Aptera's a loser of X-Prize

[Rhodomel]

Aptera was not even mentioned in the news article here about the humble winners here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39202585/ns/technology_and_science/

So let's bet when will Aptera file for bankruptcy.

[Schrodinger]

Nice summary article if you haven't been following the prize. Lots of love shown to the VLC, with the Wave2 and E-Tracer more of a post script. A pity, in that I'd really like to know more about team Li-Ion.

Also disappointing is that the article sources most of it's data from the various teams: "The company says it can get 150 miles..."

The primary draw to this competition, for me, was that we would have independently validated performance data, and wouldn't have to take the companies word for it.

Maybe after the announcement ceremony we'll finally get access to the data?

[virtualeric]

That article is "unofficial".

Xprize wanted complete control of this news story telling teams to zip it until the money was released.

It appears one free-lancer didn't share that (probably along with the rest of main-stream media) so Ronald Ahrens, who penned the news, gave this to NYT LOOOONG before this announcement. Yesterday if not earlier.

I started a thread about that.
http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4550

Anyone who has followed PIAXP can conclude LiIon had the best chance -- they beat Aptera at every turn, had highest MPGe in their class, edged out Raceabout in the tie-breaker race, had better lateral G numbers than the 3-wheelers (just a guess on my part), and simply were kicking A.

Anyone that was there at PIAXP knew that because many of the teams were talking about how well LiIon was doing. When you hit 180+ MPGe in a four-seater...people are going to talk about that.

[virtualeric]

...Lots of love shown to the VLC, with the Wave2 and E-Tracer more of a post script. A pity, in that I'd really like to know more about team Li-Ion.

Maybe after the announcement ceremony we'll finally get access to the data?I expect PIAXP will release more data -- they better or the teams will do it for them.

They didn't release data because they wanted as much control as possible and didn't want anyone spoiling the news. Too late PIAXP. What comes around goes around I guess.

I'm still in shock someone decided to scoop them. But at the same time I'm not surprised. PIAXP bullied teams (whether they believe it or not) at every turn, changing/adding rules on the fly, keeping teams in the dark, and exhibiting some major "control" and "listening" issues, etc. These problems manifested throughout the Xprize per teams that I talked to (I talked to everyone).

The resounding consensus among teams was the general lack of knowledge of Xprize management (in terms of executing events and overall competition). An easy fault to dismiss given the ground-breaking never-been -done realities of putting on a competition like Xprize.

However, that forgiveness was quickly eroded by their actions -- resistant to input, to collaboration, to any advice, and a prideful arrogance that even though they didn't know what they were doing (in some areas, in others they were exemplary), they certainly didn't want or seek any advice on how to do things better.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.
Li-Ion had a great story to tell. When I get caught up on my stuff, I'll get back to my Xprize blog and to the individual team interviews.

Li-Ion did what they did with a fraction of Aptera's manpower and budget. They had racing experience and kept their eye on the ball. The article states the basics of their platform and is very informative. What it didn't have time to do was talk about how they temporarily borrowed a motor controller from Zap to survive, how they've managed to win using an older motor controller, used batteries scavenged off of idle Li-Ion converted production cars, aftermarket honda suspension and other aftermarket parts, and the story goes on....

Think about one of the main article points: racing design/construction/experience is what won the Xprize in each category. Whatever skills/practices racing people possess, those prevailed in this competition.

I over-simplify and say they're better at keeping their eye on the ball. They're more experienced at designing for handling, weight, and efficiency simply because they've done it over and over and over. They're better at speeding up the clock when evolving a vehicle (shorter development cycle) and throughout development, execution, and competition, they keep their eye on the ball -- being proactive in every way before and during "showtime" by minimizing setbacks, maximizing performance, and obsessing over the devils in the details.

It was inspiring to be around and certainly one of the things I brought home with me. We could all be inspired by meeting these teams. I wish there were a grass-roots national Xprize tour where Americans could get their hands on these incredible vehicles and interface with the amazing and inspiring individuals behind them...it would go a long way toward planting the seed of efficiency into the general public.

[lapwing]

Aptera was not even mentioned in the news article here about the humble winners here:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39202585/ns/technology_and_science/

So let's bet when will Aptera file for bankruptcy.

I really dislike the current upper management of Aptera. The top guy sucks!

But do I think we should be talking about "Aftera"?

Absolutely Not!
And here's why.
So I was looking at the official X prise MPG figures for the final round, and I find that Aptera scored 164.3mpg equivelent.

Among the cars I would want to own, only two others are close, Lion motors Wave, 171.4mpg -e and RaceAbout at 142.9 mpg-e.

As much as I love the Edison 2 design, the combustion engine on the edge, barely making it to 100mpg, (95.6-108mpg) with very little possibility of production, doesn't cut it for me. (had Edison gone electric, I feel they still could have won, and I have no doubt they would have done been the best at everything, and I would be standing in line.

But given what we have out there of the three top scorers in the electrics, I would most want to own the Aptera.

The pack on the RaceAbout is to big and expensive, and too $100 000 Tesla like.

By comparison the Lion and the Aptera are right in the "zone" of perfect. Yes even the SO-1 "piglet".

I sure hope both go into production.

[virtualeric]

...had Edison gone electric, I feel they still could have won, and I have no doubt they would have done been the best at everything, and I would be standing in line.Better get in line then, they're making an electric this fall for R&D and as "production bait" for a company that originally asked a major US manufacturer to bring them an electric platform for mass production. That company didn't come through and Edison2 sees an opportunity.

The fact that Aptera "says" they want to build their cars doesn't mean they'll get money to do it, and that doesn't make them any more viable than Edison2. Best case scenario for Aptera still looks like limited production.

IMHO, Edison2 is more viable because it's more affordable to build and is designed to be built in giant numbers. It'll be more affordable because the platform is simpler, lighter, cheaper to build. And most likely it'll be a lot more efficient.

Regarding real efficiency data, Edison2 can duplicate Xprize tests through third parties and generate that data. They duplicated Argonne numbers and those numbers were used in place of Argonne because GM engineers blew the Edison2 engines at coastdown (downshifting at redline) I suspect they will do the same with a built electric and believe their electric car numbers will surprise a lot of people.

Make no mistake: Edison2 leaders are more focused, more committed, more passionate, and more capable than the two paycheck-drawing employees of Aptera, PW and MM.

My prediction is Aptera will fade in the next 5 years and Edison2 will prevail. I'm bookmarking this post so I can say "I told you so" when it happens. It's already happening...Aptera wasn't even mentioned in the NYT article. Professional bias? No doubt. But mark my words, that small action is the first one and only the beginning of the dismissal, or at least the insignificance, that will become Aptera.

[jcodeglia]

Another article that at least mentions Aptera, barely.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1049410_breaking-aptera-loses-automotive-x-prize-li-ion-motors-triumphant

"While press releases from California-based Aptera Motors would have anyone believe their Aptera 2e was the best vehicle at the event, those responsible for choosing the winner disagreed."

And at the end of the article: "As for Aptera? WIth time to lick its wounds, expect the company to return to issuing hopeful statements about its ability to revolutionize the auto world, one day."

[jcodeglia]

ZAP is TwitPic-ing a few photos: http://twitpic.com/photos/ZAPalias

[lapwing]

................

My prediction is Aptera will fade in the next 5 years and Edison2 will prevail. I'm bookmarking this post so I can say "I told you so" when it happens. It's already happening...Aptera wasn't even mentioned in the NYT article. Professional bias? No doubt. But mark my words, that small action is the first one and only the beginning of the dismissal, or at least the insignificance, that will become Aptera.

I'll put down a couple of thousand dollars deposit on an electric Edison - in a heart beat.

[virtualeric]

My prediction is Aptera will fade in the next 5 years and Edison2 will prevail.....It's already happening...Aptera wasn't even mentioned in the NYT article. Professional bias? No doubt. But mark my words, that small action is the first one and only the beginning of the dismissal, or at least the insignificance, that will become Aptera.I'll put down a couple of thousand dollars deposit on an electric Edison - in a heart beat. When I looked over Edison2's site and video for the first time I knew: I had a clear instinct, that I'd stumbled on not only an Xprize winner, but an automotive platform design that'll be -- at a minimum -- incorporated into whatever car we're driving in the near future.

[oldmotorhead]

none of the cars that won are anywhere near as practical or real world as the Aptera.They should have gone ahead and built it as a series hybrid motorcycle as originally intended. There are lots of specialty bike shops that are doing great. The right product at the right price would have created it's own path. Now megalasellia gets to dictate what the everyman vehicle will be...again. The WHO got it wrong. We get fooled again and again and again.
Don't wait build your own if you want one its the only way it will happen.

life sucks and then you die

[virtualeric]

none of the cars that won are anywhere near as practical or real world as the Aptera. That's because they were made to win money more than to look pretty and production-ready. Aptera ain't holding a check. The Xtracer is the only one that did both, and Aptera, though they accomplished a solid middle-of-the-pack showing, simply didn't have the efficiency.

Onto practical and real-world: Aptera is a "production-ready" car, and their driving tour (you get to drive it) will demonstrate that. But real-world and practical are about viable/affordable production as much as a finished production-intent car.

Now that Xprize is over, the next "prize-winner" for me is the team that gets the most affordable, most efficient vehicle into mass production (implying of course nothing impractical or non-real-world would be mass produced). In fact, that should be another Xprize right there...validation is great, but there needs to be an even larger push/event to get the tech/platforms to mass production.

[PatQ562]

Aptera wasn't even mentioned in the NYT article.
I can't argue that Aptera has dug their own grave, being years late to market, but for what it's worth, a nice Aptera picture placement catches the eye in this month's issue of Popular Science, in their "Japanese Efficiency Predictions" article (of all places). It's actually a nice angle for the SO-1 (three quarters rear shot).
Of course Aptera doesn't need publicity, they need delivery. Just seeing the cars is all it takes to create sensational brand awareness.
Pat Q

[Rhodomel]

Well, according to the CNET Report today, all finalists are entitled for DOE loan. The Aptera is a finalist, so perhaps they can get a loan approved for building a manufacturing plant.

But, the paperwork bureaucracy is horrendously massive. They will have to hire real professional loan proposal writers or companies.

There is only one report that I come across that Aptera is a finalist, it is a caption in the photo:

http://news.cnet.com/2300-11128_3-10004871-6.html?tag=mncol

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2010/09/16/shakedown_104.jpg
September 16, 2010 10:50 AM PDT

The Aptera 2e, from team Aptera led by Marques McCammon, was a finalist in the side-by-side two-seater category. The vehicle has a top speed of 90 mph and includes among its key sponsors battery maker A123 systems, and Pratt & Miller Engineering.

Photo by Aptera

Caption by Candace Lombardi


Read more: http://news.cnet.com/2300-11128_3-10004871-6.html?tag=mncol#ixzz0zjhuPrdl

[chasmccl]

You are a troglodyte!

Charlie McClain, PhD, JD

[chasmccl]

When I looked over Edison2's site and video for the first time I knew: I had a clear instinct, that I'd stumbled on not only an Xprize winner, but an automotive platform design that'll be -- at a minimum -- incorporated into whatever car we're driving in the near future.

I should have quoted you and said YOU ARE A HUGE TROGLODYTE!

Charlie McClain, PhD, JD

[NeilBlanchard]

I don't see how the Li-ion Wave II is any less practical than the Aptera 2e?

[JustWilliam]

I should have quoted you and said YOU ARE A HUGE TROGLODYTE!

Charlie McClain, PhD, JD
HUGE TROGLODYTE?

Eric?

I'm terribly curious, but also a bit slow. Would you care to elaborate? It looks like an angry sentence, but perhaps you intended it to be humorous. Hopefully it's topical. So would you let me in on what the sentence means?

Peace,
William

[Matthijs]

...all finalists are entitled for DOE loan...

Now this is a very interesting tidbit of info. Maybe Aptera already knew this and MM came up with his "mission accomplished" statement.

[oldmotorhead]

As to practicality making for marketability. "If wishes were horses then beggars would _ _ _ _". Lots of us rode to work, to the store, went on vacation, upon less than practical vehicles. I remember seeing a '32 Ford Coupe with a 750 hp Chevy engine parked in the same lot as my dirt bike at work, practical.. right? Well. I thought an air conditioned motorcycle that I could throw a surfboard or 13 bags of groceries in the back of, and "take my rider by my side" as the song says, would be a neat way to slide into the Turn of the Century. But instead of a real alternative, FUN, and, by the way, get it to the marketplace and let people decide what to do with it vehicle. They had to go and try to make it into a Nissan leaf. Hey Guys, people with LOTS more money than you are already doing that. Our loss and another great idea dies.
Practical means "git 'er done"

[evmavin]

From a rules perspective I think this competition is a joke, it's more an exercise in what small companies can do. I thought these vehicles were supposed to be production intent. The Edison car is so far from a marketable vehicle let alone a moderately safe one that it will never be sold. I would bet that none of these vehicles make it to any affordable mass production, even 300 made. The Aptera had a chance but incompetent people like MM who are HIGHLY UNDER QUALIFIED in their positions will always keep a viable product down let alone one that faces challenges. If Aptera hired a true professional rather than everyone form the buddy / kiss butt system things would be getting done and GROSS mistakes would be prevented. This is all about competency and the huge lack of it running through the system at Aptera. It's good few people know about Aptera as they give EVs a bad name.

[lapwing]

From a rules perspective I think this competition is a joke, it's more an exercise in what small companies can do. I thought these vehicles were supposed to be production intent. The Edison car is so far from a marketable vehicle let alone a moderately safe one that it will never be sold. I would bet that none of these vehicles make it to any affordable mass production, even 300 made. The Aptera had a chance but incompetent people like MM who are HIGHLY UNDER QUALIFIED in their positions will always keep a viable product down let alone one that faces challenges. If Aptera hired a true professional rather than everyone form the buddy / kiss butt system things would be getting done and GROSS mistakes would be prevented. This is all about competency and the huge lack of it running through the system at Aptera. It's good few people know about Aptera as they give EVs a bad name.

Right now most people think - electric vehicle = Tesla. I am completely confident that there are enough of us out there to ensure better than Tesla sales for the Edsion 3 electric should it go ahead.

Who the hell cares about mass production. Get the bloody thing in production, refine and define it. We will buy it! If it's good eneough so will others, and the market will take care or the rest.

With it's minimalist approach a 5000 batch of parts should put a glider on the road for under $12000. Add a 7-15KWhr battery pack, and motor/inverter package and you have a cutting edge commuter that is totally hot!

[Rhodomel]

Now this is a very interesting tidbit of info. Maybe Aptera already knew this and MM came up with his "mission accomplished" statement.

And just the same, the Loan will not come begging at them to take. They will have to apply for it. Being a finalist, and their MPGe verified, they should have a good chance of getting it. The only way to bungle this up is to have another kiss butt ol' buddy write the funding proposal for their loan. I have to reiterate that they need to hire professionals to fill out the application and provide documentation satisfying the loan criteria.

[oldmotorhead]

kinda makes that old urban legend about the big car company buying out the great little high mileage gadget just to keep it out of the hands of the masses a little more...shall we say... credible

[mantraman]

Does anyone know the company status currently? I have tried to contact customer service both online and by phone. I find it odd that the company does not reply or answer the phone.

I am needing to refund my deposit at this time. Does anyone have any advise on how to do this since Aptera is not responding?

[danieloneil01]

I really dislike the current upper management of Aptera. The top guy sucks!

But do I think we should be talking about "Aftera"?

Absolutely Not!
And here's why.
So I was looking at the official X prise MPG figures for the final round, and I find that Aptera scored 164.3mpg equivelent.

Among the cars I would want to own, only two others are close, Lion motors Wave, 171.4mpg -e and RaceAbout at 142.9 mpg-e.

As much as I love the Edison 2 design, the combustion engine on the edge, barely making it to 100mpg, (95.6-108mpg) with very little possibility of production, doesn't cut it for me. (had Edison gone electric, I feel they still could have won, and I have no doubt they would have done been the best at everything, and I would be standing in line.

But given what we have out there of the three top scorers in the electrics, I would most want to own the Aptera.

The pack on the RaceAbout is to big and expensive, and too $100 000 Tesla like.

By comparison the Lion and the Aptera are right in the "zone" of perfect. Yes even the SO-1 "piglet".

I sure hope both go into production.


So Aptera isn't the most fuel efficient motorcycle/automobile ever? NO WAY!

[JustWilliam]

Does anyone know the company status currently? I have tried to contact customer service both online and by phone. I find it odd that the company does not reply or answer the phone.

I am needing to refund my deposit at this time. Does anyone have any advise on how to do this since Aptera is not responding?
Hi Mantraman!

As far as getting your deposit returned, email both cancelres@aptera.com and sales@aptera.com to cancel. It will be easiest if you made your deposit using an account that you still have active. The process is not as timely or easy as it should be, but I have yet to hear of anyone NOT getting their deposit returned. You can read about the experience of other former deposite holders here- http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=2036

As far as the status of "the company", it has been run (into the ground) and promoted (disastrously) by a trio of cronies who's "Detroit Credentials" include bankruptcy and financial fraud. It is highly likely that you made your reservation based on a different car and a different company than you might think.

This is a forum that formed out of respect and desire for the Aptera. But the honest truth is that the most productive and active members of this forum are at the very LEAST aware of Aptera's current deficits or "problems", which are discouraging, factual, and NUMEROUS. The "future" of this company, in it's relatively short history, has never looked so bleak...

If the $500 is something you can easily spare to support a dream, I humbly suggest you hang on to your reservation, and then treat this forum as the ultimate resource to independently track the history of Aptera from inception to present. Every event is recognized, researched and debated, and you can reach your own conclusions. But if you consider your deposit to represent a specific product to be sold to you by a specific date, it is time to withdraw your cash and invest elsewhere.

Peace,
William

[evmavin]

No way would I buy an Edison 2 and very few would except a fringe few. Forget mass production, it will never happen and making a few dozen cars is a bit silly. Go ahead and throw mud but this thing is unrefined, striped down and ugly. I still don't see how this would even be remotely close to production intent. I would buy a used NMG first. It seems the x-prise had to bend all the rules or risk having no cars. Its fun to tinker and have events like this but thinking any of these will make it to a marketable product seems overly optimistic. The Aptera had a chance but it's slim to none now. Perhaps they will sell a kit for the few die hard fans.

[G-Jet]

LOL! Aptera lost to, wait for it....

an Aptera RIP-OFF! oh, the irony.

G

[Stroke]

I havn't totally given up on Aptera, I don't need the $1000 right now, so I'll wait for the next newsletter. Aptera was in the competition right up to the run off of 50 laps, they only did 18 at breakdown. I am amazed that Aptera had not already proved the car roadworthy to at least 50 laps if not 5 million laps. Anybody know exactly what the mechanical breakdown was? maybe a fluke? That the car that won was a pure ICE with a tiny 250cc engine is ironic.:logo:

[IanO]

I havn't totally given up on Aptera, I don't need the $1000 right now, so I'll wait for the next newsletter. Aptera was in the competition right up to the run off of 50 laps, they only did 18 at breakdown. I am amazed that Aptera had not already proved the car roadworthy to at least 50 laps if not 5 million laps. Anybody know exactly what the mechanical breakdown was? maybe a fluke? That the car that won was a pure ICE with a tiny 250cc engine is ironic.:logo:

Both Aptera and Li-Ion Motors suffered the same fault at the first chicane of the tiebreaker race: regen braking overfilling a full battery, . Li-Ion's driver quickly reset a circuit breaker and was able to continue the race (nerves of steel!). Aptera however suffered more severe damage to its battery pack, slowing, taking a pit stop, and then eventually limping to a halt.

[virtualeric]

Both Aptera and Li-Ion Motors suffered the same fault at the first chicane of the tiebreaker race: regen braking overfilling a full battery, . Li-Ion's driver quickly reset a circuit breaker and was able to continue the race (nerves of steel!). Aptera however suffered more severe damage to its battery pack, slowing, taking a pit stop, and then eventually limping to a halt.
Were you there?

[palmer_md]

Both Aptera and Li-Ion Motors suffered the same fault at the first chicane of the tiebreaker race: regen braking overfilling a full battery, . Li-Ion's driver quickly reset a circuit breaker and was able to continue the race (nerves of steel!). Aptera however suffered more severe damage to its battery pack, slowing, taking a pit stop, and then eventually limping to a halt.

That is simply not possible on a level racetrack. You cannot gain more energy back in regen than it took to get up to speed. If they accelerated from a stop to the first corner, they could not have put more into the pack than then used getting to the first corner.

edit: tripping a breaker is possible. Damaging the pack from overcharge is what is not possible.

[lapwing]

That is simply not possible on a level racetrack. You cannot gain more energy back in regen than it took to get up to speed. If they accelerated from a stop to the first corner, they could not have put more into the pack than then used getting to the first corner.

edit: tripping a breaker is possible. Damaging the pack from overcharge is what is not possible.

Agreed that regen could not have caused it. Far more likely it was the result of attempting to maximise performance and they went over the edge.

Over zelous inverter power parameters. Trying to charge the batteries to the max allowable voltages, to squeeze in another few hundred watt hours.

If you move outside tried and tested parameters, batteries and breakers can be very unforgiving. Take charging for instance. Even with a really good BMS cells develop slight differences in capacity. By reprograming the BMS to sqeeze in a touch more energy - voltages, even just a little bit higher, a few cells could get damaged, and when you come to push things on the discharge, those cells can cause problems, like overheating. It really doesn't take much.

In practice, being conservative in charging and discharging parameters, means for production vehicles this is normally never a problem.

[organic]

From comments i was reading, I was thinking Aptera reconfigured its pack for the last race?

[virtualeric]

I was there and talked to Li Ion's driver Tuesday evening, and Davis one of the team members that afternoon. Li Ion doubled checked their regen (and I'm assuming their battery safety systems) before the race. They dialed the regen back quite a bit from where it was for the lane avoidance test (all the electrics dialed regen to max to get braking benefit).

They kept their eye on the ball. Aptera overlooked something and did not survive the impact of regen on that first chicane whereas Li Ion managed a warm reboot in the middle of the chicane.

This is a perfect example of the focus that comes from more team members having a racing backgrounds which I believe is the case with Li Ion vs Aptera. If not, then it's certainly a case of pro-active preparation and obsession with the details of winning vs whatever aptera was doing.

[Stunt Driver]

That is simply not possible on a level racetrack. You cannot gain more energy back in regen than it took to get up to speed.

not necesseraily they had pack at 101%.
But imagine dischanging pack slowly at 100A per say for 1 minute, and then trying to dump 1000A for 6 seconds? What will it do to voltage on pack?

So not knowing details, i wouldn't say some damage is not possible.

[palmer_md]

not necesseraily they had pack at 101%.
But imagine dischanging pack slowly at 100A per say for 1 minute, and then trying to dump 1000A for 6 seconds? What will it do to voltage on pack?

So not knowing details, i wouldn't say some damage is not possible.

Like I said. You will never be able to put back 100% of what you just took out. Your example puts back 100%.

Secondly the voltage is monitored by the controller and there are settings to keep the controller from Regenerating as the battery voltage rises. I've attached an example of how most every controller works (as far as available settings). This particular example is from Azure Dynamics, but the Remy unit should have the same settings at a minimum.

There are protections that also limit the power out as the voltage drops.

309

[wilsodo]

I was there and talked to Li Ion's driver Tuesday evening, and Davis one of the team members that afternoon. Li Ion doubled checked their regen (and I'm assuming their battery safety systems) before the race. They dialed the regen back quite a bit from where it was for the lane avoidance test (all the electrics dialed regen to max to get braking benefit).

They kept their eye on the ball. Aptera overlooked something and did not survive the impact of regen on that first chicane whereas Li Ion managed a warm reboot in the middle of the chicane.

This is a perfect example of the focus that comes from more team members having a racing backgrounds which I believe is the case with Li Ion vs Aptera. If not, then it's certainly a case of pro-active preparation and obsession with the details of winning vs whatever aptera was doing.

Good point. Who calls engineering decisions at Aptera? Unless you are Steve Jobs, CEOs and marketing managers generally defer engineering and design to the smarter directors of those departments. That is why they were hired.
Second guessing and micro managing employees is classic bad business practice and not uncommon in the car business. Executive spin normally deflects attention though. This may partly explain why PW said they were unprepared for the event.
We've been assuming PW or MM are to blame for the enduring misadventures of the wingless bird, but maybe they are just covering for their inept engineers and designers? How admirable of them.

In contrast, Oliver Kuttner (OK) likely deferred to his good people who conferred with their good people.

[Grendal]

Good point. Who calls engineering decisions at Aptera? Unless you are Steve Jobs, CEOs and marketing managers generally defer engineering and design to the smarter directors of those departments. That is why they were hired.
Second guessing and micro managing employees is classic bad business practice and not uncommon in the car business. Executive spin normally deflects attention though. This may partly explain why PW said they were unprepared for the event.
We've been assuming PW or MM are to blame for the enduring misadventures of the wingless bird, but maybe they are just covering for their inept engineers and designers? How admirable of them.


I think the blame can be placed on PBW shoulders. Here is an excerpt from Virtualeric's commentary while at the X-prize and his impression of the Aptera team:

Whatever criticism any outsider carries for a team is far less than what I've heard teams critique about their rigs -- except aptera of course. Everyone had a brief PR spin for their platform regardless of weaknesses, but with aptera if felt like every second (when MM or PW were in sight or earshot) was a desperate attempt to spin. There's a full-ditch effort to control every aspect of their appearance -- the tent (engineer/mechanic cage) is a perfect example of that.


My conclusion: Apteras focus under PBW is not on putting out a great product. Their focus is on controlling information, covering their ass, and image. None of those priorities are about making a lightweight, efficient, aerodynamic vehicle. Under that kind of management it would be easy to make errors because you're spending most of your time looking over your shoulder and not focused on the job in front of you. And because management is telling you to lie to everyone around you, you can't help but create an environment of finger pointing and lies.

[PatQ562]

But imagine dischanging pack slowly at 100A per say for 1 minute, and then trying to dump 1000A for 6 seconds? What will it do to voltage on pack?
As Palmer_md noted, motor controllers are SUPPOSED to avoid overcharging the battery during regen, but the threshold is probably adjustable and it appears Aptera went too far out on thin ice trying for more performance. I'm unclear why this should cause breakers to trip -- why are there breakers, anyway? The controller limits current, requiring only a fault fuse for catastrophic breakdowns. Maybe if an overvoltage did occur, they blew a phase on the 3-phase controller? This would result in very poor and lossy limping along until they gave up.
Pat Q

[randyd]

As Palmer_md noted, motor controllers are SUPPOSED to avoid overcharging the battery during regen, but the threshold is probably adjustable and it appears Aptera went too far out on thin ice trying for more performance. I'm unclear why this should cause breakers to trip -- why are there breakers, anyway? The controller limits current, requiring only a fault fuse for catastrophic breakdowns. Maybe if an overvoltage did occur, they blew a phase on the 3-phase controller? This would result in very poor and lossy limping along until they gave up.
Pat Q

I'm with Stunt Driver on this. My supposition since first reported was that this is a problem of energy rates, not energy totals, and the word "breaker" was a simplification. After all, a breaker is designed to "break" and then get reset. If it was a breaker, they would have reset it then finished the race. They didn't finish the race so it must not have been a breaker.

Whether it was literally a circuit breaker, or one phase in the controller, or a small wire that vaporized, we all know the effects. And I doubt we will ever have enough truth about the incident to matter.

[Rhodomel]

Whether it was literally a circuit breaker, or one phase in the controller, or a small wire that vaporized, we all know the effects. And I doubt we will ever have enough truth about the incident to matter.

Things like these should not be happening to production ready vehicles. So Aptera has still a very long ways to go before production even if given $200 Million from DOE.

[virtualeric]

Things like these should not be happening to production ready vehicles. So Aptera has still a very long ways to go before production even if given $200 Million from DOE.Production-ready vehicles won't have battery protection disengaged like the Xprize car did. All the protection is there in their "production-ready" car, but most teams pulled off a lot of safeties, otherwise they wouldn't have survived Xprize tests. Unfortunately, on race day, Aptera had pulled off a few too many, didn't get a few critical ones turned back on, had the solar panel on and dumping into a full pack, and probably didn't dial back the regen brakes enough.

Other teams didn't make that many mistakes, and the results speak for themselves.