, it is the engines and spare parts I worry about...

Now in the 50's, made in Japan meant it was junk that would break...10 years later that all changed. Made in Taiwan...was junk...now they make some of the best scooters out there...Made in South Korea...from junk to great cars in 10 years. The same will happen in China.

I know a couple of people who deal in making Scooters...you just have to keep on the builders while the mind set changes...so they spend a lot of time in China getting the manufacturing people to understand you have to make a long term commitment to making a product...and make extra parts too...In China they will make something (yes usually a copy of somebody else's work) for a few months and then totally retool to make something else for a few months...so there is no continuity...and usually no spare parts if some thing breaks...that will change. But it usually takes...well about 10 years...give or take...

Guess I am just more use to seeing re-branded scooters...Genuine Scooters of Chicago gets their scooters from India and Taiwan. Carter Bros gets theirs ATVs and Scooters from Taiwan. Baron Motorcycles gets all their scooters and motorcycles from main land China. It is not stealing their designs, it is buying their stuff and selling it here...

But that is actually very different than with the Amp...the Amp is a frame and wheels that gets a whole new power source and seats and such...a much bigger remake.

And perhaps over time Epic will make the frames too...but maybe not...affordable bodies are sometimes nice to get...you would be surprised where many of the parts and more were really made on your American car or motorcycle.

That said, no real interest in either product...the Amp is useless to me as I am a city driver, the Torq is more interesting, but like the Aptera I don't like the width..my garage door is only 91" wide...86" wheel width is just cutting it too close.

Gavin

I agree with you in several aspects here.

I remember last century (1997) when the wife and I were about to buy a Honda CRV. The first year this model came to the States. The wife was distracted by a Salesman that offered a Kia Sportage with a price a few thousand dollars cheaper than the CRV. I, not knowing much about Kia and not really comfortable with a Korean car told the salesman we were not interested. But my cousin bought one.

Ten years later the CRV was still running great but we decided to sell it and buy a newer car. While my cousin was still driving the Sportage!

I am not interested in neither the Torq (fugly!) nor the Amp (unpractical!). Why pay $22k for an electric ATV when you can get a Yamaha Banshee fully loaded and cheaper? What do you do when you ran out of charge in the middle of a 80-mile off-road trip in Baja?

At the end, I just wanted to point out the fact that autobloggreen called the Amp pictures a ‘photo bomb’ and no one in this forum reacted to it.


-Chucho

[chucho]

Where do you get $22,000 from? I wasn't aware a price had been released.

See the first entry in this thread.


-Chucho

[JustWilliam]

At the end, I just wanted to point out the fact that autobloggreen called the Amp pictures a ‘photo bomb’ and no one in this forum reacted to it.


-Chucho
Why WOULD any one react to it? They dropped a bunch of photos, aka a "photo bomb".

[Grendal]

This is funny. So, is it safe to assume that all posters in this forum are buying an Aptera, therefore claiming the right to criticize current Management? A lot of posters (even Moderators) have clearly stated they are not buying an Aptera, but keep posting and keep being Moderators and keep criticizing. This has become more like an Anti-Aptera forum!

It is also funny how handy the technique of saying "this is not the XX forum" or "this is not the xx thread" comes when trying to deviate the attention from uncomfortable topics.

-Chucho

I see a lot of criticism of current Aptera management and a lot of dis-satisfaction with the S0-1. I think the criticism is pretty justified considering all the promises made and broken. I also think that most here are hopeful that the Aptera makes it into production. If that happens I personally hope to own one someday if it is even close to the original vision.

As for the AMP and the Torq - I'm not interested. That's why I don't care where Chris gets the AMP body from. As far as I am aware Chris hasn't lied to anyone so what is there to call him on? Am I supposed to be outraged over a vehicle I'm not interested in?